1 1 NO. 90-CI-06033 JEFFERSON CIRCUIT COURT DIVISION ONE 2 3 4 JOYCE FENTRESS, et al PLAINTIFFS 5 6 VS TRANSCRIPT_OF_THE_PROCEEDINGS __________ __ ___ ___________ 7 8 9 SHEA COMMUNICATIONS, et al DEFENDANTS 10 11 *** 12 13 14 FRIDAY, OCTOBER 7, 1994 15 VOLUME X 16 17 * * * 18 19 20 _____________________________________________________________ 21 REPORTER: JULIA K. McBRIDE Coulter, Shay, McBride & Rice 22 1221 Starks Building 455 South Fourth Avenue 23 Louisville, Kentucky 40202 (502) 582-1627 24 FAX: (502) 587-6299 25 2 1 2 I_N_D_E_X _ _ _ _ _ 3 WITNESS: SUE_CHESSER _______ ___ _______ 4 Examination by Mr. Smith................................. 5 5 Examination by Mr. Stopher............................... 40 Further Examination by Mr. Smith......................... 64 6 WITNESS: JIMMY_GRAHAM _______ _____ ______ 7 Examination by Mr. Smith................................. 69 8 Examination by Mr. Stopher............................... 80 Further Examination by Mr. Smith......................... 93 9 WITNESS: THOMAS_L._EVANS _______ ______ __ _____ 10 Examination by Mr. Smith................................. 95 11 Examination by Mr. Stopher...............................102 Further Examination by Mr. Smith.........................105 12 Hearing in Chambers......................................106 13 Reporter's Certificate...................................111 14 15 * * * 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 1 2 A_P_P_E_A_R_A_N_C_E_S _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 3 4 FOR THE PLAINTIFFS: 5 PAUL L. SMITH Suite 745 6 Campbell Center II 8150 North Central Expressway 7 Dallas, Texas 75206 8 NANCY ZETTLER 1405 West Norwell Lane 9 Schaumburg, Illinois 60193 10 FOR THE DEFENDANT: 11 EDWARD H. STOPHER 12 Boehl, Stopher & Graves 2300 Providian Center 13 Louisville, Kentucky 40202 14 JOE C. FREEMAN, JR. Freeman & Hawkins 15 4000 One Peachtree Center 303 Peachtree Street, N.E. 16 Atlanta, Georgia 30308 17 ALSO PRESENT: 18 DR. W. LEIGH THOMPSON 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 4 1 The Transcript of the Proceedings, taken before 2 The Honorable John Potter in the Multipurpose Courtroom, Old 3 Jail Office Building, Louisville, Kentucky, commencing on 4 Friday, October 7, 1994, at approximately 9:05 A.M., said 5 proceedings occurred as follows: 6 7 * * * 8 9 SHERIFF CECIL: The jurors are now entering. 10 All jurors present. Court is now in session. 11 JUDGE POTTER: Please be seated. Good morning, 12 ladies and gentlemen. Any of you have any difficulty with the 13 admonition about letting people communicate with you about 14 this? How about you, Ms. Felker, did you have any difficulty? 15 JUROR FELKER: No, sir. 16 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith, do you want to call 17 your next witness? 18 MR. SMITH: Yes, Your Honor. We'd call Sue 19 Chesser. 20 JUDGE POTTER: Ma'am, would you step up here and 21 raise your right hand, please. 22 23 SUE CHESSER, after first being duly sworn, was 24 examined and testified as follows: 25 5 1 JUDGE POTTER: Would you please have a seat 2 there. You've got to walk around to the witness box. Please 3 be sure and keep your voice up very loud; all right? And 4 would you state your full name for the jury and then spell 5 your first and last names for them, please. 6 MS. CHESSER: Sue Katherine Chesser. S-U-E, 7 C-H-E-S-S-E-R. 8 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. And answer Mr. Smith's 9 questions. 10 11 EXAMINATION ___________ 12 13 BY_MR._SMITH: __ ___ ______ 14 Q. How old of a lady are you, ma'am? 15 A. I'm 52. 16 Q. And where do you live? 17 A. I live here in Louisville on Manslick Road. 18 Q. How long have you been a resident of Louisville, 19 Kentucky? 20 A. I guess most of my life. 21 Q. And do you have children? 22 A. Yes, I do. 23 Q. Are you married? 24 A. No, sir; I'm a widow. 25 Q. Were you married to Joe Wesbecker, Ms. Chesser? 6 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. And did you after you divorced Mr. Wesbecker 3 remarry Mr. Chesser? 4 A. Yes, I did. 5 Q. And has he since died? 6 A. Yes, he has. 7 Q. All right. Tell the jury when and where you 8 first met Joe Wesbecker. 9 A. I met Joe when we went to St. George parochial 10 school together. 11 Q. Were you and Joe the same age? 12 A. He was a month older than I was. 13 Q. Were you and he actually in school together? 14 A. We weren't in the same classes but we went to 15 the same school, and I knew him from there. 16 Q. Do you remember your first recollection of Joe 17 Wesbecker? 18 A. I guess my first recollection was a few years 19 later when I was in high school. I went to Shawnee High, and 20 he and another of his friends used to come by and pick us up 21 and take us to Mike's Drugstore after school and we'd all have 22 a hamburger and Coke. 23 Q. Can you tell us when that was that you first 24 started going out with Joe after school? 25 A. I guess that was back in 1958 and '59. There 7 1 was a lot of us kids that ran around together. 2 Q. Before you knew -- let's see. Was St. George 3 school a middle school? 4 A. No, sir. It was a grade school. 5 Q. Grade school? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And do you remember Joe in grade school or did 8 you later learn that you and he were in the same school? 9 A. I knew we were in the same school then but we 10 weren't really -- we didn't really know each other personally. 11 Q. Did Joe have a reputation when you met him? 12 A. In a way, yes; I guess he was kind of classified 13 as a little on the wild side. 14 Q. A little on the wild side? 15 A. A little. He was kind of a daredevil. 16 Q. In what way? 17 A. He would drive a little too fast. He laughed -- 18 it seemed like he laughed all the time and was always -- he 19 was very witty. He always had something funny to say. 20 Q. Did he have friends? 21 A. He had a lot of friends. 22 Q. Was he a loner at that time? 23 A. No, sir. He always had some friends with him. 24 Q. Did he have periods of moodiness or sulking when 25 he was in high school and when you knew him? 8 1 A. Not that I know of, sir, no. 2 Q. Was he tough? Was he a fighter in school? 3 A. I never knew of him actually getting into 4 fights, but I'm sure he wouldn't have walked away. 5 Q. But was he known as a bully or anything of that 6 nature? 7 A. No, sir. Never. 8 Q. Was he known as a thug? 9 A. No, sir. 10 Q. What attracted you to Joe, his car, his clothes; 11 what was it? 12 A. No, not his car. He picked us up one day and 13 his transmission fell out and we all ended up taking the bus. 14 No, I guess it was his kind of carefree attitude. He was 15 always laughing and, like I said, he always had something 16 funny to say, and he was just -- he was fun to be around. 17 Q. When did you and he start dating seriously? 18 A. It wasn't until after I graduated high school 19 and I was working, and I was bowling in a league on Monday 20 nights and Joe had come there with a friend of his, and we 21 talked, and he said, "Do you mind if I call you sometime," and 22 I said sure. 23 Q. Can you give us an idea of when that was? When 24 did you graduate from high school? 25 A. 1960. And I guess this was early in '61. 9 1 Q. And where were you working at the time? 2 A. National Life Accident Insurance Company. 3 Q. And what were you doing for them? 4 A. I was a secretary. 5 Q. When you and Joe renewed your acquaintance, was 6 he working? 7 A. He had just got a job at Fawcett-Dearing 8 printing company. 9 Q. Was Joe in the league with you or did he just 10 happen to show up at the bowling alley? 11 A. No. He just happened to show up there. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Wait just a second, Mr. Smith. I 13 sent out a note to see if they could turn up the thing a 14 little bit and it was obviously a mistake. We'll wait till 15 somebody comes back. I sent out a note and asked them if 16 they'd turn up the volume a little bit. Charles, will you 17 tell them it was a bad idea? 18 MR. SMITH: Do you want me to proceed, Your 19 Honor? 20 JUDGE POTTER: No. We'll wait till you get 21 where people can hear you. 22 Go ahead, Mr. Smith. 23 Q. Do you remember when you and Joe got engaged? 24 A. I guess it was about six months after we started 25 seeing each other. 10 1 Q. So would this have been in '61? 2 A. Yes, sir. 1961. 3 Q. And when were you married? 4 A. We were married July 29th of 1961. 5 Q. Did you have a formal engagement where he gave 6 you an engagement ring or anything of that nature? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Did you go on a honeymoon when you were married? 9 A. No. We both had to go back to work Monday 10 morning. 11 Q. Did you meet Joe's family -- 12 A. Yes, I did. 13 Q. -- during that period of time? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. And did you see anything odd or unusual about 16 his family? 17 A. No, sir. 18 Q. Did you like his family? 19 A. Yes. They seemed like they were very nice when 20 I met them. 21 Q. Did there seem to be an unusual amount of stress 22 or discord within the family during that period of time? 23 A. No, not really. There was quite a few of his 24 aunts living together, and when you have a lot of women in the 25 same house you're going to have a little squabbling but 11 1 nothing unusual. 2 Q. Did Joe complain about his family life or his 3 background at all? 4 A. No. 5 Q. You met Joe's mother and his grandmother? 6 A. Yes, I did. 7 Q. Did he appear closer to either one of them? 8 A. Yes. He was closer to his grandmother. His 9 mother worked nights and I guess he was around his grandmother 10 a whole lot more than he was his mother. 11 Q. Where did you and Joe first live when you got 12 married? 13 A. His uncle owned a house on Bowen Avenue and he 14 let us rent the house there. 15 Q. When was your first child born? 16 A. Was born January the 8th of 1963. 17 Q. Describe for us, please, generally, Ms. Chesser, 18 the relationship between you and Joe until your first child, 19 Kevin, was born. 20 A. We had a very good relationship. We didn't have 21 a lot of money back then and, in fact, there for a long time 22 we didn't even own a car. And our friends kind of made fun of 23 us because we didn't have a car, but we'd hop on a bus and go 24 downtown and go to a movie. And we did a lot of walking. And 25 we had some good times. 12 1 Q. During that early period of time when you and 2 Joe were together, did you-all ever discuss your plans for the 3 future, your dreams, your hopes, your goals? 4 A. Yes, we did. 5 Q. Tell the jury what Joe's dreams, hopes and goals 6 were at that time. 7 A. Well, he wanted to be successful in his job. He 8 wanted to give his family everything he could possibly give 9 them. When he had kids, he wanted them to have the best 10 education possible to achieve a lot of things he never was 11 able to. He had I guess dreams like everyone does. 12 Q. Did you remain in the house on Bowen Avenue 13 until Kevin was born? 14 A. No, sir; we didn't. We found another apartment 15 on Larkwood, and we lived there for several years and Kevin 16 was born there. 17 Q. On Lockwood? 18 A. Larkwood. Uh-huh. 19 Q. Was Kevin's birth normal and your pregnancy 20 normal? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. When was it that you became aware that Kevin had 23 a scoliosis condition? 24 A. It wasn't until he was around eight years old. 25 He had to have a hernia operation, and we took him to St. 13 1 Joe's Hospital and they took X-rays, and they called us down 2 to the office and told us he had scoliosis. 3 Q. At the time Kevin was born, where was Joe 4 working? 5 A. He was working at Fawcett-Dearing printing 6 company. 7 Q. Did Joe at any time that he was working at 8 Fawcett-Dearing printing company complain about solvents or 9 exposure to chemicals or anything of that nature? 10 A. Yes, he did. He complained about the fumes 11 there. They didn't have proper ventilation, and he said -- 12 well, some of the pressmen passed out because of the lack of 13 ventilation there. 14 Q. When was it -- I believe it was, that Joe 15 started with Standard Gravure in 1971; is that according to 16 your recollection? 17 A. Yes, sir. I believe it was '71 or '72. It was 18 right there. 19 Q. And by 1971, I guess Jimmy had been born? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. When was Jimmy born? 22 A. He was born May the 9th of '67. 23 Q. Describe generally for the jury your family 24 relationship between the time that Kevin was born and the time 25 that Joe went to work at Standard Gravure. 14 1 A. Exactly what do you mean? 2 Q. Well, what type of things would you do, how was 3 Joe's attitude. Let's start with that. 4 A. Okay. Well, we did a lot of things. We took 5 the kids on camping trips. We all liked to camp. A lot of 6 times we would get the neighborhood children around there and 7 go off to a school yard and stop at Convenient and get some 8 potato chips and Cokes, and then we'd go and play ball. In 9 fact, a lot of the neighbor kids would come by and knock on 10 the door and ask if Joe could come out and play with them. 11 They all liked Joe. He was -- he was fun. 12 Q. Did Joe love his kids? 13 A. Yes, he did. They were very special to him. 14 Q. And did he seem to enjoy the children in the 15 neighborhood? 16 A. Very much so. 17 Q. And did they enjoy him? 18 A. Yes, they did. The parents said they never 19 worried about their kids, you know, when they was up there 20 with us. 21 Q. Did Joe ever have any periods of moodiness or 22 depression or exhibit any unusual behaviors or habits up to 23 1971? 24 A. The only time he would kind of get a little bit 25 down was when rumors would go around that maybe the plant was 15 1 going to be sold or he was going to be without a job. That 2 always upset him, but that was about the only time he would, 3 you know, act in any way upset like that. Most of the time he 4 was up and we were all, you know, -- we had our little ups and 5 downs, but most of the time everything, you know, was good. 6 Q. Did you see Joe get in any fights or have any 7 arguments with anybody up to 1971? 8 A. No, sir. 9 Q. What about Joe's relationship with your family 10 during this period of time? 11 A. He got along fairly well with my parents. We 12 went up -- they lived in Indianapolis and we went up there I 13 guess every couple of months and spent the weekend, and they 14 would come down and spend the weekend with us and we got along 15 fine. 16 Q. How about Joe's family members? Would they come 17 and visit you and would you visit in their homes? 18 A. Yes, sir. We had a lot of family get-togethers. 19 Joe was very family oriented and his family would have a lot 20 of the birthday parties and his family was very big, so we had 21 a lot of get-togethers. 22 Q. Did you-all have friends, social friends? 23 A. Yes, sir; we did. 24 Q. And what type of activities would you do with 25 your social friends? 16 1 A. A lot of times we would play cards. Sometimes 2 we'd go to a movie. We'd go bowling a lot of times. 3 Sometimes we went on camping trips with some of our friends. 4 Q. Was Joe laid off from Fawcett-Dearing before he 5 started working for Standard Gravure or did he get the job 6 with Standard Gravure before Fawcett-Dearing closed? 7 A. He got the job before they closed, but while he 8 was at Fawcett-Dearing there were periods of layoff. 9 Q. And were there periods when Joe was laid off? 10 A. Oh, yes, sir. 11 Q. What would have been the longest time that Joe 12 was laid off at Fawcett-Dearing? 13 A. I believe one time he was laid off around six 14 months. I think that was the longest he was ever laid off. 15 Q. And what did he do during those periods of time? 16 A. Well, he always prepared for that and we would 17 save our money and -- so we wouldn't have to worry because I 18 wasn't working at that time. And -- 19 Q. Was Joe -- I'm sorry. Go ahead. 20 A. That's okay. But he made provisions and we 21 just -- we never had it very rough. We didn't have a lot of 22 money, but we got by okay. 23 Q. Was Joe excited about the job with Standard 24 Gravure? 25 A. Yes, he was. 17 1 Q. Why? 2 A. He felt like it was a better place to work. It 3 was more organized. They had proper ventilation there. They 4 had better conditions for the men. It was just a lot 5 different from Fawcett-Dearing. 6 Q. Was Joe a journeyman pressman by the time he 7 started with Standard Gravure? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. And do you remember Joe's -- let's say from 1971 10 to 1980, that period of time, tell the jury about Joe's 11 experiences at the job at Standard Gravure. 12 A. Well, from what I remember, he liked it there. 13 There was a lot of work. He worked a lot of overtime. I 14 believe things went fairly well most of the time for him. 15 Q. Was Joe a good manager of money? 16 A. He was, but mostly he left it up to me. He 17 trusted me. 18 Q. Would Joe turn over his paycheck to you? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. And leave it to you to pay the expenses? 21 A. Yes, sir; he did. 22 Q. Was Joe one that went out and blew money? 23 A. No, never. 24 Q. Would Joe spend money on himself? 25 A. Never. He would go shopping to get himself some 18 1 new clothes, and he would always come back with something for 2 me and the kids and nothing for himself. 3 Q. Was Joe generous with you and your children 4 throughout your marriage? 5 A. He was always very generous. I used to get 6 after him for working a lot of overtime and I'd tell him, I 7 said, "Well, I just went out and I bought a lot of stuff this 8 week and so your overtime doesn't mean anything, it's gone," 9 and he'd just laugh and say, "That's what I'm working for." 10 Q. Did you -- once that period from, say, 1971 to 11 say 1978, did you-all continue to have social friends? 12 A. Yes, we did. 13 Q. And do social activities? 14 A. Yes, we did. 15 Q. When did problems start between you and Joe? 16 A. I guess it was around 1977 or '78. He was 17 working like 12 hours a day, 7 days a week and we didn't 18 really get to see each other very often. And when he was home 19 he slept, and I would invariably wake him up no matter what I 20 tried to do around the house. So I went out and I -- and the 21 kids had their activities, so I figured it was time for me to 22 go back to work, and he didn't -- he wasn't very happy with 23 that decision. 24 Q. Did he tell you why he didn't want you working? 25 A. Well, he said I was really needed at home. I 19 1 said, "Who needs me? I'll be here when the kids are here and 2 I'll be here, you know, before you go to work," but he said 3 "Well, I'd just rather have you home." And I said, "Well, let 4 me work for a little while anyway." I said, "I need to do 5 something." So, anyway, I went ahead and I found a job, but 6 he didn't like it. He told me if I didn't quit he would move 7 out, and within about a couple months he moved out. 8 Q. Were there a lot of violent arguments at this 9 time? 10 A. No, sir. 11 Q. Did Joe ever hit you during this time? 12 A. No, sir. 13 Q. Were you noticing changes in Joe's behavior, 14 mental process or anything of that nature in '77 and '78? 15 A. No. He was just tired from working a lot, but I 16 didn't notice any changes in him as far as being moody or 17 violent or anything like that. He never was violent. 18 Q. Were you sort of drifting apart? 19 A. I guess you could say that. We were kind of 20 drifting apart. We weren't -- we didn't have the closeness we 21 used to have. 22 Q. In looking back on it, do you put any particular 23 blame on either one of you or did you both share the blame 24 for -- 25 A. Well, I think both of us shared the blame, but I 20 1 always said that if he hadn't worked so much overtime that 2 probably our divorce never would have happened. 3 Q. Why didn't you tell him to quit working 4 overtime? 5 A. I did many times, but he said, you know, it was 6 his job and he had to. 7 Q. Were you surprised when Joe moved out? 8 A. Yes, I was. 9 Q. Why? 10 A. I really didn't think he would do it. But his 11 mother told me he thought it would make me quit my job; that's 12 why he did it. And I was stubborn and so was he, so I didn't 13 quit my job, but he went ahead and got him an apartment, and 14 about six months passed and he came back home. And I had in 15 the meantime gotten another job, and so our relationship 16 seemed to get better. 17 Q. You mean, he moved out in '78? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. And then -- but would continue to come to your 20 house? 21 A. Oh, yes, sir. Sometimes when I got home from 22 work he would be there fixing supper for the kids. And he'd 23 come over and do his laundry and sometimes he'd come over and 24 just take a nap or whatever. He still had keys to the house 25 and I didn't care, you know. And the kids loved having him 21 1 there, so, in a way we got along better. He seemed like he -- 2 well, with him being away from home it seemed like he realized 3 how much home meant to him and his family meant to him because 4 he had been away from us a lot working a lot. 5 Q. Did you and he discuss reconciliation? 6 A. Yes, we did. 7 Q. And why didn't you reconcile? 8 A. I really don't know. He started working a lot 9 again, and I thought there was some way maybe he didn't have 10 to work as much overtime as he did, but he said he had to. 11 So, anyway, he moved out again, but this time he would come 12 over still like he did before and he would bring me flowers; 13 he'd take me dancing; seemed like we were getting back 14 together again. 15 Q. And then what happened to change that? 16 A. He met Brenda. 17 Q. Did he tell you that he had met another woman? 18 A. No. I learned it from the kids. 19 Q. And were you-all actually divorced at that time? 20 A. Let me think. No. We weren't divorced as yet. 21 Q. But you were separated? 22 A. Yes, we were. 23 Q. Do you remember when the divorce was final? 24 A. It was January of l980. 25 Q. Up until January of l980, did Joe ever threaten 22 1 you or engage in any acts of violence towards you? 2 A. No, sir. 3 Q. Were you afraid of Joe? 4 A. No, sir. 5 Q. Did you ever see him do anything of a violent or 6 threatening manner? 7 A. No, sir. 8 Q. Do you know how he met Brenda? 9 A. I believe they went to Parents Without Partners. 10 That's where he met her. 11 Q. By January 1980, had the problem with Jimmy 12 surfaced? 13 A. Yes, it had. 14 Q. And tell the jury how that problem that Jimmy 15 had affected Joe. 16 A. Well, it upset him. He was frustrated because 17 he didn't know whether Jimmy was doing this of his own free 18 will or, you know, he was just mystified as to what was going 19 on. 20 Q. Did you and he run through all the options as to 21 what could be the possible cause, as parents would do in a 22 situation like that? 23 A. Yes, we did. We took Jimmy to many doctors 24 trying to find out what was causing him to do this. 25 Q. Did Joe seem genuinely concerned about getting 23 1 Jimmy's problem solved? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. And were you? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. Did Joe ever beat Jimmy or berate him or do 6 anything in that manner in connection with his problem? 7 A. No, sir. He talked to him a lot trying to get 8 Jimmy to talk to him to tell him why he was doing this or if 9 something was causing him to do this or if he was just really 10 unhappy or, he tried to get, you know, to the root of it to 11 see what was going on in Jimmy's mind, to see if he could help 12 Jimmy in any way. 13 Q. How about Kevin, his problem with the scoliosis 14 by 1980? Had he been seeing doctors for that? 15 A. Yes, sir. Joe and I both spent a lot of our 16 kids' growing-up times in doctors' offices. We took Kevin to 17 a lot of doctors trying to find out what to do with his 18 problem. And, in the meantime, Kevin had two hernia 19 operations and then we found a doctor that would help him with 20 his scoliosis, and he wore a back brace for like a year and -- 21 but Joe didn't care how much it cost or anything; he wanted to 22 do what was best for his kids. 23 Q. Was he continuing to be interested in his 24 children's education at that time? 25 A. Definitely. 24 1 Q. Shortly after your divorce, did things get 2 bitter between you and Joe? 3 A. Yes, it did. 4 Q. Describe that situation for the jury. 5 A. Well, he was -- I think he had moved in with 6 Brenda. And it seemed like he was still good to the kids, but 7 he started treating me very badly. 8 Q. In what ways? 9 A. Well, he had me to court several times for 10 different things. He said I was calling him, calling Brenda 11 and calling his mother. 12 Q. Was that the terroristic-threats charge that has 13 been mentioned here? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. Did you make any terroristic threats toward Joe 16 Wesbecker or his family at any time? 17 A. Never. No, sir; I did not. 18 Q. Did you plead guilty to that offense? 19 A. No, sir; I did not. 20 Q. What happened in connection with that? 21 A. Well, I was found guilty. I even asked the 22 judge to put tracers on their phones. I said, "There's no way 23 I would have made those calls." Anyway, I was found guilty 24 and I had to get letters from my friends and people who had 25 known me for a long time to tell what kind of character I was 25 1 to show that I wouldn't have done that, and so I guess got off 2 with probation. 3 Q. Did you know at that time or did -- was there 4 ever any instances up till that time where Joe had suffered 5 from any mental illness or condition -- 6 A. No, sir. 7 Q. -- that you were aware of? 8 A. No, sir. No, sir. Not that I was aware of. 9 Q. Did you know he was seeing a psychiatrist? 10 A. Yes, sir; I did. I knew that. 11 Q. What's your first recollection of the time when 12 he would have first been seeing a psychiatrist? 13 A. The first time I can remember is when it was 14 after the divorce and everything when he was with Brenda. I 15 think Jimmy had told me that his dad was seeing a 16 psychiatrist. 17 Q. Up to that time, were you aware of any kind of 18 mental illness or condition that Joe might have had? 19 A. No, sir. 20 Q. Now, was there an occasion when Joe physically 21 struck you? 22 A. There was one occasion. 23 Q. Tell the jury about that. First, when was it? 24 A. It was after the divorce. I was home. I was in 25 the bathroom cleaning the bathtub and Joe called and told me 26 1 that I had been seen at a nightclub with some guy, and he 2 really was upset over that. And I told him I hadn't been to 3 any nightclubs. Anyway, he hung up, and I had walked outside. 4 And the next thing I know, he was in my driveway. And he came 5 over and he just knocked me down and he got back in his car 6 and went back to work. He was in his work clothes. 7 Q. How did he knock you down? 8 A. It happened so fast, I guess with his hand or 9 his fist. I don't remember. 10 Q. Where did he hit you with his hand or fist? 11 A. In my face. 12 Q. Did you call the police? 13 A. Yes, sir; I did. 14 Q. Press charges against him? What happened as a 15 result of that? 16 A. Joe and I had to go downtown and talk to a 17 mediator and, anyway, Joe said he hadn't struck me and the 18 mediator talked to both of us and told us to try to get along 19 and not let anything like that happen again. That was it. 20 Q. Did you talk to Joe about this afterwards? 21 A. Yes, sir; I did. 22 Q. And did he ever express any explanation or 23 anything of that nature for his conduct on that occasion? 24 A. No, sir. He just -- he just said he just didn't 25 like anybody saying anything about me. 27 1 Q. Was it your impression that he was extremely 2 jealous? 3 A. I don't think it was -- he never was jealous, 4 but I just don't think he liked the idea of me being out in a 5 nightclub or whatever. That's what I -- that was my own 6 opinion of it. 7 Q. Up to that time had you ever feared Joe 8 Wesbecker? 9 A. No, sir. 10 Q. Since that time -- up to September 14th, 1989, 11 did you have any fear of Joe Wesbecker? 12 A. No, sir. Never. 13 Q. After this incident did you continue to see Joe? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. And what would be the occasion for you to 16 continue to see Joe? 17 A. Sometimes he would come over to the house to 18 pick Jimmy up and he would still come in and talk a few 19 minutes. If he called up on the phone, I would talk to him a 20 little bit. You know, we would converse and then, you know, 21 he would talk to Jimmy. 22 Q. Did you have periods where you would argue and 23 fuss and feud after you had the situation where the 24 terroristic-threat charge was made and disposed of? 25 A. Well, we had periods when we would have a few 28 1 arguments, but they weren't of any magnitude. It was usually 2 over Jimmy would tell his dad that, you know, him going to 3 school and playing football, he did not have time to take the 4 garbage out, and Joe would tell me to leave the boy alone, 5 things like that. 6 Q. Would he hit you or strike you or become 7 assaultive with you in any way on those occasions? 8 A. No, sir. 9 Q. Were there occasions when you would come into 10 communication and contact with Joe in connection with Jimmy's 11 continuing problem? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. Tell the jury about that. 14 A. Jimmy got in trouble one night and was arrested, 15 and I called Joe. I always called him and told him when Jimmy 16 was in trouble. And I said, "We have to go pick up his car." 17 So I went over and picked Joe up, and, anyway, I mean, both of 18 us had kind of gotten used to getting Jimmy out of jail by 19 this time, and we -- I know it seems terrible but we really 20 had a nice time that night. We laughed and cut up that night 21 and everything. We went and got his car and he was in, you 22 know, a good mood and I was in a good mood. We hated Jimmy 23 being there, but then we went downtown and got Jimmy out of 24 jail. 25 Q. When was that? Can you give us an idea of the 29 1 date of this? 2 A. Yes, sir. This was after my husband Carl had 3 passed away. 4 Q. When did he pass away? 5 A. He passed away in '88, October of '88. 6 Q. At that time was Joe working at Standard Gravure 7 or was he off on disability? 8 A. I believe he was off on disability at that time. 9 Q. The record I believe will indicate that Joe 10 Wesbecker never went back to work at Standard Gravure until 11 after August of 1988. Does that comport with your 12 recollection? 13 A. Well, I'm not sure. It's probably true. I know 14 he was home when I called him that night, but I didn't know if 15 he had gone back to work or not. 16 Q. Your second husband's name was Carl? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. And he died of a sudden heart attack? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. How did Joe and your second husband, Carl, get 21 along? 22 A. They got along really nice. They used to talk a 23 lot on the phone because Joe liked Carl because Carl tried to 24 help Jimmy. He went out of his way trying to do things for 25 Jimmy and try to help him with his problem. Both the boys, 30 1 Kevin and Jimmy, both really thought the world of Carl. He 2 was real easygoing and he would do anything for anybody and he 3 had a lot of friends. And Joe respected Carl because, you 4 know, anybody that tries to help your child you're going to 5 like them. And sometimes if Joe had car trouble he'd call 6 over there and Carl would go help him out, and they got along 7 very well. 8 Q. Would they spend extended periods of time 9 visiting with each other? 10 A. Well, sometimes on the phone Joe would call and 11 sometimes they would spend a couple hours on the phone just 12 talking. 13 Q. Did Joe ever threaten Carl? 14 A. Oh, no, sir. No, sir. 15 Q. Did Joe ever seem abnormally upset with you or 16 Carl because you-all had married and were happy? 17 A. No, sir. Jimmy had told me that his dad was 18 glad that, you know, that I had found Carl and I was happy. 19 Q. After this incident in October of 1988, when you 20 and Joe went to get Jimmy out of jail, when was the next time 21 that you saw Joe? 22 A. Well, I saw him on several occasions. He came 23 over one time, I guess it was the spring of '89 -- his lawn 24 mower had quit working, and he called over there to see if he 25 could use ours, and I said sure, so he came over and got it. 31 1 Q. Were you aware that there's potentially some 2 evidence that Joe had taken an ax to a couple of lawn mowers 3 at his house and torn them up? 4 A. No, sir. 5 Q. When he came over in the spring of 1989 and 6 borrowed your lawn mower, did he seem upset or in any way 7 disturbed? 8 A. No, sir. He just seemed like Joe. He still had 9 his little witty things he said and he still had a big smile 10 on his face. He was always smiling. 11 Q. Well, were you aware that Joe was under the care 12 of a psychiatrist in the spring of 1989? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. Were you under the -- were you aware that he was 15 being treated for depression in the spring of '89? 16 A. Jimmy had told me that his dad was going to a 17 psychiatrist for depression. 18 Q. Were you aware that Joe had been hospitalized on 19 a number of occasions in the late '70s and '80s in connection 20 with his depression? 21 A. Yes, sir. I heard all this through Jimmy 22 mostly. 23 Q. And did Joe up to the spring of 1989 exhibit any 24 abnormal or unusually depressed behavior in your presence? 25 A. No, sir. 32 1 Q. Did Jimmy tell you that he had observed in his 2 father extremely depressed, extremely upset? 3 A. No, sir. I know Jimmy did tell me after his dad 4 was gone he said he could look back and see, because he was 5 close to his dad and he saw him almost on a daily basis. Joe 6 was taking Jimmy back and forth to U of L because Jimmy was 7 having car problems. And he said just a week or two -- I'm 8 not sure of the date -- before his dad -- all that happened, 9 he said they -- 10 Q. Would you like a break, Ms. Chesser? 11 A. Please. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Ladies and gentlemen, 13 we're going to take a ten-minute recess. As I've mentioned to 14 you-all before, do not permit anybody to talk to you about 15 this case. Do not discuss it among yourselves. We'll stand 16 in recess for ten minutes, until 10:00. 17 (RECESS) 18 SHERIFF CECIL: The jury is now entering. All 19 jurors are present. 20 JUDGE POTTER: Please be seated. Ma'am, I'll 21 remind you you're still under oath. 22 Mr. Smith. 23 Q. Before we took our break, Ms. Chesser, you were 24 telling me about a conversation that you had with Jimmy 25 shortly before this incident occurred concerning Joe's 33 1 condition? 2 A. Yes, sir. It was right after it happened. It 3 was maybe a couple weeks after it happened. 4 MR. STOPHER: Objection, Your Honor. 5 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Approach the bench. 6 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 7 JUDGE POTTER: Is this the classic hearsay? 8 MR. SMITH: Yeah. 9 JUDGE POTTER: He just let you get away with so 10 much so far, you thought you'd keep going? 11 MR. SMITH: I guess I can stop. I'll stop. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Sustained. 13 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 14 Q. Let me back up with you, Ms. Chesser. Did you 15 ever see Joe in a disheveled, unshaven, unclean appearance in 16 the spring of 1989? 17 A. No, sir. 18 JUDGE POTTER: Keep your voice up, ma'am, 19 please. 20 Q. When was the next time after this incident in 21 the spring of '89, when you and Joe went to pick Jimmy up, 22 when was the next time you saw him physically? 23 A. I guess it was when he had come over to pick up 24 the lawn mower. 25 Q. Can you in time tell us where that -- when that 34 1 would have been in 1989? 2 A. It must have been around maybe May or June of 3 that year. 4 Q. Did you ever see him physically again after 5 that? 6 A. I believe I saw him once after that. I think it 7 was maybe middle of summer, maybe late summer, some kind of 8 insurance papers or something I had to take over that Jimmy 9 had given to me to give back to his dad, and I had to take 10 them over to his house. 11 Q. On Nottoway Circle? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. And did you go into the house at that time? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. What was the condition of the house at that 16 time? 17 A. Well, everything was kind of closed up and it 18 didn't look very neat or clean, but I knew he had been just 19 staying there during the daytime and going out to Brenda's 20 house at nights. 21 Q. Was there electricity on in the house at that 22 time? 23 A. Yes, sir. He had the television going. 24 Q. Was there water service to the house at that 25 time? 35 1 A. Now that, I'm not sure of, but I did see the TV 2 on when I went into his living room. 3 Q. What was Joe's appearance at that time? 4 A. He didn't look as neat and clean as he usually 5 does, but he didn't look real dirty or anything. He just had 6 on a T-shirt and a pair of jeans. 7 Q. Did he seem troubled or disturbed at that time? 8 A. He didn't have anything really witty or anything 9 to say that night when I took the papers over. 10 Q. Did he seem upset? 11 A. No, not really upset. Just didn't seem like 12 himself. 13 Q. Did he have guns out or anything of that nature? 14 A. No, sir. 15 Q. Did you ever know Joe to have an interest in 16 guns? 17 A. No, sir. 18 Q. Did you see any magazines there at the house 19 dealing with firearms or things of that nature? 20 A. No, sir. 21 Q. Did you see any articles or magazines concerning 22 murders or things of that nature? 23 A. No, sir. 24 Q. Did you know at this time that Joe had been 25 estranged from his mom? 36 1 A. I knew that they had periods where they didn't 2 talk or he didn't see her. 3 Q. Did you know that at this time Kevin and Joe or 4 prior to this time Kevin and Joe had gone for a long period of 5 time without talking? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. Do you know the reason for that? 8 A. Because Kevin -- Joe wanted Kevin to get a good 9 education and Joe was willing to help him out with it. But 10 Kevin had -- he went to U of L for a semester, I think, maybe 11 two, but he dropped out and he didn't tell his dad, and his 12 dad was -- he was a little upset with Kevin over this. 13 Q. Did you ever try to encourage Joe, or Kevin, for 14 that matter, to get back together and to amend their disputes? 15 A. Oh, yes, sir. Many times. 16 Q. Do you have any idea why you weren't successful 17 in doing that? 18 A. Well, I think they were both pretty stubborn, 19 but Joe just wanted a lot for Kevin and he wanted him not to 20 have to work really hard all of his life. He wanted him to 21 have a good education so he could have a better life and an 22 easier job. 23 Q. Did you know that Joe had written Kevin out of 24 his will at that time? 25 A. No, sir; I didn't. 37 1 Q. Was Joe -- did Joe at some point refuse to allow 2 your parents to come into your house or not see or speak to 3 your parents? 4 A. Excuse me? 5 Q. Your mother and dad -- 6 A. Uh-huh. 7 Q. -- there's been testimony or inference that Joe 8 was estranged from them at some point, maybe even while 9 you-all were married; is that correct? 10 A. My dad drank. Sometimes he drank too much, and 11 Joe didn't like him coming to the house and drinking in front 12 of the kids. And he would tell my dad to stay away. And my 13 dad would. They wouldn't come around, and then my dad would 14 stop drinking and they came back around and everything was 15 fine. But when he was drinking, Joe did not want him at the 16 house. 17 Q. Did Joe drink? 18 A. Occasionally. 19 Q. Did he drink on those occasions where he would 20 become intoxicated? 21 A. The only time that he ever became intoxicated 22 was when the kids were in grade school at St. Clement's, Joe 23 and I worked a lot of the bingos, the ball games. And the 24 father there, we went to a dance one night that they were 25 having and Father Lenihan fixed Joe a drink and it knocked him 38 1 out. Joe was not a drinker. He would have a beer or maybe 2 two, but that was it. 3 Q. What's the last conversation that you had with 4 Joe? 5 A. I believe it was the night before this all 6 happened I had answered the phone and he called to talk to 7 Jimmy. 8 Q. Did you talk with Joe or did you do anything 9 other than say hello and hand the phone to Jimmy? 10 A. I just said hello, and I didn't really have a 11 conversation with him that night. 12 Q. Do you recall anything that he said to you that 13 night? 14 A. Just said, "How are you," and I said, "Fine, how 15 you doing," and then I gave it to Jimmy. 16 Q. Did Joe respond when you asked him how he was 17 doing? 18 A. He said fine. 19 Q. Were you aware that Joe and Kevin in the summer 20 of 1989 were speaking more and were on the road to some kind 21 of reconciliation? 22 A. Yes, sir; I was. 23 Q. Tell the jury about that. 24 A. Joe had made several trips up to Kevin's 25 employment there when Kevin was working and told Kevin that he 39 1 would like for them to go out and have lunch and try to, you 2 know, become friends again. And so they went out to lunch a 3 few times and sometimes it was Joe, Jimmy and Kevin. And I 4 think they went out and had dinner a couple times together. 5 And Joe would come up there to -- when Kevin was working and 6 talk to him and it seemed like that they were coming around 7 to, you know, getting back together again. 8 Q. Did you hear Joe make complaints about stress on 9 the job during the 1980s at Standard Gravure? 10 A. I think a couple times maybe a certain job might 11 have been a little stressful or something but I don't -- he 12 didn't -- it wasn't something that he went on and on about or 13 talked a lot about. I guess every job has some stress to it. 14 Q. There's been a lot of testimony about working 15 the folder here. Were you aware that Joe was having a problem 16 with stress in connection with working the folder at Standard 17 Gravure? 18 A. I had heard that the folder was not an easy 19 thing to work on, and I don't think Joe liked working on the 20 folder. 21 Q. Is this something Joe told you or is this 22 something that you've heard since this incident? 23 A. No. I remember Joe had told me he didn't really 24 like the folder. 25 A. After 19, say, '85, other than that one incident 40 1 back in 1981 or '82, where Joe hit you, do you know of any 2 other instances in which Joe Wesbecker exhibited any violent, 3 aggressive, homicidal behavior? 4 A. No, sir. Never. 5 Q. Other than that one instance, was Joe Wesbecker 6 ever a threat to you? 7 A. No, sir. 8 Q. Thank you, Ms. Chesser. 9 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher. 10 11 EXAMINATION ___________ 12 13 BY_MR._STOPHER: __ ___ ________ 14 Q. Ms. Chesser, can you hear me all right, ma'am? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. If at any time you feel that you need to stop, 17 would you please let the Court know? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. All right. Ms. Chesser, as I understand it, 20 shortly after the time that you first met Joe Wesbecker, you 21 were under the impression that he was attending Flaget High 22 School and had been there or attended there for as much as 23 approximately two years or a couple of years; is that true? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. Did you later learn that that was false? 41 1 A. No, sir. He did attend Flaget High School. 2 Q. For as long as two years? 3 A. I'm not sure how long he went, but I know he did 4 drop out. He didn't graduate from there. 5 Q. Did he leave you under the impression that he 6 was attending school when in fact he was not? 7 A. No, sir. Never. I knew he wasn't in school. 8 Q. Pardon me? 9 A. I knew he wasn't going to school at that time. 10 I knew that. 11 Q. You knew he was not in school? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. Did he tell others in his family, such as his 14 uncle, that he was still going to school when in fact he was 15 not? 16 A. Sir, I have no idea what he told his uncle. 17 Q. After dating for I think you said about six 18 months, you and he decided to get married; am I correct? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. And if I understand correctly, the wedding 21 breakfast and reception were held at his grandmother's house 22 at 3416 Pulaski? 23 A. Yes, sir. That's correct. 24 Q. That would be Nancy Montgomery's house? 25 A. Yes, sir. 42 1 Q. Now, if I understand correctly, shortly after he 2 started working at -- shortly before you got married, he 3 started working at Fawcett-Haynes or Fawcett-Dearing printing 4 facility at 11th and Broadway; correct? 5 A. Yes, sir. That's correct. 6 Q. And didn't he complain to you about the 7 conditions at Fawcett in the printing facility? 8 A. Yes, he did. 9 Q. He complained about fumes? 10 A. Yes, he did. 11 Q. And that some of the men got disoriented and 12 didn't even know what they were doing? 13 A. Some of them even passed out. 14 Q. Including him? 15 A. No. He never did. 16 Q. And if I understand correctly, he worked there 17 for about ten years; am I right about that? 18 A. I believe that's about the length of his 19 employment there. 20 Q. And if I understand correctly, he was laid off 21 and the facility was closed; am I right? 22 A. I believe the facility closed and moved to 23 Salem, but I think Joe got on at Standard Gravure before it 24 actually closed up. 25 Q. Wasn't he upset that he had to go find another 43 1 job because he was laid off? 2 A. No, sir. 3 Q. Ms. Chesser, do you remember giving testimony in 4 this case under the same oath that you're under today? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. The date was October 21, 1992? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. Let me ask you if these questions weren't asked 9 of you and if you didn't give these answers under oath. Page 10 79, Line 23: "In May of 1971, he was laid off at Fawcett; 11 correct? 12 "Answer: Correct. 13 "Question: And at that time Kevin was about 14 eight and Jimmy was about four; correct? 15 "Answer: Yes, that's right. 16 "Question: And you were not working at the 17 time? 18 "Answer: No, I don't think I was. 19 "Question: How did he react to being laid off 20 at Fawcett and the plant closing? 21 "Answer: Well, it was upsetting. I know it 22 seemed like he told me a lot of the men were scrambling around 23 trying to find jobs here and there. There were several that 24 were going to move with the plant, but I believe it wasn't 25 long after that he talked to -- it might have been Allen 44 1 Wilson up at The Courier to see about getting on there. 2 "Question: Did he feel that the company had 3 treated the employees fairly or unfairly when they closed that 4 plant? 5 "Answer: Well, I think most of the men felt 6 like they were kind of treated unfairly, and I'm sure Joe felt 7 the same way. 8 "Question: Did they feel that they were being 9 treated unfairly in connection with the severance package that 10 was given to the men? 11 "Answer: Now, I don't remember any specifics 12 like that. I don't recall." 13 Is that testimony under oath still accurate? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. Now, Ms. Chesser, as I understand it, he felt 16 that the work conditions were better at Fawcett than they were 17 at Standard Gravure; isn't that correct? 18 A. No, sir. He felt the conditions were better at 19 Standard than they were at Fawcett. 20 Q. Let me refer you to page -- I'm sorry. I 21 misunderstood. You're saying that it was better at Standard 22 than it was at Fawcett; am I correct? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. All right. Now, if I understand correctly, he 25 started at Standard Gravure in May, approximately, of 1971; is 45 1 that accurate? 2 A. I believe that's accurate. 3 Q. And do you know when he stopped working there, 4 ma'am? 5 A. I'm not really for sure of the exact date. 6 Q. Do you know why he stopped working at Standard 7 Gravure? 8 A. I knew he was going off on some kind of 9 disability. That's all I knew. 10 Q. Did you know what kind of disability he had that 11 kept him from being able to work at Standard Gravure? 12 A. No, sir. 13 Q. You didn't know if it was a back problem or a 14 leg problem, neck problem or something else? 15 A. I had no idea. I was not married to Joe. I was 16 not around him a lot at that time. I did not know for sure 17 what the problems were. 18 Q. When he went off on disability, did you discuss 19 with him what he was going to do the rest of his life? 20 A. No, sir; I don't believe so. 21 Q. In 1988, he was 46; correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. In 1989, he was 47 years of age; correct? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. Did he ever discuss with you what he was going 46 1 to do with himself the rest of his life? 2 A. You mean prior to him being 47 or -- would you 3 explain what you mean? 4 Q. Yes, ma'am. After he stopped working, as Mr. 5 Smith just told you, the record in this case will establish 6 that he didn't work after August 6, 1988. He was 46 years of 7 age. And I was wondering if during that last year or so of 8 his life he ever discussed with you what he was going to do in 9 the future. 10 A. To the best of my knowledge, I don't remember 11 talking to him about what he was going to do in the future. 12 Q. Now, let me go back, if I may, to the years in 13 which you and he were married and living together. If I 14 understand correctly, you lived in a home with him on 15 Devonshire; am I correct about that? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. And you and he joined St. Clement's Catholic 18 Church; am I correct about that? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. And wanted the -- your two sons to go to 21 Catholic schools, which they did; correct? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. Now, if I understand correctly, at some time in 24 the 1970s, there came to be a serious problem with Jimmy and 25 his behavior; am I correct about that? 47 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. And did that problem continue from that point on 3 up until at least the day of these shootings? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. Jimmy from time to time would exhibit himself or 6 flash or show himself to women; is that correct? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. They would be women that he didn't know; 9 correct? 10 A. Correct. 11 Q. And over the years he would be arrested from 12 time to time for that conduct; is that correct? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. I thought I understood you to say that was many 15 times that you or Joe Wesbecker or the both of you went to 16 jail to get him out; is that true? 17 A. That is correct. 18 Q. In spite of all of the efforts to deal with his 19 problems, I believe that from your testimony at least, that 20 nothing was successful; am I right? 21 A. There was medication that he took; he took shots 22 for a while that helped keep the problem under control until 23 his body got immune to the medication or the shots, then we 24 would find something else. 25 Q. But there was never a cure; there's never been a 48 1 permanent stopping of that persistent problem, has there? 2 A. No, sir. 3 Q. And never was the whole time that Joe Wesbecker 4 was alive; am I right? 5 A. That's true, sir. 6 Q. As a matter of fact, Jimmy was in Oneida Baptist 7 Institute in an attempt to deal with that problem in the early 8 1980s; is that true? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. He was in Our Lady of Peace Hospital in 1983? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. Jimmy was hospitalized in the psychiatric ward 13 at Norton Hospital in 1982? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. He saw social workers, psychiatrists and 16 psychologists at different times; is that accurate? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. He was a patient at Pleasant Grove Hospital from 19 November of 1983 through December of 1983; correct? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. He was in Children's Treatment Center for about 22 five months in 1984 and the early part of 1985? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. He was at Ten Broeck Hospital in the spring of 25 1986? 49 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. And if I understand correctly, in spite of all 3 of those institutions and all of the psychiatrists and 4 psychologists, that the problems persisted? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. Mrs. Chesser, is it fair to say that this 7 problem was devastating to Joe Wesbecker? 8 A. It was devastating to both of us. 9 Q. And it was devastating to him; am I right? 10 A. It was very frustrating, sir. 11 Q. In addition, am I correct in understanding that 12 from time to time there were concerns about Jimmy attempting 13 suicide or talking about suicide? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. And on some occasions he had to be very 16 carefully watched when he was institutionalized because of 17 concerns of suicide on Jimmy's part? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. And was that upsetting to Joe Wesbecker? 20 A. That was upsetting to both of us as his parents. 21 Q. Mrs. Chesser, in those years going through all 22 of those upsetting moments with Jimmy, did Joe Wesbecker tell 23 you that he himself was depressed and had attempted suicide? 24 A. No, sir. He never mentioned it. 25 Q. He kept that from you? 50 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. Now, one of Joe Wesbecker's attempts to deal 3 with Jimmy's problems was to try to hide the problem for fear 4 that the family would be looked down on by other people; is 5 that accurate? 6 A. I'm sorry. I don't know what you mean. Tried 7 to hide the problem? 8 Q. Yes, ma'am. And not talk about it and not 9 discuss it or -- 10 A. Neither one of us discussed it with anyone. We 11 tried to keep it private. It's not something you advertise. 12 Q. And about that same time period in the 1970s, 13 didn't Joe Wesbecker tell you that he didn't like working at 14 Standard Gravure and, particularly, on the folder because it 15 made him nervous? 16 A. He had mentioned that he didn't particularly 17 like the folder. I don't think any of the men really liked 18 the folder, but it was part of the job there. 19 Q. Didn't he tell you that his supervisors would 20 get on him about the way he ran the folder? 21 A. I don't remember that, sir. 22 Q. Let me refer you to Page 112 of your deposition, 23 Ms. Chesser, when you testified under oath on October 21, 24 1992, beginning at Line Two: "During that same period of time 25 did he mention to you that he was having troubles at work, 51 1 particularly with regard to working the folder? 2 "Answer: I remember him talking about the 3 folder, he didn't want to work on it. 4 "Question: And did he tell you that it bothered 5 his nerves? 6 "Answer: I believe it -- I don't think any of 7 the men really liked the folder, but Joe didn't like to work 8 on it. He said it made him a little nervous. 9 "Question: And when it made him nervous, did he 10 tell you what problems he had? 11 "Answer: No. He just said it -- it just made 12 him nervous. 13 "Question: Did he tell you what about the 14 folder made him nervous? 15 "Answer: Well, he might have explained it to 16 me. I didn't really understand because I couldn't really see 17 for myself what kind of operation it was, so I didn't really 18 understand. 19 "Question: Did he tell you that some of the 20 supervisors would get on his back about the way he ran the 21 folder? 22 "Answer: Yes. I remember he did say that." 23 Is that testimony still accurate, Ms. Chesser? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. Now, Ms. Chesser, didn't you also tell me that 52 1 in the mid 1970s Joe Wesbecker's only friend at work was Jim 2 Lucas? 3 A. I believe that was the one he was closest to. 4 Q. And then if I understand correctly, in the late 5 1970s, about 1978, you decided that you wanted to get a job 6 and he didn't want you to; am I correct? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. And as a matter of fact, you told him that you 9 were going to get a job, and he asked you not to or told you 10 not to; correct? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. Then he told you that you couldn't get a job, 13 didn't he? 14 A. Yes, sir; he did. 15 Q. He kind of taunted you saying that it wasn't 16 possible for you to get employment; correct? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. And then just to prove him wrong, you got a job; 19 am I right? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. And then he told you to either quit that job or 22 he was going to move out; am I right? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. And you told him that you weren't going to quit; 25 correct? 53 1 A. Correct. 2 Q. And then he moved out; am I right? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. When he gave you that either/or, either quit or 5 I'm moving out, he wasn't upset, was he? 6 A. Not really. He thought that by telling me that, 7 I would go ahead and quit the job. 8 Q. He wasn't yelling at you or threatening you with 9 any violence? 10 A. No, sir. 11 Q. He just said it in a very controlled manner, 12 didn't he? 13 A. Yes, he did. 14 Q. You didn't take him seriously, did you? 15 A. No, not really. 16 Q. And then he did it; correct? 17 A. Yes, he did. 18 Q. And then, if I understand correctly, he moved 19 back in some months later for a short period of time, left 20 again and filed for divorce; am I right? 21 A. That's correct. 22 Q. If I understand correctly, there was a lot of 23 acrimony in the divorce proceedings and related court issues 24 between you and Mr. Wesbecker; correct? 25 A. What exactly do you mean? 54 1 Q. A lot of hostility. 2 A. Yes, sir; there was. 3 Q. He charged you with terroristic phone calls? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. His mother testified against you? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. You filed claims against him of various sorts. 8 He counterclaimed against you, alleging defamation and slander 9 and that sort of thing; correct? 10 A. No, sir. 11 Q. Not true? 12 A. (Shakes head negatively). 13 Q. You claimed that he had called your employer and 14 had said bad things about you to your boss; am I correct? 15 A. That's correct. 16 Q. And then he claimed that he had said those 17 things about you to get back at you for things that he 18 perceived that you were doing to him; correct? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. If I understand correctly, there were numerous 21 hearings about property settlements and the like? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. And if I understand correctly, he was successful 24 in getting some judgments or a judgment against you in 25 connection with defamation and slander; correct? 55 1 A. I don't really recall that. 2 Q. He accused you, among other things, of stealing 3 from him by using a credit card? 4 A. Yes, sir; that's true. 5 Q. Mrs. Chesser, in evidence that is not in yet 6 into this case in the records of Doctor Hayes, there's a note 7 that Mr. Wesbecker told Doctor Hayes that you had threatened 8 suicide at that time. Did you ever threaten that you were 9 going to kill yourself and communicate that to Mr. Wesbecker? 10 A. No, sir. 11 Q. If he reported that to his doctor, it's not 12 accurate? 13 A. No. I never -- I never told him anything like 14 that. 15 Q. Now, Ms. Chesser, in the 1970s, late 1970s, 16 perhaps the early 1980s, Kevin's scoliosis had progressed and 17 gotten worse; am I correct about that? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. And he went to Doctor Leatherman and discussed 20 surgery; am I correct about that? 21 A. Yes. Yes, sir. 22 Q. And if I understand correctly, Joe Wesbecker 23 wanted him to have the surgery; correct? 24 A. Yes, he did. 25 Q. And apparently Kevin didn't want the surgery? 56 1 A. Kevin wanted the surgery and Joe and I were 2 going to pay the bills for it; at that time his girlfriend 3 talked him out of it. 4 Q. And sometime after that incident, Joe Wesbecker 5 stopped speaking to his oldest son? 6 A. Yes, I believe he did. 7 Q. Now, during the early 1980s, you told Mr. Smith, 8 in response to questions that he asked you, about an incident 9 where Mr. Wesbecker hit you in the face? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. Apparently that was in response to his having 12 heard a rumor that you were seen out or around; am I recalling 13 this correctly? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. And I take it that that rumor was untrue? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. Whatever he believed, it was inaccurate; 18 correct? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. Do you recall another incident in July of 1982, 21 when Jimmy was in Boys Haven and you and Joe Wesbecker talked 22 on the telephone and you told him that you were going to take 23 Jimmy out of Boys Haven; do you recall that? 24 A. Yes, sir; I do. 25 Q. And he became upset and hung up on you and the 57 1 next thing you knew, he was at your house; am I right? 2 A. I can't recall that exactly, but I know we had a 3 few words over that. 4 Q. As a matter of fact, he came to your house and 5 he struck you across the face two or three times and knocked 6 you to the ground and jumped in his car and left; isn't that 7 accurate? 8 A. I don't recall that. 9 Q. Let me refer you to Page 207, Line 18. 10 "Question: And according to the Court records this occurred 11 on July 29th, 1982. 12 "Answer: Okay. 13 "Question: Does that sound about right to you? 14 "Answer: About right. 15 "Question: Summertime? 16 "Answer: Yes. Summertime. 17 "Question: You were outside? 18 "Answer: I was out in the yard. 19 "Question: And he came alone? 20 "Answer: Yes. 21 "Jimmy was in Boys Haven; correct? 22 "Answer: Yes. 23 "Question: And what happened? 24 "Answer: Had some sort of a conversation with 25 Joe on the phone and I guess I said something he didn't really 58 1 agree with. I think I told him I was going to go get Jimmy 2 out of Boys Haven and I don't think he was agreeable for me 3 doing that, and he hung up on me. The next thing I know he's 4 in my driveway and he's in my yard, and he struck me two or 5 three times, then he jumped in his car and left." 6 Is that testimony still accurate, Ms. Chesser? 7 A. I remember that now; yes, sir. 8 Q. Now, if I understand correctly, after these 9 divorce proceedings and the consequences of those, your 10 contacts with Joe Wesbecker were limited pretty much to 11 dealing with Jimmy, court proceedings, getting him out of 12 jail, going to institutions where he was and that was about 13 the only real basis of direct contact between you and Joe 14 Wesbecker; am I correct? 15 A. That's correct. 16 Q. During the 1980s, he never told you or confided 17 in you that he had been hospitalized on two occasions at Our 18 Lady of Peace and once at Baptist East psychiatric ward; is 19 that true? 20 A. That's correct. 21 Q. He never told you that he had attempted suicide 22 during those years? 23 A. No, sir. 24 Q. He never confided in you as to what his concerns 25 were about his relationship with Kevin? 59 1 A. He wanted Kevin to continue his education. He 2 wanted Kevin to get a better job. He wanted a lot of things 3 for Kevin. 4 Q. But he didn't talk to Kevin for seven years, if 5 I understand? 6 A. Oh, they talked. They didn't see each other on 7 any kind of a regular basis but if they saw each other 8 someplace out, they would speak and talk. 9 Q. Did they do that regularly during the 1980s, Ms. 10 Chesser? 11 A. Excuse me? 12 Q. Did your former husband, Joe Wesbecker, and your 13 son meet and talk regularly during the 1980s? 14 A. No, sir. I didn't say that. I said whenever 15 they would see each other out somewhere, they would speak and 16 say, "How are you," and just normal things. But, no, they 17 didn't see each other on a regular basis; no, sir. 18 Q. Who told you that they would speak from time to 19 time and say hello and how are you and those sorts of things 20 during the 1980s? 21 A. Kevin. 22 Q. Kevin told you that? 23 A. Yes, sir. They didn't see each other a whole 24 lot, just a few times. 25 Q. Mrs. Chesser, do you recall Joe Wesbecker ever 60 1 mentioning concerns that he had about chemicals at Standard 2 Gravure? 3 A. I remember him talking about it, yes. 4 Q. Do you recall him telling you or talking about 5 chemicals getting into his bloodstream through the pores in 6 his skin? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. What was his concern about that? 9 A. His concern was -- he talked about that mostly 10 when he was at Fawcett, he went back to the years when he was 11 there and a certain kind of chemical getting into his pores 12 and maybe he passed on something that went to the boys. But I 13 think he went and talked to some doctors, and I don't think 14 they said that was possible. 15 Q. He told you that he thought the chemicals had 16 resulted in something that his sons inherited? 17 A. That's right. 18 Q. Did he tell you that he thought it was maybe the 19 reason for Jimmy's behavior? 20 A. He said it could possibly be. 21 Q. Did he tell you that he thought it may be the 22 reason for the scoliosis in Kevin? 23 A. No. He didn't say that. 24 Q. Mrs. Chesser, are you aware of complaints that 25 he filed against Standard Gravure in the 1980s? 61 1 A. No, sir. 2 Q. Complaints with the Human Relations Commission 3 and the like? 4 A. No, sir; I'm not. 5 Q. Do you recall, Ms. Chesser, that on one occasion 6 when Jimmy was arrested that you went to the courthouse or to 7 jail and Joe was there and he discussed with you being hassled 8 at Standard Gravure over his claims of disability? 9 A. I remember vaguely him talking about he had 10 filed for some sort of disability and he said he was having a 11 rough time with it, but he didn't go into any details. 12 Q. If I understand correctly, in the spring of 13 1989, he came to your house to borrow a lawn mower, did I 14 understand correctly? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. And he said that his lawn mower had quit 17 working? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. And I think you told us that that was in perhaps 20 May or June of 1989? 21 A. I'm not really positive on the time, but I 22 believe that's about when it was. 23 Q. Then I think I understood you to say that there 24 was an occasion when you went to his home on Nottoway; am I 25 correct about that? 62 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. And that you and he were working on some 3 insurance matters; correct? 4 A. Yes, sir. I had some papers Jimmy had given me 5 to give to his dad. 6 Q. And the issue was that night that Jimmy was no 7 longer covered under Joe Wesbecker's policy at Standard 8 Gravure because he was over 22; isn't that accurate? 9 A. I'm not sure exactly what it was all about at 10 that time, but I know Jimmy had given me some insurance papers 11 to give back to his dad. 12 Q. As a matter of fact, wasn't there an issue that 13 there were a large numbers of unpaid bills that were not 14 covered by the insurance and that you and he met in 1989, and 15 started discussing those financial issues? 16 A. I don't remember that. I remember he said that 17 they were taking a long time to pay some of the expenses, but 18 there might have been some things that weren't covered. I 19 don't really remember. 20 Q. Do you recall, Ms. Chesser, testifying on 21 November 22, 1989, under oath, just about two months after 22 these shootings occurred, and giving the following testimony: 23 Page 241, Line 20: "When is the last time you spoke to Joe? 24 "Answer: It was about a month before all of 25 this happened. 63 1 "Question: What did he say? Did he tell you 2 anything? 3 "Answer: No. We were trying to get some past 4 insurance bills paid that were still unpaid. As soon as Jimmy 5 turned 22 his insurance and my insurance no longer covered him 6 and there were still unpaid bills that the insurance hadn't 7 covered, and him and I had got together several times trying 8 to go over these bills." 9 Do you remember giving that testimony, Ms. 10 Chesser? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. Jimmy's bills were substantial because of these 13 problems of acting out; correct? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. And was Joe Wesbecker concerned that Standard 16 Gravure's policy was no longer paying those bills and that 17 there were issues about bills that had not been paid? 18 A. There could have been; yes, sir. 19 Q. And if I understand correctly, that was the last 20 time that you saw him? 21 A. To the best of my knowledge, that was the last 22 time. 23 Q. Thank you, Ms. Chesser. 24 JUDGE POTTER: Anything further, Mr. Smith? 25 MR. SMITH: Just a couple, Your Honor. 64 1 FURTHER_EXAMINATION _______ ___________ 2 3 BY_MR._SMITH: __ ___ ______ 4 Q. Ms. Chesser, in connection with the solvents and 5 your sons -- and whether or not they might be related to your 6 sons' problems, when your sons were conceived and born, where 7 was Joe Wesbecker working? 8 A. He was working at Fawcett-Dearing printing 9 company. 10 Q. Would any exposure that he had had that might 11 have been passed onto his sons been the result of exposure at 12 Fawcett-Dearing and not Standard Gravure? 13 A. Yes, sir; I would think so. 14 Q. Did Mr. Wesbecker ever express concerns that 15 some exposure to solvents at Standard Gravure could have 16 caused, in his mind, problems with his sons? 17 A. No, sir. He always specified that it was 18 Fawcett because it would have had to have been before the kids 19 were conceived. 20 Q. Because that's where he was? 21 A. That's right. 22 Q. That's all I have. Thank you. 23 JUDGE POTTER: Yes, sir. Mr. Higgs. 24 JUROR HIGGS: I was wondering, could I approach 25 the bench for -- maybe to talk to you about possibly asking a 65 1 question? 2 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 3 JUDGE POTTER: Speak into the microphone because 4 the lady over there is taking it down. 5 JUROR HIGGS: I was wondering if there would be 6 a possibility of finding out if the lawn mowers were actually 7 destroyed or not. 8 JUDGE POTTER: This lady has already testified 9 about what she knows and I think they asked her if she knew 10 anything about that, and she said she didn't know anything 11 about that. 12 MR. SMITH: I'll be glad to ask some more to 13 make it more clear. 14 JUROR HIGGS: Would there be any possibility of 15 finding out any other way? 16 JUDGE POTTER: The lawyers will decide as the 17 case goes on whether or not that evidence comes in if there is 18 any evidence of that. 19 JUROR HIGGS: Also, I would like to -- I didn't 20 catch this in my notes; they said that he was on Prozac twice? 21 JUDGE POTTER: Well, sir, all I can tell you is 22 that evidence -- you heard that in opening statement and the 23 opening statement is what the evidence is going to be, and 24 you'll just have to listen to see if that evidence comes 25 along. Thank you very much. 66 1 Mr. Smith, you've got one more question. 2 Q. On that occasion that Mr. Wesbecker came to 3 borrow the lawn mower in the spring or early summer of 1989, 4 did you know about or did he mention or did you ever learn 5 that he had torn up any of his own lawn mowers? 6 A. No, sir. I had no idea. 7 Q. Did he say anything to you as to why he was 8 wanting to borrow your lawn mower versus using his own? 9 A. He said his lawn mower wasn't working. 10 Q. That's all you know about it? 11 A. That's all I know about it. 12 Q. Okay. Thank you. 13 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much, ma'am, you 14 may step down; you're excused. 15 Mr. Smith, you want to call your next witness? 16 MR. SMITH: Yes. Mr. Jimmy Graham, Your Honor. 17 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, may we approach the 18 bench? 19 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 20 MR. STOPHER: Judge, I was told yesterday when 21 we broke that the only two witnesses today would be Ms. 22 Chesser and Mr. Green. Mr. Graham was on a prior list. I 23 prepared for Mr. Graham, but I don't have the materials here 24 today based on what Counsel told me. I'll be glad to send 25 over to get the materials, but they're not here now. 67 1 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. All right. How long a 2 witness is Mr. Graham from your point of view? 3 MR. SMITH: Twenty minutes, Your Honor. 4 JUDGE POTTER: And you've got another worker. 5 We were talking this morning with Mr. Freeman; that's why I 6 happened to know that, or maybe you were here but inside the 7 courtroom. Mr. Smith and Mr. Freeman and I guess Ms. Zettler 8 and I were having a discussion and I think I remember them 9 saying that they had two workers this morning instead of Mr. 10 Green. 11 MR. STOPHER: I'm sorry, Judge. I was not given 12 that information. I'll be glad to send over and get my 13 materials but it will take me about 10 to 15 minutes. 14 JUDGE POTTER: The only reason I brought that up 15 is because if you send over for the next guy you might send 16 over for the other guy. 17 MR. SMITH: Thomas Evans. 18 MR. STOPHER: Evans and Graham; right. 19 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 20 JUDGE POTTER: Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, 21 we're going to take a 15-minute recess. As I mentioned to 22 you, do not permit anyone to speak to you about the trial. Do 23 not discuss it among yourselves. Do not form or express any 24 opinions about it. We're going to take a 15-minute recess. 25 Mr. Fitch, is the hearing -- 68 1 JUROR FITCH: I'm wired for sound. 2 JUDGE POTTER: Is the sound working all right? 3 JUROR FITCH: I'm fine. 4 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. You got your equipment. 5 (RECESS) 6 SHERIFF CECIL: The jury is now entering. All 7 the jurors are present. 8 JUDGE POTTER: Please be seated. 9 Mr. Smith, do you want to call your next 10 witness. 11 MR. SMITH: Yes. We'd call Jimmy Graham. 12 JUDGE POTTER: You're Mr. Graham? 13 MR. GRAHAM: Yes, sir. 14 JUDGE POTTER: Would you step up here and raise 15 your right hand, sir. 16 17 JIMMY GRAHAM, after first being duly sworn, was 18 examined and testified as follows: 19 20 JUDGE POTTER: Please have a seat there, keep 21 your voice up good and loud, and say your full name and then 22 spell it for us. 23 MR. GRAHAM: Full name? Jimmy Ferrell Graham. 24 JUDGE POTTER: Spell your first and last. 25 MR. GRAHAM: J-I-M-M-Y, G-R-A-H-A-M. 69 1 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith. 2 3 EXAMINATION ___________ 4 5 BY_MR._SMITH: __ ___ _____ 6 Q. Would you state your full name. Oh, you've 7 already stated your name. How old a man are you, Mr. Graham? 8 A. I'm 53 years old. 9 Q. Where do you live. 10 A. Beaver Dam, Kentucky. 11 Q. How far is that from Louisville? 12 A. 120 miles. 13 Q. Did you ever work at Standard Gravure, sir? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. When did you first start working for Standard 16 Gravure? 17 A. 1964, September 6. 18 Q. And how long did you continue working for them? 19 A. Well, until they shut down, you know, 27 years. 20 Q. Would that have been 1991 or '92 that the plant 21 was shut down? 22 A. '91, I think, wasn't it? 23 Q. What was your job with Standard Gravure? 24 A. Pressman. 25 Q. Did you have any other duties? 70 1 A. I was chapel chairman on one-to-nine shift. 2 Q. Explain to the jury what the chapel chairman is, 3 sir. 4 A. Hire overtime, collect union dues and that's 5 more -- you know... 6 Q. Is that a union position? 7 A. Yeah. 8 Q. Is that like a union business agent or a union 9 steward or something of that nature? 10 A. Steward, yeah. 11 Q. Would steward be the closest? 12 A. Yeah. 13 Q. And did you interface with management on behalf 14 of union members or did you interface with the union on behalf 15 of union members? 16 A. Both. 17 Q. When did you become a pressman? Were you a 18 pressman when you started at Standard Gravure? 19 A. No. I served four years apprenticeship, started 20 in 1964, so I'd say later part of the '60s I became a 21 pressman. These dates, I don't have them written down now. 22 Q. Did you know Joseph Wesbecker? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. You were there before Joseph Wesbecker came to 25 Standard Gravure? 71 1 A. Right. 2 Q. Do you recall when Mr. Wesbecker came to 3 Standard Gravure? 4 A. Not the exact date, but I remember when it was, 5 yeah. 6 Q. Does early '70s sound correct? 7 A. Yeah. 8 Q. What type of guy was Joseph Wesbecker? 9 A. Just average -- seemed like average person to 10 me, you know; I never had no problems with him. 11 Q. Were you able to observe his demeanor there at 12 the plant during that period of time? Were you able to 13 observe his mood and his interactions with other people at the 14 plant? 15 A. Seemed fine. 16 Q. Did -- say, up until 1984, '85, did you ever 17 hear of any complaints that Mr. Wesbecker made concerning the 18 work conditions there at the plant? 19 A. Well, when they put him on the folder, that's -- 20 that was the main problem seemed like to me, he liked to 21 complain about that. 22 Q. Tell the jury what type of complaints he would 23 make in connection with working on the folder. 24 A. He just said he didn't want to work it, and they 25 kept putting him up there and putting him up there. And he 72 1 said it made him nervous and he said he didn't want it. 2 Q. Did you interface with him as the chapel 3 chairman with the union or with management to try to get him 4 off the folder, Mr. Graham? 5 A. He didn't work my shift. 6 Q. Then how did you know he was making complaints 7 about the folder? 8 A. Just through hearsay and other people talking, 9 you know. 10 Q. Did you ever personally talk with Joe Wesbecker 11 about his complaints about working on the folder? 12 A. No, nothing. 13 Q. Did you ever hear personally anything about any 14 threats that Joseph Wesbecker might be making at that plant? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Did you ever hear any hearsay about any threats 17 that Joseph Wesbecker had made concerning retaliatory actions 18 at the plant? 19 A. I didn't directly hear none, no, myself. 20 Q. Do you recall that there were occasions when 21 management did accommodate Mr. Wesbecker and take him off the 22 folder? 23 A. Well, they had taken him off, but seemed like 24 two or three weeks later they'd have him back up there again. 25 Q. What would be the reasons for that, Mr. Graham? 73 1 A. They'd say they were short on folder men and had 2 to use him. 3 Q. Would that have been accurate, as far as you 4 could tell, or inaccurate? 5 A. Inaccurate, I think. They put him up there when 6 they shouldn't have because they had other people that could 7 have worked it. 8 Q. Did you ever work the folder? 9 A. That's what I worked, yeah, the folder the last 10 few years I worked there. 11 Q. Did you find that job stressful? 12 A. Well, sort of, at times. 13 Q. Did you ever see Joe Wesbecker in a fight? 14 A. In a what now? 15 Q. In a fight. 16 A. Fight, no. 17 Q. Did you ever hear of him being in a fight? 18 A. I heard he had an incident -- a small one over 19 at a bar one time, but that's all I ever heard. 20 Q. Did you observe -- how often would you say you 21 had seen Joe Wesbecker over the years that you worked there? 22 A. I'd see him usually every two or three days or 23 so. I worked overtime on his shift and I would see him, you 24 know, and sometimes he would work overtime on another shift 25 and I'd meet him, you know. 74 1 Q. Did you ever have any problems with him? 2 A. None whatsoever. 3 Q. Did you ever consider him a threat? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Do you know whether or not anybody else ever 6 considered him a threat? 7 A. Not to my knowledge. 8 Q. Did you ever see Joe Wesbecker after August of 9 1988 at the plant? That's when he went on long-term 10 disability. 11 A. Oh, I think I had seen him in there, yeah. 12 Q. And what was he doing on those occasions? 13 A. I can't say for sure, but I thought he was in to 14 see the office personnel, something about maybe his pay or his 15 insurance or something. 16 Q. Did you see him threatening or harassing on 17 those occasions? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Did you have a chance to visit with him or say 20 hello to him when he was in the plant after he went on 21 long-term disability? 22 A. Yeah. He'd come by and talk, you know, nothing 23 to amount to anything, you know, just say hi or something. 24 Q. Did he seem abnormally upset or threatening at 25 that time? 75 1 A. Not to me. 2 Q. Did you ever see Joseph Wesbecker with any gun? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Did you ever hear of him having a gun? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Were you working on September 14th, 1989? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. And what time did you arrive to work that day? 9 A. One A.M. 10 Q. And how long did you continue to work? 11 A. Nine o'clock was our stopping time. 12 Q. But the shooting occurred before nine? 13 A. Right. 14 Q. Where were you -- I'm sorry. I cut you off; I 15 didn't mean to. 16 A. See, we, like, break 30 minutes on and 30 17 minutes off, and I had the last break that day because I was 18 going out of town, and I left the folder at 8:30. 19 Q. And where did you go from there? 20 A. Through the break room and into the side door 21 and into the locker room and on into the shower. 22 Q. And were you actually in the shower when you 23 heard the shots in the break room? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Tell the jury what you did. 76 1 A. What I did? 2 Q. Yes, sir. 3 A. Well, I turned the shower off and kind of hid 4 back in the corner till all the popping quit. 5 Q. Okay. What happened next? 6 A. It quieted down, and about three people come 7 busting through the door and said -- the words I heard, "John 8 Westerman is shooting up the break room." 9 Q. John Westerman? 10 A. Yeah. But whoever it was must have been 11 hysterical and that's the name they said. 12 Q. Was there an employee at Standard Gravure by the 13 name of John Westerman? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. You heard them clearly that it was a different 16 name? 17 A. Right. 18 Q. Do you remember who said that? 19 A. No, I don't, but it was -- like I said, it was 20 hysterical or something; they just screamed it out, you know. 21 Q. What did you do at that time? 22 A. Well, like I said, I kind of stayed in the 23 shower and turned the water off for -- seemed like forever, 24 but it was like probably two or three minutes. I come back 25 out and went to my locker and put my pants on and then walked 77 1 back through the break room. 2 Q. What did you observe in the break room, Mr. 3 Graham? 4 A. Just a terrible mess, blood and water gushing 5 here and there and people screaming and hollering, you know. 6 Q. Who did you see there in the break room? 7 A. Kenny Fentress, Herman Hoffmann -- no. Hoffmann 8 was already outside the door in the office using the -- trying 9 to call on the phone. Kenny Fentress was in there and William 10 Ganote and -- really I can't say. I know them -- Kenny was 11 hollering and Ganote was still sitting in a chair. 12 Q. Was Ganote making any movements or saying 13 anything? 14 A. No, none whatsoever. 15 Q. Did you see Mike Campbell? 16 A. I seen him out in the hallway after I circled 17 and went back out through the hallway. Mike was out in the 18 hallway trying to crawl, trying to go out through the hallway. 19 Q. Anybody else that you remember seeing in the 20 area? 21 A. Bud Graser was standing at the trough there 22 shaving, you know. I talked to him, you know. 23 Q. How about Mr. Wible? 24 A. He was sitting down leaning against the proof 25 press rack there. I talked to him. 78 1 Q. What was said between the two of you? 2 A. I asked him -- he was sweating and he was real 3 white, and I said, "Can I get a wet washcloth or something for 4 your head, Jim," and he said, "No, I just want to get out of 5 here but my legs won't work." 6 Q. Did you observe where he was shot? 7 A. I couldn't tell. He was sitting down right 8 here. He was probably shot right here someplace. I couldn't 9 see, you know. 10 Q. But he was conscious and he was talking? 11 A. Right. 12 Q. Was it your understanding he was out of the 13 pressroom when he was shot? 14 A. I guess he was walking through there, and when 15 he was shot he just sat down, but he was sitting when I came 16 out. 17 Q. And was it your understanding that he later 18 died? 19 A. Oh, yeah. I mean, I don't know when, but he was 20 conscious when I, you know, seen him. 21 Q. Did you see Joseph Wesbecker's body? 22 A. Laying right in front of the office door 23 facedown. 24 Q. Did you recognize it as Joseph Wesbecker's body? 25 A. Yes. 79 1 Q. Before that, had you ever seen Joseph Wesbecker 2 with any guns? 3 A. With any guns? 4 Q. Yes. 5 A. No. 6 Q. Did you-all ever talk about guns? 7 A. No. 8 Q. How about Lloyd White? Did you ever see Lloyd 9 White? 10 A. Did I see him that morning? 11 Q. Yeah. 12 A. Not after the shooting, no. 13 Q. Did you see him afterwards? 14 A. No, I didn't see him. 15 Q. Did you ever perceive, Mr. Graham, Standard 16 Gravure as being a dangerous place to work as far as someone 17 coming in and committing a criminal act against employees 18 there? 19 A. No. I can't say that I -- you know, I never 20 thought that, no. 21 Q. Did you ever have any fear for your personal 22 safety while you were inside Standard Gravure plant? 23 A. Not bodily -- not from somebody else, no, not no 24 employee, no. 25 Q. Other than the risk inherent in these large 80 1 presses, did you perceive any risk up to September 14th, 1989? 2 A. No. 3 Q. That's all I have. Thank you, Mr. Graham. 4 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher? 5 6 EXAMINATION ___________ 7 8 BY_MR._STOPHER: __ ___ _______ 9 Q. Mr. Graham, if I understand correctly, you were 10 a pressman at Standard Gravure from I think you said 11 approximately 1964? 12 A. (Nods head affirmatively). 13 Q. Until when, sir? 14 A. Well, when the plant shut down. I don't 15 remember the exact date. 16 Q. If I told you February 4, 1992, would that sound 17 about right to you, sir? 18 A. Yeah. Yeah. 19 Q. Now, sir, during that period of time, you did 20 know Joe Wesbecker and you knew that he had a problem with 21 working the folder; am I right, sir? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. And did he tell you that his problems were 24 connected with his nerves? 25 A. Well, he told me it made him nervous when he 81 1 worked it. 2 Q. And did he tell you that he wanted to be off of 3 the folder so he didn't have to work it? 4 A. Yeah. He -- yeah. 5 Q. And did they take him off the folder so he never 6 had to work it? 7 A. No. They'd take him off for a day or two and 8 he'd maybe go on another shift and they'd wind up putting him 9 back on the folder on another shift. 10 Q. Do you recall, sir, who the supervisors were or 11 the foremen were that kept doing that to him? 12 A. Mainly the five-to-one, Bill McKeown and Jimmy 13 Popham. 14 Q. There were quite a number of foremen or 15 supervisors there at Standard Gravure in the '70s and the 16 '80s; am I right? 17 A. Right. 18 Q. Was Kenny Fentress a foreman, sir? 19 A. He worked as acting foreman at times when they, 20 you know, when they needed him. 21 Q. There would be regular foremen and then there 22 would be acting foremen; right? 23 A. Yeah. Assistant I guess you might call it. 24 Q. Okay. And if a man was an acting foreman and 25 the foreman wasn't there and he was in charge, would he make 82 1 the work assignments on the crews? 2 A. No. Most of the time they had two foremans. 3 They had a regular foreman and then they'd have an assistant, 4 you know. But the assistant didn't make out the list, the 5 regular foreman did most of the time. 6 Q. All right. Did other men work as acting 7 foreman, such as Mike Campbell? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And were there ever any occasions when the 10 foreman might be off or on another shift and the acting 11 foreman would take his place? 12 A. Oh, yes. 13 Q. And on those occasions would the acting foreman 14 make the job assignments? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Mr. Graham, in addition to not wanting to work 17 on the folder, did Joe Wesbecker tell you that he was bitter 18 about medical benefits at Standard Gravure? 19 A. He didn't directly tell me but I heard rumors. 20 He didn't tell me personally, no. 21 Q. What did you hear about that? 22 MR. SMITH: We object to that as being hearsay, 23 Your Honor. 24 JUDGE POTTER: Let's see you. 25 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 83 1 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, it's not a big point, 2 but I think an awful lot of hearsay should come in as to what 3 was common knowledge in the plant. This man is dead, Mr. 4 Wesbecker is; we can't question him. It's been going on for 5 now ten days. 6 JUDGE POTTER: A lot of it has been going on and 7 a lot of it is perhaps relevant. I'm going to sustain the 8 objection to him giving the details of what he thought Mr. 9 Wesbecker's complaint with his insurance was. I mean, you'll 10 just have to find the person that made it to him and call him. 11 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, I might as well deal 12 with this while I'm up here. Mr. Smith asked this man if he 13 ever heard any talk in the pressroom about perhaps any 14 particular threats. This man has denied it and I want to go 15 back into it. 16 JUDGE POTTER: Well, I think the threats may 17 have -- you know, they're going to be allowed to apportion 18 between Standard Gravure, and so the general knowledge in the 19 pressroom about whether there were or were not threats I think 20 is relevant and whether there's general knowledge about the 21 details of him not liking his job since I think it is in a 22 different category. 23 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 24 Q. Mr. Graham, did Mr. Wesbecker ever directly 25 discuss with you any concerns he had about wage freezes, 84 1 retirement benefits, medical benefits and seniority? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Mr. Graham, I thought I understood you to say 4 just a few moments ago that you didn't hear any talk about 5 threats from Joseph Wesbecker before this occurred. 6 A. I didn't. You mean him telling me that or what? 7 Q. Well, sir, did you hear about threats from Joe 8 Wesbecker? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Mr. Graham, do you remember giving testimony 11 under oath in this case on July 6, 1993? 12 A. Yeah. 13 Q. Do you recall giving and taking and agreeing to 14 abide by the same oath that you've taken today, sir? 15 A. Uh-huh. 16 Q. To tell the truth? 17 A. Uh-huh. 18 Q. Do you remember that, sir? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Let me ask you if you recall giving these 21 answers under oath beginning on Page 30, sir, Line 12. 22 "Question: Before the shootings occurred on 23 September 14, 1989, had you heard rumors or talk that he was 24 going to come back to the plant and shoot people? 25 "Answer: -- 85 1 MR. SMITH: Again, Your Honor, we object to that 2 as being hearsay; additionally, the question -- originally the 3 question directed to him was did he hear any threats from Joe 4 Wesbecker. 5 JUDGE POTTER: The objection is overruled. If 6 he hasn't read the question correctly you can take that up 7 later. 8 Q. Let me restate the question, sir, so you and I 9 are on the same wavelength. "Question: Before the shootings 10 occurred on September 14, 1989, had you heard rumors or talk 11 that he was going to come back to the plant and shoot people? 12 "Answer: Yeah. Through this guy I mentioned 13 awhile ago, Lucas, you know. 14 "Question: How long in advance of the shootings 15 did Lucas tell you about that? 16 "Answer: I can't say for sure, but, like, well, 17 Lucas was off sick some of the time himself, some kind of 18 heart problems, but he would come in once in a while and talk, 19 you know. I'm guessing two or three months, you know, maybe 20 even longer than that, but I can't say for sure. I don't 21 recall. 22 "What did he tell you about Joe Wesbecker? 23 "Answer: Well, Joe had came to his house, you 24 know, and said some of the things that he was going to do, you 25 know. 86 1 "Question: What did he say about what he was 2 going to do? 3 "Answer: Get even with some mostly supervisors 4 for making the condition he was in, you know, nervous. 5 "Question: Did he say he was going to get even? 6 "Answer: Not really, no. 7 "Question: Did Mr. Lucas tell you that he was 8 going to, quote, shoot the place up? 9 "Answer: I don't think Lucas flat blank told me 10 that, no. 11 "Question: Had you heard that from other people 12 before the shootings? 13 "Answer: I heard it through the shop, yeah, 14 that he made threats on the place and was prepared to shoot it 15 up. I guess that's when he bought his guns and stuff. I 16 don't know. 17 "Question: Do you recall who it was, sir, that 18 told you before the shootings that Wesbecker was going to come 19 back to the plant and shoot the place up? 20 "Answer: I just heard that Lucas said it. I 21 don't know whether Lucas told me or I heard it from somebody 22 else that Lucas had told. Lucas usually came in late in the 23 evening. He always worked the second shift, too, five to one, 24 and talked with people in the basement, and then when we would 25 come in at night we would hear what he had said, you know, 87 1 from somebody else, hearsay they call it, but he would come in 2 and talk to his men that he had worked with and we would come 3 on in and they would tell us what he said to them, you know, 4 that Wesbecker had made threats, and we didn't really hear it 5 firsthand. 6 "Question: Did you ever hear -- 7 MR. SMITH: Again, we're going to move to strike 8 that testimony as being triple, quadruple hearsay. 9 JUDGE POTTER: Step up here. 10 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 11 JUDGE POTTER: Wait just a second. Mr. Stopher, 12 other things aside, haven't you read him the inconsistent part 13 and isn't it time to go back and ask him questions? 14 MR. STOPHER: Well, sir, there's another section 15 in here where Mr. Lucas reported it to management at Standard 16 Gravure. 17 JUDGE POTTER: I'm going to sustain the 18 objection, not because it's hearsay, because I really think at 19 this point it's an issue of what the people had reason to know 20 down there in the pressroom, the general population, but I 21 think you have read him the inconsistent statement. 22 MR. STOPHER: All right. 23 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 24 Q. Mr. Graham, did you give that testimony under 25 oath, sir? 88 1 A. Yeah. Yeah. I'd forgotten. 2 Q. Is it still accurate? 3 A. Yeah. I'd forgotten it, see. 4 Q. You just had forgotten? 5 A. Yeah. 6 Q. Mr. Graham, do you remember whether or not these 7 threats were reported to people at Standard Gravure? 8 A. Well, that's another thing. I heard it was, you 9 know. 10 Q. Who did you -- 11 MR. SMITH: We'd make the same hearsay 12 objection. 13 JUDGE POTTER: Sustained. 14 Q. Mr. Graham, was anything ever done about threats 15 at Standard Gravure? 16 A. Not to my knowledge. 17 Q. Did anybody -- 18 MR. SMITH: Your Honor, we object to that as 19 being assuming that there were threats made at Standard 20 Gravure. 21 JUDGE POTTER: Overruled. 22 Q. Did anybody, to your knowledge, sir, investigate 23 Joe Wesbecker and threats concerning Joe Wesbecker? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Mr. Graham, let me show you a document, sir, 89 1 that's been marked as Defendant's Exhibit 167, sir, and let me 2 represent to you and to the Court that this is a document, 3 sir, that bears a date at the top of 8-9-88. 4 MR. SMITH: We have an objection, Your Honor. 5 JUDGE POTTER: Approach the bench. 6 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 7 MR. SMITH: Hearsay. 8 JUDGE POTTER: What is this? 9 MR. STOPHER: This is a document written by Joe 10 Wesbecker; he actually dictated it to Brenda Wesbecker on 11 August 9, 1988. And Mr. Graham is mentioned on Page 2 and I'd 12 like to read that to him and see if this makes any sense at 13 all to him. 14 JUDGE POTTER: All right. I'm going to sustain 15 the objection to introducing the document. If you want to 16 paraphrase but not read what's on Page 2 and ask him if he 17 knows anything about what is on Page 2... 18 MR. STOPHER: There's an incident described 19 there about Mr. Graham. 20 JUDGE POTTER: Where is it? Oh, Jimmy Graham. 21 MR. STOPHER: Yes, sir. It's beginning right 22 there in the middle of the page. 23 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Let me read it. 24 MR. STOPHER: All right. 25 JUDGE POTTER: Don't read from it but give him 90 1 a, you know, vague description and see if he knows anything 2 about it. 3 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 4 Q. Mr. Graham? 5 A. Yeah. 6 Q. Let me ask you, sir, if you recall any incident 7 involving yourself and Charlie Miller, where purportedly 8 Charlie Miller mentioned something to you that if you weren't 9 going to do anything just to go on home? Does that make any 10 sense to you, sir? 11 A. Charlie Miller didn't say that to me; I said it 12 to him. 13 Q. You said it to him. What did you say to Charlie 14 Miller? 15 MR. SMITH: Objection as being hearsay and 16 irrelevant. 17 MR. STOPHER: I'm just doing what he asked me to 18 do, Judge. 19 JUDGE POTTER: Let's see you-all. 20 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 21 JUDGE POTTER: Where are we going, Mr. Stopher? 22 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, this is a list that 23 Mr. Wesbecker made of individuals who had claimed wrongs that 24 they did to him in his mind, and I want to know from this 25 gentleman whether or not this claimed wrong makes any sense 91 1 and he has any recollection of this at all. 2 JUDGE POTTER: He knows about it, obviously, and 3 you've taken his deposition and asked him. 4 MR. STOPHER: He's going to say it doesn't make 5 any sense at all. 6 JUDGE POTTER: Objection is overruled. 7 MR. STOPHER: May I show him this document? 8 JUDGE POTTER: No. 9 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 10 Q. Now, going back again, sir, you recall an 11 incident where there was some talk between you and Charlie 12 Miller about one or the other of you going home? 13 A. Right. 14 Q. And did Charlie Miller go home? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Was there then an incident that -- in which 17 somebody named Simiters? 18 A. Smithers. 19 Q. Smithers. Was a foreman in Area One and wrote 20 him up for walking off the job; did that occur? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And that Charlie came in on the next shift, five 23 to one; does that make sense, sir? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And Miller and McKeown -- or McKeown talked to 92 1 Smithers and got him to tidy it up? 2 A. It probably says tear up the letter. 3 MR. SMITH: Your Honor, Counsel is referring to 4 a document that has been rejected when offered into evidence. 5 JUDGE POTTER: Well, objection is overruled, and 6 if you want to let him read through that, Mr. Stopher, so 7 he'll know what you're talking about, you can. This is just 8 trying to lay a foundation and ask him some questions, I 9 assume. 10 MR. STOPHER: Right. 11 Q. I'm sorry, sir. This is referring here on this 12 second page. 13 A. Yeah. okay. 14 Q. All right. Miller and McKeown talked to 15 Smithers and got him to tear it up; is that right, sir? 16 A. Uh-huh. 17 Q. What did he tear up? 18 A. Like a letter that he had written him up for 19 leaving work early, see, walking off the job, what they call 20 it. And when you did that they'd write you up, see. 21 Q. I see. 22 A. And the two foremans got their heads together 23 and decided he wasn't guilty of it, so they tore it up. 24 Q. Did Joe Wesbecker ever bring this matter up to 25 you, sir? 93 1 A. No. 2 Q. That he thought it was some kind of unfair 3 treatment of him or somebody else? 4 A. I don't know why he -- I have no idea, really. 5 Q. Do you recall anything, sir, about Joe Wesbecker 6 running the north-line reel and that you made him strip two 7 big stumps while running the reel and put plates on wrong 8 before we started up; do you recall anything like that? 9 A. I made him? 10 Q. Yes, sir. 11 A. Not me. It must have been a foreman. 12 Q. It must have been a foreman? Do you know 13 anything about that kind of incident involving you at all, 14 sir? 15 A. No. 16 Q. That's all I have, sir. Thank you, sir. 17 JUDGE POTTER: Anything further, Mr. Smith? 18 19 FURTHER_EXAMINATION _______ ___________ 20 21 BY_MR._SMITH: __ ___ _____ 22 Q. Did you ever see Joe Wesbecker engage in any 23 unusual or abnormal behavior in any way yourself, personally? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Did you ever have any complaints about the 94 1 quality of work that Joe Wesbecker did? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Graham. 4 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much, sir. You 5 may step down; you're excused. 6 Mr. Smith, do you want to call your next 7 witness. 8 MR. SMITH: Yes. We call Thomas Evans, Your 9 Honor. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Madame Sheriff, it's Thomas 11 Evans. 12 Mr. Evans, would you step down here and raise 13 your right hand, sir. Right here, sir. 14 15 THOMAS L. EVANS, after first being duly sworn, 16 was examined and testified as follows: 17 18 JUDGE POTTER: Would you please walk around and 19 have a seat in the witness box. Sir, would you keep your 20 voice up good and loud and spell your first and last name and 21 then say your name for us. 22 MR. EVANS: Spell? T-H-O-M-A-S, L, E-V-A-N-S. 23 Thomas L. Evans. 24 JUDGE POTTER: Go ahead, Mr. Smith. 25 95 1 EXAMINATION ___________ 2 3 BY_MR._SMITH: __ ___ _____ 4 Q. How old a man are you, Mr. Evans? 5 A. Fifty-four. 6 Q. And where do you live? 7 A. 824 Melford. 8 Q. Here in Louisville? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Kentucky? 11 A. Right. 12 Q. How long have you lived here? 13 A. About 20 years. 14 Q. Have you ever worked at Standard Gravure, Mr. 15 Evans? 16 A. Yes, I did. 17 Q. When did you start working for Standard Gravure? 18 A. About '63, I guess. 19 Q. And how long did you continue to work for them? 20 A. Till they closed in February of '92, or 21 whatever. I worked there 26 years, so I guess it must have 22 been '66, I guess. 23 Q. What was your job at Standard Gravure? 24 A. Folder man. 25 Q. Folder man? 96 1 A. Folder. Folder. First man, second man on the 2 folder. I used to work the folder. 3 Q. Is that a pressman? 4 A. Yes. Pressman, yes. 5 Q. Did you know Joe Wesbecker? 6 A. Yes, I knew him. 7 Q. Did you come to know Joe Wesbecker when he 8 started becoming employed at Standard Gravure in the early 9 1970s? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. What type of fellow was Joe Wesbecker when he 12 came on? 13 A. Just a regular guy to me. 14 Q. In what respect? 15 A. What do you mean what respect? I mean, just 16 somebody I worked with. 17 Q. What type of worker was he? 18 A. He was a good worker. 19 Q. Was he an outgoing, cheerful fellow? 20 A. Yeah, I guess he was. I mean, I talked to him; 21 he talked to me. I didn't hardly work the same shift he did. 22 Q. That was going to be my next question. How 23 often did you and he work the same shift? 24 A. I went on day work for about five to six months 25 and he was on the Number Three Reel. That was about the 97 1 only -- usually he was on five-to-one and I was on one-to- 2 nine. I went back on one-to-nine after that so... 3 Q. Did you ever observe Mr. Wesbecker having any 4 problems with nerves in connection with operating the folder? 5 A. No, I didn't. 6 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Wesbecker operating the 7 folder? 8 A. Yeah. I believe I did back in Area Two some, I 9 would relieve him, it seemed like. 10 Q. When would that have been? 11 A. You mean the year? 12 Q. Yes. 13 A. I guess in the '80s, '86, '85, I don't remember 14 exactly. 15 Q. Did Mr. Wesbecker make complaints at that time 16 about working the folder? 17 A. I never -- he never did complain to me. 18 Q. Did you ever know or hear anything about Mr. 19 Wesbecker having a nervous condition? 20 A. Yeah. I've heard. I've heard that, yes. 21 Q. Did in fact you receive some books from Mr. 22 Wesbecker on nervous conditions or mental disorders? 23 A. Yes, sir; I did. 24 Q. Tell the jury about that. 25 A. Well, when I went on day work -- I was working 98 1 one to nine and it seemed like I was kind of tired all the 2 time. And then when I went on day work it seemed like I had a 3 lot of energy. So I was down looking at the board one day and 4 I said something to Wesbecker, and he said, "How do you like 5 day work," and I said, "It seems like I have a lot of energy." 6 He said, "I'll bring you some books in to look at for your 7 nerves." So he brought me a couple books in. 8 Q. And did he do that? 9 A. Yes, he did. 10 Q. Do you remember what those books were titled or 11 anything about those books? 12 A. I don't remember. No, I don't. 13 Q. Did they seem to be mental health books? 14 A. Tell you the truth, I really didn't look at them 15 that good, but I think they was on your nerves, and I think it 16 was some medicine but I didn't really get into it that... 17 Q. Did you get any impression or did Mr. Wesbecker 18 tell you as to where he had gotten those books? 19 A. No, he didn't. He just said, "I'll bring you in 20 a couple books." A couple days later he brought them in. 21 Q. Were you aware that he had these books because 22 he had been suffering from a mental nervous condition? 23 A. No, not really. 24 Q. As I recall, this was in 1988 when he brought 25 you these books? 99 1 A. Well, that's what I said, but then I think he 2 retired before that, I mean, he quit before then so I'm 3 probably wrong about that. I think it was probably '86 or so, 4 maybe. 5 Q. Did you ever observe Joe Wesbecker himself being 6 agitated or nervous or anything of that nature? 7 A. No. I didn't personally, no. 8 Q. Did you ever notice any change in Joe Wesbecker 9 over the years? 10 A. Well, I noticed, like I say, he ran the reel on 11 Number Three and they had the markup board down there, and I'd 12 go down and look at it. And it seemed like there at the last 13 that he got kind of -- it didn't seem like he spoke as much. 14 He didn't seem as friendly to me. 15 Q. What are you talking about when you say "at the 16 last"? 17 A. Well, I mean, right before he quit or took 18 unemployment or whatever. 19 Q. Did he seem more withdrawn? 20 A. Seemed like it to me, yes. 21 Q. Did he ever jump on you or fuss at you during 22 this period of time? 23 A. No. He never done that. It just seemed like he 24 wouldn't speak or something like that. Seemed like he wasn't 25 as friendly to me. 100 1 Q. Did you hear him complaining about anybody in 2 particular during this period of time or have any particular 3 complaint? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Were you at work on September 14th, 1989? 6 A. No, I wasn't. 7 Q. Where were you? 8 A. I was home. 9 Q. Was this just not your shift? 10 A. Well, I was off that day -- I think I traded off 11 days because I was going out that Wednesday night and I think 12 I traded off days with somebody, the best I can remember, 13 because I was going out that night and I didn't want to go in 14 on the one to nine. I worked one to nine. 15 Q. Did you ever have a fear for your personal 16 safety while working at Standard Gravure? 17 A. From who, from the fire, from anything, you 18 mean? 19 Q. From any person that you were working with? 20 A. Oh, person, no. Hunh-uh. No, I didn't. 21 Q. You're working around big presses and there was 22 always, as I understand it, a potential for fire? 23 A. Yes. Always. Right. 24 Q. But is this the nature of any pressroom 25 anywhere? 101 1 A. I would imagine it is, yes. 2 Q. But as far as any threat or danger from the 3 people that you were working with and around, did you ever 4 feel threatened? 5 A. No. No. 6 Q. Did you ever hear any threats made against 7 anybody there at the plant? 8 A. Not that I remember. 9 Q. Did you ever see any guns on the premises at 10 Standard Gravure? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Did you ever hear any gunshots or any discharge 13 of guns at Standard Gravure? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Did you even know whether or not there was a gun 16 policy in effect? 17 A. I didn't. No, I don't. 18 Q. Were there a lot of fights on the premises or 19 were there any fights there at work? 20 A. A lot of what, facts? 21 Q. Fights. Physical fights, arguments. 22 A. Oh, fights. Oh. No, not that I know of. 23 Q. Thank you, Mr. Evans. 24 A. Okay. 25 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher? 102 1 EXAMINATION ___________ 2 3 BY_MR._STOPHER: __ ___ _______ 4 Q. Mr. Graham, just a couple of questions. 5 A. I'm Mr. Evans. 6 Q. I'm sorry. Mr. Evans. I apologize to you. Mr. 7 Evans, you were not there on September 14, 1989? 8 A. That's right. 9 Q. You did hear about it shortly thereafter, did 10 you not, sir? 11 A. My son called me, yes. 12 Q. And when you first heard about it, sir, did you 13 know who it was? 14 MR. SMITH: We'd object to that, Your Honor; 15 that calls for speculation. It also contradicts the prior 16 order of the Court. 17 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 18 JUDGE POTTER: I assume he's going to answer 19 yes. 20 MR. STOPHER: Oh, yeah. I brought this up the 21 very first day before we started with the first witness, and I 22 said I want to know what the rule is going to be as to whether 23 or not these people are going to be able to say I thought it 24 was him or it wasn't him, and I understood the Court to say 25 that you were going to allow that. 103 1 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith, why wouldn't it be 2 relevant? You asked him did you ever hear any threats or 3 anything, no, no. We're getting into what kinds of rumors are 4 running around the pressroom. Why shouldn't he be able to ask 5 him if the guy says yes? 6 MR. SMITH: From my understanding of the Court's 7 ruling you said we couldn't do that, that whether or not they 8 were surprised it would be Joe Wesbecker. 9 JUDGE POTTER: You have asked most of them. Oh, 10 yeah. You've asked all of them: Did you ever see anything in 11 Mr. Wesbecker's whole life or ever hear anything in his whole 12 life. 13 MR. SMITH: But I didn't ask them to come to 14 that conclusion as to whether or not this is something that 15 would have or wouldn't have been done. 16 JUDGE POTTER: I think he's asking him ever who 17 it might have been, before they gave you the name and he's 18 going to say yes, apparently, and the next question is going 19 to be why, which is in conflict with some of the things he 20 gave earlier. 21 MR. SMITH: He's going to say who was it and 22 he's going to say Joe Wesbecker. 23 JUDGE POTTER: When you first heard about this 24 thing did you have somebody in mind as being the shooter. 25 MR. STOPHER: Right. 104 1 JUDGE POTTER: And I understand his answer is 2 going to be, yes, I thought it was probably Joe Wesbecker, and 3 I'm going to overrule the objection to that question. 4 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 5 Q. Mr. Graham, if I understand -- 6 A. Mr. Evans. 7 Q. I'm sorry. I did it again. Isn't that awful. 8 All right, sir. Let me try it again, Mr. Evans. 9 A. Okay. 10 Q. Let me ask you to accept my apologies one more 11 time. I'm not going to make that mistake again, sir. 12 You first heard about the shootings from your 13 son? 14 A. Right. 15 Q. He called you and told you that there had been 16 shootings at Standard Gravure? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And without being told, sir, did you have an 19 idea as to who it was? 20 A. Well, I thought of a couple people that had 21 grievances against the company. 22 Q. Who were they, sir? 23 A. Well, Wesbecker was one of them. 24 Q. He had been having trouble with the company, 25 grievances and the like? 105 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Thank you, sir. That's all I have. 3 A. Okay. 4 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith? 5 6 FURTHER_EXAMINATION _______ ___________ 7 8 BY_MR._SMITH: __ ___ _____ 9 Q. Mr. Wesbecker's name wasn't the only name that 10 flashed through your mind? 11 A. No, it wasn't. 12 Q. Did you have any personal knowledge of anything 13 that Wesbecker did or was about to do that might cause him to 14 come into your mind? 15 A. No. I knew just that he had been having a lot 16 of trouble. 17 Q. Other than the fact that he was having problems 18 with the folder, anything else? 19 A. No. That's all. 20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Evans. 21 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much, Mr. Evans. 22 You may step down; you're excused. 23 MR. EVANS: Okay. Thank you. 24 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith, it's all right to 25 break for the day? 106 1 MR. SMITH: That's all our witnesses, Your 2 Honor. I didn't know I was in charge here. 3 JUDGE POTTER: Well... 4 Ladies and gentlemen, I'm going to take the 5 recess for the weekend. Monday is 9:30, all right, so when I 6 say 9:30 this time, I mean it. 7 I'm going to give you the same admonition I've 8 given you before and, again, and I cannot emphasize it 9 strongly enough the thing about letting people communicate 10 with you on this case applies to your friends, your neighbors, 11 your families. And I don't know about your-all's family, but 12 if they're like my family they're going to kind of wheedle on 13 you. All right? You tell them no once and then, you know, 14 they'll bring it up again with you and kind of find out where 15 the border is on what you say. So you-all be firm on that. 16 Also, the same thing with the newspapers and the television or 17 the radio or whatever. You know, do not let anybody 18 communicate with you through those means. 19 Also, do not form or express opinions about the 20 case and, of course, do not discuss it with each other. I'll 21 see you-all Monday morning at 9:30. 22 (JURORS EXCUSED AT 12:05 P.M.; THE 23 FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS OCCURRED IN ROOM 148) 24 JUDGE POTTER: You-all need to give the Court 25 Reporter your home telephone numbers and make sure she has a 107 1 good way to get in touch with you if she wants to. 2 Mr. Stopher, I can't remember whether you were 3 there when Mr. Smith -- I think it was just Mr. Freeman 4 discussed it. I will plan to be here Monday at 7:00. I have 5 a home phone and an answering machine, and if for some reason 6 you-all think you don't need an hour, hour and a half or two 7 hours before Monday, just leave it on the answering machine. 8 And even if you don't leave it on the answering machine, I've 9 got a motion hour and a lot of things; it will not bother me 10 to come -- I'll be here at 7:30 even if I don't hear from you 11 because I know you want to get your deposition objections 12 worked on. And is Slater -- I looked back and Slater is a 13 nonvideo; is Stark a video? 14 MS. ZETTLER: In part, yes, Judge. 15 JUDGE POTTER: I looked through it and maybe we 16 can take a minute and knock them out right now. I suspect -- 17 so you want to play Stark on Monday; is that right? 18 MS. ZETTLER: Yes, Judge. 19 JUDGE POTTER: We'll take some time and do Stark 20 because there really looks like only about three or four that 21 amount to anything. I suspect they're probably entitled to 22 completenesss and you don't have changing putative to 23 punitive. Let's get through what we've got to get through and 24 sit down and -- does somebody have a copy of Mr. Stark's here? 25 MS. ZETTLER: Let me step out and see. 108 1 MR. STOPHER: Before you-all go out there to do 2 that, let me ask you an unrelated question and maybe I can be 3 excused along with Mr. Freeman. On Monday you're not going to 4 call any more pressmen or the other people that are on your 5 list live? 6 MR. SMITH: You've got the weekend off. 7 MR. STOPHER: That's what I want to know. 8 JUDGE POTTER: One other thing before Mr. 9 Stopher leaves. There's an order I think I told you-all I was 10 going to enter that's about giving up your experts for the 11 punitive damage should there be such an apportion. Also for a 12 mailing address, Mr. Smith, you probably need to -- 13 MS. SMITH: Use Mr. Foley's office. 14 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Mr. Foley's office. 15 One other point, one of the jurors mentioned to 16 my sheriff, and I have -- I had not noticed it, but she said 17 she found this distracting. After my sheriff mentioned it me, 18 I observed it. And I can't say I saw anything that I thought 19 was improper, but I convinced myself that the juror that 20 mentioned it to my sheriff was indeed observing something and 21 I don't know whether it's out of boredom, the people that sit 22 behind you-all at those tables are -- I mean, boredom must 23 reach an incredible level back there. But one of your 24 assistants -- and I don't know whether it's done deliberately 25 as part of something for closing argument but is obviously 109 1 counting one of Mr. Stopher's mannerisms. I don't know what 2 it is, whether it's number of times he uses a certain word or 3 a phrase or something, I don't know what it is. And then 4 apparently when he does do this, somebody goes like that and 5 they nod to each other. And I don't know what it is, but one 6 of the jurors finds that very distracting. If you're keeping 7 track, have them do it through the dailies. If it's just 8 strictly boredom, which I suspect it is, just tell them, you 9 know, they need to keep poker faces. And I observed it the 10 second half, Mr. Stopher, and it was nothing you would find 11 objectionable and I would find objectionable, but I think when 12 they're looking at you, they're the background, so that's 13 probably very distracting for the jury. 14 You have a copy of Mr. Stark? We'll knock it 15 out. 16 (OFF THE RECORD) 17 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Myers's objections to the 18 deposition of Doctor Stark set out on a document that he gave 19 to us today are sustained with the exception of Page 9, 20 Lines 14 through 25; Page 129, Lines 20 through 23. 21 On the deposition of March 29th, they are all 22 sustained, plus on Page 233, Line 1 is added to what's 23 sustained on 232. Page 278, Lines 1 and 2 are sustained. 24 In the deposition of June 28th, Page 38 is 25 sustained, plus Page 39, 1 through 22 shall be added back in, 110 1 and I can't remember whether that's plaintiff or defendant; 2 148 and 149 are overruled. 3 (PROCEEDINGS TERMINATED THIS DATE AT 12:50 P.M.) 4 * * * 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 111 1 STATE OF KENTUCKY )( )( Sct. 2 COUNTY OF JEFFERSON )( 3 I, JULIA K. McBRIDE, Notary Public, State of 4 Kentucky at Large, hereby certify that the foregoing 5 Transcript of the Proceedings was taken at the time and place 6 stated in the caption; that the appearances were as set forth 7 in the caption; that said proceeding was taken down by me in 8 stenographic notes and thereafter reduced under my supervision 9 to the foregoing typewritten pages and that said typewritten 10 transcript is a true, accurate and complete record of my 11 stenographic notes so taken. 12 I further certify that I am not related by blood 13 or marriage to any of the parties hereto and that I have no 14 interest in the outcome of captioned case. 15 My commission as Notary Public expires 16 December 21, 1996. 17 Given under my hand this the__________day of 18 ______________________, 1994, at Louisville, Kentucky. 19 20 21 22 23 _____________________________ 24 NOTARY PUBLIC 25