1 1 NO. 90-CI-06033 JEFFERSON CIRCUIT COURT DIVISION ONE 2 3 4 JOYCE FENTRESS, et al PLAINTIFFS 5 6 VS TRANSCRIPT OF THE PROCEEDINGS 7 8 9 SHEA COMMUNICATIONS, et al DEFENDANTS 10 11 *** 12 13 14 WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 28, 1994 15 VOLUME III 16 17 * * * 18 19 20 21 _____________________________________________________________. REPORTER: JULIA K. McBRIDE 22 Coulter, Shay, McBride & Rice 1221 Starks Building 23 455 South Fourth Avenue Louisville, Kentucky 40202 24 (502) 582-1627 FAX: (502) 587-6299 25 2 1 2 I N D E X 3 4 Voir Dire...............................................4-273 5 Reporter's Certificate.................................. 274 6 7 * * * 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 1 2 A P P E A R A N C E S 3 FOR THE PLAINTIFFS: 4 PAUL L. SMITH 5 Suite 745 Campbell Center II 6 8150 North Central Expressway Dallas, Texas 75206 7 NANCY ZETTLER 8 1405 West Norwell Lane Schaumburg, Illinois 60193 9 10 FOR THE DEFENDANT: 11 EDWARD H. STOPHER Boehl, Stopher & Graves 12 2300 Providian Center Louisville, Kentucky 40202 13 JOE C. FREEMAN, JR. 14 Freeman & Hawkins 4000 One Peachtree Center 15 303 Peachtree Street, N.E. Atlanta, Georgia 30308 16 17 * * * 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 4 1 The Transcript of the Proceedings, taken before 2 The Honorable John Potter in Room 148, Old Jail Office 3 Building, Louisville, Kentucky, commencing on Wednesday, 4 September 28, 1994, at approximately 9:10 A.M., said 5 proceedings occurred as follows: 6 7 * * * 8 9 JUDGE POTTER: You're Mr. Ackermann? 10 JUROR NO. 26: Yes, Your Honor. 11 JUDGE POTTER: I'll remind you you're still 12 under oath, sir. These lawyers may want to ask you a few 13 questions. 14 JUROR NO. 26: Okay. 15 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith, why don't we start -- 16 I forget which one was on deck yesterday, but why don't we 17 start with you. 18 MR. SMITH: Good morning, Mr. Ackermann. 19 JUROR NO. 26: Good morning. 20 MR. SMITH: As I understand it, you are a hog 21 buyer. Have you done that -- basically worked with livestock 22 all your life? 23 JUROR NO. 26: Yes, sir. 24 MR. SMITH: Do you live -- since I'm not from 25 here, do you live in a rural area? 5 1 JUROR NO. 26: Yes, sir. 2 MR. SMITH: And have -- 3 JUROR NO. 26: No. I live in the city. I'm 4 sorry. 5 MR. SMITH: In the city. Live in the city but 6 keep your hogs -- oh, you're a broker? 7 JUROR NO. 26: No. I buy for Monfort Company. 8 I'm a buyer for Monfort Corporation and they slaughter hogs. 9 MR. SMITH: I see. I see. 10 JUROR NO. 26: I'm only licensed to buy 11 slaughtered -- the hogs I buy has to be slaughtered. I can't 12 resell. 13 MR. SMITH: Mr. Ackermann, we have your 14 questionnaire that you filled out here, and in Question 5 I 15 asked whether or not you were of the opinion that the Food and 16 Drug Administration was doing a good job or bad job in 17 protecting consumer health and safety, and you have yes here. 18 Did you mean to indicate you thought they were doing a good 19 job or a bad job? 20 JUROR NO. 26: Yes, sir. Good job. 21 MR. SMITH: All right. Are you of the opinion, 22 sir, that the Food and Drug Administration tests 23 pharmaceutical products themselves? 24 JUROR NO. 26: I think the government is in on 25 that, too, aren't they? I know they run all kinds of tests, 6 1 but it has to be approved by the food and -- 2 MR. SMITH: What's your understanding with who 3 actually runs the tests, the FDA or the drug manufacturer? 4 JUROR NO. 26: I thought the drug manufacturer 5 did it, then it has to be approved by the FDA. 6 MR. SMITH: All right. Do you realize that FDA 7 doesn't do independent testing of the product in the normal 8 drug approval process? 9 JUROR NO. 26: You say they don't? 10 MR. SMITH: Yeah. Did you know that? 11 JUROR NO. 26: No, sir. 12 MR. SMITH: It says here in answer to No. 7 that 13 your daughter works for a pharmaceutical company. 14 JUROR NO. 26: Yes. She's a sales 15 representative. 16 MR. SMITH: She's a sales rep for who? 17 JUROR NO. 26: Berlex. 18 MR. SMITH: Do you know any products that they 19 make? 20 JUROR NO. 26: I really don't. 21 MR. SMITH: Is your daughter married? 22 JUROR NO. 26: Yes, sir. 23 MR. SMITH: And where does she live? 24 JUROR NO. 26: 30 -- I don't know the exact 25 number. I think it's 3709... 7 1 MR. SMITH: Does she live here in Louisville? 2 JUROR NO. 26: Yeah. 3 MR. SMITH: Does she call on doctors? 4 JUROR NO. 26: Bramhurst Road? She just moved 5 there about a month ago; that's the reason I don't know. 6 MR. SMITH: Does she call on doctors and explain 7 the products that Berlex makes? 8 JUROR NO. 26: I'm sure that's her job. And she 9 travels in Kentucky and goes to Bowling Green and I think 10 sometimes Owensboro. 11 MR. SMITH: How long has she been doing that? 12 JUROR NO. 26: I believe it's about five years. 13 MR. SMITH: Has she discussed with you what type 14 of training she's had in doing that? 15 JUROR NO. 26: Well, no, not really. You know, 16 she'd say, "Well, I had to go to Cincinnati for tests." And 17 she had to go to Los Angeles for some kind of meeting here 18 awhile back, and I think she told me she's got one coming up 19 she has to go to Dallas. Other than that, I don't know what 20 she did. 21 MR. SMITH: Does the fact that she works for a 22 pharmaceutical company and Eli Lilly is a defendant here, do 23 you think that would influence your judgment in this case, Mr. 24 Ackermann? 25 JUROR NO. 26: Well, I really didn't know. It 8 1 was -- I thought about it. And, you know, I really can't say 2 for sure. I thought maybe it would, but then I thought, well, 3 I don't know if it would or not, so... 4 MR. SMITH: There may be some testimony in this 5 case about the function of customer service representatives 6 and the people that go out -- and they're called detail 7 people, I think -- that advise doctors concerning new products 8 being developed by a drug company. Do you think you'd have a 9 leaning in favor of these type of people and this group of 10 people individually? 11 JUROR NO. 26: Well, I think it depends on, you 12 know, I don't know if it just -- if there's just a little bit 13 of doubt in my mind which way the verdict should go or 14 something, you know, it might have some, you know. 15 MR. SMITH: You think that you'd start in on 16 this case with a little bit closer to the drug company's side 17 than the other side in this case? 18 JUROR NO. 26: Well, I don't know if I'd do that 19 or not; no, I wouldn't say that. But, you know, it just 20 depends on what I'd have to -- the decision I'd have to make 21 and what have you. I just don't really know. 22 MR. SMITH: I see that somebody in your family 23 has been under a doctor's care for depression? 24 JUROR NO. 26: I didn't go into detail on that, 25 but I had a sister-in-law that committed suicide, and it's 9 1 been 20 years ago. And then my wife has been to a 2 psychiatrist but she wasn't taking any medicine, just for, you 3 know, speech therapy -- not speech therapy, or whatever they 4 call it. 5 MR. FREEMAN: Psychotherapy? 6 MS. ZETTLER: Psychotherapy? 7 JUROR NO. 26: Yeah. 8 MR. SMITH: There's going to be a lot of 9 discussion about suicide and depression in this case, Mr. 10 Ackermann. Do you think that's going to bring back memories 11 that are going to influence your verdict in this case? What 12 we're looking for, Mr. Ackermann, is somebody that will give 13 both sides an even break here; somebody without any 14 preconceived ideas, without any particular experience in this 15 area. We've just got to look to you, and you've got to be the 16 one that tells us. If you've got some doubt, this is your 17 opportunity to let us know. 18 JUROR NO. 26: Well, that's the reason I put 19 that in there about the pharmaceutical company. And I do have 20 a little doubt that maybe I could make the right decision. I 21 really do. 22 MR. SMITH: All right. You also have three 23 doctors and three nurses in your family? 24 JUROR NO. 26: Yeah. 25 MR. SMITH: It says here that you might have a 10 1 problem, in fact, in making a right judgment if you were here 2 in the jury? 3 JUROR NO. 26: Yeah. 4 MR. SMITH: And you think that based on all of 5 these experiences, and we appreciate you telling us about 6 this, that probably your feelings would spill over into your 7 verdict in this case? 8 JUROR NO. 26: Very possible. 9 MR. SMITH: That's all I have. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher? 11 MR. STOPHER: No questions, Your Honor. Thank 12 you, Mr. Ackermann. 13 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Ackermann, I'm going to 14 excuse you for the rest of today and ask you to come back at 15 9:00 tomorrow morning. I'm going to give you the admonition 16 I've given you before and it's extremely important. Do not 17 talk to anybody about this case. Do not let anybody talk to 18 you, including other jurors and the press. You're excused 19 till 9:00 tomorrow morning. 20 JUROR NO. 26: Thank you-all very much. 21 JUDGE POTTER: Anybody have any motions they 22 want to make? 23 MR. SMITH: Move to strike Mr. Ackermann, Your 24 Honor. 25 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher? 11 1 MR. STOPHER: No objection, Judge. 2 JUDGE POTTER: We ought to put a little light 3 under the table so that when Mr. Stopher or Mr. Smith have 4 reached the point where they're not going to object, you can 5 just push the button, the light will come on and everybody 6 will know it's time to go on. 7 MR. SMITH: After yesterday I didn't know how 8 far I needed to go. 9 JUDGE POTTER: This is Number 135. You're Mr. 10 Mark Bowling? 11 JUROR NO. 135: Yes, Your Honor. 12 JUDGE POTTER: I'll remind you you're still 13 under oath, Mr. Bowling. These gentlemen would like to ask 14 you some questions. 15 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher? 16 MR. STOPHER: Mr. Bowling, my name is Ed 17 Stopher. I just wanted to find the questionnaire here a 18 second because I had some follow-up questions based on the 19 questionnaire. You indicated, sir, that your wife has taken 20 an antidepressant medication at some time. I don't want to 21 ask you anything about your wife any more than you want to 22 have to answer, but I think you can understand the reason why 23 we need to know that in the context of this case. Could you 24 give us some details about what antidepressant she's taken and 25 how long she's taken it? 12 1 JUROR NO. 135: The first time she -- it was 2 prescribed to her was after the birth of our youngest child. 3 It had something to do with the pregnancy. She said it was 4 common to be depressed after that. And she was prescribed a 5 prescription and I asked her about that, and it wasn't Prozac 6 but it was -- she didn't recall the name of it, but she didn't 7 even finish taking the prescription. But it was just that 8 one. And I think there may have been another time she went 9 again and I think the doctor maybe even gave her, like, some 10 samples. I don't recall the name of those, either, but it was 11 pre... 12 MR. STOPHER: All right. How long ago do you 13 think this was, the pregnancy? You can probably remember 14 the -- 15 JUROR NO. 135: Probably about -- my son's about 16 two and a half years old, so probably two years ago. 17 MR. STOPHER: It was during pregnancy or after 18 pregnancy? 19 JUROR NO. 135: No. It was after the baby. 20 MR. STOPHER: After the birth? Okay, sir. Has 21 she been under the care of a psychiatrist before or after 22 that? 23 JUROR NO. 135: No. 24 Q. This was just her obstetrician or gynecologist 25 that was working with her? 13 1 JUROR NO. 135: I think so. 2 MR. STOPHER: Did she have a good or a bad 3 experience with that antidepressant? 4 JUROR NO. 135: No. It was -- 5 MR. STOPHER: Went like it was supposed to go, 6 as far as you know? 7 JUROR NO. 135: Yes. 8 MR. STOPHER: Okay. And on occasions since then 9 someone may have given her some samples to take? 10 JUROR NO. 135: That may have been maybe a year, 11 year and a half ago. I'm not sure. 12 MR. STOPHER: Okay. All right. Was she having 13 a problem with depression then? 14 JUROR NO. 135: Yes. 15 MR. STOPHER: Was it still after the birth of 16 the son or unrelated to that? 17 JUROR NO. 135: Yes. I'm not for sure what it 18 was related to. Maybe marriage problems or something of that 19 nature, I'm not for sure. 20 MR. STOPHER: Again, I don't want to inquire, 21 but this case is about depression and it's about 22 antidepressants. But has that experience that you have had 23 through your wife given you certain insights or views on 24 either the mental illness of depression or on antidepressants 25 as a treatment for those that you're going to carry into the 14 1 jury room to decide this case, sir? 2 JUROR NO. 135: I don't think it would. I don't 3 see why it would. 4 MR. STOPHER: In this case, sir, the contention 5 is going to be that Prozac, which is an antidepressant, made 6 Mr. Wesbecker become homicidal and want to kill people. Would 7 your wife's experience with the antidepressant tend to make 8 you want to believe that claim more than otherwise? 9 JUROR NO. 135: No. 10 MR. STOPHER: I notice, sir, that you own 11 several weapons, including a 30/30 and -- I'm not sure -- 12 Marlin rifle? 13 JUROR NO. 135: Yes. It's a hunting rifle. 14 MR. STOPHER: A 50-caliber CVA muzzle loaded 15 rifle. I'm not even familiar with that one. 16 JUROR NO. 135: It's just an old-time rifle that 17 would be loaded -- 18 MR. STOPHER: It's one of the ones with a ram 19 rod? 20 JUROR NO. 135: Right. 21 MR. STOPHER: I take it that you own these to 22 hunt, primarily? 23 JUROR NO. 135: Yes, sir. 24 MR. STOPHER: You're a hunter? 25 JUROR NO. 135: Yes, sir. 15 1 MR. STOPHER: You don't use them for target 2 shooting or any kind of sharp-shooting competition, 3 riflemanship or anything like that? 4 JUROR NO. 135: No. 5 MR. STOPHER: Do you know of -- and only you can 6 answer this, sir, but if you're selected to sit on this jury 7 and you go back to the jury room and there are 11 other people 8 in the room and you're trying to decide the issues in this 9 case, and you close your eyes and you're trying to decide 10 which way to vote, is there something about you or about what 11 you think that's going to make you want to cast your vote for 12 one side or the other, that somebody has an edge in your mind 13 on some issue in this case that the other side does not have? 14 JUROR NO. 135: No. I'd have to wait and hear 15 the evidence. 16 MR. STOPHER: Okay. But you don't go into this 17 with any idea that one side or the other ought to win or lose? 18 JUROR NO. 135: No. 19 MR. STOPHER: Those are all the questions I 20 have, Judge. 21 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith? 22 MR. SMITH: Mr. Bowling, there are several 23 different classifications of antidepressants, one is called an 24 SSRI, which Prozac belongs to, and one is called a tricyclic 25 antidepressant, and there's another class that I can't 16 1 pronounce. 2 Do you know which class of antidepressants it 3 was that your wife was taking, even though you don't know the 4 name? 5 JUROR NO. 135: No. I don't know what it would 6 be. I guess it would be a mild type. It didn't seem that bad 7 to me and she didn't have to take it very long. 8 MR. SMITH: As I understand it, she didn't even 9 finish the prescription? 10 JUROR NO. 135: That's correct. 11 MR. SMITH: Are you of the impression, Mr. 12 Bowling, that the Food and Drug Administration does 13 independent testing of prescription medications before they're 14 released for sale? 15 JUROR NO. 135: Do I... 16 MR. SMITH: I'll say that again. Is it your 17 understanding that the United States FDA does independent 18 testing on prescription products before they're released for 19 sale to the public? 20 JUROR NO. 135: I believe they do. 21 MR. SMITH: Would the fact that they don't -- 22 the evidence in this case will be that the FDA did not test 23 itself Prozac, but relied on Lilly to inform them of any 24 testing that might have been done affect your judgment in this 25 case in any way? 17 1 JUROR NO. 135: I don't think so. 2 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Mr. Bowling. 3 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Bowling, I'm going to excuse 4 you till 9:00 tomorrow morning. I got you all the way down 5 here for five minutes. You should be lucky your name begins 6 with a B; if it was a Z you'd be here all day. At 9:00 7 tomorrow morning be over in the jury assembly area where you 8 were. I give you the same admonition as I gave you before. 9 Do not let anybody talk with you about the case, including 10 other jurors or newspapers or whatnot and do not form any 11 opinions on it. You can stand in recess till 9:00 tomorrow 12 morning. 13 JUROR NO. 135: Thank you. 14 JUDGE POTTER: You're Mr. William Brown; is that 15 right, sir? 16 JUROR NO. 120: That's right. 17 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Would you have a seat, 18 sir. I'll remind you you're still under oath. These 19 attorneys may want to ask you a few questions. Mr. Smith? 20 MR. SMITH: Mr. Brown, do I understand it that 21 you have had Prozac yourself? 22 JUROR NO. 120: Yes. 23 MR. SMITH: And you had a good experience with 24 Prozac? 25 JUROR NO. 120: I'd say fair. 18 1 MR. SMITH: Do you have a high opinion of Prozac 2 as a drug? 3 JUROR NO. 120: I don't have much of an opinion 4 either way. 5 MR. SMITH: Well, based on what you have -- 6 JUROR NO. 120: Well, based on what I have, I 7 think it did me some good. 8 MR. SMITH: All right. And do you think what 9 you know about Prozac would give you some edge on other 10 members of the jury in this case, Mr. Brown? 11 JUROR NO. 120: I don't know. 12 MR. SMITH: You think that might influence your 13 judgment in this case? 14 JUROR NO. 120: Possible. 15 MR. SMITH: That you'd come in with a more 16 favorable opinion of Prozac than the ordinary juror that 17 hasn't taken Prozac? 18 JUROR NO. 120: Yes. I probably would. 19 MR. SMITH: Do you think that that would affect 20 your judgment in this case? 21 JUROR NO. 120: Very possible. 22 MR. SMITH: In your jury deliberations? 23 JUROR NO. 120: Possible. 24 MR. SMITH: And certainly we're all the product 25 of our experiences, but do you think that that's going to 19 1 influence you in your deliberations as a juror in this case? 2 JUROR NO. 120: It's possible. 3 MR. SMITH: Probable? 4 JUROR NO. 120: Probable. 5 MR. SMITH: All right. As I understand it, you 6 work with a man or have a good friend by the name of Mr. 7 Campfield? 8 JUROR NO. 120: Yes. 9 MR. SMITH: And he works where, sir? 10 JUROR NO. 120: He works down in Riverport. 11 MR. SMITH: Riverport Imaging? 12 JUROR NO. 120: (Nods head affirmatively). 13 MR. SMITH: Is it your understanding that the 14 same man that owns Riverport Imaging owned Standard Gravure? 15 JUROR NO. 120: I don't know who owns what. 16 MR. SMITH: When did you last talk to Mr. 17 Campfield? 18 JUROR NO. 120: Two or three weeks ago, I guess. 19 MR. SMITH: Have you ever heard Mr. Campfield 20 express an opinion concerning this case? 21 JUROR NO. 120: No. 22 MR. SMITH: Have you expressed an opinion to 23 him? 24 JUROR NO. 120: No. 25 MR. SMITH: Have you ever discussed Joseph 20 1 Wesbecker or Prozac with Mr. Campfield? 2 JUROR NO. 120: (Shakes head negatively). 3 MR. SMITH: Have you heard anything he said 4 about Standard Gravure, Riverport Imaging, Prozac or Joseph 5 Wesbecker? 6 JUROR NO. 120: No. 7 MR. SMITH: You also have a son that took 8 Prozac? 9 JUROR NO. 120: Yes. 10 MR. SMITH: And his experience was good with 11 Prozac? 12 JUROR NO. 120: As far as I know, yes. 13 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Mr. Brown. 14 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher? 15 MR. STOPHER: No questions, Your Honor. 16 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much, sir. I'm 17 going to excuse you and I'm going to let you go until tomorrow 18 morning, if you will report back to the jury pool room at 19 9:00. Don't let anybody communicate or talk with you about 20 the case, that includes the other jurors, the newspapers, 21 whatever. See you at 9:00, sir. 22 JUROR NO. 120: All right. 23 MR. SMITH: We move to strike Mr. Brown for 24 cause, Your Honor. 25 MR. FREEMAN: We agree. 21 1 JUDGE POTTER: You're Mr. Robert Browne with an 2 E? 3 JUROR NO. 92: That's correct, Your Honor. 4 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Browne, I remind you you're 5 still under oath. These gentlemen may want to ask you a few 6 questions. Mr. Stopher? 7 MR. STOPHER: Mr. Browne, my name is Ed Stopher. 8 JUROR NO. 92: How are you? 9 MR. STOPHER: I recall yesterday that you 10 discussed with us the -- I believe it was yesterday. The days 11 begin to run together after a while, but the bankruptcy issue 12 and so forth. I take it that -- and I couldn't quite read all 13 of the letters here on your occupation. I take it that you do 14 have something to do, then, with credit management for Apparel 15 Company? 16 JUROR NO. 92: That's correct. It's the Apparel 17 Group. We have six companies under one group and I'm in 18 charge of credit, collection and accounts receivable. What I 19 brought up, a large customer who owes us a little over 20 $300,000 filed a Chapter 11, and we would like to participate 21 in the case. And I faxed the trustee to get admittance to the 22 unsecured creditors committee. We're either the largest or 23 second largest creditor. It's important to us but I know this 24 is important, too. 25 MR. STOPHER: Well, I appreciate on behalf of 22 1 everybody your noticing that and saying that. It is 2 important, and that's the reason why we're asking you these 3 questions, sir. I take it that in your routine job, sir, you 4 deal with credit management and with numbers. Is that a fair 5 statement, sir? 6 JUROR NO. 92: Very fair, yes. 7 MR. STOPHER: I take it that you are comfortable 8 with numbers and making mathematical calculations in 9 connection with your job? 10 JUROR NO. 92: Yes. 11 MR. STOPHER: That's a fair statement, sir? 12 JUROR NO. 92: Yes. Very much so. 13 MR. STOPHER: In connection with this case, sir, 14 I noticed on the questionnaire that you indicated that you 15 have not been involved in any sort of lawsuit or litigation. 16 Would that include the litigation concerning your work? 17 JUROR NO. 92: I thought that meant personal. 18 I've never been sued or sued anybody, but I have been 19 witnesses in cases where we're suing people for money. 20 MR. STOPHER: I assumed that that's what you 21 meant and I was kind of surprised at the answer. 22 JUROR NO. 92: I never even thought it of it the 23 way you're thinking of it. 24 MR. STOPHER: Just finally, sir, you know now a 25 good deal about this case. You've indicated that you've seen 23 1 some TV news broadcasts which I assume relate to Prozac and 2 perhaps to the Standard Gravure shooting through the years? 3 JUROR NO. 92: That's correct. 4 MR. STOPHER: You've lived here for 27 years, so 5 this is not a new revelation to you, sir? 6 JUROR NO. 92: That's right. 7 MR. STOPHER: What everybody in this case is 8 looking for and what everybody is, of course, entitled to is 9 someone who will decide the case only on the basis of the 10 evidence as it's heard in the courtroom and on the 11 instructions as they're given by Judge Potter at the end of 12 the case. 13 JUROR NO. 92: Yes. I understand. 14 MR. STOPHER: Do you know of any reason, sir, 15 why you can't sit and decide the case based on only those two 16 things? 17 JUROR NO. 92: No, I don't. 18 MR. STOPHER: Is there anything else that 19 influences your judgment in any way for anybody or against 20 anybody? 21 JUROR NO. 92: I don't believe there is. I 22 don't have any opinions one way or the other about the case. 23 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith? 24 MR. SMITH: I'm Paul Smith, and I represent the 25 plaintiffs in this case. 24 1 JUROR NO. 92: How are you? 2 MR. SMITH: Somehow the last question wasn't 3 attached to our copy. It might not have been attached to your 4 copy. 5 MR. STOPHER: I don't have it, either. 6 MS. ZETTLER: It's attached to the original. 7 MR. SMITH: The original says that you answered 8 no, that you don't have any training in the fields of law 9 enforcement or criminology? 10 JUROR NO. 92: That's correct. 11 MR. SMITH: Do you have any preconceived idea, 12 Mr. Browne, in connection with what causes people to be 13 violent, and do you have any particular insight or judgment as 14 to factors that cause people to become violent? 15 JUROR NO. 92: No, I don't. I've never been 16 violent and I don't understand violence. I have no idea what 17 would cause it. 18 MR. SMITH: Have you -- do you have any 19 knowledge concerning the FDA approval process in connection 20 with prescription medication? 21 JUROR NO. 92: Only what I read, and I do read a 22 lot and I do have a good retentive memory, but I do know that 23 the drug has to be approved to go to market. I'm not sure of 24 all the exact reasons they use. 25 MR. SMITH: Did you know that the FDA doesn't 25 1 test drugs themselves? 2 JUROR NO. 92: Does not test drugs? 3 MR. SMITH: Right. 4 JUROR NO. 92: No, I did not. 5 MR. SMITH: And that they rely on the 6 manufacturer to test the drugs? 7 JUROR NO. 92: No. I wasn't aware of that. 8 MR. SMITH: And did you know that the FDA didn't 9 test Prozac themselves, but relied entirely on what Lilly 10 supplied them concerning information in this trial? 11 JUROR NO. 92: I have no knowledge of that at 12 all. 13 MR. SMITH: Did you know that the FDA 14 regulations in connection with the approval of pharmaceutical 15 products are only minimum standards concerning safety? 16 MR. FREEMAN: I don't know if that's a fair 17 question, Your Honor. 18 JUDGE POTTER: I'm going to sustain the 19 objection. 20 MR. SMITH: Do you know of any reason why you 21 can't be a fair and impartial juror in this case? 22 JUROR NO. 92: No, I don't. 23 JUDGE POTTER: I'm going to excuse you and it 24 will be until 9:00 tomorrow morning, where you'll go back to 25 the jury pool where you were this morning. Do not talk to 26 1 anybody about this case and don't let anybody communicate with 2 you about it through the TV or any other way. You can go home 3 right now, but be back over there at 9:00 tomorrow morning. 4 JUROR NO. 92: Okay. Thank you. 5 JUDGE POTTER: If anybody -- if it bothers 6 anybody, I will tell you that we will be taking off -- I don't 7 know, whatever Friday it is, all day instead of half a day if 8 Mr. Burks is on the jury. Don't tell him that, but I've made 9 that decision when I didn't strike him. 10 I remind you you're still under oath, sir. 11 These people may want to ask you a few questions. 12 JUROR NO. 121: Yes, sir. 13 MR. SMITH: Am I first this time? 14 JUDGE POTTER: Yes, sir. 15 MR. SMITH: We're alternating. 16 JUROR NO. 121: I understand. 17 MR. SMITH: Colonel, I see that your career with 18 the military is in the military police; is that right? 19 JUROR NO. 121: Yes. That's correct. 20 MR. SMITH: And I assume that you have 21 particular criminology courses at West Point? How did that 22 work? 23 JUROR NO. 121: Well, I -- in the mid '70s, I 24 was a captain and instructor at West Point but took -- at the 25 time a military police officer but teaching at West Point -- 27 1 but took a Master's case in criminology from the City 2 University of New York at John Jay and commuted about 50 miles 3 to take that course. 4 MR. SMITH: So your Master's is in criminology? 5 JUROR NO. 121: That's right. 6 MR. SMITH: Do you consider yourself to have 7 extraordinary knowledge of violent crimes, what causes people 8 to become violent and things of that nature, as opposed to the 9 administration of law enforcement and things of that nature? 10 JUROR NO. 121: Well, you know, I guess, you 11 know, thinking about environment and all the kinds of things 12 you think about in the study of crime and demographics and 13 economic kinds of situations, there are trends there that I 14 probably recognize in dealing with situations. I couldn't 15 tell you any particular details in terms of that. 16 MR. SMITH: Do you have any preconceived ideas, 17 Colonel, in connection with whether or not a drug could cause 18 an individual to commit a violent act? 19 JUROR NO. 121: I really don't know. I have no 20 idea. 21 MR. SMITH: Have you taken any courses in the 22 effect of illegal drugs in creating violent situations or 23 things of that nature? 24 JUROR NO. 121: Only, you know, the standard 25 stuff. In the army, you know, alcohol and marijuana, that 28 1 kind of stuff that soldiers in that particular age group might 2 have access to. 3 MR. SMITH: Have you been stationed in a variety 4 of places, Colonel? 5 JUROR NO. 121: Yes, sir. 6 MR. SMITH: Have you ever been stationed in 7 Indianapolis, Indiana? 8 JUROR NO. 121: I have. 9 MR. SMITH: When were you in Indianapolis? 10 JUROR NO. 121: In the fall of 1983, for three 11 months. 12 MR. SMITH: And what were you doing then? 13 JUROR NO. 121: In the army you must do two 14 things. Initially, and my primary area was to be a military 15 policeman. The second area that I chose was to be a public 16 information officer, and the public information school is at 17 Fort Benjamin Harrison, at least it was. I guess they've 18 relocated. After that training I went to the Pentagon as a 19 major, spent a year. I went to the military police school at 20 Fort McClellan, Alabama. Went to the War College at Carlisle 21 Barracks for a year and then back to the Pentagon as an 22 executive officer to a two-star chief of public information 23 from 1987 to 1989. 24 MR. SMITH: When you were in Indianapolis, did 25 you come to know or see anything about Eli Lilly and Company? 29 1 That's where they're based. 2 JUROR NO. 121: Only that they were there. 3 MR. SMITH: They've got a big building with a 4 big sign on top of it? 5 JUROR NO. 121: That's about it. 6 MR. SMITH: You don't have any extraordinary 7 knowledge or anything of that nature? 8 JUROR NO. 121: No, sir. 9 MR. SMITH: Thank you, sir. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher? 11 MR. STOPHER: On the questionnaire, sir, you 12 indicated that you do have a bias or prejudice, and it says 13 "for or against the pharmaceutical industry," and you answered 14 that you do and that it's the price of the product. Would you 15 explain that bias or prejudice to me, sir? 16 JUROR NO. 121: Well, I guess it's probably a 17 little -- in my estimation a little high for -- and especially 18 for the people who need it, that for whatever reason need 19 drugs daily and, depending on where they are on the economic 20 strata, I would say that drugs for their benefit are probably 21 a little bit too high. And for those of us that can afford 22 the drug, yes, it's okay; but for those who need the drug that 23 can't afford it, there ought to be a sliding scale in there 24 for those people. 25 MR. SMITH: If you were told, sir, that Prozac 30 1 is one of the drugs that is not inexpensive, that it costs 2 $1.75 approximately per capsule, is that going to trigger that 3 bias or prejudice in this case? 4 JUROR NO. 121: Well, I guess it could. You 5 know, I made the statement. If it falls in that category. I 6 don't know the cost of drugs. I only take aspirin and only 7 when I have to then, but... 8 MR. STOPHER: Do you think maybe that the price 9 of that product if it is in that expensive range may cause you 10 to lean a little bit against the pharmaceutical company in 11 this case, sir? 12 JUROR NO. 121: It could. And I guess -- 13 depending on, I guess, who needs it, I mean, what are the 14 circumstances of people or persons that need it. Again, it's 15 all related to I guess where they are in terms of economics 16 and so forth. If we can afford it in this room, it's one 17 thing, but for those who can't afford it it's another issue, I 18 guess I would say. 19 MR. STOPHER: What about someone who's 20 unemployed? Would that tend to make you lean even further 21 against the pharmaceutical company? 22 JUROR NO. 121: Probably, yes. 23 MR. STOPHER: You also indicated, sir, that you 24 have a brother who was involved in some clinical trials on a 25 medication relating -- 31 1 JUROR NO. 121: He was never in a trial. He, at 2 a very young age -- for sure as a baby -- was asthmatic. And 3 I guess maybe at the age of, you know, five or six or seven 4 was given drugs to relieve his condition, and he subsequently 5 I guess at the age of about maybe ten or eleven became a 6 juvenile diabetic. And, of course, there's no scientific 7 basis in my family, but we all believe that -- and at least I 8 think my mother believes -- that the reason for his diabetes, 9 which to this day he's lost an eye and suffers the way you do 10 as a diabetic, it was related to those early drugs in his 11 young life. 12 MR. STOPHER: We all sympathize with that 13 disease and the people that suffer from it. I have a son with 14 that condition. Is your brother still alive, sir? 15 JUROR NO. 121: He is. He's very active. 16 MR. STOPHER: Do you recall what the asthmatic 17 medication was, sir, that triggered that reaction in him? 18 JUROR NO. 121: I have no idea. No. No, sir. 19 MR. STOPHER: Was it a prescription medication? 20 JUROR NO. 121: I think it was. 21 MR. STOPHER: And in this case, sir, there's 22 going to be a contention that a prescription medication caused 23 an unusual reaction or a reaction in Joseph Wesbecker and made 24 him homicidal. Would the fact that a member of your family 25 had taken another medication and had a very bad reaction that 32 1 has obviously changed his life and perhaps yours and the rest 2 of your family, as well, would that make you tend to want to 3 think that maybe there is a connection there in this case? 4 JUROR NO. 121: I think so. I think about it 5 quite a bit with him. 6 MR. STOPHER: You think that may cause you to 7 lean toward the proposition that maybe a reaction to a drug 8 can cause that sort of behavior? 9 JUROR NO. 121: Well, you know, I can only speak 10 from my experience with my brother and what he has gone 11 through. You know, as a family we have no other information 12 about whatever, but only that he -- and we have no scientific 13 information to say one thing or the other. 14 But I guess the other piece that I'm influenced 15 by, of course, is my wife who is -- I mentioned yesterday is a 16 registered nurse who tends to stay very close to 17 prescriptions. And throughout the family, whether it's on my 18 family or her family, wherever they are, long distance, what 19 are you taking and oh, let-me-look-it-up kind of thing, and if 20 you do take it this is some of the effects, at least in this 21 book that I have, that you should be concerned about. So, you 22 know, I'm sensitive to that based on my brother and my wife's, 23 you know, feeling about it. 24 MR. STOPHER: Mr. Burks, if at the end of this 25 case it's even, you can't decide whether or not it caused it 33 1 or not, do you think your experience where your brother and 2 your family's belief with your brother, as well as your wife's 3 concerns about side effects of drugs to the point that she -- 4 I think you used the word "religiously" consults the PDR, do 5 you think, sir, in the interest of fairness that that might 6 tip you into believing that there may have been a reaction 7 here, that those experiences and that insight and those 8 beliefs, whether they're scientific or not, may influence your 9 judgment in this case? 10 JUROR NO. 121: Well, you know, just thinking 11 about it right now, I would say that just based on all of that 12 we just talked about, my brother and my wife and all of that, 13 I'd probably lean to that side right now. But the other side 14 of that is not having all the information about what a drug 15 does or doesn't do. But right now, yeah, I would say that I 16 lean toward not knowing what drugs do to you. 17 Q. In other words, you would not be starting 18 exactly even; you would tend to believe based on this 19 experience and your wife's information that there may be 20 something to the claim of reaction to a drug? 21 JUROR NO. 121: To a drug, yes; that's a true 22 statement -- a fair statement, rather. 23 MR. STOPHER: I think those are all the 24 questions I have, sir. 25 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Burks, I'm going to excuse 34 1 you till 9:00 tomorrow morning, if you will be back in the 2 jury pool office at 9:00 tomorrow morning. I remind you about 3 my admonition, don't let anybody communicate with you about 4 this case, your wife or other members of your family, and 5 don't watch TV or read any newspapers about this matter. 6 Thank you very much. 7 MR. STOPHER: Judge, we make a motion to strike 8 Mr. Burks. He's obviously a very fine and very unusual man 9 with a great history, but he has an experience that influences 10 his judgment going into this, which I guess I identify with. 11 If I thought I could find a drug or some chemical that caused 12 my son's diabetes, I'd go after them with a vengeance. And I 13 think that that -- 14 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith, do you have any 15 objection? 16 MR. SMITH: I wouldn't think he's any more 17 biased than an individual who had a -- 18 JUDGE POTTER: I couldn't tell from what you 19 were doing whether you wanted him on or off. Let Mr. Stopher 20 finish. 21 MR. STOPHER: He clearly said he starts this 22 race with one side being ahead and leaning toward the 23 proposition that drugs will cause an unusual reaction, and 24 it's based on that life experience which he cannot put out of 25 his mind, as well as the information that he's gotten from his 35 1 wife through the years. So the rule is that somebody that has 2 a predisposition, a prejudice or an idea that gives one side 3 an advantage over the other, that should be grounds for 4 striking for cause, and we make the motion on that ground. 5 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith, what do you say? 6 MR. SMITH: I think he said that he could listen 7 to the evidence and base his verdict on the evidence, Number 8 One. Number Two, I don't think his bias is any more than an 9 individual who's taken Prozac and had a good experience with 10 Prozac. 11 MS. ZETTLER: For instance, Mrs. Gregory. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Well, each one has to be decided 13 on its own because I might go back and, as a matter of fact, I 14 came in at six o'clock this morning and spent some time in the 15 library, thinking, trying to find some cases on people who use 16 the product that's the subject of a litigation, and I wasn't 17 very successful. My clerk's out now trying to find some 18 things. So I don't want to -- each one is going to stand on 19 its own. I don't want this guy to stay in because the Prozac 20 people stay in, because then there would be the argument if I 21 change my mind on that, and I might, I'd go back and do other 22 things. 23 Mr. Stopher, he's kind of in the category that 24 said these are beliefs he holds. And on one with Mr. Smith, 25 you said you didn't ask him the question if I gave him the 36 1 instruction to put that aside could he go ahead and rise above 2 his tentative feelings here. And, quite frankly, I think he 3 was a lot more careful to define what his position is here 4 than most jurors would be, and I interpret him to mean that 5 this is without the information where he stands now. And he 6 does have a slight leaning this way, but there's no indication 7 that if he's on the jury he couldn't put that aside and follow 8 the instructions, so I'm going to deny the motion to strike 9 him for cause. 10 JUDGE POTTER: You're Mr. Burtis; is that right, 11 sir? 12 JUROR NO. 51: That is correct. 13 JUDGE POTTER: I remind you you're still under 14 oath. 15 Mr. Stopher? 16 MR. STOPHER: Mr. Burtis, my name is Ed Stopher. 17 Let me ask you just a couple of questions, sir. If I 18 understand correctly, you're involved as the office manager 19 with a plastics company; am I understanding correctly? 20 JUROR NO. 51: That's correct. 21 MR. STOPHER: Is that a manufacturing 22 installation or a sales and distribution? 23 JUROR NO. 51: We're a distributor, yes, sales 24 office. 25 MR. STOPHER: And I take it from your 37 1 questionnaire that your father and your brothers are involved 2 in hunting and one of them is a collector, but that you 3 yourself don't share those hobbies? 4 JUROR NO. 51: Right. Yeah. I'm from a rural 5 area originally. Once I moved to the city there was no need 6 for me to own a gun. 7 MR. STOPHER: Okay. You indicated also, sir, 8 that you've known two people that have taken Prozac, but you 9 said that they were not good friends of yours and that you 10 didn't know either one of them was taking it at the time and 11 found out about it later; am I right? 12 JUROR NO. 51: Right. 13 MR. STOPHER: I also understand from what you 14 wrote that you don't know what their experience was with 15 Prozac? 16 JUROR NO. 51: Right. I know nothing more than 17 who they were and that was it. I didn't know anything 18 personal about them. 19 MR. STOPHER: Did you -- in connection with the 20 questionnaire, you indicated that you believe that the FDA is 21 doing what they were designed to do, sir. Do you have any 22 particular information about the FDA in connection with your 23 work or any other experience? 24 JUROR NO. 51: No, other than we provide 25 plastics that has to be FDA approved or USDA, or for different 38 1 organizations and I have to provide a lot of forms and stuff 2 for the manufacturers, and I know that there's a lot of -- I 3 know the agencies were designed to basically police these 4 things and, you know, in every situation I guess there's only 5 so much you can or can't do. 6 MR. STOPHER: Do you yourself in connection with 7 your work at the plastics company supply information directly 8 to the FDA? 9 JUROR NO. 51: No. We're just a distributor of 10 raw materials. 11 MR. STOPHER: So you don't have any direct 12 contact one way or the other with the FDA, you just are 13 related to the sales and distribution of products that may 14 have been approved by the FDA? 15 JUROR NO. 51: Right. When I provide materials 16 to my customers, I have to provide paperwork that's prepared 17 for us by the manufacturer, so I'm basically just seeing all 18 this crossing my desk and making sure it gets to the right 19 people. 20 MR. STOPHER: Okay. In this case, sir, there's 21 going to be a lot of evidence about the FDA and about its 22 processes relating to the approval of drugs, and particularly 23 to Prozac. Would your experience or your work connections 24 influence your judgment as to who ought to win or lose on 25 issues that relate to FDA approval and whether or not it was 39 1 done properly? 2 JUROR NO. 51: No. No. I don't see how they 3 could. 4 MR. STOPHER: You'd come in and decide the case 5 based only on the evidence and the laws given to you by the 6 Court without any preconceived ideas about the FDA or their 7 approval processes? 8 JUROR NO. 51: That's correct. I think the 9 reason I put that is I guess we are basically taught that the 10 government agencies are going to do their job, what they're 11 designed for, so it's never been a concern personally for me. 12 MR. STOPHER: I notice, sir, that on answer to 13 Question No. 26, you stated that you don't have any opinion 14 about whether or not Prozac caused Mr. Wesbecker to become 15 homicidal and to commit these acts on September 14, 1989. Is 16 that still true, sir? 17 JUROR NO. 51: From just media that I heard when 18 it happened, I don't know the man or anything connected to 19 him, so I would have no way of making that judgment. 20 MR. STOPHER: I believe those are all the 21 questions I have, sir. 22 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith? 23 MR. SMITH: Mr. Burtis, I'm Paul Smith; I 24 represent the plaintiffs. I see that your education is a 25 Bachelor of Science Degree? 40 1 JUROR NO. 51: Of applied science. I went to 2 ITT in Indianapolis; it's a technical school. 3 MR. SMITH: And you got a degree in robotics? 4 JUROR NO. 51: That's correct. 5 MR. SMITH: Is that what I think it is? 6 JUROR NO. 51: Yes. I have an associate's 7 degree in electronics and a bachelor in robotics, and it has 8 nothing to do with what I do at my job. 9 MR. SMITH: Did you design or test products in 10 school or after you got out of school? 11 JUROR NO. 51: No, not anything other than what 12 was in the book that we had to do. 13 MR. SMITH: How long were you in Indianapolis? 14 JUROR NO. 51: For about 16, 17 months. 15 MR. SMITH: Driving into Indianapolis you see a 16 big sign that says Lilly out there near town? 17 JUROR NO. 51: Right. 18 MR. SMITH: Anything about going to school in 19 Indianapolis where Lilly is home based that would affect your 20 judgment in this case, Mr. Burtis? 21 JUROR NO. 51: No. I was there just to go to 22 school and moved shortly after I got out of the school. 23 MR. SMITH: Have you been with this same company 24 that you're with, Cadillac Plastics, ever since you got out of 25 school? 41 1 JUROR NO. 51: No. This is the third company 2 I've worked for. 3 MR. SMITH: Can you tell me what other two 4 companies you've worked for since you got out of school? 5 JUROR NO. 51: My first company was Scott 6 Industrial in Indianapolis. I worked for them for a couple -- 7 two, three, months and then they transferred me down to the 8 Louisville office. They're industrial distributors for air 9 compressors and hydraulic equipment. I was there for three 10 years. I left there and went to a company called Air 11 Dynamics, and I had always done office work and inside sales 12 and that type stuff. I went to an outside sales position and 13 worked for them for about six months and realized that that 14 was not my place in life. And, so, that's when I went to 15 Cadillac and went back to being on the inside. 16 MR. SMITH: You're not involved in the actual 17 production or testing of products; you're the office manager? 18 JUROR NO. 51: That's correct. 19 MR. SMITH: And who do they supply plastics? 20 JUROR NO. 51: Locally is the only people I 21 would know about. We've got offices all over the United 22 States, but I don't know even who their customers are. We 23 sell to all the large companies and to individuals. 24 MR. SMITH: What kind of plastic? Is this raw 25 plastic that's made into something else? 42 1 JUROR NO. 51: It's classified as sheet, rod and 2 tool material. That would be like lexon sheet, plexiglass 3 sheet. 4 MR. SMITH: Do you know of any reason why you 5 couldn't be a fair and impartial juror in this case? 6 JUROR NO. 51: No, I don't. 7 JUDGE POTTER: I'm going to excuse you still 8 9:00 tomorrow morning. You leave here and go home and be in 9 the jury pool area at 9:00. I emphasize my prior admonition. 10 Don't let anybody talk to you about this case, don't discuss 11 it with anybody, including your other jurors. Thank you very 12 much, sir. 13 Mr. Smith, Mr. Stopher, we kind of need to pick 14 up the pace. 15 You're Mr. Carrell? 16 JUROR NO. 216: Yes, sir. 17 JUDGE POTTER: I remind you you're still under 18 oath, sir. These gentlemen may have some questions for you. 19 Mr. Smith? 20 MR. SMITH: Mr. Carrell, you stated in your 21 questionnaire -- we appreciate you filling it out -- that your 22 opinion is that people in society don't want to take 23 responsibility for their actions and that we're always looking 24 for someone to blame for our actions or circumstances; 25 correct? 43 1 JUROR NO. 216: Uh-huh. 2 MR. SMITH: Would that opinion affect your 3 judgment in this case in connection with the actions of Joseph 4 Wesbecker and the relation of Prozac to those actions, sir? 5 JUROR NO. 216: With the knowledge -- and I've 6 given this a lot of thought because, I'll be real honest, I 7 was hesitant to say that, but that's really the way I feel. 8 MR. SMITH: I appreciate your expressing your 9 opinion. 10 JUROR NO. 216: With what I know right now, I'd 11 have to say yes. I obviously don't know nearly as much as you 12 do, I mean, that goes without saying. But, I mean, just 13 from -- and I read the paper and just have probably the same 14 level of knowledge that anybody that's lived in Louisville 15 during this time has. I just have -- at the heart of it I 16 have a problem with the connection between his actions and 17 damages blaming the maker of a drug company. 18 MR. SMITH: All right. 19 JUROR NO. 216: The makers of the drug. 20 MR. SMITH: I guess the question I have is, 21 we're going to be presenting evidence that we think supports 22 our position that this drug caused him to do what he did, yet, 23 the defendant -- and we're not going to be able to dispute the 24 fact that Joseph Wesbecker actually walked in there and 25 actually pulled the trigger to this gun that he had. My 44 1 question to you is: Do you think that based on -- after 2 hearing everybody's evidence, that your judgment that you have 3 now that an individual is responsible for their own action, 4 would cause you to more likely render in your deliberations a 5 verdict in favor of Eli Lilly in this case? 6 JUROR NO. 216: That's hard to say. I don't 7 know. I know that you guys have got tons of evidence. I 8 heard on the news the other night, you know, and, I mean, I'm 9 an educated person and open-minded in a lot of ways. I guess 10 what I'm saying is you'd have maybe more convincing of me 11 because of my philosophy as it relates to that than maybe 12 someone else. 13 MR. SMITH: Do you think you would be more 14 inclined to require me as attorney for the plaintiffs to 15 produce more evidence to support that than the ordinary juror 16 would? 17 JUROR NO. 216: Maybe. Yeah. I think you start 18 out in the hole. 19 MR. FREEMAN: That's not a fair question. He's 20 the bearer of the burden of proof. 21 JUDGE POTTER: Go ahead, Mr. Smith. 22 JUROR NO. 216: Yeah. I think you start out at 23 a disadvantage. 24 MR. SMITH: And do you think that disadvantage 25 would continue through the trial? 45 1 JUROR NO. 216: Well, not if your argument is 2 convincing, I suppose. 3 MR. SMITH: Do you think my argument is going to 4 have to be more convincing than that of Mr. Freeman or Mr. 5 Stopher here? 6 JUROR NO. 216: From where I sit right now, yes. 7 MR. SMITH: We're not starting at the same place 8 is what you're telling us? 9 JUROR NO. 216: Yeah, I guess so. 10 MR. SMITH: You're going to listen to the 11 evidence, but the way you listen to the evidence is going to 12 be affected by your preconceived ideas? 13 JUROR NO. 216: Yeah. I think that's true of 14 everyone. 15 MR. SMITH: And may very well affect your 16 verdict in this case? 17 JUROR NO. 216: Yeah. Who we are certainly 18 affects the way we filter everything. 19 MR. SMITH: I understand that, but do you think 20 your opinion is so strong that you would be less likely to 21 listen to the evidence on an equal basis? 22 JUROR NO. 216: No. But I don't know that I 23 could say if someone doesn't feel the way I do in general that 24 we would be exactly the same. That's the only way I can say 25 what I feel. 46 1 MR. SMITH: All right. You also have the 2 opinion that the FDA is extremely cautious in their review of 3 drugs; is that right? 4 JUROR NO. 216: Uh-huh. 5 MR. SMITH: Where do you get that opinion? 6 JUROR NO. 216: Just -- that's not a question 7 that comes up every day to someone. My position just from my 8 life's experience. I have a friend that's a pharmaceutical 9 salesman. From my relationship with him at the times we talk 10 about work. I had a seminar several years ago with a 11 gentleman who worked for Lilly. I mean, we're not friends or 12 anything. It's just we were together for two days and just 13 his comments he made about, you know, how many drugs are 14 tested versus the ones that actually hit the market. Just 15 things that come up over the course of my lifetime. 16 MR. SMITH: So you've actually talked to Lilly 17 employees who have expressed to you how the FDA approves 18 products and what Lilly does to get that approval? 19 JUROR NO. 216: Not in any great detail. 20 MR. SMITH: I understand that. But that's also 21 information that you use in forming your opinion that the 22 FDA -- 23 JUROR NO. 216: Yes. I guess it is. 24 MR. SMITH: And is that also information that 25 you used in this preconceived idea you have that Mr. 47 1 Wesbecker's actions were not related at trial? 2 JUROR NO. 216: No. I don't think so. 3 MR. SMITH: What was that employee at Lilly's 4 name? 5 JUROR NO. 216: I don't know. You go to 6 seminars, meet somebody and you just talk. 7 MR. SMITH: Oh, this wasn't a friend of yours? 8 JUROR NO. 216: No. No. The friend of mine is 9 a pharmaceutical salesman, does not work for Lilly. 10 MR. SMITH: What type of reaction has your 11 mother had to prescription medications? 12 JUROR NO. 216: Just typically over the course 13 of her life I think my mother's body is sensitive to drugs. I 14 mean, she's one of these people that will go to the doctor and 15 the doctor will tell her to take -- prescribe a certain amount 16 of medication and she'll do that for a couple days, and she 17 will say I felt lightheaded or felt funny so I'm only taking 18 half of what he said to, which I'm usually critical of that 19 because he's the doctor and she's not. But because that's the 20 way my mom's always been, so that's why I mentioned that. 21 MR. SMITH: You say you have a friend currently 22 taking Prozac? 23 JUROR NO. 216: Yes, sir. 24 MR. SMITH: Has your friend discussed with you 25 the effects of Prozac and whether or not that friend has any 48 1 opinion on Prozac? 2 JUROR NO. 216: No. No, he has not. 3 MR. SMITH: Was that for depression your friend 4 is taking Prozac? 5 JUROR NO. 216: Yes. 6 MR. SMITH: That's all I have. 7 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher? 8 MR. STOPHER: Mr. Carrell, you've discussed some 9 ideas and some beliefs and so forth that you have. The real 10 issue in the case is: Can you sit as a juror in the case, 11 listen to the evidence and decide based on that evidence and 12 on the law that Judge Potter gives you at the end of the case? 13 Can you do that, sir? 14 JUROR NO. 216: I would like to say that I can. 15 I mean, I really think that I can, but I also felt that -- I 16 mean, that's the way I feel about our society in general, and 17 I owe that to you. 18 MR. STOPHER: We're not asking for people that 19 don't have any ideas about anything, but we are most 20 interested in whether or not you can sit in this case based on 21 the evidence and the law as given to you by the judge, whether 22 you like the law or not. Can you do that? 23 JUROR NO. 216: Yeah. I think I can do that. 24 MR. STOPHER: Thank you, sir. That's all I 25 have. Thank you, sir. 49 1 JUDGE POTTER: I'm going to excuse you till 9:00 2 tomorrow morning. You can go home and come back at 9:00 3 tomorrow morning. Don't talk to anybody, other jurors or read 4 about it in the newspaper or TV. Thank you, Mr. Carrell. 5 MR. SMITH: We'd move to strike Mr. Carrell. 6 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Is there anything you want 7 to say before I rule on it? 8 MR. STOPHER: Judge, I think Mr. Carrell is 9 exactly like Mr. Burks. He has some life experiences that he 10 carries into the case. 11 JUDGE POTTER: Yeah. I think it's the same 12 category, that he's -- I'm going to deny the motion to strike 13 him for cause. I'm not trading him off one way or the other; 14 we just had a good discussion very recently. 15 You're Ms. Druin? I remind you you're still 16 under oath. These attorneys might have some questions for 17 you. Mr. Smith -- Mr. Stopher. We're out of cycle. Mr. 18 Stopher? 19 MR. STOPHER: Ms. Druin, I'm Ed Stopher. I just 20 had a few questions for you. I don't know if it's my eyesight 21 or the bad photocopies. I couldn't read your occupation. 22 JUROR NO. 192: Wife and mother. 23 MR. STOPHER: Okay. I thought that's what it 24 was. 25 JUROR NO. 192: I'm not working right now. 50 1 MR. STOPHER: And your spouse, your husband 2 is -- it looks like an electric company? 3 JUROR NO. 192: Yeah. Arrow Electric Company. 4 He's a lineman there. 5 MR. STOPHER: Okay. Has he ever worked at any 6 time in the past for Marine Electric Company? 7 JUROR NO. 192: No. 8 MR. STOPHER: The reason I ask you is some of 9 their employees are electricians, Mr. Seidenfaden and Mr. 10 Hatfield, and they were wounded in this incident. Do you know 11 them or know anything about Marine Electric Company? 12 JUROR NO. 192: No. 13 MR. STOPHER: Has your husband ever done any 14 electrical work at Standard Gravure? 15 JUROR NO. 192: No. Hunh-uh. 16 MR. STOPHER: Okay. You answered that -- on 17 Question No. 9, that you believe that a prescription drug for 18 treating depression should be found 100-percent safe before 19 being sold to the public. Can you explain that answer a bit 20 to us? 21 JUROR NO. 192: Oh, gosh. Well, I just think 22 that it shouldn't be put out on the market unless it's 23 100-percent safe. I guess with anything. I don't know. I 24 mean, if they're like 80-percent sure that it's going to be a 25 good drug, then I don't feel that it should be out there. 51 1 MR. STOPHER: What about side effects? 2 JUROR NO. 192: What they should do about the 3 side effects or what do you mean? 4 MR. STOPHER: Yes, ma'am. 5 JUROR NO. 192: I think they should just make 6 the public aware of what can happen. 7 MR. STOPHER: Okay. In the answers, you 8 indicated that some of the members of your family have been 9 treated for depression? 10 JUROR NO. 192: Uh-huh. 11 MR. STOPHER: Would you -- I don't want to pry 12 into your family, but you can understand why it's important to 13 know this. 14 JUROR NO. 192: Right. 15 MR. STOPHER: Who in your family has been 16 treated? 17 JUROR NO. 192: Mainly my sister, my older 18 sister. 19 MR. STOPHER: All right. And has she been 20 treated for depression for a long time? 21 JUROR NO. 192: Yeah. Probably since she was a 22 teenager and she's 32 now, and I just found out the other day 23 that her doctor has her on Prozac but she's not taking it. 24 MR. STOPHER: Why is she not taking it? 25 JUROR NO. 192: She said it made her too hyper, 52 1 so she just has the bottle there. 2 MR. STOPHER: Did you believe her when she told 3 you that it made her too hyper? 4 JUROR NO. 192: I'd like to believe her, but 5 I've been on antidepressants and I know how they work. Her, 6 on the other hand, wants a nerve pill that's instant. So our 7 opinions on antidepressants are different. 8 MR. STOPHER: Let me stick with her for the 9 moment. And you understand that obviously none of us are 10 interested in this just to try to pry into your affairs? 11 JUROR NO. 192: I understand. 12 MR. STOPHER: But did she take Prozac and then 13 become hyper? 14 JUROR NO. 192: Uh-huh. That's what she says. 15 MR. STOPHER: And then she stopped it? 16 JUROR NO. 192: Uh-huh. 17 MR. STOPHER: And do you tend to believe that 18 that's an accurate account of her reaction to Prozac? 19 JUROR NO. 192: Do I feel that she's -- 20 MR. STOPHER: Reporting it accurately to you? 21 JUROR NO. 192: Oh, gosh. I don't -- I don't 22 know. I would think not, no. I wouldn't think that it would 23 make you hyper. That's just my opinion. 24 MR. STOPHER: Did she ever claim that it made 25 her suicidal or think about suicide? 53 1 JUROR NO. 192: No. But she has tried suicide 2 before. That wasn't even in the picture then, so... 3 MR. STOPHER: Did she claim that it made her 4 become violent or think about violence? 5 JUROR NO. 192: No. She's never said that. 6 MR. STOPHER: If there's a contention in this 7 case that Prozac made Mr. Wesbecker become hyper, would you 8 tend to believe that evidence more than if someone testified 9 that it did not make him hyper? 10 JUROR NO. 192: Repeat that. I lost you. I'm 11 sorry. 12 MR. STOPHER: I apologize. It's probably not 13 very well asked. There's going to be a dispute in this case 14 about whether or not Prozac made Mr. Wesbecker hyper, in some 15 senses of that word, I suppose. Do you have based on your 16 sister's experience some idea about that that you may carry 17 into the jury room? 18 JUROR NO. 192: Well, that -- I don't know. If 19 that was in the case, there's two people saying it made them 20 that way. I don't know if I can answer that. I just don't 21 know how I would feel about that. 22 MR. STOPHER: You think it may -- the fact that 23 your sister had such a reaction may tend to make you believe 24 that? 25 JUROR NO. 192: Well, like I said, I don't 54 1 believe that it made her hyper, but then if somebody else is 2 saying that it did them the same way, I really don't know how 3 I would feel. 4 MR. STOPHER: You yourself have had depression? 5 JUROR NO. 192: Uh-huh. Well, I didn't think I 6 was depressed. This was years and years ago, but it was 7 anxiety attacks and stuff, so they put me on antidepressants. 8 MR. STOPHER: Do you know what you were on? 9 JUROR NO. 192: Sinequan. 10 MR. STOPHER: Sinequan. Any others? 11 JUROR NO. 192: No. 12 MR. STOPHER: Ms. Druin, has that experience 13 made you more sensitive to the issues of depression and the 14 reactions to depression that antidepressants produce that you 15 might have an opinion about prescription medications for that 16 problem? 17 JUROR NO. 192: Well, are you asking me if I 18 feel that Prozac caused him to do that? 19 MR. STOPHER: Sure. 20 JUROR NO. 192: No, I don't. 21 MR. STOPHER: You don't think it caused him to 22 do it? 23 JUROR NO. 192: No. 24 MR. STOPHER: Are there other people in your 25 immediate family that have taken antidepressants other than 55 1 your sister and yourself? 2 JUROR NO. 192: Hunh-uh. Hunh-uh. 3 MR. STOPHER: Okay. You indicated that a friend 4 of yours is on medication? 5 JUROR NO. 192: I'm not sure what she's taking. 6 It's also an antidepressant, but I'm not sure what it is. 7 MR. STOPHER: And you made the statement that 8 she gets upset very easily. Does she sometimes become 9 suicidal or violent or aggressive? 10 JUROR NO. 192: Violent as far as threatening 11 her boyfriend and stuff like that, but since she's been on the 12 antidepressant maybe three or four months she is a different 13 person. You know, she's not like that, the way she was. 14 MR. STOPHER: Ms. Druin, this case really 15 involves depression, Prozac and violent homicidal activity. 16 You've had some experience with -- either through yourself or 17 members of your family or friends with all three of those 18 topics. 19 JUROR NO. 192: Uh-huh. 20 MR. STOPHER: Is that experience going to tend 21 to influence how you may vote as a juror in this case? 22 JUROR NO. 192: I wouldn't think so, but, I 23 mean, -- well, the girlfriend of mine, she -- I couldn't 24 imagine her going as far as he did, but then, you know, you 25 just never know when somebody just snaps, but I really don't 56 1 know. 2 MR. STOPHER: Let me ask the question this way: 3 Judge Potter mentioned the other day that everybody obviously 4 wants to be fair, but that because of situations and 5 information, some cases are just not for us. Is this a case 6 that's just not for you because of your experience? 7 JUROR NO. 192: No. I don't feel that. I mean, 8 I would listen to both cases, of course, but I already do have 9 my own opinion before hearing everybody else and all the other 10 information and everything. It's just my opinion that Eli 11 Lilly should not be responsible for this; I mean, that's just 12 my opinion so... 13 MR. STOPHER: But I take it that that's an 14 opinion that you have that you're going to put aside and 15 decide the case based on what the evidence is, is that where 16 we are? 17 MR. SMITH: Objection. Leading. 18 MR. POTTER: Overruled. 19 MR. STOPHER: Can you -- 20 JUROR NO. 192: Answer it? 21 MR. STOPHER: Yeah. I think I can put my 22 opinions to the side and just hear both sides of it. I don't 23 know a whole lot about it. I just know that he was on this 24 and he did that, and that's basically it. 25 MR. STOPHER: Okay. Thank you, Ms. Druin. 57 1 JUDGE POTTER: Ma'am, this gentleman, Mr. Smith, 2 may have some questions for you, maybe. 3 JUROR NO. 192: Okay. 4 MR. SMITH: Ms. Druin, on what do you base your 5 initial impression right now that Joseph Wesbecker's actions 6 were not influenced by Prozac? 7 JUROR NO. 192: Why do I feel that? 8 MR. SMITH: Yes, ma'am. 9 JUROR NO. 192: Well, there's too many people on 10 Prozac. I mean, I just feel like that it was not -- he was 11 obviously already this way. I don't know. Maybe the Prozac 12 hadn't even kicked in yet and was helping him. I'm not sure. 13 I don't know a whole lot about it, but I just don't feel like 14 he -- that Prozac caused this. 15 MR. SMITH: How strong are those feelings? 16 JUROR NO. 192: It's pretty strong, but then I 17 have mixed motions about that. If a doctor wanted to put me 18 on Prozac today I would say no, if that makes sense to 19 anybody. I think I would just be a little leery, but then on 20 the other hand, I still feel like that it didn't cause it. I 21 don't know if I'm making sense. 22 MR. SMITH: I guess our concern is whether 23 you're -- how much your feelings are going to spill over into 24 your deliberations in this case, you know. And that's a hard 25 issue for us to try to get some insight into and for you to 58 1 express. The Judge is going to instruct you to base your 2 verdict on the evidence that you hear in this case. My 3 question is: Can you put your experience beside you based on 4 what you say is a pretty strong opinion and render your 5 verdict on the evidence you hear out there in the courtroom? 6 JUROR NO. 192: I feel that I can. You know, 7 just hearing two different stories, you know, because I've 8 never heard -- you know -- 9 MR. SMITH: The real story? 10 JUROR NO. 192: Right. I guess you could say 11 that, yeah. So I'm sure I can. I'm a fair person, and 12 hearing one side and another side, I think... 13 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Ms. Druin. 14 JUDGE POTTER: Ms. Druin, I'm going to excuse 15 you till 9:00 tomorrow morning. You're free to go home and if 16 you'll be over to the jury pool at 9:00. Again I emphasize my 17 admonition. Do not permit anybody to talk to you about this 18 case or you talk to anybody else including your other jurors. 19 JUROR NO. 192: Okay. 20 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much. 21 JUROR NO. 192: Thank you. 22 JUDGE POTTER: Let's see if we have a motion on 23 this and we'll take a five-minute recess. Does anybody have 24 any motions on Ms. Druin? 25 MR. SMITH: No. 59 1 59 2 JUDGE POTTER: Let's really cut it to five 3 minutes and just run out and run back. 4 (RECESS) 5 JUDGE POTTER: You're Ms. Duncan? 6 JUROR NO. 213: Yes, sir. 7 JUDGE POTTER: I'll remind you you're still 8 under oath. Ms. Duncan, just more my own curiosity, did I see 9 you working in the courthouse last night? 10 JUROR NO. 213: Hunh-uh. 11 JUDGE POTTER: There was someone that looked 12 very much like you that I thought I saw working the cleaning 13 crew when I went home, and that wasn't you? 14 JUROR NO. 213: No, sir. 15 JUDGE POTTER: I apologize. I remind you you're 16 still under oath. These gentlemen may have some questions for 17 you. 18 Go ahead. 19 MR. SMITH: Ms. Duncan, I see that -- I'm Paul 20 Smith, and I represent the plaintiffs in this case. I see in 21 your questionnaire that you had a friend who was depressed and 22 took Prozac while she was in the hospital? 23 JUROR NO. 213: Uh-huh . 24 MR. SMITH: Did she report to you what her 25 experience was in connection with the Prozac? 60 1 JUROR NO. 213: No, sir. 2 MR. SMITH: She didn't tell you whether it 3 worked or didn't work? 4 JUROR NO. 213: No, sir. 5 MR. SMITH: Since she returned to the hospital, 6 has she indicated to you whether or not she's continuing to 7 take Prozac? 8 JUROR NO. 213: No, sir; she didn't. 9 MR. SMITH: She did not finish? 10 JUROR NO. 213: She didn't tell me whether or 11 not she did or didn't. 12 MR. SMITH: You don't know whether she is 13 continuing to? 14 JUROR NO. 213: I don't think she has because 15 she's pregnant. I don't know anything about the drug so I 16 don't know if it would affect her pregnancy or not. 17 MR. SMITH: Anything about your friend's 18 experience with Prozac that would affect your judgment as a 19 juror in this case? 20 JUROR NO. 213: No, sir. 21 MR. SMITH: That's all I have. 22 MR. STOPHER: We're looking for people who 23 obviously don't have any preconceived ideas about this case. 24 I assume from what you've written in the answers to the 25 questions that you have heard some things about this incident; 61 1 am I right? 2 JUROR NO. 213: I heard a little about it on the 3 news when it happened but, of course, I was only 15 at the 4 time, so I really didn't listen to the news a lot. 5 MR. STOPHER: Okay. Based on that or anything 6 else, do you have any ideas as to what caused Mr. Wesbecker to 7 do what he did? 8 JUROR NO. 213: No. I didn't really know hardly 9 anything that happened there. I just heard that someone went 10 into the plant and shot people. That's all I really remember. 11 MR. STOPHER: Okay. Do you have any idea that 12 Prozac made him do that? 13 JUROR NO. 213: No. I have no idea. 14 MR. STOPHER: Or that it could make him do that? 15 JUROR NO. 213: I really don't know anything 16 about the drug, so I don't know whether it would or wouldn't. 17 MR. STOPHER: Okay. Thank you, Ms. Duncan. 18 JUDGE POTTER: Ms. Duncan, I'm going to excuse 19 you till 9:00 tomorrow morning, and you're free to leave and 20 just abe in the jury pool area where you start out each 21 morning at 9:00. I emphasize again do not permit anybody to 22 talk to you about the case or don't you talk to anybody else 23 about the case, and that includes the jurors, and don't watch 24 the TV if it comes on or the newspaper. Okay? 25 JUROR NO. 213: Okay. 62 1 JUDGE POTTER: See you at 9:00. 2 You're Mr. Dwyer? 3 JUROR NO. 94: Yes, sir. 4 JUDGE POTTER: Sir, I'll remind you you're still 5 under oath. These gentlemen may have some questions for you. 6 Mr. Stopher? 7 MR. STOPHER: Mr. Dwyer? 8 JUROR NO. 94: Dwyer, yes. 9 MR. STOPHER: My name is Ed Stopher. I wanted 10 to ask you about the answer that you gave that the FDA in your 11 opinion tends to not run enough tests on specific drugs that 12 have certain controversy surrounding them, if I read your 13 handwriting correctly. Can you explain to me what you meant, 14 sir? 15 JUROR NO. 94: Not in particularly. I mean, 16 it's just things I've picked up in the news, you know, things 17 that have made headlines and such about certain drugs for 18 certain types of problems. 19 MR. STOPHER: Which drugs, do you know, sir? 20 JUROR NO. 94: Like a couple years ago about the 21 AIDS-related drugs that they were trying to put on the market 22 that they found out was not helping out, that wasn't doing 23 anything, and I've seen some in the news about the Prozac drug 24 and just different -- I mean, I guess for a long time, you 25 know, there was a lot earlier on in the earlier part of the 63 1 century that they didn't think hurt anybody, and even now they 2 use morphine for pain, which is not, you know, a good drug to 3 have. 4 MR. STOPHER: Do you have an opinion that the 5 FDA did not do enough tests on Prozac? 6 JUROR NO. 94: I haven't been able to see any 7 kind of results as far as -- you know, I have never heard the 8 FDA connected right with Prozac. 9 MR. STOPHER: You wrote that in connection with 10 drugs for the treatment of depression that you thought that 11 they should be 100-percent safe before being sold to the 12 public? 13 JUROR NO. 94: Yes. 14 MR. STOPHER: Can you tell me what you meant by 15 that? 16 JUROR NO. 94: Just that it should be beyond a 17 reasonable doubt that there should be no side effects. And I 18 understand that there's no drug like that but, you know, they 19 should be able to test it on a certain amount of controlled 20 group of people and continue to test it as long as it's in 21 use, just to -- more or less maybe updates. And the drugs, 22 see if there's any connection with any other kind of 23 illnesses. 24 MR. STOPHER: Do you think that a drug before 25 it's marketed should be free of all side effects? 64 1 JUROR NO. 94: All harmful side effects unless 2 they can be treated with another drug. 3 MR. STOPHER: What if that cannot be done, does 4 that mean that the drug is unsafe? 5 JUROR NO. 94: I would consider it unsafe. 6 MR. STOPHER: In this case Prozac has side 7 effects. Does that mean that you believe that Prozac is 8 unsafe going into this trial? 9 JUROR NO. 94: I don't know what the side 10 effects are. If I know what the side effects are and I 11 considered them unsafe, I would not take it or recommend 12 anybody I knew to take it. 13 MR. STOPHER: What if it can cause a lot of 14 different conditions and reactions, as many as 20 different 15 conditions or reactions? 16 JUROR NO. 94: Then I would consider it unsafe. 17 MR. STOPHER: If that was the situation with 18 regard to Prozac, your opinion is that it is an unsafe drug? 19 JUROR NO. 94: Yes. 20 MR. STOPHER: In connection with the answer to 21 No. 25, sir, you said, "I find that I do hold a preconceived 22 idea and bias against Eli Lilly and Company from research for 23 a school paper done on the incident at Standard Gravure. This 24 paper did deal with the FDA and research on Prozac." Did I 25 understand this -- 65 1 JUROR NO. 94: I did it right when it happened 2 and we -- I was with a group of people and we more or less 3 just pulled facts as we found them. You know, like I said, I 4 don't remember where the facts came from. I couldn't give the 5 scientific journals or anything else that they came from. 6 MR. STOPHER: And did you reach a conclusion in 7 that paper, sir? 8 JUROR NO. 94: At the time we -- you know, it 9 wasn't asking for a conclusion; it was just asking to state 10 facts and, you know, more or less tell what happened and what 11 you think may have caused it. 12 MR. STOPHER: And what did you think caused it? 13 JUROR NO. 94: I considered that the depression 14 couldn't have just made the man snap; it had to be some 15 outside influence. 16 MR. STOPHER: And what outside influence did you 17 determine that it was? 18 JUROR NO. 94: We determined that it could have 19 been Prozac -- we didn't say that it was -- or something else 20 he may have been taking at the time. There wasn't anything 21 stated that he took other than Prozac. 22 MR. STOPHER: Uh-huh. Based on that, you do 23 have a preconceived idea and bias against Eli Lilly and 24 Company, as you wrote? 25 JUROR NO. 94: Yes, sir. As far as that paper 66 1 shows that I did. 2 MR. STOPHER: All right. You stated in answer 3 to No. 26 that you already have an opinion that Prozac was a 4 contributing cause to Joseph Wesbecker's actions. 5 JUROR NO. 94: As far as what I've seen recently 6 before I was called to jury duty, yes. 7 MR. STOPHER: And is that based on the work that 8 you did on this paper? 9 JUROR NO. 94: No. This is just more or less 10 recently from just seeing newsclips and reels. 11 MR. STOPHER: What is the basis for that 12 opinion, sir? 13 JUROR NO. 94: That he wasn't -- he was under 14 depression and he didn't really snap, I guess, till after he 15 started taking the drug, or that's what I've gotten from the 16 news, you know, that's the way it was stated by some of the 17 stuff I've read and seen on TV. 18 MR. STOPHER: So your conclusion is that he had 19 depression, he took Prozac and he snapped, therefore he 20 snapped because he was on Prozac? 21 JUROR NO. 94: Yes. That's... 22 MR. STOPHER: Mr. Dwyer, I take it that these 23 are opinions that you've held since the time you wrote your 24 paper; am I right? 25 JUROR NO. 94: Well, the paper confirmed 67 1 opinions that I had had. 2 MR. STOPHER: And I take it that you wrote that 3 paper back in 1989 or 1990? 4 JUROR NO. 94: '89, just right after the 5 incident. 6 MR. STOPHER: And that you updated that opinion 7 recently by looking at news reports? 8 JUROR NO. 94: Yes. 9 MR. STOPHER: And you still hold the same 10 opinion? 11 JUROR NO. 94: Yes. 12 MR. STOPHER: And this is the opinion that you 13 would carry into the jury box if you were selected to serve in 14 this case? 15 JUROR NO. 94: I'm afraid so. 16 MR. STOPHER: Yes, sir. Would that opinion that 17 you've held for now five years or almost five years tend to 18 influence your verdict in this case? 19 JUROR NO. 94: I would say I could not be 20 impartial. 21 MR. STOPHER: Right. Thank you, sir. 22 JUDGE POTTER: Any questions, Mr. Smith? 23 MR. SMITH: Just a couple. Mr. Dwyer, we will 24 present evidence in connection with this matter. Eli Lilly 25 and Company will present evidence in connection with this 68 1 matter, evidence from both sides that is much more extensive 2 and much more detailed than that evidence that you've been 3 seeing so far. And at the conclusion of that, the Judge will 4 instruct you to base your verdict based on the evidence that's 5 presented to you in the courtroom and to disregard anything 6 else you might have learned or known about the drug or the 7 activity of Mr. Wesbecker before that. Do you think you'd be 8 able to do that in this case? 9 JUROR NO. 94: I don't think I could, sir. I 10 mean, I would try but I would be afraid that I would be 11 influenced by the things I've seen and working on that paper. 12 MR. SMITH: All right. 13 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Mr. Dwyer, I'm going to 14 excuse you -- well, and what you need to do is to call the -- 15 I tell you what, you just wait outside the door for a split 16 second, will you, sir? 17 MR. FREEMAN: We move to excuse. 18 MR. SMITH: (Shakes head negatively). 19 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Dwyer, I just needed to talk 20 with the lawyers for just a split second and I think you can 21 understand what happened. I'm going to excuse you from this 22 case. If you call that telephone number on your jury badge, 23 they'll tell you whether to come in tomorrow for another 24 trial. Okay. Appreciate your honesty. Thank you very much, 25 sir. 69 1 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Are you Ms. Felker? 2 JUROR NO. 136: Yes, sir. 3 JUDGE POTTER: Have a seat, ma'am. I remind you 4 you're still under oath. These gentlemen may have some 5 questions for you. 6 Mr. Smith? 7 MR. SMITH: Ms. Felker, I notice that you work 8 for Philip Morris and Company; is that right? 9 JUROR NO. 136: Yes, sir. 10 MR. SMITH: And what do you do for them? 11 JUROR NO. 136: I'm an inspector. 12 MR. SMITH: What does that mean? 13 JUROR NO. 136: I check the different aspects of 14 cigarettes and filters, the target weights, you know. Philip 15 Morris has certain specifications and I make adjustments on 16 machines to meet those specifications. 17 MR. SMITH: This is a lawsuit, Ms. Felker, 18 involving claims against Prozac and claims against the 19 manufacturer of a drug Prozac, that's used by a lot of 20 individuals. You happen to be working for a company -- I'm a 21 smoker -- that is the subject of much lawsuits and litigation 22 in connection with tobacco smokers getting sick as a result of 23 smoking cigarettes. My question to you is: Because you are 24 an employee of Philip Morris who's a defendant in many 25 lawsuits in a controversial matter, a matter involving health 70 1 issues, as this case is, do you think that would have an 2 influence in your verdict in this case? 3 JUROR NO. 136: No. I never made the connection 4 like you just did. 5 MR. SMITH: Maybe I shouldn't have. But you 6 don't see any connection there and you don't think that would 7 affect your verdict? 8 JUROR NO. 136: No. No. 9 MR. SMITH: Thank you, ma'am. 10 MR. STOPHER: No questions, Your Honor. 11 JUDGE POTTER: Ms. Felker, I'm going to excuse 12 you till 9:00 tomorrow morning. You may go home now but would 13 you be back in the jury room over there at 9:00 tomorrow 14 morning, the assembly area, where you just started out? 15 JUROR NO. 136: Yes. Over there? 16 JUDGE POTTER: In the other building. And I'm 17 going to remind you of my admonition, which is don't permit 18 anybody to talk to you on this case and don't you communicate 19 with anybody else, including the other jurors about this case, 20 and don't let the newspaper or TV communicate with you about 21 it. 22 JUROR NO. 136: No problem there. 23 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much. 24 You're Ms. Franklin; is that right? 25 JUROR NO. 13: Flanery. 71 1 JUDGE POTTER: Flanery. Angela Flanery. I'll 2 remind you you're still under oath. These attorneys may have 3 questions for you. 4 MR. STOPHER: Ms. Flanery, my name is Ed 5 Stopher. I just wanted to ask you a couple questions about -- 6 and I don't want to pry into your affairs or your family's 7 affairs, but it's not because of some personal interest that 8 I'm doing this, so I hope you will understand the nature of 9 the questions. 10 JUROR NO. 13: Sure. 11 MR. STOPHER: You indicated that someone, either 12 yourself or someone that you're close to, has had a problem 13 with an obsessive compulsive disorder or OCD. Is that you or 14 someone else? 15 JUROR NO. 13: Yes. It's me. 16 MR. STOPHER: And is this a disorder that you 17 wrote here, I think, has been there since the early 1980s? 18 JUROR NO. 13: Yeah. That's when it first 19 became -- I think at times even in the past before that I had 20 saw it, but it was in the early -- early to mid '80s that it 21 was actually diagnosed as an obsessive compulsive disorder. 22 MR. STOPHER: And you indicated that you have 23 taken some medications for that, but you don't know what they 24 are? 25 JUROR NO. 13: I'm thinking the name of it was 72 1 Imipramine. Maybe. I'm not positive about that. 2 MR. STOPHER: Imipramine. And why did you stop 3 taking it? 4 JUROR NO. 13: I couldn't really tell any 5 difference, and I just stopped. 6 MR. STOPHER: Has anyone suggested that you take 7 Prozac for OCD? 8 JUROR NO. 13: Not that I recall. I mean, that 9 was a long time ago, but I have no memory of anyone doing 10 that. 11 MR. STOPHER: If a doctor prescribed it to you 12 for OCD or obsessive compulsive disorder, would you take it? 13 JUROR NO. 13: I don't know. I haven't thought 14 about it. I mean, I really don't know. I don't know anything 15 about it. 16 MR. STOPHER: Ms. Flanery, in connection with 17 this case, you have had some schooling with regard to 18 psychology; am I right? 19 JUROR NO. 13: One class. 20 MR. STOPHER: One class. All right. 21 JUROR NO. 13: I was a work studies student in 22 the department of psychology. That was my original major, but 23 I switched majors. I don't think I've had any other classes 24 that would have fallen under psychology. I've had some 25 sociology classes, just liberal arts requirements. 73 1 MR. STOPHER: And I gather that you've also had 2 counseling where you've been the person being counseled in 3 connection with your obsessive compulsive disorder? 4 JUROR NO. 13: For a short time, yes. 5 MR. STOPHER: Okay. Do you have any opinions 6 about counseling and psychotherapy and that sort of thing that 7 grow out of that experience? 8 JUROR NO. 13: I mean, it wasn't a negative 9 experience or anything like that. I mean, not really. 10 MR. STOPHER: Okay. Lastly, you indicated that 11 you have read some things about this case, or about this 12 incident; maybe I should put it that way. 13 JUROR NO. 13: I've heard things on TV. I've 14 seen newspaper articles, articles in magazines. If you ask me 15 to name one of them, no. 16 MR. STOPHER: I notice that you say you can't 17 name them or cite them. 18 JUROR NO. 13: I could say maybe I read one in 19