1 1 NO. 90-CI-06033 JEFFERSON CIRCUIT COURT DIVISION ONE 2 3 4 JOYCE FENTRESS, et al PLAINTIFFS 5 6 VS TRANSCRIPT_OF_THE_PROCEEDINGS __________ __ ___ ___________ 7 8 9 SHEA COMMUNICATIONS, et al DEFENDANTS 10 11 * * * 12 13 14 MONDAY, OCTOBER 31, 1994 15 VOLUME XXVI 16 17 * * * 18 19 20 21 _____________________________________________________________ REPORTER: JULIA K. McBRIDE 22 Coulter, Shay, McBride & Rice 1221 Starks Building 23 455 South Fourth Avenue Louisville, Kentucky 40202 24 (502) 582-1627 FAX: (502) 587-6299 25 2 1 2 I_N_D_E_X _ _ _ _ _ 3 4 WITNESS: BRENDA_J._CAMP (Continued) _______ ______ __ ____ 5 By Mr. Stopher........................................... 4 By Mr. Smith............................................. 42 6 By Mr. Stopher........................................... 73 7 WITNESS:__THOMAS_GOSLING ________ ______ _______ 8 By Mr. Stopher........................................... 77 By Mr. Smith.............................................105 9 By Mr. Stopher...........................................128 By Mr. Smith.............................................131 10 By Mr. Stopher...........................................132 11 WITNESS:__JAMES_POPHAM ________ _____ ______ 12 By Mr. Stopher...........................................133 By Ms. Zettler...........................................155 13 WITNESS: WILLIAM_B._HELM _______ _______ __ ____ 14 Voir Dire by Judge Potter................................159 15 * * * 16 Hearing in Chambers......................................167 17 Reporter's Certificate...................................170 18 19 * * * 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 1 2 A_P_P_E_A_R_A_N_C_E_S _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 3 4 FOR THE PLAINTIFFS: 5 PAUL L. SMITH Suite 745 6 Campbell Center II 8150 North Central Expressway 7 Dallas, Texas 75206 8 NANCY ZETTLER 1405 West Norwell Lane 9 Schaumburg, Illinois 60193 10 IRVIN D. FOLEY Rubin, Hays & Foley 11 300 South, First Trust Centre Louisville, Kentucky 40202 12 13 FOR THE DEFENDANT: 14 EDWARD H. STOPHER Boehl, Stopher & Graves 15 2300 Providian Center Louisville, Kentucky 40202 16 JOE C. FREEMAN, JR. 17 LAWRENCE J. MYERS Freeman & Hawkins 18 4000 One Peachtree Center 303 Peachtree Street, N.E. 19 Atlanta, Georgia 30308 20 * * * 21 22 23 24 25 4 1 The Transcript of the Proceedings, taken before 2 The Honorable John Potter in the Multipurpose Courtroom, Old 3 Jail Office Building, Louisville, Kentucky, commencing on 4 Monday, October 31, 1994, at approximately 9:35 A.M., said 5 proceedings occurred as follows: 6 7 * * * 8 9 SHERIFF CECIL: All rise. The Honorable Judge 10 John Potter is now presiding. Court is now in session. All 11 jurors are present. You may be seated. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Please be seated. Ladies and 13 gentlemen of the jury, did anybody have any difficulty 14 observing my admonition about getting information on this case 15 from friends, neighbors, television, newspapers? Okay. 16 Ms. Camp, I'll ask you to retake the stand, 17 ma'am. I'll remind you you're still under oath. Ma'am, I 18 remind you you're still under oath. 19 Mr. Stopher. 20 MR. STOPHER: Thank you, Judge. 21 22 EXAMINATION 23 24 BY_MR._STOPHER: (Continued) __ ___ _______ 25 Q. Ms. Camp, let me direct your attention again 5 1 back to Joseph Wesbecker, and just to kind of get us some 2 historical perspective again, if I recall correctly, you told 3 us on Friday that you met him the Thanksgiving -- around 4 Thanksgiving of 1980? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Married in 1981? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Divorced in 1984? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And then in 1985, he purchased the house on 11 Nottoway Circle, and you went to live with him there? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And then you lived with him at Nottoway until 14 around Thanksgivingtime of 1988? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. And then if I understand correctly, after 17 Thanksgiving of 1988, you lived at your father's house 18 continuously on Blevins Gap Road? 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. And if I understand correctly, your father died 21 and left the house to you, and your father died in July of 22 '89; am I right? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. Did you say the 14th of July? 25 A. 14th of July. 6 1 Q. Now, again, just in terms of historical 2 perspective and then I'll hopefully not retrace any of the 3 steps that we did on Friday, during that last year, so far as 4 you know, Joseph Wesbecker lived alone in the house on 5 Nottoway; am I correct about that? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And if I understand correctly, you would check 8 on him from time to time; is that right? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. And sometimes he would come to your house on 11 Blevins Gap Road? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. During that period of time, the time that you 14 moved out, until the time of these shootings on September 14, 15 1989, did he have any social friends, to your knowledge? 16 A. I don't know with us not living together. I 17 mean, we went out. He went out with his son, Jimmy. He would 18 go check -- I don't remember the exact date Grandma Montgomery 19 passed away. He would go to the nursing home and check on 20 her. Beyond that, I don't know who he went out with. 21 Q. Did he ever mention to you that he had been out 22 with anybody or that he had any friends or any interests or 23 any social contact? 24 A. No. I didn't ask. 25 Q. And he didn't tell you anything about that? 7 1 A. No. 2 Q. Now, on Friday, we were talking near the end of 3 your testimony about a red Chevrolet Monza vehicle shown in 4 some photographs; right? 5 A. Correct. 6 Q. And if I recall correctly, that is and was -- or 7 was, is perhaps the right term -- your vehicle that you owned? 8 A. Yes. My father helped me buy that car after my 9 first divorce. 10 Q. And you let Joseph Wesbecker drive it; am I 11 correct? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. Did he own a vehicle at that time? 14 A. He signed his -- I guess, I don't know if he 15 still -- I believe he put his Oldsmobile in his son's name and 16 he would ask to borrow my car. 17 Q. Now, he had at some point in time an Oldsmobile, 18 if I understand correctly, then? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. And what did he do with that vehicle? 21 A. He gave it to his son Jimmy. 22 Q. And did Jimmy drive it? 23 A. As far as I know. 24 Q. Where was it kept? 25 A. I don't know because I wasn't in the marriage 8 1 anymore and Jimmy lived with Joe's ex-wife, Sue, so I don't 2 know where they lived after they left Dixie Highway. 3 Q. Was that vehicle ever kept or parked at Blevins 4 Gap Road at your house or your father's house at times? 5 A. When Jimmy would come to visit me or come to 6 visit his dad when he was over seeing me. Sometimes I had 7 Jimmy over and he would visit. 8 Q. Would it be parked in front or would it be 9 parked in back? 10 A. It would have been parked in front and in the 11 back some. 12 Q. Why would it be parked in the back sometimes? 13 A. At one time Joe took the car away from his son 14 because of exposure problems and he wouldn't let him drive for 15 a while. 16 Q. Did he want people to see that vehicle at his 17 house or your house? 18 A. Well, at my home it wouldn't be seen back by 19 garages. At the house on Nottoway, it would have been seen 20 unless he put it in the garage. 21 Q. Why did Joe Wesbecker not want that vehicle to 22 be seen in connection with him? 23 A. It wasn't with him; it was with his son. 24 Q. And why didn't he want it to be seen? 25 A. Because Jimmy had exposure problems and he had a 9 1 lot of people that were not happy with him. And I don't know 2 all the details. You know, Jimmy stopped being my stepson in 3 1984, even though I still seen him and tried to treat him 4 nice. I don't know why all; they talked themselves on that. 5 Q. Did Joe Wesbecker then have in the year 1988, 6 1989, any vehicle that he owned at all? 7 A. Not that I'm aware of. 8 Q. Ms. Camp, could Joe Wesbecker drive easily? 9 A. No, not real easy. 10 Q. Could you explain what his problems were with 11 driving? 12 A. Joe wanted to be extra careful with him being on 13 medication that he wasn't driving. He would have trouble with 14 his vision at night. He didn't like to go to the county jail 15 by himself to visit his son, the emotion of that, so I would 16 usually drive him after work. I guess that's the only 17 reasons. He never give me any other reasons. 18 Q. Was it easier for him to drive at night or in 19 the daytime? 20 A. I believe in the daytime but he didn't -- he was 21 on disability from Social Security in the end, so I really 22 don't know when he drove, you know, other than when I went 23 with him. 24 Q. Did his vision problems in driving, were they 25 greater at night or in the daytime? 10 1 A. What he told me they were worse in the night. 2 That's why I would take him places. 3 Q. Let me show you a map that is enlarged. Can you 4 see that from where you sit? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. I'm not sure that everybody else can but let 7 me -- if I turn it a little; is that all right? Can everybody 8 see it? Let me first of all get you oriented on this map just 9 a little bit. Up here at the very top, the northern edge, is 10 the Ohio River, the downtown area here. And at the very 11 bottom of this map is 265, or the Gene Snyder, and Blevins Gap 12 Road runs along the border in that area; correct? Are you 13 kind of generally oriented now? 14 A. As best I can by looking at it. 15 Q. Okay. Admittedly a lot of details and a lot of 16 surface streets are missing off of this map, so it's not 17 complete by any means. There are a lot of things that have 18 not been shown. You recognize Churchill Downs and the 19 airport, Iroquois Park. I've also marked on this map Nottoway 20 Circle, which is between Dixie and I believe -- well, I'll let 21 you talk about it in a second. Do you see that mark? 22 A. Uh-huh. 23 Q. I've also marked Trent Street. Okay. Now, are 24 you generally familiar now with the areas that I'm talking 25 about as shown on this map? 11 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. Can you tell me generally where your house is 3 located along -- or your dad's house is located on Blevins Gap 4 Road? 5 A. It's about two miles off Dixie Highway, so I'm 6 closer to Dixie Highway. 7 Q. So if I start on this edge, go about two miles 8 and that would be about where you were? 9 A. I'm closer to Dixie; correct. 10 Q. In looking at this map, it appears to me, using 11 this scale, that that location is about perhaps as much as 15 12 to 20 miles from the downtown area; is that approximately 13 right? 14 A. I believe it's approximately 17 miles. 15 Q. Seventeen miles by your -- 16 A. When I drive it, I would say about 17 miles. 17 Q. All right. And in looking at the map and 18 Nottoway Circle, it appears that that home is about maybe five 19 to six miles as the crow flies and perhaps a little longer 20 than that by road; is that a fair statement? 21 A. I've never measured the distance between those 22 two houses; I just always drove it, so I don't honestly know. 23 Q. Okay. All right. And am I correct that Sue and 24 Jimmy lived on Trent Street? 25 A. Yeah. It was across from Zayre's. It's now 12 1 Kroger's. Yeah, I believe it was Trent. 2 Q. Okay. And not too far from where the Roy's 3 place of business is on Dixie? 4 A. You could have walked it. Yeah. They were real 5 close. 6 Q. Okay. I'll put this aside. Now, in the period 7 of time shortly before you moved out, was there ever an 8 incident involving lawn mowers at the house on Nottoway? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. Would you tell the jury about that incident. 11 A. I always cut the grass there, I mean, most of 12 the time. Sometimes when we first moved in, Joe would cut 13 grass or he would get Jimmy to cut it; in the end, I always 14 cut it. And both lawn mowers were giving trouble so Joe took 15 a -- I don't know if it's a sledge hammer, an axe, I don't 16 know. I wasn't in the garage when he was doing it, I could 17 just -- I was in the kitchen close to the den and he was 18 either -- I don't know, beating the lawn mowers to death or 19 cutting them up. But they weren't usable. You know, he tore 20 up our lawn mowers. 21 Q. Did he ever give any warning that he was going 22 to do that? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Did he ever give any explanation afterwards as 25 to why he did that? 13 1 A. He just said we wouldn't be cutting grass 2 anymore. 3 Q. And was that before you moved out in November of 4 '88? 5 A. Yeah. As best -- I don't remember -- I would 6 say it was the summer because that was when we'd be cutting 7 grass, and I moved out in November. 8 Q. And if I understand correctly, it wasn't too 9 long after that that you moved out to your father's house on 10 Blevins Gap? 11 A. I didn't -- I mean, my father become real ill, 12 he become hospitalized, so I moved back in with him. 13 Q. Now, Ms. Camp, in connection with Joe Wesbecker 14 and going back now some period of time, did you ever know of 15 any physical fights or incidents that he had with Sue 16 Wesbecker? 17 A. One. 18 Q. Would you tell us about that, please. 19 A. I went to get my daughter uniforms for St. 20 Paul's, and when I come home he told me of the incident. I 21 don't -- I don't remember all the details. There might have 22 been two times. One time she said she was having trouble with 23 the furnace and he come home with his face all scratched up, 24 his leather coat tore and he was clawed bad, and he said she 25 tried to contain him in the house. That's only hearsay. I 14 1 wasn't there. I looked at him. That's right after we started 2 dating, I believe, and were thinking about getting married. 3 The other incident, they were arguing about 4 Jimmy. He went over. His side of the story, he said he 5 shoved her, he said, over the fence, she smacked him. I'm not 6 present. I didn't know he was going. He mentioned, "I'm 7 going over." I said, "Stay away. Let me ride with you in the 8 car." He didn't. When I come home, he told me the story 9 because I was gone to get uniforms for school, so, I mean, 10 that's the best I remember it, but I think that's the only two 11 times that I'm aware of. 12 Q. Did he ever give you any warning in advance that 13 he was going over to see her and that it might be physical or 14 there may be a fight? 15 A. No. He just said he was going over to try to 16 talk to her about Jimmy and I told him to stay away. 17 Q. On the two occasions that you told us about on 18 Friday when he attempted suicide, did he ever give any 19 warning -- not necessarily by what he said but by anything he 20 did or the way he acted in advance that indicated in any way 21 to you that he was thinking about suicide? 22 A. The carbon monoxide, no. The pills and running 23 up and down the subdivision, no. There was no prewarning. 24 Q. Nothing any different about the way he handled 25 himself or presented himself or any mood difference? 15 1 A. No. Hunh-uh. 2 Q. Nothing at all? 3 A. Nothing. 4 Q. With regard to the second attempt, which you 5 described on Friday, it involved running up and down the 6 street, and then I understood you to say that the door was 7 beat into the house and things were thrown about and there was 8 an overdose of pills, both prescription and over-the-counter? 9 A. They were all mixed together so I don't know how 10 many it took or what it -- I mean, stuff was just threw 11 places. 12 Q. Can you tell us which of these events occurred 13 first, the running up and down the street? 14 A. Let me think, because that's a long time. 15 Carbon monoxide first and running up and down the street 16 second. 17 Q. Right. All right. Now, with regard to running 18 up and down the street, did he run up and down the street 19 first or did he beat the door down first or tear the house up 20 first or take -- 21 A. I don't know. I was at work. 22 Q. All right. After you got there, what did he do? 23 A. He was running up and down the street when I was 24 driving my car down the road. I seen him. 25 Q. Had he already beat the door down? 16 1 A. The house was already -- yeah, I mean, it was 2 already when I got in. 3 Q. And when did he take the pills? 4 A. I don't know. I mean, through the day. I 5 wasn't there. 6 Q. You said you stayed there that night. Did he 7 take more pills that night? 8 A. I don't know. I locked myself in a bedroom and 9 didn't come out. 10 Q. Now, during the approximately nine years that 11 you knew him, did he want you to talk about his mental illness 12 to other people? 13 A. I guess I would have to say no. 14 Q. Would he let you talk to his mother about his 15 mental problems? 16 MR. SMITH: We're going to object to the leading 17 nature of the questions. 18 JUDGE POTTER: Sustained. 19 Q. Did he ever tell you you could or you could not 20 discuss his mental problems with somebody else? 21 A. In the beginning, with his mother and I we had a 22 good relationship. I would still see her at some family 23 functions and we would talk. As far as forbidding me -- 24 Q. As far as what, ma'am? 25 A. Forbidding -- forbidding me to talk to her about 17 1 it, I mean, he just didn't want me to talk to her the last 2 probably three years I knew him because he wasn't talking to 3 her. 4 Q. All right. Let me see if this reference in your 5 prior deposition is of any assistance to you. And I'm 6 referring to page -- 7 MR. SMITH: Can we approach the bench, Your 8 Honor? 9 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 10 MR. SMITH: We object to Mr. Stopher impeaching 11 his own witness with deposition testimony. It's not proper 12 procedure. 13 MR. STOPHER: Judge, I am entitled to remind her 14 of testimony that she's given before that may be inconsistent 15 with what she's saying now. 16 JUDGE POTTER: He can impeach his own witness. 17 MR. SMITH: With her own deposition? 18 JUDGE POTTER: Yeah. 19 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 20 Q. Again, let me ask you if you gave this testimony 21 on October 26, 1992, under oath, and I'm referring to 22 Page 174, Line 14, you said quote, you know, this is -- 23 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 24 MR. SMITH: Judge, we're going to object to 25 this. Counsel is reading the middle of the answer. 18 1 MR. STOPHER: If you want me to read the whole 2 thing, Counsel, I think you'll be objecting more. 3 MR. SMITH: Object to the side-bar comment. 4 MR. STOPHER: You made it, you started it. This 5 is one of the long answers and all I wanted to read was these 6 two paragraphs to give her some context. 7 JUDGE POTTER: (Reviews document) What part do 8 you plan to read her? 9 MR. STOPHER: Just this little part right here, 10 Judge. If he wants me to read the whole answer, I'll read the 11 whole answer, but it's just that statement under oath that I 12 wanted to remind her about. 13 JUDGE POTTER: I'm going to sustain the 14 objection. I really don't think that's inconsistent with what 15 she said today. 16 MR. STOPHER: She said today he never asked her 17 not to tell her. 18 JUDGE POTTER: She used the word forbid. 19 MR. STOPHER: Well, can I ask her to clarify? 20 JUDGE POTTER: Yes. 21 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 22 Q. Ms. Camp, did Joe Wesbecker ever ask you not to 23 tell anyone about his mental condition or about his condition 24 generally? 25 A. You know, the last question was asked to me if I 19 1 wasn't allowed to talk to his mother. The last two times Joe 2 went in the hospital he did not want me to tell his sons nor 3 his mother that he was in the hospital at Our Lady of Peace. 4 I don't know if that's -- I mean, I don't totally understand 5 the question, but he did not want me to tell them that he had 6 entered the hospital. 7 Q. Would he allow you to tell them what his 8 condition was? 9 A. I didn't talk a tremendous amount with his 10 mother or his sons. I wasn't in the marriage anymore. 11 Q. Did he tell you why he didn't want you to tell 12 them that he had been in the hospital or was in the hospital? 13 A. Joe didn't like to be around his mother anymore. 14 I can't totally speak for why their relationship was like it 15 was between mother and son. I could only speculate. I don't 16 know why Joe didn't want his sons to know everything about 17 him. I didn't ask him. I stayed out of it pretty much. 18 Q. And he didn't tell you? 19 A. He didn't tell me why. I just obeyed him. I 20 didn't go -- I don't do that to people if they have something 21 private. I don't run and tell their families and neighbors 22 and people like that about them. 23 Q. Ms. Camp, during the last year or so of his 24 life, did he have anybody other than you that would listen to 25 him? 20 1 A. The last year he lived? 2 Q. Yes, ma'am. 3 A. He was very close to Jimmy. We remained friends 4 where we went out and were together. I think he still had a 5 couple men that he was close to from Standard Gravure, but I 6 do not know their names, because when we lived at Nottoway, 7 some of the men from Standard Gravure would come by and visit 8 him, and I'd go in the house and let them talk. Other than 9 that, I don't know if he had any friends. 10 Q. During that last period of time from November of 11 '88 until September of 1989, that's about ten months in there, 12 can you tell us how many times you think you had contact with 13 him? 14 A. If I guessed without, you know, probably 80 15 times. 16 Q. It would be as often then as maybe once a week 17 or twice a week? 18 A. You couldn't give it a weekly ratio because 19 sometimes he -- like I said Friday, he might go three weeks 20 without talking to you or speaking to you. Sometimes I seen 21 him -- he was very helpful when my father passed away; my 22 mother was ill. We went to see Grandma Montgomery together in 23 the nursing home till she died, so we were together more at 24 times because I was going through hard times myself with both 25 of my parents ill, and so we might see each other every day in 21 1 a week's time and then we might go a week without seeing -- I 2 can't give it a weekly ratio. It wouldn't exist. 3 Q. During those times, if I understand correctly, 4 he may have spent the night with you or at least in your 5 father's house on Blevins Gap Road? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. And I think you told us about four times; am I 8 right? 9 A. It would be -- you know, right before Standard 10 Gravure, but he would -- come spend the whole night, I 11 cannot -- I didn't count them. There was no reason to count. 12 Four? I honestly don't know under oath. Four, eight times. 13 But he would come to visit in the day a lot. He would come 14 and help me out with my dad. Him and Jimmy would come over 15 and visited. I never counted. There was no reason to count, 16 so I don't honestly know for sure. 17 Q. During those times, did he ever tell you how he 18 was getting along with Standard Gravure? 19 A. The last Joe basically quit talking to me about 20 any of it was at Derbytime, because I remember my father being 21 in the hospital and he had to have his leg amputated. So 22 either Joe just didn't want to discuss it or he didn't want to 23 upset me with things with him since I was going through a lot. 24 I don't know which way it was. 25 Q. So around the first weekend in May of 1989? 22 1 A. Derby. 2 Q. He just stopped discussing Standard Gravure with 3 you? 4 A. Basically. I mean, he -- he might tease about 5 being on disability. He might make comments, but nothing 6 major. It was like -- the thing that shocked me the most 7 was -- his exact words -- I come home from Elizabethtown with 8 my father in the hospital and we ate supper late that night. 9 And he come over and I tried to pry and ask how he was doing. 10 And he said, "Brenda, I'm just not talking to you about things 11 anymore because if I tell you things that I would tell you, 12 you would have me put back in the hospital." His quote was -- 13 he always called me Goody Two-shoes. He said, "Since you 14 think you're Miss Goody Two-shoes, if I told you things I was 15 going to tell you, you'd call the police on me." He said, 16 "I'm just not going to talk to you and I don't want you to ask 17 me questions anymore." And that was Derby week because my 18 father had his leg amputated and I took a week's vacation. My 19 mother was in the hospital and my dad. And I remember those 20 exact words because I got off the couch, and it made me mad. 21 I said, "Well, just go on home and I'm sorry I asked." So I 22 caused a severe argument. 23 Q. And was that before or around Derbytime, 1989? 24 A. I know because my father was in the hospital 25 Derby week, so I remember the exact week. 23 1 Q. Ms. Camp, on Friday, we discussed the water and 2 the phone at Nottoway Circle, and I thought I understood you 3 to say that you had the water and the phone cut off. Do I 4 recall correctly? 5 A. Yes, sir. I made that statement Friday. 6 Q. Let me read to you a section of your deposition 7 given on October 26, 1992, beginning at Page 198, Line 14: 8 "And on one occasion at least when he was living 9 at Nottoway that lasted about three weeks? 10 "Answer: I don't talk to him, neighbors don't 11 know if he's home. He's living there by himself. That's 12 after I move in with my father. Now, the oddest thing is 13 after I moved in with my father I would go check on him. He 14 cut off the water in that house. He cut off telephone 15 service. He would pee in a can in the bedroom. It would be 16 all over the carpet of the floor. And I remember leaving my 17 dad one night saying, 'Well, I haven't heard from him for over 18 two weeks and I'm going to check on him.' I pull up and my 19 dad says, 'Well, I don't want you to go over there.' I said, 20 'Well, I'm going. I'll be back.' Dad said, 'Well, call me at 21 a pay telephone.' Joe no longer had water service, he no 22 longer had telephone service, there's no food in the 23 refrigerator, and I'm checking on my personal belongings. I 24 want to make sure he's not tearing my stuff up or anything is 25 happening to my stuff." Did you give that testimony under 24 1 oath? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. Would you explain, if there is an explanation, 4 what actually happened with regard to the water and the 5 telephone service? 6 A. When I would go over to check on Joe, I asked 7 him to please call and get the telephone taken out of my name, 8 get the water service taken out of my name since I would never 9 be living there again. I asked him to do it when I said he -- 10 I asked him to call instead of me calling. I figured if I 11 called he wouldn't know when they -- because he would go weeks 12 without talking to me. And I figured if he would call he 13 would reconnect the service in his name and that he would know 14 the date when they were going to cut the water off and know 15 the date when they would cut his phone service off. So I 16 asked him to call the telephone company. You know, I left it 17 on for a long time. 18 Q. After you moved out? 19 A. I don't even remember how long under all that 20 going on but... 21 Q. Ms. Camp, when the water wasn't there and the 22 phone was disconnected, where would he go to shave or to have 23 a bowel movement or to take a bath? 24 A. I asked him -- sometimes I let him take -- my 25 dad would let him in when I'd be at work and he would take a 25 1 bath at my father's home because my dad was glad to see him. 2 And they would keep each other company, so Dad -- he would 3 come over to the house probably, I don't know, once a week, 4 once every week and a half. 5 One time I asked him -- one time he had a lot of 6 whiskers, a lot had grown out. He would go up over -- in 7 Iroquois Heights there's a McDonald's and a Taco Bell and 8 Pizza Hut and those things close to that house. I don't know. 9 Maybe Jimmy let him. I don't know. But there was times when, 10 I don't know, maybe he went a long time without taking a bath. 11 I don't really know where he did all that. 12 Q. Did he ever tell you where he'd go to have a 13 bowel movement? 14 A. I didn't ask. 15 Q. During that period of time, did you ever ask him 16 why he was living like that in that house? 17 A. I'm sure I did after nine years of being with 18 him. You know, you cried so much and you looked at it and you 19 couldn't change the person. They wouldn't let you put them in 20 the hospital anymore. I mean, I'm sure I did. We'd been 21 friends too long. I think his answer was, "I just don't feel 22 like taking a bath. I don't go anywhere anyway being on 23 disability," so I guess his answer was -- it would have to be 24 my -- I guess he was giving up. I don't know. I'd have to 25 put words in my mouth. I really don't know why he did it. 26 1 Q. Ms. Camp, you mentioned on Friday that there 2 would be occasions that his hands would move and you even 3 demonstrated that. On occasions like that, was he able to 4 write? 5 A. Not real well, but Joe never did write a lot. 6 He didn't write a lot when we first met because he didn't 7 spell real well. I've already made that statement. So I 8 don't think Joe ever did write a tremendous amount. 9 Q. But when he was in one of those periods when his 10 hands would be shaking, could he hold a pen and write 11 normally? 12 A. When we would see each other at those times he 13 wasn't writing. We'd go to dinner or we'd watch a movie or 14 just take a ride. So he wasn't in the position to write. So 15 I don't know if he could have or he didn't. I never watched 16 it. I don't know. 17 Q. On any occasions did he ever discuss with you 18 chemicals at Standard Gravure? 19 A. Like in my statement Friday, he felt that the -- 20 he brought up toluene. I don't really know what toluene is. 21 I don't know. I can't remember what he told me it is, 22 cleaning fluid or -- I don't know what it is. But that's the 23 thing he always mentioned. 24 Q. Did he ever collect or get any literature or 25 documents on chemicals and that sort of thing? 27 1 A. Yeah. I mean, I don't know if -- I don't 2 remember if I seen the articles, but I think he researched it 3 at the library, and I think he was interested in what OSHA had 4 to say about it. I mean, that's what he would comment to me. 5 Q. And did he tell you that he was making claims or 6 taking some kind of action or any kind of action with regard 7 to that problem? 8 A. He talked some about it, but I don't remember 9 what all he acted. I think he had me read a little bit of the 10 articles. I don't know. He did a lot of that in private with 11 human resources and all. I don't know. 12 Q. Now, Ms. Camp, if I understand correctly, after 13 approximately Derby of 1989 he stopped talking to you about 14 his concerns about Standard Gravure and his plans, as you've 15 just told us. From that point on until September 29 -- excuse 16 me -- September 14, 1989, did you continue to see him during 17 the summer and the early fall of that year? 18 A. Yes. Because he helped me when my father passed 19 away. He was afraid of me living by myself. I lived by 20 myself. 21 Q. And did he attend your father's funeral with 22 you? 23 A. Yes. He helped out with people coming and going 24 and he tried to help me through the time my father was laid 25 out and... 28 1 Q. Did -- do you recall his grandmother, Nancy 2 Montgomery, dying? 3 A. Yes. Very much so. 4 Q. And did you attend that funeral with him? 5 A. I couldn't afford to be off from work, so, you 6 know, I offered to go and he told me, no, and he went. You 7 know, he went. I don't know all the circumstances, but I went 8 to her so much in the nursing home that I felt like I had done 9 everything I could do for her. You know, I was very close to 10 her. You know, I felt like I had done everything I could do 11 for her then. 12 Q. Ms. Camp, given those dates of your father's 13 death and his grandmother's death, you mentioned on Friday 14 that you discovered a paper or some papers about Joe 15 Wesbecker's cremation; am I recalling that correctly? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. At the time that you found those papers, had the 18 cremation already been arranged by him? 19 A. You know, Joe and I talked about, you know, 20 burials just like any married couple or couple that lived 21 together. You know, you hope you do all that before you 22 become deceased. Let me think a minute. I believe he had 23 already drawn up his funeral things prior to that. I'm pretty 24 sure he had. 25 Q. And if I understand correctly, you wanted a 29 1 change made in his -- 2 A. Yeah. For his sons. Not so much for me; I was 3 his ex-wife. But I just can't -- I'm a mother. And, you 4 know, I had just buried my father. I can't imagine not having 5 somewhere to go to where a person's buried. That's beyond me. 6 Q. Did you encourage him to do that and did he 7 agree to do that? 8 A. Yes. I went with him to Owen's. 9 Q. And you went with him? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Do you have any recollection as to approximately 12 when that was, given the date of your father's funeral? 13 A. I can't remember if it was before my father died 14 or after. Owen's would have those records, but I asked him 15 and I went with him to make sure he did it. Because I said, 16 "Joe, someday when you pass away," I said, "your two boys 17 aren't even going to have nowhere to go." I said, "They're 18 not even going to have anywhere to go, if they want to go, 19 where you're buried." 20 Q. All right. Now, let me go back, if I may, to 21 another topic. If I understand correctly, during the years 22 that you knew him he was treated by different psychiatrists 23 from time to time; am I right? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. And did you ever go and talk to any of these 30 1 psychiatrists? 2 A. Doctor Hayes never did involve me. I made that 3 comment Friday, because we just lived together I didn't 4 matter. When I pleaded for help, told Doctor Hayes he was ill 5 when we first lived together, Doctor Hayes wouldn't even come 6 to the telephone. And I always had bitterness. I don't know 7 if that doctor is still alive, but I resented that. 8 Doctor Senler was my favorite. She was the most 9 helpful. She's a woman psychiatrist. I don't know if she's 10 still in practice, but I admire her and I thank her to this 11 day. 12 Doctor Coleman I respect. I helped Joe dial the 13 phone. Nobody would take him. 14 Q. Let me interrupt you there and ask you about the 15 first contact with Doctor Coleman. Would you tell us how that 16 came about? 17 A. Joe was without a doctor. Doctor Senler stopped 18 seeing him. His medicine was running out, so I would go to 19 Walgreen's in Dixie Manor. I don't know why Doctor Senler 20 stopped seeing Joe. I don't know if Joe quit going and lied 21 to me or Doctor Senler just wanted him to get a new doctor. I 22 still don't know to this day why. So I would go to Walgreen's 23 and ask them to please refill his medicine because he couldn't 24 get in touch with her. So the pharmacist refilled it one 25 time, said "Brenda, he has to have a doctor." 31 1 So I'd go over and get on the telephone with him 2 and call. We went down through the phone book constantly and 3 doctors would say I've got a sick man on my hands. Joe don't 4 have any psychiatrist, medicines running out and I'm, like, 5 "Well, he won't go to the hospital." So we get on the phone 6 and we wrote down about, I guess, 12 psychiatrists. We 7 proceeded to call. One said, "We're not accepting new 8 patients." 9 You dial the next one, "We're not taking any new 10 patients." 11 You dial the next one, "It will be two months 12 before we have an opening." 13 This went on for about I would estimate two 14 hours, till finally we called Doctor Coleman's office and he 15 said he would see Joe. I remember I drank a Coke afterwards, 16 the relief, I said okay. So I went with Joe. I drove him 17 there on Bardstown Road and that's the only time I ever met 18 Doctor Coleman. And they talked -- I went back and met him. 19 MR. SMITH: Could we have this in a question- 20 and-answer form, please, Your Honor? 21 JUDGE POTTER: Sustained. Mr. Stopher, why 22 don't you ask a question. 23 Q. Ms. Camp, on that very first occasion, the very 24 first time you went to meet Doctor Coleman -- 25 A. Yes, sir; I just said that. 32 1 Q. -- did you go into the session with Mr. 2 Wesbecker and give information about his history? 3 A. Half of it, as I best remember it. 4 Q. After that time, did you ever see Doctor Coleman 5 again? 6 A. No, sir. 7 Q. Were you ever asked to come with Joe Wesbecker 8 to Doctor Coleman? 9 A. No, sir. 10 Q. Were you ever asked to attend an appointment 11 with him by Joe Wesbecker? 12 A. No. Joe never asked me to go. Doctor Coleman 13 never phoned me. I don't remember if they did. I don't 14 remember it. 15 Q. All right. Now, Ms. Camp, let me direct your 16 attention to the afternoon and the evening of September 13, 17 1989, the afternoon and the evening before the shootings the 18 following morning. Did you see Joe Wesbecker on the 13th of 19 September? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. And would you tell us what time of day and where 22 you saw him? 23 A. I went to work that day. He called me and asked 24 could we go to dinner together. He come over to my father's 25 home and we went to a normal restaurant and ate dinner where 33 1 we went a lot to eat dinner. I would say this was 2 approximately -- I get home from work 5:30, 6:30, I would say 3 approximately quarter till seven is about when we went to the 4 restaurant. 5 Q. All right. Now, let me see if I can use my map 6 again and get straight as to the geography of this. On that 7 day, you worked at -- 8 A. The Dixie campus. 9 Q. And that would be approximately up in this area 10 at Roy's? 11 A. Opposite side of Trent. It's beside Holy Cross 12 High School. 13 Q. All right. And then he called you at work on 14 the 13th? 15 A. It was either at work or when I first got home. 16 I don't even remember. 17 Q. All right. And you went to your home on Blevins 18 Gap Road? 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. Okay. And do you know where he was when he 21 called you? 22 A. Hunh-uh. 23 Q. And he asked you to go to dinner? 24 A. Yeah. If we could see each other and eat 25 dinner, and I told him, "Of course." 34 1 Q. Did he then come to your home? 2 A. Yeah. I had to think. 3 Q. And what vehicle was he driving? 4 A. I don't -- the Monza. Well, that would have 5 been the only car he would have had to drive. 6 Q. He didn't have another car? 7 A. Right. Or he would have had to borrow the 8 Oldsmobile from Jimmy, so he would have been driving the 9 Monza. 10 Q. And was the Oldsmobile at your house at that 11 time? 12 A. I don't think so. No. Now, wait. See, I 13 honestly don't remember. I don't think so. 14 Q. All right. He comes to your house that early 15 evening in the red Monza? 16 A. Uh-huh. 17 Q. Had you been in that red Monza recently? 18 A. Hunh-uh. Because I drove my white Firebird. I 19 don't remember the last time I was in my red car. 20 Q. Did you have any chance that night, that you 21 recall, to look in the Chevrolet Monza? 22 A. I wouldn't have no reason to. I never went 23 behind people and checked on stuff. I wouldn't have went out 24 there. I wouldn't think so. If I was suspecting something 25 you would, but... 35 1 Q. He arrives at your home and then the two of you 2 go out to dinner; am I right? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. And who drives and what do you drive? 5 A. I do and we drove my -- I would have drove my 6 car, my '82 Firebird that I still drive. 7 Q. All right. And where do you go to dinner? 8 A. Jessie's Family Restaurant. 9 Q. All right. And where is it located? 10 A. It's located right down from Valley High School. 11 It's right on Dixie Highway. 12 Q. And then during dinner that evening, is it just 13 the two of you? 14 A. Just the two of us. 15 Q. Does he give you that day any information about 16 himself, that you recall? 17 A. He talked more when we got home from dinner and 18 before we went to dinner than he did at the restaurant. 19 Q. And did he give you any information about 20 himself that evening or that -- during the meal? 21 A. He talked more about himself the week before 22 that, as far as saying how he felt, and he didn't talk as much 23 about it. I mean... 24 Q. Well, let me go back to the week before. Did he 25 give you information about how he felt at that time a week 36 1 earlier? 2 A. Let me think a minute. Before -- I would say it 3 was about a week, week and a half before he said Doctor 4 Coleman had chose to put him on a new medicine. And it 5 concerned me at first because I simply said to him, "Are you 6 sure you want to try more medicines as many, as you've been 7 on;" that's what I said to him. And he said, "Yes, I'd like 8 to try it," but I now know after all this, he was already 9 taking new medicine and he didn't tell me. He said, "I'm 10 going to go ahead and try a new medicine." And then a few 11 days passed, probably -- I don't remember -- four or five 12 days, and he says, "I feel a lot better on the new medicine." 13 And I said, "Well, I'm happy for you, Joe," and that's about 14 all we said about it. 15 Q. Did he give you any more information than that, 16 that you recall? 17 A. I mean, he may have. It may be in my 18 deposition, but as I best remember it, you know, he said, "I 19 went to see Doctor Coleman a few days ago," and that's about 20 all he said. 21 Q. That evening on the night of the 13th, the night 22 before, did he tell you at dinner how he was feeling that 23 night? 24 A. He was just more nervous. He paced more. While 25 we were eating he got up two or three times and went to the 37 1 bathroom in the middle of the meal. He didn't finish all of 2 his meal. I didn't either because he just kept doing that. I 3 finally said, "I'll just get a go box." 4 Q. Was there anything different about that pacing 5 and that situation that night than you had seen on many other 6 occasions over the years? 7 A. Hunh-uh. 8 Q. Is that a yes or a no? 9 A. In between. Maybe a little bit more but not 10 that much. 11 Q. Any difference in the way he looked that night 12 or the way he talked to you that night? 13 A. No, because he had been in that shape before, 14 so... 15 Q. You mentioned on Friday that, before that, there 16 would be times that he just simply couldn't stay in a room? 17 A. Right. 18 MR. SMITH: Objection to leading, Your Honor. 19 JUDGE POTTER: Sustained. 20 Q. On other occasions before this, would he 21 sometimes have to leave a room or want to leave a room? 22 A. Yeah. But he did that a lot, so you didn't pay 23 any attention. 24 Q. On the occasion of this dinner the night before, 25 did he have movement of his hands and his feet? 38 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And were they moving like you demonstrated for 3 us on Friday? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Was there anything different about that movement 6 than you had seen before on other occasions, many other 7 occasions? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Ms. Camp, when he got in a condition like that, 10 could he drive? 11 A. When he was with me, he'd ask me to drive. When 12 we weren't together, I don't know what he did. I don't know 13 if he drove or he didn't or what he did. 14 Q. Did you ever see him try to drive when he was in 15 that kind of condition and his hands would be moving and his 16 feet would be jumping as you demonstrated on Friday? 17 A. I mean, trying to recollect and think back, I 18 would say maybe a few times and we would just change -- I 19 would say, "I'm going to drive." I mean, I'm sure I did, but 20 it's hard to remember now. 21 Q. All right. Now, did he give you any other 22 information at dinner that night about himself or make any 23 other statements that you remember? 24 A. No. Just said -- I went to bed early. 25 Q. Now, after you left the restaurant where did you 39 1 go? 2 A. Back home. I went back to my house. 3 Q. And what occurred then? 4 A. He sat in one chair, I sat on the couch. He 5 paced. He walked around. He went outside and walked around a 6 while. He said, "Can I spend the night?" I said, "Of 7 course." I said, "I'm going to bed." So I don't know where 8 he slept. I don't know if he slept in the guest bedroom, my 9 bedroom -- I slept in the basement that night. I don't know 10 where he slept in my father's home, now my home. I went to 11 bed and didn't see him till the next morning. 12 Q. Was it unusual for you and he to sleep in 13 different bedrooms? 14 A. We did it our whole relationship. 15 Q. The whole nine years? 16 A. (Nods head affirmatively). 17 Q. Is that a yes? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. The reason I keep asking you to speak is that 20 when we are making a record and when you nod your head -- 21 A. Yes, sir. I'm sorry. 22 Q. That's all right. I understand. That evening, 23 that night, did you see him at all in the middle of the night? 24 A. No, sir. 25 Q. What occurred the next morning? 40 1 A. My alarm clock went off like normal. I come 2 upstairs to prepare to go to work. He already had his clothes 3 on because he would take Jimmy to the University of 4 Louisville. I come down the hallway and -- I always sleep 15 5 minutes longer than my alarm clock, so I got in my normal bed 6 and laid down for 15 minutes because I slept in the basement. 7 He went in the kitchen. He come back to me. It's the last 8 time I seen him alive. He come back to me, and we always 9 said, "Have a nice day." We always said thanks to each other. 10 He already had his clothes on. I'm still in my nightie shirt. 11 So he leaned up against the wall in the bedroom 12 where I now still sleep. He looked at me and he said, "Thanks 13 for being a good friend." He said, "Thanks for always taking 14 care of me." He said, "I'll call you later at work." I said 15 okay. So I got up and went into the hall bathroom to finish 16 getting ready, and he turned around. That was odd. He 17 usually -- when he said good-bye he was gone. 18 He turned around in -- my hallway's a long 19 hallway. He stood there and stared at me. I said, "Joe, 20 what's the matter?" He said, "Nothing. I just come back to 21 tell you good-bye again." I said okay, I said bye, and kissed 22 him on the cheek and he was gone. 23 Q. Did he appear to you that morning any 24 differently than he had looked? 25 A. Other than that. That was odd for him to do. 41 1 Q. Ms. Camp, after Derby weekend when he told you 2 that he wasn't going to talk to you anymore about Standard 3 Gravure and about certain things, did he ever talk to you 4 about any plans with regard to Standard Gravure after that and 5 before September 14, 1989? 6 A. When he talked to the social workers and it 7 become a reality he was on disability, I'm just kind of the 8 type of person to accept things. I couldn't see any reason to 9 talk any more about it and I thought I'd try to cheer him up 10 and make him realize that being on disability would be a 11 different way of life. So, you know, I couldn't see where 12 there was a reason to talk about it when you're never going 13 back there. And it was a hard memory for him, so I thought if 14 I didn't talk about it, it would be better. 15 Q. Did he ever tell you what the plans were or the 16 things were that if you knew them you would tell the police or 17 have him institutionalized? Did he ever tell you what those 18 plans were after Derby of 1989? 19 A. No. He just said, "I'm just not talking to you 20 because you always" -- no, I think he had the fear I'd want 21 him back in the hospital. 22 MR. STOPHER: I believe that's all, your Honor. 23 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith. 24 25 42 1 EXAMINATION ___________ 2 3 BY_MR._SMITH: __ ___ ______ 4 Q. Ms. Camp, I have noted here in connection with 5 that last dinner that you and Mr. Wesbecker had at the 6 restaurant, that he appeared to you to be more nervous, that 7 he paced more and went to the bathroom on a couple of 8 occasions while you were there at the restaurant; is that 9 correct, Ms. Camp? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. And that he wasn't -- was he not able to finish 12 his meal, either? 13 A. He ate half of his meal. 14 Q. And you, I guess, maybe and he got a to-go box 15 for the leftover food? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. I got the impression from listening to you that 18 this was more nervous than he had been in the past. 19 A. Well, more nervous than the current past, but he 20 had been like that before. 21 Q. But it had been some time since you had seen him 22 in this state; would that be accurate, Ms. Camp? 23 A. Probably the last time I had seen him like that 24 was three or four months before that occurrence. 25 Q. All right. And was it not quite as severe even 43 1 on that occasion? 2 A. Joe tried to hide it, you know. Sometimes he'd 3 get like that and he'd try to hide it because he would have 4 the jitters or whatever. 5 Q. I'll try to be brief, Ms. Camp, but I have a few 6 questions I think I need to ask you. When you and Joe first 7 met and you started dating him back around Thanksgiving 1980, 8 as I understand it, when you first met at that -- first I 9 think you-all had breakfast after the Parents Without Partners 10 meeting; is that right? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. And that you and he sat and talked at the 13 breakfast and that he told you about his children and you told 14 him about your children? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. And you were proud of yours and he was proud of 17 his at that time? 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. And Joe seemed like the type of fellow that even 20 though he was divorced was still interested in his family? 21 A. He stayed like that his whole life. 22 Q. Always his interest in his sons continued; is 23 that right? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. As I understand it, he continued to pay his 44 1 child support? 2 A. Yes, sir. And extra, plus. 3 Q. And gave them gifts and items of necessity over 4 and above the child support? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. I know that there were apparently a couple of 7 occasions when he and Ms. Sue Chesser had problems, but would 8 it be accurate to state that, generally speaking, Joe and Ms. 9 Chesser got along pretty well? 10 A. Yes, sir. I would say so. 11 Q. And I think you said either in your testimony or 12 in your deposition that you almost felt like Sue was lucky in 13 that Joe was treating her well; was that accurate? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. Did Joe tell you that he had enjoyed growing up 16 with his grandmother in his childhood? 17 A. His greatest love was his grandmother, so, yes. 18 I mean, I would say yes, he enjoyed growing up with her. 19 Q. I have a note here that you said that Joe was 20 kind from the beginning. 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. And I take it by what you've said here, Ms. 23 Camp, that even that last morning of September 14th, he was 24 kind to you? 25 A. Yes, sir. 45 1 Q. Joe enjoyed his work when he worked at Standard 2 Gravure when you first met him? 3 A. It's like the statement I made Friday, Joe 4 always had a fear of not being able to work. 5 Q. But when he -- when you met him in the '80 -- 6 1980, it was your impression that he enjoyed his work? 7 A. Oh, most definitely. 8 Q. Now, when you and Joe met, you were going 9 through a traumatic divorce from Doctor Beasley; is that 10 correct? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. And Joe was supportive of you from the outset? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. He sympathized with you and your problems? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. He knew you were having a hard time financially 17 at that time? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. In fact, your house had been foreclosed on as a 20 result of the divorce; is that correct? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. And Joe, frankly, offered to let you move into 23 his house there on Mount Holyoke? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. And he, in fact, told you that if you wanted to 46 1 move into his house and if you felt like staying there in his 2 house with him in front of your children that he would move to 3 an apartment, in fact? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. But you and he decided that you would -- that he 6 would remain there; is that correct? 7 A. Yes, sir. We decided to get married. 8 Q. But you and he discussed that -- he offered to 9 let you have the use of the house on Mount Holyoke and even 10 move to an apartment and you were uncomfortable with that? 11 A. Yes, sir. Well, my ex-husband was suing me for 12 custody of my children because I lived with a man. 13 Q. And Joe was willing to move out into an 14 apartment to help you in that regard; correct? 15 A. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. 16 Q. It sounds to me like that there were a lot of 17 positive things about Joe, there was a lot of good things 18 about Joe Wesbecker. 19 A. I mean, I'm just one person that knew him. Most 20 people that knew him would say that. 21 Q. You and others that you know have said good 22 things about Joe Wesbecker? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. He gave you, as I understand it, $1,000 there 25 shortly after you were married or before you were married to 47 1 pay to an attorney to help you with your custody battle over 2 your children; is that right? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. Did he ever ask you to pay him back that 5 thousand dollars? 6 A. I paid him back through the years but he 7 wouldn't -- I mean, we were always friends. I wouldn't have 8 cheated him out of the money. 9 Q. And he wouldn't pester you for the money, 10 either, would he? 11 A. No. No. 12 Q. He wanted to help you when he gave you the 13 $1,000? 14 A. (Nods head affirmatively). 15 Q. When you and the kids, your two children, 16 Melissa and Chris -- 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. -- when they moved in, Joe was initially 19 supportive of the two children, wasn't he? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. And did things with them and for them, 22 initially? 23 A. Yeah. We couldn't have been married if it 24 wasn't that way. 25 Q. You felt like when you got married that Joe 48 1 would be a reasonable stepfather to your children or you 2 wouldn't have married him; correct? 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. And do I understand it that Joe was especially 5 fond of Chris, your son? 6 A. In the last four years he lived. In the 7 beginning, he was more partial to my daughter; later, he was 8 able -- he did not speak -- I've already said this Friday -- 9 to my daughter the last five years he lived, so the only one 10 of my children he would remain speaking to was my son. 11 Q. And he continued to be kind to your son? 12 A. He continued to speak, yeah, speak to my son 13 till he died. 14 Q. It was my understanding that Chris, at least 15 when he was younger, had a problem with hyperactivity and Joe 16 was supportive of you and him in that? 17 A. Yes. And anyone that's ever raised a 18 hyperactive child knows. 19 Q. When you and Joe married in Indiana, the reason 20 that Joe's family wasn't there was because this was a private 21 wedding; is that right? 22 A. Yes, sir. We told only about, I don't remember, 23 about eight people that we were getting married. 24 Q. Do I understand it that you said that you-all 25 didn't really take traditional vows in this marriage? 49 1 A. I've not said normal traditional vows since the 2 end of my first marriage. I cannot say -- 3 Q. All right. And how, Ms. Camp, were the vows 4 different that you took with Joe Wesbecker versus those vows 5 you took with Doctor Beasley? 6 A. Doctor Beasley and I married under the Roman 7 Catholic faith, had two children. In respect to that marriage 8 and being a Roman Catholic, I can't say traditional wedding 9 vows. That's more me than anyone else. Even at other 10 people's weddings, sometimes I have a hard time sitting 11 through traditional vows. In sickness and health, for richer 12 for poorer, till death do you part, how could I say? I didn't 13 say them in my third marriage; we wrote our wedding vows. 14 Q. After you were married, as I understand it, 15 there was a prenuptial agreement? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. And that prenuptial agreement was mutual on each 18 of your parts; is that correct? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. You wanted the prenuptial agreement as much as 21 Joe did? 22 A. Yes. Probably more so. 23 Q. And Joe agreed to this? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. After you were married you-all never mixed your 50 1 money; correct? 2 A. Correct. 3 Q. Except, as I understand it, Joe was generous 4 with you in giving you gifts for Christmas, Valentine's Day 5 and things of that nature? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. And that if there were occasions when you needed 8 grocery money or something like that until the next paycheck, 9 Joe would certainly chip in on those occasions? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. And were there occasions when you and he went 12 shopping and bought household goods together? 13 A. I didn't need household goods because I brought 14 all of mine out of my first marriage. 15 Q. I mean household goods, grocery items. 16 A. Most of the time I went to the grocery. Like 17 most women, I did the grocery shopping. 18 Q. All right. During your marriage, Joe had an 19 obligation to pay child support, did he not? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. And did he continue to pay that child support? 22 A. He always paid it. 23 Q. And during your marriage there were problems 24 with Joe and Doctor Beasley but, one of Joe's main, if not 25 exclusive, criticisms of Doctor Beasley was the way he had 51 1 treated you and his children, that is, yours and Doctor 2 Beasley's children, was it not? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. Joe's irritation with Doctor Beasley stemmed 5 from the fact that he felt fondness and kindness, love toward 6 you, and fondness and kindness toward your children? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. In connection with Jimmy and Kevin, Ms. Camp, 9 would it be correct to say that Joe's problem with Kevin was 10 that Kevin had dropped out of school and that he wouldn't have 11 this surgery that Joe felt like would help his disability? 12 A. Are you -- what are you asking me; is that why 13 he no longer had communication with his son? 14 Q. That was the reason that they quit communicating 15 and that they had periods where they wouldn't speak to each 16 other? 17 A. Along with Joe did not like Kevin not watching 18 Jimmy when he was smaller. 19 Q. Those -- did Joe ever express to you that Joe 20 didn't like Kevin's girlfriend, the woman he later married? 21 A. Yes, sir. He did not have a real good 22 relationship with Kevin's wife. 23 Q. Did you talk with Kevin about this estrangement 24 between them? 25 A. I can't remember when Kevin got married. I 52 1 don't remember which year. I was only married to Joe for 2 three years, and sometimes in a blended or extended family, 3 you're better to say nothing, I've learned that. So a lot of 4 times with me not being their mother, it wouldn't have 5 mattered what I said. I've learned that when you get out of 6 your nuclear family when you learn -- you go through a divorce 7 sometimes you learn as a stepparent or an ex to just be quiet. 8 I've learned that. 9 Q. Well, Kevin has testified that Kevin himself 10 was -- 11 MR. STOPHER: I object to the characterization 12 of some other witness's testimony, Your Honor. 13 JUDGE POTTER: Overruled. 14 Q. Has testified that -- here in this trial -- that 15 he was stubborn, also; that is, Kevin was stubborn, and that 16 part of this estrangement was a result of both Kevin and Joe 17 being stubborn. My question is: Did you see any stubbornness 18 on Kevin's part? 19 A. I made the statement Friday that Kevin was my 20 favorite child of Joe's. I don't think Kevin Wesbecker would 21 have ever been that way, ever, if his -- I think the parent 22 should be the one in charge if you have children, meaning, you 23 set the example for your children. So I don't think Kevin 24 would have ever -- I never seen a mean bone in his body. 25 Q. I understand that. My point simply was Kevin 53 1 acknowledged that there were some things about their 2 disintegration of their relationship that he felt like he was 3 partly to blame; you never talked to him about that? 4 A. I don't blame Kevin. Like I said, I was in the 5 extended family. I didn't matter. 6 Q. All right. Now, did you know that in May or 7 June 1989, Kevin and Joe started seeing each other again? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. And that they met at a restaurant and maybe met 10 Father's Day? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. I assume you were happy to see that? 13 A. Yes. Most definitely. 14 Q. Did Joe seem to be relieved or happy about that 15 to some extent, Ms. Camp? 16 A. He was happy and then he just didn't care, 17 either. So many years had went by that he was in between with 18 it. I think he did it more for Kevin than he did it for 19 himself. 20 Q. Kevin has testified that they had planned to get 21 closer. 22 A. I would hope so. It shouldn't have happened. 23 Q. I assume that's something that you would have 24 supported? 25 A. Most definitely. 54 1 Q. In connection with Jimmy's problems, would it be 2 accurate to say, Ms. Camp, that Joe did everything that a 3 father could do to help Jimmy with his problem with exposure? 4 A. If you give a thousand percentage, I would say 5 so. Yes, sir. Tremendous amount. 6 Q. Took him to hospitals? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. Paid for psychiatrists? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Worried about him? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Counseled with him? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Went to counseling with him? 15 A. We all did. 16 Q. Went to visit him in jail? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Got calls from Sue concerning problems when 19 Jimmy would be picked up and taken to jail? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. Actually, Joe brought Jimmy to live with you-all 22 for a while, did he not? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. Before you were divorced? 25 A. Yes, sir. 55 1 Q. And, frankly, Joe's concern about Jimmy and 2 Jimmy's problem was one of the problems that you and Joe had 3 in your marriage? 4 A. Yes, sir. Because I had a small son at the 5 time. 6 Q. And a daughter, also? 7 A. And a what? 8 Q. And a daughter. You had a son and a daughter? 9 A. But I went in therapy to find out which one was 10 at greatest risk regarding Jimmy. And Doctor Epstein told me 11 it would be my male son; male offspring was at greater risk. 12 Q. Did you and Joe talk about whether or not it 13 would be advisable to bring Jimmy into the household? 14 A. Joe had been good to my children to where in the 15 extended family I didn't feel I had a right to tell him if my 16 children were welcome his children weren't welcome. So I 17 agreed to let him bring his son and live with us. 18 Q. But that caused problems between the two of you? 19 A. Anything like that would cause any family 20 problems. 21 Q. The fact is, though, Joe was willing to even 22 risk that to help Jimmy? 23 A. But if anyone understands the extended family, 24 these are my kids and those are yours to a degree. My dad 25 always said blood is thicker than water, so blood always goes 56 1 back home, or it should. 2 Q. When you divorced in November of 1984, I believe 3 you said it was because you saw that things were deteriorating 4 and that you felt like it would be better to end the divorce 5 so you and Joe could remain friends? 6 A. Yes, sir. I did it for lots of reasons. 7 Q. You weren't going to let the same thing happen 8 between you and Joe as happened between you and Doctor 9 Beasley? 10 A. Correct. 11 Q. And it didn't? 12 A. It didn't. 13 Q. Joe agreed to the divorce? 14 A. We went together that day. Yeah. I mean, we 15 went together as we got it. 16 Q. The divorce went smoothly? 17 A. Of course. 18 Q. He didn't fight you over the divorce, -- 19 A. Hunh-uh. 20 Q. -- did he? 21 A. No. I mean, we used his attorney. 22 Q. He didn't make unreasonable demands for 23 property? 24 A. We never mixed property, so there was nothing to 25 fight over. 57 1 Q. You had that straightened out with your 2 prenuptial agreement anyway? 3 A. We had no children and no property mixed, so 4 there was nothing to fight over. 5 Q. In connection with the problems with Doctor 6 Beasley, I think as you said earlier, the main problem between 7 Joe and Doctor Beasley was that Joe didn't like the way Doctor 8 Beasley treated you and your children; is that right? 9 A. Yeah. I guess you could sum it up like that. 10 Q. In fact, hadn't Doctor Beasley expressed that he 11 felt like he was better than Joe because Joe was a blue-collar 12 worker and because Joe lived in the south end? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. Did Joe know about those feelings that Doctor 15 Beasley had expressed about him? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. How did he know that? 18 A. I mean, I can only talk hearsay. When Joe and I 19 first met, Joe felt that my ex-husband put a private 20 investigator on him to follow him. I'm only -- this is 21 secondhand comments I have heard. When Joe and I first 22 married, I was told by my family he had put death threats on 23 Joe and I. 24 Q. Doctor Beasley had put out death threats on you 25 and Joe? 58 1 A. On us. 2 Q. My question is, though, how did Joe know that 3 Doctor Beasley was saying these things about him being a 4 blue-collar worker and about him living in the south end? 5 A. Because people come up and told Joe. 6 Q. All right. Actually, though, Joe and Doctor 7 Beasley only talked about four times during the entire 8 nine-year relationship? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. And on those four occasions Joe never threatened 11 Doctor Beasley, did he? 12 A. No, sir. 13 Q. And Joe never, ever physically went to Doctor 14 Beasley's office and waited for him with a gun to blow his 15 brains out, as far as you know, did he, Ms. Camp? 16 A. No. He just verbally would say that to me. 17 Q. And that was on one occasion; is that right? 18 A. He threatened to kill him two times. 19 Q. Two times. But he never followed through on 20 those threats? 21 A. No. He's still living. 22 Q. Did Joe and Doctor Beasley even have cross words 23 on those four occasions that they talked? 24 A. My ex-husband never acknowledged him, never 25 thanked him, never thanked him for everything he did. My 59 1 ex-husband does not -- never did want to even act like he 2 existed, ever. 3 Q. But Joe continued to do nice things for you and 4 your children? 5 A. He did all the way till he died that morning and 6 until he did... 7 Q. These comments that you mentioned Friday at the 8 stop sign about Joe had some fixation on stoplights or stop 9 signs, and you said he would make threats about people at stop 10 signs; is that right? 11 A. I mean, I can only talk from what happened to 12 me. 13 Q. And that's all I'm asking you about is those 14 occasions where you and he would be together and he would make 15 some type of threat or disparaging remark. 16 A. I wasn't always with him. The time he 17 threatened to kill my daughter, I testified Friday, was at the 18 stoplight on Bardstown Road. 19 Q. All right. But I thought you said that there 20 were other occasions when Joe would threaten just strangers at 21 stoplights. 22 A. No. I don't think I said he would threaten 23 strangers. 24 Q. Maybe I misunderstood you. 25 A. No. The incident of my daughter, we were at a 60 1 stoplight. The incident with my ex-husband, he said it would 2 be very easy to just stop him, roll down his window and blow 3 his brains out; we were at a stoplight when he said that. And 4 one time when he threatened me -- maybe it's because the car 5 stopped and it's a convenient time to get out. I don't know 6 why he would say it at stoplights. 7 Q. Maybe I misunderstood you, Ms. Camp. I thought 8 you said Friday that he had issued other threats against other 9 individuals while he was at stop signs; you may not. 10 A. I apologize. He only threatened me, my daughter 11 and my ex-husband as far as a death threat that I'm ever aware 12 of. I don't know about anybody else. 13 Q. All right. 14 A. Okay. 15 Q. Sometimes I say things about drivers of other 16 automobiles that my wife fusses with me about, but you didn't 17 mean those? 18 A. I don't think I said it Friday, but I don't 19 always... 20 Q. All right. Am I correct that there was only one 21 occasion where you heard Joe talk about any aggressive comment 22 against Standard Gravure and that was the occasion where he 23 talked about taking dynamite to the plant maybe in 1984? 24 A. Joe mentioned dynamite in the end. It was like 25 I said Friday, it was either '87 or '88. I mean, it's hard to 61 1 remember all these dates. It was like -- I would guess a year 2 and a half or two years prior to September the 14th. 3 Q. All right. I thought this occasion where there 4 was statements about dynamite was when you and he were still 5 married; am I incorrect? 6 A. No. He was happy at work and we were happily 7 married the first three or four years we were together till we 8 divorced. We were together four years before we divorced; one 9 of living together and three years of marriage. 10 Q. And there was only that one occasion where he 11 spoke about violence at Standard Gravure? 12 A. Yeah. I mean, other than I testified Friday, he 13 would come home extremely upset with men he would work with 14 and he would be upset with the foremans. 15 Q. But as far as doing anything against Standard 16 Gravure or any individual there, we only had one occasion 17 where that was a possibility and that was the dynamite? 18 A. That I'm aware of, you know. 19 MR. SMITH: All right. Do you want me to 20 complete, Your Honor? 21 JUDGE POTTER: No. Go ahead and finish up, Mr. 22 Smith. We had a little late start today. 23 Q. In connection with the house on Nottoway Circle, 24 as I understand it, you moved back in in 1985? 25 A. Yes, sir. 62 1 Q. And you continued to live there continuously 2 until November 1988? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. During that period of time, you asked Joe to 5 sell that house and give you a -- did you say cash settlement? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. What was the cash settlement going to be for? 8 A. For everything I had done with paying phone 9 bills. And if anyone lives with someone, you know, it takes 10 two to run a household. So I wanted a cash settlement and us 11 separate and never live together again. 12 Q. How had you-all been running the household after 13 you started living together again? 14 A. He owned the home and I paid everything else, 15 most of the time the phone bill, most of the time the water 16 bill, the garbage bill, the food, cut the grass. I did all of 17 that. 18 Q. He provided the house so you didn't have rent to 19 pay? 20 A. Right. I didn't have rent to pay, so I had to 21 pay all the other stuff, just like at Mount Holyoke. 22 Q. Did you agree to do this? Was this something 23 you were willing to do when you did it? 24 A. Yes, sir. I felt that was fair. 25 Q. This wasn't something that Joe insisted? 63 1 A. No. I always pay my way. 2 Q. And what you wanted was when you decided to move 3 out, you wanted to be repaid for that period of time that you 4 had paid bills there? 5 A. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. 6 Q. And what Joe did was, in fact, not sell the 7 house which was worth, what, $80,000? 8 A. Fair value in here was $58,000. 9 Q. Fifty-eight. Instead of selling the house and 10 giving you $15,000, what he actually did was transferred the 11 entire house to you? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. And was that acceptable with you? 14 A. I argued with him at first. My attorney told 15 him he had made an unfair decision, that technically I owned 16 that home. And his attorney asked him to wait awhile before 17 he made a decision like that because he said, "I want you to 18 realize what you're doing, that technically now she owns this 19 home and that any moment any day she could put you out of 20 here." 21 Q. He wasn't worried about that and you weren't 22 worried about that, were you? 23 A. I would have never done that. Yes. I never 24 knew I was moving back to live with my father, so... 25 Q. I understand that, but the lawyer said to Joe, 64 1 "Joe, you don't have to give her the entire house"? 2 A. That's correct. No one would have to. 3 Q. "Think about that." But he gave it to you 4 anyway? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. When did the deed -- I think we've got it in 7 evidence -- approximately when was that? 8 A. I don't know. I'd have to look it up. I can't 9 remember the exact date. Do you want me to take time to look 10 it up? I guess it's still here from Friday. 11 Q. What part of '88 was that? 12 A. I don't remember. 13 Q. Was it before you moved out in November of '88? 14 A. It would have had to have been. Hang on. I'm 15 pretty sure because he brought it home and showed me at that 16 house. 17 Q. September 27th, 1988, does that sound right? 18 A. Have you got it? 19 Q. I've got some help here. 20 A. Okay. When was it? 21 Q. September 27th, '88. 22 A. Okay. So September, October, November, it would 23 have been two months before I moved out. 24 Q. And was Joe wanting -- when you moved out in 25 November of 1988, was he wanting you to stay or did he 65 1 understand that you needed to go help with your father? 2 A. It caused arguments. He said he was leaving me 3 for good if I did not come back home. I told him I had made 4 my decision. He said, "Well, if your dad gets well and 5 remarries, then you're not moving back in." I said, "I don't 6 intend" -- you know, I said it would be better that we just 7 date and not live together anymore, so I didn't intend -- I 8 mean, that's sometimes why we did not sleep in the same 9 bedroom. He was nice, but he didn't like me living with my 10 father or taking care of an aging parent. He thought he -- 11 partially -- should go in a nursing home, and I told Joe, 12 "He's not going in a nursing home." 13 Q. But after you moved out, as I understand it, 14 from November of 1988 until your father passed away in July of 15 1989, Joe continued to come out on a regular basis to Blevins 16 Gap? 17 A. He'd come to help me out and check on me. 18 Q. He would help you with your invalid father? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. Apparently he was friendly with your invalid 21 father? 22 A. My dad and him liked each other. 23 Q. Your father had needs for personal assistance to 24 take care of himself? 25 A. We had a lady help and I would help and my 66 1 daughter would help and her boyfriend would help, all of us. 2 Q. And Joe would help? 3 A. Joe would help out. 4 Q. I'm still a little confused about this period of 5 time when the house was messy when Joe -- on Nottoway Circle 6 when Joe was there. Was this after your father had passed 7 away that you found the house in this shape? 8 A. I mean, everybody keeps talking about messy. 9 Most of the time I went over there at night. On even the 10 morning of September the 14th, the house, unless something 11 major happened to it -- I was there three nights before 12 Standard Gravure of September the 14th. That was the last 13 time I was in the house before that morning. I went three 14 nights before, I'm pretty sure it was three nights before. 15 The living room was not a mess, the kitchen. I don't know 16 where everybody keeps saying it's in a horrible mess. 17 Q. I don't, either. That's why I was asking. 18 A. Granted, I'm not going to houseclean there every 19 week and there was no running water, but you didn't -- I 20 wouldn't -- I don't -- granted, it might have been dusty and 21 Joe kept the drapes pulled, but I imagine that house was a lot 22 cleaner than most people's houses are weekly. You know, I 23 mean, I don't know because I went in when it was dark and 24 there was no lights on, there was no LG&E, but I didn't trip 25 over things. My visualization of messy is roaches and dishes 67 1 you haven't done for a week, and I've never lived in those 2 kind of environment, so I don't know. 3 Q. What about these occasions when there would be 4 urine in a can and things of that nature, did you ever 5 actually see that? 6 A. Anybody that's raised children know they throw 7 up and get diarrhea and stuff, too. Yeah. I'd walk in and 8 there was a can there where he'd urinate. 9 Q. When was that? 10 A. I went there three nights before Standard 11 Gravure to check on him, so it was three nights prior. But 12 I'm in the dark because there's no LG&E and there's no water. 13 But horrible -- I mean, I don't know what, quote, I mean, I 14 cleaned the house when it went up for sale two weeks later. I 15 spent maybe four or five hours cleaning so I don't... 16 Q. And didn't you remain at that house that three 17 nights before Standard Gravure? 18 A. No. I went and visited for about two hours and 19 went home. Joe made me go home. He didn't want me around 20 him. Either somebody's testified something that's not 21 correct, but I stayed about two hours and went home. 22 Q. Did you-all have intercourse there during that 23 two-hour period of time? 24 A. That's the last -- now, let me think. I don't 25 remember the last time. It was either five days before 68 1 Standard Gravure or three days. I don't remember the exact -- 2 it was either five days before Standard Gravure or three days, 3 but I went I think twice before that morning. 4 Q. You indicated in Volume Two of your deposition 5 on Page 492, that you last had intercourse with Mr. Wesbecker 6 in the house on Nottoway three nights prior to his death. 7 Would that be accurate? 8 A. Okay. Then it was three days. Yeah. It's hard 9 to remember. 10 Q. Did it smell bad at that time, the house? 11 A. Like I said, if it had been -- that house had 12 three bedrooms in it, so, no, other than having a can with 13 urine in it. I mean, that doesn't smell pleasant, but other 14 than that, and the bed sheets probably hadn't been changed for 15 I don't know how long because I wasn't living there. 16 Q. We have introduced into evidence Mr. Wesbecker's 17 wills and you are a beneficiary of each of those wills to some 18 extent, are you not? 19 A. The last one I've never seen nor read nor have I 20 even read it here. The first one I'm aware of; the second I 21 am not. I would have to take time to read it right now. 22 Q. Were you aware that you were a beneficiary in 23 both of those wills? 24 A. I was in the first one. I didn't ever know the 25 second one was drawn up that much. I didn't pay any 69 1 attention. We weren't married, so... 2 Q. This prearrangement of Mr. Wesbecker's funeral, 3 was that done as part of financial planning on each of your 4 parts? 5 A. When Sue and Joe were still married, they had 6 crypts in Louisville Memorial Gardens. Joe give those to me 7 long before all this happened. I don't remember the exact 8 date -- I have it at home -- because I want to be buried where 9 my parents are buried. So he give them to me as a gift. So I 10 always worried more about prearranged because I wanted to make 11 sure I would be buried where my parents are buried. So I 12 don't, you know, I'll do prearranged, so I don't totally 13 understand the question. 14 Q. Well, some people buy their funeral plots and 15 arrange for their funeral themselves in advance so that they 16 can nail down the costs of those services. 17 A. Joe already had owned Louisville Memorial and 18 Sue Wesbecker, now Chesser, had signed those over to him. 19 Q. So this was something that he had had for years? 20 A. But he had already given them to me as a gift, 21 so he no longer owned the two crypts in Louisville Memorial, 22 I owned them. 23 Q. My question is, did you and Joe discuss the fact 24 that these prearrangements that you found where he was going 25 to have his body entirely cremated with no remains -- 70 1 A. I didn't go with him on that. 2 Q. But did you understand that that was part of 3 financial planning on Joe's part? 4 A. I wasn't worried about it. We didn't mix money 5 and I didn't worry about that. 6 Q. All right. Your father died on July the 14th, 7 1989, and Joe went to your father's funeral with you? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. And then did you and he go on a vacation 10 together? 11 A. Right after my father died? 12 Q. Well, in July of 1989. 13 A. No. We went the weekend of the 4th of July and 14 my daughter and her boyfriend watched my father. I just did 15 get home. We went -- what's the holiday, 4th of July we went 16 to Gatlinburg, and my daughter and her boyfriend watched my 17 father so I could get away for a few days. 18 Q. So on July 4th, 1989, you and Joe Wesbecker went 19 on a vacation to Gatlinburg, Tennessee? 20 A. For three days. 21 Q. And everything was fine on that trip? 22 A. When you say fine, I was exhausted. I asked him 23 to do it for me because I don't like to travel by myself. My 24 father pleaded with me to go. Anybody that's ever took care 25 of an aging parent 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, it's 71 1 wonderful and you're always glad you did it, but it's the same 2 as taking care of a -- somebody that needs you that you love a 3 lot. So that was my request that he go, and he did it for me. 4 Q. Joe did that for you? 5 A. I didn't want to be on the road by myself and I 6 needed to get away. 7 Q. And he accommodated you to do that? 8 A. (Nods head affirmatively). 9 Q. Did he try to be supportive of you and cheer you 10 up during that period of time? 11 A. It was a quieter time. There was no cheering 12 up. My father was real ill. He was real ill. My mother was 13 real ill. I don't think you can call cheer it up. 14 Q. Well, maybe not cheering up. I mean, trying to 15 be supportive. 16 A. It's called getting away to keep your sanity and 17 just getting away for a few days. 18 Q. As I understand it, Joe Wesbecker never hit you; 19 is that right? 20 A. Correct. 21 Q. Never committed any act of violence against you? 22 A. No, sir. 23 Q. Never committed any act of violence against 24 Michelle? 25 A. Who's Michelle? 72 1 Q. Your daughter. 2 A. My daughter's name is Melissa Marie. 3 Q. I'm sorry. Melissa. 4 A. No. He never hit anyone, no. 5 Q. You wouldn't have described Joe at any time as a 6 violent person, would you? 7 A. I don't know if you can say verbal abuse is as 8 bad as physical abuse. They still study that in society. So 9 if you say physical abuse, no, not till the morning of 10 September the 14th. 11 Q. Obviously. Now -- 12 MR. STOPHER: Can she finish her answer, Your 13 Honor? 14 JUDGE POTTER: Have you finished your answer, 15 ma'am? 16 THE WITNESS: Yes. 17 Q. I didn't mean to cut you off, Ms. Camp. I was 18 looking down. 19 A. Okay. 20 Q. You mentioned Social Security payments in 21 connection with Joe. He was on Social Security? 22 A. He had qualified for disability. 23 Q. And was he getting Social Security payments, as 24 far as you knew, in addition to his disability payments? 25 A. I don't know if he got disability. The social 73 1 worker -- I had to go through that with him with talking with 2 him -- the lady in charge of him at Social Security and he had 3 just started receiving disability through Social Security, but 4 I don't know beyond that what he got. 5 Q. Do you mean he started receiving that in the 6 summer of '89? 7 A. I don't know his exact check. I don't know when 8 he got his first one. 9 Q. I understand that. But you were aware that he 10 was getting checks from the Social Security Administration? 11 A. I went through all that. I had to talk to 12 numerous people at the board. I had to explain his behavior. 13 I went through all that prior to him ever getting it. 14 Q. Joe always took his medications as he was 15 instructed, did he not? 16 A. Most definitely. 17 Q. Thank you, Ms. Camp. 18 A. You're welcome. 19 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher? 20 MR. STOPHER: I just have a couple questions, 21 Your Honor. 22 JUDGE POTTER: Very short. 23 MR. STOPHER: Absolutely. 24 25 74 1 FURTHER_EXAMINATION _______ ___________ 2 3 BY_MR._STOPHER: __ ___ ________ 4 Q. Ms. Camp, just a couple things to hopefully keep 5 this very short. In the house at 7300 Nottoway, there was 6 furniture? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. Would you tell us whose furniture that was? 9 A. Everything in the house other than one bedroom 10 suite and one TV set was mine from my previous marriage. 11 Q. Everything else, the kitchen, the dining room, 12 the living room, the other bedroom furniture, lamps, rugs, 13 everything was yours? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. Ms. Camp, did you ever know Joe Wesbecker to 16 ever subscribe to Time Magazine and particularly in the period 17 of 1988 or 1989? 18 A. No, sir. 19 Q. Thank you. That's all I have. 20 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much, ma'am. You 21 may step down; you're excused. 22 Ladies and gentlemen, we're going to take the 23 morning recess. As I've mentioned to you-all before, do not 24 talk about this case with anyone; do not discuss it with each 25 other, and do not form or express opinions about it. We'll 75 1 take a 15-minute recess. 2 (RECESS; BENCH DISCUSSION) 3 MR. SMITH: There appears to be a plain-clothes, 4 off-duty police guard from Mr. Stopher's office and, to my 5 understanding, other witnesses are appearing with police 6 guards. Is there some security problem that we don't know 7 about that we need to be aware of? We're a little concerned 8 that these witnesses are all appearing with police guards in 9 front of the jury. 10 MR. STOPHER: It shouldn't be in front of the 11 jury. 12 JUDGE POTTER: I hadn't noticed anything but the 13 police person in uniform that they're stopping outside the 14 courtroom. 15 MR. SMITH: No. They're coming inside. 16 MR. STOPHER: It was during the breaks. 17 MR. SMITH: If there's some additional security 18 problems, I think we all need to be made aware of them. 19 JUDGE POTTER: Is there anything we need to be 20 made aware of, Mr. Stopher? 21 MR. STOPHER: No, sir, other than what I saw the 22 other day in the courtroom about Doctor Coleman's effects. 23 There's an awful lot of proximity. There's no witness room 24 where I can put these people, so I'm doing the best I can. 25 Some of these people have expressed -- well, they're former