1 1 NO. 90-CI-06033 JEFFERSON CIRCUIT COURT DIVISION ONE 2 3 4 JOYCE FENTRESS, et al PLAINTIFFS 5 6 VS TRANSCRIPT OF THE PROCEEDINGS 7 8 9 SHEA COMMUNICATIONS, et al DEFENDANTS 10 11 *** 12 13 14 WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 28, 1994 15 VOLUME III 16 17 * * * 18 19 20 21 _____________________________________________________________. REPORTER: JULIA K. McBRIDE 22 Coulter, Shay, McBride & Rice 1221 Starks Building 23 455 South Fourth Avenue Louisville, Kentucky 40202 24 (502) 582-1627 FAX: (502) 587-6299 25 2 1 2 I N D E X 3 4 Voir Dire...............................................4-273 5 Reporter's Certificate.................................. 274 6 7 * * * 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 1 2 A P P E A R A N C E S 3 FOR THE PLAINTIFFS: 4 PAUL L. SMITH 5 Suite 745 Campbell Center II 6 8150 North Central Expressway Dallas, Texas 75206 7 NANCY ZETTLER 8 1405 West Norwell Lane Schaumburg, Illinois 60193 9 10 FOR THE DEFENDANT: 11 EDWARD H. STOPHER Boehl, Stopher & Graves 12 2300 Providian Center Louisville, Kentucky 40202 13 JOE C. FREEMAN, JR. 14 Freeman & Hawkins 4000 One Peachtree Center 15 303 Peachtree Street, N.E. Atlanta, Georgia 30308 16 17 * * * 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 4 1 The Transcript of the Proceedings, taken before 2 The Honorable John Potter in Room 148, Old Jail Office 3 Building, Louisville, Kentucky, commencing on Wednesday, 4 September 28, 1994, at approximately 9:10 A.M., said 5 proceedings occurred as follows: 6 7 * * * 8 9 JUDGE POTTER: You're Mr. Ackermann? 10 JUROR NO. 26: Yes, Your Honor. 11 JUDGE POTTER: I'll remind you you're still 12 under oath, sir. These lawyers may want to ask you a few 13 questions. 14 JUROR NO. 26: Okay. 15 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith, why don't we start -- 16 I forget which one was on deck yesterday, but why don't we 17 start with you. 18 MR. SMITH: Good morning, Mr. Ackermann. 19 JUROR NO. 26: Good morning. 20 MR. SMITH: As I understand it, you are a hog 21 buyer. Have you done that -- basically worked with livestock 22 all your life? 23 JUROR NO. 26: Yes, sir. 24 MR. SMITH: Do you live -- since I'm not from 25 here, do you live in a rural area? 5 1 JUROR NO. 26: Yes, sir. 2 MR. SMITH: And have -- 3 JUROR NO. 26: No. I live in the city. I'm 4 sorry. 5 MR. SMITH: In the city. Live in the city but 6 keep your hogs -- oh, you're a broker? 7 JUROR NO. 26: No. I buy for Monfort Company. 8 I'm a buyer for Monfort Corporation and they slaughter hogs. 9 MR. SMITH: I see. I see. 10 JUROR NO. 26: I'm only licensed to buy 11 slaughtered -- the hogs I buy has to be slaughtered. I can't 12 resell. 13 MR. SMITH: Mr. Ackermann, we have your 14 questionnaire that you filled out here, and in Question 5 I 15 asked whether or not you were of the opinion that the Food and 16 Drug Administration was doing a good job or bad job in 17 protecting consumer health and safety, and you have yes here. 18 Did you mean to indicate you thought they were doing a good 19 job or a bad job? 20 JUROR NO. 26: Yes, sir. Good job. 21 MR. SMITH: All right. Are you of the opinion, 22 sir, that the Food and Drug Administration tests 23 pharmaceutical products themselves? 24 JUROR NO. 26: I think the government is in on 25 that, too, aren't they? I know they run all kinds of tests, 6 1 but it has to be approved by the food and -- 2 MR. SMITH: What's your understanding with who 3 actually runs the tests, the FDA or the drug manufacturer? 4 JUROR NO. 26: I thought the drug manufacturer 5 did it, then it has to be approved by the FDA. 6 MR. SMITH: All right. Do you realize that FDA 7 doesn't do independent testing of the product in the normal 8 drug approval process? 9 JUROR NO. 26: You say they don't? 10 MR. SMITH: Yeah. Did you know that? 11 JUROR NO. 26: No, sir. 12 MR. SMITH: It says here in answer to No. 7 that 13 your daughter works for a pharmaceutical company. 14 JUROR NO. 26: Yes. She's a sales 15 representative. 16 MR. SMITH: She's a sales rep for who? 17 JUROR NO. 26: Berlex. 18 MR. SMITH: Do you know any products that they 19 make? 20 JUROR NO. 26: I really don't. 21 MR. SMITH: Is your daughter married? 22 JUROR NO. 26: Yes, sir. 23 MR. SMITH: And where does she live? 24 JUROR NO. 26: 30 -- I don't know the exact 25 number. I think it's 3709... 7 1 MR. SMITH: Does she live here in Louisville? 2 JUROR NO. 26: Yeah. 3 MR. SMITH: Does she call on doctors? 4 JUROR NO. 26: Bramhurst Road? She just moved 5 there about a month ago; that's the reason I don't know. 6 MR. SMITH: Does she call on doctors and explain 7 the products that Berlex makes? 8 JUROR NO. 26: I'm sure that's her job. And she 9 travels in Kentucky and goes to Bowling Green and I think 10 sometimes Owensboro. 11 MR. SMITH: How long has she been doing that? 12 JUROR NO. 26: I believe it's about five years. 13 MR. SMITH: Has she discussed with you what type 14 of training she's had in doing that? 15 JUROR NO. 26: Well, no, not really. You know, 16 she'd say, "Well, I had to go to Cincinnati for tests." And 17 she had to go to Los Angeles for some kind of meeting here 18 awhile back, and I think she told me she's got one coming up 19 she has to go to Dallas. Other than that, I don't know what 20 she did. 21 MR. SMITH: Does the fact that she works for a 22 pharmaceutical company and Eli Lilly is a defendant here, do 23 you think that would influence your judgment in this case, Mr. 24 Ackermann? 25 JUROR NO. 26: Well, I really didn't know. It 8 1 was -- I thought about it. And, you know, I really can't say 2 for sure. I thought maybe it would, but then I thought, well, 3 I don't know if it would or not, so... 4 MR. SMITH: There may be some testimony in this 5 case about the function of customer service representatives 6 and the people that go out -- and they're called detail 7 people, I think -- that advise doctors concerning new products 8 being developed by a drug company. Do you think you'd have a 9 leaning in favor of these type of people and this group of 10 people individually? 11 JUROR NO. 26: Well, I think it depends on, you 12 know, I don't know if it just -- if there's just a little bit 13 of doubt in my mind which way the verdict should go or 14 something, you know, it might have some, you know. 15 MR. SMITH: You think that you'd start in on 16 this case with a little bit closer to the drug company's side 17 than the other side in this case? 18 JUROR NO. 26: Well, I don't know if I'd do that 19 or not; no, I wouldn't say that. But, you know, it just 20 depends on what I'd have to -- the decision I'd have to make 21 and what have you. I just don't really know. 22 MR. SMITH: I see that somebody in your family 23 has been under a doctor's care for depression? 24 JUROR NO. 26: I didn't go into detail on that, 25 but I had a sister-in-law that committed suicide, and it's 9 1 been 20 years ago. And then my wife has been to a 2 psychiatrist but she wasn't taking any medicine, just for, you 3 know, speech therapy -- not speech therapy, or whatever they 4 call it. 5 MR. FREEMAN: Psychotherapy? 6 MS. ZETTLER: Psychotherapy? 7 JUROR NO. 26: Yeah. 8 MR. SMITH: There's going to be a lot of 9 discussion about suicide and depression in this case, Mr. 10 Ackermann. Do you think that's going to bring back memories 11 that are going to influence your verdict in this case? What 12 we're looking for, Mr. Ackermann, is somebody that will give 13 both sides an even break here; somebody without any 14 preconceived ideas, without any particular experience in this 15 area. We've just got to look to you, and you've got to be the 16 one that tells us. If you've got some doubt, this is your 17 opportunity to let us know. 18 JUROR NO. 26: Well, that's the reason I put 19 that in there about the pharmaceutical company. And I do have 20 a little doubt that maybe I could make the right decision. I 21 really do. 22 MR. SMITH: All right. You also have three 23 doctors and three nurses in your family? 24 JUROR NO. 26: Yeah. 25 MR. SMITH: It says here that you might have a 10 1 problem, in fact, in making a right judgment if you were here 2 in the jury? 3 JUROR NO. 26: Yeah. 4 MR. SMITH: And you think that based on all of 5 these experiences, and we appreciate you telling us about 6 this, that probably your feelings would spill over into your 7 verdict in this case? 8 JUROR NO. 26: Very possible. 9 MR. SMITH: That's all I have. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher? 11 MR. STOPHER: No questions, Your Honor. Thank 12 you, Mr. Ackermann. 13 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Ackermann, I'm going to 14 excuse you for the rest of today and ask you to come back at 15 9:00 tomorrow morning. I'm going to give you the admonition 16 I've given you before and it's extremely important. Do not 17 talk to anybody about this case. Do not let anybody talk to 18 you, including other jurors and the press. You're excused 19 till 9:00 tomorrow morning. 20 JUROR NO. 26: Thank you-all very much. 21 JUDGE POTTER: Anybody have any motions they 22 want to make? 23 MR. SMITH: Move to strike Mr. Ackermann, Your 24 Honor. 25 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher? 11 1 MR. STOPHER: No objection, Judge. 2 JUDGE POTTER: We ought to put a little light 3 under the table so that when Mr. Stopher or Mr. Smith have 4 reached the point where they're not going to object, you can 5 just push the button, the light will come on and everybody 6 will know it's time to go on. 7 MR. SMITH: After yesterday I didn't know how 8 far I needed to go. 9 JUDGE POTTER: This is Number 135. You're Mr. 10 Mark Bowling? 11 JUROR NO. 135: Yes, Your Honor. 12 JUDGE POTTER: I'll remind you you're still 13 under oath, Mr. Bowling. These gentlemen would like to ask 14 you some questions. 15 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher? 16 MR. STOPHER: Mr. Bowling, my name is Ed 17 Stopher. I just wanted to find the questionnaire here a 18 second because I had some follow-up questions based on the 19 questionnaire. You indicated, sir, that your wife has taken 20 an antidepressant medication at some time. I don't want to 21 ask you anything about your wife any more than you want to 22 have to answer, but I think you can understand the reason why 23 we need to know that in the context of this case. Could you 24 give us some details about what antidepressant she's taken and 25 how long she's taken it? 12 1 JUROR NO. 135: The first time she -- it was 2 prescribed to her was after the birth of our youngest child. 3 It had something to do with the pregnancy. She said it was 4 common to be depressed after that. And she was prescribed a 5 prescription and I asked her about that, and it wasn't Prozac 6 but it was -- she didn't recall the name of it, but she didn't 7 even finish taking the prescription. But it was just that 8 one. And I think there may have been another time she went 9 again and I think the doctor maybe even gave her, like, some 10 samples. I don't recall the name of those, either, but it was 11 pre... 12 MR. STOPHER: All right. How long ago do you 13 think this was, the pregnancy? You can probably remember 14 the -- 15 JUROR NO. 135: Probably about -- my son's about 16 two and a half years old, so probably two years ago. 17 MR. STOPHER: It was during pregnancy or after 18 pregnancy? 19 JUROR NO. 135: No. It was after the baby. 20 MR. STOPHER: After the birth? Okay, sir. Has 21 she been under the care of a psychiatrist before or after 22 that? 23 JUROR NO. 135: No. 24 Q. This was just her obstetrician or gynecologist 25 that was working with her? 13 1 JUROR NO. 135: I think so. 2 MR. STOPHER: Did she have a good or a bad 3 experience with that antidepressant? 4 JUROR NO. 135: No. It was -- 5 MR. STOPHER: Went like it was supposed to go, 6 as far as you know? 7 JUROR NO. 135: Yes. 8 MR. STOPHER: Okay. And on occasions since then 9 someone may have given her some samples to take? 10 JUROR NO. 135: That may have been maybe a year, 11 year and a half ago. I'm not sure. 12 MR. STOPHER: Okay. All right. Was she having 13 a problem with depression then? 14 JUROR NO. 135: Yes. 15 MR. STOPHER: Was it still after the birth of 16 the son or unrelated to that? 17 JUROR NO. 135: Yes. I'm not for sure what it 18 was related to. Maybe marriage problems or something of that 19 nature, I'm not for sure. 20 MR. STOPHER: Again, I don't want to inquire, 21 but this case is about depression and it's about 22 antidepressants. But has that experience that you have had 23 through your wife given you certain insights or views on 24 either the mental illness of depression or on antidepressants 25 as a treatment for those that you're going to carry into the 14 1 jury room to decide this case, sir? 2 JUROR NO. 135: I don't think it would. I don't 3 see why it would. 4 MR. STOPHER: In this case, sir, the contention 5 is going to be that Prozac, which is an antidepressant, made 6 Mr. Wesbecker become homicidal and want to kill people. Would 7 your wife's experience with the antidepressant tend to make 8 you want to believe that claim more than otherwise? 9 JUROR NO. 135: No. 10 MR. STOPHER: I notice, sir, that you own 11 several weapons, including a 30/30 and -- I'm not sure -- 12 Marlin rifle? 13 JUROR NO. 135: Yes. It's a hunting rifle. 14 MR. STOPHER: A 50-caliber CVA muzzle loaded 15 rifle. I'm not even familiar with that one. 16 JUROR NO. 135: It's just an old-time rifle that 17 would be loaded -- 18 MR. STOPHER: It's one of the ones with a ram 19 rod? 20 JUROR NO. 135: Right. 21 MR. STOPHER: I take it that you own these to 22 hunt, primarily? 23 JUROR NO. 135: Yes, sir. 24 MR. STOPHER: You're a hunter? 25 JUROR NO. 135: Yes, sir. 15 1 MR. STOPHER: You don't use them for target 2 shooting or any kind of sharp-shooting competition, 3 riflemanship or anything like that? 4 JUROR NO. 135: No. 5 MR. STOPHER: Do you know of -- and only you can 6 answer this, sir, but if you're selected to sit on this jury 7 and you go back to the jury room and there are 11 other people 8 in the room and you're trying to decide the issues in this 9 case, and you close your eyes and you're trying to decide 10 which way to vote, is there something about you or about what 11 you think that's going to make you want to cast your vote for 12 one side or the other, that somebody has an edge in your mind 13 on some issue in this case that the other side does not have? 14 JUROR NO. 135: No. I'd have to wait and hear 15 the evidence. 16 MR. STOPHER: Okay. But you don't go into this 17 with any idea that one side or the other ought to win or lose? 18 JUROR NO. 135: No. 19 MR. STOPHER: Those are all the questions I 20 have, Judge. 21 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith? 22 MR. SMITH: Mr. Bowling, there are several 23 different classifications of antidepressants, one is called an 24 SSRI, which Prozac belongs to, and one is called a tricyclic 25 antidepressant, and there's another class that I can't 16 1 pronounce. 2 Do you know which class of antidepressants it 3 was that your wife was taking, even though you don't know the 4 name? 5 JUROR NO. 135: No. I don't know what it would 6 be. I guess it would be a mild type. It didn't seem that bad 7 to me and she didn't have to take it very long. 8 MR. SMITH: As I understand it, she didn't even 9 finish the prescription? 10 JUROR NO. 135: That's correct. 11 MR. SMITH: Are you of the impression, Mr. 12 Bowling, that the Food and Drug Administration does 13 independent testing of prescription medications before they're 14 released for sale? 15 JUROR NO. 135: Do I... 16 MR. SMITH: I'll say that again. Is it your 17 understanding that the United States FDA does independent 18 testing on prescription products before they're released for 19 sale to the public? 20 JUROR NO. 135: I believe they do. 21 MR. SMITH: Would the fact that they don't -- 22 the evidence in this case will be that the FDA did not test 23 itself Prozac, but relied on Lilly to inform them of any 24 testing that might have been done affect your judgment in this 25 case in any way? 17 1 JUROR NO. 135: I don't think so. 2 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Mr. Bowling. 3 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Bowling, I'm going to excuse 4 you till 9:00 tomorrow morning. I got you all the way down 5 here for five minutes. You should be lucky your name begins 6 with a B; if it was a Z you'd be here all day. At 9:00 7 tomorrow morning be over in the jury assembly area where you 8 were. I give you the same admonition as I gave you before. 9 Do not let anybody talk with you about the case, including 10 other jurors or newspapers or whatnot and do not form any 11 opinions on it. You can stand in recess till 9:00 tomorrow 12 morning. 13 JUROR NO. 135: Thank you. 14 JUDGE POTTER: You're Mr. William Brown; is that 15 right, sir? 16 JUROR NO. 120: That's right. 17 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Would you have a seat, 18 sir. I'll remind you you're still under oath. These 19 attorneys may want to ask you a few questions. Mr. Smith? 20 MR. SMITH: Mr. Brown, do I understand it that 21 you have had Prozac yourself? 22 JUROR NO. 120: Yes. 23 MR. SMITH: And you had a good experience with 24 Prozac? 25 JUROR NO. 120: I'd say fair. 18 1 MR. SMITH: Do you have a high opinion of Prozac 2 as a drug? 3 JUROR NO. 120: I don't have much of an opinion 4 either way. 5 MR. SMITH: Well, based on what you have -- 6 JUROR NO. 120: Well, based on what I have, I 7 think it did me some good. 8 MR. SMITH: All right. And do you think what 9 you know about Prozac would give you some edge on other 10 members of the jury in this case, Mr. Brown? 11 JUROR NO. 120: I don't know. 12 MR. SMITH: You think that might influence your 13 judgment in this case? 14 JUROR NO. 120: Possible. 15 MR. SMITH: That you'd come in with a more 16 favorable opinion of Prozac than the ordinary juror that 17 hasn't taken Prozac? 18 JUROR NO. 120: Yes. I probably would. 19 MR. SMITH: Do you think that that would affect 20 your judgment in this case? 21 JUROR NO. 120: Very possible. 22 MR. SMITH: In your jury deliberations? 23 JUROR NO. 120: Possible. 24 MR. SMITH: And certainly we're all the product 25 of our experiences, but do you think that that's going to 19 1 influence you in your deliberations as a juror in this case? 2 JUROR NO. 120: It's possible. 3 MR. SMITH: Probable? 4 JUROR NO. 120: Probable. 5 MR. SMITH: All right. As I understand it, you 6 work with a man or have a good friend by the name of Mr. 7 Campfield? 8 JUROR NO. 120: Yes. 9 MR. SMITH: And he works where, sir? 10 JUROR NO. 120: He works down in Riverport. 11 MR. SMITH: Riverport Imaging? 12 JUROR NO. 120: (Nods head affirmatively). 13 MR. SMITH: Is it your understanding that the 14 same man that owns Riverport Imaging owned Standard Gravure? 15 JUROR NO. 120: I don't know who owns what. 16 MR. SMITH: When did you last talk to Mr. 17 Campfield? 18 JUROR NO. 120: Two or three weeks ago, I guess. 19 MR. SMITH: Have you ever heard Mr. Campfield 20 express an opinion concerning this case? 21 JUROR NO. 120: No. 22 MR. SMITH: Have you expressed an opinion to 23 him? 24 JUROR NO. 120: No. 25 MR. SMITH: Have you ever discussed Joseph 20 1 Wesbecker or Prozac with Mr. Campfield? 2 JUROR NO. 120: (Shakes head negatively). 3 MR. SMITH: Have you heard anything he said 4 about Standard Gravure, Riverport Imaging, Prozac or Joseph 5 Wesbecker? 6 JUROR NO. 120: No. 7 MR. SMITH: You also have a son that took 8 Prozac? 9 JUROR NO. 120: Yes. 10 MR. SMITH: And his experience was good with 11 Prozac? 12 JUROR NO. 120: As far as I know, yes. 13 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Mr. Brown. 14 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher? 15 MR. STOPHER: No questions, Your Honor. 16 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much, sir. I'm 17 going to excuse you and I'm going to let you go until tomorrow 18 morning, if you will report back to the jury pool room at 19 9:00. Don't let anybody communicate or talk with you about 20 the case, that includes the other jurors, the newspapers, 21 whatever. See you at 9:00, sir. 22 JUROR NO. 120: All right. 23 MR. SMITH: We move to strike Mr. Brown for 24 cause, Your Honor. 25 MR. FREEMAN: We agree. 21 1 JUDGE POTTER: You're Mr. Robert Browne with an 2 E? 3 JUROR NO. 92: That's correct, Your Honor. 4 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Browne, I remind you you're 5 still under oath. These gentlemen may want to ask you a few 6 questions. Mr. Stopher? 7 MR. STOPHER: Mr. Browne, my name is Ed Stopher. 8 JUROR NO. 92: How are you? 9 MR. STOPHER: I recall yesterday that you 10 discussed with us the -- I believe it was yesterday. The days 11 begin to run together after a while, but the bankruptcy issue 12 and so forth. I take it that -- and I couldn't quite read all 13 of the letters here on your occupation. I take it that you do 14 have something to do, then, with credit management for Apparel 15 Company? 16 JUROR NO. 92: That's correct. It's the Apparel 17 Group. We have six companies under one group and I'm in 18 charge of credit, collection and accounts receivable. What I 19 brought up, a large customer who owes us a little over 20 $300,000 filed a Chapter 11, and we would like to participate 21 in the case. And I faxed the trustee to get admittance to the 22 unsecured creditors committee. We're either the largest or 23 second largest creditor. It's important to us but I know this 24 is important, too. 25 MR. STOPHER: Well, I appreciate on behalf of 22 1 everybody your noticing that and saying that. It is 2 important, and that's the reason why we're asking you these 3 questions, sir. I take it that in your routine job, sir, you 4 deal with credit management and with numbers. Is that a fair 5 statement, sir? 6 JUROR NO. 92: Very fair, yes. 7 MR. STOPHER: I take it that you are comfortable 8 with numbers and making mathematical calculations in 9 connection with your job? 10 JUROR NO. 92: Yes. 11 MR. STOPHER: That's a fair statement, sir? 12 JUROR NO. 92: Yes. Very much so. 13 MR. STOPHER: In connection with this case, sir, 14 I noticed on the questionnaire that you indicated that you 15 have not been involved in any sort of lawsuit or litigation. 16 Would that include the litigation concerning your work? 17 JUROR NO. 92: I thought that meant personal. 18 I've never been sued or sued anybody, but I have been 19 witnesses in cases where we're suing people for money. 20 MR. STOPHER: I assumed that that's what you 21 meant and I was kind of surprised at the answer. 22 JUROR NO. 92: I never even thought it of it the 23 way you're thinking of it. 24 MR. STOPHER: Just finally, sir, you know now a 25 good deal about this case. You've indicated that you've seen 23 1 some TV news broadcasts which I assume relate to Prozac and 2 perhaps to the Standard Gravure shooting through the years? 3 JUROR NO. 92: That's correct. 4 MR. STOPHER: You've lived here for 27 years, so 5 this is not a new revelation to you, sir? 6 JUROR NO. 92: That's right. 7 MR. STOPHER: What everybody in this case is 8 looking for and what everybody is, of course, entitled to is 9 someone who will decide the case only on the basis of the 10 evidence as it's heard in the courtroom and on the 11 instructions as they're given by Judge Potter at the end of 12 the case. 13 JUROR NO. 92: Yes. I understand. 14 MR. STOPHER: Do you know of any reason, sir, 15 why you can't sit and decide the case based on only those two 16 things? 17 JUROR NO. 92: No, I don't. 18 MR. STOPHER: Is there anything else that 19 influences your judgment in any way for anybody or against 20 anybody? 21 JUROR NO. 92: I don't believe there is. I 22 don't have any opinions one way or the other about the case. 23 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith? 24 MR. SMITH: I'm Paul Smith, and I represent the 25 plaintiffs in this case. 24 1 JUROR NO. 92: How are you? 2 MR. SMITH: Somehow the last question wasn't 3 attached to our copy. It might not have been attached to your 4 copy. 5 MR. STOPHER: I don't have it, either. 6 MS. ZETTLER: It's attached to the original. 7 MR. SMITH: The original says that you answered 8 no, that you don't have any training in the fields of law 9 enforcement or criminology? 10 JUROR NO. 92: That's correct. 11 MR. SMITH: Do you have any preconceived idea, 12 Mr. Browne, in connection with what causes people to be 13 violent, and do you have any particular insight or judgment as 14 to factors that cause people to become violent? 15 JUROR NO. 92: No, I don't. I've never been 16 violent and I don't understand violence. I have no idea what 17 would cause it. 18 MR. SMITH: Have you -- do you have any 19 knowledge concerning the FDA approval process in connection 20 with prescription medication? 21 JUROR NO. 92: Only what I read, and I do read a 22 lot and I do have a good retentive memory, but I do know that 23 the drug has to be approved to go to market. I'm not sure of 24 all the exact reasons they use. 25 MR. SMITH: Did you know that the FDA doesn't 25 1 test drugs themselves? 2 JUROR NO. 92: Does not test drugs? 3 MR. SMITH: Right. 4 JUROR NO. 92: No, I did not. 5 MR. SMITH: And that they rely on the 6 manufacturer to test the drugs? 7 JUROR NO. 92: No. I wasn't aware of that. 8 MR. SMITH: And did you know that the FDA didn't 9 test Prozac themselves, but relied entirely on what Lilly 10 supplied them concerning information in this trial? 11 JUROR NO. 92: I have no knowledge of that at 12 all. 13 MR. SMITH: Did you know that the FDA 14 regulations in connection with the approval of pharmaceutical 15 products are only minimum standards concerning safety? 16 MR. FREEMAN: I don't know if that's a fair 17 question, Your Honor. 18 JUDGE POTTER: I'm going to sustain the 19 objection. 20 MR. SMITH: Do you know of any reason why you 21 can't be a fair and impartial juror in this case? 22 JUROR NO. 92: No, I don't. 23 JUDGE POTTER: I'm going to excuse you and it 24 will be until 9:00 tomorrow morning, where you'll go back to 25 the jury pool where you were this morning. Do not talk to 26 1 anybody about this case and don't let anybody communicate with 2 you about it through the TV or any other way. You can go home 3 right now, but be back over there at 9:00 tomorrow morning. 4 JUROR NO. 92: Okay. Thank you. 5 JUDGE POTTER: If anybody -- if it bothers 6 anybody, I will tell you that we will be taking off -- I don't 7 know, whatever Friday it is, all day instead of half a day if 8 Mr. Burks is on the jury. Don't tell him that, but I've made 9 that decision when I didn't strike him. 10 I remind you you're still under oath, sir. 11 These people may want to ask you a few questions. 12 JUROR NO. 121: Yes, sir. 13 MR. SMITH: Am I first this time? 14 JUDGE POTTER: Yes, sir. 15 MR. SMITH: We're alternating. 16 JUROR NO. 121: I understand. 17 MR. SMITH: Colonel, I see that your career with 18 the military is in the military police; is that right? 19 JUROR NO. 121: Yes. That's correct. 20 MR. SMITH: And I assume that you have 21 particular criminology courses at West Point? How did that 22 work? 23 JUROR NO. 121: Well, I -- in the mid '70s, I 24 was a captain and instructor at West Point but took -- at the 25 time a military police officer but teaching at West Point -- 27 1 but took a Master's case in criminology from the City 2 University of New York at John Jay and commuted about 50 miles 3 to take that course. 4 MR. SMITH: So your Master's is in criminology? 5 JUROR NO. 121: That's right. 6 MR. SMITH: Do you consider yourself to have 7 extraordinary knowledge of violent crimes, what causes people 8 to become violent and things of that nature, as opposed to the 9 administration of law enforcement and things of that nature? 10 JUROR NO. 121: Well, you know, I guess, you 11 know, thinking about environment and all the kinds of things 12 you think about in the study of crime and demographics and 13 economic kinds of situations, there are trends there that I 14 probably recognize in dealing with situations. I couldn't 15 tell you any particular details in terms of that. 16 MR. SMITH: Do you have any preconceived ideas, 17 Colonel, in connection with whether or not a drug could cause 18 an individual to commit a violent act? 19 JUROR NO. 121: I really don't know. I have no 20 idea. 21 MR. SMITH: Have you taken any courses in the 22 effect of illegal drugs in creating violent situations or 23 things of that nature? 24 JUROR NO. 121: Only, you know, the standard 25 stuff. In the army, you know, alcohol and marijuana, that 28 1 kind of stuff that soldiers in that particular age group might 2 have access to. 3 MR. SMITH: Have you been stationed in a variety 4 of places, Colonel? 5 JUROR NO. 121: Yes, sir. 6 MR. SMITH: Have you ever been stationed in 7 Indianapolis, Indiana? 8 JUROR NO. 121: I have. 9 MR. SMITH: When were you in Indianapolis? 10 JUROR NO. 121: In the fall of 1983, for three 11 months. 12 MR. SMITH: And what were you doing then? 13 JUROR NO. 121: In the army you must do two 14 things. Initially, and my primary area was to be a military 15 policeman. The second area that I chose was to be a public 16 information officer, and the public information school is at 17 Fort Benjamin Harrison, at least it was. I guess they've 18 relocated. After that training I went to the Pentagon as a 19 major, spent a year. I went to the military police school at 20 Fort McClellan, Alabama. Went to the War College at Carlisle 21 Barracks for a year and then back to the Pentagon as an 22 executive officer to a two-star chief of public information 23 from 1987 to 1989. 24 MR. SMITH: When you were in Indianapolis, did 25 you come to know or see anything about Eli Lilly and Company? 29 1 That's where they're based. 2 JUROR NO. 121: Only that they were there. 3 MR. SMITH: They've got a big building with a 4 big sign on top of it? 5 JUROR NO. 121: That's about it. 6 MR. SMITH: You don't have any extraordinary 7 knowledge or anything of that nature? 8 JUROR NO. 121: No, sir. 9 MR. SMITH: Thank you, sir. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher? 11 MR. STOPHER: On the questionnaire, sir, you 12 indicated that you do have a bias or prejudice, and it says 13 "for or against the pharmaceutical industry," and you answered 14 that you do and that it's the price of the product. Would you 15 explain that bias or prejudice to me, sir? 16 JUROR NO. 121: Well, I guess it's probably a 17 little -- in my estimation a little high for -- and especially 18 for the people who need it, that for whatever reason need 19 drugs daily and, depending on where they are on the economic 20 strata, I would say that drugs for their benefit are probably 21 a little bit too high. And for those of us that can afford 22 the drug, yes, it's okay; but for those who need the drug that 23 can't afford it, there ought to be a sliding scale in there 24 for those people. 25 MR. SMITH: If you were told, sir, that Prozac 30 1 is one of the drugs that is not inexpensive, that it costs 2 $1.75 approximately per capsule, is that going to trigger that 3 bias or prejudice in this case? 4 JUROR NO. 121: Well, I guess it could. You 5 know, I made the statement. If it falls in that category. I 6 don't know the cost of drugs. I only take aspirin and only 7 when I have to then, but... 8 MR. STOPHER: Do you think maybe that the price 9 of that product if it is in that expensive range may cause you 10 to lean a little bit against the pharmaceutical company in 11 this case, sir? 12 JUROR NO. 121: It could. And I guess -- 13 depending on, I guess, who needs it, I mean, what are the 14 circumstances of people or persons that need it. Again, it's 15 all related to I guess where they are in terms of economics 16 and so forth. If we can afford it in this room, it's one 17 thing, but for those who can't afford it it's another issue, I 18 guess I would say. 19 MR. STOPHER: What about someone who's 20 unemployed? Would that tend to make you lean even further 21 against the pharmaceutical company? 22 JUROR NO. 121: Probably, yes. 23 MR. STOPHER: You also indicated, sir, that you 24 have a brother who was involved in some clinical trials on a 25 medication relating -- 31 1 JUROR NO. 121: He was never in a trial. He, at 2 a very young age -- for sure as a baby -- was asthmatic. And 3 I guess maybe at the age of, you know, five or six or seven 4 was given drugs to relieve his condition, and he subsequently 5 I guess at the age of about maybe ten or eleven became a 6 juvenile diabetic. And, of course, there's no scientific 7 basis in my family, but we all believe that -- and at least I 8 think my mother believes -- that the reason for his diabetes, 9 which to this day he's lost an eye and suffers the way you do 10 as a diabetic, it was related to those early drugs in his 11 young life. 12 MR. STOPHER: We all sympathize with that 13 disease and the people that suffer from it. I have a son with 14 that condition. Is your brother still alive, sir? 15 JUROR NO. 121: He is. He's very active. 16 MR. STOPHER: Do you recall what the asthmatic 17 medication was, sir, that triggered that reaction in him? 18 JUROR NO. 121: I have no idea. No. No, sir. 19 MR. STOPHER: Was it a prescription medication? 20 JUROR NO. 121: I think it was. 21 MR. STOPHER: And in this case, sir, there's 22 going to be a contention that a prescription medication caused 23 an unusual reaction or a reaction in Joseph Wesbecker and made 24 him homicidal. Would the fact that a member of your family 25 had taken another medication and had a very bad reaction that 32 1 has obviously changed his life and perhaps yours and the rest 2 of your family, as well, would that make you tend to want to 3 think that maybe there is a connection there in this case? 4 JUROR NO. 121: I think so. I think about it 5 quite a bit with him. 6 MR. STOPHER: You think that may cause you to 7 lean toward the proposition that maybe a reaction to a drug 8 can cause that sort of behavior? 9 JUROR NO. 121: Well, you know, I can only speak 10 from my experience with my brother and what he has gone 11 through. You know, as a family we have no other information 12 about whatever, but only that he -- and we have no scientific 13 information to say one thing or the other. 14 But I guess the other piece that I'm influenced 15 by, of course, is my wife who is -- I mentioned yesterday is a 16 registered nurse who tends to stay very close to 17 prescriptions. And throughout the family, whether it's on my 18 family or her family, wherever they are, long distance, what 19 are you taking and oh, let-me-look-it-up kind of thing, and if 20 you do take it this is some of the effects, at least in this 21 book that I have, that you should be concerned about. So, you 22 know, I'm sensitive to that based on my brother and my wife's, 23 you know, feeling about it. 24 MR. STOPHER: Mr. Burks, if at the end of this 25 case it's even, you can't decide whether or not it caused it 33 1 or not, do you think your experience where your brother and 2 your family's belief with your brother, as well as your wife's 3 concerns about side effects of drugs to the point that she -- 4 I think you used the word "religiously" consults the PDR, do 5 you think, sir, in the interest of fairness that that might 6 tip you into believing that there may have been a reaction 7 here, that those experiences and that insight and those 8 beliefs, whether they're scientific or not, may influence your 9 judgment in this case? 10 JUROR NO. 121: Well, you know, just thinking 11 about it right now, I would say that just based on all of that 12 we just talked about, my brother and my wife and all of that, 13 I'd probably lean to that side right now. But the other side 14 of that is not having all the information about what a drug 15 does or doesn't do. But right now, yeah, I would say that I 16 lean toward not knowing what drugs do to you. 17 Q. In other words, you would not be starting 18 exactly even; you would tend to believe based on this 19 experience and your wife's information that there may be 20 something to the claim of reaction to a drug? 21 JUROR NO. 121: To a drug, yes; that's a true 22 statement -- a fair statement, rather. 23 MR. STOPHER: I think those are all the 24 questions I have, sir. 25 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Burks, I'm going to excuse 34 1 you till 9:00 tomorrow morning, if you will be back in the 2 jury pool office at 9:00 tomorrow morning. I remind you about 3 my admonition, don't let anybody communicate with you about 4 this case, your wife or other members of your family, and 5 don't watch TV or read any newspapers about this matter. 6 Thank you very much. 7 MR. STOPHER: Judge, we make a motion to strike 8 Mr. Burks. He's obviously a very fine and very unusual man 9 with a great history, but he has an experience that influences 10 his judgment going into this, which I guess I identify with. 11 If I thought I could find a drug or some chemical that caused 12 my son's diabetes, I'd go after them with a vengeance. And I 13 think that that -- 14 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith, do you have any 15 objection? 16 MR. SMITH: I wouldn't think he's any more 17 biased than an individual who had a -- 18 JUDGE POTTER: I couldn't tell from what you 19 were doing whether you wanted him on or off. Let Mr. Stopher 20 finish. 21 MR. STOPHER: He clearly said he starts this 22 race with one side being ahead and leaning toward the 23 proposition that drugs will cause an unusual reaction, and 24 it's based on that life experience which he cannot put out of 25 his mind, as well as the information that he's gotten from his 35 1 wife through the years. So the rule is that somebody that has 2 a predisposition, a prejudice or an idea that gives one side 3 an advantage over the other, that should be grounds for 4 striking for cause, and we make the motion on that ground. 5 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith, what do you say? 6 MR. SMITH: I think he said that he could listen 7 to the evidence and base his verdict on the evidence, Number 8 One. Number Two, I don't think his bias is any more than an 9 individual who's taken Prozac and had a good experience with 10 Prozac. 11 MS. ZETTLER: For instance, Mrs. Gregory. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Well, each one has to be decided 13 on its own because I might go back and, as a matter of fact, I 14 came in at six o'clock this morning and spent some time in the 15 library, thinking, trying to find some cases on people who use 16 the product that's the subject of a litigation, and I wasn't 17 very successful. My clerk's out now trying to find some 18 things. So I don't want to -- each one is going to stand on 19 its own. I don't want this guy to stay in because the Prozac 20 people stay in, because then there would be the argument if I 21 change my mind on that, and I might, I'd go back and do other 22 things. 23 Mr. Stopher, he's kind of in the category that 24 said these are beliefs he holds. And on one with Mr. Smith, 25 you said you didn't ask him the question if I gave him the 36 1 instruction to put that aside could he go ahead and rise above 2 his tentative feelings here. And, quite frankly, I think he 3 was a lot more careful to define what his position is here 4 than most jurors would be, and I interpret him to mean that 5 this is without the information where he stands now. And he 6 does have a slight leaning this way, but there's no indication 7 that if he's on the jury he couldn't put that aside and follow 8 the instructions, so I'm going to deny the motion to strike 9 him for cause. 10 JUDGE POTTER: You're Mr. Burtis; is that right, 11 sir? 12 JUROR NO. 51: That is correct. 13 JUDGE POTTER: I remind you you're still under 14 oath. 15 Mr. Stopher? 16 MR. STOPHER: Mr. Burtis, my name is Ed Stopher. 17 Let me ask you just a couple of questions, sir. If I 18 understand correctly, you're involved as the office manager 19 with a plastics company; am I understanding correctly? 20 JUROR NO. 51: That's correct. 21 MR. STOPHER: Is that a manufacturing 22 installation or a sales and distribution? 23 JUROR NO. 51: We're a distributor, yes, sales 24 office. 25 MR. STOPHER: And I take it from your 37 1 questionnaire that your father and your brothers are involved 2 in hunting and one of them is a collector, but that you 3 yourself don't share those hobbies? 4 JUROR NO. 51: Right. Yeah. I'm from a rural 5 area originally. Once I moved to the city there was no need 6 for me to own a gun. 7 MR. STOPHER: Okay. You indicated also, sir, 8 that you've known two people that have taken Prozac, but you 9 said that they were not good friends of yours and that you 10 didn't know either one of them was taking it at the time and 11 found out about it later; am I right? 12 JUROR NO. 51: Right. 13 MR. STOPHER: I also understand from what you 14 wrote that you don't know what their experience was with 15 Prozac? 16 JUROR NO. 51: Right. I know nothing more than 17 who they were and that was it. I didn't know anything 18 personal about them. 19 MR. STOPHER: Did you -- in connection with the 20 questionnaire, you indicated that you believe that the FDA is 21 doing what they were designed to do, sir. Do you have any 22 particular information about the FDA in connection with your 23 work or any other experience? 24 JUROR NO. 51: No, other than we provide 25 plastics that has to be FDA approved or USDA, or for different 38 1 organizations and I have to provide a lot of forms and stuff 2 for the manufacturers, and I know that there's a lot of -- I 3 know the agencies were designed to basically police these 4 things and, you know, in every situation I guess there's only 5 so much you can or can't do. 6 MR. STOPHER: Do you yourself in connection with 7 your work at the plastics company supply information directly 8 to the FDA? 9 JUROR NO. 51: No. We're just a distributor of 10 raw materials. 11 MR. STOPHER: So you don't have any direct 12 contact one way or the other with the FDA, you just are 13 related to the sales and distribution of products that may 14 have been approved by the FDA? 15 JUROR NO. 51: Right. When I provide materials 16 to my customers, I have to provide paperwork that's prepared 17 for us by the manufacturer, so I'm basically just seeing all 18 this crossing my desk and making sure it gets to the right 19 people. 20 MR. STOPHER: Okay. In this case, sir, there's 21 going to be a lot of evidence about the FDA and about its 22 processes relating to the approval of drugs, and particularly 23 to Prozac. Would your experience or your work connections 24 influence your judgment as to who ought to win or lose on 25 issues that relate to FDA approval and whether or not it was 39 1 done properly? 2 JUROR NO. 51: No. No. I don't see how they 3 could. 4 MR. STOPHER: You'd come in and decide the case 5 based only on the evidence and the laws given to you by the 6 Court without any preconceived ideas about the FDA or their 7 approval processes? 8 JUROR NO. 51: That's correct. I think the 9 reason I put that is I guess we are basically taught that the 10 government agencies are going to do their job, what they're 11 designed for, so it's never been a concern personally for me. 12 MR. STOPHER: I notice, sir, that on answer to 13 Question No. 26, you stated that you don't have any opinion 14 about whether or not Prozac caused Mr. Wesbecker to become 15 homicidal and to commit these acts on September 14, 1989. Is 16 that still true, sir? 17 JUROR NO. 51: From just media that I heard when 18 it happened, I don't know the man or anything connected to 19 him, so I would have no way of making that judgment. 20 MR. STOPHER: I believe those are all the 21 questions I have, sir. 22 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith? 23 MR. SMITH: Mr. Burtis, I'm Paul Smith; I 24 represent the plaintiffs. I see that your education is a 25 Bachelor of Science Degree? 40 1 JUROR NO. 51: Of applied science. I went to 2 ITT in Indianapolis; it's a technical school. 3 MR. SMITH: And you got a degree in robotics? 4 JUROR NO. 51: That's correct. 5 MR. SMITH: Is that what I think it is? 6 JUROR NO. 51: Yes. I have an associate's 7 degree in electronics and a bachelor in robotics, and it has 8 nothing to do with what I do at my job. 9 MR. SMITH: Did you design or test products in 10 school or after you got out of school? 11 JUROR NO. 51: No, not anything other than what 12 was in the book that we had to do. 13 MR. SMITH: How long were you in Indianapolis? 14 JUROR NO. 51: For about 16, 17 months. 15 MR. SMITH: Driving into Indianapolis you see a 16 big sign that says Lilly out there near town? 17 JUROR NO. 51: Right. 18 MR. SMITH: Anything about going to school in 19 Indianapolis where Lilly is home based that would affect your 20 judgment in this case, Mr. Burtis? 21 JUROR NO. 51: No. I was there just to go to 22 school and moved shortly after I got out of the school. 23 MR. SMITH: Have you been with this same company 24 that you're with, Cadillac Plastics, ever since you got out of 25 school? 41 1 JUROR NO. 51: No. This is the third company 2 I've worked for. 3 MR. SMITH: Can you tell me what other two 4 companies you've worked for since you got out of school? 5 JUROR NO. 51: My first company was Scott 6 Industrial in Indianapolis. I worked for them for a couple -- 7 two, three, months and then they transferred me down to the 8 Louisville office. They're industrial distributors for air 9 compressors and hydraulic equipment. I was there for three 10 years. I left there and went to a company called Air 11 Dynamics, and I had always done office work and inside sales 12 and that type stuff. I went to an outside sales position and 13 worked for them for about six months and realized that that 14 was not my place in life. And, so, that's when I went to 15 Cadillac and went back to being on the inside. 16 MR. SMITH: You're not involved in the actual 17 production or testing of products; you're the office manager? 18 JUROR NO. 51: That's correct. 19 MR. SMITH: And who do they supply plastics? 20 JUROR NO. 51: Locally is the only people I 21 would know about. We've got offices all over the United 22 States, but I don't know even who their customers are. We 23 sell to all the large companies and to individuals. 24 MR. SMITH: What kind of plastic? Is this raw 25 plastic that's made into something else? 42 1 JUROR NO. 51: It's classified as sheet, rod and 2 tool material. That would be like lexon sheet, plexiglass 3 sheet. 4 MR. SMITH: Do you know of any reason why you 5 couldn't be a fair and impartial juror in this case? 6 JUROR NO. 51: No, I don't. 7 JUDGE POTTER: I'm going to excuse you still 8 9:00 tomorrow morning. You leave here and go home and be in 9 the jury pool area at 9:00. I emphasize my prior admonition. 10 Don't let anybody talk to you about this case, don't discuss 11 it with anybody, including your other jurors. Thank you very 12 much, sir. 13 Mr. Smith, Mr. Stopher, we kind of need to pick 14 up the pace. 15 You're Mr. Carrell? 16 JUROR NO. 216: Yes, sir. 17 JUDGE POTTER: I remind you you're still under 18 oath, sir. These gentlemen may have some questions for you. 19 Mr. Smith? 20 MR. SMITH: Mr. Carrell, you stated in your 21 questionnaire -- we appreciate you filling it out -- that your 22 opinion is that people in society don't want to take 23 responsibility for their actions and that we're always looking 24 for someone to blame for our actions or circumstances; 25 correct? 43 1 JUROR NO. 216: Uh-huh. 2 MR. SMITH: Would that opinion affect your 3 judgment in this case in connection with the actions of Joseph 4 Wesbecker and the relation of Prozac to those actions, sir? 5 JUROR NO. 216: With the knowledge -- and I've 6 given this a lot of thought because, I'll be real honest, I 7 was hesitant to say that, but that's really the way I feel. 8 MR. SMITH: I appreciate your expressing your 9 opinion. 10 JUROR NO. 216: With what I know right now, I'd 11 have to say yes. I obviously don't know nearly as much as you 12 do, I mean, that goes without saying. But, I mean, just 13 from -- and I read the paper and just have probably the same 14 level of knowledge that anybody that's lived in Louisville 15 during this time has. I just have -- at the heart of it I 16 have a problem with the connection between his actions and 17 damages blaming the maker of a drug company. 18 MR. SMITH: All right. 19 JUROR NO. 216: The makers of the drug. 20 MR. SMITH: I guess the question I have is, 21 we're going to be presenting evidence that we think supports 22 our position that this drug caused him to do what he did, yet, 23 the defendant -- and we're not going to be able to dispute the 24 fact that Joseph Wesbecker actually walked in there and 25 actually pulled the trigger to this gun that he had. My 44 1 question to you is: Do you think that based on -- after 2 hearing everybody's evidence, that your judgment that you have 3 now that an individual is responsible for their own action, 4 would cause you to more likely render in your deliberations a 5 verdict in favor of Eli Lilly in this case? 6 JUROR NO. 216: That's hard to say. I don't 7 know. I know that you guys have got tons of evidence. I 8 heard on the news the other night, you know, and, I mean, I'm 9 an educated person and open-minded in a lot of ways. I guess 10 what I'm saying is you'd have maybe more convincing of me 11 because of my philosophy as it relates to that than maybe 12 someone else. 13 MR. SMITH: Do you think you would be more 14 inclined to require me as attorney for the plaintiffs to 15 produce more evidence to support that than the ordinary juror 16 would? 17 JUROR NO. 216: Maybe. Yeah. I think you start 18 out in the hole. 19 MR. FREEMAN: That's not a fair question. He's 20 the bearer of the burden of proof. 21 JUDGE POTTER: Go ahead, Mr. Smith. 22 JUROR NO. 216: Yeah. I think you start out at 23 a disadvantage. 24 MR. SMITH: And do you think that disadvantage 25 would continue through the trial? 45 1 JUROR NO. 216: Well, not if your argument is 2 convincing, I suppose. 3 MR. SMITH: Do you think my argument is going to 4 have to be more convincing than that of Mr. Freeman or Mr. 5 Stopher here? 6 JUROR NO. 216: From where I sit right now, yes. 7 MR. SMITH: We're not starting at the same place 8 is what you're telling us? 9 JUROR NO. 216: Yeah, I guess so. 10 MR. SMITH: You're going to listen to the 11 evidence, but the way you listen to the evidence is going to 12 be affected by your preconceived ideas? 13 JUROR NO. 216: Yeah. I think that's true of 14 everyone. 15 MR. SMITH: And may very well affect your 16 verdict in this case? 17 JUROR NO. 216: Yeah. Who we are certainly 18 affects the way we filter everything. 19 MR. SMITH: I understand that, but do you think 20 your opinion is so strong that you would be less likely to 21 listen to the evidence on an equal basis? 22 JUROR NO. 216: No. But I don't know that I 23 could say if someone doesn't feel the way I do in general that 24 we would be exactly the same. That's the only way I can say 25 what I feel. 46 1 MR. SMITH: All right. You also have the 2 opinion that the FDA is extremely cautious in their review of 3 drugs; is that right? 4 JUROR NO. 216: Uh-huh. 5 MR. SMITH: Where do you get that opinion? 6 JUROR NO. 216: Just -- that's not a question 7 that comes up every day to someone. My position just from my 8 life's experience. I have a friend that's a pharmaceutical 9 salesman. From my relationship with him at the times we talk 10 about work. I had a seminar several years ago with a 11 gentleman who worked for Lilly. I mean, we're not friends or 12 anything. It's just we were together for two days and just 13 his comments he made about, you know, how many drugs are 14 tested versus the ones that actually hit the market. Just 15 things that come up over the course of my lifetime. 16 MR. SMITH: So you've actually talked to Lilly 17 employees who have expressed to you how the FDA approves 18 products and what Lilly does to get that approval? 19 JUROR NO. 216: Not in any great detail. 20 MR. SMITH: I understand that. But that's also 21 information that you use in forming your opinion that the 22 FDA -- 23 JUROR NO. 216: Yes. I guess it is. 24 MR. SMITH: And is that also information that 25 you used in this preconceived idea you have that Mr. 47 1 Wesbecker's actions were not related at trial? 2 JUROR NO. 216: No. I don't think so. 3 MR. SMITH: What was that employee at Lilly's 4 name? 5 JUROR NO. 216: I don't know. You go to 6 seminars, meet somebody and you just talk. 7 MR. SMITH: Oh, this wasn't a friend of yours? 8 JUROR NO. 216: No. No. The friend of mine is 9 a pharmaceutical salesman, does not work for Lilly. 10 MR. SMITH: What type of reaction has your 11 mother had to prescription medications? 12 JUROR NO. 216: Just typically over the course 13 of her life I think my mother's body is sensitive to drugs. I 14 mean, she's one of these people that will go to the doctor and 15 the doctor will tell her to take -- prescribe a certain amount 16 of medication and she'll do that for a couple days, and she 17 will say I felt lightheaded or felt funny so I'm only taking 18 half of what he said to, which I'm usually critical of that 19 because he's the doctor and she's not. But because that's the 20 way my mom's always been, so that's why I mentioned that. 21 MR. SMITH: You say you have a friend currently 22 taking Prozac? 23 JUROR NO. 216: Yes, sir. 24 MR. SMITH: Has your friend discussed with you 25 the effects of Prozac and whether or not that friend has any 48 1 opinion on Prozac? 2 JUROR NO. 216: No. No, he has not. 3 MR. SMITH: Was that for depression your friend 4 is taking Prozac? 5 JUROR NO. 216: Yes. 6 MR. SMITH: That's all I have. 7 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher? 8 MR. STOPHER: Mr. Carrell, you've discussed some 9 ideas and some beliefs and so forth that you have. The real 10 issue in the case is: Can you sit as a juror in the case, 11 listen to the evidence and decide based on that evidence and 12 on the law that Judge Potter gives you at the end of the case? 13 Can you do that, sir? 14 JUROR NO. 216: I would like to say that I can. 15 I mean, I really think that I can, but I also felt that -- I 16 mean, that's the way I feel about our society in general, and 17 I owe that to you. 18 MR. STOPHER: We're not asking for people that 19 don't have any ideas about anything, but we are most 20 interested in whether or not you can sit in this case based on 21 the evidence and the law as given to you by the judge, whether 22 you like the law or not. Can you do that? 23 JUROR NO. 216: Yeah. I think I can do that. 24 MR. STOPHER: Thank you, sir. That's all I 25 have. Thank you, sir. 49 1 JUDGE POTTER: I'm going to excuse you till 9:00 2 tomorrow morning. You can go home and come back at 9:00 3 tomorrow morning. Don't talk to anybody, other jurors or read 4 about it in the newspaper or TV. Thank you, Mr. Carrell. 5 MR. SMITH: We'd move to strike Mr. Carrell. 6 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Is there anything you want 7 to say before I rule on it? 8 MR. STOPHER: Judge, I think Mr. Carrell is 9 exactly like Mr. Burks. He has some life experiences that he 10 carries into the case. 11 JUDGE POTTER: Yeah. I think it's the same 12 category, that he's -- I'm going to deny the motion to strike 13 him for cause. I'm not trading him off one way or the other; 14 we just had a good discussion very recently. 15 You're Ms. Druin? I remind you you're still 16 under oath. These attorneys might have some questions for 17 you. Mr. Smith -- Mr. Stopher. We're out of cycle. Mr. 18 Stopher? 19 MR. STOPHER: Ms. Druin, I'm Ed Stopher. I just 20 had a few questions for you. I don't know if it's my eyesight 21 or the bad photocopies. I couldn't read your occupation. 22 JUROR NO. 192: Wife and mother. 23 MR. STOPHER: Okay. I thought that's what it 24 was. 25 JUROR NO. 192: I'm not working right now. 50 1 MR. STOPHER: And your spouse, your husband 2 is -- it looks like an electric company? 3 JUROR NO. 192: Yeah. Arrow Electric Company. 4 He's a lineman there. 5 MR. STOPHER: Okay. Has he ever worked at any 6 time in the past for Marine Electric Company? 7 JUROR NO. 192: No. 8 MR. STOPHER: The reason I ask you is some of 9 their employees are electricians, Mr. Seidenfaden and Mr. 10 Hatfield, and they were wounded in this incident. Do you know 11 them or know anything about Marine Electric Company? 12 JUROR NO. 192: No. 13 MR. STOPHER: Has your husband ever done any 14 electrical work at Standard Gravure? 15 JUROR NO. 192: No. Hunh-uh. 16 MR. STOPHER: Okay. You answered that -- on 17 Question No. 9, that you believe that a prescription drug for 18 treating depression should be found 100-percent safe before 19 being sold to the public. Can you explain that answer a bit 20 to us? 21 JUROR NO. 192: Oh, gosh. Well, I just think 22 that it shouldn't be put out on the market unless it's 23 100-percent safe. I guess with anything. I don't know. I 24 mean, if they're like 80-percent sure that it's going to be a 25 good drug, then I don't feel that it should be out there. 51 1 MR. STOPHER: What about side effects? 2 JUROR NO. 192: What they should do about the 3 side effects or what do you mean? 4 MR. STOPHER: Yes, ma'am. 5 JUROR NO. 192: I think they should just make 6 the public aware of what can happen. 7 MR. STOPHER: Okay. In the answers, you 8 indicated that some of the members of your family have been 9 treated for depression? 10 JUROR NO. 192: Uh-huh. 11 MR. STOPHER: Would you -- I don't want to pry 12 into your family, but you can understand why it's important to 13 know this. 14 JUROR NO. 192: Right. 15 MR. STOPHER: Who in your family has been 16 treated? 17 JUROR NO. 192: Mainly my sister, my older 18 sister. 19 MR. STOPHER: All right. And has she been 20 treated for depression for a long time? 21 JUROR NO. 192: Yeah. Probably since she was a 22 teenager and she's 32 now, and I just found out the other day 23 that her doctor has her on Prozac but she's not taking it. 24 MR. STOPHER: Why is she not taking it? 25 JUROR NO. 192: She said it made her too hyper, 52 1 so she just has the bottle there. 2 MR. STOPHER: Did you believe her when she told 3 you that it made her too hyper? 4 JUROR NO. 192: I'd like to believe her, but 5 I've been on antidepressants and I know how they work. Her, 6 on the other hand, wants a nerve pill that's instant. So our 7 opinions on antidepressants are different. 8 MR. STOPHER: Let me stick with her for the 9 moment. And you understand that obviously none of us are 10 interested in this just to try to pry into your affairs? 11 JUROR NO. 192: I understand. 12 MR. STOPHER: But did she take Prozac and then 13 become hyper? 14 JUROR NO. 192: Uh-huh. That's what she says. 15 MR. STOPHER: And then she stopped it? 16 JUROR NO. 192: Uh-huh. 17 MR. STOPHER: And do you tend to believe that 18 that's an accurate account of her reaction to Prozac? 19 JUROR NO. 192: Do I feel that she's -- 20 MR. STOPHER: Reporting it accurately to you? 21 JUROR NO. 192: Oh, gosh. I don't -- I don't 22 know. I would think not, no. I wouldn't think that it would 23 make you hyper. That's just my opinion. 24 MR. STOPHER: Did she ever claim that it made 25 her suicidal or think about suicide? 53 1 JUROR NO. 192: No. But she has tried suicide 2 before. That wasn't even in the picture then, so... 3 MR. STOPHER: Did she claim that it made her 4 become violent or think about violence? 5 JUROR NO. 192: No. She's never said that. 6 MR. STOPHER: If there's a contention in this 7 case that Prozac made Mr. Wesbecker become hyper, would you 8 tend to believe that evidence more than if someone testified 9 that it did not make him hyper? 10 JUROR NO. 192: Repeat that. I lost you. I'm 11 sorry. 12 MR. STOPHER: I apologize. It's probably not 13 very well asked. There's going to be a dispute in this case 14 about whether or not Prozac made Mr. Wesbecker hyper, in some 15 senses of that word, I suppose. Do you have based on your 16 sister's experience some idea about that that you may carry 17 into the jury room? 18 JUROR NO. 192: Well, that -- I don't know. If 19 that was in the case, there's two people saying it made them 20 that way. I don't know if I can answer that. I just don't 21 know how I would feel about that. 22 MR. STOPHER: You think it may -- the fact that 23 your sister had such a reaction may tend to make you believe 24 that? 25 JUROR NO. 192: Well, like I said, I don't 54 1 believe that it made her hyper, but then if somebody else is 2 saying that it did them the same way, I really don't know how 3 I would feel. 4 MR. STOPHER: You yourself have had depression? 5 JUROR NO. 192: Uh-huh. Well, I didn't think I 6 was depressed. This was years and years ago, but it was 7 anxiety attacks and stuff, so they put me on antidepressants. 8 MR. STOPHER: Do you know what you were on? 9 JUROR NO. 192: Sinequan. 10 MR. STOPHER: Sinequan. Any others? 11 JUROR NO. 192: No. 12 MR. STOPHER: Ms. Druin, has that experience 13 made you more sensitive to the issues of depression and the 14 reactions to depression that antidepressants produce that you 15 might have an opinion about prescription medications for that 16 problem? 17 JUROR NO. 192: Well, are you asking me if I 18 feel that Prozac caused him to do that? 19 MR. STOPHER: Sure. 20 JUROR NO. 192: No, I don't. 21 MR. STOPHER: You don't think it caused him to 22 do it? 23 JUROR NO. 192: No. 24 MR. STOPHER: Are there other people in your 25 immediate family that have taken antidepressants other than 55 1 your sister and yourself? 2 JUROR NO. 192: Hunh-uh. Hunh-uh. 3 MR. STOPHER: Okay. You indicated that a friend 4 of yours is on medication? 5 JUROR NO. 192: I'm not sure what she's taking. 6 It's also an antidepressant, but I'm not sure what it is. 7 MR. STOPHER: And you made the statement that 8 she gets upset very easily. Does she sometimes become 9 suicidal or violent or aggressive? 10 JUROR NO. 192: Violent as far as threatening 11 her boyfriend and stuff like that, but since she's been on the 12 antidepressant maybe three or four months she is a different 13 person. You know, she's not like that, the way she was. 14 MR. STOPHER: Ms. Druin, this case really 15 involves depression, Prozac and violent homicidal activity. 16 You've had some experience with -- either through yourself or 17 members of your family or friends with all three of those 18 topics. 19 JUROR NO. 192: Uh-huh. 20 MR. STOPHER: Is that experience going to tend 21 to influence how you may vote as a juror in this case? 22 JUROR NO. 192: I wouldn't think so, but, I 23 mean, -- well, the girlfriend of mine, she -- I couldn't 24 imagine her going as far as he did, but then, you know, you 25 just never know when somebody just snaps, but I really don't 56 1 know. 2 MR. STOPHER: Let me ask the question this way: 3 Judge Potter mentioned the other day that everybody obviously 4 wants to be fair, but that because of situations and 5 information, some cases are just not for us. Is this a case 6 that's just not for you because of your experience? 7 JUROR NO. 192: No. I don't feel that. I mean, 8 I would listen to both cases, of course, but I already do have 9 my own opinion before hearing everybody else and all the other 10 information and everything. It's just my opinion that Eli 11 Lilly should not be responsible for this; I mean, that's just 12 my opinion so... 13 MR. STOPHER: But I take it that that's an 14 opinion that you have that you're going to put aside and 15 decide the case based on what the evidence is, is that where 16 we are? 17 MR. SMITH: Objection. Leading. 18 MR. POTTER: Overruled. 19 MR. STOPHER: Can you -- 20 JUROR NO. 192: Answer it? 21 MR. STOPHER: Yeah. I think I can put my 22 opinions to the side and just hear both sides of it. I don't 23 know a whole lot about it. I just know that he was on this 24 and he did that, and that's basically it. 25 MR. STOPHER: Okay. Thank you, Ms. Druin. 57 1 JUDGE POTTER: Ma'am, this gentleman, Mr. Smith, 2 may have some questions for you, maybe. 3 JUROR NO. 192: Okay. 4 MR. SMITH: Ms. Druin, on what do you base your 5 initial impression right now that Joseph Wesbecker's actions 6 were not influenced by Prozac? 7 JUROR NO. 192: Why do I feel that? 8 MR. SMITH: Yes, ma'am. 9 JUROR NO. 192: Well, there's too many people on 10 Prozac. I mean, I just feel like that it was not -- he was 11 obviously already this way. I don't know. Maybe the Prozac 12 hadn't even kicked in yet and was helping him. I'm not sure. 13 I don't know a whole lot about it, but I just don't feel like 14 he -- that Prozac caused this. 15 MR. SMITH: How strong are those feelings? 16 JUROR NO. 192: It's pretty strong, but then I 17 have mixed motions about that. If a doctor wanted to put me 18 on Prozac today I would say no, if that makes sense to 19 anybody. I think I would just be a little leery, but then on 20 the other hand, I still feel like that it didn't cause it. I 21 don't know if I'm making sense. 22 MR. SMITH: I guess our concern is whether 23 you're -- how much your feelings are going to spill over into 24 your deliberations in this case, you know. And that's a hard 25 issue for us to try to get some insight into and for you to 58 1 express. The Judge is going to instruct you to base your 2 verdict on the evidence that you hear in this case. My 3 question is: Can you put your experience beside you based on 4 what you say is a pretty strong opinion and render your 5 verdict on the evidence you hear out there in the courtroom? 6 JUROR NO. 192: I feel that I can. You know, 7 just hearing two different stories, you know, because I've 8 never heard -- you know -- 9 MR. SMITH: The real story? 10 JUROR NO. 192: Right. I guess you could say 11 that, yeah. So I'm sure I can. I'm a fair person, and 12 hearing one side and another side, I think... 13 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Ms. Druin. 14 JUDGE POTTER: Ms. Druin, I'm going to excuse 15 you till 9:00 tomorrow morning. You're free to go home and if 16 you'll be over to the jury pool at 9:00. Again I emphasize my 17 admonition. Do not permit anybody to talk to you about this 18 case or you talk to anybody else including your other jurors. 19 JUROR NO. 192: Okay. 20 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much. 21 JUROR NO. 192: Thank you. 22 JUDGE POTTER: Let's see if we have a motion on 23 this and we'll take a five-minute recess. Does anybody have 24 any motions on Ms. Druin? 25 MR. SMITH: No. 59 1 59 2 JUDGE POTTER: Let's really cut it to five 3 minutes and just run out and run back. 4 (RECESS) 5 JUDGE POTTER: You're Ms. Duncan? 6 JUROR NO. 213: Yes, sir. 7 JUDGE POTTER: I'll remind you you're still 8 under oath. Ms. Duncan, just more my own curiosity, did I see 9 you working in the courthouse last night? 10 JUROR NO. 213: Hunh-uh. 11 JUDGE POTTER: There was someone that looked 12 very much like you that I thought I saw working the cleaning 13 crew when I went home, and that wasn't you? 14 JUROR NO. 213: No, sir. 15 JUDGE POTTER: I apologize. I remind you you're 16 still under oath. These gentlemen may have some questions for 17 you. 18 Go ahead. 19 MR. SMITH: Ms. Duncan, I see that -- I'm Paul 20 Smith, and I represent the plaintiffs in this case. I see in 21 your questionnaire that you had a friend who was depressed and 22 took Prozac while she was in the hospital? 23 JUROR NO. 213: Uh-huh . 24 MR. SMITH: Did she report to you what her 25 experience was in connection with the Prozac? 60 1 JUROR NO. 213: No, sir. 2 MR. SMITH: She didn't tell you whether it 3 worked or didn't work? 4 JUROR NO. 213: No, sir. 5 MR. SMITH: Since she returned to the hospital, 6 has she indicated to you whether or not she's continuing to 7 take Prozac? 8 JUROR NO. 213: No, sir; she didn't. 9 MR. SMITH: She did not finish? 10 JUROR NO. 213: She didn't tell me whether or 11 not she did or didn't. 12 MR. SMITH: You don't know whether she is 13 continuing to? 14 JUROR NO. 213: I don't think she has because 15 she's pregnant. I don't know anything about the drug so I 16 don't know if it would affect her pregnancy or not. 17 MR. SMITH: Anything about your friend's 18 experience with Prozac that would affect your judgment as a 19 juror in this case? 20 JUROR NO. 213: No, sir. 21 MR. SMITH: That's all I have. 22 MR. STOPHER: We're looking for people who 23 obviously don't have any preconceived ideas about this case. 24 I assume from what you've written in the answers to the 25 questions that you have heard some things about this incident; 61 1 am I right? 2 JUROR NO. 213: I heard a little about it on the 3 news when it happened but, of course, I was only 15 at the 4 time, so I really didn't listen to the news a lot. 5 MR. STOPHER: Okay. Based on that or anything 6 else, do you have any ideas as to what caused Mr. Wesbecker to 7 do what he did? 8 JUROR NO. 213: No. I didn't really know hardly 9 anything that happened there. I just heard that someone went 10 into the plant and shot people. That's all I really remember. 11 MR. STOPHER: Okay. Do you have any idea that 12 Prozac made him do that? 13 JUROR NO. 213: No. I have no idea. 14 MR. STOPHER: Or that it could make him do that? 15 JUROR NO. 213: I really don't know anything 16 about the drug, so I don't know whether it would or wouldn't. 17 MR. STOPHER: Okay. Thank you, Ms. Duncan. 18 JUDGE POTTER: Ms. Duncan, I'm going to excuse 19 you till 9:00 tomorrow morning, and you're free to leave and 20 just abe in the jury pool area where you start out each 21 morning at 9:00. I emphasize again do not permit anybody to 22 talk to you about the case or don't you talk to anybody else 23 about the case, and that includes the jurors, and don't watch 24 the TV if it comes on or the newspaper. Okay? 25 JUROR NO. 213: Okay. 62 1 JUDGE POTTER: See you at 9:00. 2 You're Mr. Dwyer? 3 JUROR NO. 94: Yes, sir. 4 JUDGE POTTER: Sir, I'll remind you you're still 5 under oath. These gentlemen may have some questions for you. 6 Mr. Stopher? 7 MR. STOPHER: Mr. Dwyer? 8 JUROR NO. 94: Dwyer, yes. 9 MR. STOPHER: My name is Ed Stopher. I wanted 10 to ask you about the answer that you gave that the FDA in your 11 opinion tends to not run enough tests on specific drugs that 12 have certain controversy surrounding them, if I read your 13 handwriting correctly. Can you explain to me what you meant, 14 sir? 15 JUROR NO. 94: Not in particularly. I mean, 16 it's just things I've picked up in the news, you know, things 17 that have made headlines and such about certain drugs for 18 certain types of problems. 19 MR. STOPHER: Which drugs, do you know, sir? 20 JUROR NO. 94: Like a couple years ago about the 21 AIDS-related drugs that they were trying to put on the market 22 that they found out was not helping out, that wasn't doing 23 anything, and I've seen some in the news about the Prozac drug 24 and just different -- I mean, I guess for a long time, you 25 know, there was a lot earlier on in the earlier part of the 63 1 century that they didn't think hurt anybody, and even now they 2 use morphine for pain, which is not, you know, a good drug to 3 have. 4 MR. STOPHER: Do you have an opinion that the 5 FDA did not do enough tests on Prozac? 6 JUROR NO. 94: I haven't been able to see any 7 kind of results as far as -- you know, I have never heard the 8 FDA connected right with Prozac. 9 MR. STOPHER: You wrote that in connection with 10 drugs for the treatment of depression that you thought that 11 they should be 100-percent safe before being sold to the 12 public? 13 JUROR NO. 94: Yes. 14 MR. STOPHER: Can you tell me what you meant by 15 that? 16 JUROR NO. 94: Just that it should be beyond a 17 reasonable doubt that there should be no side effects. And I 18 understand that there's no drug like that but, you know, they 19 should be able to test it on a certain amount of controlled 20 group of people and continue to test it as long as it's in 21 use, just to -- more or less maybe updates. And the drugs, 22 see if there's any connection with any other kind of 23 illnesses. 24 MR. STOPHER: Do you think that a drug before 25 it's marketed should be free of all side effects? 64 1 JUROR NO. 94: All harmful side effects unless 2 they can be treated with another drug. 3 MR. STOPHER: What if that cannot be done, does 4 that mean that the drug is unsafe? 5 JUROR NO. 94: I would consider it unsafe. 6 MR. STOPHER: In this case Prozac has side 7 effects. Does that mean that you believe that Prozac is 8 unsafe going into this trial? 9 JUROR NO. 94: I don't know what the side 10 effects are. If I know what the side effects are and I 11 considered them unsafe, I would not take it or recommend 12 anybody I knew to take it. 13 MR. STOPHER: What if it can cause a lot of 14 different conditions and reactions, as many as 20 different 15 conditions or reactions? 16 JUROR NO. 94: Then I would consider it unsafe. 17 MR. STOPHER: If that was the situation with 18 regard to Prozac, your opinion is that it is an unsafe drug? 19 JUROR NO. 94: Yes. 20 MR. STOPHER: In connection with the answer to 21 No. 25, sir, you said, "I find that I do hold a preconceived 22 idea and bias against Eli Lilly and Company from research for 23 a school paper done on the incident at Standard Gravure. This 24 paper did deal with the FDA and research on Prozac." Did I 25 understand this -- 65 1 JUROR NO. 94: I did it right when it happened 2 and we -- I was with a group of people and we more or less 3 just pulled facts as we found them. You know, like I said, I 4 don't remember where the facts came from. I couldn't give the 5 scientific journals or anything else that they came from. 6 MR. STOPHER: And did you reach a conclusion in 7 that paper, sir? 8 JUROR NO. 94: At the time we -- you know, it 9 wasn't asking for a conclusion; it was just asking to state 10 facts and, you know, more or less tell what happened and what 11 you think may have caused it. 12 MR. STOPHER: And what did you think caused it? 13 JUROR NO. 94: I considered that the depression 14 couldn't have just made the man snap; it had to be some 15 outside influence. 16 MR. STOPHER: And what outside influence did you 17 determine that it was? 18 JUROR NO. 94: We determined that it could have 19 been Prozac -- we didn't say that it was -- or something else 20 he may have been taking at the time. There wasn't anything 21 stated that he took other than Prozac. 22 MR. STOPHER: Uh-huh. Based on that, you do 23 have a preconceived idea and bias against Eli Lilly and 24 Company, as you wrote? 25 JUROR NO. 94: Yes, sir. As far as that paper 66 1 shows that I did. 2 MR. STOPHER: All right. You stated in answer 3 to No. 26 that you already have an opinion that Prozac was a 4 contributing cause to Joseph Wesbecker's actions. 5 JUROR NO. 94: As far as what I've seen recently 6 before I was called to jury duty, yes. 7 MR. STOPHER: And is that based on the work that 8 you did on this paper? 9 JUROR NO. 94: No. This is just more or less 10 recently from just seeing newsclips and reels. 11 MR. STOPHER: What is the basis for that 12 opinion, sir? 13 JUROR NO. 94: That he wasn't -- he was under 14 depression and he didn't really snap, I guess, till after he 15 started taking the drug, or that's what I've gotten from the 16 news, you know, that's the way it was stated by some of the 17 stuff I've read and seen on TV. 18 MR. STOPHER: So your conclusion is that he had 19 depression, he took Prozac and he snapped, therefore he 20 snapped because he was on Prozac? 21 JUROR NO. 94: Yes. That's... 22 MR. STOPHER: Mr. Dwyer, I take it that these 23 are opinions that you've held since the time you wrote your 24 paper; am I right? 25 JUROR NO. 94: Well, the paper confirmed 67 1 opinions that I had had. 2 MR. STOPHER: And I take it that you wrote that 3 paper back in 1989 or 1990? 4 JUROR NO. 94: '89, just right after the 5 incident. 6 MR. STOPHER: And that you updated that opinion 7 recently by looking at news reports? 8 JUROR NO. 94: Yes. 9 MR. STOPHER: And you still hold the same 10 opinion? 11 JUROR NO. 94: Yes. 12 MR. STOPHER: And this is the opinion that you 13 would carry into the jury box if you were selected to serve in 14 this case? 15 JUROR NO. 94: I'm afraid so. 16 MR. STOPHER: Yes, sir. Would that opinion that 17 you've held for now five years or almost five years tend to 18 influence your verdict in this case? 19 JUROR NO. 94: I would say I could not be 20 impartial. 21 MR. STOPHER: Right. Thank you, sir. 22 JUDGE POTTER: Any questions, Mr. Smith? 23 MR. SMITH: Just a couple. Mr. Dwyer, we will 24 present evidence in connection with this matter. Eli Lilly 25 and Company will present evidence in connection with this 68 1 matter, evidence from both sides that is much more extensive 2 and much more detailed than that evidence that you've been 3 seeing so far. And at the conclusion of that, the Judge will 4 instruct you to base your verdict based on the evidence that's 5 presented to you in the courtroom and to disregard anything 6 else you might have learned or known about the drug or the 7 activity of Mr. Wesbecker before that. Do you think you'd be 8 able to do that in this case? 9 JUROR NO. 94: I don't think I could, sir. I 10 mean, I would try but I would be afraid that I would be 11 influenced by the things I've seen and working on that paper. 12 MR. SMITH: All right. 13 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Mr. Dwyer, I'm going to 14 excuse you -- well, and what you need to do is to call the -- 15 I tell you what, you just wait outside the door for a split 16 second, will you, sir? 17 MR. FREEMAN: We move to excuse. 18 MR. SMITH: (Shakes head negatively). 19 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Dwyer, I just needed to talk 20 with the lawyers for just a split second and I think you can 21 understand what happened. I'm going to excuse you from this 22 case. If you call that telephone number on your jury badge, 23 they'll tell you whether to come in tomorrow for another 24 trial. Okay. Appreciate your honesty. Thank you very much, 25 sir. 69 1 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Are you Ms. Felker? 2 JUROR NO. 136: Yes, sir. 3 JUDGE POTTER: Have a seat, ma'am. I remind you 4 you're still under oath. These gentlemen may have some 5 questions for you. 6 Mr. Smith? 7 MR. SMITH: Ms. Felker, I notice that you work 8 for Philip Morris and Company; is that right? 9 JUROR NO. 136: Yes, sir. 10 MR. SMITH: And what do you do for them? 11 JUROR NO. 136: I'm an inspector. 12 MR. SMITH: What does that mean? 13 JUROR NO. 136: I check the different aspects of 14 cigarettes and filters, the target weights, you know. Philip 15 Morris has certain specifications and I make adjustments on 16 machines to meet those specifications. 17 MR. SMITH: This is a lawsuit, Ms. Felker, 18 involving claims against Prozac and claims against the 19 manufacturer of a drug Prozac, that's used by a lot of 20 individuals. You happen to be working for a company -- I'm a 21 smoker -- that is the subject of much lawsuits and litigation 22 in connection with tobacco smokers getting sick as a result of 23 smoking cigarettes. My question to you is: Because you are 24 an employee of Philip Morris who's a defendant in many 25 lawsuits in a controversial matter, a matter involving health 70 1 issues, as this case is, do you think that would have an 2 influence in your verdict in this case? 3 JUROR NO. 136: No. I never made the connection 4 like you just did. 5 MR. SMITH: Maybe I shouldn't have. But you 6 don't see any connection there and you don't think that would 7 affect your verdict? 8 JUROR NO. 136: No. No. 9 MR. SMITH: Thank you, ma'am. 10 MR. STOPHER: No questions, Your Honor. 11 JUDGE POTTER: Ms. Felker, I'm going to excuse 12 you till 9:00 tomorrow morning. You may go home now but would 13 you be back in the jury room over there at 9:00 tomorrow 14 morning, the assembly area, where you just started out? 15 JUROR NO. 136: Yes. Over there? 16 JUDGE POTTER: In the other building. And I'm 17 going to remind you of my admonition, which is don't permit 18 anybody to talk to you on this case and don't you communicate 19 with anybody else, including the other jurors about this case, 20 and don't let the newspaper or TV communicate with you about 21 it. 22 JUROR NO. 136: No problem there. 23 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much. 24 You're Ms. Franklin; is that right? 25 JUROR NO. 13: Flanery. 71 1 JUDGE POTTER: Flanery. Angela Flanery. I'll 2 remind you you're still under oath. These attorneys may have 3 questions for you. 4 MR. STOPHER: Ms. Flanery, my name is Ed 5 Stopher. I just wanted to ask you a couple questions about -- 6 and I don't want to pry into your affairs or your family's 7 affairs, but it's not because of some personal interest that 8 I'm doing this, so I hope you will understand the nature of 9 the questions. 10 JUROR NO. 13: Sure. 11 MR. STOPHER: You indicated that someone, either 12 yourself or someone that you're close to, has had a problem 13 with an obsessive compulsive disorder or OCD. Is that you or 14 someone else? 15 JUROR NO. 13: Yes. It's me. 16 MR. STOPHER: And is this a disorder that you 17 wrote here, I think, has been there since the early 1980s? 18 JUROR NO. 13: Yeah. That's when it first 19 became -- I think at times even in the past before that I had 20 saw it, but it was in the early -- early to mid '80s that it 21 was actually diagnosed as an obsessive compulsive disorder. 22 MR. STOPHER: And you indicated that you have 23 taken some medications for that, but you don't know what they 24 are? 25 JUROR NO. 13: I'm thinking the name of it was 72 1 Imipramine. Maybe. I'm not positive about that. 2 MR. STOPHER: Imipramine. And why did you stop 3 taking it? 4 JUROR NO. 13: I couldn't really tell any 5 difference, and I just stopped. 6 MR. STOPHER: Has anyone suggested that you take 7 Prozac for OCD? 8 JUROR NO. 13: Not that I recall. I mean, that 9 was a long time ago, but I have no memory of anyone doing 10 that. 11 MR. STOPHER: If a doctor prescribed it to you 12 for OCD or obsessive compulsive disorder, would you take it? 13 JUROR NO. 13: I don't know. I haven't thought 14 about it. I mean, I really don't know. I don't know anything 15 about it. 16 MR. STOPHER: Ms. Flanery, in connection with 17 this case, you have had some schooling with regard to 18 psychology; am I right? 19 JUROR NO. 13: One class. 20 MR. STOPHER: One class. All right. 21 JUROR NO. 13: I was a work studies student in 22 the department of psychology. That was my original major, but 23 I switched majors. I don't think I've had any other classes 24 that would have fallen under psychology. I've had some 25 sociology classes, just liberal arts requirements. 73 1 MR. STOPHER: And I gather that you've also had 2 counseling where you've been the person being counseled in 3 connection with your obsessive compulsive disorder? 4 JUROR NO. 13: For a short time, yes. 5 MR. STOPHER: Okay. Do you have any opinions 6 about counseling and psychotherapy and that sort of thing that 7 grow out of that experience? 8 JUROR NO. 13: I mean, it wasn't a negative 9 experience or anything like that. I mean, not really. 10 MR. STOPHER: Okay. Lastly, you indicated that 11 you have read some things about this case, or about this 12 incident; maybe I should put it that way. 13 JUROR NO. 13: I've heard things on TV. I've 14 seen newspaper articles, articles in magazines. If you ask me 15 to name one of them, no. 16 MR. STOPHER: I notice that you say you can't 17 name them or cite them. 18 JUROR NO. 13: I could say maybe I read one in 19 Cosmopolitan, only because I have a subscription to that 20 magazine and that magazine only. 21 MR. STOPHER: All right. Based on what you've 22 read, have you formed any opinions about what caused Joseph 23 Wesbecker to do what he did? 24 JUROR NO. 13: I really don't know anything 25 about Mr. Wesbecker. I mean, it's been so long ago, I don't 74 1 know. I really didn't hear much about it. I think that maybe 2 one of my professors at the time knew somebody because I 3 remember them talking about it, but I didn't -- I don't 4 remember him saying anything. I don't know. 5 MR. STOPHER: In other words, the bottom line 6 conclusion is, given your personal experience with OCD, 7 medications that you've taken, counseling that you've had, is 8 any of that going to influence your attitudes toward someone 9 who suffers from depression who didn't commit violent acts, 10 took Prozac and then did commit violent acts? Are you going 11 to have some preconceived ideas about the outcome? 12 JUROR NO. 13: I can't think of anything right 13 now. I mean, I think everything that you experience affects 14 you. 15 MR. STOPHER: Of course. 16 JUROR NO. 13: So when given a situation, it 17 would have to be on a particular situation. I'm just not 18 sure. 19 MR. STOPHER: Then in the interest of fairness, 20 if I understand what you're saying, you will commit and will 21 agree to decide the case based only on the evidence and the 22 instructions given to you by the Court? 23 JUROR NO. 13: Well, I mean, yeah. Of course, I 24 would try not to be influenced by anything else because -- 25 MR. STOPHER: That's not right. 75 1 JUROR NO. 13: -- that's the way it should be. 2 You know what I'm saying. There's always possibilities. But 3 I would try to avoid those possibilities. 4 MR. STOPHER: Are the possibilities, the 5 possibilities that you and I have just discussed, or is there 6 something else out there that might influence your final 7 verdict in this case? 8 JUROR NO. 13: I would make every effort to 9 disregard the possibilities that we've discussed and, as far 10 as something else, it would depend upon the time and the 11 situation. 12 MR. STOPHER: Is there something else that 13 you're concerned about that you didn't indicate on the form 14 here and that we haven't discussed? 15 JUROR NO. 13: I'm just -- it's just difficult 16 to come up with these answers. I'm not sure what -- I mean, I 17 would try my best not to be influenced by anything. 18 MR. STOPHER: Can you think of anything that 19 might influence you other than what you wrote down and what 20 you and I have discussed? 21 JUROR NO. 13: The only thing -- and I don't 22 think this would influence me, at least again I would try, but 23 I want to make sure that this is known. I have a 24 brother-in-law that has some psychological problems and I 25 don't know that much about them to discuss them, but I 76 1 personally would try not to let anything like that affect the 2 way I made a decision. 3 MR. STOPHER: Has your brother-in-law had a 4 problem with depression or anxiety or is he -- 5 JUROR NO. 13: He received treatment in 6 Lexington at -- I don't remember the name. He's had several 7 problems. 8 MR. STOPHER: Has he talked about suicide or 9 attempted suicide? 10 JUROR NO. 13: I don't know. 11 MR. STOPHER: Has he been violent at times? 12 JUROR NO. 13: Yes, he has. I was not there, 13 though, so I can't -- at the time. These are just things that 14 I've heard about. 15 MR. STOPHER: I understand. And, again, I hope 16 that you understand I'm not interested in upsetting you or 17 prying into your life, but I think you see the connection to 18 this case. 19 JUROR NO. 13: Yeah. 20 MR. STOPHER: Did he become violent to a member 21 of his family? 22 JUROR NO. 13: There were several different 23 people, some members of his family, yes. 24 MR. STOPHER: And some individuals that were not 25 members of his family he became violent toward? 77 1 JUROR NO. 13: Yes. 2 MR. STOPHER: Did this involve threats to commit 3 violence? 4 JUROR NO. 13: Gosh. It involved violent acts. 5 MR. STOPHER: Did it involve weapons and 6 firearms? 7 JUROR NO. 13: Yeah. Weapons. 8 MR. STOPHER: Ms. Flanery, do you have an 9 opinion in your brother-in-law's case what caused him to 10 become violent? 11 JUROR NO. 13: No, I don't. I wish I did. 12 MR. STOPHER: It was an unanswered question? 13 JUROR NO. 13: Yeah. 14 MR. STOPHER: Still unanswered? 15 JUROR NO. 13: (Nods head affirmatively). 16 MR. STOPHER: Okay. 17 JUROR NO. 13: As far as I'm concerned. I don't 18 know. 19 MR. STOPHER: Do you think that information and 20 that life experience, as unpleasant as I'm sure that it is, is 21 something that may make you want to give some insight as to 22 why Joseph Wesbecker became violent on September 14, 1989? 23 JUROR NO. 13: No. I don't think this would 24 give me any insight because I really don't understand this 25 situation myself, so the two things aren't related. 78 1 MR. STOPHER: Do you think it may influence your 2 attitude toward the people that were the victims of the 3 violence? 4 JUROR NO. 13: I can't sit here and tell you 5 that I don't feel sorry for them for being put in a situation 6 like that. I mean... 7 MR. STOPHER: Do you think that sorrow for them 8 which is, I suppose, partially generated out of the experience 9 with your brother-in-law, is that so strong that it may 10 overcome the facts and the evidence in this case? 11 JUROR NO. 13: I think I would try very hard to 12 look at the evidence and make a good decision. I can be an 13 emotional person sometimes. I try to act rationally, but... 14 MR. STOPHER: I understand. Given all of this, 15 do you really think you can sit and decide this case fairly 16 without letting these things come into your verdict? 17 JUROR NO. 13: I don't know for sure. All I can 18 tell you is I can sit here right now and say I would try to 19 make a rational, calm decision, but... 20 MR. STOPHER: These things may enter into the 21 verdict? 22 JUROR NO. 13: I would try to keep them from it. 23 See, those are my experiences, and I can't make a decision. I 24 mean, I try to be a rational human being and weigh decisions. 25 MR. STOPHER: Of course. And I don't mean to 79 1 suggest anything to the contrary. 2 JUROR NO. 13: I understand that. I know that. 3 It's really hard for me to answer this because everything I've 4 done and experienced comes into how you would ration something 5 out what you believe to be. I would try to do everything 6 right. 7 MR. STOPHER: All right. But you -- as hard as 8 you try, they may come in. 9 MR. SMITH: Your Honor, we object to the 10 badgering now. 11 JUDGE POTTER: It's been asked and answered. 12 MS. ZETTLER: We're making an objection to what 13 he's asked you. 14 JUDGE POTTER: Any other questions of this 15 Witness? 16 MR. STOPHER: No, there's not. Thank you, Ms. 17 Flanery. I appreciate your answers. Thank you. 18 MR. SMITH: We don't have any questions of you, 19 Ms. Flanery. 20 JUDGE POTTER: I'm going to excuse you till 9:00 21 tomorrow morning. You're free to leave, but be in the other 22 assembly room at 9:00 tomorrow. Don't talk to anybody about 23 the case, don't let anybody talk to you, don't pick up any 24 information from the TV or newspaper or the radio. Thank you 25 very much, ma'am. 80 1 MR. STOPHER: Thank you, Ms. Flanery. 2 JUROR NO. 13: Oh, you're welcome. 3 JUDGE POTTER: Does anybody have any motions 4 they want to make? Mr. Stopher? 5 MR. STOPHER: Judge, we would move to strike 6 Ms. Flanery. 7 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith, what do you want to 8 say, sir? 9 MR. SMITH: We think Ms. Flanery would be an 10 adequate juror. She said that she would be able to put her 11 personal experiences aside and follow the instructions of the 12 Court. The mere fact that she is sympathetic to a victim of a 13 violent crime is no different than 99.9 percent of the general 14 public. 15 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. You know, in a way this is 16 too bad we don't have television because I don't know how her 17 answers are going to read in the transcript. But when she was 18 saying "I would try" I think she was saying, "I will," but 19 nobody knows what's going to happen." She was a very 20 sensitive person. None of the things that she was worried 21 about influencing her were really very close kind of things, 22 so I'm going to deny the motion to strike her for cause. 23 You're Ms. Franklin. You want to have a seat, 24 please, ma'am. I want to remind you you're still under oath. 25 These gentlemen may ask you a few questions. Mr. Smith? 81 1 MR. SMITH: Hi, Ms. Franklin. 2 JUROR NO. 114: Hi. 3 MR. SMITH: Let me get my bearings here. We're 4 trying to go through as quickly as possible. As I understand 5 it, you have a daughter who's been treated for depression? 6 JUROR NO. 114: Yes. 7 MR. SMITH: And you say you don't know what 8 medication she was treated with? 9 JUROR NO. 114: No, I don't. 10 MR. SMITH: Do you know that she was in fact 11 treated with medication? 12 JUROR NO. 114: Yes. 13 MR. SMITH: Did she receive psychotherapy, that 14 is, sessions with a psychologist or psychiatrist where she 15 also talked about her depression, or was she just given 16 medication? 17 JUROR NO. 114: She was just given medication. 18 MR. SMITH: How long was she treated for 19 depression? 20 JUROR NO. 114: Well, she was -- she stopped 21 smoking cold turkey so she kind of... So it was, I guess, 22 maybe about a month or so. 23 MR. SMITH: And after that did she get better? 24 JUROR NO. 114: Yeah. She -- well, she stopped 25 taking the medicine and she kind of went -- she kind of got 82 1 a -- she has a strong determination. She fought it on her 2 own. 3 MR. SMITH: So she took the medication and then 4 stopped because she was no longer needing the medication; is 5 that right? 6 JUROR NO. 114: No. She said that it affected 7 her in some way. 8 MR. SMITH: The medicine affected her somehow? 9 JUROR NO. 114: Yeah. 10 MR. SMITH: And so she stopped taking the 11 medicine? 12 JUROR NO. 114: Yes, she did. 13 MR. SMITH: But you don't know what medicine 14 that was? 15 JUROR NO. 114: No, I don't. 16 MR. SMITH: Where did you last work, Ms. 17 Franklin? 18 JUROR NO. 114: At the Frazier Rehab Center. 19 MR. SMITH: What do they do? 20 JUROR NO. 114: They rehab strokes, amputees, 21 paraplegics and brain injury people. 22 MR. SMITH: What did you do for them when you 23 were employed by them? 24 JUROR NO. 114: Nursing assistant. 25 MR. SMITH: Did you ever hear any medical 83 1 personnel, the doctors or nurses, express any opinion 2 concerning the medication Prozac, Ms. Franklin? 3 JUROR NO. 114: Yes. 4 MR. SMITH: What opinions did you hear? 5 JUROR NO. 114: Really, they just looked in a 6 medical book and they saw what the side effects was. 7 MR. SMITH: And had you asked them to do that or 8 were they doing that in connection with a patient? 9 JUROR NO. 114: No. Since, you know, they had 10 the shooting down there, was looking it up. 11 MR. SMITH: Oh, the doctors there were 12 investigating? 13 JUROR NO. 114: No. Not the doctors. It was 14 just a bunch of us at night. I worked at night, the nurses. 15 MR. SMITH: Okay. So you-all started talking 16 about the relationship of Prozac to this incident and you 17 looked up the PDR, that big, thick book? 18 JUROR NO. 114: Yeah. 19 MR. SMITH: And what did you learn by looking at 20 that? 21 JUROR NO. 114: Frankly speaking, I have 22 forgotten. 23 MR. SMITH: Do you remember whether you-all came 24 to any solution by looking at that book as to this issue of 25 whether or not Prozac had anything to do with Mr. Wesbecker's 84 1 actions on September 14th, 1989, Ms. Franklin? 2 JUROR NO. 114: No, we didn't. 3 MR. SMITH: Anything about that experience that 4 would affect your judgment? 5 JUROR NO. 114: Oh, no. 6 MR. SMITH: And as I understand it, you don't 7 have any opinion as we sit here on whether or not Prozac had 8 any effect on Mr. Wesbecker's actions in shooting these 9 people? 10 JUROR NO. 114: No. Hunh-uh. 11 MR. SMITH: That's all I have, Your Honor. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher? 13 MR. STOPHER: Ms. Franklin, were any of the 14 people who were involved in the Standard Gravure shootings as 15 victims, patients at the Frazier Rehab Center? 16 JUROR NO. 114: No. I don't think so. 17 MR. STOPHER: You didn't recognize any of them 18 when they were introduced as having been patients or heard 19 their names as having been patients? 20 JUROR NO. 114: No. 21 MR. STOPHER: I believe that's all I want to 22 ask, Ms. Franklin. Thank you. 23 JUDGE POTTER: Ms. Franklin, I'm going to excuse 24 you till 9:00 tomorrow morning. If you will be in the jury 25 assembly area where you first went at 9:00 tomorrow morning. 85 1 I remind you, ma'am, of my admonition. Do not let anybody 2 talk to you or communicate with you about this case. Do not 3 discuss it with your friends or family or look at it on the 4 television or anything. 5 JUROR NO. 114: Okay. 6 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you, ma'am. 7 JUROR NO. 114: You're welcome. 8 JUDGE POTTER: You're Mr. Gunnels; is that 9 right? 10 JUROR NO. 27: Yes, sir. 11 JUDGE POTTER: I remind you you're still under 12 oath, Mr. Gunnels. I think we're down to Mr. Stopher. 13 MR. STOPHER: Mr. Gunnels, I just had a couple 14 of questions here, sir. And, again, sir, I wanted to express 15 to you I'm not interested in prying into your personal life 16 for any reason other than trying to determine whether or not 17 things have occurred in your life that would affect your 18 verdict in this case. I hope you understand that, sir. 19 JUROR NO. 27: Uh-huh. 20 MR. STOPHER: You indicated in the questionnaire 21 that your wife has been treated for depression for 22 approximately 14 years? 23 JUROR NO. 27: Uh-huh. 24 MR. STOPHER: I believe that you indicated that 25 she has taken and is currently taking Prozac? 86 1 JUROR NO. 27: That's correct. 2 MR. STOPHER: And if I understand correctly, 3 that was prescribed by a psychiatrist? 4 JUROR NO. 27: Yes, sir. 5 MR. STOPHER: Am I correct about that? 6 JUROR NO. 27: I'll have to be honest, I'm not 7 sure if -- it's her doctor, but I'm not sure if he's a 8 psychiatrist or not. 9 MR. STOPHER: All right, sir. Obviously at 10 issue in this case, sir, is Prozac and whether or not it made 11 Mr. Wesbecker become violent or to act out violently on 12 September 14, 1989. Has your wife's experience with Prozac 13 made you render a decision already on that issue? 14 JUROR NO. 27: No, sir. I can't tell a drastic 15 change in her behavior other than any of the other medications 16 that she's taking. 17 MR. STOPHER: In other words, if I understand 18 correctly, the fact that she's had an experience that's 19 neither a plus nor a minus is not going to affect your 20 decision in this case as to whether or not Prozac either 21 caused or contributed to cause Mr. Wesbecker to become 22 violent? 23 JUROR NO. 27: I don't think so. She has 24 expressed here in the last week or so that possibility of 25 changing medications, and I don't know whether she's having 87 1 some problems with it or I really don't know why, but she did 2 express that. 3 MR. STOPHER: All right. Those are all the 4 questions I have, sir. 5 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith? 6 MR. SMITH: We don't have any questions of you, 7 Mr. Gunnels. Thank you for coming. 8 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Gunnels, I'm going to excuse 9 you till 9:00 tomorrow morning. Would you please be in the 10 jury assembly area then? I remind you not to talk to anybody 11 about the case. And that includes your wife, family or 12 friends. Don't read anything about it in the newspaper, see 13 anything on TV or talk to any other jurors. Thank you very 14 much, sir. 15 JUDGE POTTER: You're Ms. Hamilton; is that 16 right? 17 JUROR NO. 184: Yes. 18 JUDGE POTTER: How are you, Ms. Hamilton? 19 JUROR NO. 184: Fine, thank you. 20 JUDGE POTTER: I'll remind you you're still 21 under oath. These gentlemen may want to ask you some 22 questions. And I think it is yours, Mr. Smith. 23 MR. SMITH: Hi, Ms. Hamilton. 24 JUROR NO. 184: Hello. 25 MR. SMITH: I'm Paul Smith. I represent the 88 1 plaintiffs. We have reviewed your questionnaire, Ms. 2 Hamilton, and it appears that you're currently taking Prozac? 3 JUROR NO. 184: No. 4 MR. SMITH: You did take Prozac? 5 JUROR NO. 184: Right. 6 MR. SMITH: And for how long? 7 JUROR NO. 184: It was approximately six months. 8 MR. SMITH: And did you find Prozac to be 9 effective in treating your depression? 10 JUROR NO. 184: I guess it was. I didn't really 11 notice much change except I wasn't as easy to cry. So, yes, I 12 guess it was effective. 13 MR. SMITH: Had you suffered from depression for 14 some period of time? 15 JUROR NO. 184: My older sister committed 16 suicide in 1985, and I think it was more of a gradual -- I 17 never really dealt with it or got over it until it all kind of 18 hit me at one time. 19 MR. SMITH: All right. In answers to Questions 20 25 and 26, you expressed some direct opinions in connection 21 with this case. In answer to 25 in connection with any 22 prejudice against Lilly, you say, "I don't feel the drug 23 company is responsible for the claim that it's being put to 24 trial for." Correct? 25 JUROR NO. 184: Right. 89 1 MR. SMITH: And in 26 you say, "I don't believe 2 that Mr. Wesbecker's actions were caused by Prozac," and that 3 you felt he acted as he would have even if he were off Prozac; 4 is that right? 5 JUROR NO. 184: Right. I do. 6 MR. SMITH: Do you have any particular knowledge 7 that caused you to come to that belief? 8 JUROR NO. 184: No. Just what I had actually 9 seen in the papers and on TV over the years. It seemed like 10 he had so many deep-rooted problems that I don't believe it 11 was from that. It was a series of basically his lifetime, 12 from what I've seen and read. 13 MR. SMITH: Obviously, all of us are entitled to 14 draw our opinions and conclusions based on what we read in the 15 newspaper. 16 JUROR NO. 184: Sure. 17 MR. SMITH: The question that we're interested 18 in here, both the lawyers for Lilly and me for the plaintiffs 19 in this case, is whether or not what you said is a bias for 20 the drug company and a bias that you feel that Prozac didn't 21 cause Mr. Wesbecker's actions, whether or not that would 22 affect your serving as a juror in this case. 23 JUROR NO. 184: Well, I don't think so because 24 that's my opinion now, but I haven't been exposed to anything 25 else. I mean, I haven't heard anything else. So I don't 90 1 think so. I don't know honestly, I couldn't... 2 MR. SMITH: Would you require me to put on more 3 evidence or would you put a heavier burden on me than you 4 would on Lilly than the ordinary juror would, you think? 5 JUROR NO. 184: It would be hard to say, but 6 realistically, maybe. 7 MR. SMITH: What we need to know is whether or 8 not you would be a fair and impartial juror in this case. I 9 know you would try to listen to the evidence and you can 10 predict based on what you know. Based on your experience with 11 Prozac, do you think that it would be better if you didn't 12 serve, Ms. Hamilton? 13 JUROR NO. 184: No. No. 14 MR. SMITH: Would you listen to the evidence and 15 put any preconceived ideas out of your mind and listen to our 16 evidence as equally as Lilly's evidence? 17 JUROR NO. 184: Yes. 18 MR. SMITH: And not base any verdict on any 19 experience you've had with Prozac? 20 JUROR NO. 184: Right. Because everybody is 21 different, so... 22 MR. SMITH: Sure. Right. And not base any idea 23 about Mr. Wesbecker based on what you read in the paper but 24 based on the real evidence that you hear in trial? 25 JUROR NO. 184: I would try. 91 1 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Ms. Hamilton. 2 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher? 3 MR. STOPHER: No questions, Your Honor. 4 JUDGE POTTER: Ms. Hamilton, I'm going to excuse 5 you till 9:00 tomorrow morning. If you would be in the jury 6 assembly area in the other building at 9:00 tomorrow morning. 7 I again remind you of my admonition. Do not let anybody speak 8 to or communicate with you on any topic connected with the 9 trial, and any attempt to do so should be reported to me. Of 10 course, don't discuss this with the other jurors or form any 11 opinions about it. 12 How are you, Ms. Howard? Have a seat, I'll 13 remind you you're still under oath. Okay. 14 Mr. Stopher? 15 MR. STOPHER: Ms. Howard, my name is Ed Stopher. 16 I wanted to ask you a couple of questions about your answers 17 on the questionnaire. You work for Seven Counties? 18 JUROR NO. 112: Right. 19 MR. STOPHER: And were you working there at the 20 time of this shooting on September 14, 1989? 21 JUROR NO. 112: Yes. I was working at a 22 different branch of Seven Counties at that time. 23 MR. STOPHER: Okay. And did you have any 24 personal contact with anybody at Standard Gravure, whether 25 they were a victim of the shooting or whether they saw it or 92 1 just happened to work there? Did some of those people come to 2 Seven Counties for counseling? 3 JUROR NO. 112: Not to my knowledge. 4 MR. STOPHER: If they did, you didn't have any 5 contact with them or with their records? 6 JUROR NO. 112: No. No. 7 MR. STOPHER: Okay. I also wanted to ask you -- 8 and I am not attempting to pry into your personal affairs, 9 that's no business of any of us except in connection with this 10 case, and I think you understand the reason for wanting to ask 11 about this. 12 JUROR NO. 112: Uh-huh. 13 MR. STOPHER: In answer to Question No. 22, you 14 indicated that someone that you know has taken Lithium, 15 Haldol, other medications related to psychiatric problems. Am 16 I correct about that? 17 JUROR NO. 112: Yes. 18 MR. STOPHER: Is this a member of your family or 19 is it just people that you see in connection with your work? 20 JUROR NO. 112: It was in connection to my work. 21 I was referring to clients. 22 MR. STOPHER: Okay. In other words, these would 23 be clients that you would come into contact with on a 24 professional basis? 25 JUROR NO. 112: Yes. 93 1 MR. STOPHER: Okay. Based on that kind of 2 experience, do you have opinions as to whether or not these 3 kinds of drugs -- you listed several of them. There are many, 4 many more I'm sure you didn't list -- that these can cause 5 somebody to become violent and to commit murder? 6 JUROR NO. 112: I believe on one question they 7 asked my opinion about whether I thought Prozac had an effect 8 on his behavior and I replied no, and that was just based on 9 my profession and the contact I've had with clients. 10 MR. STOPHER: Obviously, you've had contact with 11 people through the years who have, I suppose, been violent? 12 JUROR NO. 112: Yes. 13 MR. STOPHER: Been homicidal or suicidal; am I 14 correct? 15 JUROR NO. 112: Yes. Yes. 16 MR. STOPHER: And in this case, you're going to 17 be given a lot of evidence and a lot of facts about the life 18 of Joseph Wesbecker; you're going to be given a tremendous 19 amount of information about Prozac as an antidepressant and 20 asked to determine whether or not Prozac caused or contributed 21 to cause his homicidal activities on that date. Can you 22 decide the case based on what you hear in the courtroom and 23 not on what you have experienced in the past? 24 JUROR NO. 112: Yes. 25 MR. STOPHER: In other words, you can put aside 94 1 your past history of dealing with other cases and other drugs 2 at other times and decide it based on the evidence in this 3 case? 4 JUROR NO. 112: Yes. 5 MR. STOPHER: Thank you. I appreciate your 6 answers. 7 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith? 8 MR. SMITH: Ms. Howard, in answer to Question 26 9 you say that you do not believe that Prozac was a substantial 10 factor in causing or contributing to Mr. Wesbecker's behavior? 11 JUROR NO. 112: Yes. 12 MR. SMITH: On what facts do you base that 13 opinion? 14 JUROR NO. 112: It would just be on my 15 experience with working with clients that have been on 16 psychotropic medications, what I've experienced with their 17 decompensation and drug interactions. That's just what I 18 based it on. 19 MR. SMITH: Are you going to carry that 20 experience with you into the jury room? 21 JUROR NO. 112: No. I feel that I can be 22 unbiased. 23 MR. SMITH: Well, what kind of evidence are you 24 going to require to change your opinion that you hold now? 25 JUROR NO. 112: I guess it would just depend on 95 1 if you have medical facts. I really don't have any 2 preconceived ideas of what type of evidence I would need to 3 change my mind. 4 MR. SMITH: Can you think of anything, any 5 evidence that would change your mind? 6 JUROR NO. 112: Like I said, medical facts. If 7 you can provide any concrete information to the contrary. 8 MR. SMITH: What if the medical facts were -- 9 and I'll tell you now will be in dispute; in other words, 10 we'll have experts testify that Prozac did cause Mr. 11 Wesbecker, and that expert will explain his reasons and he'll 12 explain scientifically what his reasoning is. The lawyers for 13 Eli Lilly will put on medical experts to do the same thing. 14 Then you're going to have to make the decision after you've 15 heard conflicting evidence concerning whether or not Prozac 16 did in fact cause Joseph Wesbecker. Once you get to that 17 point, I'm wondering whether or not you're going to go back to 18 the opinion -- 19 MR. FREEMAN: Object to Counsel making her 20 prejudge. 21 MR. SMITH: May I please finish my question 22 first? 23 JUDGE POTTER: I'm overruling the objection. 24 MR. SMITH: Whether you're going to end up going 25 back to the opinion that you hold now. 96 1 JUROR NO. 112: I would have to say no, just 2 because of the profession I'm in. I have to be unbiased. I 3 work with so many different different types of clients, so 4 many cultural and economic biases, I know I can be unbiased if 5 I have to. 6 MR. SMITH: I appreciate that. Thank you, 7 ma'am. 8 JUDGE POTTER: I'm going to excuse you, Ms. 9 Howard, till 9:00 tomorrow morning and if you will be in the 10 jury assembly area where you went the first day and every day. 11 Again I remind you of my admonition. Do not permit anybody to 12 talk with you about this case. That includes talking to your 13 husband and your children. I guess you won't be talking to a 14 two-year-old, will you. And don't watch anything about it on 15 the newspaper or TV. Okay. Thank you, ma'am. 16 MR. SMITH: Can next time I get my question 17 concluded before the objection is raised? 18 JUDGE POTTER: That might be. I think sometime 19 when you have an objection to a question that might pollute 20 other people, I think maybe you can interrupt. But just go 21 ahead and let him finish. 22 MR. FREEMAN: All right, sir. 23 (OFF THE RECORD) 24 JUDGE POTTER: Hi. You're Ms. Ruby Jennette? 25 JUROR NO. 116: Yes, sir. 97 1 JUDGE POTTER: I remind you you're still under 2 oath, ma'am. These people may have some questions they may 3 want to ask you, and I guess it's yours, Mr. Smith. 4 MR. SMITH: How are you, Ms. Jennette? 5 JUROR NO. 116: Fine, thank you. 6 MR. SMITH: We've just got a couple of questions 7 for you. In your answer to Question 14, you indicated that 8 you had an uncle that was on antidepressant medication? 9 JUROR NO. 116: Yes. And I remembered 10 afterwards it was Lithium. And I really don't know the 11 circumstances under it or anything. I know he's off of it 12 because he went off of it himself because alcohol and medicine 13 didn't mix, so he chose the alcohol. So that's all I know. 14 MR. SMITH: Anything about that that would 15 affect your judgment here, Ms. Jennette? 16 JUROR NO. 116: No. 17 MR. SMITH: You have children? 18 JUROR NO. 116: Yes. Two sons. 19 MR. SMITH: And what do they do, please? 20 JUROR NO. 116: I have one, my oldest son owns a 21 Laundromat on Preston and my youngest son works at Henry Vogt. 22 MR. SMITH: Doing what? 23 JUROR NO. 116: Now, I really don't know. His 24 job has changed. He got -- the business got a little low 25 there and they put him on a different job, but I don't know 98 1 what he does. 2 JUDGE POTTER: Anything else, Mr. Smith? 3 MR. SMITH: That's all. 4 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher? 5 MR. STOPHER: No questions, Your Honor. 6 JUDGE POTTER: I'm going to excuse you till 9:00 7 tomorrow morning, and I'll ask that you be in the jury 8 assembly area over there. And I'm going to give you the same 9 admonition I've given you before. Don't let anybody talk to 10 you about this case or communicate with you and don't you talk 11 with anybody else about it, your family members or the other 12 jurors and don't watch anything on TV or the newspaper about 13 it. Thank you. 14 You are Mr. Kinkel; is that right, sir? 15 JUROR NO. 68: Yes. 16 JUDGE POTTER: I'll remind you you're still 17 under oath. These gentlemen have some questions for you. 18 Mr. Stopher? 19 MR. STOPHER: Mr. Kinkel, my name is Ed Stopher. 20 I wanted to ask you about a couple of answers that you gave on 21 the questionnaire, sir. You indicated that -- and I want you 22 to understand none of us are interested in discussing your 23 family matters and have no right to do that except in the 24 context of this case; is that agreeable and understood by you, 25 sir? 99 1 JUROR NO. 68: Uh-huh. 2 MR. STOPHER: You indicated that you have a 3 sister who suffered from bulimia and anorexia and eating 4 disorders. Am I right, sir? 5 JUROR NO. 68: Correct. Correct. 6 MR. STOPHER: Is this a long-time problem with 7 her? 8 JUROR NO. 68: It had been, yeah. It had begun 9 at a very early age, probably 14, and now she's 34. 10 MR. STOPHER: And was she treated by a 11 psychiatrist and psychologist in connection with those 12 problems? 13 JUROR NO. 68: Which is the one that can 14 prescribe drugs? 15 MR. STOPHER: Psychiatrist. 16 JUROR NO. 68: It would be a psychologist then. 17 She's never received any drug treatment at all. 18 MR. STOPHER: Okay. Was the situation resolved 19 satisfactorily through psychological counseling? 20 JUROR NO. 68: Yeah. Yes, sir. 21 MR. STOPHER: You indicated in another answer 22 that she had been under psychiatric care, but now having 23 thought about it, it was psychological care? 24 JUROR NO. 68: Yes. Absolutely. 25 MR. STOPHER: Okay, sir. You also indicated, 100 1 sir, in answer to No. 30, that your father and your brother 2 are physicians? 3 JUROR NO. 68: Uh-huh. I also forgot, my 4 girlfriend is also a physician. 5 MR. STOPHER: All right, sir. Is your father 6 and brother, are they physicians in this area? 7 JUROR NO. 68: My father is retired; my brother 8 is a physician in New Mexico; my girlfriend is a physician in 9 Lexington. 10 MR. STOPHER: Your father was a physician here? 11 JUROR NO. 68: In Bowling Green. 12 MR. STOPHER: In Bowling Green. And what is his 13 name, sir? 14 JUROR NO. 68: Doctor Donald Kinkel. 15 MR. STOPHER: And what was his specialty? 16 JUROR NO. 68: Anesthesia. 17 MR. STOPHER: And your brother's name, sir? 18 JUROR NO. 68: Doctor Doug Kinkel, sir. He's an 19 emergency room physician. 20 MR. STOPHER: I take it he's probably just been 21 out of medical school a short period of time? 22 JUROR NO. 68: Let's see. He graduated eight, 23 nine years ago, maybe. 24 MR. STOPHER: Okay. Do you know, sir, if your 25 father or your brother have ever had an opportunity to 101 1 prescribe Prozac or not to prescribe Prozac for some 2 particular reason? 3 JUROR NO. 68: It's something we don't even 4 discuss, so I wouldn't have any idea. 5 MR. STOPHER: Now your girlfriend, sir. 6 JUROR NO. 68: No. She's just out of medical 7 school in her first year of residency. 8 MR. STOPHER: And she's in Lexington, I assume 9 at the University of Kentucky? 10 JUROR NO. 68: Correct. 11 MR. STOPHER: Does she have an announced 12 preference as to what she wants to do? 13 JUROR NO. 68: Never discussed it. 14 MR. STOPHER: Okay, sir. In connection, sir, 15 with your employment, you have obviously studied geography and 16 meteorology and are employed now as a geographer? 17 JUROR NO. 68: I'm employed as a geographer for 18 the U.S. Census Bureau. 19 MR. STOPHER: And is that actually connected 20 with mapping? 21 JUROR NO. 68: Yes. Automated mapping 22 specialist. 23 MR. STOPHER: Do you do that with computers? 24 JUROR NO. 68: Yes, sir. 25 MR. STOPHER: Does it involve actually taking 102 1 measurements and statistics to arrive at these maps; they're 2 not hand drawn like they used to be in Columbus' day? 3 JUROR NO. 68: We are converting them from hand 4 drawn to computer maps. 5 MR. STOPHER: And I take it this is something 6 that you've done for eight years? 7 JUROR NO. 68: Yes, sir. 8 MR. STOPHER: With the Census Bureau? 9 JUROR NO. 68: Yes, sir. 10 MR. STOPHER: Okay. Mr. Kinkel, you indicated 11 on the questionnaire answers that you do not have an opinion 12 about the outcome of this case. Have you read and heard 13 things about the shooting incidents? 14 JUROR NO. 68: Only about when it originally 15 happened. Yes, I remember when it originally happened. I 16 just moved here and I remember that the case at the time some 17 people thought that the drug Prozac may have influenced this 18 person to do this and other people felt that it wasn't. I 19 just remember that there was a controversy about it. I didn't 20 know that this case was even coming up until Monday. A real 21 shock. 22 MR. STOPHER: All right, sir. Okay. Do you 23 have any opinion now after all these years as to how the case 24 should come out or any ideas about which side of the argument 25 is right or wrong? 103 1 JUROR NO. 68: No, sir. I've never researched 2 it. I've never looked into it. It isn't my area of 3 expertise. 4 JUDGE POTTER: Yet. 5 MR. STOPHER: You also indicated, sir, that you 6 do have a number of firearms, but I take it that they're all 7 related to hunting? 8 JUROR NO. 68: Yes. I'm a very avid hunter. 9 MR. STOPHER: I take it you don't own and have 10 never fired assault rifles? 11 JUROR NO. 68: No, sir. 12 MR. STOPHER: I believe those are all the 13 questions I have, sir. 14 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith? 15 MR. SMITH: Sir, I'm Paul Smith. Do you work 16 with computers on a daily basis in connection with your work? 17 JUROR NO. 68: Yes, sir. Yes, sir. 18 MR. SMITH: So you're pretty familiar with 19 computer data bases and things of that nature? 20 JUROR NO. 68: I create them, yes. 21 MR. SMITH: Are you an actual -- see, they've 22 already made fun of me about my computer knowledge. 23 Throughout this case they've been making fun of me. But 24 you're one who actually designs programs? 25 JUROR NO. 68: Yes, sir. 104 1 MR. SMITH: And you do a lot of statistical 2 work, also; is that right? 3 JUROR NO. 68: Uh-huh. 4 MR. SMITH: Do you place computer data and 5 statistical data at a higher scientific level than physicians' 6 opinions based on physicians' experience and other scientific 7 lines of inquiry? 8 JUROR NO. 68: It would really depend on the 9 circumstances. 10 MR. SMITH: There is going to be evidence in 11 this case -- this is going to be where the experts say there's 12 a number of things that need to be considered in looking at 13 this issue. Number One, the opinions of the doctors; Number 14 Two, the opinions of the investigators; Number Three, 15 statistical data. You may even hear some census data. 16 JUROR NO. 68: Uh-huh. 17 MR. SMITH: And then there's going to be some 18 computer information. Are you going to place any one 19 particular piece of evidence now over and above any other 20 evidence? 21 JUROR NO. 68: No, sir. 22 MR. SMITH: You may find some more informative 23 than others? 24 JUROR NO. 68: Yeah. Opinions are opinions, 25 statistics are statistics; either one can be manipulated good 105 1 or bad and no one is more truthful than another. Being a 2 105 3 scientist, I've seen it used in all different directions, both 4 good and bad. So I don't really weigh one above the other. 5 MR. SMITH: Good. That's all I have. 6 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Kinkel, I'm going to excuse 7 you till 9:00 tomorrow morning. Will you please be in the 8 assembly area at 9:00 tomorrow morning? Also, I remind you 9 not to talk about this case with anyone, including other 10 jurors or family, friends, or anything like that, and do not 11 watch the TV or the newspaper having to do with this case. 12 Okay. Thank you very much, sir. 13 JUROR NO. 68: Thank you. 14 JUDGE POTTER: You're Mr. Kopp; is that right? 15 I want to remind you you're still under oath. Mr. Kopp, when 16 you passed me in the hallway out there, going to the jury 17 pool, wasn't it you that said you wanted to say something? 18 Have a seat, sir. You can say it now. 19 JUROR NO. 127: I've got a lawsuit pending over 20 my car. It's on that paper over in the jury pool. They told 21 me today that I might say something to you to remind you. 22 They said you knew about it already but that's... 23 JUDGE POTTER: That's what you've got written 24 down here, "Civil, my car." These attorneys may have some 25 questions for you. 106 1 Mr. Smith? 2 MR. SMITH: Mr. Kopp, I'm Paul Smith. I see 3 here where your wife was treated for depression; is that 4 right? 5 JUROR NO. 127: Yes, sir. 6 MR. SMITH: You say you don't know the dates. 7 Has that been recently or has that been some time ago? 8 JUROR NO. 127: It's been some time. I don't 9 know the dates. 10 MR. SMITH: Did she receive medication as part 11 of her treatment or did she just have counseling? 12 JUROR NO. 127: No. No counseling. She was 13 medicated. She didn't go to counseling. 14 MR. SMITH: Any idea what type of medication she 15 received? 16 JUROR NO. 127: No, sir; I don't. 17 MR. SMITH: Was it beneficial to her? 18 JUROR NO. 127: I think it helped her. I mean, 19 you know -- yeah, it helped her. 20 MR. SMITH: Anything about that that would 21 affect your judgment in listening to this case? 22 JUROR NO. 127: No, sir. Not at all. 23 MR. SMITH: Thank you, sir. That's all. 24 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher? 25 MR. STOPHER: Mr. Kopp, if I recall correctly, 107 1 you indicated the other day in the courtroom that you have a 2 grievance? 3 JUROR NO. 127: Yes, sir. 4 MR. STOPHER: And that would have been against 5 your employer? 6 JUROR NO. 127: Louisville Gas & Electric. 7 MR. STOPHER: Is it something related to work 8 conditions? 9 JUROR NO. 127: What it is, we had a bump and 10 roll. I got laid off in December. I was working 11 construction. We got laid off. I had 27 years, so I had a 12 chance to bump and roll. I bumped into a job that was not a 13 line-of-progression job, meaning that I couldn't go higher 14 than $14 an hour. There was another job that was $12 an hour. 15 The other guy with less seniority took that job and then they 16 changed his job to a line of progression where he could go up 17 to $19 an hour, and that's what the grievance is about. I'm 18 filing against the company trying to get that job. 19 MR. STOPHER: Are you connected with the union 20 as an official or an officer? 21 JUROR NO. 127: No, sir. No, sir. 22 MR. STOPHER: Okay. All right. You indicated 23 on the questionnaire, sir, that you have no opinion about the 24 way this case should turn out? 25 JUROR NO. 127: Right. 108 1 MR. STOPHER: I also saw that you said that you 2 had not even read anything about this case, if I recall 3 correctly? 4 JUROR NO. 127: The only thing I know about the 5 case is what everybody else knows about what was in the 6 newspapers. 7 MR. STOPHER: In connection with your work at 8 LG&E, sir, had you been in the Standard Gravure plant with 9 electrical work and that sort of thing? 10 JUROR NO. 127: I worked -- I didn't tell 11 you-all this, but it was 27, 28 years ago and I didn't think 12 it would have any bearing on it. I didn't know any of the 13 people involved, but I did work at The Courier-Journal and 14 they was affiliated with Standard Gravure. But being, like I 15 say, 28 years ago I didn't think it had any bearing on this 16 case, so I didn't bring it up. 17 MR. STOPHER: Did you work in the pressroom? 18 JUROR NO. 127: At the black-and-white pressroom 19 at The Courier, not at Standard Gravure. 20 MR. STOPHER: Were you in training to become a 21 pressman or were you a pressman? 22 JUROR NO. 127: I was in training to become a 23 pressman. 24 MR. STOPHER: And I think they used to call them 25 in those days fly-boys? 109 1 JUROR NO. 127: Yes, sir. That's what I was. 2 MR. STOPHER: Did you leave there voluntarily to 3 transfer? 4 JUROR NO. 127: I left there because I was only 5 getting three days a week, and I was married and I needed more 6 money. Everybody knows how that is. I left there 7 voluntarily. 8 MR. STOPHER: Thank you, sir. I think those are 9 all the questions I have. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Kopp, I'm going to excuse 11 you. You're free to leave. Be in the jury pool room at 9:00 12 tomorrow morning. I also remind you, sir, do not let anybody 13 talk to you or communicate with you about this case, including 14 reading about it in the newspaper or listening to it on TV, 15 and don't discuss it with your jury. 16 JUROR NO. 127: I'm released? 17 JUDGE POTTER: We're going to pick up with you 18 again. 19 JUROR NO. 127: They say report back to them and 20 let them know. 21 JUDGE POTTER: You don't have to report back 22 there. You can go straight home and be here at 9:00 tomorrow 23 morning. Thank you, sir. 24 JUDGE POTTER: How are you, Mr. Lacefield? 25 JUROR NO. 1: Fine. How are you today? 110 1 JUDGE POTTER: I want to remind you you're still 2 under oath, sir. These gentlemen may have some questions for 3 you. 4 Mr. Stopher? 5 MR. STOPHER: Mr. Lacefield, my name is Ed 6 Stopher, and I wanted to ask you just one or two questions, 7 sir. You indicated on the questionnaire that you own or 8 somebody in your household owns three -- 9 JUROR NO. 1: I own those guns. 10 MR. STOPHER: Okay. You've got a pistol or two 11 pistols and a rifle? 12 JUROR NO. 1: That's what's in the house; that's 13 right. 14 MR. STOPHER: I assume that you have those for 15 hunting or for self protection? 16 JUROR NO. 1: Well, at one time I had them for 17 self protection, but now the grandchildren are coming and 18 going and I've got the ammunition in one place and the guns in 19 the other, so it's no protection. 20 MR. STOPHER: Protecting them from themselves; 21 right? 22 JUROR NO. 1: I don't want the kids to get hold 23 of them. 24 MR. STOPHER: Absolutely. Just one other area, 25 sir, that I wanted to ask you about. You indicated that you 111 1 had read an article about Prozac and you indicated that you 2 thought that it was probably in Reader's Digest that you read 3 that? 4 JUROR NO. 1: I think so. I couldn't swear to 5 that. 6 MR. STOPHER: Okay, sir. Do you remember 7 anything about that article and about its views on Prozac? 8 JUROR NO. 1: Oh, yeah. Yes. 9 MR. STOPHER: What do you recall about the views 10 or the opinions regarding the safety of Prozac and whether or 11 not it causes homicide in individuals? 12 JUROR NO. 1: This article was biased, I guess. 13 Anyway, the author of the article had had -- all their life 14 had had a depression and took Prozac and it opened up a whole 15 new world for them. They said it was a wonderful drug. 16 MR. STOPHER: You recognize that that was the 17 view of one person? 18 JUROR NO. 1: Right. 19 MR. STOPHER: And is that going to determine the 20 issue in your mind as to what the verdict ought to be in this 21 case, sir? 22 JUROR NO. 1: No, sir; it will not. I don't 23 know a thing about Prozac other than what I've read. And I 24 assume they're going to tell me all about it if I sit on this 25 jury. 112 1 MR. STOPHER: That's one thing that we can 2 probably all agree on; you'll know a whole lot about Prozac. 3 Other than that, sir, do you have any opinions 4 based on anything that you've read or heard or seen? 5 JUROR NO. 1: No. I don't know whether it's 6 good or whether it has side effects. I don't know that at 7 this point. 8 MR. STOPHER: All right. Finally, sir, 9 obviously you've lived here in Louisville for four decades, 10 according to the questionnaire. Do you have an opinion about 11 why Joseph Wesbecker did what he did on September 14, 1989? 12 JUROR NO. 1: Yeah. I have an opinion. I think 13 he was crazy. 14 MR. STOPHER: Is that an opinion that's like 15 your opinion about Prozac? It's one that you're going to 16 listen to the evidence in this case and make a decision? 17 JUROR NO. 1: Yeah. I can do that. But at this 18 time from what I've read, I think he was out of his mind. 19 MR. STOPHER: Do you have an opinion, whether or 20 not he was crazy or out of his mind, that Prozac did or didn't 21 have any effect on him? 22 JUROR NO. 1: No. I can't say. 23 MR. STOPHER: You have an open mind on the 24 ultimate issue in the case? 25 JUROR NO. 1: Yeah. It may have side effects 113 1 that affects people that way. I just don't know. 2 MR. STOPHER: All right. That's all I want to 3 ask you, sir. 4 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith? 5 MR. SMITH: Mr. Lacefield, you indicated in your 6 questionnaire that sometimes it takes the FDA too long to 7 approve a new drug? 8 JUROR NO. 1: Yeah. I read about that all the 9 time. 10 MR. SMITH: Have you read about situations where 11 the FDA had approved drugs and then problems had arisen with 12 those drugs? 13 JUROR NO. 1: Yes. I've read that. 14 MR. SMITH: So you see there's two sides to that 15 story in connection with FDA approval of a drug? 16 JUROR NO. 1: Yes, I guess so. I'll have to 17 agree with you there. I think they wait two or three years 18 sometimes to approve a drug that should have been on the 19 market maybe earlier. 20 MR. SMITH: Have you ever seen any instances 21 where they might have approved a drug too quickly? 22 JUROR NO. 1: No. 23 MR. SMITH: Would you have an open mind about 24 that? 25 JUROR NO. 1: Yes. I think I would. I think 114 1 so. 2 MR. SMITH: I've got one final question for you, 3 Mr. Lacefield. I want you to give me an honest answer on 4 this. 5 JUROR NO. 1: Okay. 6 MR. SMITH: How did you get Juror Badge No. 1? 7 JUROR NO. 1: I happened to be sitting in that 8 seat. I didn't pick it out, but I was sitting in that seat 9 and they called it first. 10 MR. STOPHER: Somebody's got to be No. 1, huh? 11 JUROR NO. 1: Yeah. 12 JUDGE POTTER: I'm going to excuse you till 9:00 13 tomorrow morning. Please be back in the jury pool assembly 14 area at 9:00 tomorrow morning. In the interim I remind you of 15 my admonition. Do not allow anybody to talk to you about this 16 case, don't talk about it with anybody. Obviously, stay away 17 from the TV and the newspapers. Thank you, sir. 18 JUROR NO. 1: Thank you very much. 19 JUDGE POTTER: How are you? You're Ms. Laurie? 20 JUROR NO. 202: Yes. 21 JUDGE POTTER: I want to remind you you're still 22 under oath. These gentlemen have some questions for you. 23 Mr. Smith? 24 MR. SMITH: Hi, Ms. Laurie. Let's see. In 25 response to your questionnaire in connection with Question 25, 115 1 you said that you do have a preconceived bias. You question 2 if a company can be held responsible for actions of an 3 individual. 4 JUROR NO. 202: Yes, sir. 5 MR. SMITH: And in answer to 26, you have a 6 general feeling of doubt as to the responsibility of the drug 7 of Prozac in connection with Mr. Wesbecker's conduct? 8 JUROR NO. 202: Yes. 9 MR. SMITH: Can you give us a little more 10 details on your feelings in this connection? 11 JUROR NO. 202: Well, I think that under the 12 circumstances and knowing what his condition was and all the 13 conditions he -- the treatment that he had received and all 14 the things I've read about it and the fact that -- for 15 example, I understand from a long profile they did about him, 16 in the profile, that even the doctor wanted him to -- wanted 17 to put him in the hospital and he wouldn't go, you know. And 18 so I have a problem with not being able to hospitalize people 19 that you feel are a danger and should be hospitalized, which 20 we seem to find happening nowadays. I have a little problem 21 with that. 22 MR. SMITH: You think that he should have been 23 hospitalized? 24 JUROR NO. 202: Yes, I do. That society should 25 have had some way to protect itself from this when they were 116 1 aware of how seriously ill he was. And that he had given 2 evidence of serious illness and violence prior to -- it's my 3 memory and my understanding prior to his use of Prozac. So I 4 would be loath to say that I think I could hold that 5 responsibility. 6 MR. SMITH: Do you think that these opinions 7 that he should have been hospitalized is something that should 8 have been done, to hospitalize, and do you think these 9 opinions concerning individuals being responsible for their 10 own conduct is going to affect your deliberations in this 11 case, Ms. Laurie? 12 JUROR NO. 202: I think so. If I'm honest with 13 you, I would say that. 14 MR. SMITH: I appreciate that. And do you think 15 that's going to cause and affect your verdict in this case? 16 JUROR NO. 202: If you don't mind, I also have 17 problems about all the litigation. If you really want me to 18 tell you what I think, you know. 19 MS. ZETTLER: Sure. 20 MR. SMITH: Sure. Sure. 21 JUROR NO. 202: I think we live in a society 22 where everybody it seems to me is suing everybody, and I think 23 it's having a real serious and damaging negative effect on 24 American society in lots of ways. 25 MR. SMITH: You're certainly entitled to have 117 1 that opinion. 2 JUROR NO. 202: I also have strong feelings 3 about the weapons. For example, I think that couldn't 4 something have been done to keep this man from being sent this 5 weapon or being able to buy this weapon. You know, I hold 6 those people responsible, as well, if I were going to hold 7 somebody responsible. 8 MR. SMITH: It sounds to me like Lilly's going 9 to be the last person you're going to hold responsible for 10 this. 11 JUROR NO. 202: Well, perhaps so, yeah. 12 MR. SMITH: And that your bias is going to 13 effect a verdict that makes it much more likely that -- 14 JUROR NO. 202: If I were a plaintiff in this 15 case I wouldn't want me on the jury, and that's being as 16 honest with you as I can. I'm not just saying that. I'm 17 sincere. 18 MR. SMITH: You're certainly entitled to your 19 beliefs. You think those beliefs are going to be further than 20 just beliefs, that you are going to carry those into the jury 21 room and they're going to affect your verdict regardless of 22 how you're instructed? 23 JUROR NO. 202: Yeah. If I really hold these 24 beliefs and believe this sincerely, then I just am not 25 convinced that I could say that this drug was the 118 1 precipitating factor. 2 MR. SMITH: There are several beliefs that you 3 hold that you think make you, as you say, if you were 4 representing the plaintiffs you would not want you? 5 JUROR NO. 202: Well, that's... 6 MR. SMITH: What you've listed here? 7 JUROR NO. 202: That's right. 8 MR. SMITH: Thank you. I appreciate your 9 candor, Ms. Laurie. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher? 11 MR. STOPHER: I have no questions, Judge. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Ms. Laurie, could I get you to 13 just wait outside the room there for just a second? 14 (OFF THE RECORD) 15 MR. SMITH: We have a motion, Your Honor. 16 JUDGE POTTER: And I'll grant it. 17 JUDGE POTTER: Will you have Ms. Laurie step 18 back in? 19 JUDGE POTTER: Ms. Laurie, I am going to excuse 20 you, and I can obviously tell you understand that's no 21 reflection on you. 22 JUROR NO. 202: Yes. I understand that. 23 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. And you have fun at the 24 polls this time. 25 MR. SMITH: Can I ask her? 119 1 (OFF THE RECORD) 2 JUDGE POTTER: Let me say one other thing, Ms. 3 Laurie. 4 JUROR NO. 202: Sure. 5 JUDGE POTTER: Since I felt you were going to be 6 excused, I called you back and excused you. Some people don't 7 know they've been excused because we didn't do it till after 8 they've left, and some people haven't been excused and they're 9 coming back tomorrow to go on forward with the jury, so don't 10 talk about this case with any of your jurors over there. 11 JUROR NO. 202: Now I may go home today? 12 JUDGE POTTER: And they'll tell you whether to 13 come back or not. 14 JUROR NO. 202: Thank you very much. Good luck 15 to all of you. 16 JUDGE POTTER: You're Mr. David Mader; is that 17 right, sir? 18 JUROR NO. 179: Yes, sir. 19 JUDGE POTTER: I'll remind you you're still 20 under oath, sir. These gentlemen may have some questions for 21 you. 22 MR. STOPHER: Mr. Mader, my name is Ed Stopher. 23 I wanted to ask you a few questions, sir, about the 24 questionnaire that you were kind enough to answer for us. You 25 indicated that you have a prejudice or a bias against the 120 1 pharmaceutical industry? 2 JUROR NO. 179: Well, my first wife died from an 3 ulcer, and she took literally buckets of pills and they didn't 4 do her any good. And I currently have a son that has an 5 ulcer. He has a time living for the price of them. He gets 6 four pills for $20, and he takes three a day. 7 MR. STOPHER: What is the condition, sir, that 8 he takes those pills for? 9 JUROR NO. 179: Ulcers. 10 MR. STOPHER: Ulcers. And, in other words, it's 11 your belief that the pharmaceutical supplier of that 12 medication is charging too much, given your son's financial 13 condition and the medical condition that he's in? 14 JUROR NO. 179: I'm of that opinion. 15 MR. STOPHER: All right, sir. Do you think that 16 bias or that prejudice is going to affect your thinking about 17 another pharmaceutical manufacturer? 18 JUROR NO. 179: I would think it would pertain 19 to all of them. 20 MR. STOPHER: Okay. Including Eli Lilly and 21 Company? 22 JUROR NO. 179: Yes, sir. 23 MR. STOPHER: Is that an idea that you don't 24 just have now but it's an idea that you're always going to 25 have because of your son and his situation? 121 1 JUROR NO. 179: And my first wife. 2 MR. STOPHER: And your first wife, sir? 3 JUROR NO. 179: Yes. 4 MR. STOPHER: Do you think it may enter into 5 your decision about the verdict in this case? 6 JUROR NO. 179: I don't see how I can keep from 7 it. 8 MR. STOPHER: Okay. It will be there? 9 JUROR NO. 179: (Nods head affirmatively). 10 MR. STOPHER: Okay. In light of that, sir, do 11 you think it may affect the way you would vote at the end of 12 this case because you can't put it aside? 13 JUROR NO. 179: Yes, sir. 14 MR. STOPHER: Okay. Sir, that's all I have, 15 sir. 16 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith? 17 MR. SMITH: We don't have anything, Your Honor. 18 JUDGE POTTER: I take it Mr. Stopher is going to 19 make a motion and there won't be any argument. 20 MR. SMITH: Correct. 21 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Mader, I'm going to excuse 22 you from this case. Okay? But what you need to do is call 23 that telephone number on your badge and they'll tell you 24 whether to come in tomorrow or not. 25 Let me say something else to you. Even though 122 1 you're being excused from this case, there are some other 2 jurors over there that haven't been excused and they'll be in 3 122 4 the jury pool room with you. So I'm going to ask you not to 5 talk about this case -- you can talk about it with somebody 6 outside of here but not anybody in the courthouse because they 7 may be prospective jurors. So maybe they'll find you a nice, 8 good, juicy murder case that doesn't -- 9 JUROR NO. 179: Go back to the jury room now? 10 JUDGE POTTER: No. You can go home and call 11 that telephone number and they'll tell you what to do. Thank 12 you very much. 13 (LUNCH RECESS) 14 JUDGE POTTER: I think we did this this morning, 15 but I don't know that it's on the record. By agreement, Ms. 16 Agnes O'Reilly, No. 214, can be excused; is that all right? 17 MR. FREEMAN: Yes, sir. 18 JUDGE POTTER: And if it means anything, she 19 called in the second day today and said she was ill and was 20 going to get herself a doctor's note, and the jury pool 21 reported she didn't sound ill or anything, but you-all agree 22 that she can be excused? 23 MS. ZETTLER: Yes, sir. 24 MR. FREEMAN: Yes, sir. 25 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. I've had the jury pool 123 1 sort of watch Ms. Gregory just to make sure that she doesn't 2 get in any mischief, and she's over here; even though she's in 3 the other 50, I had them bring her over here. What do you 4 envision happening, Mr. Smith, that I will ask her if she's 5 talked to other jurors or what do you envision happening? 6 MR. SMITH: I think that, yeah, that sounds like 7 a reasonable idea to me, also. I'd like to question her about 8 how come she brought her questionnaire back late, if she took 9 it home and didn't go to the jury room and fill it out as 10 instructed, whether she got any help in filling out the 11 questionnaire. If she talked to any jurors, who she talked 12 to. Also, we have the name of the neighbor that expressed 13 some strong unfounded opinions concerning Mr. Wesbecker's 14 condition. 15 JUDGE POTTER: Wait. I don't understand. Tell 16 me about the neighbor again. 17 MR. SMITH: She said that when this happened, 18 she was in another part of the city or state. 19 JUDGE POTTER: Yeah. She drove home and there 20 were some people standing outside of his house or across the 21 street. 22 MR. SMITH: And she went there and pulled into 23 the neighbor's house and talked to some of them. She couldn't 24 remember their name. 25 JUDGE POTTER: And you now know who those people 124 1 are? 2 MR. SMITH: I know one person that expressed an 3 opinion and gave a deposition. I don't know whether she 4 talked to her or not. 5 JUDGE POTTER: And you want to ask if who? 6 MR. SMITH: Deidre Meredith. 7 JUDGE POTTER: Do you know where she lives? 8 MS. ZETTLER: She was, I believe, right next 9 door. I don't know what side of the household. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Does anybody know what she looks 11 like? Just because she may not know her by name. 12 MR. STOPHER: I don't remember. I remember the 13 name, and I think she lives across the street. 14 MR. SMITH: You remember the boat don't float? 15 MR. STOPHER: No. That's not her. That was 16 someone else. That was another neighbor. 17 JUDGE POTTER: Is this another colorful phrase 18 for one can short of a six pack? Okay. 19 MR. STOPHER: No, that was someone else. No, I 20 don't. It was not a neighbor, though. 21 JUDGE POTTER: How are you, Ms. Gregory? 22 JUROR NO. 205: Fine, thank you. 23 JUDGE POTTER: I wanted to sort of follow up on 24 a few things, and I'll remind you you're still under oath. 25 Have you chatted with any other jurors about what's gone on in 125 1 here in the sense of maybe not telling them what you said or 2 anything or expressed any opinions about the case but, you 3 know, telling them the types of questions that were asked in 4 here and what the topics were or anything like that? 5 JUROR NO. 205: You mean, what you have asked 6 me? 7 JUDGE POTTER: Yeah. That kind of stuff, you 8 know, "They asked me if I had any opinions. They asked me if 9 I owned any guns." Or forget all the questions that were 10 asked, but did you talk to other jurors about what went on in 11 here, what the questions are? 12 JUROR NO. 205: Just that, "It's more or less 13 what they've been asking all along." 14 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Who were you talking to? 15 JUROR NO. 205: Wait a minute. It was one of 16 the ladies. I don't know her name and I don't know what 17 number she had on. She's not in here today. 18 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Did you -- did you tell 19 them -- did you tell her how you had answered the questions? 20 JUROR NO. 205: No. 21 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Let me -- since you were 22 here some people looked up some additional information. Does 23 the name Deidre Meredith mean anything to you, that she might 24 be the neighbor you were talking to right after this happened? 25 You know, you told us you were on the highway somewhere, you 126 1 were heading home, and when you got there, there were people 2 outside Mr. Wesbecker's house and you stopped and talked to 3 some neighbors. I just wondered if that was the name. 4 JUROR NO. 205: It doesn't sound familiar. That 5 could be her name. I really don't know. 6 JUDGE POTTER: When we were going over the 7 questionnaires, we noticed that maybe the staff over there 8 lost it or something. Did you take yours home and fill it out 9 or did you fill it out over there? 10 JUROR NO. 205: No. I filled it out over there. 11 JUDGE POTTER: And handed it in that night? 12 JUROR NO. 205: Uh-huh. 13 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Mr. Stopher, do you have 14 any further questions of Ms. Gregory? 15 MR. STOPHER: No, Your Honor. 16 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith? 17 MR. SMITH: Since you've been called for jury 18 service have you discussed the fact that you're on this 19 jury -- potentially on this jury with any of your neighbors, 20 Ms. Gregory? 21 JUROR NO. 205: No. I haven't even talked to my 22 neighbors. 23 MR. SMITH: Do you have some neighbors there 24 that you talk with on a regular basis? 25 JUROR NO. 205: Not much. We don't get out a 127 1 whole lot. You know, my neighbors that I would be talking 2 with have been gone all week on vacation, and the others, I'll 3 wave as we go by, you know, something like that. But, no, I 4 haven't spoken with them. 5 MR. SMITH: That's all I have, Your Honor. 6 JUDGE POTTER: Ms. Gregory, I'm going to as far 7 as you're concerned take a recess till 9:00 tomorrow morning, 8 if you'll be back over in the jury pool area in the other 9 building at 9:00. I give you my admonition. Do not talk to 10 anybody about this case and do not permit anybody to talk to 11 you. And that covers everything beyond saying, "I'm on jury 12 duty and this is the case." I mean, obviously, you can tell 13 your husband the name of the case and why you're here. But 14 even though it might seem totally harmless just to say they 15 asked me questions about who my neighbor might be or something 16 like that, don't talk to anybody, particularly the other 17 jurors about this case, and don't get any information from the 18 press or the TV. Okay? 19 JUROR NO. 205: Okay. 20 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much. 21 Okay. Rather than take her up at this time, I 22 think everybody's memory about what went on is going to be 23 fresh and we'll just take up whatever motions we have to when 24 we have to. We'll go with Mr. Miller. 25 JUDGE POTTER: You're Mr. Michael Miller; is 128 1 that right? 2 JUROR NO. 172: Yes. That's correct. 3 JUDGE POTTER: And I want to remind you, sir, 4 you're under oath. Just out of curiosity, you weren't here 5 yesterday; is that right? 6 JUROR NO. 172: That's correct. I was 7 recovering from a stomach virus or something. 8 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. I didn't know whether you 9 misunderstood me or whatever. These gentlemen have some 10 questions for you, and my file would show it's Mr. Smith's 11 turn to start. 12 MR. SMITH: Thanks for coming back in, Mr. 13 Miller. 14 JUROR NO. 172: Sure. 15 MR. SMITH: In answer to the questionnaire, No. 16 26, you indicated that in connection with whether or not 17 Prozac was a factor in Mr. Wesbecker's actions on September 18 14th, 1989, that, quote, my first thought without any 19 additional knowledge of the drug would be that any drug, be it 20 Prozac or aspirin, other than narcotics or alcohol, could not 21 have influenced Wesbecker's action to any great degree. The 22 problems were deeper within Wesbecker, end quote; correct? 23 JUROR NO. 172: (Nods head affirmatively). 24 MR. SMITH: Can you give us some explanation, 25 Mr. Miller, concerning what knowledge you have concerning Mr. 129 1 Wesbecker's problems that might have been deeper that you 2 referred to? 3 JUROR NO. 172: The reason of my saying that 4 statement that way was from the information that I heard, 5 radio, newspaper, whatever. It was more of a mental, it tied 6 in more with the depression, his personality and effect of the 7 drug itself. 8 MR. SMITH: All right. Well, have you read 9 anything specifically about Mr. Wesbecker's mental condition 10 versus the effect of Prozac on his mental condition? 11 JUROR NO. 172: No. 12 MR. SMITH: In other words, Mr. Wesbecker was 13 under the care of a psychiatrist for a mental illness for 14 which Prozac was designed to alleviate; do you understand 15 that? 16 JUROR NO. 172: Uh-huh. 17 MR. SMITH: And my question is, can you listen 18 to the evidence concerning his illness and Prozac without any 19 preconceived bias concerning Prozac or the illness? 20 JUROR NO. 172: I would think so. My mind is 21 still pretty open about the effects of Prozac or what that 22 does exactly to someone's state of depression. 23 MR. SMITH: Do you know of anyone who has taken 24 Prozac? 25 JUROR NO. 172: No. I know no one. 130 1 MR. SMITH: Have you read anything about Prozac? 2 JUROR NO. 172: Hunh-uh. Other than what it's 3 used for. 4 MR. SMITH: Do you think that you'll be able to 5 put your initial impressions or, as you say, your first 6 thought aside in connection with listening to the evidence in 7 this case and start us all off on an equal basis, Mr. Miller? 8 JUROR NO. 172: (Nods head affirmatively). 9 MR. SMITH: You think you can do that? 10 JUROR NO. 172: Yeah. I believe so. 11 MR. SMITH: That's all I have, Your Honor. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher? 13 MR. STOPHER: Mr. Miller, my name is Ed Stopher, 14 and I just want to ask you one follow-up question. I hope it 15 doesn't embarrass you. It's not asked for that reason and I 16 think you'll understand the basis for asking the question. 17 JUROR NO. 172: Sure. 18 MR. STOPHER: You indicated here, sir, on 19 Question No. 12 when it asked if anybody in your family or 20 even yourself had had a problem with depression at any time in 21 the past, and I could not determine from your answer who the 22 individual is. Is it you? 23 JUROR NO. 172: It was answered in a later 24 question. It was my sister. 25 MR. STOPHER: It's your sister. I see it now. 131 1 I understand, sir. And apparently that was in the fall of 2 1989? 3 JUROR NO. 172: (Nods head affirmatively). 4 MR. STOPHER: And she was not treated with 5 drugs, I take it? 6 JUROR NO. 172: As far as I know there was no 7 prescription involved with that, it was just counseling. 8 MR. STOPHER: Did she decline to take drugs for 9 depression or was it just not -- 10 JUROR NO. 172: Again, I don't know that. 11 MR. STOPHER: You or your sister, as far as you 12 know, don't have any philosophy against taking prescription 13 medications if they're prescribed and justified and that sort 14 of thing? 15 JUROR NO. 172: No. No. 16 MR. STOPHER: Okay, sir. 17 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Miller, I'm going to excuse 18 you till 9:00 tomorrow morning, and we're talking about being 19 in the jury pool room over where you were just a few minutes 20 ago. I caution you not to talk about this case with anybody 21 and not to let anybody talk to you about this case. Do not 22 discuss it with anybody else, family, friends, and don't get 23 any information from the newspaper or the TV. With that 24 admonition, you can go home and we'll see you at 9:00 tomorrow 25 morning. 132 1 JUROR NO. 172: Okay. 2 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you. 3 Hello. You're Mr. Morris? 4 JUROR NO. 85: Yes, sir. 5 JUDGE POTTER: Have a seat, sir. I want to 6 remind you you're still under oath. These gentlemen have some 7 questions. 8 Mr. Stopher? 9 MR. STOPHER: Mr. Morris, my name is Ed Stopher. 10 JUROR NO. 85: Hello, Mr. Stopher. 11 MR. STOPHER: I wanted to ask you a couple of 12 questions about the questionnaire that you were kind enough to 13 fill out. It was asked whether or not you have an opinion as 14 to whether or not Prozac was causily related to Joseph 15 Wesbecker's shootings at Standard Gravure and you wrote down, 16 as I read this, sir, "I have heard parts of the story from 17 both sides. I am not familiar with Prozac nor am I qualified 18 to form such an opinion." What we're interested in knowing, 19 or what I'm at least interested in knowing, is how did you 20 hear parts of the story from both sides? Would you tell us 21 something about the history of that? 22 JUROR NO. 85: Just when the incident first 23 occurred, certain newsclips. Especially when it first 24 occurred there was a lot more coverage than it has been 25 recently. And I haven't heard anything lately, but just from 133 1 the past TV and newspaper. 2 MR. STOPHER: So what you know about the 3 incident was on the public media? 4 JUROR NO. 85: Right. Right. 5 MR. STOPHER: You haven't read any books or any 6 articles or other things on Prozac or on this particular 7 incident involving Joseph Wesbecker? 8 JUROR NO. 85: No, sir. If the University 9 doesn't make me read it, I usually don't read it. 10 MR. STOPHER: You're a student? 11 JUROR NO. 85: I was. I graduated in December, 12 so I don't read anything now. 13 MR. STOPHER: What is a BSBA in marketing? 14 JUROR NO. 85: Bachelor of Science in Business 15 Administration. 16 MR. STOPHER: Okay. I thought you got two 17 degrees at the same time. 18 JUROR NO. 85: Oh, no. 19 MR. STOPHER: All right, sir. In connection 20 with the questionnaire, you made one other answer here; you 21 made the statement "yes" in response to Question No. 9, which 22 was: Do you think that a prescription drug for treating 23 depression should be found 100-percent safe. Can you tell me 24 what you meant by that, sir? 25 JUROR NO. 85: Well, I just think that before a 134 1 drug of any sort is put out on the market, that should be 2 considered 100-percent safe, whether it's to treat depression, 3 insomnia, anything. 4 MR. STOPHER: What about side effects, sir? 5 JUROR NO. 85: I guess if certain side effects 6 are characteristic of the drug, if the good still outweighs 7 the bad and the side effects aren't too severe, then I think 8 that it's probably still worth it. 9 MR. STOPHER: In connection with your present 10 job, sir, you're a credit analyst, did I read this correctly? 11 It's kind of small print. I'm reading the wrong line. I 12 apologize, sir. You're at UPS? 13 JUROR NO. 85: Yes. Yes. 14 MR. STOPHER: What do you do at UPS? 15 JUROR NO. 85: I work in the hub at night. I 16 load feeders, 28-foot tractor-trailers more or less. 17 MR. STOPHER: Okay. Is this full time or part 18 time? 19 JUROR NO. 85: It's considered a part-time job, 20 but I can usually work 35, 40 hours a week, if I like. 21 MR. STOPHER: Are you going to continue working 22 through this trial? 23 JUROR NO. 85: No. I spoke to my employer last 24 night. As long as I'm here, I'm here. 25 MR. STOPHER: You get paid for being here? 135 1 JUROR NO. 85: Yeah. 2 MR. STOPHER: I guess you won't be upset if this 3 trial lasts two or three months? 4 JUROR NO. 85: No. 5 MR. STOPHER: All right, sir. And you've been 6 in that position for about five years, huh? 7 JUROR NO. 85: Not just that position, moving 8 around the hub, various jobs. 9 MR. STOPHER: The question on the form for the 10 jury panel was whether or not you've ever made a claim for 11 personal injury or a member of your family has, and you 12 answered yes. Would you tell me about that. 13 JUROR NO. 85: I don't know a lot of the 14 details. My little brother was in a car accident several 15 years ago and nearly killed him, and I think they settled with 16 the gentleman's insurance company that caused the accident. 17 And I think he got a certain amount of money out of it, not 18 much, but they paid for medical expenses, so... 19 MR. STOPHER: When you say he was nearly killed, 20 sir, does he have a permanent problem now? 21 JUROR NO. 85: No. It just cracked his head 22 open from his eye to his crown. 23 MR. STOPHER: He doesn't have brain injury and 24 he's not disabled? 25 JUROR NO. 85: No. Well, not that we know of. 136 1 MR. STOPHER: Like all little brothers? 2 JUROR NO. 85: Exactly. 3 MR. STOPHER: Okay, sir. I think those are all 4 the questions I have. 5 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith? 6 MR. SMITH: Mr. Morris, you say in answer to the 7 sixth question, I believe, that between the physicians 8 prescribing the products and the warnings on the products 9 themselves, that an adequate job is being done by the 10 pharmaceutical industry in advising of the risk inherent in a 11 product; correct? 12 JUROR NO. 85: Yes, sir. 13 MR. SMITH: Do you have -- have you received 14 medicine with warnings about risk of medicine on the medicine? 15 JUROR NO. 85: Uh-huh. 16 MR. SMITH: In what form? 17 JUROR NO. 85: I don't recall, maybe for like 18 when I would have shoulder injuries or back injuries or 19 whatnot there would be warnings, you know, telling don't drink 20 milk or eat before, stuff like that. Nothing... 21 MR. SMITH: You're talking about something 22 actually printed on the label? 23 JUROR NO. 85: The label would be stuck on 24 there. 25 MR. SMITH: One of those: Don't use this with 137 1 alcohol. Don't drive. May make you dizzy. 2 JUROR NO. 85: Right. 3 MR. SMITH: Is it your opinion that those labels 4 themselves come from the pharmaceutical manufacturer or 5 something that's stuck on by the pharmacy? 6 JUROR NO. 85: I think it's probably stuck on by 7 the pharmacist. 8 MR. SMITH: Okay. You say in answer to No. 26, 9 in addition to what Mr. Stopher read, that you said that, 10 "...nor am I qualified to form such an opinion." By that did 11 you mean that you just haven't formed an opinion? You don't 12 mean that you have an infirmity or anything that would prevent 13 you from forming an opinion? 14 JUROR NO. 85: Right. 15 MR. SMITH: You've got a Bachelor's Degree in 16 Business Administration but you're certainly qualified, if 17 that's what you meant? 18 JUROR NO. 85: Right. If that were the case; 19 yes, I could. 20 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Mr. Morris. 21 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Morris, I'm going to excuse 22 you till 9:00 tomorrow morning. If you will be at the jury 23 pool room where you started out today at 9:00 tomorrow 24 morning. I give you the same admonition I have given you 25 before. Don't let anybody talk to you about this case. Don't 138 1 discuss it with the other jurors. Don't get any information 2 from the TV or the newspaper. See you tomorrow morning, sir. 3 JUROR NO. 85: Okay. Thank you. 4 JUDGE POTTER: You're Ms. Oddo; is that right? 5 JUROR NO. 87: Yes, sir. 6 JUDGE POTTER: Would you have a seat. I remind 7 you you're still under oath. These attorneys might have a few 8 questions. 9 Mr. Smith? 10 MR. SMITH: Ms. Oddo, you're a programmer for 11 C.P.M.C.? 12 JUROR NO. 87: Yes. 13 MR. SMITH: What is that? I'm not from this 14 area. 15 JUROR NO. 87: It's a pay phone company. 16 MR. SMITH: And how long have you been doing 17 that? 18 JUROR NO. 87: Two years. 19 MR. SMITH: I notice you have an advanced degree 20 in computer science from Boston University? 21 JUROR NO. 87: Business. In my work, my degree 22 went towards finance and my work went towards computers. 23 MR. SMITH: All right. So you're not going to 24 give computer data bases any special attention versus any 25 other evidence in this case? 139 1 JUROR NO. 87: No. Garbage in, garbage out. 2 MR. SMITH: Garbage in, garbage out? 3 JUROR NO. 87: (Nods head affirmatively). 4 MR. SMITH: Are you going to apply that to the 5 attorneys here, too? 6 JUROR NO. 87: I mean, data is just entered by 7 human beings, so... 8 MR. SMITH: Let me just look for one other point 9 here. And I don't mean to embarrass you by this. I notice 10 that your brother was in a drug rehab unit in 1985 and 1987. 11 Did he receive any medications in connection with that 12 treatment of which you're aware? 13 JUROR NO. 87: No. No. Just the opposite. 14 MR. SMITH: It was strict one-to-one counseling; 15 is that right? 16 JUROR NO. 87: No. He was in and out of various 17 different hospitals and programs around the country. 18 MR. SMITH: That's what I mean. But in these 19 hospitals and programs did he receive medication for his 20 condition? 21 JUROR NO. 87: No. No. No. Not medication at 22 all, no. It was primarily, like, mental. 23 MR. SMITH: All right. Counseling? 24 JUROR NO. 87: Counseling. 25 MR. SMITH: You say your mother had had some 140 1 psychiatric counseling during her divorce in 1987. 2 JUROR NO. 87: That's correct. 3 MR. SMITH: Do you know if she received any 4 medications with that treatment? 5 JUROR NO. 87: She did not. 6 MR. SMITH: Do you have any particular opinion, 7 Ms. Oddo, concerning this case? 8 JUROR NO. 87: No. I'm not really very familiar 9 with what all's going on. 10 MR. SMITH: You were in school at the time? 11 JUROR NO. 87: I didn't live in this state. I 12 moved here four years ago. I'm from New York, so I'm sort 13 of... 14 MR. SMITH: New York City? 15 JUROR NO. 87: Born in Brooklyn. 16 MR. SMITH: Thank you, ma'am. 17 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher? 18 MR. STOPHER: Ms. Oddo, I notice that your 19 husband is a printer? 20 JUROR NO. 87: Correct. 21 MR. STOPHER: At Quick Print on Shelbyville 22 Road. Is that an actual printing company or is it more like a 23 photocopy outfit? 24 JUROR NO. 87: He's a pressman. 25 MR. STOPHER: He's a pressman? 141 1 JUROR NO. 87: Yeah. 2 MR. STOPHER: Do they have offset printing 3 presses? 4 JUROR NO. 87: Correct. 5 MR. STOPHER: Okay. And is he a pressman? 6 JUROR NO. 87: That's correct. 7 MR. STOPHER: Is he a member of a union? 8 JUROR NO. 87: No. 9 MR. STOPHER: It's a nonunion shop? 10 JUROR NO. 87: It's a franchise. 11 MR. STOPHER: Franchise, okay. About how many 12 people work there? Do you have any idea? 13 JUROR NO. 87: Four or five, small shop. 14 MR. STOPHER: So what he's working on is a very 15 small offset printing press? 16 JUROR NO. 87: (Nods head affirmatively). 17 MR. STOPHER: Okay. Has he been a printer 18 before he worked at Quick Print? 19 JUROR NO. 87: Many years. 20 MR. STOPHER: How long has he been in the 21 printing business? 22 JUROR NO. 87: Since high school. 23 MR. STOPHER: And that would be, what, 15 years 24 or so? 25 JUROR NO. 87: He's 27, so, 12, 13 years. 142 1 MR. STOPHER: Has he worked in big printing 2 factories? 3 JUROR NO. 87: Uh-huh. 4 MR. STOPHER: Any in this area? 5 JUROR NO. 87: Minit-Print It. It's not a 6 factory, but it's a pretty big shop. 7 MR. STOPHER: Yes, it is. Has he ever been a 8 member of a press man's union or a graphic communication -- 9 JUROR NO. 87: Not that I know of. Not that I 10 know of. 11 MR. STOPHER: Has he expressed any opinions to 12 you about the work conditions in print shops? 13 JUROR NO. 87: He's had some personal problems 14 with his own health because of ventilation, he thinks, but, 15 no. 16 MR. STOPHER: The solvents and that sort of 17 thing? 18 JUROR NO. 87: He's not concerned with chemicals 19 so much. He's pretty familiar with them and has been working 20 around them for many years. 21 MR. STOPHER: Has he mentioned anything about 22 the stress to you? 23 JUROR NO. 87: No. 24 MR. STOPHER: All right. Ms. Oddo, in 25 connection with the questionnaire, I notice that you wrote 143 1 down and I think I'm right about this; sometimes I... You 2 said that you may have read something in the newspaper about 3 Prozac, but you just don't remember? 4 JUROR NO. 87: Correct. 5 MR. STOPHER: Nothing's come to mind to you 6 since you filled this out that you recall having read 7 anything? 8 JUROR NO. 87: You know, I read the paper so if 9 I come across an article, but not really recently. I mean, 10 we're talking back when it first came out and all. 11 MR. STOPHER: Uh-huh. Okay. All right. Do you 12 know of any reason why you shouldn't be selected for the jury 13 to give both sides a fair hearing and a fair verdict? 14 JUROR NO. 87: I have no personal preference 15 either way. You know, like I said, I'm not very familiar with 16 the case, so I can't give one side any preference over 17 another, other than I really can't afford the time away from 18 work. 19 MR. STOPHER: You're working at? 20 JUROR NO. 87: I'm their only programmer so I've 21 been going in -- after I leave here I go there. 22 MR. STOPHER: Were you not here yesterday? 23 JUROR NO. 87: I was here yesterday but no one 24 had spoken with me yesterday at all. 25 MR. STOPHER: Okay. All right. Okay. All 144 1 right. Thank you, Ms. Oddo. 2 JUDGE POTTER: Let me ask you one thing, Ms. 3 Oddo. How many hours -- I take it you're kind of patching up 4 what you do at work. How many hours does that take you each 5 night? 6 JUROR NO. 87: It depends. Tonight I'll be 7 there for a couple of hours. I've got billing records to 8 process and that will be a couple of hours, but it just 9 depends on how crazy it is at the office. 10 JUDGE POTTER: What I'm interested in is to keep 11 your business going you'd be going down there two hours a 12 night or something like that? 13 JUROR NO. 87: Probably. 14 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Ma'am, I'm going to excuse 15 you. You can leave and come back at 9:00 tomorrow morning and 16 be in the jury pool room over there. I'm going to give you 17 the same admonition I've given you before. Don't let anybody 18 talk to you about this case or you talk to anybody else. 19 We're talking about other jurors, your husband, whatever. And 20 do not get information from the press or the TV. Okay? 21 JUROR NO. 87: Yes, sir. 22 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you, ma'am. 23 You're Mr. Pfersching? 24 JUROR NO. 97: That's right. 25 JUDGE POTTER: These gentlemen have some 145 1 questions for you. Mr. Stopher? 2 MR. STOPHER: Mr. Pfersching, my name is Ed 3 Stopher, sir. 4 JUROR NO. 97: Okay. 5 MR. STOPHER: Mr. Pfersching, I wanted to ask 6 you about a couple of the answers that you gave on the 7 questionnaire. 8 JUROR NO. 97: Yeah. 9 MR. STOPHER: You were asked if you have an 10 opinion as to whether or not Prozac was a substantial factor 11 in causing or contributing to cause Mr. Wesbecker's actions in 12 connection with the shooting, and you wrote yes? 13 JUROR NO. 97: Yes. 14 MR. STOPHER: Is that still accurate? 15 JUROR NO. 97: Yeah. 16 MR. STOPHER: What is your opinion, sir? 17 JUROR NO. 97: That's what I said. I read in 18 papers and different people saying stuff like that. 19 MR. STOPHER: Saying what, sir? 20 JUROR NO. 97: It was affecting him in different 21 ways. 22 MR. STOPHER: In other words, it's your opinion 23 that Prozac caused or contributed to cause him to do this? 24 JUROR NO. 97: Yeah. 25 MR. STOPHER: And you've gotten that opinion 146 1 from what you've read? 2 JUROR NO. 97: Read. 3 MR. STOPHER: And have you gotten any 4 information on Prozac or on Mr. Wesbecker from any sources 5 other than the newspaper? 6 JUROR NO. 97: No. No. 7 MR. STOPHER: Is that an opinion that you've 8 held for a long time, sir? 9 JUROR NO. 97: Ever since he shot somebody. 10 MR. STOPHER: And it's an opinion that you still 11 hold today? 12 JUROR NO. 97: Yeah. 13 MR. STOPHER: Is it an opinion that you're going 14 to change? 15 JUROR NO. 97: No, I don't think so. 16 MR. STOPHER: That's going to be your opinion at 17 the end of the trial, as well as at the beginning of the 18 trial? 19 JUROR NO. 97: Yeah. Hunh-uh. 20 MR. STOPHER: Is that a yes? 21 JUROR NO. 97: Yes. 22 MR. STOPHER: Okay, sir. Mr. Pfersching, on 23 that form -- I think you've answered the questions that I had, 24 sir. I appreciate your candor. Is that it? 25 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith? 147 1 MR. SMITH: Mr. Pfersching, we all have opinions 2 concerning a variety of things. We suspect the Judge is going 3 to instruct you that your verdict in this case is to be based 4 not on your personal opinion that you held before but based on 5 your opinion of the evidence that's presented at trial and 6 render your opinion solely -- your verdict solely on the 7 evidence introduced at trial. Can you do that in this case? 8 JUROR NO. 97: I don't know. I wouldn't say for 9 sure. I'd have to listen to the trial and all that. 10 MR. SMITH: That's the question. If you 11 listened -- could you listen to the trial and base your 12 verdict based on the evidence at trial as opposed to your 13 preconceived ideas that we all have one way or the other? 14 JUROR NO. 97: Yeah. I think so. 15 MR. SMITH: All right. 16 MR. SMITH: You'd follow the evidence in this 17 case, not what you read before? 18 JUROR NO. 97: Yeah. Yeah. 19 MR. SMITH: That's all I have. Thank you. 20 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Mr. Pfersching, let me ask 21 you one question. You indicated when you were talking to Mr. 22 Stopher that your mind probably wouldn't change during the 23 trial. Why did you say that to him and then -- and I'm not 24 trying to cross you up, sir; I'm just trying to get where you 25 stand. And then you said to him, "Well, I'd listen to the 148 1 evidence." 2 JUROR NO. 97: Yeah. I'd have to listen to the 3 trial, I guess, but pretty well what I told him. 4 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. And let the record show he 5 pointed to Mr. Stopher. 6 Sir, I'm going to excuse you till 9:00 tomorrow 7 morning. Would you come back to the jury pool area across the 8 street where you were this morning. I give you the same 9 admonition. Don't talk to anybody about this case, don't 10 allow anybody to talk to you and don't get any information 11 from the newspaper or the news media. See you tomorrow 12 morning at 9:00. 13 JUROR NO. 97: Thank you. 14 MR. STOPHER: We make a motion, Judge. 15 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith, is there anything you 16 want to say before I rule on it? 17 MR. SMITH: Well, Judge, it looks like your pen 18 is already positioned. 19 JUDGE POTTER: Well, and I thought that question 20 might give me a clue on which way to go, and it did. I'm 21 going to grant the motion to strike. It may just be he wasn't 22 as articulate as some of those other people, so that when 23 they're on the fence they can clearly state they're on the 24 fence. 25 JUDGE POTTER: You're Ms. Raley; right? 149 1 JUROR NO. 210: Right. 2 JUDGE POTTER: You want to have a seat, ma'am? 3 JUROR NO. 210: Yes, sir. 4 JUDGE POTTER: I remind you you're still under 5 oath. Some of these gentlemen may have a question for you. 6 Mr. Smith? 7 MR. SMITH: Do I understand it, Ms. Raley, that 8 your husband -- 9 JUROR NO. 210: My ex-husband. 10 MR. SMITH: Your ex-husband was a policeman? 11 JUROR NO. 210: Right. City of Louisville. 12 MR. SMITH: Here in Louisville? Do you know 13 whether or not he had anything to do with the investigation? 14 JUROR NO. 210: No. I know he didn't. They 15 retired him back in -- oh, heck, I'm trying to think now. I 16 divorced him in '79, and seems like to me it was five years 17 later they retired him from the police department. So, no, I 18 know he didn't have anything to do with that. 19 MR. SMITH: And you haven't discussed this case 20 with him? 21 JUROR NO. 210: Hunh-uh. I don't even -- we 22 don't speak to each other. 23 MR. SMITH: Okay. In answer to Question 8, "Is 24 it appropriate to prescribe medication for mental illness," 25 you answered, "If a doctor puts you on a medication, then I 150 1 guess that you should trust him." 2 JUROR NO. 210: That I would trust him. 3 MR. SMITH: That you would trust him? 4 JUROR NO. 210: And I'd take it, you know, 5 whatever he put me on. 6 MR. SMITH: Ms. Raley, do you feel like a 7 pharmaceutical manufacturer has an obligation to advise 8 physicians of the risks and hazards in their medications? 9 JUROR NO. 210: Well, I would think so, you 10 know, if there were any, if they knew of any, you know. 11 MR. SMITH: Do you have any preconceived idea 12 concerning how this case should come out, Ms. Raley? 13 JUROR NO. 210: Lordy, no. I didn't even give 14 it a thought. The first day that it happened it made me sick. 15 I didn't want nothing to do with looking at nothing. And I 16 really don't really read about it or even talk about it. 17 MR. SMITH: Would you carefully review the 18 evidence in this case if you were selected as a juror? 19 JUROR NO. 210: Oh, yes. Like some people are 20 fanatics about something that had taken place. No. That kind 21 of made me sick and I didn't want to think about it. 22 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher? 23 MR. STOPHER: Ms. Raley, I want to ask you about 24 one of the most unusual answers I think I've ever read. 25 JUDGE POTTER: I know what it is. 151 1 MR. STOPHER: And I don't mean to be -- I think 2 it's wonderful, it speaks well of you. You answered the 3 question marital status by writing in "fine." Good for you. 4 I'm proud of you. 5 I wanted to ask you just a couple of questions, 6 though, about what you just said. I think everybody in this 7 room and everybody in the whole city of Louisville agrees with 8 your opinion, but during the course of this trial we're going 9 to have to focus on what occurred and there's going to be -- 10 JUROR NO. 210: Yeah. I realize that. 11 MR. STOPHER: Is that going to be a problem for 12 you? I mean, you've carefully avoided it. 13 JUROR NO. 210: Not carefully avoided it. If it 14 was on, I didn't jump up and turn it off and say, "I don't 15 want to listen to it." Whoever was in the house and had it 16 on, I just really didn't sit there and listen. 17 MR. STOPHER: It's not so unpleasant to you that 18 it's going to cause you a problem to sit and listen to it in 19 great detail? 20 JUROR NO. 210: No. It won't make me feel so 21 good but... 22 MR. STOPHER: It doesn't make anybody feel too 23 good. But you don't think you'll have a reaction or a 24 problem -- 25 JUROR NO. 210: No. I really don't. 152 1 MR. STOPHER: That's all I have, Judge. 2 JUDGE POTTER: Ms. Raley, I'm going to excuse 3 you till 9:00 tomorrow morning. If you'll be back in the same 4 jury pool room that you were in today by nine tomorrow 5 morning. Don't let anybody communicate to you about this case 6 and don't you communicate with anybody else. And this time 7 when it comes on the TV, you do jump up and turn it off. 8 JUROR NO. 210: Well, I did last night. I even 9 went outside. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. You're Mr. Rapp; is that 11 right? 12 JUROR NO. 152: Yes, sir. 13 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Rapp, I remind you you're 14 still under oath. 15 Mr. Stopher? 16 MR. STOPHER: Mr. Rapp, my name is Ed Stopher. 17 I wanted to ask you some questions about the questionnaire 18 that you filled out. You indicated, sir, that your wife has 19 had a problem with depression? 20 JUROR NO. 152: Yes, sir. 21 MR. STOPHER: And I wanted to ask you some 22 things about that. Again, it's not any of our intention to 23 pry into your affairs that are none of our business, but, 24 unfortunately in the interest of picking a fair jury, it has 25 become our business. Do you understand that? 153 1 JUROR NO. 152: That's fine. 2 MR. STOPHER: Okay. According to the 3 questionnaire, your family doctor prescribed a medication and 4 you indicated that you didn't know the name. Do you know it 5 now, sir? 6 JUROR NO. 152: No. I know it's not Prozac, but 7 I couldn't tell you. My wife's told me, but I'm terrible with 8 medicine. She's allergic to all kinds of medicines and, I 9 mean, she's got a list she carries and she can name every one 10 of them, but I just have problems with memory. 11 MR. STOPHER: Okay. When you say you have 12 problems with memory, is that just a function of getting older 13 like all the rest of us? 14 JUROR NO. 152: Yeah. Basically, yeah. I mean, 15 she can tell me one thing and the next day I can't remember 16 the names of medicines and that type thing. 17 MR. STOPHER: She's had some allergic reactions 18 to certain medications? 19 JUROR NO. 152: Yes, sir. 20 MR. STOPHER: Were any of those medications 21 antidepressants? 22 JUROR NO. 152: Well, the last one she was on 23 the doctor told her the side effects were diarrhea and 24 vomiting, that type thing, and she -- she had like a mild 25 reaction. It wasn't the complete diarrhea, but her stomach 154 1 was upset and it caused her to go to the bathroom quite a few 2 times. But the diarrhea really didn't start, so the doctor 3 felt like he could probably keep her on it unless she did have 4 a more major reaction to it. 5 MR. STOPHER: Has she ever had a reaction that 6 was not predicted? 7 JUROR NO. 152: It's been a long time ago, but, 8 yeah, something -- one of the medicines that, like I said, 9 that she is allergic to, at the hospital she had a rash and 10 breaking out, hives and this type of thing. I mean, I 11 couldn't even tell you what that was. It's been -- because I 12 was in the Army National Guard and I was on reserve duty when 13 it happened, and I think she was on something for nerves then. 14 But that was what the reaction was from, the medicine that was 15 prescribed for that. 16 MR. STOPHER: Has she ever been on a medication, 17 sir, that you felt made her become violent or threatening or 18 self destructive to herself, suicidal? 19 JUROR NO. 152: No, not suicidal, but she did go 20 through a period -- this has probably been 20 years ago -- 21 where she had amnesia for a week. I mean, she just totally 22 lost a week of her life, really, because she don't remember 23 nothing. And within that time period she did get not really 24 mad. She threw a stuffed animal or something at me and 25 just... But she -- and she went storming out of the house and 155 1 took off driving and, like she says, she don't remember any of 2 this till about -- I guess it was probably three or four years 3 later she remembered seeing a billboard. We was going up 65 4 in Indiana. She seen a billboard, motel room, she remembers 5 seeing that billboard and that brought back some memories, and 6 so she started remembering bits and pieces. And she had to 7 see a psychiatrist after -- well, for me to have her admitted 8 to the hospital she had to agree to see a psychiatrist, and I 9 think that was for maybe a month that she seen a psychiatrist. 10 MR. STOPHER: Do you believe that the amnesia 11 was caused by a medication that she was taking? 12 JUROR NO. 152: No. It was more of a -- I think 13 a depression-type stage. 14 MR. STOPHER: More of the underlying problem 15 than a -- 16 JUROR NO. 152: Yeah. Yeah. 17 MR. STOPHER: Has she ever had, sir, a severe 18 reaction that made her either suicidal or violent or 19 threatening or homicidal from medication? 20 JUROR NO. 152: Not to my knowledge, at least 21 not suicidal. 22 MR. STOPHER: Would your experience with her 23 make you think that medications can cause homicidal activity 24 or homicidal ideas? 25 JUROR NO. 152: I'd have to say probably yes. 156 1 It's a possibility there, yes. 2 MR. STOPHER: Has your experience with her made 3 you think that certain medications may cause people to act out 4 in a violent manner? 5 JUROR NO. 152: Possibly, yes. 6 MR. STOPHER: Does that opinion apply to Prozac 7 that it's a possibility that that could happen? 8 JUROR NO. 152: Well, that I wouldn't have any 9 way of knowing. I couldn't say one way or the other. 10 Because, like I say, she had told me before this even, the 11 trial even come up, that she had never taken Prozac but she 12 knew a couple of people that had, and she didn't know if she 13 ever wanted to take it because of -- 14 MR. STOPHER: That was going to be my next 15 question. Would she decline to take it because of this 16 Wesbecker case? 17 JUROR NO. 152: I think she would because she 18 knew a person that was on Prozac and didn't get violent but it 19 affected her -- well, broke the marriage up, and she thinks 20 that was the cause of it. 21 MR. STOPHER: Do you agree with her? 22 JUROR NO. 152: Well, I didn't know the lady 23 that well. I couldn't say. 24 MR. STOPHER: Do you believe that her 25 experiences are going to influence the way you approach the 157 1 issues in this case? 2 JUROR NO. 152: It may be there. I don't know. 3 I couldn't say one way or the other. There may be something 4 that I might hear and it might sneak in. I'm not really -- 5 it's hard to say really if it would or not, but that is -- 6 there's that possibility. I'm not going to say 100-percent 7 sure that something I hear won't make me think of something 8 that she has done. 9 MR. STOPHER: Do you have an opinion now as to 10 why Joseph Wesbecker did what he did? 11 JUROR NO. 152: No, sir. I don't think so. 12 MR. STOPHER: If you get into this case and 13 there is a debate as to whether or not Prozac caused him to do 14 this, there are two sides to the issue, are you going to be 15 inclined to believe that it did cause it based on the 16 experiences that your wife has had and the experiences that 17 she's told you that other people had? 18 JUROR NO. 152: It's possible. 19 MR. STOPHER: In other words, it may influence 20 your verdict? 21 JUROR NO. 152: I'm afraid so; yes, I'm thinking 22 it could. It's hard to say 100 percent which way. Like I 23 say, when I hear some testimony it's hard to say what memories 24 it's going to bring back or what something I may have forgot 25 may come back then. It's just hard to say, you know, before I 158 1 hear the testimony. 2 MR. STOPHER: Well, what I'm really trying to 3 find out is, sir, that if there's a debate and let's say the 4 debate is tied, it's 50-50, would your experiences with your 5 wife or the experiences that she's told you about influence 6 you to decide one way or the other? 7 JUROR NO. 152: Very possibly. 8 MR. STOPHER: Okay, sir. 9 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith? 10 MR. SMITH: Mr. Rapp, as I understand it, you 11 don't have any real opinion personally concerning the safety 12 or efficacy of Prozac at this time, do you? 13 JUROR NO. 152: No, sir. 14 MR. SMITH: And you don't have any opinion 15 either way at this time concerning whether or not Prozac had 16 any relationship to the shooting on September 14th, 1989, do 17 you? 18 JUROR NO. 152: No, sir. 19 MR. SMITH: And will you follow the Court's 20 instructions and base your verdict in this case on the 21 evidence presented to you at trial if you're selected as a 22 juror? 23 JUROR NO. 152: Yes, sir. 24 MR. SMITH: That's all I have, Your Honor. 25 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much, sir. I'm 159 1 going to excuse you till 9:00 tomorrow morning. If you'll be 2 over in the jury pool, where you started out today, at 9:00. 3 I'll give you the same admonition I've given you before. Do 4 not talk to anybody about this case. Do not let anybody 5 communicate with you. Don't get any information off the 6 newspaper or the television and don't talk to the other 7 jurors. Thank you very much. 8 MR. STOPHER: We make the motion again, Judge. 9 We seem to be playing a back and forth here trying to 10 rehabilitate, but the fact of the matter is that his 11 experience is right on point. He does have an opinion. He 12 says he's going to carry that opinion with him to the end, and 13 that if it's tied, that that opinion is going to enter into 14 his verdict and I think it's justifiable, given his life 15 experience. 16 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith? 17 MR. SMITH: He said he doesn't even have an 18 opinion in this case. I don't know how he can say that his 19 life experience is going to affect his judgment. He said it 20 wouldn't affect his judgment in this case because he has no 21 opinion at this time. 22 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. I'm going to deny the 23 motion to excuse Mr. Rapp for cause. You know, his 24 experiences, a friend of his wife lost a divorce -- his wife 25 believes one of her friends got a divorce because she's on 160 1 Prozac. His wife when she was taking another medication threw 2 something at him. I don't think it's a strong enough 3 experience to where I think it's logical that he would use 4 that in the jury room to influence him in any way. 5 Hi. You're Mary Reed? 6 JUROR NO. 182: Yes, I am. 7 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. I want to remind you that 8 you're still under oath, ma'am. These gentlemen may have some 9 questions for you. 10 Mr. Stopher? 11 MR. STOPHER: Ms. Reed, my name is Ed Stopher -- 12 JUDGE POTTER: I got it backwards. It should be 13 Mr. Smith. 14 MR. STOPHER: It's not my turn. 15 JUDGE POTTER: They're alternating on who goes 16 first and I'm not a good scorekeeper. 17 MR. SMITH: Hi, Ms. Reed. 18 JUROR NO. 182: Hello. 19 MR. SMITH: Your jury questionnaire indicated 20 you had a reaction to Benadryl; is that right? 21 JUROR NO. 182: Yes, I did. 22 MR. SMITH: What type of reaction is that? 23 JUROR NO. 182: I'm allergic to different 24 things, and it broke me out from the top of my mouth to the 25 bottom of my feet. 161 1 MR. SMITH: Did that clear up? 2 JUROR NO. 182: No. I had to go back to the 3 doctor and he gave me something else to clear it up. I don't 4 know what he gave me. 5 MR. SMITH: Do you know, Ms. Reed, that that 6 would affect your judgment in this case? 7 JUROR NO. 182: I don't know of anything because 8 I don't know that much about it. 9 MR. SMITH: You don't have any preconceived 10 ideas as to how this case should come out? 11 JUROR NO. 182: No, not really. 12 MR. SMITH: You say "not really"? 13 JUROR NO. 182: Well, I just want to be fair. 14 MR. SMITH: That's all we can ask. That's all I 15 have, Ms. Reed. 16 MR. STOPHER: Ms. Reed, now I'll introduce 17 myself. I'm Ed Stopher. You answered, Question No. 8 and 18 Question No. 8 was -- let me just read it to you; if you can 19 remember it you're a genius. The question was: "Is it 20 appropriate to prescribe medication for mental illness," and 21 your answer was inappropriate. Do you think that prescription 22 medications should not be used in the treatment of mental 23 illness? 24 JUROR NO. 182: Well, I don't know that much 25 about drugs, but my opinion is if it's mental, you know, what 162 1 can -- I don't know what you could give somebody for mental 2 illness; that's why I put that. 3 MR. STOPHER: All right. In other words, you 4 have an opinion that medications or drugs are not useful in 5 treating something that's mental? 6 JUROR NO. 182: As far as I know. I don't know 7 that much about drugs. 8 MR. STOPHER: Okay. All right. Do you think it 9 is wrong for doctors to prescribe drugs to try to deal with 10 mental problems? 11 JUROR NO. 182: As far as I know, I don't know 12 of anything that a doctor would prescribe, so I would have to 13 say I feel like it's wrong. 14 MR. STOPHER: All right. In this case a number 15 of doctors prescribed a number of different drugs for Mr. 16 Wesbecker. Is it your position that that's wrong? 17 JUROR NO. 182: For his mental condition; is 18 that what you mean? 19 MR. STOPHER: Yes, ma'am. Uh-huh. 20 JUROR NO. 182: Well, I don't know what doctors 21 know about mental, so I don't know how to answer that. You 22 know, as far as I'm concerned, I think mental is just 23 something -- I don't know. So that's the way I'd have to 24 answer that. 25 MR. STOPHER: Okay. All right. Do you believe 163 1 that drugs prescribed for mental illness can make someone want 2 to kill somebody else? 3 JUROR NO. 182: Again, I have to say I don't 4 know. 5 MR. STOPHER: You don't know. Do you think that 6 people that do kill, that their actions are caused by 7 something outside of their control? 8 MR. SMITH: We'd object to that question as 9 being general and vague. 10 JUDGE POTTER: I'll let her go ahead and answer 11 this. 12 JUROR NO. 182: Do I think that when someone 13 kills somebody it's outside of their control; is that what you 14 said? 15 MR. STOPHER: Yes, ma'am; that they're not 16 responsible for doing that? 17 JUROR NO. 182: No. I don't feel that. I feel 18 they're responsible for doing it. 19 MR. STOPHER: And do you feel that people who do 20 have mental illness are also responsible when they kill? 21 JUROR NO. 182: They're really mentally -- if 22 you don't know what you're doing, you know, you might do 23 things that you wouldn't do if you was not mentally ill. Does 24 that answer your question? 25 MR. STOPHER: Uh-huh. I think so. In other 164 1 words, the difference to you is that if somebody doesn't know 2 what they're doing because they're mentally ill, that you 3 think they're not responsible for the murders that they 4 commit? 5 JUROR NO. 182: I'd have to waiver that a little 6 bit. I think that if you're mentally ill, don't know what 7 you're doing, you'd do things that you wouldn't do if you had 8 your right mind. Does that answer it? 9 MR. STOPHER: I think I understand what you're 10 saying. Ms. Reed, in connection with this case, Mr. Wesbecker 11 killed a number of people and was and had been mentally ill. 12 Do you have an opinion that somehow he's not responsible 13 because he was mentally ill? 14 JUROR NO. 182: I don't know how to answer that. 15 MR. STOPHER: You're kind of on the fence? 16 JUROR NO. 182: Little bit. 17 MR. SMITH: Object. That's not what she said. 18 JUDGE POTTER: That was a follow-up question. 19 Anything else, Mr. Stopher? 20 MR. STOPHER: Ms. Reed, in connection with this 21 case, if Mr. Wesbecker was mentally ill and he took Prozac and 22 then he killed, do you have an opinion that Prozac made him do 23 it? 24 JUROR NO. 182: I don't have an opinion because 25 I don't know anything about Prozac. 165 1 MR. STOPHER: Okay. All right. You can't rule 2 it out and you can't rule it in? 3 JUROR NO. 182: Right. 4 MR. STOPHER: Okay. Thank you, Ms. Reed. I 5 appreciate it. 6 JUDGE POTTER: Ms. Reed, I'm going to excuse you 7 till 9:00 tomorrow morning. You can leave here and go home, 8 but would you be back in that assembly area at 9:00 tomorrow 9 morning. And I want to remind you again that you're not to 10 talk to anybody about the case, let anybody talk to you about 11 the case or get any information from the newspaper or the TV 12 about it. I'll see you tomorrow morning. Thank you. 13 JUROR NO. 182: Thank you. 14 JUDGE POTTER: You're Mr. Richy? 15 JUROR NO. 167: Yes, sir. 16 JUDGE POTTER: How are you, Mr. Richy? 17 JUROR NO. 167: I'm doing fine, sir. 18 JUDGE POTTER: I'll remind you you're still 19 under oath. I have got it right, Mr. Stopher? 20 JUROR NO. 167: That's R-I-C-H-Y. 21 JUDGE POTTER: And this is Mr. Stopher. He'll 22 ask you a few questions. 23 JUROR NO. 167: All right, sir. 24 MR. STOPHER: Mr. Richy, in connection with the 25 questionnaire that you filled out, sir, am I correct in 166 1 understanding that you don't have any opinion at all as to why 2 Mr. Wesbecker went into Standard Gravure on September 14 and 3 committed these acts? 4 JUROR NO. 167: Well, you know, I don't read all 5 the stuff that comes out in the paper, so I really don't have 6 an opinion really why or anything like that and wouldn't say 7 whether the medicine he was taking caused it or not. I don't 8 know. 9 MR. STOPHER: Do you have any information about 10 the medicine that he was taking? 11 JUROR NO. 167: No, sir; I don't. No. I don't 12 know anything about it. 13 MR. STOPHER: You haven't read anything about it 14 or don't have any friends who've been involved with it at all? 15 JUROR NO. 167: No, sir. No, sir. 16 MR. STOPHER: In connection with your 17 employment, sir, you're the administrator of a church? 18 JUROR NO. 167: St. Ignatius Church. Yes. 19 MR. STOPHER: And you're administrator of the 20 church, not just of the school? 21 JUROR NO. 167: The way it is, when I went on 22 board I was administrator of the parish, we had a school at 23 that time and I was administrator. And since then the three 24 schools in our area has merged and made one school, which is 25 the Thomas Merton Academy. 167 1 MR. STOPHER: Oh, yeah. Okay. 2 JUROR NO. 167: So we have the day care at our 3 grounds; Resurrection has the other grades from kindergarten 4 to the fourth grade, and Guardian Angels has the fifth through 5 the eighth. So when we lost our custodian there at the school 6 and I was the only one left, as administrator there, then I 7 kind of fell into the duties of doing what has to be done over 8 at the school plus my duties over at the rectory. 9 MR. STOPHER: Okay. Mr. Richy, have you ever 10 taken any prescription medications? 11 JUROR NO. 167: Yes, sir. Yes. Yes. 12 MR. STOPHER: Have you ever had a bad problem 13 with any of those? 14 JUROR NO. 167: No, sir. Nothing, no. 15 MR. STOPHER: You felt that they were 16 appropriately prescribed? 17 JUROR NO. 167: Everything I've taken has done 18 what my problem was. 19 MR. STOPHER: You've never had any risks or side 20 effects of any kind? 21 JUROR NO. 167: No, sir. No, sir. 22 MR. STOPHER: You understand that prescription 23 medications can have side effects? 24 JUROR NO. 167: Oh, I'm sure. Yes. Yes. 25 MR. STOPHER: That's all I have, sir. 168 1 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith? 2 MR. SMITH: A couple of questions. Your answer 3 to Question 30 was not filled out. It asked whether or not 4 you or any of your family members had any training in 5 psychology, psychiatry or pharmacy. 6 JUROR NO. 167: No. No. No. Well, I guess the 7 way I read it I didn't have to answer it, the way I read it, 8 and that's why I didn't. 9 MR. SMITH: The next question had to do with 10 training in the fields of law enforcement? 11 JUROR NO. 167: No. Nothing on that. There was 12 a couple on there I know I didn't answer it because I think 13 the way I read it, I didn't think I had to answer it because 14 of the way it read. 15 MR. SMITH: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Richy. 16 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Richy, I'm going to excuse 17 you till 9:00 tomorrow morning. Would you be in the jury pool 18 assembly area at 9:00. And I again remind you of my 19 admonition. Do not permit anybody to speak to or communicate 20 with you on a topic connected with this trial. Don't discuss 21 it with your other jurors and don't get any information from 22 the TV or radio or the newspaper. 23 JUROR NO. 167: I don't usually pick up the news 24 anyway. 25 JUDGE POTTER: All right, sir. Well, we'll see 169 1 you tomorrow morning. 2 Hi. You're Ms. Ryan? 3 JUROR NO. 209: Yes. 4 JUDGE POTTER: Will you have a seat, ma'am. I 5 remind you you're still under oath. These gentlemen may want 6 to ask you some questions. 7 Mr. Smith? 8 MR. SMITH: Hi, Ms. Ryan. 9 JUROR NO. 209: Hello. 10 MR. SMITH: In your answer to Question No. 5 on 11 your questionnaire, you said that it was your opinion that the 12 FDA was doing a good job in protecting consumer health and 13 safety; is that right? 14 JUROR NO. 209: Yes. 15 MR. SMITH: What do you base that on? 16 JUROR NO. 209: I just feel safe in taking the 17 drugs the doctor prescribes to me. That's the way I feel. 18 MR. SMITH: Do you know anything about how the 19 FDA works in approving drugs? 20 JUROR NO. 209: No. I'm just ignorant, but I 21 just feel safe myself in taking the drugs that my doctor 22 prescribes for me. 23 MR. SMITH: In Question No. 6, you say you have 24 faith in the drug your doctor prescribes for you. The 25 question was whether or not pharmaceutical companies were 170 1 doing an adequate or inadequate job in communicating the risk 2 of their products. Is it your feeling that a pharmaceutical 3 manufacturer has an obligation to communicate risk of the 4 products to your doctor? 5 JUROR NO. 209: Yes. Uh-huh. 6 MR. SMITH: I notice that your brother is a 7 victim of mental illness? 8 JUROR NO. 209: Uh-huh. I couldn't spell it. 9 Schizophrenia. 10 MR. SMITH: You could have passed by me. 11 JUROR NO. 209: It was kind of phonetically by 12 the end of the day. 13 MR. SMITH: Has he been hospitalized for a long 14 period of time? 15 JUROR NO. 209: Yes. 16 MR. SMITH: Do you know if he's receiving 17 medication and, if so, what medication? 18 JUROR NO. 209: I believe he's on Haldol now. I 19 was trying to think last night; I was afraid you-all would ask 20 me about that. Haldol. 21 MR. SMITH: Anything about that situation that 22 would affect your judgment in this case? 23 JUROR NO. 209: We weren't raised together, and 24 I see him about three or four times a year. I stay in contact 25 with him and go to see him. 171 1 MR. SMITH: Do you know anything about Prozac? 2 JUROR NO. 209: No. 3 MR. SMITH: Do you know anybody that's taking 4 Prozac? 5 JUROR NO. 209: No, except the ones that said it 6 in the courtroom the other day, but, no, not personally. 7 MR. SMITH: Have you read anything about this 8 incident that has occurred? 9 JUROR NO. 209: Well, yes, off and on through 10 the years. I was here when it happened. 11 MR. SMITH: Have you formed any opinion or 12 judgment -- 13 JUROR NO. 209: No. No. Hunh-uh. 14 MR. SMITH: -- in this case? 15 JUROR NO. 209: Hunh-uh. 16 MR. SMITH: You said you were a victim of a 17 robbery, also? 18 JUROR NO. 209: Well, it was major to me. They 19 took my purse off my arm and took every dollar I had. My 20 husband was with me, and he has cancer and couldn't help me. 21 They took it from me and I couldn't control it. 22 MR. SMITH: Were you injured? 23 JUROR NO. 209: No. 24 MR. SMITH: You weren't pushed or hurt? 25 JUROR NO. 209: I fell down. That's the only 172 1 way he got it. I wouldn't let go of it. 2 MR. SMITH: Was the man that got your purse 3 caught? 4 JUROR NO. 209: No. 5 MR. SMITH: The plaintiffs in this case are 6 victims of a violent crime, as you know. Anything about that 7 that would affect your judgment in this case? 8 JUROR NO. 209: No. Hunh-uh. 9 MR. SMITH: You say your husband has cancer? 10 JUROR NO. 209: He passed away. Uh-huh. 11 MR. SMITH: Okay. Thank you, Ms. Ryan. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher? 13 MR. STOPHER: No questions, Judge. 14 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Ms. Ryan, I'm going to 15 excuse you till tomorrow at 9:00. I know you came in today 16 and you've been here all day and you're only going to get -- 17 we've had you for five minutes, but tomorrow we'll need a 18 little more of your time. So would you report back to that 19 jury pool room where you were this morning at 9:00 tomorrow. 20 I caution you don't let anybody communicate with you or talk 21 about this case; do not discuss it with the other jurors and 22 do not form opinions about it until it is finally submitted 23 for your judgment. 24 JUROR NO. 209: I didn't watch my news last 25 night. 173 1 JUDGE POTTER: Haiti is not going well. 2 JUROR NO. 209: Since Monday morning I'm worried 3 about this. 4 JUDGE POTTER: I tell you, when we get started 5 we'll make arrangements for you-all to get your news. All 6 right. Okay. 7 JUROR NO. 209: Thank you all. 8 JUDGE POTTER: You're Mr. Smith; is that right? 9 JUROR NO. 163: Right. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Sir, I want to remind you you're 11 still under oath. These gentlemen probably have some 12 questions for you. 13 Mr. Stopher? 14 MR. STOPHER: Mr. Smith, you're still a pilot at 15 UPS? 16 JUROR NO. 163: That's right. That's right. 17 MR. STOPHER: All right, sir. In the answers to 18 the questionnaires that you gave us, sir, you mentioned that 19 you've been a witness for a plaintiff in connection with a 20 lawsuit? 21 JUROR NO. 163: Yes. I never showed up in 22 court. It was basically I wrote my -- a witness report for a 23 trial that was going on. We were in a crew van and had an 24 accident and one of the other crew members got hurt, and it 25 was in Philadelphia so just -- his lawyer sent me something 174 1 just to give an eyewitness account of it. 2 MR. STOPHER: So it was regarding an automobile 3 or traffic accident? 4 JUROR NO. 163: Traffic accident; that's right. 5 MR. STOPHER: Okay, sir. All right. Mr. Smith, 6 in addition to being a pilot, you also have studied chemistry? 7 JUROR NO. 163: That's right. 8 MR. STOPHER: And you apparently have a degree 9 with, I assume, a major in chemistry; is that right? 10 JUROR NO. 163: That's right. 11 MR. STOPHER: Have you ever used your chemistry 12 education? 13 JUROR NO. 163: No. I went to pilot training 14 after college and spent 20 years there, so I never did. 15 MR. STOPHER: All right. What I am interested 16 in, sir, as we all are, there's going to be a good deal about 17 chemistry and the effects of chemicals on the human body in 18 this case. Are you going to be able to put aside your own 19 opinions about chemicals and what little bit of training 20 you've had on it and listen to the evidence and decide it 21 based on what you hear in the courtroom as opposed to what you 22 learned a long time ago at UC? 23 JUROR NO. 163: I think I can. I think I forgot 24 more than I ever learned. 25 MR. STOPHER: Mr. Smith, in connection with this 175 1 matter, do you have any opinion about what caused Mr. 2 Wesbecker to do what he did, sir? 3 JUROR NO. 163: Not really, no. I can't say one 4 way or the other what caused it. 5 MR. STOPHER: You've read about it, I'm sure? 6 JUROR NO. 163: I've heard some things about it, 7 yeah, and through the media. 8 MR. STOPHER: You've heard things through the 9 media and not from somebody else? 10 JUROR NO. 163: I've only lived here for four 11 years, so every once in a while if some tragedy happens 12 somewhere else, they say, "Way back when remember what 13 happened down at Standard Gravure," and that's basically what 14 I've heard since I moved here. 15 MR. STOPHER: You weren't here at the time, so 16 you didn't get that immediate rush of publicity? 17 JUROR NO. 163: No. No. I hardly remember 18 hearing about it when it did happen. 19 Q. But you've read or heard about it through the 20 news media since then? 21 JUROR NO. 163: Yes. 22 MR. STOPHER: What about Prozac, sir, have you 23 read or heard things about Prozac? 24 JUROR NO. 163: Not other than what I read when 25 I heard that there was going to be this trial down here and 176 1 saw it in The Courier-Journal, and I guess sometime on 20/20 2 or some show they had something about Prozac. I remember 3 something vaguely talking about it, but I don't remember too 4 much about it. 5 MR. STOPHER: Okay. Have either one of those 6 experiences, reading the newspaper on Sunday or watching 7 television, have they influenced you as to what you think 8 about Prozac? 9 JUROR NO. 163: No. I don't think so. 10 MR. STOPHER: Mr. Smith, in connection with this 11 case, do you know of any reason why you couldn't sit and be 12 fair to both sides? Is there anything about you that you 13 wouldn't pick yourself to be on this jury, that you think it 14 would interfere in some way? 15 JUROR NO. 163: Well, I thought about that a lot 16 the last two days. I kind of discussed with my wife about 17 just being a juror on something like that. It was funny, our 18 crew was sitting over in Minneapolis last Saturday talking 19 about the lady that spilled the McDonald's coffee in her lap 20 and talking about how ridiculous it is in the trials going on, 21 and it's hurting our economy and society, I think, because of 22 all the high-dollar items. You know, it's either you're suing 23 somebody else to ruin them financially or you're trying to 24 hurt some company, which you're really not hurting the 25 company, you're hurting the customer. And that's kind of the 177 1 opinion we all had when we had that discussion. I kind of 2 feel the same way on this issue. 3 MR. STOPHER: In spite of that philosophy, do 4 you think you can decide this case fairly, though, to both 5 parties based on the evidence that you hear and the law as 6 it's given to you by the Judge? 7 JUROR NO. 163: Well, I could try, but I might 8 be swayed a little bit one way than the other because of the 9 way I feel about it. I think there's too much suing going on. 10 MR. STOPHER: In connection with your attitude 11 toward litigation, you wouldn't deny somebody what was true 12 and just and was appropriate under the evidence if it was 13 justified, would you, sir? 14 JUROR NO. 163: If it was appropriate to pay for 15 their medical bills or something like that if they didn't have 16 medical insurance and somebody was at fault. And if somebody 17 hit me in a car I would expect them to pay for my medical 18 bills, and if they can't, I would sue them. But for excessive 19 litigation or something like that, I don't think that's fair. 20 MR. STOPHER: Do you have an opinion that this 21 is excessive litigation? 22 JUROR NO. 163: I don't know. 23 MR. STOPHER: You've got to hear the evidence; 24 right? 25 JUROR NO. 163: I don't know. 178 1 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith? 2 MR. SMITH: I represent the people out there who 3 are bringing this lawsuit. They're suing Eli Lilly, a 4 manufacturer of pharmaceutical products. They didn't get 5 coffee spilled in their lap. Do you think with your opinion 6 concerning litigation, be it right or wrong -- and I agree 7 with you on the McDonald's case, even as a lawyer representing 8 injured people I agree that's not a good situation, but with 9 your opinion, and you certainly have the right to have that, 10 that there's too much litigation in this country and it's 11 costing everybody to pursue this, do you think that that would 12 color your judgment in this case, in all honesty? 13 JUROR NO. 163: You know, I don't know what the 14 people that you're representing have gotten from before, you 15 know, whether -- I know the C-J, it said they went after the 16 estate of the murderer and they went after the psychiatrist. 17 I don't know what they got for judgment. And, you know, I 18 really feel for people like that that have lost loved ones and 19 are permanently injured or something like that but, you know, 20 do you have to go after a whole company or something like that 21 too? You know, because, you know, the President and the 22 Congress right now are trying to cut back on our health care, 23 and now you're talking about a pharmaceutical company that's 24 going to just jack up the price of drugs to pay for this, and 25 I don't know if that's fair, whether society owes those few 179 1 people that were hurt or killed down here, you know, more 2 money. 3 MR. SMITH: In all honesty, you think that would 4 spill over into your verdict? 5 JUROR NO. 163: Yeah, I think it would. I think 6 people need to take care of themselves. 7 MR. SMITH: And you think that you would be 8 influenced by that and be more likely to render a verdict in 9 favor of the drug company, even for all the reasons you've 10 stated? 11 JUROR NO. 163: Yeah. I think I would. I think 12 I would. 13 MR. SMITH: And you even feel a financial 14 interest in this matter by virtue of increased prices to 15 society in general? 16 JUROR NO. 163: Yeah, I think so. Yeah. 17 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith, we're going to take a 18 recess until 9:00 tomorrow morning as far as you're concerned. 19 Would you please be in the jury pool room over there where you 20 were this morning at 9:00. I'm going to give you the same 21 admonition I've given you before. Do not permit anybody to 22 speak with you or communicate with you on any topic concerning 23 this trial. Don't discuss it with the jurors, or your wife 24 even, and don't get any information from the press or the TV 25 or the newspapers. 180 1 MR. SMITH: Move to strike Mr. James Smith for 2 cause, Your Honor. 3 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher, what do you want to 4 say? 5 MR. STOPHER: Judge, I don't think he qualifies 6 in the sense that he doesn't know anything about this case. 7 He does have a philosophy that a whole lot of people have. 8 JUDGE POTTER: He does know one thing about the 9 case, that he believes that these people have settled with the 10 estate, with the doctor, and incorrectly about the doctor. 11 MR. STOPHER: He got that from the newspaper, 12 just like everybody else that's been in here today said they 13 read the newspaper. 14 JUDGE POTTER: Anyway. Go ahead. 15 MR. STOPHER: He doesn't have any inside 16 information based on that and he has a philosophy that many 17 people have. I don't think he qualifies for cause. 18 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith, is there anything you 19 want to say before I make a final ruling? 20 MR. SMITH: Yes. He's entitled to have his 21 opinion and it might be shared by somebody, but he's 22 disqualified as a juror when he says that he thinks an award 23 for the plaintiffs would be a financial detriment to him and 24 when he has the false belief that these people have already 25 gotten a bunch of money. 181 1 JUDGE POTTER: I'm going to grant the motion to 2 strike him for cause. I don't know where on the upset meter 3 you take somebody off, but from his demeanor and the kind of 4 way he really got rolling there, I feel that he would be very 5 hostile going in just because somebody brought the lawsuit 6 after he believes they've settled with people who are really 7 at fault. 8 You're Mr. Maurice Smith, No. 47? 9 JUROR NO. 47: That's correct. 47. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Would you have a seat, sir. I'll 11 remind you you're still under oath. I guess this is Mr. 12 Smith -- this Mr. Smith will start asking you some questions. 13 MR. SMITH: Hi, Mr. Smith. You've stated the 14 opinion that you feel like -- it says do you have an opinion 15 and you say no on whether or not the FDA is doing a good job, 16 and then you say the pharmaceutical manufacturers are doing an 17 adequate job in advising of the risk inherent in products. My 18 question to you is: Do you have any special information that 19 causes you to believe that? 20 JUROR NO. 47: Special information? No. 21 MR. SMITH: Or any information, I guess? 22 JUROR NO. 47: No. I just -- I see drugs doing 23 a lot of good and I see a lot of new drugs coming out, and 24 evidently they're doing a pretty good job and evidently the 25 pharmaceutical companies are doing a pretty good job. The FDA 182 1 is another government agency that I would respect that 2 they're -- I don't have any opinion on it, really. 3 MR. SMITH: All right. You indicate that some 4 member of your family has had or has been treated for manic 5 depression? 6 JUROR NO. 47: Uh-huh. My mother. 7 MR. SMITH: Your mother? 8 JUROR NO. 47: Uh-huh. 9 MR. SMITH: And has been for some time? 10 JUROR NO. 47: Yeah. For years. 11 MR. SMITH: And she's had Lithium and her 12 Lithium treatment was successful? 13 JUROR NO. 47: Right. 14 MR. SMITH: Is your mother still alive? 15 JUROR NO. 47: Yeah. 16 MR. SMITH: And does her manic depression seem 17 to be under control at this time? 18 JUROR NO. 47: Yes. 19 MR. SMITH: I have a note that you knew someone 20 that took Prozac, or have heard something about Prozac? 21 JUROR NO. 47: No. No. I don't think so. 22 MR. SMITH: In answer to 22, you say that you're 23 of the opinion that many physicians overprescribe drugs. 24 JUROR NO. 47: Yes. 25 MR. SMITH: Do you feel that drug therapy is 183 1 appropriate treatment for mental illness? 2 JUROR NO. 47: Yeah. 3 MR. SMITH: Do you have any information that 4 there might have been overtreatment in connection with Mr. 5 Wesbecker's drug treatment? 6 JUROR NO. 47: No. 7 MR. SMITH: Do you know of any reason why you 8 couldn't be a fair and impartial juror in this case, Mr. 9 Smith? 10 JUROR NO. 47: I don't really know what a fair 11 and impartial juror is, in a way. I mean, I have an opinion 12 on what -- on the little bit I've read on this case. 13 MR. SMITH: And what's that opinion? 14 JUROR NO. 47: My opinion is that it seems to me 15 that while I understand the need for the people who were 16 injured and whose family were injured to -- their need for 17 some kind of money, I don't see at all how a drug as common as 18 Prozac, evidently from what I saw even in the courtroom the 19 other day, could be cause for this gentleman to do this. And 20 it's so widely prescribed, I can't see that -- I think it 21 would be very difficult to convince me that there is a 22 cause-and-effect relationship between this drug and his 23 actions, other than it might have been caused in this case. 24 But it does not seem to cause it from what I saw in the 25 courtroom yesterday in a million other cases. 184 1 MR. SMITH: From what you saw in the courtroom 2 the other day? 3 JUROR NO. 47: Well, I saw in the people the 4 other day saying, "I take Prozac," "I take Prozac," "I take 5 Prozac," which I was a little surprised at the number who took 6 it, and they all seemed fine. 7 MR. SMITH: Do you understand that individuals 8 react in different ways to drugs like Prozac? 9 JUROR NO. 47: Sure. 10 MR. SMITH: Do you understand that we're not 11 claiming that everyone that's been exposed to Prozac -- 12 JUROR NO. 47: No. I don't know what you're 13 claiming. 14 MR. SMITH: You right now would like to see some 15 evidence concerning the numbers of individuals who have this 16 particular reaction? 17 JUROR NO. 47: Would I like to see that? I 18 don't know. 19 MR. SMITH: Well, I don't know whether you'd 20 like to see it or not. 21 JUROR NO. 47: Not particularly. In my list of 22 things I'd like to review, that's not one of them. 23 MR. SMITH: If you were asked to decide this 24 case, in making the determination as to whether or not Prozac 25 is safe or unsafe, is what you're telling me, you would want 185 1 to see some numbers of individuals who had been -- had similar 2 effects, or is there anything -- 3 JUROR NO. 47: I think so. 4 MR. SMITH: -- or is there anything that would 5 be of significance that would cause you to change your opinion 6 that Prozac didn't have anything to do with this? Is there 7 any type of evidence you could conceive of? 8 JUROR NO. 47: I'm not familiar with the whole 9 thing but, sure, I'm a reasonable man. Maybe not fair and 10 impartial, I don't know, but reasonable, anyway. 11 MR. SMITH: Your daughter has a Master's in 12 psychology? 13 JUROR NO. 47: Uh-huh. 14 MR. SMITH: What does she do now? 15 JUROR NO. 47: She's working on her doctorate. 16 MR. SMITH: In psychology? 17 JUROR NO. 47: Yes. 18 MR. SMITH: Where? 19 JUROR NO. 47: At U of L. 20 MR. SMITH: But you say she's not licensed and I 21 assume she's not practicing? 22 JUROR NO. 47: Right. That's correct. 23 MR. SMITH: That's all I have. Thank you, Mr. 24 Smith. 25 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher? 186 1 MR. STOPHER: Mr. Smith, your opinion is only 2 based on what you read in the newspaper on Sunday; did I 3 understand that correctly? 4 JUROR NO. 47: My opinion of what? 5 MR. STOPHER: Your opinion about whether or not 6 Prozac caused or contributed to cause Mr. Wesbecker to do 7 this. 8 JUROR NO. 47: I hadn't really thought about 9 this case. I mean, I haven't read much in the paper or seen 10 much on TV, so what's your question? 11 MR. STOPHER: Is that the basis for it is what 12 you've read in the media? 13 JUROR NO. 47: I would say more so the 14 commonness of the drug and the individual case here seems to 15 be -- I mean, that's the little bit, I mean, everybody's seen 16 something about it. The commonness of the drug. 17 MR. STOPHER: I would assume so. The 18 commonness. Everybody's seen something about it? 19 JUROR NO. 47: My opinion is right now if there 20 are that many people taking it and it were extremely 21 dangerous, it would not be prescribed. 22 MR. STOPHER: Is it your opinion, sir, that no 23 matter what you hear in this case, that's where you're going 24 to wind up? 25 JUROR NO. 47: Oh, I don't know about that. I 187 1 mean, I don't know that much. 2 MR. STOPHER: Do you have an open mind about it? 3 JUROR NO. 47: Yeah. I guess so, you know. 4 Everybody thinks they have an open mind. Did you ever see 5 anybody that has a closed mind? 6 MR. STOPHER: Maybe you're being overly 7 cautious. I think some people would claim they have a closed 8 mind. Be that as it may, we're just talking about you. 9 JUROR NO. 47: It seems rather remote that I 10 would significantly change that. 11 MR. STOPHER: Okay. Do you think that if you 12 are selected as a juror in this case that you could decide 13 based on the facts from the witness stand, the evidence that 14 you hear and the law rather than a newspaper article that you 15 read? 16 JUROR NO. 47: I would try. 17 MR. STOPHER: Do you think that you could uphold 18 that obligation and that oath and approach the problem that 19 way, sir? 20 JUROR NO. 47: I would think so. I don't think 21 a newspaper article is going to have that much influence on 22 me. 23 MR. STOPHER: Fair enough, sir. Thank you. 24 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith, I'm going to excuse 25 you till 9:00 tomorrow morning. 188 1 JUROR NO. 47: Oh, good. 2 JUDGE POTTER: If you will be back in that room 3 over there where you started out today at 9:00. I'm going to 4 give you the same admonition I've given you before. Do not 5 talk to anybody about this case, including other jurors, and 6 do not permit anybody to talk to you. Don't get any 7 information out of the TV or newspaper. Okay? 8 JUROR NO. 47: All right. 9 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much, sir. 10 Mr. Smith, do you have any motions? 11 MR. SMITH: Yes. We move to strike Mr. Maurice 12 Smith for cause. 13 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher? 14 MR. STOPHER: Judge, all he has is just a 15 preliminary opinion based on a newspaper article, nothing more 16 than that. 17 MR. SMITH: No. That's not what I said. 18 MR. FREEMAN: That is what he said. 19 MR. SMITH: No, it's not what he said. No. 20 JUDGE POTTER: Wait. Wait. Wait, Mr. Smith. 21 He did say, "It's very difficult to convince me," and, "It 22 would be rather remote that I would change my mind." 23 MR. STOPHER: We're asking him a hypothetical, 24 Judge, based on whether or not the evidence is strong or weak. 25 That was not given to him in that. All these jurors have read 189 1 these articles and I'm sure everybody's got an opinion, and 2 this man was candid enough to say that he does. 3 JUDGE POTTER: But then he was candid enough to 4 give us the strength of it, and other people have said, 5 "That's what I think right now and I really don't know." 6 MR. SMITH: I think he also says, "I'm basing 7 part of my judgment on the number of people that stood up and 8 said, 'I took Prozac'." 9 JUDGE POTTER: Then you should thank me, Mr. 10 Smith, for letting that information come out, because this guy 11 would have made it through, and the first witness on the stand 12 would have told him there were eight million people. 13 MR. SMITH: I agree. I agree. 14 JUDGE POTTER: In some respects Mr. Stopher is 15 right. I mean, this person is just hearing one fact that's 16 going to come into trial in the first ten minutes of testimony 17 for the defendants. 18 MR. SMITH: But he said his mind is made up and 19 it is remote and unlikely that he will change his opinion. 20 MS. ZETTLER: Right. 21 MR. STOPHER: Well, he wasn't given any context 22 in which to do that. He wasn't given, as the other questions 23 have been asked, "What if we prove this and that." He's just 24 assuming if I sit here for eight weeks is my opinion the same. 25 Well, I guess it would be if he didn't hear anything. I think 190 1 anybody would say that. 2 MS. ZETTLER: He's an intelligent man, Judge. 3 JUDGE POTTER: Wait. Wait. Wait. I'm going to 4 grant the motion to excuse him for cause. 5 You're Mr. Sullivan, No. 212; is that right? 6 JUROR NO. 212: That's correct. 7 JUDGE POTTER: You've been waiting here since 8 9:00 this morning? 9 JUROR NO. 212: Sure have. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Sullivan, I'll remind you 11 you're still under oath. And as an engineer you ought to 12 understand not everything goes the way it's planned sometime. 13 JUROR NO. 212: I certainly do. 14 JUDGE POTTER: We were hoping things would go a 15 little faster yesterday and that just didn't happen. We want 16 you to answer some questions these gentlemen want to ask you. 17 Mr. Stopher? 18 MR. STOPHER: Mr. Sullivan, my name is Ed 19 Stopher. I wanted to ask you some questions about the answers 20 that you gave on the questionnaires, sir. And I want to ask 21 you these questions not for the purposes of delving into your 22 private affairs and your family matters; that's none of my 23 business except in the connection of this case it becomes a 24 matter of -- 25 JUROR NO. 212: I understand that. 191 1 MR. STOPHER: You would understand that. You 2 have indicated, sir, that your wife has been treated with an 3 antidepressant medication. 4 JUROR NO. 212: Yes, she was, before we were 5 married. 6 MR. STOPHER: And I take it that was some time 7 ago? 8 JUROR NO. 212: I think it was back in the late 9 '60s. 10 MR. STOPHER: Did she have any problems with the 11 medication? 12 JUROR NO. 212: Not that I'm aware of. We're 13 still married. 14 MR. STOPHER: All right, sir. I guess that's 15 pretty good proof. You also mentioned, sir, that she was at 16 Our Lady of Peace and I think you indicated in approximately 17 1968, I don't remember the -- so that's the same incident you 18 just told me about? 19 JUROR NO. 212: Same incident. 20 MR. STOPHER: Then there was a reference to -- I 21 guess it's your father? 22 JUROR NO. 212: Correct. 23 MR. STOPHER: And apparently he was hospitalized 24 in Denver? 25 JUROR NO. 212: Denver, yes. Fitzsimmons. 192 1 MR. STOPHER: Was that in connection with 2 depression? 3 JUROR NO. 212: I'm not sure what the connection 4 was there. He had a couple of those. He was in the second 5 world war and had a nervous breakdown in 1950, was 6 hospitalized and was also hospitalized again in 1960 -- mid 7 '60s. I don't recall the exact date. 8 MR. STOPHER: All right. Did he have any 9 problems in connection with the treatment that he received 10 for -- 11 JUROR NO. 212: Not that I'm aware of. 12 MR. STOPHER: All right. In connection, sir, 13 with this particular case, do you have any opinions about the 14 antidepressant Prozac? 15 JUROR NO. 212: No. I really don't know that 16 much about it. 17 MR. STOPHER: And I take it from what you wrote 18 on the answer to No. 26, you don't have any opinion about what 19 caused Joseph Wesbecker to do what he did? 20 JUROR NO. 212: He was a nut. 21 MR. STOPHER: You read that in the newspaper? 22 JUROR NO. 212: No. That was a conclusion I 23 came to. Anybody that would do something like that has to be. 24 MR. STOPHER: We would all agree that he had a 25 long history of mental illness. And can you hear and decide 193 1 this case based on the evidence that comes from the witness 2 stand about that mental illness and about the medications that 3 he took and render a verdict based on the evidence that you 4 hear and on the instructions given to you by the Judge? 5 JUROR NO. 212: I probably could. 6 MR. STOPHER: Okay. Do you think, sir, that any 7 of the experiences with your wife or with your father is going 8 to in any way impact your ability to decide the case based 9 only on the evidence and on the instructions of law given to 10 you by the Judge? 11 JUROR NO. 212: I don't see why they should. 12 MR. STOPHER: Right. Okay, sir. Thank you. 13 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith may have some questions 14 for you, sir. 15 MR. SMITH: Mr. Sullivan, did you get a degree 16 in any particular type of engineering? 17 JUROR NO. 212: Mechanical engineering. 18 MR. SMITH: Do you design products or been 19 involved in the design of any products? 20 JUROR NO. 212: Not products, no. Mostly 21 project engineering, maintenance engineering, process-type 22 engineering. 23 MR. SMITH: Have you had anything to do with the 24 design of systems or things of that nature? 25 JUROR NO. 212: Yes. 194 1 MR. SMITH: You said it was your judgment that 2 Mr. Wesbecker was a nut and that that's what caused him to do 3 this. Does that mean that you're excluding that Prozac could 4 have been a cause for his actions? 5 JUROR NO. 212: Well, I don't know. I'm not 6 sure what would have caused anybody's actions like that. It 7 seems to me that people just get blown away from time to time 8 for whatever reason. 9 MR. SMITH: Would that opinion spill over into 10 your verdict in this case? We intend to present evidence, Mr. 11 Sullivan, that this medication has harmful side effects and 12 that it caused him, albeit he was mentally ill, but the drug 13 was designed for those who are mentally ill, but that one of 14 its side effects caused him to be violent, aggressive and 15 homicidal. Would hearing evidence like this be something that 16 would -- that you would be receptive to, that you would 17 consider? 18 JUROR NO. 212: Oh, yeah. I think you have to 19 consider that. I'm not, you know, naive to think that 20 something couldn't trigger it, but, you know, there's all 21 kinds of people running around in this world, and he was 22 obviously one of them. 23 MR. SMITH: Well, have you formed any opinion at 24 this time as to whether or not Prozac had a negative effect on 25 Mr. Wesbecker? 195 1 JUROR NO. 212: No. I didn't even care what he 2 was taking. I didn't even realize it was Prozac. 3 MR. SMITH: All right. 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 195 1 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much, sir. As far 2 as you're concerned, we're going to stand in recess till 9:00 3 tomorrow morning. 4 JUROR NO. 212: Across the street; right? 5 JUDGE POTTER: Across the street. And I 6 guarantee you we'll get to you before 3:00. And, sir, I want 7 to give you the same admonition I've given you before. Do not 8 permit anyone to speak with or communicate to you in 9 connection with this trial, and any attempt to do so should be 10 communicated to me. Do not discuss this case with the other 11 jurors and do not form any opinions until it is finally 12 submitted to you. 13 (RECESS) 14 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Miller, I want to apologize 15 to you. Everybody -- I made a mistake and made them all come 16 in at 1:00, but everybody else that came in at 1:00, we saw 17 yesterday, we sent them home. Didn't they send a big group 18 home at 1:00 that came in, turned around and went back? 19 Because we took you out of order I didn't give them the 20 information that they knew you already did this interview, but 21 I'm going to send you home now. I'm going to ask you to be 22 back in the jury pool room at 9:00. I'm giving you the same 23 admonition not to talk to anyone about this case and don't let 24 anyone discuss the case with you, including family, friends or 25 other jurors. Do not watch TV or read anything about this in 196 1 the newspapers, and we'll see you back at 9:00 tomorrow. 2 JUROR NO. 129: There's been no harm done. 3 Thank you. 4 JUDGE POTTER: I hope you brought a book. 5 JUROR NO. 129: As a matter of fact I did, and a 6 mass mailing to work on, too. 7 MR. SMITH: Your Honor, if you'll recall, we 8 were questioning Ms. Mabel Marsh early yesterday when we first 9 started this and I had a couple more questions. I'd moved to 10 strike her and it was denied. 11 MR. STOPHER: Who is that? 12 MS. ZETTLER: Borah. 13 MR. SMITH: Borah. That was the first lady we 14 questioned. She was on Prozac. She said she had an opinion 15 that Prozac was a good drug and that she had made up her mind 16 that Prozac was a good drug. 17 JUDGE POTTER: Her daughter-in-law is taking 18 Prozac. 19 MS. ZETTLER: And she had had drugstore 20 experience where there were a number of prescriptions written. 21 MR. SMITH: I thought I was going to have an 22 opportunity to ask her a couple more questions. 23 JUDGE POTTER: We've sent her home, and during 24 the general voir dire tomorrow if you want to ask her a couple 25 more questions -- I did say that. Let's take that up at the 197 1 end. That was the one when you thought that the mere fact 2 that her daughter-in-law took Prozac was going to be an 3 automatic and you kind of cut your questioning short. Okay. 4 Let's go on with Ms. Humes and we'll decide what to do with 5 her. 6 JUDGE POTTER: You're Ms. Karen Humes? 7 JUROR NO. 30: Uh-huh. 8 JUDGE POTTER: Would you have a seat, ma'am. 9 And I'll remind you you're still under oath. These people may 10 want to ask you a few questions, and I forget what part of the 11 cycle we're in. Just one second, ma'am. 12 Mr. Smith? 13 MR. SMITH: Ms. Humes, I don't know if our Xerox 14 machine didn't get it or not. Are you employed now? 15 JUROR NO. 30: No. 16 MR. SMITH: Do you -- when did you last work 17 outside the home? 18 JUROR NO. 30: About a year ago, six months ago. 19 MR. SMITH: And what did you do? 20 JUROR NO. 30: I worked at -- I don't know. I 21 can't think of the name of it now. It's making those capsules 22 that dissolve in water. They're toys. 23 MS. ZETTLER: That make little sponges come out 24 of it? 25 JUROR NO. 30: Yeah. Can't think of the name of 198 1 it. Instant Products on Strawberry Lane. 2 MR. SMITH: Were you laid off there? Did you 3 quit? 4 JUROR NO. 30: I quit. 5 MR. SMITH: And have you been seeking 6 employment? 7 JUROR NO. 30: No, not really. My husband 8 works. 9 MR. SMITH: You have small children at home? 10 JUROR NO. 30: Yeah. Two-year-old. 11 MR. SMITH: Do you know of any reason why you 12 couldn't be a fair and impartial juror in this case? 13 JUROR NO. 30: Yeah. I remembered Monday night 14 a really good friend of mine was on Prozac and he shot and 15 killed himself, and I forgot about that till Monday night. 16 MR. SMITH: When was this? 17 JUROR NO. 30: One was about seven years ago and 18 then there was one about not even a year ago; I had two good 19 friends that did it. 20 MR. SMITH: And they were both on Prozac at the 21 time? 22 JUROR NO. 30: Yes. 23 MR. SMITH: Has that caused you to form any 24 judgment with respect to whether or not Mr. Wesbecker's 25 homicidal acts on September 14, 1989, were in any way related 199 1 to Prozac? 2 JUROR NO. 30: I don't really know how I would 3 feel about it, you know, having two close friends to kill 4 themselves on it. I mean, my aunt takes it and she ain't had 5 no problems. 6 MR. SMITH: The issue here is whether or not you 7 can base your verdict and your judgment on the evidence you 8 hear presented at trial and set your personal experiences 9 aside insomuch as your decision comes from what you hear in 10 the courtroom versus what you know outside. 11 JUROR NO. 30: I honestly don't think I could. 12 I mean... 13 MR. SMITH: All right. 14 JUROR NO. 30: Because we were really close 15 friends, and it was stated if he wasn't taking Prozac he 16 probably wouldn't have done it. I don't know. I don't know 17 nothing about the stuff. 18 MR. SMITH: You don't know anything about 19 Prozac? 20 JUROR NO. 30: No. Just my friends taking it 21 and stuff like that. I've never had no experience taking it 22 or anything like that. 23 MR. SMITH: Do you know anything about the 24 Wesbecker shootings? 25 JUROR NO. 30: I've heard of it. 200 1 MR. SMITH: I guess my question is, again, can 2 you base your verdict -- since you don't know anything 3 specifically about Prozac and you don't know anything about 4 this shooting or Mr. Wesbecker, can you base your verdict on 5 what you hear? 6 JUROR NO. 30: I don't think I would. I have 7 hard feelings because of my friend killing herself on it. I 8 don't know if I would have anything to do with it. 9 MR. SMITH: Thank you. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher? 11 MR. STOPHER: No questions, Judge. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Is this one I can rule on? Mr. 13 Stopher, I'm going to grant your motion. 14 Ms. Humes, I'm going to excuse you from serving 15 on this case. What you need to do is call the telephone 16 number on your badge and listen to a recording and they'll 17 tell you whether you're supposed to come in tomorrow. All 18 right? 19 JUROR NO. 30: Okay. 20 JUDGE POTTER: There are other people in the 21 jury pool that are going to be over there and, although you're 22 excused, I'm going to ask you not to talk to anybody in the 23 jury pool about this case because you might be talking to 24 somebody that's a potential juror. But you're excused from 25 this case, but I still want you not to talk about it in the 201 1 jury pool. 2 JUROR NO. 30: Oh, yeah. Okay. 3 JUDGE POTTER: Let me say this. I appreciate 4 you coming back and saying, "I thought of something later," 5 because I think I told everybody out there, and I want you to 6 do it. 7 JUROR NO. 30: I didn't think of it till really 8 late Monday night. 9 JUDGE POTTER: That's fine. Thank you very 10 much, ma'am. 11 You're Ms. Daphne Jones; is that right? 12 JUROR NO. 38: Yes. 13 JUDGE POTTER: How are you, Ms. Jones? I want 14 to remind you you're still under oath. Mr. Stopher here may 15 have some questions for you. 16 JUROR NO. 38: Okay. 17 MR. STOPHER: Hi, Ms. Jones. 18 JUROR NO. 38: Hi. 19 MR. STOPHER: I was kind of curious about a 20 couple of answers that you gave. There were some questions 21 about what you thought about the FDA and about pharmaceutical 22 companies and you wrote down "no personal comment." And what 23 does that mean? 24 JUROR NO. 38: Read the question. 25 MR. STOPHER: Well, the questions are kind of 202 1 long. I was trying to not do it. You can follow along with 2 me. "Do you have an opinion as to whether or not the FDA is 3 doing a good job or bad job in protecting consumer health and 4 safety," and you wrote "no personal comment" and the same 5 thing with regard to pharmaceutical company, you wrote "no 6 personal comment." 7 JUROR NO. 38: I guess I didn't have an opinion 8 one way or the other. I feel like they're doing as best they 9 possibly can do with that. That's what I meant, no personal 10 comment. 11 MR. STOPHER: I got you now. And there's 12 another one here that I couldn't read because it is so light 13 right here I do not -- I couldn't read it. 14 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher, you want to look at 15 this? 16 MR. STOPHER: Thank you. 17 JUROR NO. 38: "I do not know of anyone who has 18 taken this drug, as well as I have never taken this drug." 19 MR. STOPHER: I got you. I just couldn't read 20 it. All right. According to the questionnaire, you don't 21 have an opinion as to whether or not Prozac caused or 22 contributed to cause Mr. Wesbecker's shootings on September 23 14th? 24 JUROR NO. 38: With that, I have no knowledge -- 25 well enough knowledge about the drug to honestly say one way 203 1 or the other. 2 MR. STOPHER: All right. 3 JUROR NO. 38: I mean, I would have had to see a 4 lot of research on it to see if that was the cause, but I 5 couldn't give an honest opinion because I really don't have 6 any resource to back me up. 7 MR. STOPHER: Okay. You work as a -- 8 JUROR NO. 38: Radiologic technologist. 9 MR. STOPHER: Is that what I tend to think of as 10 an X-ray person? 11 JUROR NO. 38: X-ray. 12 MR. STOPHER: And you work at St. Anthony's 13 downtown here? 14 JUROR NO. 38: Medical Center. Uh-huh. 15 MR. STOPHER: I take it in that occupation you 16 don't have any direct contact with Prozac or the 17 administration of Prozac or the distribution of it to 18 patients? 19 JUROR NO. 38: No. no. 20 MR. STOPHER: All right. You also mentioned 21 that you went to church with a man and I think you used the 22 name Ray Wacker -- 23 JUROR NO. 38: Wacker, Roy Wacker. 24 MR. STOPHER: -- who used to work at Standard 25 Gravure? 204 1 JUROR NO. 38: Standard Gravure. Uh-huh. 2 Q. Has he ever told you anything about the company 3 or about this incident or about Mr. Wesbecker or his history? 4 JUROR NO. 38: No. He does not. Like I said, 5 when he passed -- he passed of natural causes. I really 6 couldn't tell you whether it was before or after when he 7 passed, but he had a heart attack. So I don't know whether he 8 was there during the time or after. I really can't remember. 9 MR. STOPHER: Okay. Ms. Jones, if you were 10 involved in this trial, is there anything about yourself that 11 you think may cause you not to be fair or impartial to the two 12 different sides in this case? 13 JUROR NO. 38: There's nothing about myself, no. 14 MR. STOPHER: Okay. All right. Thank you, Ms. 15 Jones. 16 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith? 17 Wait just a second, ma'am. He may have some. 18 JUROR NO. 38: Sorry. I'm just so anxious here. 19 JUDGE POTTER: There's nothing wrong with that. 20 MR. SMITH: Ms. Jones, you are in health 21 occupation education; is that correct? 22 JUROR NO. 38: Yes. 23 MR. SMITH: And in that are you trained or do 24 you train individuals who are psychiatric nurses, psychiatric 25 ward techs or anything of that nature? 205 1 JUROR NO. 38: No. 2 MR. SMITH: Do you have any specialized 3 knowledge in psychology or psychiatry? 4 JUROR NO. 38: No. 5 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Ms. Jones. 6 JUDGE POTTER: Ms. Jones, I'm going to excuse 7 you till 9:00 tomorrow morning, not at 1:00, but 9:00 tomorrow 8 morning. Again I caution you about my admonition. Do not let 9 anyone talk to you or communicate with you about this case, 10 and that includes picking things up off the TV or out of the 11 newspaper. Do not discuss this with your other jurors or form 12 any opinions about this case until it is finally submitted to 13 you. 14 You're Mr. Jump. Have a seat, sir. I'll remind 15 you you're still under oath. Mr. Smith here may want to ask 16 you a few questions and then Mr. Stopher. 17 JUROR NO. 110: Sure. 18 MR. SMITH: Mr. Jump, it's a little difficult to 19 tell from this copy as to what you do. What's your job? And 20 you may have straightened it out for us earlier but... 21 JUROR NO. 110: At the time I filled it out I 22 had another job, and I had just changed jobs right before I 23 had come in, so I've only been working this job for maybe two 24 weeks. 25 MR. SMITH: What is your current job? 206 1 JUROR NO. 110: I work maintenance at Brown 2 Noltemeyer Construction Company on North Peterson here in 3 Louisville. 4 MR. SMITH: And where did you work before that? 5 JUROR NO. 110: I worked for Mark Henry 6 Contracting, did carpet and floor covering for Sam Kinnaird's. 7 MR. SMITH: Your brother is a police officer? 8 JUROR NO. 110: Yes. For the University of 9 Louisville. 10 MR. SMITH: Have you heard him make any comment 11 concerning this incident? 12 JUROR NO. 110: He hasn't had any involvement 13 with it, so he hasn't made any type of comment at all about 14 it. 15 MR. SMITH: Is the University of Louisville 16 separate totally? 17 JUROR NO. 110: It's separate totally from all 18 police departments. They have the same type of training. 19 They go ten weeks, but their jurisdiction is the University 20 campus and the streets adjacent to it. 21 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Mr. Jump. That's all I 22 have. 23 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher? 24 MR. STOPHER: In your questionnaire, sir, you 25 indicated that -- I think you -- I can't quite read it. 207 1 JUROR NO. 110: My handwriting's not the best. 2 MR. STOPHER: It looks like it says college. 3 Did you go to college? 4 JUROR NO. 110: I went to U of L since fall of 5 '92, but I'm working full time right now and I'll return to 6 college in January. 7 MR. STOPHER: As soon as you get enough money? 8 JUROR NO. 110: Exactly. I'm working to save my 9 money. 10 MR. STOPHER: What are you studying? 11 JUROR NO. 110: I want to go into public service 12 somehow because I feel I'm a good public speaker, I believe. 13 MR. STOPHER: Do you live at home with your 14 parents? 15 JUROR NO. 110: Yes, sir. That's correct. 16 MR. STOPHER: Okay. And are you the only one in 17 the household other than them? 18 JUROR NO. 110: My sister, she just graduated 19 from UK, she lives there. 20 MR. STOPHER: And is this the sister that has 21 the degree in psychology? 22 JUROR NO. 110: Yes. 23 MR. STOPHER: And your brother who is the 24 policeman does not live there? 25 JUROR NO. 110: Does not live there, no. 208 1 MR. STOPHER: All right. Okay. Do you have any 2 opinion about why Joseph Wesbecker did what he did on 3 September 14, 1989? 4 JUROR NO. 110: Well, since it's been so far 5 back, if I had an opinion then, I wouldn't have an idea of 6 what I had an opinion about, because since everything's 7 happened in the news, I didn't pay attention to it. I don't 8 watch the news very much anyway. I don't really have time to. 9 MR. STOPHER: You indicate that somebody in the 10 household owns a Smith & Wesson nine millimeter? 11 JUROR NO. 110: It's not really the household; 12 it's my brother, the police officer, so it's not really 13 exactly in the household. So I kind of got the question mixed 14 up here. 15 MR. STOPHER: I think the more I look at it the 16 better I understand that's probably what you tried to write. 17 I believe those are all the questions I have, sir. 18 JUDGE POTTER: I'm going to excuse you till 9:00 19 tomorrow morning. In the morning at 9:00, if you'll be over 20 in the jury pool room across the street. Between now and then 21 I'm going to remind you of my admonition. Don't let anybody 22 talk to you or communicate on this, don't talk to your sister 23 about it because she may have a little interest and don't let 24 her try and tell you something even if you don't ask. 25 JUROR NO. 110: My sister and I don't get along 209 1 very well so... 2 JUDGE POTTER: Well, and obviously don't pick 3 anything up off the TV and don't talk to the other jurors 4 about it. 5 JUDGE POTTER: You're Ms. Geraldine King? 6 JUROR NO. 88: Yes, sir. 7 JUDGE POTTER: Would you have a seat, ma'am. I 8 remind you you're still under oath. These gentlemen may want 9 to ask you some questions and, Mr. Stopher, why don't you go 10 first. 11 MR. STOPHER: Ms. King, on the little 12 questionnaire form you indicated that you're an educator with 13 the Archdiocese. Can you tell me what it is that you educate 14 or who it is you educate. 15 JUROR NO. 88: Well, my real title is Secondary 16 Curriculum Consultant, which means that I do all kinds of 17 things for junior high and high school from in-service, 18 governor's scholars, commonwealth diploma, those kinds of 19 things. 20 MR. STOPHER: All right. You don't actually 21 teach, then, so much in the classroom? 22 JUROR NO. 88: I am not in the classroom, no. I 23 work at the administrative level. 24 MR. STOPHER: Your husband is apparently 25 employed at TKR? 210 1 JUROR NO. 88: Cable. 2 MR. STOPHER: The cable? Has his employment in 3 connection with the media had any effect on your getting 4 information about this particular case that's not broadcasted 5 generally? 6 JUROR NO. 88: No. 7 MR. STOPHER: Okay. He hasn't done any 8 investigative reporting? 9 JUROR NO. 88: Oh, no. Cable is -- that's not 10 what that is. 11 MR. STOPHER: I thought it would be at the 12 distribution of the signal as opposed to gathering the stories 13 and so forth? 14 JUROR NO. 88: Yes, sir. 15 MR. STOPHER: In connection with the long-form 16 questionnaire that you filled out, you mentioned that in 17 connection with Prozac that you have heard information in 18 passing about Prozac. Was that from the media or was that 19 through some personal contact? 20 JUROR NO. 88: Media. 21 MR. STOPHER: All right. In other words, 22 newspaper stories and that sort of thing? 23 JUROR NO. 88: TV, radio, yes. 24 MR. STOPHER: Okay. Have you reached any 25 conclusions based on what you've read in the newspaper or seen 211 1 on television about Prozac? 2 JUROR NO. 88: No, sir. 3 MR. STOPHER: In connection with this particular 4 case, I couldn't read -- and it's probably a function of the 5 Xeroxing -- but I couldn't tell how long you've lived in 6 Louisville. 7 JUROR NO. 88: Seven years. 8 MR. STOPHER: Seven years. And so you were here 9 at the time of the shootings? 10 JUROR NO. 88: Yes, sir. 11 MR. STOPHER: I would assume that you have read 12 and seen on television accounts of those events and Mr. 13 Wesbecker and that sort of thing; is that an accurate 14 assumption? 15 JUROR NO. 88: Yes. 16 MR. STOPHER: Have you reached any conclusions 17 based on that information? 18 JUROR NO. 88: Aside from the fact that it was a 19 tragic occurrence, probably not. 20 MR. STOPHER: In connection with your experience 21 with prescription medications, I noticed that you have had an 22 allergic reaction to penicillin way back in the '50s? 23 JUROR NO. 88: When I was a child. 24 MR. STOPHER: Okay. Have you had any reactions 25 or any adverse side effects to any other prescription 212 1 medications? 2 JUROR NO. 88: No. I've hardly had any occasion 3 to use any, thank God. 4 MR. STOPHER: Are you opposed to prescription 5 medications or is it just coincidental that you haven't needed 6 them? 7 JUROR NO. 88: No. I'm not opposed and I've 8 been lucky enough to be healthy. 9 MR. STOPHER: In connection with that experience 10 with penicillin, do you have any idea that drugs are unsafe if 11 someone does react adversely to them? 12 JUROR NO. 88: I don't know that I understand 13 the question. What do you mean unsafe? 14 MR. STOPHER: Let me try to see if I can 15 understand what your position is based on your experience. 16 You had a bad reaction to penicillin? 17 JUROR NO. 88: Uh-huh. 18 MR. STOPHER: Does that mean that you think that 19 pencillin shouldn't be sold or distributed? 20 JUROR NO. 88: Absolutely not. I have a child 21 who would have died if it didn't exist. 22 MR. STOPHER: So you understand that people have 23 reactions and can react differently at different times to 24 different drugs? 25 JUROR NO. 88: Oh, yes. 213 1 MR. STOPHER: Either my eyes are going bad or 2 it's a function of the light. 3 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith has the original there. 4 MR. STOPHER: Let me take a look at that and 5 maybe I can save you having to discuss things that you would 6 prefer not to discuss, perhaps. 7 JUROR NO. 88: That's okay. Because I know 8 you-all are just going to keep this all quiet anyway. 9 MR. STOPHER: (Reviews document) I think the 10 note now that I can read it answers the question that I was 11 going to ask you. I take it that there's nothing about that 12 experience that has caused you to have an adverse opinion of 13 psychologists or psychiatrists in a negative way. 14 JUROR NO. 88: No, sir. 15 MR. STOPHER: Am I correct about that? 16 JUROR NO. 88: Yes. You're correct. 17 MR. STOPHER: And I think you've indicated that 18 there were no other family instances of depression or 19 involvement? 20 JUROR NO. 88: Not that I'm aware of, anyway. 21 MR. STOPHER: Okay. All right. Ms. King, do 22 you know of any reason why you could not sit and hear this and 23 decide it fairly based on the evidence? Is there anything 24 that -- if you were in our shoes trying to select a fair and 25 impartial juror, is there anything that you think would 214 1 exclude you or should exclude you? 2 JUROR NO. 88: No. I don't think so. 3 MR. STOPHER: Okay. Thank you ma'am. 4 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith? 5 MR. SMITH: I have no questions for you, Ms. 6 King. Thank you. 7 JUDGE POTTER: Ms. King, I'm going to excuse you 8 till 9:00 tomorrow morning, and I'm going to ask you to be 9 back in the jury assembly area where you've started out each 10 day so far. During this recess I remind you of my admonition. 11 Do not permit anybody to talk to you about this case. Don't 12 discuss it with anybody, that includes your husband or your 13 children or whatever it happens to be. Obviously, don't get 14 any information from the TV or newspaper and don't discuss it 15 with the other jurors. See you tomorrow at nine. 16 You're Mr. Jeffrey King, is that right, sir? 17 JUROR NO. 24: Yes, sir. 18 JUDGE POTTER: I want to remind you, sir, you're 19 still under oath. If you'll have a seat, some of these 20 gentlemen want to ask you some questions. Mr. Smith, why 21 don't you start off. 22 MR. SMITH: Mr. King, in response to the 23 question about the Food and Drug Administration you say you 24 think they are doing a good job in protecting consumer health 25 and safety so far. 215 1 JUROR NO. 24: Uh-huh. 2 MR. SMITH: Do you have any particular knowledge 3 concerning what the FDA has done or how they oversee 4 pharmaceutical products? 5 JUROR NO. 24: No, sir; I don't. 6 MR. SMITH: Do you know of any reason why you 7 couldn't be a fair and impartial juror in this case, Mr. King? 8 JUROR NO. 24: No, sir; I don't. No, sir. 9 MR. SMITH: Formed any opinions whatsoever in 10 connection with this matter? 11 JUROR NO. 24: No, sir. 12 MR. SMITH: Thank you, sir. 13 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. King, wait a minute. Mr. 14 Stopher? No. Mr. King, will you wait a minute? Mr. Stopher, 15 you can ask your questions. 16 MR. STOPHER: You'd think I'd have the drill 17 down by now, wouldn't you? Every now and then, Mr. King, you 18 just kind of drift away, at least I do. 19 Let me just ask you a couple of questions, sir. 20 You're employed now as a welder apparently with Crown 21 Divisions? 22 JUROR NO. 24: Yes. Well, right now I'm 23 unemployed with Crown Divisions. I'm working for my 24 stepfather. 25 MR. STOPHER: Okay. What are you doing with 216 1 him? 2 JUROR NO. 24: We frame houses and remodel and a 3 little bit of everything. 4 MR. STOPHER: Okay. Since you got out of high 5 school have you been employed mainly in construction, or has 6 it been in welding or some of both? 7 JUROR NO. 24: In welding. 8 MR. STOPHER: Okay. You were living here, but 9 you were quite young at the time of this shooting; am I right, 10 sir? 11 JUROR NO. 24: Yes, sir. 12 MR. STOPHER: Do you remember anything about it, 13 sir? 14 JUROR NO. 24: Not too much. I just remember it 15 was pretty big in the news and just about some guy shot a lot 16 of people. That's all I really know about it. 17 MR. STOPHER: You haven't read anything since 18 then or seen anything on television since then about what 19 occurred? 20 JUROR NO. 24: Not really. I don't read the 21 newspaper hardly anyhow. I watch very little TV anyway, but, 22 no, not here lately I haven't heard too much. 23 MR. STOPHER: All right. Have you heard or read 24 anything about Prozac? 25 JUROR NO. 24: Yes, I've heard a little bit 217 1 about it. I've heard that it's like a kind of drug they give 2 people that has stress or depression and stuff like that. 3 MR. STOPHER: Okay. Have you heard anything 4 else about it or read anything else about it? 5 JUROR NO. 24: No, sir. 6 MR. STOPHER: Do you have any ideas as to why 7 this man did what he did when he shot all those people? 8 JUROR NO. 24: No, I don't. 9 MR. STOPHER: You own a shotgun that you use I 10 assume for hunting? 11 JUROR NO. 24: Yes, sir. 12 MR. STOPHER: And you indicated that your family 13 has other kinds of weapons? 14 JUROR NO. 24: Yes. Uh-huh. 15 MR. STOPHER: Is there anybody that you know or 16 live with who owns an assault rifle? 17 JUROR NO. 24: No, sir. Just mainly muzzle 18 loaders and shotguns and derringers. 19 MR. STOPHER: Sporting-type guns? 20 JUROR NO. 24: Yes. Uh-huh. 21 MR. STOPHER: All right. All right, sir. I 22 think those are all the questions I have. 23 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. King, I'm going to excuse you 24 till 9:00 tomorrow morning, and would you please go back to 25 the jury assembly area at 9:00 tomorrow morning. I'll give 218 1 you the same instructions I've given you before. Don't talk 2 to anybody about this. Don't let anybody talk to you about 3 it. Don't pick up anything off the TV or newspaper about it. 4 Don't, obviously, talk to the other jurors. See you at 9:00 5 tomorrow morning, sir. 6 How are you, Mr. Martin? You want to have a 7 seat. I'll remind you you're still under oath. Some of these 8 people may want to ask you a question or two, and I guess it's 9 Mr. Stopher. 10 MR. STOPHER: Mr. Martin, I notice that you work 11 for Pepsi-Cola, on the short form of the questionnaire? 12 JUROR NO. 181: Uh-huh. Right. 13 MR. STOPHER: What do you do for Pepsi, sir? 14 JUROR NO. 181: Forklift operator. 15 MR. STOPHER: You work in the plant? 16 JUROR NO. 181: Warehouse, loading trucks, what 17 they order out for the next day. 18 MR. STOPHER: And apparently your wife works at 19 UPS? 20 JUROR NO. 181: Right. 21 MR. STOPHER: Okay. All right. In connection, 22 sir, with the longer questionnaire that you filled out, you 23 indicated that you have no opinion about this case? 24 JUROR NO. 181: Right. 25 MR. STOPHER: Did you -- I believe you lived 219 1 here at the time -- you've lived here all your life? 2 JUROR NO. 181: Right. 3 MR. STOPHER: Did you know about this incident 4 at the time that it occurred? 5 JUROR NO. 181: The day it happened it was all 6 over the news. That's about it. 7 MR. STOPHER: Right. And did you form any 8 opinions on that date or since then? 9 JUROR NO. 181: No. Actually, I never kept up 10 with it because I work two jobs. I work Pepsi-Cola and do my 11 lawn and landscaping business. I don't have time to do too 12 much watching TV or reading the paper. 13 MR. STOPHER: Working all the time? 14 JUROR NO. 181: Right. 15 MR. STOPHER: Have you formed any opinions about 16 why the man did what he did that day? 17 JUROR NO. 181: No, I haven't. I mean, I don't 18 keep up with it. 19 MR. STOPHER: What about Prozac, sir? You know 20 what that is, don't you? 21 JUROR NO. 181: Yeah. 22 MR. STOPHER: Do you have any opinions about 23 Prozac? 24 JUROR NO. 181: No. Just, what, antidepressant 25 drug; that's the only thing I know. 220 1 MR. STOPHER: Have you read or seen anything on 2 television about it and how it's received or not received in 3 the medical community? 4 JUROR NO. 181: No. Like I said, I don't watch 5 TV too much. 6 MR. STOPHER: Nobody in your family's had any 7 reaction to any sort of prescription medications? 8 JUROR NO. 181: (Shakes head negatively). 9 MR. STOPHER: Have you ever taken any 10 prescriptions, sir? 11 JUROR NO. 181: Antibiotics. 12 MR. STOPHER: Have you ever had any bad 13 experiences with antibiotics or anything else that's been 14 prescribed for you? 15 JUROR NO. 181: No. 16 MR. STOPHER: Okay. I think those are all the 17 questions I have, sir. 18 JUDGE POTTER: Let me follow up on one thing, 19 Mr. Martin. When we talked to you yesterday you indicated you 20 were going to check with your union or whatnot and find out 21 what your situation was. What did they tell you? 22 JUROR NO. 181: Two weeks. 23 JUDGE POTTER: That's the most they'll pay? 24 JUROR NO. 181: Right. 25 JUDGE POTTER: Do you live at home? 221 1 JUROR NO. 181: I own a home. 2 JUDGE POTTER: That's right. You're married 3 with a couple children. What do you earn as a forklift 4 driver? 5 JUROR NO. 181: I made about twenty-eight seven 6 last year. 7 JUDGE POTTER: Twenty-seven thousand dollars for 8 the year? 9 JUROR NO. 181: That's good. 10 MR. SMITH: Mr. Martin, I just have one 11 question. In connection with Question No. 5, about whether or 12 not the FDA is doing a good job or bad job in protecting 13 safety, you wrote no, you didn't have any opinion, and then it 14 looks like maybe your pen skipped or something, and it looks 15 like it was an exclamation mark? 16 JUROR NO. 181: That wasn't nothing. 17 MR. SMITH: That doesn't mean anything other 18 than no? 19 JUROR NO. 181: No. That's it. I should have 20 just wrote no. I realized that. 21 MR. SMITH: That's all I have, Mr. Martin. 22 Thank you. 23 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Martin, I'm going to excuse 24 you till 9:00 tomorrow morning. Would you be over in the jury 25 pool area where you were this morning at 9:00. I give you the 222 1 same admonition I've given you before. Don't talk to anybody 2 about this case. Don't let anybody talk to you about the case 3 and, you know, don't pick anything up off the TV or the radio 4 or the newspaper. Thank you, sir. 5 JUROR NO. 181: Thank you. 6 JUDGE POTTER: You're Mr. Moert? 7 JUROR NO. 142: Mort or Mert (phonetic). 8 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Moert, I want to remind you 9 you're still under oath. These gentlemen may want to ask you 10 a few questions, and I guess we're with Mr. Smith. 11 MR. SMITH: Hi, Mr. -- it's Officer Moert, isn't 12 it? You're a police officer with the -- police supervisor 13 with the Kentucky State Police? 14 JUROR NO. 142: Yes. 15 MR. SMITH: Did you or any member of your 16 organization have anything to do with the investigation of the 17 Wesbecker case? 18 JUROR NO. 142: No. Not that I'm aware of. 19 MR. SMITH: It was done exclusively within the 20 Louisville PD jurisdiction? 21 JUROR NO. 142: As far as I know. 22 MR. SMITH: In answer to No. 25 on your 23 questionnaire, "I have a very strong opinion that Prozac was 24 not a factor in this case. I have reviewed a good amount of 25 training reference workplace violence and what caused it." 223 1 JUROR NO. 142: Uh-huh. 2 MR. SMITH: And then you say in answer to No. 3 26, whether or not Wesbecker's action caused this, "My opinion 4 is that he was not a causal factor." Is that right? 5 JUROR NO. 142: Well, let me... Well, I said 6 "it's not the causal factor," I was referring to Prozac. 7 MR. SMITH: Yes. 8 JUROR NO. 142: Yes. That Prozac was not the 9 factor that caused this; that's what I was saying. 10 MR. SMITH: Right. Maybe I phrased it wrong. 11 It appears to me that in your training and in your experience 12 you have done an extraordinary amount of studying in violence, 13 work-related violence and in causes of conduct like this? 14 JUROR NO. 142: Yes, sir. I would say it's not 15 extraordinary, but I've gone to a number of conferences where 16 we talk about violence in the workplace, we discuss different 17 cases that have happened, such as the ones at the mail 18 carriers -- at the post offices and that type of thing. And 19 from the training that I've had, there's more emphasis put on 20 what employers do in the sense of management tactics or the 21 lack of management tactics, and the way employees are treated 22 and the way that person perceives themselves at the time they 23 do particular types of things, in the sense that they 24 typically feel that they have lost in life and they strike out 25 at something. And very typically it's at the workplace, on a 224 1 family member or something of that nature. 2 So that's why when you talk about Prozac -- and 3 I don't really know a lot about it. I do know some people 4 that have said that they've taken it and they've had no, you 5 know, no ill effects and that type of thing. I don't know if 6 it caused it or doesn't. But what I'm saying is my training 7 makes me lean more towards an area of the feeling that this 8 was not the factor, more of the individual and his 9 circumstances of his life and where he was in his life and 10 that type of thing. 11 MR. SMITH: That's exactly the defense that 12 Lilly's going to raise in this case that, among other things, 13 that Mr. Wesbecker was lashing out at perceived injustices and 14 wrongdoings that had occurred to him in his employment and 15 that Prozac didn't have any relationship to this. It looks 16 like your opinion and Lilly's are hand in hand. 17 JUROR NO. 142: And it's nothing that I've tried 18 to do, sir. I'm just trying to be honest with you. 19 MR. SMITH: I know that. I say that to bring it 20 to this point. Do you think that your opinion, based on your 21 experience and training and your talking with other people 22 about their experience with Prozac, will affect your judgment 23 in hearing the evidence in this case? 24 JUROR NO. 142: I feel that it would, sir. To 25 be quite honest with you, I do. 225 1 MR. SMITH: You think that you're going to carry 2 that into your verdict? This bias or these feelings would be 3 reflected by your verdict? 4 JUROR NO. 142: I think everybody that comes 5 into that Court will have a life experience and I think that 6 your main life experience, when you come down to making your 7 decision, is going to have a tremendous impact; if it doesn't, 8 then I don't think you're thinking clearly, so I believe that 9 it would. 10 MR. SMITH: Your life experience, though, is 11 directed toward studying violence or you've made a study of 12 violence, you're a police officer? 13 JUROR NO. 142: I was the post commander at 14 LaGrange during the Carroll County bus accident. I was there 15 for eight to ten weeks, whatever it amounted to, almost every 16 day in that courtroom. I was there during voir dire, if 17 that's the correct term. 18 JUDGE POTTER: That's as good as any lawyer 19 does. 20 JUROR NO. 142: And during the whole selection 21 process I was sitting with the prosecutor in a number of 22 different interviews. And I know what violence is, and I've 23 been inside that bus. And I remember the first time I looked 24 at it I thought I could hear the children screaming. And it's 25 the type of case this is going to be; the -- the emotional 226 1 impact of this case is yet to come. I'm sure you-all are 2 aware of that. I feel that causes me as much of concern as 3 anything in this case as much as my feelings about what 4 behavior caused him to act as he did. 5 MR. SMITH: I understand, I think, what you're 6 saying. Are you saying that your experience is going to 7 affect your verdict one way or the other? 8 JUROR NO. 142: I don't want to sit on this 9 case, to be quite frank with you, but based on the emotional 10 end of it, if I had to, I could deal with that because I've 11 dealt with that in the past. But based on my experience, I 12 would go back to what we first discussed, that I would be more 13 inclined to believe that Prozac was not a factor. I mean, 14 that's my -- you know, that would have to be my position. 15 MR. SMITH: Do you think that would carry 16 forward in your deliberations? 17 JUROR NO. 142: I believe that it would. 18 MR. SMITH: And do you think that people, by 19 virtue of knowing you're a police officer and probably will 20 know that you've had some experience in violence, you think 21 jurors are liable to look to you or be influenced by you and 22 your guidance based on your experiences? 23 JUROR NO. 142: Well, I would have to express my 24 opinions. I've never been known not to, so I would say yes. 25 I would think that. 227 1 MR. SMITH: Thank you, sir. 2 JUDGE POTTER: Any questions, Mr. Stopher? 3 MR. STOPHER: None. 4 JUDGE POTTER: Can I rule on Mr. Smith's motion 5 before I let this gentleman go? 6 MR. STOPHER: Yes. 7 JUDGE POTTER: I'm not near as nice as Judge 8 Satterwhite, so I'm not going to let you sit through it. 9 Office Moert, I want to thank you for your honesty and I'm 10 going to excuse you. What you need to do is call the 11 telephone number on that badge and there will be a recording, 12 and it will say numbers such and such come in and numbers such 13 and such don't. Although I'm excusing you, you can go home 14 and talk about it with your wife and whatnot, but over there 15 there might be other people listening and there may be a 16 potential juror. 17 JUROR NO. 142: I can say that I've heard very 18 little discussion. As a matter of fact, we've been talking 19 about refrigerators in here. Thank you. 20 JUDGE POTTER: That's the way it should be. 21 Hi. You're Terri Morrison? 22 JUROR NO. 20: Yes, sir. 23 JUDGE POTTER: I want to remind you, ma'am, 24 you're still under oath. Some people here may have a few 25 questions for you. 228 1 Mr. Stopher, you want to start? 2 MR. STOPHER: Thank you, Judge. Ms. Morrison, 3 my name is Ed Stopher. I wanted to ask you about your present 4 place of employment. You're a lab technician at -- it looks 5 like Interpolymer? 6 JUROR NO. 20: Yes, sir. 7 MR. STOPHER: What is that? 8 JUROR NO. 20: It's a small chemical company 9 that they make polymers that go into, like, floor finishes and 10 things like that. 11 MR. STOPHER: These would be, like, resins and 12 bonding agents and that sort of thing? 13 JUROR NO. 20: Yes, sir. 14 MR. STOPHER: And do you work in the actual 15 production or do you -- 16 JUROR NO. 20: I'm the quality control lab tech. 17 MR. STOPHER: You're the QC person? 18 JUROR NO. 20: Yeah. 19 MR. STOPHER: And you've just been there for 20 three months. Did you have a job before that or were you home 21 taking care of the little people? 22 JUROR NO. 20: I was home taking care of the 23 little people for a little while, and before that I was 24 working at Ashland Chemical as their quality control 25 coordinator. 229 1 MR. STOPHER: And you indicated on the long 2 questionnaire that you're a college graduate? 3 JUROR NO. 20: Uh-huh. 4 MR. STOPHER: Is that in chemistry? 5 JUROR NO. 20: Yes, sir. 6 MR. STOPHER: Ms. Morrison, in the long-form 7 questionnaire you indicated that your son had an allergic 8 reaction to Amoxil, which I believe is an antibiotic of some 9 sort? 10 JUROR NO. 20: Yes, sir. 11 MR. STOPHER: And I would guess he probably had 12 it prescribed for ear infections or something like that? 13 JUROR NO. 20: Uh-huh. 14 MR. STOPHER: He apparently had a skin reaction 15 of some sort? 16 JUROR NO. 20: Yes, sir. 17 MR. STOPHER: Is that the only reaction that you 18 or any member of your family has ever had to a prescription? 19 JUROR NO. 20: That I know of; yes, sir. 20 MR. STOPHER: Okay. Do you think that merely 21 because someone has an unpredicted or unpredictable reaction 22 to a medication that that makes it unsafe? 23 JUROR NO. 20: No, sir. 24 MR. STOPHER: You indicated that your husband 25 owns a couple of guns? 230 1 JUROR NO. 20: Uh-huh. 2 MR. STOPHER: Does he own those to hunt or to -- 3 JUROR NO. 20: Yes. 4 MR. STOPHER: Or for self protection or some of 5 both? 6 JUROR NO. 20: The handgun, I'm sure he thought 7 of it as protection, but I made him lock it in a gun cabinet 8 so... 9 MR. STOPHER: He doesn't use these for sharp- 10 shooting operations and that sort of thing, competitions and 11 so forth? 12 JUROR NO. 20: No, sir. No, sir. No. 13 MR. STOPHER: You indicated that you have 14 watched a television show about Prozac, and you mentioned here 15 something about prescribing the drug to a town? 16 JUROR NO. 20: That's all I can remember about 17 it. And it was probably just right after the Wesbecker, you 18 know, incident, so I really don't remember anything but just 19 that. 20 MR. STOPHER: Did it cause you to form any 21 opinions that the drug is safe or unsafe? 22 JUROR NO. 20: No. 23 MR. STOPHER: You were living here at the time 24 that this incident occurred? 25 JUROR NO. 20: Uh-huh. 231 1 MR. STOPHER: And I would assume that you've 2 read a good many things through the years and seen a good many 3 things about the incident and about Joseph Wesbecker; correct? 4 JUROR NO. 20: Yes, sir. 5 MR. STOPHER: Have you formed any opinions about 6 what caused him to do this? 7 JUROR NO. 20: No, sir. 8 MR. STOPHER: Have you ever talked to anybody 9 that has any information about that day or about him or about 10 what caused him to do it? 11 JUROR NO. 20: No, sir. 12 MR. STOPHER: Ms. Morrison, if you were in our 13 shoes and trying to pick jurors who would be fair and who 14 would not take anything into the jury room in the way of 15 information or an experience or an idea or a preconceived idea 16 about who ought to prevail and what caused him to do this, is 17 there anything that you know about yourself that you think 18 maybe you shouldn't be sitting as a juror if you were in our 19 shoes? 20 JUROR NO. 20: I don't believe -- no, sir. 21 MR. STOPHER: You think you can decide the case 22 based only on the evidence, on what you hear? 23 JUROR NO. 20: Yes, sir. Uh-huh. 24 MR. STOPHER: Okay. Thank you, Ms. Morrison. 25 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Mr. Smith? 232 1 MR. SMITH: You have a college degree in 2 chemistry? 3 JUROR NO. 20: Yes, sir. 4 MR. SMITH: What part of it is bio -- is it 5 organic and inorganic? 6 JUROR NO. 20: It's organic and physical 7 chemistry. It's not any biochemistry at all. 8 MR. SMITH: There's going to be testimony about 9 biochemistry and serotonin reuptake inhibitors and things of 10 that nature. Do you have a particularized knowledge about 11 that? 12 JUROR NO. 20: Just a kind of general knowledge 13 about what neurons are and things like that, but not anything 14 specific. 15 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Ms. Morrison. 16 JUDGE POTTER: I'm going to excuse you till 9:00 17 tomorrow morning, and if you'll come back and be in the 18 assembly hall where you first started out at 9:00. I'm going 19 to remind you of my admonition. Do not allow anybody to talk 20 with you about this case or attempt to talk to you, including 21 other jurors, and any attempt to do so should be reported to 22 me. Don't get any information from the press, newspaper or 23 television. Don't form any opinions until it is finally 24 submitted to you. See you tomorrow at nine. 25 How are you, Ms. Murphy? 233 1 JUROR NO. 12: Fine. Nervous. 2 MR. FREEMAN: We're not going to get you. 3 JUDGE POTTER: That's all right. I want to 4 remind you that you're still under oath, and these gentlemen 5 may want to ask you some questions. 6 Mr. Smith? 7 MR. SMITH: Hold on, let me turn to the real 8 hard questions. What is For Kids Only, just a children's toy 9 store? 10 JUROR NO. 12: It's a consignment shop for 11 children. 12 MR. SMITH: Is that where -- 13 JUROR NO. 12: People bring in their clothes and 14 then we resell them. 15 MR. SMITH: It's children's clothing as opposed 16 to toys? 17 JUROR NO. 12: Uh-huh. Yes. 18 MR. SMITH: And your husband is a driver for 19 UPS? 20 JUROR NO. 12: Uh-huh. 21 MR. SMITH: It doesn't appear that you've had 22 any experience with Prozac or with depression; is that right? 23 JUROR NO. 12: No. Not at all. 24 MR. SMITH: Do you have any opinion concerning 25 the cause of Mr. Wesbecker's actions on September 14th, 1989? 234 1 JUROR NO. 12: I don't know much about it other 2 than what was shown on TV, and still I don't know much about 3 it. 4 MR. SMITH: It looks like you have some 5 kinfolks, third cousin, who's a deputy sheriff? 6 JUROR NO. 12: Uh-huh. 7 MR. SMITH: How could you remember that far back 8 to a third cousin? 9 JUROR NO. 12: He's been adopted, so first 10 cousin by marriage but third cousin by blood. 11 MR. SMITH: Have you had any discussion with him 12 concerning this? 13 JUROR NO. 12: No. I see him once every six 14 months. 15 MR. SMITH: Do you know of any reason why you 16 couldn't be a fair and impartial juror in this case? 17 JUROR NO. 12: (Shakes head negatively). 18 MR. SMITH: Thank you. 19 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher? 20 MR. STOPHER: Ms. Murphy, I notice that your 21 husband and father are both hunters and I think you said own 22 rifles and pistols? 23 JUROR NO. 12: I don't know the names. 24 MR. STOPHER: Without asking you the names, let 25 me ask you the types. Do they own any assault rifles and 235 1 specifically the AK-47? 2 JUROR NO. 12: Okay. No. I have a 3 three-year-old son. No. 4 MR. STOPHER: Okay. Thanks a lot. 5 JUDGE POTTER: We're going to stand in recess 6 until 9:00 tomorrow morning as far as you're concerned. These 7 people are going to come after you. Would you be back in the 8 jury pool assembly hall where you started out at 9:00 tomorrow 9 morning. You can leave today. I give you the same admonition 10 I've given you before. Do not permit anybody to talk or 11 communicate with you about this case, and that includes 12 picking things up with the TV and newspaper. Don't discuss it 13 or form any opinions until it is finally submitted to you. 14 JUROR NO. 12: On the consignment shop, I don't 15 have any employees. I'm the only person that works there. 16 And I didn't think I had a problem -- you had asked if I had 17 any problems. I only have a couple of friends that help me, 18 and I went back Monday and my store was closed because they 19 had to leave. And I'm afraid that if we really get into six, 20 eight weeks it may cause a problem to my business but, I mean, 21 I don't know yet. I mean, I'm still -- I'm working on that. 22 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. I tell you what. I may 23 forget to bring that topic up again with you, but if you'll 24 bring it up with me tomorrow after you know, because tomorrow 25 is probably the day the decisions will be made. 236 1 JUROR NO. 12: Okay. Okay. Thank you very 2 much. It wasn't too bad. 3 JUDGE POTTER: Did my sheriff pronounce it 4 right? 5 JUROR NO. 204: Partee. 6 JUDGE POTTER: How are you, Ms. Partee? I want 7 to remind you you're still under oath. These gentlemen may 8 want to ask you a few questions. 9 Mr. Stopher, why don't you start off. 10 MR. STOPHER: Let me ask you about, a moment, 11 your occupation, and I confess that it's either my eyes or the 12 photocopying machine. 13 JUROR NO. 204: Uh-huh. 14 MR. STOPHER: It looks like you're a community 15 organizer for -- 16 JUROR NO. 204: It's Kentuckians for the 17 Commonwealth. 18 MR. STOPHER: What sort of organization is that? 19 JUROR NO. 204: It's a nonprofit social justice 20 organization. 21 MR. STOPHER: And you do that work in 22 Prestonsburg? 23 JUROR NO. 204: No. Here in Louisville. That's 24 our main office in Prestonsburg. 25 MR. STOPHER: Oh, I see. Okay. And it is 237 1 Kentuckians for the Commonwealth? And what sort of work do 2 you do there as a community organizer? 3 JUROR NO. 204: It's a citizens group and I'm an 4 organizer for that, and I help people to strategize and figure 5 out what the problems are in their communities and work with 6 them on that. 7 MR. STOPHER: What sort of problems do you work 8 on? 9 JUROR NO. 204: Different problems. We're a 10 statewide organization. In eastern Kentucky some of the 11 chapters out there are working on landowner rights. 12 MR. STOPHER: Broad form deed-type issues? 13 JUROR NO. 204: Right. If you're familiar with 14 the Broad Form Deed Amendment of 1988, it was our organization 15 that worked on that. 16 MR. STOPHER: All right. What sort of issues 17 are you personally involved in? 18 JUROR NO. 204: Here in Louisville we work on 19 utility reform specifically. 20 MR. STOPHER: And your husband apparently works 21 at Fetter Printing Company? 22 JUROR NO. 204: Right. 23 MR. STOPHER: And he's worked there for about 24 four years? 25 JUROR NO. 204: Uh-huh. 238 1 MR. STOPHER: Is he a pressman? 2 JUROR NO. 204: No. Film assembler. 3 MR. STOPHER: He works in the make-ready? 4 JUROR NO. 204: Right. Right. 5 MR. STOPHER: Okay. All right. Is he a member 6 of the union there? 7 JUROR NO. 204: No. They don't have a union 8 there. 9 MR. STOPHER: Did he work in the printing 10 industry before that? 11 JUROR NO. 204: Not really. He worked for a 12 group called Adpro. It's an advertising company. 13 MR. STOPHER: You made the statement in your -- 14 well, let me back up for just a second. You are educated as a 15 social worker and have an M.S.S.W.? 16 JUROR NO. 204: Right. 17 MR. STOPHER: And is that basically how you've 18 spent your time? 19 JUROR NO. 204: Well, I just graduated in 20 December. 21 MR. STOPHER: Oh, did you? Okay. All right. 22 So you've had this job and that's basically been it? 23 JUROR NO. 204: Right. Exactly. 24 MR. STOPHER: You made the statement that you 25 feel like the FDA is doing a satisfactory job, but like most 239 1 federal agencies responsible for consumer safety, it is too 2 lenient in terms of regulations? 3 JUROR NO. 204: Right. 4 MR. STOPHER: What -- can you tell us in more 5 detail what you mean by that? 6 JUROR NO. 204: I guess I think back to some of 7 the work that we do in eastern Kentucky. We're constantly 8 having to go before the legislature trying to increase 9 regulations on, like, the coal industry. So I guess that came 10 from that, and I was making a broad statement I suppose about 11 it. 12 MR. STOPHER: Okay. All right. In this case 13 there's going to be quite an issue as to whether or not the 14 FDA appropriately approved Prozac under appropriate conditions 15 and terms. Does your philosophy that you think that most 16 federal agencies are too lenient, will that influence your 17 opinion about whether or not the FDA acted appropriately in 18 this case? 19 JUROR NO. 204: It could. I guess that's the 20 best answer that I could give. I tend to feel that government 21 is not -- does not regulate enough, so I don't know, maybe 22 that could influence in some way. 23 MR. STOPHER: It's certainly a philosophy and an 24 opinion that you hold now and you're not likely to change that 25 opinion in the near future; am I correct about that? 240 1 JUROR NO. 204: That's probably correct. 2 MR. STOPHER: Okay. You also gave a couple of 3 other answers that I wanted you to give us some information 4 about. You indicated -- and I don't want to pry into your 5 family any more than you want me to pry, but I think you 6 understand the reason why -- that your spouse, your husband, 7 has depression and has taken some prescription medications for 8 that? 9 JUROR NO. 204: Had. 10 MR. STOPHER: Had. I apologize. 11 JUROR NO. 204: Right. 12 MR. STOPHER: And apparently it was in the 13 summer of '89. I now see the next line of the answer. Did he 14 have a good or a bad experience in the treatment of his 15 depression? 16 JUROR NO. 204: Good. Good. He speaks 17 positively about it. 18 MR. STOPHER: I take it you weren't married at 19 that time? 20 JUROR NO. 204: Right. Right. 21 MR. STOPHER: So it was something that he told 22 you about perhaps even before you knew him? 23 JUROR NO. 204: No. We were friends at the 24 time. 25 MR. STOPHER: All right. But nothing about that 241 1 impacts your opinion about antidepressants in general or 2 reactions to drugs or anything like that? 3 JUROR NO. 204: No. 4 MR. STOPHER: He apparently took Lithium; am I 5 correct? 6 JUROR NO. 204: Uh-huh. 7 MR. STOPHER: All right. Ms. -- let's see if I 8 can get the right question in here for just a second. 9 Apparently, the only gun he owns, Ms. Partee, is an old muzzle 10 loader? 11 JUROR NO. 204: Right. For looks. 12 MR. STOPHER: No assault rifles in his closet? 13 JUROR NO. 204: No. 14 MR. STOPHER: You indicated that you have no 15 opinion about the Standard Gravure shootings and why Mr. 16 Wesbecker did what he did. 17 JUROR NO. 204: Uh-huh. 18 MR. STOPHER: If you hear evidence that the FDA 19 was too lenient in approving Prozac, would you tend now to 20 believe that that evidence must be true based on your past 21 experience? 22 JUROR NO. 204: Could you repeat it? 23 MR. STOPHER: Yes. If you hear evidence that 24 the FDA was too lenient in its approach and its approval of 25 Prozac, would you tend to believe that that evidence was 242 1 accurate and truthful based on some of the experiences that 2 you've had in the past? 3 JUROR NO. 204: Probably. 4 MR. STOPHER: Do you think you may carry that 5 opinion into the jury room in deciding this case? 6 JUROR NO. 204: It's hard to keep those kinds of 7 opinions -- to be objective about, I think, when you hold 8 something that strongly, so I would probably have to say it 9 would probably be with me even if I tried to be more objective 10 about it. 11 MR. STOPHER: I take it that that's a pretty 12 strong opinion, to use your words? 13 JUROR NO. 204: Uh-huh. 14 MR. STOPHER: Is that a fair statement? 15 JUROR NO. 204: Uh-huh. Yes. 16 MR. STOPHER: As opposed to just an opinion that 17 you just happened to form; is that a fair statement? 18 JUROR NO. 204: Yes. I think so. 19 MR. STOPHER: Okay. All right. If that 20 approval by the FDA is an issue in this case, I take it in all 21 fairness what you're saying is that your strong opinion about 22 those matters will affect your judgment in the case? 23 JUROR NO. 204: I think so, to be totally 24 honest. 25 MR. STOPHER: Okay. Thank you, Ms. Partee. 243 1 JUDGE POTTER: Wait just a second, ma'am. 2 Mr. Smith? 3 MR. SMITH: Ms. Partee, Prozac has been approved 4 by the FDA and was approved by the FDA in 1989. Do you know 5 anything about the Food and Drug Administration approval 6 process? 7 JUROR NO. 204: No. 8 MR. SMITH: Would you listen to the evidence in 9 connection with the FDA approval process in making a 10 determination whether or not the approval was too lenient or 11 too stringent even? 12 JUROR NO. 204: Sure. 13 MR. SMITH: You don't know anything about how 14 the FDA approved Prozac here, do you? 15 JUROR NO. 204: No. 16 MR. SMITH: And have you prejudged Prozac based 17 on some opinion that you might have about the FDA in this 18 case? 19 JUROR NO. 204: No, I don't think so. 20 MR. SMITH: Have you had any dealings with the 21 Food and Drug Administration at all? 22 JUROR NO. 204: No. 23 MR. SMITH: Even in this eastern Kentucky coal 24 mining deal, that really wasn't a Food and Drug Administration 25 drug approval issue, was it? 244 1 JUROR NO. 204: No. 2 MR. SMITH: So your opinions that you say are 3 strong in connection with FDA being too lenient really doesn't 4 have anything to do with the drug approval process at all, 5 does it? 6 JUROR NO. 204: No. 7 MR. SMITH: So because this is FDA approval of a 8 prescription product which you haven't heard any evidence, can 9 we assume you'll be fair with all parties in making a 10 determination of the case? 11 JUROR NO. 204: Since you put it that way, yes. 12 MR. SMITH: Well, I'm not trying to mislead you. 13 Actually Mr. Stopher wanted to take you one way, I'm trying to 14 take you another way; hopefully, the Judge will be able to see 15 through both of us. But my point is, is will you judge this 16 case based on the facts in that courtroom other than -- and 17 set aside your judgment or any opinions you might have about 18 the FDA earlier? 19 JUROR NO. 204: Yes. 20 MR. SMITH: All right. 21 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Ms. Partee, I'm going 22 to -- as far as you're concerned we'll stand in recess till 23 9:00 tomorrow morning. If you will be in that jury assembly 24 area at 9:00 in the morning. I'm going to give you the same 25 admonition I've given you before. Don't let anybody 245 1 communicate with you about this case, and that includes 2 getting information from the newspaper, TV or radio or 3 whatever, and don't discuss it with your other jurors and do 4 not form or express opinions about it. Okay. See you at 5 9:00. 6 Go ahead, Mr. Stopher, or do you have anything? 7 MR. STOPHER: Yes. I was just waiting for the 8 door, Judge. We make a motion to exclude Ms. Partee. 9 JUDGE POTTER: What do you say, Mr. Smith? 10 MR. SMITH: She's testified that she doesn't 11 have knowlege of FDA approval procedures and that, in fact, 12 any FDA leanings she might have she could put aside, even if 13 she didn't know anything about approval with this drug. I 14 think it's clear that she was confused in her opinions about 15 the FDA and she's talking about some eastern Kentucky coal 16 mine issue. And I think she clearly stated that even if she 17 did have any prejudice that she could base this case -- her 18 verdict in this case on what she hears in this case. 19 MR. STOPHER: Judge, she said that she has a 20 strong opinion about all federal agencies and she said that 21 that would influence her opinion in this case as to whether or 22 not the FDA approved Prozac appropriately or inappropriately, 23 and I also heard her admit that she would take that opinion 24 into the jury room. Then as she said, "Well, when you phrase 25 it that way, I'm going to answer it somewhat differently," I 246 1 think it goes back to some of the others that have been 2 stricken for cause who do have strong opinions and who say 3 they're going to take them into the jury room. The FDA's 4 action here is going to be the very heart of Mr. Smith's case 5 and she's got an opinion about that. 6 MR. SMITH: Not the heart of my case; it better 7 be the heart of your case. 8 JUDGE POTTER: I was thinking about it while she 9 was there, and actually in a purely technical sense, whether 10 they did a good job or a bad job, really very technical sense, 11 is not an issue in this case. They could have done a lousy 12 job and you-all still made a good drug and you're off. They 13 could have done a wonderful job and you made a lousy drug and 14 you're in trouble. I mean, phrasing it very -- not very 15 artfully. 16 You know, she just is telling you that she has a 17 stand on one issue that's going to come up in this case that 18 is a little higher than the average person. And, you know, 19 there are an awful lot of people who filled out this 20 questionnaire that they think the Food and Drug Administration 21 does a good job or a really wonderful job or something like 22 that, so I'm going to deny the motion to excuse her for cause. 23 You're Mr. Paul Peck, No. 126. Do you want to 24 have a seat. I'll remind you you're still under oath. These 25 gentlemen may want to ask you a few questions. 247 1 Mr. Smith, why don't you start? 2 MR. SMITH: Mr. Peck, in looking at your 3 questionnaire you might have changed -- turned two pages 4 instead of one and we've got a page that at least our copy 5 isn't filled out on, 19, 20, and 21. 19 asks: "Have you or 6 someone that you know had an unpleasant experience while 7 taking Prozac?" 8 JUROR NO. 126: No. 9 MR. SMITH: 20 asks: "Do you believe that 10 Prozac is unsafe to use with depressed patients?" 11 JUROR NO. 126: I don't know that much about it, 12 so I wouldn't be able to -- 13 MR. SMITH: So your answer would be don't know? 14 JUROR NO. 126: Don't know. 15 MR. SMITH: Did you just miss this page? 16 JUROR NO. 126: Evidently I did. 17 MR. SMITH: Probably turned two pages at once. 18 I do that all the time. Have you or someone you know ever had 19 a bad experience while taking a prescription drug for 20 depression? 21 JUROR NO. 126: No. 22 MR. SMITH: Do you have any opinion whatsoever 23 concerning the cause of Mr. Wesbecker's conduct on September 24 14th, 1989? 25 JUROR NO. 126: No. Not really. 248 1 MR. SMITH: Do you know of any reason, Mr. Peck, 2 why you can't be a fair and impartial juror in this case? 3 JUROR NO. 126: Not really. 4 MR. SMITH: Thank you, sir. 5 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher? 6 MR. STOPHER: Is there something that's nagging 7 at you there a little bit? You seemed to hesitate in 8 answering that question. 9 JUROR NO. 126: Well, I was thinking about it, 10 you know. Nothing comes to mind that I know of right now. 11 MR. STOPHER: You indicated to us yesterday or 12 the day before, sir, that you went to school with James 13 Husband? 14 JUROR NO. 126: Yes. 15 MR. STOPHER: And was that grade school? 16 JUROR NO. 126: It was junior high school, 7th 17 through 9th. 18 MR. STOPHER: You told us that. I apologize. 19 Was he a friend of yours, sir? 20 JUROR NO. 126: Somewhat. We didn't run 21 together or nothing like that but he was a classmate. 22 MR. STOPHER: Yeah. You know the daughter of 23 Mrs. Fentress? 24 JUROR NO. 126: Yes. 25 MR. STOPHER: And the daughter of now deceased 249 1 Kenneth Fentress; correct? 2 JUROR NO. 126: It's either Melissa or Missy 3 Fentress. She and my daughters were on the same cheerleading 4 squad at Pleasure Ridge Park High School. Knew her quite -- I 5 had a van, so I used to take them to cheerleading camps and 6 things like that. I didn't know the father and wasn't too 7 well acquainted with the mother, but I did know Missy. 8 MR. STOPHER: You understand that this is a 9 tragedy that affects her? 10 JUROR NO. 126: Yes. Yeah. 11 MR. STOPHER: And your friendship with her and 12 your feelings for Missy, or Melissa, is that going to tug at 13 you a bit? 14 JUROR NO. 126: Somewhat. Somewhat. 15 MR. STOPHER: Would the same also be true with 16 regard to Mr. Husband? I know it was a long time ago, but 17 I've got a lot of people I went to high school and junior high 18 school with that -- 19 JUROR NO. 126: No. Evidently he come out of 20 high school and went to work for Standard right after high 21 school. I hadn't seen him since school days so I come out of 22 high school and went to the army for nine years, so I hadn't 23 seen him. The only reference I had to him was whenever the 24 killings did take place and I noticed his name. 25 MR. STOPHER: Yeah. Mr. Peck, in all fairness, 250 1 given the relationship that you have with Missy and Melissa, 2 the Fentress family, do you think you're going to be able to 3 divorce yourself completely from the sympathy that you must 4 feel for them and their family as a result of this tragedy? 5 MR. SMITH: We object to the question as 6 implying he must divorce himself completely from all emotional 7 ties. 8 JUDGE POTTER: Let him ask the question, see 9 what he says, and then you can ask another question if you 10 want, Mr. Smith. 11 You can go ahead and answer the question the 12 best you can, sir. 13 JUROR NO. 126: The best I could say is I have 14 an affinity for young ladies and for youngsters, I worked with 15 them 18 years in Valley Sports Little League and with the 16 Booster Club, so it would be tough. Just like I couldn't 17 recollect how much -- how long it had been. Come to find out 18 it's been over ten years and I just went through the first 19 time and didn't even recognize her, but I waited till the 20 Judge had gotten in between something before I said that I had 21 known her. I haven't followed her whereabouts since then, 22 but -- in fact, I hadn't even thought about this case until I 23 got the jury deal. 24 MR. STOPHER: I understand, sir. 25 JUROR NO. 126: But I will try to be fair, you 251 1 know. But to answer that question I don't think I could 2 truthfully say yea or nay, you know. 3 MR. STOPHER: You indicated, sir, that you have 4 seen some paper and TV reports of the Wesbecker case? 5 JUROR NO. 126: Yes. 6 MR. STOPHER: Do you have an opinion as to 7 whether or not Prozac played a role in Mr. Wesbecker's 8 activities on that date? 9 JUROR NO. 126: I don't really know. I didn't 10 form an opinion. He had problems before that, from what I 11 surmise. See, I deliver this area for a trucking company and 12 I was downtown at the time, so, you know, other than what I 13 heard on the news and stuff, that's the only recollection I 14 have of it. I thought it was quite tragic. 15 MR. STOPHER: I agree with you, sir. In trying 16 to pick jurors, though, in this case who are fair and 17 impartial and who don't have ties or connections, do you feel 18 that your connections with the Fentress family are such that 19 maybe you'd be better off not sitting in this case, sir? 20 JUROR NO. 126: I think so. I really do. 21 MR. STOPHER: I thank you, sir. 22 JUDGE POTTER: Let me ask you one question, Mr. 23 Peck. 24 JUROR NO. 126: Can I state one other thing? 25 JUDGE POTTER: Yes. 252 1 JUROR NO. 126: If I am chosen to it, I would 2 give it my best shot. 3 MR. STOPHER: I understand that you would do 4 that, sir. 5 JUROR NO. 126: But it would be difficult. 6 JUDGE POTTER: That's what I was going to ask 7 you. You said -- I forget what your last phrase was where you 8 thought you didn't want to be on this case, whatever your last 9 phrase was, I was going to ask you why you said that. I think 10 you did. 11 JUROR NO. 126: Yes, sir. 12 JUDGE POTTER: And it would be difficult just 13 because of the kind of case it is or you think it would be 14 extra difficult for you because you knew some of the people 15 some time ago? 16 JUROR NO. 126: Probably knowing the Fentress 17 girl would make it difficult. 18 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Anybody else have any very 19 quick questions of Mr. Peck? 20 MR. SMITH: Do you think you could do it? 21 JUROR NO. 126: I think I could. 22 MR. SMITH: And do a good job of it? 23 JUROR NO. 126: But knowing for certainty, I 24 couldn't say, I don't think. 25 JUDGE POTTER: I'm going to take a recess till 253 1 9:00 tomorrow morning for you. If you would be at the jury 2 pool room where you were at 9:00 in the morning. Same 3 admonition as before. Do not speak with anyone about this 4 case and do not permit anyone to speak with you about this 5 trial, and that includes no information from the TV or 6 newspaper. Do not talk to any other jurors or form or express 7 opinions about it. See you at 9:00. 8 JUROR NO. 126: Thank you. 9 MR. STOPHER: Make a motion to exclude, Judge. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith, what do you want to 11 say? 12 MR. SMITH: I don't think he's disqualified as a 13 matter of law to serve on the jury. His association with the 14 plaintiffs goes back -- 15 JUDGE POTTER: Well, forget Mr. Husband. I 16 couldn't hear him. How long was his daughter and the Fentress 17 daughter together? 18 MR. SMITH: I think ten years ago. 19 JUDGE POTTER: I thought that because I'm 20 looking at his children. 21 JUDGE POTTER: I'm going to deny the motion to 22 excuse him for cause. We're talking about one association 23 that's got to be 40 years ago -- no, 30 years ago and one 24 that's 10 years ago. And I don't want to think about 25 practicing in Jefferson County -- one thing about practicing 254 1 here in Jefferson County, out in the state they practically 2 let people's relatives sit on the jury. So when you read the 3 cases, they indicate that it's got to be a pretty strong kind 4 of thing. 5 MR. STOPHER: Judge, our position on that is 6 that he said several times it would be difficult for him to 7 decide this case. 8 JUDGE POTTER: Uh-huh. 9 How are you, Ms. Pope? Would you have a seat, 10 please, ma'am. I remind you you're still under oath. You 11 want to answer some questions these gentlemen may have for 12 you. And, Mr. Stopher, why don't you start out. 13 MR. STOPHER: Ms. Pope, I'm Ed Stopher. Let me 14 ask you a few questions about the long questionnaire that you 15 filled out, if I might, for just a moment. You've lived here 16 for 30 some-odd years. 17 JUROR NO. 23: Thirty-nine. 18 MR. STOPHER: And if I understand correctly you 19 were living here at the time of the shootings that occurred in 20 September of 1989? 21 JUROR NO. 23: Yes. 22 MR. STOPHER: I would assume that, like 23 everybody else, you remember that day and the news coverage of 24 what occurred. Have you formed any opinions about those 25 events and does that affect your ability to sit in this case? 255 1 JUROR NO. 23: No. I don't think so. I do have 2 an employee at work that her husband was in this and I just 3 remembered that day a lot of phone calls but, you know, it was 4 never really talked about at work. 5 MR. STOPHER: Who is that employee or her 6 husband? 7 JUROR NO. 23: Mike Kelly was his name. 8 MR. STOPHER: And was he an employee at Standard 9 Gravure? 10 JUROR NO. 23: Yes. He was there that day. He 11 just happened to be on the other side of the partition. He 12 was right around where Mr. Campbell got shot. 13 MR. STOPHER: Did you know Mike Kelly himself or 14 just his spouse? 15 JUROR NO. 23: I just know his wife -- well, she 16 is his ex-wife. 17 MR. STOPHER: And are you still connected with 18 her? 19 JUROR NO. 23: Oh, yes. I see her daily. 20 MR. STOPHER: But she's no longer married to Mr. 21 Kelly? 22 JUROR NO. 23: No. For many years. 23 MR. STOPHER: Did he give her information and 24 did she give you information? 25 JUROR NO. 23: They have children together so 256 1 they were more or less just relaying, making sure he was okay 2 with the phone calls but, other than to actually sit down and 3 talk to her about anything, I don't think he ever did and I 4 wasn't really interested. 5 MR. STOPHER: Okay. All right. Same line of 6 questions, Ms. Pope, with regard to Prozac. Do you have any 7 information about Prozac or about antidepressants in general? 8 JUROR NO. 23: To the best of my knowledge, I 9 know no one who has taken Prozac or any other type of 10 antidepressant. 11 MR. STOPHER: Your husband is a postal carrier 12 in Jeffersonville? 13 JUROR NO. 23: Jeffersonville. 14 MR. STOPHER: And he's just been employed there 15 for a couple of years? 16 JUROR NO. 23: Right. 17 MR. STOPHER: What did he do before that? 18 JUROR NO. 23: Isn't this awful? I can't even 19 think. 20 MR. SMITH: He probably doesn't know your 21 birthday, either. 22 JUROR NO. 23: Isn't that awful I can't think. 23 He worked at Jeffboat for 14 years. 24 MR. STOPHER: Did he? Okay. I guess what I 25 was really trying to get at is did he ever work in the 257 1 printing industry in any way? 2 JUROR NO. 23: No. No. 3 MR. STOPHER: And I assume he obviously never 4 worked at Standard Gravure for that reason. 5 JUROR NO. 23: No. 6 MR. STOPHER: Thank you, Ms. Pope. 7 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith, do you have any 8 questions? 9 MR. SMITH: Your husband works for the United 10 States Post Office and there has been a couple, at least, 11 tragedies involving postal workers coming into the post 12 offices and doing things somewhat similar to what occurred 13 here in Louisville. Have you or your husband ever discussed 14 this issue? 15 JUROR NO. 23: No. 16 MR. SMITH: Do you have any opinions about 17 whether or not any of that should be related to any of this 18 here, what we're working on this next few weeks? 19 JUROR NO. 23: No. 20 MR. SMITH: You say in answer to Question 5 that 21 you think that the FDA does a superb job in keeping us safe. 22 Do you have any particular knowledge about that? 23 JUROR NO. 23: No. I don't. I was just -- with 24 all the foods that are out there and all the drugs that are 25 available, I am not much on reading the newspaper, I am not 258 1 much on watching the news, but I just haven't heard that much 2 about any major problems since the Tylenol scare, and that was 3 the last I remember hearing anything. 4 MR. SMITH: You say that you read all warnings 5 and dosage labels on everything. Are you talking about labels 6 that are taped to your medicine when you get medicine? 7 JUROR NO. 23: Right. Aspirin bottles, 8 anything. 9 MR. SMITH: Even if you buy a prescription 10 medicine? 11 JUROR NO. 23: Uh-huh. 12 MR. SMITH: Do you take antibiotics on occasion 13 or do you take medicines for any reason? I know you hadn't 14 had any experience with antidepressant medication. 15 JUROR NO. 23: I'll take an aspirin if I need 16 one or whatever is prescribed to me by a doctor, but, no, I 17 don't like taking anything. 18 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Ms. Pope. 19 JUDGE POTTER: Ms. Pope, I'm going to excuse you 20 till 9:00 tomorrow morning. If you'll be over at the jury 21 pool I can promise you we won't keep you till 5:00 till we get 22 to you. 23 JUROR NO. 23: I'd like to say something else. 24 JUDGE POTTER: Sure. Go ahead. 25 JUROR NO. 23: I would be more than happy to 259 1 serve on this jury but I have a baby-sitter problem. Monday 2 while I was here my baby-sitter fell and broke her arm, and I 3 am killing myself trying to get a baby-sitter on a daily 4 basis. 5 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Why don't you -- I mean, 6 you have a baby-sitter normally when you're working; right? 7 JUROR NO. 23: Oh, yes. 8 JUDGE POTTER: So hopefully in the next day or 9 two, you'll have made other arrangements; is that right? 10 JUROR NO. 23: I'm working on it. 11 JUDGE POTTER: If for some reason you think you 12 won't be able to sort it out in the next day or two, why don't 13 you bring it up tomorrow morning with me. 14 JUROR NO. 23: Okay. 15 JUDGE POTTER: First of all, 9:00 back where you 16 started today at 9:00. Same admonition. Don't talk to 17 anybody about this case, don't let anybody talk to you, don't 18 pick up any information from the TV or newspaper, and don't 19 discuss it with your other jurors. Okay? 20 JUROR NO. 23: Okay. 21 JUDGE POTTER: See you at 9:00. 22 (OFF THE RECORD) 23 JUDGE POTTER: Would you ask Ms. Pope to step 24 back in? Ms. Pope, we just happened to notice here, how many 25 children do you have? 260 1 JUROR NO. 23: I have two, but this is my 2 grandbaby. I'm sorry I didn't get that out. I have custody 3 of her because Mama's a young one. 4 JUDGE POTTER: I wanted to make sure I 5 understood that. 6 JUROR NO. 23: I'm sorry. 7 JUDGE POTTER: That's okay. No. You've got two 8 children and everything was correct. We'll see you in the 9 morning. At least you know we read these things; right? 10 JUROR NO. 23: Right. 11 JUDGE POTTER: You're Ms. Selby; right? 12 JUROR NO. 113: Yes, sir. 13 JUROR NO. 113: Are you a calligrapher? 14 JUROR NO. 113: No. 15 JUDGE POTTER: You have very good writing. 16 JUROR NO. 113: Thank you. 17 JUDGE POTTER: And I want to remind you you're 18 still under oath. Some of these gentlemen might want to ask 19 you some questions. 20 Mr. Smith? 21 MR. SMITH: In answer to Question 6, Ms. Selby, 22 you mentioned that a pamphlet almost always is enclosed with 23 your medication stating risk? 24 JUROR NO. 113: Right. 25 MR. SMITH: Are you talking about something 261 1 that's stuffed in the bottle? 2 JUROR NO. 113: Yes. 3 MR. SMITH: And what's your opinion as to where 4 that comes from? 5 JUROR NO. 113: In the box. And if it isn't 6 there I usually ask for it if I haven't taken the medication 7 before. 8 MR. SMITH: So if a doctor prescribes you 9 medicine and you go to the pharmacy, if it's not given to you, 10 you will ask the pharmacist for the package insert? 11 JUROR NO. 113: Yes. 12 MR. SMITH: And that's a folded-up long thing 13 that comes out about like that; is that right? 14 JUROR NO. 113: Yes. 15 MR. SMITH: And it's your practice to read 16 those? 17 JUROR NO. 113: Yes. 18 MR. SMITH: Why? 19 JUROR NO. 113: I'm interested. I mean, if it's 20 going into my body, I want to know about it. 21 MR. SMITH: You were a secretary for a CPA; is 22 that right? 23 JUROR NO. 113: That's right. 24 MR. SMITH: And how long have you been in that 25 capacity? 262 1 JUROR NO. 113: Two years. 2 MR. SMITH: And before you did that what did you 3 do? 4 JUROR NO. 113: I worked for a long distance 5 telephone company, data processing, worked with a 6 telemarketing department. 7 MR. SMITH: And is your husband a doctor of 8 optometry? 9 JUROR NO. 113: No. He sells glasses. 10 MR. SMITH: Is he a licensed optician? 11 JUROR NO. 113: Yes. 12 MR. SMITH: Do you have to be licensed to do 13 that in Kentucky? 14 JUROR NO. 113: Uh-huh. 15 MR. SMITH: You have been depressed, apparently, 16 but have not sought medical attention for that? 17 JUROR NO. 113: Well, our minister counsels 18 people, and I sought help from him. 19 MR. SMITH: And has that -- has your depression 20 been relieved? 21 JUROR NO. 113: Yes. 22 MR. SMITH: All right. I think that's all I 23 have, Ms. Selby. Thank you. 24 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher may have some 25 questions. 263 1 MR. STOPHER: No questions. Thank you, Ms. 2 Selby. 3 JUDGE POTTER: Let me say one thing to you 4 before you leave. I'm going to ask you to be in the jury 5 assembly area at 9:00 tomorrow morning. Over the evening's 6 recess, don't talk to anybody about this case, don't let 7 anybody talk to you about it, don't pick up any information 8 from the TV or the newspaper. Don't talk to your other jurors 9 or form or express opinions about it. We'll see you at 9:00 10 tomorrow morning. 11 Okay. Do you want to have a seat, Ms. 12 Whitehouse. 13 JUROR NO. 222: Thank you. Then like everybody 14 else, I'm a nervous wreck. 15 JUDGE POTTER: Why are you a nervous wreck? 16 MS. ZETTLER: No reason. 17 JUDGE POTTER: If you'll just relax, this won't 18 take very long. I'll remind you you're still under oath. 19 Mr. Stopher? 20 MR. STOPHER: Ms. Whitehouse, let me ask you 21 just a couple of questions. If I understand correctly, your 22 husband is -- 23 JUROR NO. 222: A former employee. 24 MR. STOPHER: And is retired from Standard 25 Gravure? 264 1 JUROR NO. 222: Yes. 2 MR. STOPHER: Is he still getting pension 3 payments from them? 4 JUROR NO. 222: Yes. Yes. 5 MR. STOPHER: And does he still go down there 6 from time to time or did he go up until they closed to see how 7 things were going or anything like that? 8 JUROR NO. 222: No. 9 MR. STOPHER: After he was out, he was out? 10 JUROR NO. 222: Right. 11 MR. STOPHER: All right. Ms. Whitehouse, in 12 this case there's going to be an issue as to whether or not 13 Standard Gravure had some responsibility or responsibility in 14 general in connection with Mr. Wesbecker's actions. 15 JUROR NO. 222: Yes. 16 MR. STOPHER: The fact that your husband is 17 still receiving money from Standard Gravure in the form of a 18 pension plan, which he deserves, will that impact your 19 decision about whether or not Standard Gravure should be held 20 responsible in any degree? 21 JUROR NO. 222: I think it might. 22 MR. STOPHER: Do you think that you can put that 23 out of your mind or do you think that will enter into your 24 mind in deciding the case? 25 JUROR NO. 222: I really think it would enter 265 1 into my mind. 2 MR. STOPHER: Did he have a good experience 3 working there? 4 JUROR NO. 222: Oh, yes. 5 MR. STOPHER: He loved it? 6 JUROR NO. 222: Yes. 7 MR. STOPHER: And that was back when the 8 Binghams owned the company? 9 JUROR NO. 222: Yes. He was a rotophotographer. 10 MR. STOPHER: And in spite of what you hear and 11 in spite of what the admonitions are, you think that financial 12 interest may impact your opinion or your verdict in the case? 13 JUROR NO. 222: What do you mean? What 14 financial? 15 MR. STOPHER: Your husband's payments. Do you 16 think that's going to influence your verdict here? 17 JUROR NO. 222: No. 18 MR. STOPHER: No. Okay. I misunderstood you. 19 I thought you said it would. 20 JUROR NO. 222: Well, I'm a little confused now. 21 JUDGE POTTER: Let's take a deep breath. 22 MR. STOPHER: Maybe we both are. 23 JUDGE POTTER: It's been a long day, ma'am. 24 MR. STOPHER: Let me try again. What I was 25 trying to find out is would the fact that your husband is 266 1 still receiving money from Standard Gravure, would that tend 2 to influence your decision as to whether or not Standard 3 Gravure was responsible in some way for what Mr. Wesbecker 4 did? 5 JUROR NO. 222: I don't think so. 6 MR. STOPHER: In connection with your husband's 7 experience at Standard Gravure, he, as you just indicated, had 8 a good experience? 9 JUROR NO. 222: Yes. 10 MR. STOPHER: Would that make you tend to 11 believe or not believe proof that Mr. Wesbecker had a very bad 12 experience at Standard Gravure? 13 JUROR NO. 222: I don't believe that he had that 14 bad of an experience there. 15 MR. STOPHER: So you already have an opinion 16 about that? 17 JUROR NO. 222: Yes. Uh-huh. 18 MR. STOPHER: Is that an opinion that you may 19 carry into the jury room with you? 20 JUROR NO. 222: I believe I would. 21 MR. STOPHER: Was your husband still employed 22 there in 1971? 23 JUROR NO. 222: Yes. He retired in '78. 24 MR. STOPHER: Okay. Mr. Wesbecker began work 25 there in 1971 and worked there and worked through 1978. Has 267 1 your husband ever mentioned that he knew him? 2 JUROR NO. 222: Yes. 3 MR. STOPHER: And has he ever told you things 4 about Mr. Wesbecker? 5 JUROR NO. 222: No, not too much that I can 6 remember. 7 MR. STOPHER: All right. But if I understand 8 correctly, based on your husband's experience at Standard 9 Gravure, you might have some difficulty deciding against 10 Standard Gravure? 11 JUROR NO. 222: Yes, I would. 12 MR. STOPHER: Okay. Do we -- do you understand 13 what I'm asking now and we're clear about what the position 14 is? 15 JUROR NO. 222: Yes. Uh-huh. 16 MR. STOPHER: All right. Thank you, Ms. 17 Whitehouse. 18 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith? 19 MR. SMITH: Would you base your verdict -- of 20 course you understand that the issue here is whether or not 21 Prozac caused or contributed to Mr. Wesbecker's action. Do 22 you have any opinion on that? 23 JUROR NO. 222: Yes. 24 MR. SMITH: Okay. What's that opinion? 25 JUROR NO. 222: That everybody's systems are 268 1 different, and I don't think that one medicine would be worse 2 for another -- for one person -- well, let me start again. 3 They take the same medicine. For one person it may work 4 beautifully, for another person in his system it may not work 5 at all. 6 MR. SMITH: Does that tell you anything about 7 the safety of a drug and whether or not the manufacturer of 8 that drug is responsible in the instance where the drug in 9 that person's system that it didn't work like it was intended 10 to? 11 MR. FREEMAN: That's not what she said. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Why don't you rephrase your 13 question, Mr. Smith. 14 MR. SMITH: Well, I'm just wondering, do you 15 have -- what's your opinion about whether or not Prozac caused 16 Mr. Wesbecker to do what he did on September 14? 17 JUROR NO. 222: I don't think that it did. 18 MR. SMITH: You don't think Prozac caused him to 19 do what he did? 20 JUROR NO. 222: No. 21 MR. SMITH: All right. And do you base that on 22 anything in particular? 23 JUROR NO. 222: No. As I said, his system would 24 be different from mine. And if I took it and it had no effect 25 on me to do what he did, it's altogether different. 269 1 MR. SMITH: All right. Do you think that that 2 opinion would affect your judgment as a juror in this case? 3 JUROR NO. 222: I believe it would. 4 MR. SMITH: Okay. Thank you. 5 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Ms. Whitehouse, as far as 6 you're concerned we're going to take a recess till 9:00 7 tomorrow morning, and if you will just be in the jury pool 8 room at 9:00 tomorrow morning, you know, we'll start up again. 9 JUROR NO. 222: Okay. 10 JUDGE POTTER: And, ma'am, I also want to remind 11 you what I've told you before. Do not permit anybody to talk 12 about this case and don't go home and talk about it with your 13 husband and don't pick anything up off the TV or newspaper. 14 You can watch O. J. Simpson, but leave this one alone. Don't 15 discuss it with the other jurors or form or express any 16 opinions. 17 JUROR NO. 22: Sorry I wasn't more -- 18 JUDGE POTTER: You did fine. 19 Does anybody have any motions they want to make? 20 MR. SMITH: I think we ought to trade off on 21 that. 22 JUDGE POTTER: We got one we can agree on, Mr. 23 Stopher? 24 MR. STOPHER: Well, Judge, I don't know. You 25 know, she has opinions that cut both ways, and I'm not sure 270 1 that either one of them is a very strong opinion. I mean, 2 lots of people have given opinions today that -- I clearly 3 heard a gentleman say just a minute ago that he would have 4 trouble sitting as a juror in this case because of his 5 feelings about a plaintiff in this case. Here we have one 6 opinion for and one opinion against. And I think we ought to 7 leave her on here. It just seems to me that virtually 8 everybody has opinions and, apparently, she's got some that 9 are not strong opinions that she seems to feel one way or the 10 other, but I don't see that she's in any different category 11 than a lot of other people that have not been stricken today. 12 MR. SMITH: My only position was she seems to 13 have some difficulty in following trains of thought, and I 14 thought we could agree to let the lady go. That was the 15 reason I thought we could trade off. 16 JUDGE POTTER: Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Mr. 17 Smith, what you're saying is that you were willing to let her 18 go as a kindness, but if Mr. Stopher won't agree you don't 19 want to make a motion to excuse her for cause? 20 MR. SMITH: I haven't made a motion. I thought 21 it was one we could trade off and let the lady go. 22 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. 23 You don't know how glad everybody is to see you. 24 JUROR NO. 19: So you won't ask me any 25 questions? 271 1 MR. SMITH: You're our favorite juror. We'll 2 all tell you that right now. 3 JUROR NO. 19: That's nice. 4 JUDGE POTTER: Ms. Williams, I'm going to remind 5 you you're still under oath. These gentlemen may want to ask 6 you some questions. 7 Mr. Smith, why don't you start. 8 MR. SMITH: I notice you're married to an 9 engineer. 10 JUROR NO. 19: Right. 11 MR. SMITH: What type of engineer is he? 12 JUROR NO. 19: Right. I'm sorry. What did you 13 ask me? 14 MR. SMITH: What type of engineer is he? 15 JUROR NO. 19: Civil. 16 MR. SMITH: And Hall Contracting, what type of 17 company are they? 18 JUROR NO. 19: They do a lot of heavy equipment 19 business, you know, railroads, power plants, roads, railroads. 20 Just anything that they're asked to do, really. 21 MR. SMITH: Have you worked outside the home, 22 Ms. Williams? 23 JUROR NO. 19: I have, but, gosh, it's been 24 about 25 years. 25 MR. SMITH: What have you done -- 272 1 JUROR NO. 19: Well, not much. 2 MR. SMITH: -- before you quit taking a regular 3 paycheck? 4 JUROR NO. 19: Well, I was a -- I've been a 5 housewife all these years, but you want to know the places 6 I've worked. I've worked at J. C. Penney and I've worked at 7 Anaconda Aluminum and, let's see, is that all? I haven't 8 worked much for 33 years. I think it's about 33 years. 9 MR. SMITH: Neither have I. 10 JUROR NO. 19: Well, I wanted to stay home, you 11 know, be a good mom. 12 MR. SMITH: Me, too. Do you know of any reason, 13 Ms. Williams, why you couldn't be a fair and impartial juror 14 in this case? 15 JUROR NO. 19: Not really. 16 MR. SMITH: Do you have any preconceived ideas 17 concerning Joseph Wesbecker, whether or not Prozac contributed 18 to his actions on September 14th, 1989? 19 JUROR NO. 19: I only know what I read at the 20 time it was going on, you know. I know there was an article 21 in the paper a couple weeks ago, but I didn't read it. I had 22 no idea this was coming up. I didn't want to read it because 23 it was such a sad thing, and I had heard all I wanted to hear 24 five years ago or whenever it was, so... 25 MR. SMITH: That's all I have. Thank you, Ms. 273 1 Williams. 2 JUROR NO. 19: Is that all? 3 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher, do you have any 4 questions? 5 MR. STOPHER: I've even got better news. I 6 don't have any questions for you. 7 JUROR NO. 19: Oh, good. I've got to go to 8 church after while, if that means anything. 9 JUDGE POTTER: We're going to stand in recess 10 until 9:00 tomorrow morning, so be over in the other building 11 in that jury assembly area at nine. I give you the same 12 admonition I've given you before. Don't let anybody talk to 13 you about this case, and don't you talk to anybody about it. 14 That includes your other jurors, your husband, whatever, your 15 children or whatever. 16 JUROR NO. 19: Son. 17 JUDGE POTTER: Don't form or express opinions 18 about it and don't pick up any information from the TV or the 19 newspaper. 20 JUROR NO. 19: Okay. Will do. 21 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you, ma'am. 22 (PROCEEDINGS TERMINATED THIS DATE AT 5:10 P.M.) 23 * * * 24 25 274 1 STATE OF KENTUCKY )( )( Sct. 2 COUNTY OF JEFFERSON )( 3 I, JULIA K. McBRIDE, Notary Public, State of 4 Kentucky at Large, hereby certify that the foregoing 5 Transcript of the Proceedings was taken at the time and place 6 stated in the caption; that the appearances were as set forth 7 in the caption; that said proceeding was taken down by me in 8 stenographic notes and thereafter reduced under my supervision 9 to the foregoing typewritten pages and that said typewritten 10 transcript is a true, accurate and complete record of my 11 stenographic notes so taken. 12 I further certify that I am not related by blood 13 or marriage to any of the parties hereto and that I have no 14 interest in the outcome of captioned case. 15 My commission as Notary Public expires 16 December 21, 1996. 17 Given under my hand this the__________day of 18 ______________________, 1994, at Louisville, Kentucky. 19 20 21 22 23 _____________________________ 24 NOTARY PUBLIC 25