1 1 NO. 90-CI-06033 JEFFERSON CIRCUIT COURT DIVISION ONE 2 3 4 JOYCE FENTRESS, et al PLAINTIFFS 5 6 VS TRANSCRIPT_OF_THE_PROCEEDINGS __________ __ ___ ___________ 7 8 9 SHEA COMMUNICATIONS, et al DEFENDANTS 10 11 *** 12 13 14 THURSDAY, OCTOBER 6, 1994 15 VOLUME IX 16 17 * * * 18 19 20 _____________________________________________________________ 21 REPORTER: JULIA K. McBRIDE Coulter, Shay, McBride & Rice 22 1221 Starks Building 455 South Fourth Avenue 23 Louisville, Kentucky 40202 (502) 582-1627 24 FAX: (502) 587-6299 25 2 1 2 I_N_D_E_X _ _ _ _ _ 3 Bench Discussion......................................... 4 4 WITNESS: MARTHA_WESBECKER _______ ______ _________ 5 Examination by Mr. Smith................................. 8 6 Examination by Mr. Stopher............................... 46 Further Examination by Mr. Smith......................... 77 7 WITNESS: JOHN_THOMAS_MONTGOMERY,_SR. _______ ____ ______ ___________ ___ 8 Examination by Mr. Smith................................. 80 9 Examination by Mr. Stopher............................... 96 Further Examination by Mr. Smith.........................116 10 WITNESS: JOSEPH_KEVIN_WESBECKER _______ ______ _____ _________ 11 Examination by Mr. Smith.................................118 12 Examination by Mr. Stopher...............................147 Further Examination by Mr. Smith.........................159 13 Bench Discussion.........................................162 14 Reporter's Certificate...................................165 15 16 * * * 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 1 2 A_P_P_E_A_R_A_N_C_E_S _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 3 4 FOR THE PLAINTIFFS: 5 PAUL L. SMITH Suite 745 6 Campbell Center II 8150 North Central Expressway 7 Dallas, Texas 75206 8 NANCY ZETTLER 1405 West Norwell Lane 9 Schaumburg, Illinois 60193 10 FOR THE DEFENDANT: 11 EDWARD H. STOPHER 12 Boehl, Stopher & Graves 2300 Providian Center 13 Louisville, Kentucky 40202 14 JOE C. FREEMAN, JR. Freeman & Hawkins 15 4000 One Peachtree Center 303 Peachtree Street, N.E. 16 Atlanta, Georgia 30308 17 ALSO PRESENT: 18 DR. W. LEIGH THOMPSON 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 4 1 The Transcript of the Proceedings, taken before 2 The Honorable John Potter in the Multipurpose Courtroom, Old 3 Jail Office Building, Louisville, Kentucky, commencing on 4 Thursday, October 6, 1994, at approximately 9:30 A.M., said 5 proceedings occurred as follows: 6 7 * * * 8 9 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 10 JUDGE POTTER: First of all, I think this will 11 give us a chance to check the system. If each of you talks 12 into a separate microphone, I think we have all three of them 13 working. I was out to dinner last night and I said something 14 to somebody, and I thought I might as well say something to 15 you-all because I said it to the Court Reporter the other day. 16 My plan is that -- I have a concern that in working through 17 these depositions people will get behind. I can see us 18 getting bogged down that we come up to a day of trial and 19 there's disputes over what does and doesn't come in, and it 20 bogs us down. And so my plan would be if we reach that point, 21 and it's only a concern, that we just have to come in earlier 22 and earlier to get it done by, you know, 9:00. And so I just 23 had said that to somebody last night. I was out to dinner and 24 I thought since I said it to somebody outside of you-all, I 25 ought to say it to you. 5 1 Mr. Stopher, you'll be happy to know you're in 2 good company, that Frank Doheny was unaware that they had 3 repealed the statute and he thought he was the only person 4 that was unaware of that. 5 MR. STOPHER: You know, if you wrote a letter to 6 that commission and asked them to deal with that comment it 7 would help because I think the comment is what got me to -- I 8 thought yesterday it was a statute and I -- I knew there was 9 something out there, but they ought to clean that up. I mean, 10 I have your view on it, but I may go down to Magoffin County 11 with my corporate rep up there and get clobbered. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Well, I was actually wrong 13 yesterday. I reached a result I'm comfortable with, but 14 actually the evidence code didn't change it. What happened 15 was at the same time they enacted the evidence code they 16 repealed the statute. 17 And, for your benefit, Mr. Smith, there used to 18 be a statute in Kentucky that required that once you called a 19 witness other than your plaintiff, you could never call your 20 plaintiff. In other words, you had to put your plaintiff on 21 first. And in your case with two or three or twenty of them, 22 Mr. Stopher's motion was that when you called the police 23 officer you were not then after allowed to call any more 24 plaintiffs. And that's a peculiar local rule. That's why you 25 probably didn't understand the argument you were winning 6 1 (Laughter). We're still waiting on a juror; as soon as they 2 get here, we'll start. 3 MR. STOPHER: Judge, Paul just told me that he 4 forgot to list a witness that he wants to call this afternoon. 5 It is a witness that I am not prepared for this afternoon and 6 I doubt very seriously that I could get prepared for it this 7 afternoon. I have no objection to that person being called in 8 the morning. She lives here in town, she works at City Hall, 9 so I don't have any objection to amending the list out of time 10 today and saying she'll be here tomorrow morning, but I do 11 have a problem in being ready for her this afternoon. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Does tomorrow morning solve your 13 problem, Mr. Smith? 14 MR. SMITH: I'm not sure. She had taken off 15 work this afternoon. I'm not sure what her work schedule is. 16 MS. ZETTLER: What happened, Judge, was John 17 Montgomery was listed twice. 18 JUDGE POTTER: Who is this person? 19 MS. ZETTLER: Sue Chesser. 20 JUDGE POTTER: We'll do it tomorrow morning. It 21 will work itself out. I mean, if -- if you want to write a 22 note, I'll have one of my sheriffs take it over there to her 23 this morning explaining what's happened so she can deal -- she 24 doesn't leave work today before she finds out she's not 25 needed. Ms. Zettler, if you want to write out a Dear Ms. 7 1 Chesser note I'll have one of my sheriffs take it over to her 2 this morning. Well, you know, if you have trouble getting in 3 touch with her, you can do that. 4 MS. ZETTLER: Okay. 5 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Thank you-all. 6 MS. ZETTLER: Thank you. 7 (RECESS) 8 SHERIFF CECIL: The jurors are now entering. 9 All jurors present, Court is now in session. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Please be seated. Ladies and 11 gentlemen of the jury, my sheriff tells me that you-all caught 12 an error that I made yesterday and I want to correct it. I 13 said it would be 9:30 this morning and tomorrow. It's 9:00 14 tomorrow morning, and I will tell you I kind of thought today 15 was Friday. But it will be a half day tomorrow. We don't 16 know exactly when, but when we break for lunch you-all will be 17 allowed to go home, but it is 9:00 tomorrow morning. 18 Ms. Duncan, have you had any problems observing 19 the admonition about not dealing with the newspapers or not 20 letting anybody talk to you about the case? 21 JUROR DUNCAN: No, sir. 22 JUDGE POTTER: Anybody else have any problems 23 with that? 24 Mr. Smith, do you want to call your next 25 witness. 8 1 MR. SMITH: At this time we'd call Martha 2 Wesbecker. 3 JUDGE POTTER: Ma'am, could I get you to step 4 down here and raise your right hand, please. Could you step 5 up here, ma'am. Would you raise your right hand. 6 7 MARTHA WESBECKER, after first being duly sworn, 8 was examined and testified as follows: 9 10 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Would you have a seat 11 right there. Ma'am, would you speak up loudly and clearly and 12 would you state your name for the jury, please. 13 MS. WESBECKER: Martha Wesbecker. 14 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith. 15 16 EXAMINATION ___________ 17 18 BY_MR._SMITH: __ ___ ______ 19 Q. How old a lady are you, Ms. Wesbecker? 20 A. Sixty-eight and two-thirds. 21 Q. And where do you live, ma'am? 22 A. 3700 West Wheatmore Drive, Louisville, Kentucky. 23 Q. And how long have you lived there, ma'am? 24 A. Two years. 25 Q. And before that where did you live? 9 1 A. 1809 Crums Lane. 2 Q. How long did you live there? 3 A. Ten years. 4 Q. You are the mother of Joe Wesbecker? 5 A. Yes, I am. 6 Q. Do you remember how old Joe Wesbecker was when 7 he died? 8 A. Yes, I think so. 9 Q. How old was that, ma'am? 10 A. I think he was 56. No. I don't remember. 11 Q. Do you remember the year that he was born? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. What year was that? 14 A. 1941. 15 Q. Have you lived in Kentucky all your life? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Have you lived in the Louisville, Kentucky, area 18 all your life? 19 A. No. 20 Q. What other areas of the country have you lived 21 in? 22 A. Washington County. 23 Q. Where is that? 24 A. Springfield, Kentucky. 25 Q. Have you been married more than once, Ms. 10 1 Wesbecker? 2 A. No. 3 Q. And how old were you when you got married? 4 A. Fifteen. 5 Q. And who did you marry? 6 A. Thomas Wesbecker. 7 Q. Are you in ill health, Ms. Wesbecker? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Generally, what is the problem with your health 10 at this time? 11 A. Extreme high blood pressure and I have a tumor 12 in my kidney. 13 Q. And are you scheduled for surgery? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. When? 16 A. October the 11th. 17 Q. Ms. Wesbecker, we're going to try to get through 18 this as quickly as possible, but if there is -- if you start 19 feeling ill or need a break, please let us know, would you? 20 A. Thank you. 21 Q. I'd like to, if I can, get sort of a brief 22 family tree from you. What were the names of your parents? 23 A. Thomas Montgomery and Nancy Smith. 24 Q. And how many brothers and sisters did you -- how 25 many children did Mr. Montgomery and Ms. Smith have? 11 1 A. Eleven. 2 Q. Your sister testified here yesterday and said 3 that one of the children died at an early age? 4 A. Yes. Two weeks old. 5 Q. Did your father die at an early age? 6 A. No, sir. 7 Q. How old was your father when he died? 8 A. My father? I think he was 39; I'm not sure. 9 Q. And how did he die, ma'am? 10 A. He was killed at work, a train accident. 11 Q. Do you remember the year that he was killed? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Was it before or after Joe Wesbecker was born? 14 A. After. 15 Q. Shortly after? 16 A. He was two years old at the time. 17 Q. Did you and -- or, you married Thomas Wesbecker? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. And when did you and Mr. Wesbecker get married? 20 A. I think it was 1940. 21 Q. And you and Thomas Wesbecker had one child? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. Joe; is that right? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. What was his full name? 12 1 A. Joseph Thomas Wesbecker. 2 Q. Can you tell us how you met Joe Wesbecker's 3 father, Thomas Wesbecker? 4 A. On a blind date. 5 Q. And then you were married when you were 15? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. And how old was Thomas Wesbecker when you-all 8 married? 9 A. Twenty-three. 10 Q. How long were you married before Joe was born? 11 A. Eleven months, I think it was. 12 Q. And where did you and Mr. Wesbecker live when 13 Joe was born? 14 A. 18th and Broadway. 15 Q. Here in Louisville? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. Was Joe's birth and your pregnancy a normal 18 pregnancy and birth? 19 A. Yes, it was. 20 Q. Any complications whatsoever? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Then your husband, Thomas Wesbecker, was killed? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. When was he killed? 25 A. I don't remember the year. 13 1 Q. And Joe was about a year and a half old -- 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. -- when he was killed, so would that have made 4 it '42 or '43? 5 A. I think it was '43. 6 Q. How was he killed? 7 A. Pardon? 8 Q. How was your husband killed? 9 A. How was he killed? 10 Q. Yes, ma'am. 11 A. He was a sheet metal worker and the ladder gave 12 away with him and he fell from the second floor. 13 Q. What building was he working on at the time? 14 A. St. James's Church on, oh, at Broadway -- 15 Bardstown Road and Edenside, I think it is. 16 Q. Was Mr. Wesbecker's fall from the church that, 17 simply a fall? 18 A. No. He was working on the priest house putting 19 new shingles on. 20 Q. And it was simply an accident? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. After that, what happened to you and Joe? 23 A. Well, we went back to live with my parents. 24 Q. And at that time was your father still alive? 25 A. Yes, he was. 14 1 Q. And how long after you moved in back with your 2 parents and Joe was it that your father died in an accident? 3 A. About a year. 4 Q. Would you describe, then, once you and Joe moved 5 back into the house that your parents had been living in, who 6 all was living there? 7 A. All my brothers and sisters. 8 Q. What was the family situation as far as the 9 economy at that time? Were you-all poor, rich? 10 A. Medium. 11 Q. Did you have enough to eat? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. Did you have enough clothes to wear? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. Did people in the family work? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. Who all worked? 18 A. When we were old enough. 19 Q. Did you work? 20 A. Yes, I did. 21 Q. What type of lady was your mother, Nancy? 22 A. Very religious person and very -- well, she had 23 to be to have raised 11 children by herself. 24 Q. Did she do an adequate job of that? 25 A. I think so. 15 1 Q. Did you love your mother? 2 A. Yes, I did. 3 Q. Throughout her life? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. And when did she die? 6 A. In August of... 7 Q. 1989? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Would you describe for the jury, please, Ms. 10 Wesbecker, Joe in his early childhood? And that's taking from 11 the time of his birth until let's say he was 10 or 12 years 12 old. Okay. What type of boy was Joe? 13 A. Happy-go-lucky. 14 Q. Did he give you any particular problems? 15 A. Nothing, only he didn't like to go to school 16 very well. 17 Q. Did he beat up on kids in his early years? 18 A. I don't remember. 19 Q. Do you remember any fights he got in before he 20 was ten? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Did he seem abnormal in any way? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Did you love Joe? 25 A. Yes, I did. 16 1 Q. Did you try to be as good a mother to him as you 2 could be in the early years? 3 A. Yes, I did. 4 Q. Did your mother, Nancy, help in raising Joe? 5 A. Yes, she did. 6 Q. Tell the jury why you needed your mom's help in 7 raising Joe. 8 A. Well, I had to work, and she kept him while I 9 worked. 10 Q. What hours were you working back there when Joe 11 was a young child, say up to the age of ten? 12 A. Well, for a while I worked day work, and then 13 later on I worked night work, second shift. 14 Q. When you had your day-work job, what were you 15 doing, ma'am? 16 A. I worked at Stewart's as a salesperson. 17 Q. What was Stewart's? 18 A. Dry goods store. 19 Q. And was your mom working at the same time? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Where was she working? 22 A. St. Joseph Infirmary. 23 Q. Were you-all working at the same time? 24 A. No. 25 Q. All right. Tell the jury how that worked. In 17 1 other words, were you working days and she working nights or 2 vice versa? 3 A. No, but -- I can't remember. 4 Q. Was there generally some adult present while Joe 5 was, say, up to 10 or 12 years old to give him direction and 6 guidance? 7 A. Yes, there was. Yes, there was. 8 Q. And who would those adults have been? 9 A. Pardon? 10 Q. Who would those adults have been? 11 A. Myself or my mother. 12 Q. You say Joe didn't like school? 13 A. Not too much. 14 Q. Did he have problems at school? 15 A. Not that I -- no major problems that I knew of. 16 Q. Did he have a reading problem? 17 A. I was not aware of it at the time. 18 Q. Did you later become aware that he had a reading 19 problem? 20 A. Yes, I was. 21 Q. What was the nature of that problem? 22 A. I can't think of the name of it right now. 23 Q. Does dyslexia sound right? 24 A. Yeah. That's right. 25 Q. When did you become aware of that problem? 18 1 A. A long time after he was married. He went back 2 to get his GED. 3 Q. And how did you become aware of it? 4 A. I don't remember exactly. 5 Q. Joe was in an orphanage for a while? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. Do you remember how old he was when he was in an 8 orphanage, approximately? 9 A. I think he was nine. 10 Q. What were the circumstances surrounding Joe 11 going to an orphanage? 12 A. Because he didn't care to go to school. He was 13 playing hooky. And I talked to the teacher and she advised me 14 to put him out there for a semester to see if they could help 15 him with whatever the problem might be, which we didn't know. 16 Q. He was a problem in attendance or a problem in 17 doing his work or a problem in discipline that he was having? 18 A. Just not going to school. 19 Q. What would he do, do you know, when he wouldn't 20 go to school? 21 A. I didn't know it, but I was told he stayed in 22 the garage all day. 23 Q. Playing in the garage? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. So how long was he in the orphanage? 19 1 A. One term of school. 2 Q. And how many months was one term of school? 3 A. I guess nine months. 4 Q. And what orphanage was that? 5 A. St. Thomas. 6 Q. St. Thomas. Was that a Catholic? 7 A. Yes, it was, sir. 8 Q. Was your mom Catholic? 9 A. Yes, she was. 10 Q. Are you Catholic? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. Was Joe Catholic? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. Did you or your mom emphasize religious precepts 15 and values in raising Joe? 16 A. We tried to. 17 Q. Did that seem to take with him at the time? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Did you take Joe to church? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Did Nancy, your mom, take Joe to church? 22 A. Sometimes, but mostly it was me. 23 Q. While he was in St. Thomas Orphanage, did Joe 24 get church, masses or things of that nature? Did he get 25 religious instruction? 20 1 A. Yes, he did. 2 Q. Did Joe want to go to the orphanage? 3 A. Not particularly, no. 4 Q. Did you want to send him to the orphanage? 5 A. I did because the teacher, his superior said 6 that he (sic) thought it would be a good idea. 7 Q. Who was the teacher? 8 A. Sister Josephine, St. George Church -- School. 9 Q. Did your mom, Nancy, agree with the idea that 10 Joe go to the orphanage? 11 A. No, not particularly. 12 Q. Did you and she have discussions about that? 13 A. Not really. 14 Q. Once you put Joe in the orphanage, did you just 15 drop him off and leave him there for nine months? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Would you visit him? 18 A. We went and got him on Saturday and took him 19 back on Sunday afternoon. 20 Q. Would that usually occur every weekend? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. Did Joe seem upset about the fact that he was in 23 the orphanage or did he seem that he was reacting abnormally 24 to that position? 25 A. No. 21 1 Q. Did you miss him when he was at the orphanage? 2 A. Sure, I missed him. 3 Q. Did he miss you? 4 A. I imagine so because he was glad to see me. 5 Q. And after the nine-month period did you take him 6 out of the orphanage? 7 A. Yes, we did. 8 Q. Why did you take him out of the orphanage? 9 A. I can't remember exactly. 10 Q. Were you glad to have him back with you? 11 A. Sure, I was. 12 Q. Up till the time that Joseph Wesbecker was, say, 13 12, did he ever display any violence or abnormal behavior, in 14 your opinion? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Were you living still from time to time with 17 your mom in your mom's household? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And were there other occasions when you would 20 live in your own house or apartment, away from them? 21 A. I think it was twice. 22 Q. Of Joe's first 10 to 12 years, how many years 23 would have been spent there at the house with your mom, Nancy, 24 versus you and Joe in your own living quarters? 25 A. Two-thirds of the time with my mother. 22 1 Q. Why was that? 2 A. Well, I can't remember exactly what happened or 3 why. 4 Q. Well, was it for economic reasons and practical 5 reasons that you remained with your mom? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. You're still a relatively young woman at this 8 time, also? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Then after Joe became 12 -- let's take the ages 11 of 12 to 18. Describe for the jury Joe's behavior and 12 demeanor at that time. 13 Q. Normal. 14 Q. Anything unusual about his behavior and anything 15 of that nature? 16 A. Not that I can recall. 17 Q. Did you and he have any arguments or 18 disagreements during that period of time? 19 A. No more than mom and son would have. Nothing 20 serious. 21 Q. Beg your pardon? 22 A. Nothing serious. 23 Q. During those first 18 years of Joe's life, did 24 you attempt to instill in Joe values that you felt important? 25 A. Yes. 23 1 Q. And did you give him rules, regulations and 2 guidance as we all try to give our children? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And did he accept those rules, regulations and 5 guidance generally well? 6 A. Pretty good. 7 Q. Were there occasions where you and he would have 8 disagreements about what he should do or when he should do it? 9 A. I guess so. 10 Q. Anything any more severe than those problems we 11 all have getting our children to mind us from time to time? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Was Joe a rebellious teenager? 14 A. I didn't think so. 15 Q. Did you ever see Joe beat up anybody as a 16 teenager? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Did you ever hear of Joe getting in a fight? 19 A. I can't remember. 20 Q. Was Joe a thug when he was a teenager? 21 A. Definitely not. 22 Q. Did Joe ever get in any kind of trouble as a 23 teenager? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. On how many occasions? 24 1 A. Two. 2 Q. All right. Tell the jury about both of those 3 occasions when Joe had problems as a teenager. 4 A. Well, one was -- there was four boys that run 5 together and palled around or -- anyway, each time they went 6 out different ones was responsible for getting the gas in the 7 car. And this one time one of the boys didn't have any money, 8 so he stole some gas out of a truck and the others were not 9 aware of it. 10 Q. Did he put it in -- that gas in Joe's car or in 11 his own car? 12 A. Yes -- no, he put it in -- well, it was my 13 sister's car at the time. 14 Q. And somebody saw this young man stealing this 15 gas? 16 A. Yes, they did. 17 Q. And what happened? 18 A. Well, they followed him, and my understanding of 19 it was that the others were on another street and he brought 20 it over and put it in the gas tank, poured it in the gas tank, 21 the boy did, and evidently, whoever saw the incident got the 22 license number and called the police. 23 Q. How old was Joe at this time? 24 A. I'd say around 16, because he didn't have his 25 own car. 25 1 Q. He was driving his aunt's car? 2 A. Yes, he was. 3 Q. So what did the police do about that? 4 A. Well, they took him in -- took them all in and 5 called the parents and we went up there, and whoever it was, 6 whether it was a guard or whatever, didn't know the other 7 three boys, so they were dismissed to their parents. 8 Q. And was Joe dismissed to you? 9 A. Yes, he was. 10 Q. You say the guard didn't know the other three 11 boys. Did he know Joe? 12 A. No. He knew the boy that took the -- got the 13 gas. 14 Q. Oh, the boy that actually stole the gas got in 15 trouble? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. But the other boys, including Joe, were 18 released; is that right? 19 A. Yes, they were. 20 Q. Was Joe put in jail overnight as a result of 21 this incident? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Who went to get him at the police station? 24 A. My sister and I. 25 Q. Which sister, do you recall? 26 1 A. There probably was several of them, but the one 2 I can remember is Colleen. 3 Q. Did you discipline Joe for this? 4 A. Well, yes, in a way. 5 Q. Did you become convinced that Joe knew or didn't 6 know about the fact that this gas that was being put in his 7 car was stolen? 8 A. He did not know. 9 Q. And how did he explain that he didn't know? 10 A. He told me separate from each one -- we got -- 11 the parents talked about it and each one said the same thing, 12 and we didn't let the boys know what different parents had 13 said. 14 Q. So you as his mom investigated this yourself? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And the other parents seemed concerned about it 17 to you? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Any other instances in which Joe got in trouble 20 as a teenager? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Tell the jury about that, Ms. Wesbecker. 23 A. Well, I don't know the whole circumstances, but 24 I do know that they said he was arrested for statutory rape. 25 Q. All right. 27 1 A. And it was with the same four boys. And we went 2 up there and we talked to whoever was in charge. 3 Q. Was this somebody at the police station? 4 A. Yes. It was a lady; I don't remember her name. 5 And they kept them overnight, and the next day they had a 6 hearing in the judge's chambers; I think that was the way. 7 Anyway, the girls finally admitted that they had instigated 8 the whole thing because they wanted to join a club and they 9 had to have sex with a guy to... 10 Q. Did you confront Joe about this? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And did he advise you that he had participated 13 in having sex with any one of these young women? 14 A. No. 15 Q. What did he tell you about what his 16 participation was? 17 A. Well, I don't exactly know how to explain it, 18 but the girls got the guys excited and they measured them and 19 the largest got the job. 20 Q. Did you discipline Joe for this? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. What did you do? 23 A. I can't remember at the time -- remember now. 24 Q. Was it your impression that your son, Joe, had 25 not physically had sexual contact with these girls? 28 1 A. No. He was -- he and another boy were 2 completely -- well, they all were completely -- they were let 3 go. 4 Q. Were the charges dropped? 5 A. Yes, it was. Yes. 6 Q. Did you talk with several policemen and several 7 judges -- or several policemen in connection with this matter? 8 A. I think three, all told. 9 Q. Did you talk with any judges about this matter? 10 A. I was there, but I don't remember talking 11 specifically to any judge. 12 Q. Did any of these policemen indicate to you that 13 this particular incident would indicate that Mr. Wesbecker 14 would grow and that in 30 years he would become a mass 15 murderer? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Did you have any suspicion at this time that 18 this would cause him to do this act that he committed on 19 September 14th? 20 A. No way. I still can't believe it. 21 Q. Anything else happen with Joe up to the age 16 22 or 18 in connection with anything? 23 A. Not that I can remember. 24 Q. Problems with the law or problems with his 25 peers? 29 1 A. Not that I can remember. 2 Q. Did you spoil Joe? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. How would you spoil him? 5 A. Well, giving in to him when he was young, things 6 he wanted. 7 Q. In what way? 8 A. Well, little things he wanted or, you know... 9 Q. Why did you spoil him? 10 A. Well, because he lost his father and his 11 grandfather both at a young age, and he was all I had. 12 Q. Did he seem troubled to you? Did he seem 13 troubled to you as a young child? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Did any school counselors or any professionals 16 indicate to you that Joe Wesbecker was an ill, socially 17 misadjusted child? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Did your mother, Nancy, ever indicate to you 20 that she thought there was something wrong with Joe Wesbecker? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Did any of your sisters who were a little older 23 than Joe, indicate to you that they thought there was 24 something wrong with Joe during his early years? 25 A. No. 30 1 Q. Were there periods where Joe as growing up had 2 an absence of love or missed something? 3 A. Other than not having a father. 4 Q. Do you remember when Joe met his first wife? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. What was her name? 7 A. Sue. 8 Q. Do you recall when they met? Do you recall when 9 they met? 10 A. No, not exactly. 11 Q. Did it appear to you that Joe loved Sue when 12 they got married? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Did it appear to you that Sue loved Joe? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Did their relationship seem ordinary, as far as 17 you were concerned? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Did they have children? 20 A. Yes, they did. 21 Q. And did Joe go to work? 22 A. He sure did. 23 Q. Did Joe in fact go to work before he met and 24 married Sue? 25 A. Yes. 31 1 Q. And where was his first job, do you remember? 2 A. He worked at a fruit stand. 3 Q. And then what was his next job? 4 A. He worked in a grocery store. 5 Q. All right. How old was Joe when he first 6 started working in the fruit stand? 7 A. About 14. 8 Q. And then how old was he when he worked in the 9 grocery store? 10 A. Sixteen. 11 Q. And then -- were these part-time jobs or 12 full-time jobs? 13 A. Part-time. 14 Q. What was his first full-time job? 15 A. The printing company. I can't remember. 16 Q. Does Fawcett-Dearing sound familiar to you? 17 A. Yes. Yes. 18 Q. Do you know whether Joe was excited to get that 19 job? 20 A. Yes, he was. 21 Q. Tell the jury about that. 22 A. Well, he was real excited. It was a good job. 23 He made good money. 24 Q. Do you know whether he was starting off at the 25 ground level at that company? 32 1 A. I would say so. 2 Q. Learning the printing trade? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. How long after Joe started working was it before 5 he met and married Sue? 6 A. I don't know. Several years or two, I'm not 7 sure. 8 Q. When Joe married Sue, did they move out of the 9 house? 10 A. Yes. They had their own place. 11 Q. And did you still visit with Joe and Sue on a 12 regular basis? 13 A. Yes, I did. 14 Q. Would Joe call on you? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And would you call on Joe? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Would you describe your relationship at that 19 time as a normal mother-son relationship? 20 A. I thought so. 21 Q. Did your mother, Nancy, also have a significant 22 impact in raising Joe? 23 A. I think so. 24 Q. And did your mother, Nancy, act as a mother 25 figure to Joe in some ways at some times? 33 1 A. Yes. In a lot of ways. 2 Q. Was that something that upset you or was that 3 all right with you? 4 A. Well, as long as he was being taken care of. I 5 had to work. 6 Q. Did your mother, Joe's grandmother, Nancy, seem 7 to be an adequate mother figure to him when you weren't 8 present? 9 A. Yes. I think so. 10 Q. You didn't have any problem with your mother 11 taking care of your son? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Do you remember when Joe's children were born? 14 A. Pardon? 15 Q. Do you remember when Joe's children were born? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Can you give us the years? 18 A. I can't remember right now what the date was. 19 Q. What was Joe's oldest child, what was his name? 20 A. Kevin. 21 Q. And his second child? 22 A. Jimmy. 23 Q. Was Joe proud of his children? 24 A. Yes. Definitely. 25 Q. Did Joe appear to you in those early days a 34 1 loving father to those children? 2 A. I thought so. 3 Q. Did he do things with them? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Such as? Do you remember anything he would do? 6 A. Go to ball games with them. I can't remember 7 offhand but, I mean, they were always doing something, going 8 on trips or... 9 Q. After the boys were born, let's say from the 10 time the boys were born up until the time that they were five 11 or six years old, did Joe and Sue bring the kids by to let you 12 visit with your grandsons? 13 A. Yes. Especially when they wanted to go out, I 14 kept them. 15 Q. Did you go to Joe and Sue's house on occasion to 16 see the grandchildren? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And how was your relationship with Joe at this 19 time? 20 A. Good. 21 Q. Did you love your grandchildren? 22 A. I sure did. 23 Q. Did Joe let you give love as a grandmother to 24 his sons? 25 A. Yes. 35 1 Q. Do you remember approximately how long Joe and 2 Sue were married? 3 A. I think it was close to 20 years. 4 Q. Did their marriage seem appropriate up until it 5 ended? 6 A. I thought so. 7 Q. Did you ever see Joe and Sue fighting? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Do you know of any abuse that Joe might have 10 caused on his immediate family, being Sue or the two boys? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Now, did Kevin have a physical handicap? 13 A. He has a curvature of the spine. 14 Q. Is that called scoliosis? 15 A. I can't think of the name right now. 16 Q. Was Joe abnormally concerned about Kevin's 17 physical problem? 18 A. Yes. They took him to the doctor. 19 Q. Was this an abnormal concern, though? Was it 20 more concern than you would ordinarily see with a parent who 21 had a child with a physical handicap? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Did Joe indeed do everything he could to seek 24 and provide medical attention for Kevin? 25 A. Yes. 36 1 Q. Do you know what problems there were that caused 2 Joe and Sue to get a divorce? 3 A. No, I don't know for sure. 4 Q. What was your understanding of why he and Sue 5 got a divorce? 6 A. I don't really know. 7 Q. Do you still -- were you still speaking with Joe 8 regularly at the time that he and Sue divorced? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Did you have a fondness for Sue? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Do you still have a fondness for Sue? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Did you grow to love your grandsons, Kevin and 15 Jimmy? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Do you still love your grandsons? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Do you recall when Joe went to work for Standard 20 Gravure Printing Company? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Was Joe excited about that job? 23 A. Yes, he was. 24 Q. Up until the time that Joe and Sue divorced, did 25 you ever hear Joe express any concerns about his job at 37 1 Standard Gravure or any of the people he worked with? 2 A. I can't remember it. 3 Q. How often would you see Joe during the period of 4 time that he was married to Sue? 5 A. Almost every week. 6 Q. Do you think during that period of time Joe kept 7 in touch with you more or less than he kept in touch with his 8 grandmother, Nancy, or about the same? 9 A. I guess about the same. 10 Q. Did there then come a period of time when you 11 and Joe became estranged? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. When was that, Ms. Wesbecker? 14 A. About three years -- three or four years before. 15 Q. Before September 14th, 1989? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. Was this after Joe had divorced Sue and married 18 and divorced Brenda? 19 A. I don't remember whether they were already 20 divorced at that time or not. 21 Q. What was the reason for this estrangement 22 between you and your son, Joe, Ms. Wesbecker? 23 A. Well, he just called me and told me that he 24 thought Kevin was bad for Jimmy and he didn't want me to have 25 anything to do with Kevin, and I just told him that I was 38 1 their grandmother and he could not tell me what -- who I could 2 see and who I couldn't. 3 Q. At that time was Jimmy living with you? 4 A. Yes, he was. 5 Q. Why? 6 A. I was trying to help him with his problem. 7 Q. What was his problem, Ms. Wesbecker? 8 A. He's -- he exposes himself. 9 Q. Did that problem manifest itself before Joe and 10 Sue got divorced? 11 A. I don't think so. 12 Q. How come was it that Jimmy was living with you 13 in relation to that problem? 14 A. Well, they thought maybe I could help him. 15 Q. And were you willing to do that? 16 A. Yes, I was. 17 Q. So where was Kevin living at this time? 18 A. He was living at a friend's house. 19 Q. And how old was Kevin at this time, 20 approximately? 21 A. I'd say 17 or so. 22 Q. And how old was Jimmy? 23 A. I guess he was more like 17. He was in high 24 school. 25 Q. All right. 39 1 A. So that would have made Kevin maybe in his 20s. 2 Q. What was the difference in ages between Kevin 3 and Jimmy? 4 A. Four years. 5 Q. Four years? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. All right. So let's get a little more details 8 about this conversation that caused your relationship with Joe 9 to cool. Joe called you; is that right? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. And expressed to you that he didn't want you to 12 allow Kevin to come by to see Jimmy? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. And did he tell you the reason why? 15 A. He thought that he wasn't -- maybe he was the 16 cause of his trouble -- happening with his trouble. I don't 17 know for sure. 18 Q. Well, had Kevin caused any problems in the 19 family up to that time that you were aware of? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Was Joe mad at Kevin at that time? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Why was Joe mad at Kevin? 24 A. Well, he wanted him to go to college and Kevin 25 didn't want to go. 40 1 Q. When would this have been, early '80s that this 2 dispute between you and he arose or was it later in the mid 3 '80s? 4 A. I would say it was a little later. 5 Q. All right. So you told Joe that you were -- 6 since Jimmy was there that you would allow Kevin to see Jimmy? 7 A. I said I would see my grandsons, both my 8 grandchildren. I would not keep them away. 9 Q. From each other? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Or from you? 12 A. From me. 13 Q. Are you somewhat stubborn, Ms. Wesbecker? 14 A. Well, I've got red hair. 15 Q. Was Joe stubborn? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Was Joe unreasonably stubborn at times? 18 A. Well, sometimes I thought he was. 19 Q. But then has anybody accused you of being 20 unreasonably stubborn? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. Okay. After you and Joe had these words -- and 23 at that time in the mid '80s, did you know that Joe had been 24 seeing a psychiatrist? 25 A. No, sir; I did not. 41 1 Q. Did you know that Joe had in fact by the mid 2 '80s been in psychiatric hospitals? 3 A. No, sir. I knew it after he was in the 4 hospital, but not at the time. 5 Q. But before you and he had this conversation, you 6 didn't know that Joe was suffering from the mental illness of 7 major depressive disorder; is that what you're telling me? 8 A. No. 9 Q. All right. Then how long was it that this cool 10 relationship lasted? 11 A. Well, I guess you would say about four years. 12 Q. Did it in fact last until Joe Wesbecker 13 committed suicide? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. Did you have any communications at all with 16 Joe -- 17 A. At times, yes. 18 Q. Beg your pardon? 19 A. At times, yes. 20 Q. Tell the jury about those communications you 21 would have with Joe. 22 A. Well, when I'd have to call him about things 23 that Jimmy needed or I saw him in court quite a few times. 24 Q. Did Jimmy continue to live with you from time to 25 time? 42 1 A. Just that one semester. 2 Q. And was Jimmy's problem an ongoing problem? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And you saw him at court one time? 5 A. Several times. 6 Q. I mean, Joe at court several times? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. Even though your relationship with Joe had 9 cooled, did it appear to you that Joe was still interested and 10 concerned about Jimmy and his problem? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Did you speak at court? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And did you speak in connection with Jimmy's 15 problems? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Did he tell you at that time that he was seeing 18 a psychiatrist or had been hospitalized for his mental 19 condition? 20 A. No. He never told me. 21 Q. Did he at that time tell you he was taking any 22 type of medications for his illness? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Did you suspect that he was? Did he appear in 25 court like he had been medicated? 43 1 A. Well, he was sort of real sleepy. 2 Q. Was he still working at Standard Gravure at that 3 time? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Had he already been taken off of disability? 6 A. He was on disability. 7 Q. Did you know that Joe was on disability at that 8 time? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. Did you know why he was on disability? 11 A. From a nervous disorder is what he told me. 12 Q. He did then tell you he had a nervous disorder 13 before his death? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. When was it that he told you he had a nervous 16 disorder? 17 A. I can't remember. 18 Q. Well, was it before that time in court or after 19 that? 20 A. I don't remember. 21 Q. When did you last see your son, Joe Wesbecker? 22 A. I guess it was at my mother's funeral. I don't 23 remember. 24 Q. Was that at approximately -- on approximately 25 August the 9th, 1989? 44 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. Did you know at that time that Joe was under the 3 care of a psychiatrist? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And did you know at that time that he was off of 6 work by virtue of a diagnosis of major depressive disorder? 7 A. No, sir. 8 Q. Did you know who his psychiatrist was? 9 A. I had heard. But he didn't tell me. 10 Q. Where had you heard his psychiatrist's name? 11 A. I can't remember who told me but somebody in the 12 family told me. 13 Q. Maybe one of your sisters? 14 A. I really don't -- I don't really know -- 15 remember. 16 Q. How was Joe -- how was his personality on 17 September 9 -- I mean, August 9th, 1989, when you last saw 18 him? 19 A. Very cool to me, but he laughed and cut up with 20 everyone else. 21 Q. Did he seem extremely depressed or in a lot of 22 psychiatric distress on August 9th, 1989? 23 A. I didn't think so. 24 Q. Was he still cool towards you? 25 A. Yes. 45 1 Q. In fact, what happened, Ms. Wesbecker? In fact, 2 what happened between you and he at that time? 3 A. Well, nothing, I just spoke to him and he just 4 turned his head and went on. 5 Q. Do you think he heard you? 6 A. I don't know. I thought he did. 7 Q. Did you talk with Joe on the telephone after 8 that one occasion and before September 14th, 1989? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Would you have ever described your son, Joe 11 Wesbecker, as a violent man? 12 A. I did not think so. 13 Q. Would you ever describe your son, Joseph 14 Wesbecker, as a sociopath? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Would you ever describe your son, Joseph 17 Wesbecker, as a trouble maker? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Bully? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Ruffian? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Juvenile delinquent? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Bad father? 46 1 A. No. 2 Q. Bad husband? 3 A. I don't think so. 4 Q. Bad man at all? Was he bad at all, as far as 5 you knew? 6 A. I didn't think so. 7 Q. That's all I have, Ms. Wesbecker. Thank you. 8 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher. 9 Ma'am, you just have to wait a moment. This 10 other gentleman may have some questions for you. 11 MS. WESBECKER: Oh. 12 13 EXAMINATION ___________ 14 15 BY_MR._STOPHER: __ ___ _______ 16 Q. Mrs. Wesbecker, if you want to take a break 17 again or get a drink of water -- do you have some water there? 18 A. Yes, I have some. Thank you. 19 Q. All right. If you do feel ill and want to stop, 20 I'm sure we'll all understand, and I've got to kind of rely on 21 you to let us know when you need to do that. Fair enough? 22 A. Okay. Thank you. 23 Q. Ms. Wesbecker, let me go back with you, if I 24 might. You started to give us some information about a family 25 tree, I think was the words that were used, and you told us 47 1 the name of your father and mother, Thomas Montgomery and 2 Nancy Smith; correct? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. You did not tell us the names of your husband's 5 father and mother. Do you remember them? 6 A. Yes, sir. Joe and Murrell Wesbecker. 7 Q. Your-father-in-law was Joe? 8 A. Joe Wesbecker. Joseph. 9 Q. And your mother-in-law was Murrell? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. M-U-R-R-E-L-L? 12 A. I believe that's the way she spelled it. 13 Q. All right. Now, if I understand correctly, your 14 husband was killed on the job; am I right? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. And your father was killed on the job; am I 17 right? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. And your son was at that time still in his 20 infancy; am I right about that? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. Now, if I understand correctly, after your 23 husband was killed on the job, you moved back in with your 24 mother and father? 25 A. Yes, sir. 48 1 Q. And if I understand correctly, it was shortly 2 after you moved back in that your father was killed on the 3 job; am I right? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. And that left your mother as the head of the 6 household; correct? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. And you lived there along with I think at that 9 time ten other brothers and sisters? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. And you were, I believe, the second or third 12 oldest; am I right about that? 13 A. I am the oldest. 14 Q. You are the oldest? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. And John Montgomery, is he next oldest to you? 17 A. No. Mildred Higgins. 18 Q. Mildred Higgins. And then John Montgomery? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. All right. And when you moved back in, Ms. 21 Wesbecker, if I understand it, you would have been about 16? 22 A. Seventeen. 23 Q. Or 17. Now, if I understand correctly, your son 24 was treated like one of the other children there; is that 25 accurate? 49 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. He wasn't treated as a nephew, but was treated 3 more like a brother to the other younger Montgomery children; 4 is that accurate? 5 A. Well, he just blended right in. 6 Q. And if I understand correctly, some of those 7 older kids would be responsible on occasions for taking care 8 of him and perhaps disciplining him? 9 A. If I wasn't at home they might have. 10 Q. If I understand correctly, at about that same 11 time, you were working outside the home at Philip Morris; is 12 that accurate? 13 A. Well, I worked at Stewart's first. 14 Q. Stewart's first? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. And then at Philip Morris? 17 A. Yes, sir. And then I worked at the hospital 18 after that. 19 Q. Now, at one point in time, Ms. Wesbecker, as I 20 understand it, you moved out of your mother's home while you 21 were still working at Stewart's? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And you took your son, Joe Wesbecker, with you; 24 am I correct? 25 A. Yes, sir. 50 1 Q. Do you recall where you moved when you moved out 2 of the home? 3 A. I think it was on Duker off Bardstown Road. 4 Q. Was that a housing project at that time? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Did you first move into a housing project with 7 your son? 8 A. No. That was afterwards. 9 Q. Well, let me skip to that time when you moved 10 with your son to the housing project. Were the two of you 11 living there together? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. And you were working? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. Who would take care of your young son when you'd 16 go to work? 17 A. Well, he'd go off to school by the time I went 18 to -- left for work, and then the lady downstairs watched him 19 until I got home. 20 Q. Now, at some point in time your mother-in-law, 21 Murrell, lived with you and your son; am I correct? 22 A. Yes. That's when we lived on Duker. 23 Q. Was that on Duker? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. Was that after the time that you worked at 51 1 Stewart's and lived in the housing project? 2 A. That was before. 3 Q. Well, let me go back to that. I apologize for 4 getting this out of order then. 5 A. All right. 6 Q. You and your son are living at an apartment? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. On Duker Street? 9 A. On Duker Avenue. 10 Q. And Murrell Wesbecker, your mother-in-law, is 11 living there with you? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. And if I understand correctly, you would go to 14 work and she would take care of your son? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. Was there an incident involved when she was 17 taken away? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. Would you tell us about that, please. 20 A. I took her because her son put her in a nursing 21 home, and he was paying me $20 a week, and it was hard for me 22 to make ends meet. So I asked him for $5 more, and he went up 23 and swore out a warrant to have her put in Central State. 24 Q. This was her son? 25 A. Yes, sir. 52 1 Q. Your husband's brother? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. And was he taken -- was she taken out of the 4 apartment there on Duker Street? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. Was your son there with her? 7 A. Yes, sir. But I had talked to the -- I went and 8 saw the judge the day before. 9 Q. Were you there when she was taken away? 10 A. No. I was at work. 11 Q. What happened when she was taken away? 12 A. Well, they took Joe to a children's center. 13 Q. Did she go willingly and voluntarily when they 14 came to get her? 15 A. No. 16 Q. I think you told me once before that she was 17 taken away screaming in front of him? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. And she was taken to Central State Hospital? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. And that was pursuant to or after a warrant was 22 taken out by her own son? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. Did she remain there at Central State Hospital 25 until her death? 53 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. Now, about how old was Joe Wesbecker, Ms. 3 Wesbecker, when that occurred? 4 A. I don't remember exactly. It was before he 5 started school. 6 Q. Now, Ms. Wesbecker, if I understand correctly, 7 after living in the housing -- after living on Duker Street 8 and then in the housing project, you moved back in with your 9 mother and with your son again; am I right? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. And it was at this time that the school or 12 Sister Josephine recommended that he be placed in St. Joseph's 13 Orphanage; am I right about that? 14 A. No. That was several years afterwards. 15 Q. Do you know how old he was at that time, ma'am? 16 A. I think he was around nine. 17 Q. Do you know what year it was? 18 A. No. I don't remember. 19 Q. Ms. Wesbecker, when he first went out there, did 20 you and your mother disagree over whether or not he should go 21 there? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And did she go and get him and bring him home? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And was that against your wishes? 54 1 A. Yes. They had asked me -- the first weekend 2 they asked me not to come -- just to visit him on Sunday, not 3 to come and get him. But she didn't agree with it, so she 4 went while I was at work. 5 Q. And she brought him home? 6 A. For the weekend, yes. 7 Q. Did she go every weekend or nearly every weekend 8 and pick him up or did you do that? 9 A. Whenever I got -- if she didn't go on Friday I 10 went on Saturday because I worked Friday night. 11 Q. But usually she would go get him on Friday and 12 bring him home? 13 A. She wasn't supposed to but she did. 14 Q. She wasn't supposed to but she did it; am I 15 right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. You didn't want her to go get him? 18 A. No. That was the terms when I put him out 19 there, that I would get him on Saturday morning and bring him 20 back on Sunday afternoon late, before 8:00. 21 Q. Ms. Wesbecker, were you aware that your mother 22 would ride the bus and then walk a mile to two miles to go get 23 him at the orphanage to bring him home? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. And she did that many weeks during that nine 55 1 months, did she not? 2 A. No, she did not. 3 Q. Didn't? 4 A. She did four or five only. 5 Q. Mrs. Wesbecker, wouldn't your mother sign his 6 report cards? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. And you didn't know how he was doing in school 9 or not doing in school because you didn't see the report 10 cards, did you? 11 A. I didn't see them very often. 12 Q. Did you get the feeling, Ms. Wesbecker, that 13 your mother was sort of vying, competing almost with you for a 14 relationship with your son? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And did it make -- did she make statements about 17 you to him that were unkind? 18 A. I did not hear them but... 19 Q. But you know that they were made; is that true? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. She would make statements about your character 22 and about the things that you did or didn't do; is that 23 accurate? 24 A. Not her as much as some of them in the family. 25 Q. Some of your sisters would say things like that 56 1 to him about you? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Did that create a certain amount of friction and 4 resentment between you and your sisters and perhaps even your 5 own mother? 6 A. Well, I tried to talk to her and she said, "Kids 7 will be kids." 8 Q. Ms. Wesbecker, your mother wouldn't allow 9 friends to come to the home, would she? 10 A. Not very often. 11 Q. And growing up, you don't know what friends your 12 son, Joe, had; am I correct about that? 13 A. Yes. I knew -- I knew them. Yes. I knew them. 14 Q. Were they allowed in the home? 15 A. No. They generally picked him up out front. It 16 wasn't that they weren't allowed that I know of. 17 Q. Ms. Wesbecker, when your son got out of the 18 orphanage, did he move back in with your mother? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And eventually you moved out of that household 21 on your own; correct? 22 A. Not till after he married. 23 Q. You continued to live in the same household with 24 your mother and all of the others until Joe Wesbecker married? 25 A. Yes, sir. 57 1 Q. And she continued to be the head of that 2 household? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. Ms. Wesbecker, you mentioned earlier that your 5 son had a habit of playing hooky; am I right? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. Did you think that he attended Flaget High 8 School? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. Did he lead you to believe that he had been 11 there for one to one and a half years? 12 A. I don't remember how long. 13 Q. Is it possible that he told you that he was 14 going to school when in fact he was not? 15 A. I didn't know anything about it. 16 Q. Ms. Wesbecker, do you remember giving your 17 deposition, your testimony under oath, on November 30, 1992? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. The same oath that you're under today? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. Let me refer you to Page 146 of that deposition 22 at Line 1. "Question: Ms. Wesbecker, do you think it's a 23 possibility that he told you that he was going to Flaget and 24 that in fact he was not? 25 "Answer: Yes. 58 1 "Question: As far as you recall, he would get 2 up in the morning and dress as if he was going to school and 3 drive away as if he was going to school; is that true? 4 "Answer: Well, I guess he did because, see, I 5 worked night work and sometimes I wouldn't get home until two 6 or three o'clock in the morning, and unless something unusual 7 came up, they wouldn't wake me up in the morning so... 8 "Question: You wouldn't see him go to school 9 and you wouldn't see him come home from school? 10 "Answer: No." 11 Do you remember that testimony? 12 A. No, I don't remember it but anyway... 13 Q. Is it accurate? 14 A. Yes. I guess. 15 Q. Ms. Wesbecker, did he develop an early habit of 16 keeping facts about himself from you? 17 A. No, I don't think so. 18 Q. You think he was always candid and forthright in 19 his communications with you? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. You don't think he ever kept issues and concerns 22 from you that were bothering him? 23 A. He might have but I didn't -- I wasn't aware of 24 it. 25 Q. Ms. Wesbecker, if I understand correctly, when 59 1 he was still a teenager he had this incident in which he was 2 charged by the young women. And if I understood you 3 correctly, there were four boys involved; is that accurate? 4 A. That's my understanding of it, yes. 5 Q. And is it your understanding that he was not 6 placed in jail? 7 A. He spent the night in jail. 8 Q. One night? 9 A. That's all I can remember. 10 Q. Did he tell you what he thought about being in 11 jail? 12 A. He didn't like it. 13 Q. What did he say he didn't like about it? 14 A. He just didn't like it, the thought of being in 15 jail. 16 Q. Did he tell you that he was so upset that he had 17 some thoughts about his own life? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Never mentioned that to you? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Ms. Wesbecker, in the late teen years of your 22 son, you were working, if I understand correctly, at Philip 23 Morris; is that accurate? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. And you were working on some machines there that 60 1 would sometimes work too fast and it would make you nervous; 2 is that true? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Didn't it make you irritable? 5 A. Not really. 6 Q. Let me again refer you back to your testimony 7 under oath, Page 172, and ask you if you remember giving these 8 answers. At Line 16, "Question: There was at least one 9 machine that was too quick for you? 10 "Answer: Well, it was -- have you ever been in 11 a cigarette machine? That is, well, when they first put 12 you -- first put those cigarettes where the cigarettes come 13 out. 14 "Question: Right. 15 "Answer: All right. I used to -- I started out 16 as being a catcher. Well, these others were so much faster 17 and they had so much more bad -- they had cigarettes in it and 18 we had to try to knock them out as we picked them up. I 19 didn't like working that fast and it made me a little nervous. 20 "Question: When you would get nervous because 21 the machine was too fast for you, how would you notice it in 22 yourself? 23 "Answer: Mostly fussing and making it a little 24 bit harder for the mechanics and others. 25 "Question: It would make you irritable to try 61 1 to keep up with the machine? 2 "Answer: Yes. I guess you could say that." 3 A. I don't remember anything of that at all. 4 Q. That testimony is not accurate? 5 A. I don't remember it. 6 Q. Ms. Wesbecker, if I understand correctly, your 7 mother's relationship to your son created a lot of pressure 8 and guilt in you; is that true? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Didn't it create so much pressure and guilt in 11 you that you attempted to take your own life? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Let me refer you to your testimony under oath 14 again at Page 191, Line 4: "When she -- Nancy Montgomery -- 15 would make you feel" -- 16 MR. SMITH: Objection, Your Honor. It doesn't 17 say that. 18 MR. STOPHER: That's correct. It says "she." 19 It refers to Nancy Montgomery. 20 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Well, approach the bench. 21 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 22 MR. STOPHER: (Indicates to Judge Potter). 23 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith? 24 MR. SMITH: If you read the question -- we 25 object to the answer, but the question doesn't read that way. 62 1 There was development that they were talking about Nancy as 2 opposed to reading the question and reading verbatim from the 3 deposition when in fact -- 4 JUDGE POTTER: Do you have any doubt that 5 they're talking about Nancy Montgomery? 6 MR. SMITH: I just don't want to leave the 7 impression that the questions as read are leading the Witness 8 to believe it says Nancy Montgomery. 9 JUDGE POTTER: Why don't you make a statement 10 that the "she" is Nancy Montgomery and then read the question 11 verbatim. 12 MR. STOPHER: Thank you, Judge. 13 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 14 MS. WESBECKER: Before we get started, may I be 15 excused a minute, please? 16 JUDGE POTTER: Certainly, Ms. Wesbecker. 17 Okay. I tell you what, ladies and gentlemen, 18 why don't we go ahead and take our morning break. Do not 19 permit anybody to communicate or talk with you about this 20 trial. Do not discuss it among yourselves and do not form or 21 express opinions about it. We'll stand in recess for 15 22 minutes. 23 (RECESS) 24 SHERIFF CECIL: The jury is now entering. All 25 jurors present; court is back in session. 63 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 63 1 JUDGE POTTER: Please be seated. 2 Ms. Wesbecker, I remind you you're still under 3 oath. 4 Mr. Stopher. 5 MR. STOPHER: Thank you, Your Honor. 6 Ms. Wesbecker, referring back again to the sworn 7 testimony that you gave in deposition, Page 191, Line 4. 8 "Question: When she..." -- referring to Nancy Montgomery, 9 your mother -- "...would make you feel guilty, you mentioned 10 earlier that she tried to make you feel guilty because you 11 were a bad person. What did she think was bad about you other 12 than your name? 13 "Answer: Because I was named after that person 14 and she didn't think that person was any good, but she was no 15 different than anybody else. There wasn't -- but she was just 16 like that. She just didn't like her. And when he gave me the 17 name, why, that was just too much, I guess, for her to handle. 18 I don't know. 19 "Question: And you inherited the venom; is that 20 a fair statement? 21 "Answer: Yes. 22 "Is that the main reason that you thought at 23 that time about maybe ending your life was all the pressure 24 that she was putting on you and the guilt? 25 "Answer: A lot of it, two-thirds. 64 1 "Question: The remaining one-third was the 2 situation that you were in? 3 "Answer: Well, I guess it was the whole thing 4 because she took my son over. 5 "Question: Just kind of pushed you out of the 6 way? 7 "Answer: Yes. 8 "Question: I take it that you must have felt at 9 that time that your only role was to go to work, bring money, 10 put it on the table and let her run your life; is that a fair 11 statement? 12 "Answer: To a certain extent. She wasn't quite 13 that bad, but she was the type of person that tried to jiggle 14 this one and that one, to rob Peter to pay Paul. And, of 15 course, she was left with 10 children and the oldest one was 16 17 so... 17 "Question: Did you and she ever -- you 18 described it as a war of words -- were there times that you 19 tried to get back at her in any way for the way she was 20 treating you? 21 "Answer: No. It wouldn't have done any good. 22 "Question: She was always in control? 23 "Answer: Yes. 24 "Question: Because she had everybody else on 25 her side, I take it? 65 1 "Answer: She had a tendency to do that. 2 "Question: Including your own son? 3 "Answer: Yes." 4 Is that accurate testimony, Ms. Wesbecker? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Ms. Wesbecker, from that time on, if I 7 understand correctly, you've had a problem with depression 8 through the years; is that accurate? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And, Ms. Wesbecker, did you and your son, Joe 11 Wesbecker, in the 1980s confide in each other about depression 12 and about what it had done to each of you? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Never spoke to each other about it? 15 A. No. 16 Q. You never told him and helped support him with 17 his problem and he never tried to help you or support you with 18 your problems of depression; is that right? 19 A. Well, I never told him that I had -- that I was 20 depressed in any way or anything about it. 21 Q. And he never told you and there was no exchange 22 of ideas of help or aid in that situation? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Ms. Wesbecker, going back again to the time that 25 your son, Joe, and his first wife, Sue, began to have 66 1 troubles, that was in the late 1970s when they separated and 2 ultimately entered into divorce proceedings; is that about 3 right? 4 A. I think so. 5 Q. And about that time didn't Joe Wesbecker begin 6 to tell you that he was upset at work? 7 A. Well, he wasn't real pleased about a lot of 8 things, like everybody else is. 9 Q. What did he tell you he was not pleased about at 10 work even in the late 1970s? 11 A. I can't remember exactly what -- what was said. 12 Q. Did he tell you he was upset about the 13 chemicals? 14 A. He did mention it, yes. 15 Q. Did he tell you that he believed that the 16 chemicals were responsible for causing Jimmy's problems? 17 A. No. He did not tell me that. 18 Q. Let me refer you again to your sworn testimony 19 under oath, Page 227, and ask you if you gave these answers 20 under oath to these questions, Line 6, "Question: In 1978 or 21 '79, your son had voiced a lot of complaints about the 22 environment at work and specifically the chemicals at work. 23 Did he tell you that he was concerned that it had affected his 24 mind? 25 "Answer: No. He seemed to think that it had 67 1 something to do with Jimmy's situation. 2 "Question: That is, that -- 3 "Answer: But that's the only thing that -- that 4 he said. And then several of the other men had had trouble 5 and he thought it -- it wasn't only for him that he was trying 6 to get them in there and check it out; it was because of 7 everybody there. 8 "Question: He felt that his exposure to the 9 chemicals had a genetic effect on him and that it had shown up 10 in Jimmy's case? 11 "Answer: Something to that. 12 "Question: Did he state it differently than I 13 just did or -- 14 "Answer: Well, he -- he felt like that it -- 15 the chemicals -- had something to do with the imbalance of 16 chemicals in the child." 17 Did you give that testimony under oath on that 18 date? 19 A. I might have, but I've forgotten it. 20 Q. Is it accurate now that you've been reminded 21 about it? 22 A. Yes. He did say something about -- I remember 23 him being disturbed about the chemicals, yes. 24 Q. He was very disturbed about Jimmy's problem of 25 exhibition or exposure; correct? 68 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. In many ways it was devastating to him that his 3 son would behave like that; isn't that true? 4 A. He never voiced that. He was trying to help him 5 like all the rest of us but... 6 Q. Nothing really seemed to work? 7 A. No. 8 Q. And Joe Wesbecker blamed it on the chemicals at 9 Standard Gravure; correct? 10 A. I never thought of it that way. 11 Q. Isn't that what he said in this conversation? 12 A. I can't remember exactly. I'm sorry. 13 Q. Now, Ms. Wesbecker, the divorce proceedings 14 between your son and his first wife involved some criminal 15 charges and your testifying in a matter in court; is that 16 true? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And did you testify on behalf of your son, Joe 19 Wesbecker? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And did you testify against his wife, Sue 22 Wesbecker? 23 A. I had to say what she said. 24 Q. Was that testimony accurate? 25 A. I guess it was. 69 1 Q. Didn't you later find out that the testimony was 2 false? 3 MR. SMITH: Object, Your Honor. What testimony? 4 The question is unclear. 5 JUDGE POTTER: Sustained. Sustained. 6 Q. Mrs. Wesbecker, let me get it straight. If I 7 understand correctly, your son filed a complaint, citation, 8 against Sue Wesbecker for harassing communications and 9 terroristic threatening? 10 A. That's my understanding of it; yes, sir. 11 Q. And you testified at that proceeding about those 12 calls? 13 A. It wasn't -- yes, I guess I -- I'm not sure of 14 what. 15 Q. And based on those proceedings there was a 16 conviction of Sue Wesbecker; correct? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. The conviction being that she had made 19 terroristic calls to your son's house or household; correct? 20 A. That's what they said. 21 Q. And you testified? 22 A. Not to making the calls or anything, no, because 23 I did not know. 24 Q. Did you later learn that that conviction was in 25 error? 70 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. That it wasn't Sue at all; correct? 3 A. No. 4 Q. It was someone else? 5 A. So I was told. 6 Q. Mrs. Wesbecker, after the divorce from Sue, your 7 son married Brenda; correct? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And did you go to that wedding? 10 A. No. 11 Q. After your son married Brenda, did you remain 12 close to your son? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. You saw him frequently? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Talked to him frequently? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. He confided in you? 19 A. No. I wouldn't say confided. We talked but... 20 Q. There wasn't -- he didn't give you much 21 information about what was going on in his life after he 22 married Brenda? 23 A. No. 24 Q. He didn't tell you about being in Our Lady of 25 Peace on two occasions and Baptist East psychiatric ward on 71 1 one occasion? 2 A. I did not know about it. I heard from other 3 people, not from him. 4 Q. Did he mention to you about suicide attempts? 5 A. No. I did not know of any. 6 Q. Did he discuss Jimmy's problems with you and 7 their effect on him? 8 A. Not their effect on him, no. 9 Q. Did he -- if I understand correctly, in the 10 early 1980s he wanted Kevin to go to school, specifically to 11 college; am I right? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. And Kevin either didn't want to go or just 14 stopped going; am I correct about that? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And then if I understand correctly, Joe 17 Wesbecker stopped talking to his oldest son, Kevin; is that 18 true? 19 A. Yes. In a roundabout way. 20 Q. Do you know, Ms. Wesbecker, how long he went 21 without talking to his oldest son? 22 A. No. 23 Q. And his reason for doing that -- his reason for 24 doing that was simply that his son didn't want to go to 25 college? 72 1 A. There was probably other things but I don't 2 remember. 3 Q. Well, based on what you do remember, is that the 4 only reason that you can recall as to why he stopped talking 5 to his son? 6 A. Well, it was because of his girlfriend, another 7 thing. He didn't care for her. 8 Q. He didn't like Kevin's girlfriend? 9 A. No. 10 Q. So he stopped talking to him; right? 11 A. I don't know whether they stopped talking 12 altogether or not, but they weren't close like they used to 13 be. 14 Q. Then, if I understand correctly, he called you 15 and asked you to either stop talking to Kevin or to stop 16 letting Kevin associate with Jimmy; am I correct? 17 A. In association with Jimmy. 18 Q. He called you? 19 A. Yes. He didn't want me to let him come around 20 Jimmy. 21 Q. And tried to get you to not let Kevin come into 22 your house and see Jimmy; is that what it amounted to? 23 A. Yes. Yes. 24 Q. And you refused to do that; am I correct? 25 A. I did. 73 1 Q. And then, if I understand correctly, he stopped 2 speaking to you? 3 A. More or less. 4 Q. If I understand, he never spoke to you again? 5 A. Oh, yes. We spoke several times, but we weren't 6 close. 7 Q. Anything other than just saying hello or 8 nodding? 9 A. Well, talking about -- when we were at court 10 talking about Jimmy and that type of thing. 11 Q. In court; right? 12 A. At the courthouse, yes. 13 Q. After that time, did he ever send you anything 14 at Christmastime? 15 A. Not personally. His wife did. 16 Q. But he didn't? 17 A. Well, it came from them. 18 Q. Did he ever send you anything on your birthday? 19 A. Well, again, Brenda or Sue -- Brenda at that 20 time did. 21 Q. Brenda did, but I'm speaking about your son. 22 A. Well, I don't know where he was -- all I know, 23 it came from Joe and Brenda. 24 Q. Ms. Wesbecker, did he ever invite you to his 25 home on Nottoway Circle? 74 1 A. No. 2 Q. And you never went there? 3 A. No. I didn't go in the house but I've been 4 there. 5 Q. Ms. Wesbecker, during those years when he was 6 not speaking to you, do you know who he would confide in as to 7 what was going on in his life? 8 A. Not particularly, no. 9 Q. Obviously, I assume, or you correct me if I'm 10 wrong, he wouldn't have confided in Kevin? 11 A. I don't think so. 12 Q. Do you know what his relationship was with 13 Brenda during those two to three years when you and he were 14 not speaking? 15 A. Not completely, no. 16 Q. Ms. Wesbecker, if I understand correctly, the 17 last time that you spoke to your son was around 1986 or 1987, 18 when you were in court about Jimmy; is that accurate? 19 A. No. I spoke to him on other times when he would 20 be at social functions, but there was no conversation. 21 Q. There would be no conversation, just hello? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. In other words, the last time you ever really 24 spoke to him other than just to greet was in 1986 or 1987 in a 25 court proceeding involving Jimmy; is that accurate? 75 1 A. Not particularly, no. We didn't have -- we 2 didn't have a close relationship, no. 3 Q. Let me refer you to your deposition on December 4 11, 1992, Page 416, Line 9: "Ms. Wesbecker, when was the last 5 time that you talked to your son before the shootings? 6 "Answer: I can't remember the exact date. 7 "Question: Can you remember what it was about? 8 "Answer: It was when we were in court with 9 Jimmy. 10 "Question: And which time was that? 11 "Answer: I can't remember exactly. 12 "Question: Where was it? 13 "Answer: At the courthouse. 14 "Question: In Louisville? 15 "Answer: Yes, sir. 16 "Question: How old was Jimmy? 17 "Answer: I can't -- it's been about four years, 18 five. I don't know. 19 "Question: Four or five years ago? 20 "Answer: Yes. 21 "Question: Sometime around 1986, 1987, along in 22 there? 23 "Answer: Yes. Must have been. I'm not sure 24 about that but..." Is that testimony accurate? 25 A. I don't remember. 76 1 Q. Ms. Wesbecker, I thought I understood you today 2 to say that the last time that you saw your son, Joe 3 Wesbecker, was at Nancy Montgomery's funeral on August 9, 4 1989. Did I understand that testimony accurately? 5 A. I've seen him in the car -- I saw him in the car 6 several times but that's the only time. 7 Q. And he was laughing and cutting up with everyone 8 else but was very cool to you at that funeral? 9 A. Yes. Yes. 10 Q. Ms. Wesbecker, isn't it accurate that the last 11 time that you saw your son was at Easter or Thanksgiving of 12 1988, when you caught a glimpse of him as he was leaving 13 Rebecca Ann Broome's house as you arrived? 14 A. It might have been. I don't remember. 15 Q. Ms. Wesbecker, did your son ever advise you that 16 he had written a new will and had left nothing to Kevin? 17 A. No, sir. 18 Q. Did he tell you that he had deeded -- that he 19 had deeded his house away on Nottoway Circle to Brenda? 20 A. No, sir. 21 Q. Did he tell you that he had acquired firearms 22 and ammunition? 23 A. No, sir. 24 Q. Had you ever known him to own and to use 25 weapons? 77 1 A. No, sir. 2 Q. Did he tell you what his relationship was with 3 the Standard Gravure company in the late 1980s, particularly 4 with regard to disability? 5 A. He did not himself, no. 6 Q. Ms. Wesbecker, prior to -- excuse me -- during 7 the last three to four years of his life, did he ever confide 8 in you as to what his plans were, what he was going to do in 9 the future, where he was going to go and what he was going to 10 be? 11 A. No, sir. 12 Q. Thank you, Ms. Wesbecker. 13 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith, anything further? 14 15 FURTHER_EXAMINATION _______ ___________ 16 17 BY_MR._SMITH: __ ___ _____ 18 Q. Ms. Wesbecker, have you searched your soul since 19 September 14th, 1989, to try to figure out why your son did 20 what he did? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. Do you know of anything that you did that could 23 have contributed to these people's problems? 24 A. No, sir. 25 Q. Do you know of anything that you did that could 78 1 have contributed to your son's problems? 2 A. No, sir. 3 Q. Do you know of any problems that you might have 4 had 40, 30, 25 years ago with your own mother that would have 5 contributed to Joe Wesbecker murdering 20 -- 8 people and 6 shooting 14 people? 7 A. No, sir. No, sir. 8 Q. Did you do anything, ever, in your life to try 9 to affect your son's behavior other than in the best possible 10 manner? 11 A. No, sir. 12 Q. Do you know anything about Prozac? 13 MR. STOPHER: Objection, Your Honor. 14 JUDGE POTTER: Sustained. 15 Q. Do you know anything about antidepressant 16 treatment? 17 MR. STOPHER: Objection. 18 JUDGE POTTER: Sustained. 19 Q. Did you take an antidepressant medication? 20 MR. STOPHER: Objection, Your Honor. 21 JUDGE POTTER: Overruled. 22 Q. Did you ever take an antidepressant medication? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. Do you have any -- any knowledge or experience 25 or expertise in mental health? 79 1 MR. STOPHER: Objection, Your Honor. 2 JUDGE POTTER: Sustained. 3 MS. WESBECKER: Do I answer? 4 JUDGE POTTER: No. You don't have to. 5 Q. Do you know of anything about the problems 6 between Jimmy, Kevin, Sue, and Brenda or Standard Gravure that 7 could have caused your son, Joseph Wesbecker, to do what he 8 did? 9 A. No, sir. 10 Q. If Joe Wesbecker had come to you after August 11 10th, 1989, would you have given him care, counseling and 12 support if you could have? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 MR. STOPHER: Objection, Your Honor. 15 JUDGE POTTER: Overruled. Is that about it, Mr. 16 Smith? 17 Thank you very much, ma'am. You may step down; 18 you're excused. 19 Mr. Smith, you want to call your next witness. 20 MR. SMITH: We call John Montgomery. 21 22 JUDGE POTTER: Sir, would you step down here and 23 raise your right hand, please. 24 JOHN T. MONTGOMERY, SR., after first being duly 25 sworn, was examined and testified as follows: 80 1 2 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Would you have a seat 3 there in the witness box indicated by my sheriff and state 4 your name loud and clearly for the jury and then keep your 5 voice up and answer Mr. Smith's questions. 6 MR. MONTGOMERY: John Thomas Montgomery, Sr. 7 8 EXAMINATION ___________ 9 10 BY_MR._SMITH: __ ___ _____ 11 Q. How old a man are you, sir? 12 A. Sixty-six. 13 Q. Are you Joseph Wesbecker's uncle? 14 A. Yes, I am. 15 Q. Are you Martha Wesbecker's brother? 16 A. Brother. Yes, I am. 17 Q. Are you Nancy Wesbecker's son? 18 A. Yes, I am. 19 Q. What's your first recollection of Joseph 20 Wesbecker? 21 A. Well, just a cute little boy is the only thing I 22 can remember, to start with. 23 Q. Do you remember when Joe Wesbecker was born? 24 A. Yes, I do. 25 Q. How much older are you, sir, than Joe Wesbecker? 81 1 A. Fourteen years, I believe. 2 Q. Did you have contact with Joe Wesbecker during 3 his early years? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Why was that, sir? 6 A. Well, we lived in the same home. 7 Q. And whose home was that? 8 A. My mother's and father's. 9 Q. Did you ever abuse Joe Wesbecker? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Did you ever see anybody abuse Joe Wesbecker? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Did you ever see any abuse that Joe Wesbecker 14 caused on anybody? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Did you continue to see Joe Wesbecker on a 17 frequent or infrequent basis after he became a teenager? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Tell the jury about those occasions when you 20 would see him. 21 A. Well, it was just normal occasions. You know, 22 it was just he'd say hi and, you know, talk about different 23 things. 24 Q. Were you and he close? 25 A. Pretty close. 82 1 Q. Did he look up to you? 2 A. Probably when he was little. 3 Q. Did you have a fondness for him? 4 A. Yes, I did. 5 Q. Did he ever come to you with problems? 6 A. He never talked much about problems, you know. 7 Q. I'm talking about when he was younger. 8 A. No. I don't remember him coming, you know, with 9 problems. 10 Q. Did you know when Joe Wesbecker was put in an 11 orphanage? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Do you know the reason he was put in the 14 orphanage? 15 A. He didn't want to go to school. 16 Q. Did you know before that that he didn't want to 17 go to school? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Do you know who put him in the orphanage? 20 A. My sister, Martha, I believe. 21 Q. Was that as a means of punishment for him? 22 A. I don't think so. I didn't take it that way. 23 Q. How did you take it, sir? 24 A. Well, she wanted him to go to school and, you 25 know, get an education. 83 1 Q. What percentage of the time were you and Joe 2 Wesbecker living under the same roof up until the time he was 3 18? 4 A. About 30 percent. 5 Q. And during that time, did you observe any 6 abnormal behavior in Joe Wesbecker? 7 A. No. No. 8 Q. After Joe was 18, did you see him from time to 9 time? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Do you recall when he married his first wife, 12 Sue? 13 A. I was his best man. 14 Q. And was Joe happy about getting married? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Was Joe a hard worker? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Was Joe a decent father to his children? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Did you ever see Joe when it didn't appear that 21 he was trying to put the best interests of his children first? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Did you ever see Joe when he wasn't acting in 24 all ways as a good citizen? 25 A. No. 84 1 Q. Paid his taxes? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Worked? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Did you ever see him hit anybody? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Did you ever hear him abuse anybody? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Did you ever notice anything abnormal whatsoever 10 about Joe Wesbecker? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Did you continue to speak with Joe and be 13 friendly with Joe during the term of his marriage to Sue 14 Wesbecker? 15 A. To Sue? 16 Q. Yes. 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And what was their relationship, as you observed 19 it? 20 A. They seemed to get along good. 21 Q. Did they do activities together? 22 A. I really couldn't really give you a straight 23 answer on that. 24 Q. Well, did they come over to your house? 25 A. Some, yes. 85 1 Q. Did you see them at family gatherings? 2 A. Right. Yes. 3 Q. Did you observe any activities that Joe did with 4 his children? 5 A. Well, I don't know how to answer that. 6 Q. Well, did they go to ball games? Did they go to 7 the show? 8 A. Well, they talked about going, yes; I didn't 9 actually see them go. 10 Q. But you were aware that they were spending time 11 together? 12 A. Right. I was aware, yes. 13 Q. During that first 18 years would you consider 14 that Joe's background was unusual or abnormal? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Would you consider the family background that 17 Joe was raised in as dysfunctional? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. In what way? 20 A. Maybe I misunderstood the question. 21 Q. My question was, would you consider that the 22 family background that Joe Wesbecker had as being 23 dysfunctional? 24 A. Oh, dysfunctional? No. 25 Q. Did you ever see Joe Wesbecker lose his temper? 86 1 A. When he was little. 2 Q. What would he do? 3 A. Mostly sulk. 4 Q. Was that anything different than -- do you have 5 children? 6 A. Yes, I do. Five. 7 Q. Was that anything different than your children 8 did? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Was that anything different than other children 11 of that age? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Did you ever see Joe Wesbecker get in a fight? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Did you ever hear of him fighting? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. In what connection? 18 A. Well, at one time he had a black eye, and he was 19 supposed to have received that in a fight. 20 Q. Other than -- how old was he then? 21 A. Twenty -- 19 or 20, something like that. 22 Q. Was that before or after he and Sue got married? 23 A. Before, I believe. 24 Q. Did you ever hear any complaints that Joe made 25 concerning any of his jobs? 87 1 A. Any of his jobs? 2 Q. Yeah. 3 A. Yes, I did. 4 Q. Tell the jury about those. 5 A. Well, he used to complain about having to work 6 the machine, which he never mentioned by name but I understand 7 it was the folder. He didn't like to work that. 8 Q. Anything else about his job that he complained 9 about? 10 A. No, not really. 11 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Montgomery, can I get you to 12 keep your voice up. Do you see a thing that looks like this? 13 Make sure that's right in front of you because both of those 14 things are picking you up there. If you'll keep your voice 15 up, sir. 16 MR. MONTGOMERY: All right. 17 JUDGE POTTER: I'm sorry, Mr. Smith. Go ahead. 18 Q. Did Joe seem like a good worker? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Did he work long hours? 21 A. All the time. 22 Q. Did he complain about working long hours? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Was he interested in making money? 25 A. Yes. 88 1 Q. Did he spend a lot of money on himself? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Do you know what he did with his money? 4 A. Well, he invested a lot of it and I know he 5 bought his children things and bought his wife things. 6 Q. Anything else about what he did with his money? 7 A. No. Just normal things. 8 Q. Were you aware that Joe became mentally ill? 9 A. At what time? 10 Q. At any time before September 14th, 1989. 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. When was it that you learned that Joe had a 13 mental illness? 14 A. When I found out he was on a pension. 15 Q. On a pension? 16 A. On a disability pension. 17 Q. From Standard Gravure? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. And when would that have been, sir? 20 A. About 1988, I guess, the best I can remember. 21 Q. Did you and he discuss that? 22 A. No. 23 Q. How did you learn about it? 24 A. My sister told me about it. 25 Q. Do you remember which one? 89 1 A. Mildred Higgins. 2 Q. Did you ever mention anything about -- to Joe 3 Wesbecker about his mental condition? 4 A. He never brought it up and I never said anything 5 to him. 6 Q. Did he appear to you to be mentally ill? 7 A. Not advanced stage or anything. He seemed -- he 8 had problems. 9 Q. What kind of mental problems was he having that 10 you observed, Mr. Montgomery? 11 A. He was worried about chemicals and stuff like 12 that. 13 Q. All right. Worried about the chemicals? 14 A. Right. Yes. 15 Q. When was that? 16 A. The middle '80s, I would say. 17 Q. Anything else? Did you observe any change in 18 his demeanor or his attitude? 19 A. Quieter. 20 Q. When did that start happening? 21 A. After he had divorced. 22 Q. Brenda or Sue? 23 A. Sue. 24 Q. Did it progress to where he became a recluse? 25 A. No. I wouldn't say that, no. 90 1 Q. From 1980 until 1989, how often would you talk 2 with Joe? 3 A. From '78 to about '82, I hardly talked to him. 4 And then after that, why, it was just quite a bit, you know, 5 not a lot but quite a bit. 6 Q. Any particular reason that you know of that you 7 didn't talk with Joe much between '78 and '82? 8 A. Well, for one thing, I went on first trick and 9 he was working second, the way I understand it, and, you know, 10 that put us at different hours and that creates problems and 11 we weren't able to get together that much. 12 Q. Where were you working then, sir? 13 A. Norfolk-Southern Railway. 14 Q. And how long did you work for the railway? 15 A. About 45 years. 16 Q. You and Joe never worked together? 17 A. We did -- worked on his house or something like 18 that together but we never actually worked, no, we never 19 worked together. 20 Q. I mean at the same employment. 21 A. No. We never had the same employment. 22 Q. What type of work together would you do on 23 houses? 24 A. Put a roof on, water heater, worked on the sink, 25 you know, handyman jobs. 91 1 Q. Were these repairs done at your house or at his 2 house? 3 A. His. 4 Q. And which house of his? 5 A. The first house was on Donald Drive and then the 6 one on Devonshire, and that was the last one I helped him on. 7 Q. Did you ever work on the house on Nottoway 8 Circle? 9 A. I didn't actually work in there, no. 10 Q. Were you ever in there? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. When? 13 A. Well, it must have been '89, early part of -- 14 early '89 several times. 15 Q. Why did you go over there then, Mr. Montgomery? 16 A. Well, part of the reason was we went over to 17 discuss putting a bathroom in his -- downstairs in his family 18 room. 19 Q. And did you do that? 20 A. No. Basically I told him, you know, what could 21 be done or how he could do it if he wanted to, and he had 22 someone else do it. 23 Q. Well, is it your understanding that that work 24 was accomplished by someone? 25 A. I understood it was done, yes; I don't remember 92 1 seeing it done, though. 2 Q. Were you actually in the house on Nottoway 3 Circle? 4 A. Yes. Several times. 5 Q. And anything abnormal or unusual about that 6 house that you observed? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Did you ever observe any abnormalities or 9 unusual social behaviors that Joe Wesbecker might have engaged 10 in as an adult? 11 A. No. No. 12 Q. When was the last time that you talked to Joe? 13 A. I really can't say. About a month before he 14 died. 15 Q. Did you see him at your mother, Nancy's, 16 funeral? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And how did he appear then? 19 A. Shaken. He was, you know, just felt like the 20 world crashed down on him. 21 Q. And did you see him after that? 22 A. Well, yes. 23 Q. When did you see him next? 24 A. After we got home, why, he -- I forget about 25 that -- I can't remember whether he -- we went someplace and 93 1 he was there; I'm just not sure. But I do remember seeing him 2 one time after that. 3 Q. After your mom's funeral? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. You don't remember where that was? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Do you remember how long that was after that? 8 A. Oh, just right away. 9 Q. Did you ever talk to Joe after that? 10 A. No. He called me the Saturday before the 11 Thursday and we had discussed doing some shrubbery work on his 12 house. And I wasn't home, so he told my sons that, "I'll call 13 him back." And he said, "Well, do you want Dad to call you?" 14 He said, "No. I'm not home. I don't live there no more, so 15 he wouldn't be able to get ahold of me," and that's the last I 16 ever heard from him. 17 Q. That was the Saturday before -- 18 A. The Saturday before the Thursday, I believe. 19 Q. Before the Thursday, which was September 14th? 20 A. I believe it was on Thursday. 21 Q. Did you know that Joe had been seeing a 22 psychiatrist? 23 A. Not till it was over. 24 Q. Did you know that Joe had been in the 25 psychiatric hospital? 94 1 A. No, I did not. 2 Q. Did you have some transaction with Joe in '89 3 concerning an automobile for Jimmy? 4 A. For Jimmy? 5 Q. Or Kevin. 6 A. No, neither one of them. I was going to buy a 7 car from him. In fact, I had bought it, but it never did go 8 through. 9 Q. What do you mean it didn't go through? 10 A. Well, he died before we had a chance to finish 11 it. The red car that he drove that day is the car I was going 12 to buy from him for my son. 13 Q. Oh, you were going to buy the car for your son? 14 A. I was going to buy the car from Joe. 15 Q. And when did you talk with Joe about that last? 16 A. That was the last time I talked to him. Now I 17 remember. Yeah. That was the last time I talked to him, 18 about the car. He brought the car over and we stood out in 19 the driveway and we talked about the car. He knew everything 20 that was wrong with that car, every dent in it. 21 Q. Can you give us any idea as to when that was 22 before this incident on September the 14th, Mr. Montgomery? 23 A. It must have been two weeks before he died. I 24 really -- I remember it happening. I had forgotten about it 25 for a minute there, but I remember it happening. 95 1 Q. And how did you leave it, this transaction on 2 the automobile? Why didn't you go ahead and buy it then? 3 A. I didn't have the money. 4 Q. Oh, and he said when you get the money call me, 5 or how did... 6 A. No. He said don't worry about it and, you know, 7 first chance we get, why, we'll get this taken care of, and we 8 never did. 9 Q. How were you going to get it taken care of if 10 you didn't have the money? 11 A. I presume he was going to let me owe him the 12 money or whatever. That's what I thought. 13 Q. He was going to let you pay it out over a period 14 of time? 15 A. Right. Right. Yes, sir. 16 Q. Was Joe like that? 17 A. If he liked you. 18 Q. Had you borrowed money from him before? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Had he offered to loan you money before? 21 A. Yes. Yes, he did. 22 Q. On more than one occasion? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And did you ever take him up on it? 25 A. No. We had a good credit union at work; I 96 1 really didn't need to most times but... 2 Q. Was there ever any instance that you called on 3 Joe for help or that you were having problems that you 4 couldn't count on Joe to help you out? 5 A. He always, you know, was willing to help. He'd 6 volunteer mostly and I'd just say I don't need it; I've got 7 so-and-so going to be coming over. But he did volunteer 8 several times. 9 Q. Thank you, Mr. Montgomery. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher? 11 12 EXAMINATION ___________ 13 14 BY_MR._STOPHER: __ ___ _______ 15 Q. Mr. Montgomery, can you hear me all right, sir? 16 A. Well, I don't hear very well, but I can get most 17 of it. 18 Q. All right. If there's ever a time, sir, that 19 you don't hear something in a question, would you be kind 20 enough to let me know, sir, because we all want you to only 21 give an answer if you understand the question. Fair enough? 22 A. All right, sir. Yes, sir. 23 Q. So if you don't hear me, if you'll just 24 indicate, and I'll try to speak louder. 25 A. All right, sir. 97 1 Q. All right. Mr. Montgomery, as I understand it, 2 the period of time that you lived in the same house with Joe 3 Wesbecker was approximately in the years 1947 until 1952; is 4 that about right, sir? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Do you think it was different than that? 7 A. It would be '44 through '46, and I was in the 8 service part of '46, '47 and '48. And then it was -- I came 9 back in '48, and then it was '52 that we moved out of the 10 home. 11 Q. All right, sir. So if I understand correctly, 12 then, it was approximately 1942 to 1952, but during part of 13 that time you were away in the service during the war; am I 14 right? 15 A. And I lived with my grandparents one year in 16 1943 and '44. 17 Q. All right, sir. If I understand correctly, 18 then, you didn't live with him after that time? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Okay. Now, sir, if I understand correctly, Mr. 21 Wesbecker didn't want to go to school and would go to some 22 lengths to avoid going to school when he was a boy; is that 23 right? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. He even went so far as to throw his shoes up on 98 1 the roof and hide them and say he didn't have his shoes and he 2 couldn't go to school? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And at some point in time he was put into 5 St. Thomas Orphanage? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Primarily because he didn't want to go to 8 school, if I understand correctly? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And if I understand, sir, while he was there in 11 that orphanage, you would take your mother, Nancy Montgomery, 12 out to visit him; is that right? 13 A. Yes. Yes. 14 Q. And he didn't want you to come in and see him in 15 the orphanage, did he, sir? 16 A. No. 17 Q. He would say to you, "You don't want to come in 18 here." Is that the way you remember it, sir? 19 A. Yes. Yes. 20 Q. If I understand correctly, sir, you did not take 21 his mother out to the orphanage to see him and you don't know 22 whether she went to visit him; is that right, sir? 23 A. That's right. 24 Q. Sometimes Nancy Montgomery would bring him back 25 home on weekends; is that true, sir? 99 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Mr. Montgomery, after Joe Wesbecker got out of 3 the orphanage, he and his mother did not get along well from 4 that point on; isn't that a fair statement, sir? 5 A. No. 6 Q. It's not fair? 7 A. No, sir. 8 Q. Do you recall, sir, giving testimony in this 9 case under oath on November 10, 1992? 10 A. Yes. But that came much later, the 11 disagreement. 12 Q. Let me refer you, sir, to Page 49, Line 23, 13 "Question: When he came back from the orphanage, how did he 14 and his mother, Martha, get along? 15 "Answer: Not well." 16 A. Well, I misunderstood your question, then, 17 because they didn't start having trouble until sometime later. 18 Q. Okay. All right. They didn't get along well? 19 A. In later years, not well at all. 20 Q. But didn't it start when he came home from the 21 orphanage? 22 A. No. 23 Q. The testimony that I just read, sir, on 24 November 10, is that not right? 25 A. I have no idea why I said that. 100 1 Q. After he got back from the orphanage, sir, were 2 there sometimes problems in the household where he would side 3 with his grandmother, Nancy Montgomery, against his mother? 4 A. I didn't observe confrontation like that, you 5 know. I know that he loved his grandmother more than anybody. 6 Q. More than his own mother? 7 A. I would say more than anybody. 8 Q. Including her? 9 A. I would say so. But I never saw, you know, them 10 get in an argument or anything over, you know, correcting him. 11 Q. Did your mother, who was his grandmother, Nancy 12 Montgomery, did she treat him like a son more than like a 13 grandson, sir? 14 A. I think we all did, yes. 15 Q. Including her? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Now, sir, if I understand correctly, when Mr. 18 Wesbecker was a teenager, approximately 16, he bought his 19 first car from you? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. A red 1949 Ford convertible? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And at that time, sir, you thought he was 24 attending Flaget High School? 25 A. Yes, I did. 101 1 Q. And you were not aware for six months that he 2 had dropped out of high school and had kept it a secret? 3 A. Maybe longer. 4 Q. Maybe longer than that? 5 A. Maybe longer. I'm not sure. But I did not know 6 about it. 7 Q. He kept that from you and from everybody that 8 was in close contact with him? 9 A. I won't say everybody. 10 Q. But at least from you, sir? 11 A. But I didn't know it. 12 Q. Right. Then, if I understand correctly, sir, 13 when he and Sue were married, they had two children, of 14 course, two sons, and there developed a problem with regard to 15 Jimmy, the youngest son, and his behavior. Were you aware of 16 that, sir? 17 A. Later, yes. 18 Q. And Joe Wesbecker would discuss that problem 19 with you on many occasions; isn't that true, sir? 20 A. Several. 21 Q. And didn't Joe Wesbecker tell you that he 22 thought Jimmy's problems were caused by the chemicals at 23 Standard Gravure that had altered his genes and that surfaced 24 in Jimmy? 25 A. Yes. 102 1 Q. Didn't he collect stacks of papers regarding the 2 bad effects or negative effects of chemical exposures? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. You saw that stack of papers in his living room; 5 am I right? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. He told you that he had made phone calls and 8 written for information on solvents and what they can do to 9 you? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. In those discussions, didn't he tell you, Mr. 12 Montgomery, that he was devastated by Jimmy's behavior? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Didn't he tell you that neighbors had taken 15 photographs of Jimmy acting out and that it was embarrassing 16 in the neighborhood? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Didn't he also tell you, sir, that his oldest 19 son, Kevin, had a curvature of the spine? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And that he was very worried about that, also? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And didn't he tell you that he blamed that 24 problem on the chemicals at Standard Gravure? 25 A. He -- he didn't know exactly how to approach 103 1 that. He wasn't sure about that, but he did think it had 2 something to do with it. 3 Q. He thought that the chemicals somehow 4 contributed to Kevin's curvature of the spine? 5 A. He couldn't find any history in our family of it 6 and he thought -- yes, he thought it was possible. I don't 7 remember him coming right out and saying that, but he did 8 think it was possible. 9 Q. Did he attempt to get literature on that topic, 10 sir? 11 A. I believe he did. 12 Q. Mr. Montgomery, let me ask you about the sworn 13 testimony that you gave previously, see if you gave this 14 testimony under oath at Page 90, Line 8. "Question: At some 15 point in time Kevin also had a problem with scoliosis; were 16 you aware of that, sir? 17 "Answer: Oh, scoliosis. Oh, yes. 18 "Question: Did Joe Wesbecker ever discuss that 19 problem with you? 20 "Answer: Yes. 21 "Question: What did he tell you about that 22 problem? 23 "Answer: He thought chemicals was primarily 24 responsible for it. 25 "Question: That is, that the chemicals that he 104 1 was exposed to at work -- and then interrupting -- 2 "Answer: He was exposed to at work. 3 "Question: -- changed the genetics in him such 4 that Kevin had this scoliosis? 5 "Answer: Yes." 6 Is that testimony still accurate, sir? 7 A. Well, as I remember it, he thought it was 8 possible. But Jimmy, he felt real strong about Jimmy, but I 9 don't remember him feeling that strong about Kevin. 10 Q. Mr. Montgomery, was it recommended that Kevin 11 have an operation on his back? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And did Kevin go along with that surgery or that 14 operation? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Did Joe Wesbecker tell you how he felt about 17 that? 18 A. He thought it was terrible. 19 Q. He thought he should have had the operation? 20 A. He should have had the operation. 21 Q. And did Joe Wesbecker stop talking to Kevin 22 after he refused to have the surgery? 23 A. Yes. I understand he did. 24 Q. Do you know how long he stopped talking to him 25 because he wouldn't have an operation? 105 1 A. How long? 2 Q. Yes, sir. How many years or months or weeks or 3 days? 4 A. No. I can't say how long. 5 Q. Did he tell you that he was going to cut him out 6 of his will and leave him no money? 7 A. He did. 8 Q. Did Joe Wesbecker ever discuss with you, sir, 9 his mental illness? 10 MR. SMITH: Objection. Asked and answered, Your 11 Honor. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Overruled. 13 A. Sir? 14 Q. Did he ever discuss his mental illness with you, 15 sir? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Did he ever tell you that he had been in Our 18 Lady of Peace Hospital on two occasions and in Baptist East 19 psychiatric ward on one occasion? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Mr. Montgomery, if I understand correctly, after 22 Joe Wesbecker and Sue Wesbecker separated and ultimately 23 divorced in the late 1970s, sir, you didn't hear much from him 24 for a few years in there; am I right? 25 A. Three or four, maybe five years. 106 1 Q. And you kind of lost contact with him in that 2 period, sir? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Did he marry in that period, sir? 5 A. I don't know when he got married the second 6 time. 7 Q. Did you go to the wedding? 8 A. No. 9 Q. You were the best man at the wedding with Sue? 10 A. Right. Yes, sir. 11 Q. But did you even know about the wedding to 12 Brenda when it was happening? 13 A. No. 14 Q. In the 1980s, sir, he used to call you from work 15 at Standard Gravure; am I right about that? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And he would tell you from time to time that 18 they put him on a machine that he didn't want to be on; am I 19 right? 20 A. Yes. Yes. 21 Q. And did he tell you that he was making 22 complaints against the union with regard to that? 23 A. Against the union? 24 Q. Yes, sir. 25 A. I can't remember that. 107 1 Q. Did he tell you he was making complaints against 2 anybody for having to work with the machine? 3 A. He went to the union with complaints was my 4 understanding. 5 Q. Perhaps I got it wrong. He went to the union 6 with complaints about having to work the machine? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. Did he get a solution to that problem? 9 A. He wasn't happy with what happened. 10 Q. If -- did you ever hear him discuss Mike Shea? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Didn't he tell you that he thought that Mike 13 Shea was one of those people that comes in, builds the 14 business up and then drops it? 15 A. He said in a sense, yes. 16 Q. Didn't he also tell you that he had to do the 17 work of his supervisors -- 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. -- because they didn't know how to do the work? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Do you know if any of these statements were 22 true? 23 A. I have no idea. 24 Q. These are just things that he told you about his 25 work? 108 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And about his attitude toward people at work? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Is that right, sir? 5 A. Yes. Yes. 6 Q. Did he tell you that he didn't like Brenda's 7 daughter? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Didn't he also tell you, sir, that in the 1980s 10 he and his mother were not getting along? 11 A. Yes. I don't know what point, but he did tell 12 me that, yes. 13 Q. And didn't he tell you that he blamed his mother 14 for moving to the projects? 15 A. He hated the projects. I'm not exactly sure how 16 he phrased it. 17 Q. Did he tell you what other issues there were 18 between himself and his mother? 19 A. Well, the only issue that I was really aware of 20 was him and Jimmy. 21 Q. How was that an issue between them, sir? 22 A. He wanted the doctors to be -- you know, he 23 didn't want her interfering with the doctors in any way. 24 Q. He thought she was interfering with the doctors 25 that were treating Jimmy? 109 1 A. That's the way I understood it. 2 Q. Did he stop speaking to his mother, sir? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Do you know how long he went without speaking to 5 her? 6 A. How long? 7 Q. Yes, sir. 8 A. No. 9 Q. Do you know what the real reason was for his not 10 speaking to her? 11 A. I think I just gave it. 12 Q. That is, that she was interfering with Jimmy and 13 his treatment for the behavioral problems. 14 A. Right. That was -- yes. 15 Q. Mr. Montgomery, in the early 1980s, didn't you 16 notice that Joe Wesbecker appeared depressed and despondent? 17 A. The early 1980s? 18 Q. Yes, sir. '82, '83, along in there. 19 A. I don't know -- he was kind of -- I don't 20 remember how long it was, but I didn't see him much then. 21 Q. Did you at any time during the 1980s notice that 22 he was depressed and despondent? 23 A. Any time? 24 Q. Yes, sir. 25 A. Yes. 110 1 Q. When was it, sir? 2 A. It was much later, towards the end. 3 Q. Which period in the 1980s, sir? 4 A. The latter part, I would say. 5 Q. Did you notice, sir, that Mr. Wesbecker never 6 stood still? 7 A. Nobody in the family does. 8 Q. And he never stood still; is that true? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Did that get worse during the 1980s? 11 A. I never took exception to it. 12 Q. Whether you took exception to it or not, sir, 13 did it get worse? 14 A. I don't know. 15 Q. In the 1980s, sir, did he continue to confide 16 and open up to you like he had back when he was married to 17 Sue? 18 A. Well, he never talked as much. 19 Q. That's what I meant, sir. 20 A. No. 21 Q. Did he keep talking to you about problems at 22 work? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Did he keep talking about the chemicals? 25 A. Yes. 111 1 Q. Did he keep on talking about Jimmy and Kevin? 2 A. Hardly ever mentioned Kevin, but Jimmy, yes. 3 Q. And did he continue to blame the chemicals for 4 Jimmy's problems? 5 A. That and Jimmy. 6 Q. Now, sir, at one time, if I understood you 7 correctly, you went to his home on Nottoway to discuss 8 building a bathroom; am I right about that? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And this was apparently in about 1985 or 1986; 11 is that accurate, sir? 12 A. I was thinking later. It's possible, though, it 13 was that. 14 Q. All right. And if I understand correctly, sir, 15 he wanted a bathtub in a new bathroom; correct? 16 A. Uh-huh. Yes. 17 Q. And he wanted that bathtub to be normal size; am 18 I correct? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. But he wanted the strength of that bathtub to be 21 five times that of an ordinary bathtub; am I right? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. And he wanted it to be so strong that nobody 24 would ever use it; am I right? 25 A. Nobody would ever use it? 112 1 Q. Would ever need it to be that strong; is that 2 right, sir? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And he checked and double-checked and triple- 5 checked and so forth and wanted that bathtub to be five times 6 stronger than it needed to be; am I right? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And you didn't do that work for him -- 9 A. No. 10 Q. Am I right? Did he ever give you a reason why 11 he wanted a bathtub to be so strong? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Did it make any sense, was there any reason for 14 it that he stated to you? 15 A. No. 16 Q. If I understand correctly, sir, that was the 17 only time that you were in the Nottoway house; am I right? 18 A. The only time? 19 Q. Yes, sir. Was that the only time? Did you go 20 back after that? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. When was that, sir? 23 A. Well, after the work was done I was there, but I 24 don't remember going into the bathroom or anything. 25 Q. All right. You don't know who did the work? 113 1 A. No. 2 Q. So it was all about the same time, and then 3 after that, I take it you did not go back into the house? 4 A. I went to their home once or twice and talked to 5 Joe in the front yard and in the garage, but I don't remember 6 going inside. 7 Q. Now, sir, if I understand correctly, you were 8 aware that Joe Wesbecker read Time Magazine; am I correct? 9 A. I don't know. I know that I've been told that, 10 but I don't know whether I ever saw him read it. 11 Q. Do you know who told you that, sir? 12 A. No. 13 Q. If I further understand, sir, he talked with you 14 about a car, a red Chevrolet Monza; am I correct about that, 15 sir? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And he discussed that car with you from one end 18 to the other; correct? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And he wanted to sell the car to you for $1,000; 21 am I right? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And you put him off because you didn't have the 24 money? 25 A. Right. Yes. 114 1 Q. At about that same time, sir, didn't he tell you 2 that Standard Gravure was trying to take his hospitalization 3 away from him? 4 A. Yes. Along somewhere in that time. 5 Q. He told you about that on several occasions, 6 didn't he? 7 A. I don't remember how many. 8 Q. More than once? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And he told you that he was upset about it, 11 didn't he? 12 A. He couldn't afford to lose it. 13 Q. He told you that his doctor bills would put him 14 in bankruptcy if he didn't have that kind of hospitalization 15 and medical insurance from Standard Gravure, didn't he? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And that bothered him, didn't it, sir? 18 A. It seemed to. 19 Q. Mr. Montgomery, at the time of your mother's 20 funeral on August 9, 1989, he was there; am I right? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And if I understand correctly, that's the last 23 time that you actually saw him; am I correct? 24 A. I'm really hazy on that, but I believe it's 25 about right. 115 1 Q. And I thought I understood you to say, sir, that 2 on that occasion that he was shaken and he felt like the whole 3 world had crashed down on him; did I understand you to say 4 that, sir? 5 A. Well, I don't know how he felt but he was, you 6 know, sad. 7 Q. Did he discuss his feelings with you and open up 8 to you then, sir? 9 A. No. I don't remember it. 10 Q. Mr. Montgomery, do you remember that day, on 11 August 9, 1989, that someone wanted to take a picture of the 12 whole family? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And that he refused to be in the picture? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And said that, quote, no, I'm just a nephew, and 17 wouldn't be in the picture at all; is that true, sir? 18 A. Yes. Yes. 19 Q. Thank you, sir. Those are all the questions I 20 have. 21 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith? 22 23 24 25 116 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 116 1 FURTHER_EXAMINATION _______ ___________ 2 3 BY_MR._SMITH: __ ___ ______ 4 Q. Mr. Montgomery, was Joseph Wesbecker more than 5 just a nephew to you? 6 A. Yes. 7 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much, sir. You 8 may step down; you're excused. 9 Ladies and gentlemen, we're going to take a 10 lunch recess at this time. As I mentioned to you before, do 11 not permit anyone to discuss this trial with you, and any 12 attempt to do so should be reported to me. Do not discuss 13 this case among yourselves or form or express any opinions 14 about it until it is finally submitted to you. We'll stand in 15 recess till 2:00. 16 (LUNCH RECESS) 17 SHERIFF CECIL: The jury is now entering. 18 All jurors present. Court is back in session. 19 JUDGE POTTER: Please be seated. 20 Mr. Smith, do you want to call your next 21 witness. 22 MR. SMITH: Kevin Wesbecker. 23 MS. ZETTLER: He's not quite here yet, Judge. 24 He should be here in a minute. 25 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Since we have a minute, 117 1 I'll take a second to fuss at Mr. King. I was over having my 2 taco fix in the Galleria and, Mr. King, I noticed you didn't 3 have your button on. 4 JUROR KING: Yes, sir. I forgot it at home 5 today. 6 JUDGE POTTER: And I'm just picking on you 7 because I happened to notice you. That's really where it's 8 important that you wear it, because somebody will come up and 9 sit down next to you or not know. And, you know, when you're 10 sitting in that box everybody knows who you are; we don't need 11 it. I got my little seating chart here; I even know who you 12 are. And if you come in and forget it one day, just ask them 13 and they'll give you a little red thing. I say fuss at you, 14 but that's too strong a word. Okay? 15 JUROR KING: Okay. 16 MR. SMITH: I apologize, Your Honor. 17 JUDGE POTTER: It's not your fault. The jury 18 may not appreciate this, but compared to most trials -- I'm 19 sure you-all feel that we're always starting a little late and 20 taking too long, but compared to most trials this one has 21 started pretty much on time. The witnesses have showed up 22 when they're supposed to. 23 Are you Mr. Wesbecker, sir? Would you step down 24 here and raise your right hand, please. 25 118 1 JOSEPH KEVIN WESBECKER, after first being duly 2 sworn, was examined and testified as follows: 3 4 JUDGE POTTER: Would you have a seat there in 5 the witness box, keep your voice up and state your first and 6 last names loudly for the jury, please. 7 MR. WESBECKER: Okay. My name is Joseph Kevin 8 Wesbecker. 9 10 EXAMINATION ___________ 11 12 BY_MR._SMITH: __ ___ ______ 13 Q. How old a man are you, Mr. Wesbecker? 14 A. I'm thirty-one. 15 Q. And where do you live? 16 A. 8207 Madrone Avenue. 17 Q. You are the son of Joseph Wesbecker? 18 A. Yes, I am. 19 Q. Exactly what year were you born? 20 A. 1963. 21 Q. And where were your parents living when you were 22 born? Do you remember? 23 A. I believe on Larkwood Avenue. 24 Q. Your mother is Sue? 25 A. Chesser. 119 1 Q. Chesser. And what was her maiden name? 2 A. White. 3 Q. Would you tell us, do you have a brother? 4 A. Yes, I do. 5 Q. And his name is Jimmy? 6 A. Uh-huh. That's true. 7 Q. Is he -- what's his full name, James? 8 A. James Thomas. 9 Q. And when was he born? 10 A. '67. 11 Q. So you would be four years older than Jimmy? 12 A. Yes. That's correct. 13 Q. Will you start, Kevin, with telling us about 14 your recollection of your early childhood days and your 15 association with your father, Joe Wesbecker? 16 A. We were your typical family, had fun together, 17 recreation together, played ball, sports, bowling, movies, 18 went camping a few times. 19 Q. Do you remember when your dad was working for 20 Fawcett-Dearing Printing? 21 A. Vaguely I do. 22 Q. Do you remember when your dad went to work for 23 Standard Gravure? 24 A. Yes, I do. 25 Q. Was your dad an individual who worked a lot when 120 1 you were younger? 2 A. Not a whole lot when I was younger, I don't 3 think. 4 Q. When did you start noticing that your dad seemed 5 to be working long hours? 6 A. Right before high school. 7 Q. Do you remember what type of activities that 8 you -- that he would engage in with you and your brother and 9 your mother? 10 A. We played baseball, tennis. We went camping a 11 few times, a little bit of tennis, and we attempted a few 12 times of going fishing. 13 Q. Did you have any success fishing with the 14 family? You say you attempted a few times. 15 A. A little bit. 16 Q. Do you have a disability of some sort; is that 17 correct? 18 A. Yes. I have scoliosis. 19 Q. And is that a condition you were born with? 20 A. Yes. That's correct. 21 Q. Do you recall whether or not as a child you had 22 to have medical attention for that? 23 A. Yes, I did. 24 Q. Did this require you to be hospitalized for any 25 period of time? 121 1 A. No. 2 Q. What kind of medical attention were you given? 3 A. I was seeing a chiropractor and I was put into a 4 back brace, and I was in a back brace for I guess a year. 5 Q. Were your mom and dad concerned about and 6 supportive of your medical condition? 7 A. Yes, they were. 8 Q. Did your dad ever fuss at you or make fun of you 9 or belittle you in any way because of your disability? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Did he treat you normally? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Were you and your brother different? 14 A. We had different interests. 15 Q. In interests, all right. Tell the jury what 16 your interests were versus what your brother's interests were. 17 A. Well, he was sports oriented on watching all the 18 NFL teams, football, mainly football, watching, you know, the 19 television sports, Super Bowl, collecting the series on mugs 20 and the signs, keeping up with sports and knowing different 21 players' names. And that wasn't one of my interests; I'd 22 rather played the sport than, you know, really watch it on TV. 23 Q. How did your dad's interests fit there? 24 A. He fit in more with some of Jimmy's interests 25 than with mine. 122 1 Q. Did you feel that your dad was giving Jimmy 2 preference over you? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Did you feel that your dad loved you in the 5 early years? 6 A. Oh, yes. Yes, I did. 7 Q. Did you love him? 8 A. Yes, I did. 9 Q. Before the relationship ended in divorce, what 10 was the relationship between your mom and dad through most of 11 those early years? 12 A. Well, it went from being good to better, you 13 know, to where they weren't getting along and just kind of 14 bounced back and forth a lot. 15 Q. Of those years that they were together that you 16 recall, was there a lot of fights and arguments there in the 17 house? 18 A. There was several arguments. 19 Q. Any fights before there was a divorce? 20 A. There was probably a fight. 21 Q. A fistfight between the two of them? 22 A. The one time that I recall was the one time 23 where he came over and, you know, hit her outside. 24 Q. But that was after the divorce? 25 A. Right. But as far as before, I don't believe 123 1 there was. 2 Q. Did they generally get along while they were 3 married? 4 A. Most of the time; yes, they did. 5 Q. Did you see them yelling or screaming at each 6 other most of the time while they were married? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Did you see them yelling or screaming at each 9 other anytime before they were divorced? 10 A. Well, they had their differences, and most of 11 the time they would, just after an argument find something to 12 do and get busy doing it and just kind of forget and cool off 13 or so to speak. 14 Q. Do you know what the problem was between them as 15 to why they got a divorce? 16 A. Well, I know they kind of grew apart. 17 Q. Did you notice any changes in your dad in the 18 late '70s? 19 A. Just seemed, you know, he worked more, started 20 working more. 21 Q. Was he still of a generally pleasant disposition 22 to you and Jimmy? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Did your dad ever strike you? 25 A. Are you meaning as in punishment, whipping type 124 1 of... 2 Q. Well, for any reason. 3 A. Well, I've had the usual punishment, you know, 4 growing up. 5 Q. Was that normal punishment, though? 6 A. With a belt on the behind, yes. 7 Q. Was that anything different or did you feel like 8 you were abused as a child by your father? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Was your dad a mean man? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Was he a violent man? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Did you see him lose his temper to where he 15 became out of control? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Was he one to get angry quickly? 18 A. Sometimes. 19 Q. What would be the occasions when that would 20 occur? 21 A. As far as specific example, I don't know any to 22 give you. 23 Q. Would he cool off, generally? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Was he as quick to cool off as he was to lose 125 1 his temper? 2 A. He cooled off pretty quick. 3 Q. Would he lose his temper much or rarely? 4 A. Very rarely. 5 Q. Generally, was his disposition good or bad? 6 A. Usually was pretty good. 7 Q. Your and your dad's relationship cooled at one 8 point, did it not? 9 A. Yes, it did. 10 Q. Tell the jury about when that was. 11 A. I had graduated from high school and had 12 enrolled in University of Louisville and had went through one 13 semester, and I decided to sit out the second semester, and I 14 believe that would have been December/January, probably, of -- 15 going from '81 to '82. And when he found out that I had sat 16 out the second semester, we had words. 17 Q. This was after he and your mom had gotten a 18 divorce? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And was this in '81, in '80 -- when did you 21 graduate from high school? 22 A. '81. 23 Q. So this would have been between the '81 and '82 24 period? 25 A. Yes. 126 1 Q. Had your dad been on you to enroll in college? 2 A. Well, he was always talking to us about 3 education. 4 Q. What would he tell you about education? 5 A. That you could never be smart enough. You could 6 always -- well, he was always on me to open up a book and read 7 and anything towards, you know, learning something. 8 Q. Did your dad feel guilty or inadequate or 9 insecure about his modest education? 10 A. I believe he did. That's why he was, you know, 11 on us so much about cracking the books and doing good in 12 school. 13 Q. Do you know if he got anything or did any 14 studies past his GED? 15 A. I don't believe so. 16 Q. Did you ever see your dad reading or studying or 17 anything at home? 18 A. Yes, I did. 19 Q. What would he read? 20 A. Well, I know he was -- when he got his GED I 21 know he was studying for it. I remember seeing the books out 22 and Mom was helping him with it. 23 Q. When was that, apparently? 24 A. That's really hard to say. I'm not really sure 25 what year he actually received his GED. 127 1 Q. Well, do you remember how old you were? Were 2 you in junior high, high school? 3 A. I don't think I was in high school yet. 4 Q. Did he read magazines? 5 A. No. I believe they were workbooks for the class 6 or one of those question-and-answer kind of books. 7 Q. But other than the reading he did in connection 8 with his GED, would your dad normally read on a daily basis? 9 A. I don't know. I don't believe so. 10 Q. Did he even read the paper? 11 A. Yeah. We had the paper. 12 Q. Back to this dispute. As I understand it, you 13 were supposed to have enrolled in the second semester of 14 college but you didn't; is that right? 15 A. Yes. That's right. 16 Q. And he learned that you hadn't enrolled, or tell 17 the jury how that came about. 18 A. Well, after my first two weeks of not going to 19 school and staying home, I received a phone call and found out 20 that he had been riding by the house and he saw my car in the 21 driveway. And knowing what times my classes should have been, 22 I was supposed to be at school and he knew something was up, 23 so he called to find out why I wasn't at school and I had been 24 staying home for the last two weeks. 25 Q. Did he talk with you personally? 128 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Tell the jury about that conversation. 3 A. Well, he just asked why I was at home. He 4 thought I was supposed to be in school. And I explained to 5 him that I wasn't going; I decided to sit out and rethink what 6 I wanted to do. And he let me know that he didn't think that 7 was the right decision. And he presented, you know, his point 8 of view on it, being that I was passing up a -- you know, an 9 area where he didn't have the opportunity to do and at the 10 same time that I was insured through his work insurance and 11 that was only if I was a full-time student, and if I wasn't a 12 student at all, then I was taking a chance of getting him in 13 trouble at work. 14 Q. Did -- were you working at that time some? 15 A. Yes, I was. 16 Q. Where were you working then? 17 A. I was working for Sizzler family steakhouse and 18 I was working around 30 hours a week. 19 Q. Had he approved of your working the 30 hours a 20 week? 21 A. I didn't -- I never asked permission. I just 22 went and, you know, tried out for work. 23 Q. Was he paying for your college? 24 A. No, sir. 25 Q. How was your college being paid for? 129 1 A. Well, I had received -- someone that knew me had 2 brought to my attention that there was some kind of a program 3 for people who have some kind of a disability, that they were 4 able to get some help with their college tuition. And I went 5 and checked into the program, and because of my scoliosis I 6 was eligible, so I had help with my tuition. 7 Q. Were they going to pay all your tuition and all 8 your books? 9 A. That was correct. 10 Q. So you were going to get an education at no cost 11 to you or your family? 12 A. Well, I'm not sure how long, if there was a 13 limit on it, but I know at first they were going to pay for 14 everything. 15 Q. But you made the decision to discontinue your 16 work there at University of Louisville? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Did you explain to your dad why you decided not 19 to go to school? 20 A. Yes, I did. 21 Q. And what was your reasoning? 22 A. Well, I was interested in electronics and I 23 wanted to go to one of the two-year programs, and he didn't 24 think that was a good idea. 25 Q. So did you tell your dad that you would go back 130 1 to school? 2 A. Well, I told him I wanted to but I just didn't 3 know when that would be and whether it would be U of L or 4 maybe another choice. 5 Q. But you refused to go back that semester? 6 A. Yes, I did. 7 Q. Was it already a situation where you couldn't 8 have gone back or could you have picked up? 9 A. No. It was probably too late in the semester. 10 The classes were probably already filled. 11 Q. Had you even registered for school that second 12 semester? 13 A. Yes, I had. 14 Q. But you just never showed up for any classes? 15 A. I hadn't already filled my schedule but I was 16 set up to go. 17 Q. So how did the conversation end? 18 A. He was aggravated and mad at me. 19 Q. Did he tell you that he wasn't going to speak to 20 you anymore? 21 A. No. That was never -- he never said that. 22 Q. Did he tell you not to come around him or not 23 call him or what? 24 A. No. We just hung up the phone and that was 25 basically the end of the conversation. 131 1 Q. When did you talk to him next? This is early 2 '82. 3 A. The closest time after that probably would be 4 one of the times when he might have called to the house to 5 talk to Jimmy and I might have answered the phone or, you 6 know, I might have got on the phone just to say hi, but it was 7 just short and brief. 8 Q. Did he totally shut you off or did you sort of 9 shut him off, too, Kevin? 10 A. It was both of us. 11 Q. Was he totally to blame in your estrangement? 12 A. In my opinion? 13 Q. Yes, sir. 14 A. Well, I was being stubborn as well, so, I 15 mean... 16 Q. In what respect, were you not calling him? 17 A. Not listening to him. I mean, he was trying to 18 be a parent and explain to a typical teenager about the facts 19 of life and I wasn't prepared to listen. 20 Q. I'm not sure I understand. Did he say, "I'm not 21 going to speak to you again," or did you say, "I'm not going 22 to speak to you again"? 23 A. No. Neither one of us ever said that. 24 Q. I don't understand how this blew into a period 25 of several years where you didn't talk with each other, or was 132 1 it several years that you didn't talk to each other? 2 A. Well, we talked, I mean, on different occasions 3 but not for very long. 4 Q. And it would only be incidentally? 5 A. No. There was no certain times or dates, you 6 know, not no routine schedule or nothing like that. 7 Q. Would you call him on his birthday? 8 A. I sent him a few Christmas cards and a few 9 messages through my brother and talked to him on the phone a 10 few times, but that was really about it. 11 Q. Did he send you Christmas cards or gifts? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Did this thing continue to build where there 14 would be longer periods of time that you wouldn't talk with 15 each other? 16 A. I believe it ended up being close to seven 17 years. 18 Q. Are you saying that you went seven years from 19 the time you hung up the phone from talking to your dad about 20 college in '82, and then went seven years and you never had 21 any conversations? 22 A. Well, we did speak. I mean, we did not totally 23 quit speaking. I mean, we did speak but, you know, I didn't 24 make any attempts really to go over. It was only usually 25 through my brother. 133 1 Q. Well, did you know what had happened to him 2 during this period of time? 3 A. The only things I knew about him is what my 4 brother told me. I would ask him "how's Dad" and he'd tell 5 me, and he'd say, "Dad was asking about you." 6 Q. He would say that your dad was asking about you? 7 A. Uh-huh. 8 Q. Were you married at this time when you had this 9 conversation? 10 A. About the school? 11 Q. Yes. 12 A. No. 13 Q. Were you going with a girl at that time? 14 A. Yes, I was. 15 Q. And did she become your wife? 16 A. Yes, she did. 17 Q. And did she and your dad get along? 18 A. At first they did. 19 Q. What was the cause for them to quit getting 20 along? 21 A. My father wanted to come over and inspect the 22 house for some reason. He had been talking to someone or got 23 some kind of idea that Mom wasn't taking care of the house. 24 Q. When was this? 25 A. I was still working at Sizzler and I was still 134 1 in high school. 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. So he just wanted to come over and check things 4 out and make sure that, you know, the walls or -- I don't 5 know, some -- was damaged or something. So he received some 6 kind of order that let him come over and inspect the house. 7 And it was on a Sunday and I had to work, and I tried 8 everything I could to get off to be there and I couldn't get 9 off. So I sent my wife over to make sure -- not my wife, but 10 my wife now -- over to make sure to be with Mom so that I 11 would know what was going on, so I could call and check and 12 make sure that everybody was all right. 13 Q. Was this during the period where your mom and 14 dad were having legal disputes in connection with their 15 divorce? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. So when he saw that she was there, he wasn't too 18 happy. And he went in the rooms, and I had started -- I was 19 in the process of moving out and I had a water bed and I had 20 it disassembled laying against a wall, and he thought that 21 might be covering up something. So he wanted to move the 22 boards back to check and look around and she wanted to make 23 sure he didn't scratch anything. And she mentioned to him 24 about being careful about scratching it because it was mine, 25 and ever since then he really didn't want to have anything to 135 1 do with her. 2 Q. Did they have some screaming argument at that 3 time? 4 A. No, not really. 5 Q. Was there also in this period of time when you 6 graduated from high school and were starting college some 7 dispute between you and he and maybe your wife concerning 8 potentially having surgery on your back for your condition, 9 that you remember? 10 A. No. 11 Q. You don't know whether or not that played a 12 part -- you-all had arguments about that or are you saying you 13 didn't? 14 A. They never spoke of it. 15 Q. Did you know your dad had written you out of his 16 will? 17 A. Not until later in the years. 18 Q. When was it that you learned your dad had 19 written you out of his will? 20 A. I believe it was towards the last few years that 21 we quit -- that we wasn't speaking. 22 Q. So would that have been '87 and '88? 23 A. I believe that's true. 24 Q. How did you learn that? 25 A. I'm not exactly sure. I believe it was either 136 1 he said something or my brother said something, one of the two 2 would have told me. 3 Q. Did he say something to you directly? 4 A. Either he did or Jimmy did. I'm not really even 5 sure how I'd found out. 6 Q. Did you talk to him about that? Did you express 7 to him that you were upset about that? 8 A. I think at one point after I did find out, he 9 did mention it and we did speak of it and he let me know that 10 he had, and I told him that was his choice, if that's the way 11 he chose. 12 Q. Did he give you any reason for that? 13 A. I can't recall. 14 Q. After -- we've talked about the legal battles 15 that your mom and he had. Were there instances where they had 16 reconciliations and they got along better than they had 17 before? 18 A. After they actually received the divorce, they 19 seemed like they got along a lot better than they had when 20 they were married. 21 Q. And how long did that continue? 22 A. For a short while. 23 Q. Did they actually resume seeing each other and 24 dating and visiting? 25 A. He would come over to the house and things 137 1 seemed to be a lot better and kind of like they used to be 2 before all the trouble had began. 3 Q. What's your recollection as to when the divorce 4 was? 5 A. I'm not exactly sure on the date. 6 Q. Was it before you graduated from high school? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Did your dad continue to, as far as you know, 9 follow up with Jimmy and even though you and your dad were 10 estranged, have communications with Jimmy? 11 A. Yeah. They got along just fine. 12 Q. And did they continue to get along just fine 13 throughout this period of time? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. You were aware of Jimmy's problems with 16 exposure? 17 A. Yes, I was. 18 Q. And was your dad aware of that? 19 A. Yes, he was. 20 Q. And did you see your dad from time to time or 21 were you aware that your dad was trying to help Jimmy with 22 that problem? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Okay. You mentioned that this period of 25 estrangement between you and he went on for some time but it 138 1 didn't last forever? 2 A. That's true. 3 Q. All right. Tell the jury what happened where 4 your relationship changed. 5 A. Well, it seemed that one day we were at the 6 courthouse and he was there, we were both there because of 7 Jimmy, and we started just talking, asking each other how we 8 were doing. 9 Q. When would this have been, Kevin? 10 A. Back in '89 somewhere. 11 Q. Would it have been the summer of '89, June or 12 July? 13 A. May, June, somewhere in there. 14 Q. Go ahead. I'm sorry I interrupted you. 15 A. That's all right. And we just -- we started 16 talking. And I had made several attempts through the seven 17 years, you know, talking to him, trying to maybe break this 18 seven years, you know, of getting back and like a family like 19 it should be. And it just seemed that I asked again the 20 question of, you know, what do you think about trying to get 21 closer again, and he said -- you know, I said something about 22 maybe having lunch or something just to talk about things and 23 he sort of agreed to it this time, where the other times it 24 wasn't really -- I don't know, you could just tell there was 25 something there that maybe wasn't -- he didn't want to, and 139 1 this time it just gave me the feeling that, you know, maybe 2 this would work. So we went ahead and made, like, a set-up 3 time to meet a certain date and have lunch. 4 Q. And did you in fact meet and have lunch? 5 A. I'm sorry? 6 Q. Did you in fact meet and have lunch? 7 A. Yes, we did. 8 Q. And approximately how many times did you meet 9 with your dad after that? 10 A. After that date, three or four times. 11 Q. Were you aware of your dad's mental illness? 12 A. Yes, I was. 13 Q. How did you become aware of his mental illness? 14 A. Through my brother. 15 Q. Were you aware that he was seeing a 16 psychiatrist? 17 A. Yes, I was. 18 Q. Were you aware that he had been hospitalized 19 earlier on in connection with his mental illness? 20 A. Not right away, I wasn't. 21 Q. Well, after that to some degree were you -- were 22 you aware of it before this reconciliation, at least, in 1989? 23 A. I don't think so. 24 Q. Did you have discussions in June or May of 1989 25 concerning his mental health and mental condition? 140 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And tell the jury about that. 3 A. He just had told me that he was -- he was having 4 problems and that he was, you know, seeking help trying to 5 beat it, and I just have to kind of give him time and just 6 kind of pacify him, you know, and not push a lot. 7 Q. Did he tell you what problems he was having or 8 what he was trying to beat? 9 A. Well, he said he was depressed and that they had 10 put him on Lithium trying to help him out. 11 Q. Did he say whether or not he was getting any 12 relief as a result of that? 13 A. He said he was doing better but it still was a 14 long way to go, you know. 15 Q. Did you know at that time that your dad was off 16 on disability at Standard Gravure? 17 A. Yes, I was. 18 Q. And what was the nature of the reason that he 19 was on disability from Standard Gravure? 20 A. I thought it was stress related. 21 Q. Did your dad ever make any complaints about 22 working conditions at Standard Gravure, that you recall, to 23 you? 24 A. To me during that time, you mean? 25 Q. Yes. 141 1 A. Well, he just said that he had worked on the 2 folder and it was, you know, a difficult job or something like 3 that. 4 Q. Did he say that that had caused or contributed 5 to his depression and stress-related mental illness? 6 A. No. He says it just didn't seem -- it didn't 7 help the situation. 8 Q. Did he seem like when you were having these 9 lunches with him like he was trying to make an effort to get 10 better, Kevin? 11 A. He seemed like it. 12 Q. Did it appear that he was moving favorably 13 toward some type of reconciliation with you? 14 A. I didn't have any reason to believe that it 15 wouldn't, you know, be a total reconciliation. I thought 16 everything was going to be fine. 17 Q. Did you happen to go by the house there on 18 Nottoway Circle? 19 A. Yes, I did. 20 Q. Is that right, Nottoway Circle? 21 A. Nottoway Circle; yes, I did. 22 Q. When? 23 A. I think I stopped by there two different times, 24 and one time I was picking him up and the other time I believe 25 I had just stopped by for just a visit. 142 1 Q. Was that during the summer of 1989? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Was your dad living there at that time? 4 A. During the day, yes. 5 Q. And where was he staying at night? 6 A. With Brenda. 7 Q. On those two occasions that you were there, was 8 the electricity turned off? 9 A. No. He was -- one of the times he was watching 10 TV when I had stopped by. 11 Q. That summer in '89, was the water turned off? 12 A. Not during the time that I was there. I used 13 his rest room and everything seemed to work fine. 14 Q. Did your dad appear to be disheveled or unshaven 15 or unkempt during this period of time, May or June in 1989? 16 A. He was in dress pants and a regular T-shirt like 17 he always was. I mean, the house needed a woman in it. It 18 was kind of dirty. 19 Q. But how about his physical person? 20 A. Not that I can recollect. 21 Q. In June of 1989, did you see urine on the 22 carpets, urine stains on the carpet there in Nottoway Circle? 23 A. I don't think so. 24 Q. Did you see any cans where your dad might have 25 been urinating in the cans? 143 1 A. No. 2 Q. Other than being not cleaned regularly, was 3 there anything unusual about that house that you saw? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Was there anything really unusual about your 6 dad's condition back in May and June of 1989? 7 A. Not that I can really tell. 8 Q. Did he have a blank stare, where he appeared to 9 be looking through you? 10 A. I really don't have anything to compare it with, 11 all the years that we didn't see each other that much. 12 Q. Did he look different than he had ever looked? 13 A. He was kind of quiet. 14 Q. Was his face contorted and grotesque in any 15 manner? 16 A. No. 17 Q. There was another time that you saw your dad at 18 some club? When was that? 19 A. Yes. That was during the time frame that we had 20 started, you know, talking and seeing each other. 21 Q. Was that in the summer of 1989, also? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Where had you seen him? 24 A. It was at Shakey's. 25 Q. And were you there with your wife? 144 1 A. And a couple friends, yes. 2 Q. And did your dad go with you? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Tell the jury about running into him there. 5 A. Well, we were sitting at a table and one of my 6 friends nudged me and said, "I believe that's your dad," and I 7 said, "You're kidding." And he said, "No, look," and I looked 8 and sure enough it was him. He had walked by and didn't see 9 us because there was a wall between us. So I went up and 10 tugged him on the arm and he turned around and it was him, and 11 so we talked for a few minutes. 12 Q. Was that conversation friendly? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Did your dad appear dirty, unshaven, 15 deteriorated then? 16 A. No. 17 Q. What was he doing there? Did he have anybody 18 with him? 19 A. No. He was alone. 20 Q. Did he say why he was there? 21 A. Well, I had -- one of our meetings or lunches we 22 had, I had been telling him a little bit about what we were 23 doing and I had mentioned the place, and he said that he just 24 wanted to go there and see what it was like; he had never been 25 there. 145 1 Q. During this period of time would your dad come 2 by where you were working? 3 A. He stopped by a couple times, yes. 4 Q. And where were you working at that time? 5 A. Little Caesar's. 6 Q. And what was his appearance when he would come 7 by your place of employment? 8 A. About the same. 9 Q. When did you last see or talk to your dad? 10 A. I believe it was -- I took him out for an early 11 Father's Day dinner or lunch and I believe that was the last 12 time that we actually went out and ate together. 13 Q. Would that have been June of '89? 14 A. I believe so. 15 Q. And did you talk to him on the phone after that? 16 A. I don't -- I don't think so. 17 Q. Did you hear anything about him between that 18 dinner that you had with him and the time that this incident 19 occurred on September 14th, 1989? 20 A. I don't believe so. 21 Q. Jimmy didn't tell you anything about what he was 22 doing? 23 A. If he did, I don't remember. 24 Q. Did you talk with your mom, Sue, about what he 25 was doing during this period from June until August and 146 1 September 1989? 2 A. I can't think of anything. 3 Q. Did you ever see any guns at the house there on 4 Nottoway? 5 A. No, I didn't. 6 Q. Did you ever see your dad express any interest 7 in guns? 8 A. No. 9 Q. One other thing: There was an incident when you 10 were a little boy where Jimmy had gotten in a fight with two 11 other boys? 12 A. Uh-huh. 13 Q. And tell the jury about that. 14 A. Well, Jimmy had came home and apparently he had 15 been beaten up by several boys, one of the boys and his 16 brother, and I believe there were some friends that might have 17 been around that helped out. And he came home and he had a 18 black eye and his lips were -- you know, he was bleeding and 19 he was crying. He was pretty tore up. And, you know, we 20 thought it was kind of unfair for him to be jumped on by 21 several boys, especially when some of the boys were bigger 22 than he was. So we went over to the house and got the boy to 23 come outside, and Jimmy and I both -- we got both the boys and 24 we beat them up. 25 Q. Did your dad participate in that? 147 1 A. He drove us over there. 2 Q. But as far as getting out of the car, did he 3 even get out of the car? 4 A. He might have stood by the car but he never, you 5 know, went any further than that. 6 Q. Did he ever touch any of the other boys? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Was your dad enraged about this? 9 A. Well, he just thought it was unfair odds. 10 Q. Were you mad about this? 11 A. Well, yes, I was. 12 Q. And you were taking up for Jimmy, your little 13 brother? 14 A. Yes, I was. 15 Q. Thank you, Kevin. I appreciate it. 16 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher. 17 18 EXAMINATION ___________ 19 20 BY_MR._STOPHER: __ ___ ________ 21 Q. Mr. Wesbecker, you were the oldest son of Joe 22 Wesbecker; am I right about that, sir? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And I think your full name, as you -- I believe 25 you indicated earlier is Kevin Joseph Wesbecker? 148 1 A. It's Joseph Kevin. 2 Q. Joseph Kevin. I'm sorry, sir. You were named 3 then for your father? 4 A. I think so. 5 Q. As I understand it, sir, your father would show 6 his anger with people by stopping speaking with them; is that 7 true, sir? 8 A. Yes. Somewhat. 9 Q. You weren't the only person that he cut off that 10 way, were you, sir? 11 A. No, I'm not. 12 Q. To show his anger, for example, with your 13 mother's parents, he stopped speaking to her father, didn't 14 he, sir? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. How long did that go on, sir, that he stopped 17 speaking to his father-in-law? 18 A. Pretty much the majority of all the years that I 19 was aware of. 20 Q. All of your father-in-law's life, basically; am 21 I correct, sir? 22 A. Pretty close, yes. 23 Q. Your father-in-law was Mr. White? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Are you aware that Joe Wesbecker stopped 149 1 speaking to your grandmother, Martha Wesbecker? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Do you know how long he stopped speaking to her? 4 A. Not in terms of years I don't, but it was quite 5 awhile. 6 Q. And in your case, sir, as I understand it, he 7 stopped speaking to you for seven years; am I right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. During that seven years you tried to initiate 10 communications with him; am I correct? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. You would try to get Jimmy to intervene and to 13 get him to loosen and meet you halfway, wouldn't you? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And he refused to do it, didn't he? 16 A. I believe so. 17 Q. During that period of time, sir, if I understand 18 correctly, or before that period of time, sir, that he stopped 19 speaking with you, problems developed with your brother, 20 Jimmy, when he was about how old, sir? 21 A. Somewhere between the ages of 12 and 14, 22 somewhere in there. 23 Q. If I understand, sir, he was born in 1967? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. So in about 1979 to 1981, along in there, sir? 150 1 A. Yes. That's correct. 2 Q. That would be about the time of the divorce 3 between your father and your mother? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And if I understand correctly, that was very 6 upsetting to your father, Joe Wesbecker? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. He didn't know how to handle the situation, did 9 he, sir? 10 A. No. 11 Q. On more than one occasion he whipped your 12 brother with a belt for exposing himself or flashing in the 13 neighborhood, didn't he, sir? 14 A. Yes, he did. 15 Q. He would complain on other occasions that it was 16 your mother's fault that Jimmy acted that way, wouldn't he, 17 sir? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And then on top of all of that, the neighbors 20 would be complaining about your brother even living in the 21 neighborhood; isn't that true, sir? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And your father told him that if he continued 24 acting like that he was going to have to send him to Boys 25 Haven; isn't that true, sir? 151 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Now, if I understand correctly, sir, you at 3 about the same time that you stopped going to U of L, which 4 was again about the same time that Jimmy's problems were 5 developing, correct, sir, 1981, 1982, along in there? 6 A. Well, his problems had started a little bit 7 before that. 8 Q. Jimmy's problems had? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And at about that same time, sir, were your 11 health problems beginning to get more severe? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Isn't that about the time that you discussed 14 surgery with Doctor Leatherman on your back? 15 A. Yes, I did discuss that. 16 Q. And was that in the early 1980s, sir? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And at about that same time, sir, you had a 19 girlfriend who you eventually married, I believe, and you're 20 probably still married to her, if I understand correctly? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Her name is Mary, and I've forgotten her last 23 name, sir. 24 A. Her maiden name? 25 Q. Yes, sir. 152 1 A. Lickteig. 2 Q. Lickteig. And if I understand you correctly, 3 sir, after this incident at Sue's house when your father went 4 there and checked things out and wanted to look behind the 5 wall, Mary was there, and from that point on he never spoke to 6 her, did he, sir? 7 A. No, sir. 8 Q. So he didn't speak to Martha, his mother; to 9 you, his oldest son; to his father-in-law; and to your wife; 10 am I correct, sir? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Had you done anything to him to deserve that 13 kind of treatment from him, sir? 14 A. No. 15 Q. He just did it, didn't he? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. Now, Mr. Wesbecker, if I understand correctly, 18 sir, during the seven years, the only information that you 19 would have about him from 1981 or 1982 would be incidental 20 information that you might hear from your brother; am I right 21 about that? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And during that period of time in the early 24 1980s, after he had stopped speaking to you, do you recall an 25 occasion when he filed some charges against your mother for 153 1 terroristic phone calls? Do you remember that, sir? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And do you recall that he asked you to come and 4 to testify on his behalf at the trial or the hearing on those 5 criminal charges? 6 A. Yes, I do. 7 Q. And do you recall that he told you that if you 8 did come and testify against your mother that things could be 9 the way they had been? 10 A. Yes, I do. 11 Q. And you refused; am I correct, sir? 12 A. Yes, I did. 13 Q. You weren't about to give testimony that would 14 be unfair or untruthful at his request, were you, sir? 15 A. That's correct. 16 Q. Now, I'm a little unclear, sir, as to whether or 17 not you're telling us -- well, let me back up, sir. 18 During the seven years that you and he did not 19 speak, you would send him Christmas cards but he wouldn't 20 return it; am I right? 21 A. That's true. 22 Q. Was the same also true on your birthday, sir? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. No communication from him at all; is that true? 25 A. Yes. 154 1 Q. Now, in the year 1989, at some point you and he 2 happened to meet at the courthouse, I assume the courthouse 3 across the street; is that right, sir? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And there was some sort of a hearing or a trial 6 with regard to your brother? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. The two of you happened to meet and you 9 initiated the move? You went to him and asked if there was a 10 possibility that you could get together; am I right? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And then I thought I understood you to say that 13 during that period of time or thereafter you might talk to him 14 on the phone on three or four or five occasions; is that 15 accurate, sir? 16 A. I believe so. 17 Q. Would you call him or would he call you? 18 A. I think I called him. 19 Q. You were the one that initiated the contact; 20 right? 21 A. From home I did. 22 Q. In those phone calls, sir, he discussed work 23 problems with you, didn't he? 24 A. Well, he wasn't working at that time. 25 Q. But didn't he discuss problems that he had at 155 1 work, including the folder? 2 A. He had briefly mentioned it. 3 Q. He told you that he was on disability, didn't 4 he? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And didn't he tell you that they were watching 7 him like a hawk to see if he was really having real problems? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Those are his words as best you recall, aren't 10 they, sir? 11 A. I don't remember exactly -- his exact words. 12 Q. That's pretty close, though, isn't it, sir? 13 A. But it's close. Uh-huh. 14 Q. Did he tell you how they were watching him and 15 who was watching him? 16 A. That, I'm not sure of. 17 Q. If I understand correctly, sir, you went in his 18 house at Nottoway on one occasion; am I right? 19 A. It was two. 20 Q. Two occasions. Once to pick him up? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And then one time you just dropped by? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Was the phone connected in that house, sir? 25 A. No. 156 1 Q. There was no phone? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Didn't he also tell you, sir, on those telephone 4 calls or in those telephone calls or on the occasions -- the 5 one or two times that you went to his house, that he on 6 several occasions had seen things that weren't there? 7 A. I don't recall. 8 Q. Do you recall giving your deposition in this 9 case, sir, and testifying under oath, the same oath that 10 you're under today, on November 9, 1992? Do you remember 11 that, sir? 12 A. Yes, I do. 13 Q. Let me see if you remember answering these 14 questions, sir. Line 16 at Page 162: "Question: And what 15 did he tell you? 16 "Answer: He just had said that on occasion he 17 had seen some things that wasn't there. 18 "Question: Such as what? 19 "Answer: I'm not sure if he meant blurry vision 20 or any kind of certain objects. I don't know what kind of 21 objects." 22 Did you give that testimony under oath, sir? 23 A. Yes. Under oath, yes. 24 Q. Is that accurate, sir? 25 A. Yes. I had no reason to say anything other than 157 1 that. 2 Q. Is it still accurate today, sir? 3 A. If I said it was then, yes. 4 Q. Mr. Wesbecker, during the years, the seven years 5 that you and your father did not speak, you went from being 6 single to being a married man, which you still are today; am I 7 right, sir? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. You and Mary were married in a wedding ceremony; 10 am I correct, sir? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Did you invite your father? 13 A. I believe I did. 14 Q. Did he attend? 15 A. No. 16 Q. That's the only time you ever got married, sir? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Now, sir, if I understand correctly, the last 19 time that you saw your father was sometime during the summer 20 of 1989, and you and Mary and a friend or two were in the 21 lounge at Shakey's; am I right? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And just by chance, your father was there; am I 24 correct? 25 A. Yes. 158 1 Q. Someone pointed him out to you? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And he spoke to you and to your other friends; 4 am I right? 5 A. No. He only spoke with me. 6 Q. And he refused to speak to Mary; am I right? 7 A. Well, he really wasn't in speaking distance. 8 Q. Again, sir, referring to your deposition, Page 9 176, Line 9: "So the summer of 1989? 10 "Answer: Right. 11 "Question: Did he stay with you and Mary at 12 Shakey's? 13 "Answer: No. He spoke to everybody basically 14 but her, and we talked for a minute and I invited him to the 15 table but he said no, he didn't think so. 16 "Question: Why wouldn't he speak to her? 17 "Answer: He was bitter towards her because she 18 was there at the house that day. 19 "Question: That was four years earlier. 20 "Answer: He just after that would never really 21 have anything to do with her." 22 Did you give that testimony under oath, sir? 23 A. Yes, I did. 24 Q. Is that accurate? 25 A. Yes, it is. 159 1 Q. Those are all the questions I have, sir. 2 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith, anything further? 3 MR. SMITH: Yes. 4 5 FURTHER_EXAMINATION _______ ___________ 6 7 BY_MR._SMITH: __ ___ ______ 8 Q. Kevin, did your father ever take any physical 9 action against your wife? 10 A. Any physical action? 11 Q. Yeah. Did he ever hit her? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Did he ever threaten her? 14 A. No. 15 Q. On those occasions where he spanked Jimmy in 16 connection with the problem he had in exposing himself, was 17 that in a matter of discipline or was it a matter of beating? 18 A. Discipline. 19 Q. Was your dad genuinely frustrated about this? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. As far as you know, was your dad doing 22 everything he could to get Jimmy the psychiatric medical 23 treatment he needed for this problem? 24 A. Yes, he was. 25 Q. Do you know of any time that he didn't stand by 160 1 Jimmy to try to help him with his disability? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Your grandfather, your mom's father that your 4 dad wouldn't speak to, isn't the reason that he wouldn't speak 5 to him is because he was an alcoholic? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And that he didn't want him around the family 8 because he was afraid for the family? 9 A. I believe that's true, yes. 10 Q. Is your grandmother, Martha, stubborn? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And you're stubborn? 13 A. Somewhat. 14 Q. Was your dad stubborn? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Was a lot of this estrangement a result of being 17 a bad person or being stubborn? 18 MR. STOPHER: Objection, if the Court please. 19 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. It's leading. 20 Q. What's the reason for the estrangement, as far 21 as you're concerned? 22 MR. STOPHER: It's been asked and answered, Your 23 Honor. 24 JUDGE POTTER: It's Mr. Smith's last question. 25 A. I'm sorry? 161 1 Q. What was the reason for this estrangement, in 2 part? 3 A. I believe it was being stubborn. 4 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much, sir. You 5 may step down, you're excused. 6 Mr. Smith, you want to call your next witness? 7 MR. SMITH: May we approach the bench, Your 8 Honor? 9 JUDGE POTTER: Sure. 10 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 11 MR. SMITH: Since Ms. Chesser couldn't be here, 12 we've had to try to juggle our schedule into that, and I think 13 we have a witness coming at 3:30; is that right? 14 JUDGE POTTER: You want to take a break? 15 MR. SMITH: Yes. 16 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. 17 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 18 JUDGE POTTER: Ladies and gentlemen, we're going 19 to go ahead and take the afternoon break and we'll take it 20 till 3:30. As I mentioned to you before, do not allow anyone 21 to talk to you or mention to you about this trial, and any 22 attempt to do so should be reported to me. As I've stated 23 before, do not discuss this case among yourselves or with 24 anyone else, and do not form or express opinions about it 25 until it has been submitted to you. Stand in recess till 162 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 163 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3:30. 162 1 (RECESS; BENCH DISCUSSION) 2 JUDGE POTTER: Let me just say, this thing will 3 work if we talk one at a time and each person talks straight 4 into a microphone. 5 MR. SMITH: The witness that we have scheduled 6 for this afternoon, it's been brought to our attention that he 7 isn't going to be able to get here this afternoon, Your Honor. 8 JUDGE POTTER: Is there a problem? Is he an 9 easy one or something? 10 MR. STOPHER: No. I wasn't prepared for him 11 anyway. He's not on the list anywhere. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Who is he, Ms. Zettler? 13 MS. ZETTLER: He's a former co-worker of Mr. 14 Wesbecker at Standard Gravure. His name is Green. 15 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Can you get him and 16 everybody else you need on tomorrow let's say before noon or 17 so or one o'clock before we switch to Lilly? 18 MS. ZETTLER: Yes, Judge. 19 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Well, I'll just tell them 20 -- I'll just tell them we got the shift and we'll finish it up 21 tomorrow and I'll go ahead and send them home today. 22 MR. SMITH: I apologize. 23 JUDGE POTTER: That's okay. 24 MR. FREEMAN: Your Honor, would it be all right 25 if I leave at noon tomorrow if we're not finished? 163 1 JUDGE POTTER: You're free to leave this 2 afternoon, Mr. Freeman. 3 MR. FREEMAN: Why, that hurts my feelings. 4 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 5 SHERIFF CECIL: The jurors are entering. All 6 jurors are present. 7 JUDGE POTTER: Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, 8 I knew when I said something earlier that, you know, things 9 had run pretty smoothly for a trial, I knew I shouldn't have 10 done that. All right. And what has happened, there's been a 11 little mix-up and it really isn't going to make much 12 difference to you because the Plaintiffs have indicated that 13 very shortly they're going to shift from witnesses here in 14 Louisville connected with Standard Gravure to witnesses 15 connected with Lilly. And I had planned after talking with 16 them that that break was going to come very close to the 17 weekend. What we're going to do is have that break, finish 18 one group of witnesses tomorrow and then pick up with 19 witnesses connected with Eli Lilly on Monday. It really just 20 works better if you come to a shift in a case to, you know, 21 not squeeze in a half hour of testimony on this topic and then 22 have a weekend and pick it up again. And they tell me that 23 they can finish the witnesses that the Plaintiffs have 24 connected with Standard Gravure, Mr. Wesbecker, Louisville, 25 Kentucky, tomorrow. 164 1 And so what we're going to do is take the 2 evening recess a little early tonight. And what I want you to 3 do is -- I'm just telling you why I'm doing it because even if 4 we had another hour tonight, I'd be letting you go at 10:30 or 5 11:00 tomorrow because I do want to have the weekend break 6 coordinate with this shift when they change topics. 7 I'm going to give you the same admonition I've 8 given you before, and that admonition is do not permit anybody 9 to speak to or communicate with you on any topic connected 10 with this trial, and any attempt to do so should be reported 11 to me. I want to emphasize that that includes, you know, 12 people that are just curious or your family. You know, just 13 anybody that wants to talk to you, tell them I can't talk 14 about the case, you know, and if they get persistent or 15 something, you just get ugly. Also, don't let anybody 16 communicate with you by the television or the newspaper or the 17 radio. Don't discuss it with each other, do not form or 18 express opinions about it. I will see you-all at 9:00 19 tomorrow morning. 20 (PROCEEDINGS TERMINATED THIS DATE AT 3:40 P.M.) 21 * * * 22 23 24 25 165 1 STATE OF KENTUCKY )( )( Sct. 2 COUNTY OF JEFFERSON )( 3 I, JULIA K. McBRIDE, Notary Public, State of 4 Kentucky at Large, hereby certify that the foregoing 5 Transcript of the Proceedings was taken at the time and place 6 stated in the caption; that the appearances were as set forth 7 in the caption; that prior to giving testimony the witnesses 8 were first duly sworn; that said testimony was taken down by 9 me in stenographic notes and thereafter reduced under my 10 supervision to the foregoing typewritten pages and that said 11 typewritten transcript is a true, accurate and complete record 12 of my stenographic notes so taken. 13 I further certify that I am not related by blood 14 or marriage to any of the parties hereto and that I have no 15 interest in the outcome of captioned case. 16 My commission as Notary Public expires 17 December 21, 1996. 18 Given under my hand this the__________day of 19 ______________________, 1994, at Louisville, Kentucky. 20 21 22 23 24 _____________________________ 25 NOTARY PUBLIC 166 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25