1 1 NO. 90-CI-06033 JEFFERSON CIRCUIT COURT DIVISION ONE 2 3 4 JOYCE FENTRESS, et al PLAINTIFFS 5 6 VS TRANSCRIPT_OF_THE_PROCEEDINGS __________ __ ___ ___________ 7 8 9 SHEA COMMUNICATIONS, et al DEFENDANTS 10 11 * * * 12 13 14 TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 1, 1994 15 VOLUME XXVII 16 17 * * * 18 19 20 21 _____________________________________________________________ REPORTER: JULIA K. McBRIDE 22 Coulter, Shay, McBride & Rice 1221 Starks Building 23 455 South Fourth Avenue Louisville, Kentucky 40202 24 (502) 582-1627 FAX: (502) 587-6299 25 2 1 I_N_D_E_X _ _ _ _ _ 2 Hearing on Deposition Objections......................... 4 3 WITNESS: WILLIAM_B._HELM _______ _______ __ ____ 4 By Mr. Stopher........................................... 27 By Mr. Smith............................................. 55 5 By Mr. Stopher........................................... 69 By Mr. Smith............................................. 70 6 WITNESS:__DANNY_PHILLIP_SENTERS ________ _____ _______ _______ 7 By Mr. Stopher........................................... 72 8 By Mr. Smith............................................. 90 By Mr. Stopher........................................... 92 9 WITNESS: RODGER_COFFEY _______ ______ ______ 10 By Mr. Stopher........................................... 94 11 By Ms. Zettler...........................................112 12 WITNESS: GEORGE_McMILLIN _______ ______ ________ 13 By Mr. Stopher...........................................119 By Ms. Zettler...........................................130 14 Hearing in Chambers..................................137/143 15 WITNESS: DONALD_COX _______ ______ ___ 16 By Mr. Stopher...........................................148 17 By Mr. Smith.............................................204 18 WITNESS: DANNY_WEST _______ _____ ____ 19 By Mr. Stopher...........................................221 By Ms. Zettler...........................................227 20 By Mr. Stopher...........................................230 21 WITNESS: MARGARET_COLLEEN_KANNAPEL (By Deposition) _______ ________ _______ ________ 22 By Mr. Stopher...........................................231 23 Reporter's Certificate...................................254 24 * * * 25 3 1 2 A_P_P_E_A_R_A_N_C_E_S _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 3 4 FOR THE PLAINTIFFS: 5 PAUL L. SMITH Suite 745 6 Campbell Center II 8150 North Central Expressway 7 Dallas, Texas 75206 8 NANCY ZETTLER 1405 West Norwell Lane 9 Schaumburg, Illinois 60193 10 IRVIN D. FOLEY Rubin, Hays & Foley 11 300 South, First Trust Centre Louisville, Kentucky 40202 12 13 FOR THE DEFENDANT: 14 EDWARD H. STOPHER Boehl, Stopher & Graves 15 2300 Providian Center Louisville, Kentucky 40202 16 JOE C. FREEMAN, JR. 17 LAWRENCE J. MYERS Freeman & Hawkins 18 4000 One Peachtree Center 303 Peachtree Street, N.E. 19 Atlanta, Georgia 30308 20 * * * 21 22 23 24 25 4 1 The Transcript of the Proceedings, taken before 2 The Honorable John Potter in the Multipurpose Courtroom, Old 3 Jail Office Building, Louisville, Kentucky, commencing on 4 Tuesday, November 1, 1994, at approximately 8:10 A.M., said 5 proceedings occurred as follows: 6 7 * * * 8 9 (HEARING IN CHAMBERS) 10 JUDGE POTTER: Who have we got, depositions? 11 MS. ZETTLER: I suppose before we get into 12 the -- these individual ones, Defendants have designated pages 13 from the depositions of James Croft and Mary McCarty who are 14 both here in Louisville. 15 MR. STOPHER: Judge, Mary McCarty is dead. I 16 think that ought to be an excuse. 17 JUDGE POTTER: She's still here. 18 MR. STOPHER: Mr. Croft has sent me a doctor's 19 excuse, Judge. My recollection is that its heart -- I think 20 he's had bypass surgery and he's in pretty bad shape. 21 JUDGE POTTER: Are you planning to read him 22 today? 23 MR. STOPHER: No, sir. 24 JUDGE POTTER: Why don't you get the letter so 25 we can all look at it and -- we can all look at it. 5 1 MS. ZETTLER: And when did Ms. McCarty die? 2 MR. STOPHER: I don't know. 3 MS. ZETTLER: I'd like to see some sort of proof 4 of that, frankly. 5 JUDGE POTTER: That's fair. That's the way the 6 record should be. 7 MR. STOPHER: Here's what Mr. Croft sent. 8 JUDGE POTTER: (Reviews document) I think you 9 better get him in here, or else tell him he called him and the 10 doctor sent the wrong letter. Let the record reflect that we 11 got a letter from the doctor that it would not be good for 12 Mr. Croft to serve on jury duty. So he called his doctor and 13 he said "Doc, I don't want to go down there," and the doc said 14 fine and he sent out the wrong thing, so... Does anybody have 15 any idea how old he is or anything like that? 16 MS. ZETTLER: Sixty something, or fifty 17 something. 18 MR. STOPHER: I don't think it's an 19 exaggeration. 20 JUDGE POTTER: The doctor may need to get him a 21 real letter. 22 MR. STOPHER: I would prefer that he be here, to 23 be perfectly honestly with you. 24 MS. ZETTLER: He was able to sit through a 25 day-long deposition in August of 1993. 6 1 MR. STOPHER: I didn't take any day-long 2 depositions of pressmen. 3 JUDGE POTTER: You need to call him or call the 4 doctor and say, "Doctor, that letter doesn't address what's in 5 issue here." 6 MS. ZETTLER: Frankly, Judge, I'd like an 7 affidavit setting out in detail what his condition is. 8 MR. STOPHER: Judge, I can't get an affidavit 9 from a doctor. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Tell Mr. Croft unless he gets it 11 he'll be down here and Mr. Croft will get you what you need. 12 My experience with jury duty, those doctors sign them for jury 13 duty without giving them as much thought as they should. 14 MR. STOPHER: As I say, I prefer that he be 15 here, but this is Doctor Coomer. 16 JUDGE POTTER: Who is he? 17 MR. STOPHER: He's a heart specialist, and I 18 doubt very seriously he's going to do an affidavit. 19 JUDGE POTTER: It may be a letter with his 20 discharge summary. I don't know anything about the guy's 21 condition. 22 MR. STOPHER: I don't, either, to be perfectly 23 honest with you. It occurred after his deposition, which was 24 relatively short. It's important to me. I prefer that he be 25 here. 7 1 JUDGE POTTER: Tell him he's got to be here 2 unless he comes out with something other than a jury letter. 3 MS. ZETTLER: Since they're reading these in, I 4 suppose you should mark on their depositions. 5 MR. MYERS: I'd rather make my markings on my 6 notes and then give them back to the person that's going to 7 read them. 8 JUDGE POTTER: Let me have one that I can be 9 looking at while we're doing it. Who have we got here? 10 MS. ZETTLER: Martha Wesbecker's sister, Joseph 11 Wesbecker's aunt. 12 JUDGE POTTER: And you plan to read the yellow; 13 is that what it is? 14 MR. MYERS: Yes, sir. 15 JUDGE POTTER: And have you got a list of your 16 objections? 17 MS. ZETTLER: Yes. (Hands document to Judge 18 Potter). 19 JUDGE POTTER: Have you gone over hers? 20 MR. MYERS: Yes, sir. 21 JUDGE POTTER: Have you got any you're willing 22 to do give-mes on? 23 MR. MYERS: The first two. So we're talking 24 about Page 17 -- Page 16, Line 9 through 13; and Page 17, 25 Lines 13 through 18. 8 1 JUDGE POTTER: And the first one we start with 2 is Line 17? 3 MR. MYERS: Yes, sir. And if I could make a 4 comment, because it covers the next -- nine of the next ten 5 objections. There are a number of objections here: leading, 6 speculative, nonresponsive. These are I believe form 7 objections which should have been made at the time of the 8 deposition so they could have been cured. And you may 9 remember when we did our employees, there were a number of 10 false starts; Ms. Zettler and Mr. Smith changed the question 11 and the thing resolved itself. But here there were no form 12 objections made under the rules, so I think these either have 13 to be made at the time or they're waived. And a great number 14 of the -- just to be practical -- a great number of the 15 objections in -- for these four depositions that have been 16 served are of that nature and the plaintiffs were represented 17 at these depositions by Mr. Foley and Mr. Dobiesz and Mr. 18 Hargadon at one time or another. 19 MS. ZETTLER: Your Honor, I think in the 20 majority of these you'll see that there is a running objection 21 somewhere in the beginning of the deposition. 22 JUDGE POTTER: You need to point that out for 23 me, then. Mr. Kannapel is no speller. He says you spell it 24 Kannapel just like a can of apples, that's the spelling, only 25 he spells it different. 9 1 MR. STOPHER: She actually pronounces it 2 Kannapel. 3 JUDGE POTTER: But then she says that's the 4 spelling. 5 MR. STOPHER: I'd forgotten that. 6 MS. ZETTLER: While I'm looking for this, Your 7 Honor, I'd like to point out that very similar objections were 8 made throughout the deposition where there was no formal 9 objection made within the text of the deposition when we were 10 doing the Lilly depositions, so I think for Mr. Myers to raise 11 this at this time when it wasn't an issue -- 12 JUDGE POTTER: All right. Let me go through it 13 and see where we are. Okay. Ms. Zettler, have you found any 14 kind of thing that you think might undermine Mr. Myers's 15 argument? 16 MS. ZETTLER: Not in this particular deposition, 17 no, Judge. But, again, I would like to point out that that 18 wasn't something that was taken into consideration when we 19 went through all those Lilly depositions. 20 JUDGE POTTER: There was very little that you 21 wanted to read in the Lilly depositions that I kept out. I'm 22 just thinking. Also, I can remember -- I don't want to say 23 it's what I kept in or what I kept out, but I do think there 24 was an awful lot -- I mean, it's hard for me to think of 25 anything you wanted to read that I kept out. 10 1 MS. ZETTLER: There was actually stuff that you 2 did keep out, Judge. 3 JUDGE POTTER: But it dealt more with a topic or 4 something rather than... 5 MS. ZETTLER: I think the problems with these 6 depositions in general is that they're replete with Mr. 7 Stopher or whoever is examining the witness suggesting 8 answers. I think Ms. Kannapel here is in her 70s. She's sort 9 of accepting things and then she's expanding on things like 10 this thing on Page 26 here where she starts talking about 11 Rosie, and Wesbecker coming after her with a knife. These 12 questions are better asked of the persons who were actually 13 involved. For instance, there's one in here about John 14 Montgomery beating the hell out of the kid. Mr. Montgomery 15 was here; he was on the stand, he was never asked that 16 question. 17 MR. MYERS: That would seem to be a matter for 18 argument. 19 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. I don't understand 44, Ms. 20 Zettler. It says nonresponsive. Maybe you're thinking of a 21 different page. It says, "You mentioned a couple times now 22 one incident you recall you went to jail; is that correct?" 23 She says uh-huh. "How old were you at that time," and it goes 24 on -- I'm just thinking maybe... 25 MS. ZETTLER: Maybe it is. Hold on. Let me 11 1 read this. I think what it is is the objection is wrong. I 2 think the objection should be leading. 3 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. 4 MS. ZETTLER: Especially since she never 5 testified to two separate incidences. 6 JUDGE POTTER: Is there a mistype on Page 50? 7 You only have them -- oh, I see. It's 1 through 3, probably. 8 MS. ZETTLER: Yeah, it is. I'm sorry. I think 9 what happened there, if you overrule our objections, then I 10 want them to read up to 13 in that page. 11 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Okay. Mr. Myers? 12 MR. MYERS: Yes, sir. 13 JUDGE POTTER: Page 62, what are you planning to 14 read? What you've got marked there doesn't start with a 15 question. It's not like the question that, you know, picks up 16 a few pages before. 17 MR. MYERS: I think we'll withdraw 16 to 18 and 18 start with 19. So we'll just take out 16 to 18 and start with 19 the question. 20 JUDGE POTTER: All right. That was her 21 objection that it was the middle of an answer, no question. 22 Well, on 71, we'll go along with her. She says she shouldn't 23 mention it and we'll let her have her way. 24 MS. ZETTLER: Huh? 25 JUDGE POTTER: I was just talking to myself. 12 1 Okay. Ms. Zettler, what does 4 through 12 add to anything on 2 72? 3 MS. ZETTLER: First of all, she answers a 4 question and, again, it's starting in the middle of an answer 5 and they're talking about when he saw her, where she saw him 6 last time. 7 JUDGE POTTER: All right. 8 MS. ZETTLER: And it's the same with 19 through 9 23 on that page, Judge. 10 JUDGE POTTER: 19 through 23, I can see why that 11 adds something, but the other one I can't. Okay. Just so 12 there's no mistake, I assume on this one you objected to 9 13 through 16, you're cutting it here? 14 MS. ZETTLER: Exactly. 15 MS. ZETTLER: We have no problems with "no, 16 nothing negative," but everything after that is nonresponsive 17 and hearsay. 18 JUDGE POTTER: Let me tell you what I've done. 19 I feel fairly confident that I understand the issues, 20 unlike -- well, I think I understood the issues in the other 21 ones, but in this one I'm fairly confident I understand the 22 factual background, so I'm overruling all objections except 23 Page 29, 30, 41, 46, 49, 50 -- 24 MR. MYERS: On 50, Judge, are you sustaining the 25 objection or granting their request to read through Line 13? 13 1 That was the one where there was some confusion as to 2 whether -- 3 JUDGE POTTER: I sustained the objection to 4 strike out 49 and the top part of 50. 5 MS. ZETTLER: So then we're not going to need to 6 read the rest of it? 7 JUDGE POTTER: That's right. I sustained the 8 objection. 51, 51 -- all three on 51. Page 52, Page 62, 9 Page 71. 10 MS. ZETTLER: Page 52, 62. 11 JUDGE POTTER: I overruled 60. The Plaintiffs 12 can read it like we did before. If you want to read it like 13 it's cross-examination, you can read it. So it's 62, 71 -- 14 MS. ZETTLER: 62 was withdrawn, wasn't it? 15 JUDGE POTTER: Or I sustained it, however it 16 comes out. 17 MS. ZETTLER: And then 71 sustained. I'm just 18 getting confused. Okay. 19 JUDGE POTTER: Right. 72 is sustained, 72 again 20 is sustained. 73 is sustained, and 76 is sustained. 21 MS. ZETTLER: So all the rest of them on the 22 first page -- 23 JUDGE POTTER: Stay in. 24 MS. ZETTLER: Okay. I guess the one that I 25 really have a problem with I'd like to make a record on is 26. 14 1 JUDGE POTTER: Why do I have something marked? 2 MS. ZETTLER: 26 is 14 through 18, I believe. 3 JUDGE POTTER: All right. I had two of them, 4 then. 5 MS. ZETTLER: It's the worst kind of 6 speculation: He was very jealous of her. 7 MR. MYERS: There should have been an objection 8 to the form of the question so the question could be asked 9 again. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Myers, I'm not going to 11 change my ruling. 12 MS. ZETTLER: I'm not a psychiatrist or 13 anything. I don't know how you really call that spoiling. 14 She's just rattling at this point, Judge. 15 JUDGE POTTER: I think in a family situation -- 16 she lived in the household. She was part of the family. I 17 think it's permissible for somebody to say somebody is spoiled 18 or one child is jealous of another. 19 MR. MYERS: So everything is still the same on 20 the first page? 21 JUDGE POTTER: Right. 22 MR. MYERS: All right, sir. Thank you. 23 MS. ZETTLER: And then the things like on the 24 second page, read for completeness and you sustained that. 25 Are they going to read this since it's tied into their part? 15 1 JUDGE POTTER: I believe there was one that I 2 overruled. 3 MR. MYERS: Yeah. Page 60. 4 JUDGE POTTER: That said if you wanted to read 5 it on cross-examination you could. Mr. Myers, you get a 6 certain kind of pleasure when you take the big pen and mark. 7 MR. MYERS: Mr. Stopher's office marked these 8 and I don't want to remark them for fear of upsetting that. 9 JUDGE POTTER: That was very gratifying when you 10 use a big black pen so you can slash away. 11 Richard Keilman, who is Mr. Keilman? 12 MR. STOPHER: He's a pressman. 13 JUDGE POTTER: Let me have your list. Did they 14 send it to you this way? 15 MR. MYERS: I think it was a transcript and a 16 disk and it was just more compact that way when we printed it 17 off. Judge, as a preliminary matter on this one there are a 18 number of objections here that state irrelevant, 1988 fire, 19 11-88 fire, and I think Mr. Stopher might want to address that 20 because that was taken up on a motion in limine sometime ago 21 and was overruled, I believe. 22 MS. ZETTLER: Can I make a request that if we're 23 going to do this that one person on each side do this as 24 opposed to double teaming me here? 25 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher, tell me who Mr. 16 1 Keilman is and besides being a pressman. He was there in 2 September of '89, or not? 3 MR. STOPHER: He was not involved in the 4 shootings on the day of the occurrence, no. 5 JUDGE POTTER: But he was still employed there? 6 MR. STOPHER: I believe that he was still 7 employed there at the time but was not on duty, Judge. 8 JUDGE POTTER: And what are you trying to show 9 from him? 10 MR. STOPHER: Well, I did not bring my notes 11 specifically so I'm operating from memory, but Mr. Keilman had 12 information about the attitude particularly of the union 13 employees, like Mr. Wesbecker, toward management and Shea 14 particularly after the transition occurred and particularly 15 after the fire occurred. 16 JUDGE POTTER: Now, the '88 fire was the one 17 that shut down one of the areas? 18 MR. STOPHER: Right. Caused a lot of layoffs. 19 JUDGE POTTER: And the buyout or whatever it 20 was? 21 MS. ZETTLER: I'd like to point out that Mr. 22 Wesbecker was gone by this time. The fire happened in 23 November of 1988. Mr. Wesbecker was gone as of August. 24 JUDGE POTTER: He was already on LTD? 25 MS. ZETTLER: I have no problems with Mr. 17 1 Stopher trying to establish what the feelings of the pressmen 2 were prior to Mr. Wesbecker's leaving, but this is just 3 completely irrelevant. 4 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, it's not irrelevant 5 for a lot of reasons. After the fire -- 6 JUDGE POTTER: We have two fires and one of them 7 was after the shooting; right? 8 MR. STOPHER: Correct. And the importance of 9 that fire was that these cutbacks and layoffs and the threat 10 of retiring -- or the threat of cutting off retiree benefits 11 all occurred after the fire or were continued after the fire 12 and became more real. Mr. Wesbecker followed this fire. 13 JUDGE POTTER: How do we know that? 14 MR. STOPHER: Because Mr. Lucas is going to 15 testify about it. 16 JUDGE POTTER: All right. 17 MR. STOPHER: And he followed how Shea was 18 dealing with the employees after the fire. So it is relevant 19 to show the background against which a lot of his statements 20 are going to be made. I don't intend, Your Honor, to spend 21 any appreciable amount of time on the November '88 fire at 22 all, but it does affect the attitude of even employees on 23 disability. 24 MS. ZETTLER: Your Honor, if I may, I think 25 Mr. -- all Mr. Lucas is going to testify to is as to how this 18 1 so-called -- supposedly affected Mr. Wesbecker is that he came 2 to see him in the hospital and said something to the effect of 3 "I'm glad the fire happened." Okay. They are not going to be 4 able to connect up, Number One, that Mr. Wesbecker had any 5 problems with this or voiced any concerns about the retiree 6 benefits and, Number Two, that anybody's retiree benefits were 7 cut. 8 JUDGE POTTER: Let me just take a look at what's 9 going on (reviews document). 10 MR. MYERS: The read for completeness is on the 11 first page, the two that are on there. I think everything 12 else is the fire. 13 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. But if I strike out the 14 fire they go, too. 15 MR. MYERS: That's right. But just to make it 16 more... 17 JUDGE POTTER: All right. All right. 18 MS. ZETTLER: I think the fire actually goes up 19 through Page 26, Judge. 20 JUDGE POTTER: I'm getting some on 24 that's 21 different. 24 and 25 I'm getting something that's different; 22 that's them knowing about and complaining about the fact that 23 he took the excess out of the pension plan. 24 MS. ZETTLER: Right. But it never pins down in 25 here what time period that is. 19 1 JUDGE POTTER: I'm assuming that by other things 2 we're going to establish that ten minutes after he took over 3 he did the money out of the pension plan. Mike Shea does not 4 impress me as a person that would wait to put his hands on 5 money. 6 MS. ZETTLER: Unless, of course, he did it for a 7 tax break for a year or two. 8 JUDGE POTTER: I'm going to leave in the 24 and 9 25 and, Mr. Stopher, I'm going to sustain the objections to 10 the fire in this particular man's testimony. I just -- 11 there's a great deal of testimony devoted to it. I'm not 12 saying you can't get in the fact that at some point that there 13 was a fire and that there were layoffs, but this is just more 14 this man's personal experience with it than anything that has 15 relevance to this case. 16 MR. MYERS: How far down are you going, Judge? 17 JUDGE POTTER: What I'm reading is I'm 18 sustaining everything except the bottom half of 24 and the top 19 of 25, because I see that as a different topic. 20 MS. ZETTLER: So Line 1 on 24 is out; right? 21 JUDGE POTTER: Yeah. 22 MS. ZETTLER: And the part that we designated to 23 read, is that in, too, then, 24, Lines 2 through 8? Hold on a 24 second, let me see. 25 JUDGE POTTER: I mean -- 20 1 MS. ZETTLER: That's fine. Take that out. 2 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. 3 MR. MYERS: You're withdrawing that? 4 MS. ZETTLER: Yeah. But, Your Honor, I would 5 ask that entire questions be read, though. I mean, entire 6 questions and entire answers because it can change the spin of 7 a question, not necessarily in this case. 8 JUDGE POTTER: I think that's fair. They made 9 you go through a lot of false starts. 10 MS. ZETTLER: And then this Page 25 you're 11 sustaining -- or you're overruling our objection to 1 through 12 4; right? 13 JUDGE POTTER: Yeah. 14 MS. ZETTLER: Can they read then the 10 through 15 25 on that page? 16 JUDGE POTTER: Yeah. 17 MS. ZETTLER: Okay. So that's sustained. 18 MR. MYERS: So let me get this straight. 19 JUDGE POTTER: So far you will start with Line 8 20 on 24 and read through Line 25 on 25. 21 MS. ZETTLER: And then there's like a 22 follow-over on 26 for the first few lines. 23 JUDGE POTTER: Oh, is there? Okay. 24 MR. MYERS: So starting with Line 8 on Page 24 25 through Line 7 on Page 26 are all in? 21 1 JUDGE POTTER: Say that again, Mr. Myers. 2 MR. MYERS: Starting with Line 8 on Page 24 3 through Line 7 on Page 26, which they've asked for for 4 completeness, are all in? 5 MS. ZETTLER: Right. 6 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Is the web a piece of 7 paper; is that what we're talking about? 8 MR. STOPHER: Right. 9 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher, I'm overruling their 10 objections to this 31, 32, 33, but what I'm saying is you may 11 want to pick your times because there is going to come a time 12 at which -- when the 700th person said he didn't like to run 13 the folder, I'm going to start sustaining the objections as 14 cumulative. You may want to rethink what you're reading in 15 this and save some of the statements in your live people. 16 MS. ZETTLER: A number of the depositions that 17 we've read over for today and tomorrow everybody says he 18 didn't like the folder. 19 JUDGE POTTER: At this point I'm not going to 20 say I've heard enough, but at some point I'm going to say I've 21 heard enough. 22 MS. ZETTLER: What did you do with 26? I'm 23 sorry, Judge. 24 JUDGE POTTER: I sustained that. 25 MS. ZETTLER: And how about 30, first part of 22 1 the page? 2 JUDGE POTTER: 24 overruled. 25 is overruled. 3 Second 25 is sustained. Second 26 is sustained. 30, 31, 32, 4 33 are overruled. 5 MR. MYERS: The only I guess clarification I 6 have is that we're going to start reading on Line 8 at 24; in 7 other words, they've withdrawn Line 2 through 7 on 24; right? 8 MS. ZETTLER: 2 through 8 or whatever. 9 2 through 7, yes. You keep confusing me, Larry, by going back 10 like this. 11 MR. MYERS: Right. 2 through 7. 12 JUDGE POTTER: On the 33 and 34 read for 13 completeness, I have sustained them. On the 34 through 37 14 hearsay, I've overruled it. Well, let's put it this way. 15 I've sustained the objection except for 34, Line 23, through 16 35, Line 3. And 36, Line 22 through 37, Line 4. And 17 basically those are the two statements from his own knowledge 18 that Wesbecker had told him he hated Cox and McKeown. 19 MR. MYERS: So we can read Lines 23, 24 on Page 20 34; Lines 1 through 3 on Page 35; Lines 22 through 25 on Page 21 36; and Lines 1 through 4 on Page 37? 22 JUDGE POTTER: Uh-huh. Those are just... 23 MR. MYERS: All right, sir. 24 MS. ZETTLER: So then this 37, 13 through 22, we 25 don't need to read that then? 23 1 JUDGE POTTER: Right. 2 MR. MYERS: What about 37, 5 through 12? 3 JUDGE POTTER: I sustained that one. 38 is 4 sustained. That's just filling in the blank in a question. 5 MR. MYERS: Nancy, you're taking out 37, 13 6 through 22? 7 MS. ZETTLER: Right. 8 MR. MYERS: And 38, 10 through 13 is sustained? 9 MS. ZETTLER: Right. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Uh-huh. 11 MR. MYERS: All right. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Same with 39, sustained. 40 is 13 overruled. Number 42 is overruled, the first part of it. The 14 first 42, let me see about the second one. The second 42 is 15 overruled, also. Both 43s are overruled and the first 44 is 16 sustained. 17 MS. ZETTLER: Okay. Wait a minute. You say 18 both 43, one is a read for completeness. If you're overruling 19 43 -- 20 JUDGE POTTER: I'm sorry. You're right. I'm 21 overruling 43 and sustaining the second 43 and the first 44. 22 MS. ZETTLER: Okay. I was confused. 23 MR. MYERS: The first 43 is overruled, the 24 second 43 is sustained and the first 44 is sustained. All 25 right, sir. 24 1 JUDGE POTTER: And the second 44 is sustained, 2 as is 45; the first 45 is sustained, the read-for-completeness 3 ones. 16 through 22 is in fact hearsay, so it's sustained on 4 Page 45. 5 MS. ZETTLER: I think that's a mistake, Judge. 6 MR. MYERS: Which is a mistake? 7 JUDGE POTTER: 45 is right. 8 MS. ZETTLER: No. No. You're right. I'm 9 sorry. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher, I take it you 11 cross-examined this fellow with The Courier-Journal article; 12 we're not going to have anybody coming in with The 13 Courier-Journal to say he made some statements? I mean, you 14 haven't got a reporter from The Courier-Journal? 15 MR. STOPHER: No. 16 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. I think the best thing to 17 do with this is knock out everything from Page 45, Line 23, 18 through Page 47, because that's her completenesses and your 19 objections and everything. 20 MS. ZETTLER: So 45 is sustained, 46 is 21 sustained, if that's the case we'll withdraw 46 through -- 22 JUDGE POTTER: Well, but you've even left in 23 some stuff, Ms. Zettler. If I sustain, your things don't make 24 any sense. So just everything from 45, Line 23. 25 MR. MYERS: To Page 47? 25 1 JUDGE POTTER: Through Page 47. 2 MS. ZETTLER: Is all out? 3 JUDGE POTTER: Is all out. 4 MS. ZETTLER: Okay. 5 JUDGE POTTER: Then I assume that takes out 47, 6 48 and 49 for your completeness? 7 MS. ZETTLER: 47 for sure. Let's see, 48, 8 that's fine. That's okay. 9 JUDGE POTTER: If you want to read it as part of 10 yours you can. 11 MS. ZETTLER: We'll withdraw 48. 12 MR. MYERS: And 49, just Line 1? 13 MS. ZETTLER: Yeah. Judge, I'm not sure if you 14 realize this, but it's after nine. 15 JUDGE POTTER: Do you-all need this before 16 lunch, you think? 17 MR. STOPHER: No. 18 MS. ZETTLER: Can we get an idea who's up this 19 morning? 20 MR. STOPHER: Sure. Helm, Senters, Coffey, 21 McMillan, Cox, Frazier and West. 22 MS. ZETTLER: Frazier is not on your first or 23 second list. He's on your second list. 24 MR. STOPHER: He's on the second list. 25 MS. ZETTLER: So we are not prepared for him and 26 1 you did not tell us yesterday you were calling him today. You 2 were going down the list from your first list. He's somebody 3 that's off the track. 4 MR. STOPHER: He'll be in the afternoon. 5 MR. SMITH: No. We're not going to do Frazier 6 today. 7 JUDGE POTTER: We'll take it up at lunchtime 8 when we finish the depositions. Who is he? 9 MS. ZETTLER: He's a fairly heavy player. 10 MR. STOPHER: He's the president of the union. 11 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS OCCURRED 12 IN OPEN COURT) 13 SHERIFF CECIL: All rise. The Honorable Judge 14 John Potter is now presiding. Court is now in session. All 15 jurors are present. Court is now in session. 16 JUDGE POTTER: I take it, Ms. Felker, since 17 you're not sitting by the door the boat has righted itself? 18 JUROR FELKER: Yes. 19 JUDGE POTTER: Ladies and gentlemen, I didn't 20 give you sort of the last admonition last night because you 21 left kind of in the middle of a recess. Did anybody have any 22 difficulty refraining from finding out any information about 23 the case? How about you, Ms. Franklin, did you have any 24 problems? 25 JUROR FRANKLIN: No, sir. 27 1 JUDGE POTTER: Did somebody run up and shove the 2 newspaper in front of your face or anything like that? 3 JUROR FRANKLIN: No, sir. 4 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher, do you want to call 5 your next witness? 6 MR. STOPHER: Thank you, Judge. William B. 7 Helm. 8 JUDGE POTTER: Sir, would you step down here and 9 raise your right hand, please. 10 11 WILLIAM B. HELM, after first being duly sworn, 12 was examined and testified as follows: 13 14 JUDGE POTTER: Please walk around and have a 15 seat in the jury box. Would you keep your voice up good and 16 loud and spell your first and last names for me and then state 17 your full name. 18 MR. HELM: My name is William Helm, 19 W-I-L-L-I-A-M; Helm, H-E-L-M; William B. Helm. 20 JUDGE POTTER: Answer Mr. Stopher's questions. 21 22 EXAMINATION ___________ 23 24 BY_MR._STOPHER: __ ___ ________ 25 Q. Mr. Helm, where do you live, sir? 28 1 A. 1377 Raymond Road, Shepherdsville, Kentucky. 2 Q. Shepherdsville? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. And, Mr. Helm, how old are you, sir? 5 A. Sixty-two. 6 Q. And by whom are you employed? 7 A. I'm retired. 8 Q. Mr. Helm, are you from the Louisville area? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And go to high school here? 11 A. Manual. 12 Q. And after you got out of high school, sir, what 13 did you do? 14 A. Went to work at Standard Gravure while I was in 15 high school. 16 Q. And what year approximately did you start there, 17 sir? 18 A. April 1949. 19 Q. And how long did you work there? 20 A. Thirty-eight years. 21 Q. Which would take us until nineteen eighty -- 22 A. '86. 23 Q. -- six; am I right, sir? 24 A. (Nods head affirmatively). 25 Q. And after 1986, were you employed elsewhere, 29 1 sir? 2 A. I went from Standard to the Arcadia -- in San 3 Jose, California -- printing outfit. 4 Q. I'm having a little trouble hearing you, sir. 5 There's a brown microphone there on the table in front of you 6 and that's the one that picks up here in the courtroom. 7 A. Okay. 8 Q. All right. That's much better. That's much 9 better. If you'll try to speak into that, I think everybody 10 will have a good ability to hear you. In 1986, you left 11 Standard Gravure and went where, sir? 12 A. Arcadia Graphics in San Jose, California. 13 Q. And is that another printing concern, sir? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. And how long did you work there? 16 A. Sixteen months. 17 Q. And did you retire then? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And been retired ever since? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. So since approximately 1988, you've been 22 retired? 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. All right, sir. Now, let me go back, of course, 25 to when you worked at Standard Gravure. First of all, sir, 30 1 would you give us the job titles that you held there from '49 2 to 1986? 3 A. I was a fly-boy, apprentice from 1949 -- I 4 started as a fly-boy, went to apprenticeship about early '50s, 5 and received my journeyman card in the late '50s, became the 6 man in charge in the early '60s, and in the late '60s I became 7 an acting foreman, and in the early '70s I was a foreman, then 8 a general foreman and then the pressroom superintendent. 9 Q. And let me ask you, sir, with regard to being 10 pressroom superintendent, first of all, what is that? 11 A. I was in charge of the pressmen in the 12 pressroom, paper receiving group and the paper handlers. 13 Q. In other words, you were in charge of the whole 14 pressroom operation at Standard Gravure? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. When did you hold that position, sir? 17 A. I worked as general manager or general foreman 18 from about '80 to late '82. Frank Phillips was the pressroom 19 superintendent and he became ill and retired, and then I took 20 over as pressroom superintendent then. 21 Q. So in approximately 1982, you became pressroom 22 superintendent? 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. And did you remain pressroom superintendent 25 until you left in 1986? 31 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Who followed you, if you know, sir, as pressroom 3 superintendent? 4 A. Well, there was two areas. Donald Cox -- in the 5 mid '80s, Donald Cox took over Area One and I went to Area 6 Two. There was two pressrooms involved. 7 Q. And after you left in '86, do you know what 8 happened to your vacancy? 9 A. Donald Cox took over. 10 Q. Took over both? 11 A. I believe he took over both areas. 12 Q. All right, sir. So from approximately 1982 on, 13 the pressroom superintendent was either yourself or Donald Cox 14 in the later years; correct? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. All right. Now, sir, let me first of all direct 17 your attention to Mike Shea and his takeover of Standard 18 Gravure. Can you tell us approximately when that was, sir? 19 A. I believe Mike Shea took over in June or July of 20 '86, something like that. 21 Q. And were you pressroom superintendent at that 22 time? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And prior to that time, who had owned and 25 operated Standard Gravure? 32 1 A. Mr. Bingham. 2 Q. And you had been there since 1949 under his 3 ownership and general direction, sir? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Now, sir, after Mr. Shea took over, you were in 6 charge of the pressroom as pressroom superintendent, including 7 all the pressmen; correct, sir? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. Would you tell us about morale in the pressroom 10 after Mr. Shea took over? 11 A. Well, the morale wasn't the greatest because of 12 the moratorium that occurred in '82. 13 Q. And what was the moratorium? 14 A. That was the buyout. 15 Q. What was the buyout, sir? 16 A. Well, the union got together with the company 17 and they set up a plan to where certain people could take a 18 certain amount or -- early retirement or a buyout, and with 19 that would come supposedly no layoff and the profit-sharing 20 program. And I believe it was at that time, too, also they 21 had a -- reduced manning was installed, I believe is what it 22 was. 23 Q. I'm a little confused, sir. There was a trade 24 apparently of some sort called generally the moratorium; is 25 that right, sir? 33 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And am I correct that it was agreed by 3 management that there would be no more layoffs? 4 A. There was an agreement as far as in the -- I did 5 not take place initiating the moratorium. Frank Phillips was 6 the superintendent and I was the general foreman and he went 7 to the meetings, but from what I can remember, it seems there 8 was supposed to be a profit-sharing program, a reduction in 9 the manning, and with a reduction in the manning would simply 10 be that the men took the early retirement. There would be no 11 layoffs because of that. 12 Q. Okay. Now, when Mr. Shea came in did he want to 13 continue that moratorium? 14 A. The moratorium continued, yes. 15 Q. Did that include no more layoffs? 16 A. That wasn't discussed as far as the moratorium 17 until later with me. 18 Q. What discussions and what changes, if any, were 19 there by Shea with regard to layoffs after he came in? 20 A. I don't believe that we had any more layoffs 21 after Mike Shea came in. 22 Q. Did he tell you that he had planned another 23 manning cut? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Was that consistent with the moratorium or 34 1 inconsistent with it? 2 A. When Mr. Al Diebald came in, Al Diebald did a 3 manning cut on the proof press, and the men accepted the 4 manning cut. And Mr. Shea wanted to do another manning cut on 5 the proof press. 6 Q. What was your position with regard to that, sir, 7 as the pressroom superintendent? 8 A. I had made a promise to the men if they accepted 9 the first manning cut that I wouldn't ask for another one. 10 Q. And did Mr. Shea ask for another one? 11 A. He was going to. 12 Q. What did you do, sir? 13 A. I had a job offer in California and I quit. 14 Q. Was your management style consistent with Mr. 15 Shea's? 16 MR. SMITH: We object to that as being 17 immaterial, Your Honor. 18 JUDGE POTTER: Sustained. 19 Q. Mr. Helm, with regard to the manning cut, what 20 effect did that have on morale after Mr. Shea came in? 21 A. I was gone when they implicated that -- implied 22 that, as far as I know. It wasn't done while I was there. 23 Q. Did the moratorium include, sir, a wage freeze? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. In other words, wages had been frozen since 35 1 1982? 2 A. Other than the small profit sharing that they 3 received I think on about two or three occasions. 4 Q. Now, sir, if I understand correctly, you left in 5 1986. Do you recall about what month, sir? 6 A. November. 7 Q. And you went to California to take a job there; 8 am I right? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. And did you ever come back to Standard Gravure 11 after that, sir? 12 A. I did. 13 Q. And about when did you come back? 14 A. I believe it was '86 or '87. 15 Q. And what was the reason for that? 16 A. There was a gravure research meeting at The 17 Brown Hotel. 18 Q. Could it have been '87 or early '88, sir? 19 A. No. I believe it was around Christmastime. I'm 20 not for sure on the dates. I thought it was around 21 Christmastime of '86 or '87. 22 Q. Well, you left in November of '86. 23 A. And I can't remember if it was the next month or 24 a year later. I just can't remember the date. 25 Q. It could have been December of '86 or it could 36 1 have been December of '87? 2 A. I believe that's right. 3 Q. Do you remember, sir, giving your deposition in 4 this case on June 4, 1993? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. Let me ask you if this refreshes your memory at 7 all. Page 20, Line 20, "Question: And that was in probably 8 late '86 or early '87? 9 "Answer: No. I think it was late '87 is when I 10 think it was, around December of '87." 11 A. I believe that's '86 or '87, December. 12 Q. Now, sir, when you came back, approximately how 13 long did you stay at Standard Gravure? 14 A. I brought I think a group of men with me and 15 they toured the building -- or, not the building but the 16 pressroom, and I was in the pressroom approximately -- I'm 17 going to say an hour. 18 Q. And were you there just one hour out of that 19 whole time, sir? 20 A. I brought the men in and then I went around and 21 talked to some of the men in Area Two and Area One. That was 22 about an hour. I didn't stay too long, I don't believe. 23 Q. Prior to that occasion, sir, had you known 24 Joseph Wesbecker? 25 A. Yes. 37 1 Q. How long approximately had you known him? 2 A. Since he started to work there. 3 Q. Do you recall when that was? 4 A. I believe it was in the early '70s. 5 Q. And from time to time did you work with him? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Was he a good worker? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Was he conscientious? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. During the 1980s, did you see any changes in his 12 life-style or in his behavior? 13 A. During the early '80s, I believe that seems to 14 be -- he was going through a divorce in the late '70s or early 15 '80s, I can't remember for sure, he got a divorce in then, and 16 he became a little irritated by his divorce. 17 Q. He became what, sir? 18 A. Irritated. Irritated. 19 Q. Did you sometimes see changes in him then as to 20 what he did with his time when he wasn't working? 21 A. No. I didn't run around with Joe or anything 22 like that, so I don't know what he did on his time, really. 23 Q. Did you have any information that he had become 24 a ladies' man? 25 MR. SMITH: Objection, leading, Your Honor. 38 1 JUDGE POTTER: Sustained. 2 Q. Did he have any interest in female companions in 3 the early '80s, sir? 4 A. Yes. He talked about going out and drinking 5 and -- not personal things that he did, just that he went out 6 quite a bit and picked up some ladies or women, ladies, 7 whatever. 8 Q. Did he pick up a nickname at that time, sir? 9 A. I've heard since your -- when I talked to you in 10 June that he had, but I just heard that. 11 MR. SMITH: Objection. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Sustained. Sustained. 13 Q. Let me refer you back to your deposition, sir, 14 Page 36, Line 8. Let me ask you if you gave these answers, 15 sir. "During that post-divorce period did he have any 16 nicknames? 17 "Answer: Two that I recall. 18 "Question: And what were they, sir? 19 "Answer: One was Rocky and the other one was 20 the Doughboy." 21 A. I remember that. I thought you were referring 22 to another question that you had asked. 23 Q. I'm sorry, sir. 24 A. He did have the nickname of Rocky and Doughboy. 25 Q. And how did he get the nickname Rocky, do you 39 1 know, sir? 2 A. I believe Johnny Tingle gave it to him, I'm not 3 for sure. 4 Q. Do you know the circumstances of how he got that 5 name? 6 A. No, none whatsoever. 7 Q. Did you ever hear Joe Wesbecker discuss mental 8 illness, sir? 9 A. When I came back in '86 or '87, but not before 10 then. 11 Q. No, sir. I haven't gotten back to that yet, but 12 I'll come back to that. 13 A. I don't recall him saying anything about any 14 mental illness. 15 Q. Let me refer you again to your deposition, sir, 16 Page 37, Line 14: "Question: During the 1980s, sir, did you 17 ever hear him discuss or mention mental illness or emotional 18 difficulties? 19 "Answer: Yes." 20 A. Emotional difficulties. When he was trying to 21 get off the folder, he said he was nervous. 22 MR. SMITH: Your Honor, the next question and 23 answer establishes it was the late '80s. 24 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher, why don't you read 25 the complete -- 40 1 MR. STOPHER: I was going to when Mr. Helm 2 answered it. 3 Let me read the whole thing and then we'll be 4 sure and have it in the record. Line 14, "Question: During 5 the 1980s, sir, did you ever hear him discuss or mention 6 mental illness or emotional difficulties? 7 "Answer: Yes. 8 "Question: When did he first start talking 9 about that subject? I know you can't fix an exact date on it, 10 sir. 11 "Answer: It was in the late '80s. 12 "Question: Late '80s? 13 "Answer: Right." 14 What do you recall that he told you about 15 difficulties that he was having at that time, sir? 16 A. The only thing I remember about Joe is he wanted 17 to get off the folder. He said he was having nervous problems 18 and he couldn't work the folder. 19 Q. Did he give you any specifics as to what sort of 20 nervous problems he was having? 21 A. None that I recall other than it was making him 22 nervous. 23 Q. When he made that request of you, sir, you were 24 the pressroom superintendent? 25 A. Yes. Now, Donald Cox might have been in -- I 41 1 can't remember if I was in Area Two and Donald was in Area One 2 or not. I can't remember that. But he was talking to me, I 3 know. 4 Q. And when he made that request of you, what was 5 your response, sir? 6 A. I told him I'd tell the foremans not to use him 7 unless it was absolutely necessary. 8 Q. Did you give him a permanent exemption so he'd 9 never, ever have to work the folder? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Had that ever been done for other employees? 12 A. On one occasion. 13 MR. SMITH: Your Honor, that would be 14 immaterial. 15 JUDGE POTTER: Overruled. 16 Q. And who was given a permanent exemption from 17 ever having to work the folder? 18 A. Billy Ganote. 19 Q. Why wasn't Joe Wesbecker given a permanent 20 exemption? 21 A. It wasn't what we would call a permanent 22 position. What it was was Billy Ganote had a real bad 23 accident, lost both of his fingers or a lot of his fingers on 24 both hands, and when he came back to work he requested not to 25 be put on the folder. And we said, "Okay. That's fine. 42 1 Until you're ready to work the folder again, we'll keep you 2 off the folder." He said he wanted to work the folder again, 3 but he wasn't ready to go back at that time. 4 Q. In Mr. Wesbecker's case, was it determined that 5 he could or that he couldn't work the folder without becoming 6 very nervous? 7 A. We just said the same thing again to him that we 8 had said to previous people: "We will not work you on the 9 folder unless it's absolutely necessary." 10 Q. Now, sir, you told the other foremen about that? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Did you tell them why he wanted off of the 13 folder? 14 A. I just told them not to put him on the folder 15 unless it was absolutely necessary. 16 Q. You didn't tell them that it made him nervous? 17 A. No. I don't believe I did. I don't recall. 18 Q. Did he come back to you after he made that first 19 request and request the same thing again? 20 A. I believe he did, yes. 21 Q. In other words, he came to you the first time, 22 this discussion occurred and then he came back? 23 A. He said the men -- he said he was working the 24 folder and he couldn't do it, he was nervous. And I asked him 25 to go out and get the chairman. I believe I asked him to get 43 1 the chairman or else he had the chairman with him. 2 Q. In other words, you had asked the foremen not to 3 put him on the folder and the second time he came back to you 4 and told you that he was or he wasn't working the folder? 5 MR. SMITH: We'd object to this. This is 6 repetitive, asked and answered. 7 JUDGE POTTER: Overruled. 8 Q. Go ahead, sir. 9 A. He came back in and said that they had put him 10 on the folder again and I believe it might have been the 11 secondary winder, but I'm not sure about that, and I went down 12 and I told them again, unless it was necessary, not to put him 13 on the folder again. 14 Q. You were saying something, sir, about going to 15 get the union representative or the steward? 16 A. I believe Joe either asked for it or I asked him 17 to have the chairman in there at that time. 18 Q. Did that occur, sir? 19 A. Yes. He went out and I believe he got the 20 chairman or the chairman was with him. I cannot remember the 21 sequence of it. 22 Q. And again the request was the same, to get off 23 of the folder permanently? 24 A. That is the standard answer that we give to a 25 person, because a lot of people come in and say they want off 44 1 the folder, and we tell them that same thing. And a lot of 2 times they'll come back and want to be put back on the folder 3 or they'll just shake it off and say, "I'll work the folder 4 one way or the other." 5 Q. What was the standard answer, sir? 6 A. "We will not use you on the folder unless it's 7 absolutely necessary." 8 Q. Did -- was there any appeal process from that, 9 sir? 10 A. Oh, I imagine he could have gone to somebody 11 above me, but I don't remember or recall of anybody ever doing 12 that because I feel sure it would have been the same answer. 13 Q. Who could he have gone to? 14 A. I would imagine it would probably have been at 15 that time Lloyd Cravens or Odie Martin, somebody like that. 16 Q. Who was Lloyd Cravens? 17 A. He was -- I believe he was production manager 18 then, him or Odie one. 19 Q. Were they considered to be up in management up 20 on the third floor? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Did you tell Mr. Wesbecker that he could go do 23 that and appeal your decision? 24 A. No. He didn't ask or anything. 25 Q. Now, sir, with regard to the pressroom in the 45 1 mid 1980s, we've heard mention so far, sir, of solvents that 2 were used in the printing process; correct, sir? 3 A. Right. 4 Q. Would you tell us what those chemicals or those 5 solvents were that were used? 6 A. In the mid '80s, we were using mostly naphtha 7 and xylene. 8 Q. And did that ever change, sir? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And what happened? 11 A. They started adding toluene to the solvents. 12 Q. Toluene? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. Was there a problem with that, sir? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. What was the problem? 17 A. It created rashes and headaches and some people 18 complained of dizziness. 19 Q. Rashes, headaches and dizziness? 20 A. Uh-huh. 21 Q. Was there an investigation done of that? 22 A. We had ongoing people coming in from certain -- 23 I don't know -- I don't think it was EPA, but they were 24 individuals that were hired as consultants and the men wore, 25 like, air packs or little gauges on them to test the air. 46 1 Q. Was the -- was the toluene introduced for a 2 short period of time? 3 A. Toward the end, yes; I believe it was a short 4 period of time. 5 Q. Who was responsible for doing that? 6 A. I believe Mr. Diebald was. 7 Q. And what was the result of this investigation of 8 the air quality and the toluene, what happened? 9 A. Well, I talked with Lee Meagher and she said 10 that everything was safe, there was no problem. 11 Q. Was the toluene -- I didn't mean to interrupt 12 you. Go ahead. 13 A. I went up and asked her after of the results, 14 and they came back and Lee said that everything was fine, 15 there was no problem with it. I even believe the union 16 checked to see if there was a problem. 17 Q. Were you surprised to know that toluene was 18 being used? 19 A. To the amount, yes. 20 Q. You weren't consulted before that was added to 21 the inks, were you, sir? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Do you know who made that decision to add that 24 chemical to the inks? 25 A. I believe Al Diebald did. 47 1 Q. And after this investigation was the toluene 2 eliminated? 3 A. I don't believe it was eliminated. I think when 4 we found out it was at such a high rate it was immediately cut 5 back. To what degree or percent, I don't know. 6 Q. It had been at a high rate and that rate was cut 7 back? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. What happened to Mr. Diebald, the man that did 10 that? 11 A. He had a golden parachute and left. 12 Q. What's a golden parachute, sir? 13 A. Quite a bit of money and he left. 14 Q. Now, sir, did Joe Wesbecker ever complain to you 15 about what -- about any concerns that he had about toluene? 16 A. He may have. I just really can't recall. There 17 was a lot of complaints. 18 Q. Lot of complaints from the pressmen? 19 A. Yes. 20 MR. SMITH: Could we approach the bench, Your 21 Honor? 22 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 23 MR. SMITH: Object to Mr. Stopher continuing to 24 repeat answers he likes like "there was a lot of complaints," 25 a lot of complaints from the pressmen. And this has happened 48 1 eight times this morning already; I've counted it. We object 2 to Counsel repeating an answer that he likes. 3 MR. STOPHER: I'm not repeating an answer. I'm 4 simply using his language and incorporating it into the 5 follow-up question. 6 JUDGE POTTER: Well, you know, I think he's got 7 a right to examine the witnesses the way he wants to and, you 8 know, if he wants to use his last question as a lead-in for 9 his next one, I'm not going to, at least at this point, 10 sustain the objection. I haven't found anything that I 11 consider improper. Objection is overruled. 12 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 13 Q. Mr. Helm, let me switch your attention to 14 another topic. Was there an employee assistance person at 15 Standard Gravure while you were there? 16 A. I think maybe Pat Lampton, a counselor. 17 Q. Yes, sir. Was he there while you were there? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And what was his function at Standard Gravure? 20 A. I don't know how to describe this. Pat -- he 21 was counseling for people like that would have alcoholic 22 problems or if you had someone that had an illness or 23 something, we would send him over and Pat would talk to him. 24 I wouldn't say he was a psychiatrist, I don't believe, but he 25 would talk to the person and sometimes give us feedback on his 49 1 feelings on it. 2 Q. Who would come back and give you feedback on his 3 feelings? 4 A. Pat Lampton would tell you what his feelings 5 were. 6 Q. In other words, the employee would go to 7 Mr. Lampton; am I right? 8 A. Right. 9 Q. And then Mr. Lampton would report back to you 10 and perhaps to others about that employee? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 MR. SMITH: Objection. Leading, Your Honor. 13 Q. Did Mr. Lampton ever report to you about Mr. 14 Wesbecker? 15 A. Not that I recall. 16 Q. Did Mr. Wesbecker ever go to Mr. Lampton? 17 A. I do not know. 18 Q. Did Standard Gravure have a policy or a company 19 policy at that time about alcoholism? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And what was that, sir? 22 A. Well, it was considered an illness and men got 23 paid for it, if they were treated, as sick pay. 24 Q. What was Standard Gravure's company policy with 25 regard to mental illness? 50 1 A. I don't know if that was rewritten in the new 2 book or not. 3 Q. To your knowledge, it was not considered to be a 4 handicap, was it, sir? 5 A. I don't know if it was. 6 MR. SMITH: Objection. Leading, Your Honor. 7 JUDGE POTTER: Sustained. Sustained. 8 MR. STOPHER: Page 70, Line 4, "Question: I 9 realize, sir, this is hypothetical perhaps, but, nevertheless, 10 let me ask it. Did Standard Gravure have a policy as to 11 whether or not mental illness was a handicap? 12 "Answer: Not to my knowledge. I know we got it 13 to where alcoholism was. We got that in the company policy. 14 There might have been something in the last booklet that came 15 out on mental illness. I'm not sure." Did you give that 16 answer? 17 A. That's correct. I'm not sure about the mental 18 illness. 19 Q. During the time you were there, did you ever see 20 a company policy that recognized mental illness as a handicap? 21 A. No, I didn't. 22 Q. Now, sir, let me go back to the time after you 23 had left Standard Gravure. All right, sir? You left in 24 November of '86, went to California and you came back; am I 25 right? 51 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And about how long total were you here at that 3 time, sir? 4 A. I think it was a three-day meeting. 5 Q. And you mentioned that you were in the plant for 6 about an hour? 7 A. That's correct. 8 Q. Did you have an occasion on that visit to the 9 plant to talk to Joe Wesbecker? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And who participated in that conversation? 12 A. I was talking to someone, I don't know who it 13 was, and Joe Wesbecker came up and started talking to me and 14 the party left, and I do not remember who the party was. 15 Q. Do you recall, Mr. Helm, where you were at the 16 time? 17 A. It was by the 35-inch folder on Number Two 18 Press. 19 Q. And would that be in Area One? 20 A. Right. 21 Q. And when Mr. Wesbecker came up to talk to you, 22 what can you tell us that you recall about what was said? 23 A. He was complaining and saying that the men were 24 putting him on the folder again and he shouldn't be working 25 the folder, that he was extremely nervous. He was on 52 1 medication and that he thought it was wrong for them to do 2 that and he wanted to know what he should do. And I told him 3 that I didn't work there, but, Joe, you have four or five 4 options. He said that the doctor had put him back to work. I 5 told him to get a certificate from the doctor was the best way 6 I knew for him to be off; go to the union, go to Donald Cox 7 and go see Pat Lampton. He said, "I've done all that and it 8 didn't do any good. They still put me on the folder." 9 I told him to go back again to his doctor and he 10 said in part of the conversation that he thought Mike Shea had 11 paid the doctor off and forced him back to work. I told him I 12 did not believe that, and then that was most of the 13 conversation. He did say one other thing. He said that he 14 had had a meeting or was supposed to have a meeting with Mike 15 Shea, Don McCall and Paula Warman and that they were trying to 16 make him pay back something where -- I think he said $58,000 17 in long-term disability. That's the gist of the conversation. 18 Q. How long approximately did this conversation 19 last, sir? 20 A. Approximately ten minutes. 21 Q. How did he act during that conversation? 22 A. Well, he was upset. He was nervous because they 23 were putting him on the folder again, he said. 24 Q. And what did you notice about him that indicated 25 to you that he was upset or nervous? 53 1 A. Well, I just think he was jittery and to that 2 extent. I mean, he was just nervous. You could tell he was 3 upset. When people get upset, they get a little bit shaky 4 sometimes. 5 Q. Did he tell you who was requiring him to pay 6 back $58,000 in LTD payments? 7 A. He stated that he had had a meeting or was 8 supposed to have a meeting with Mike Shea, Don McCall and 9 Paula Warman. 10 Q. Did he indicate to you why he was to pay this 11 back? 12 A. No. He just indicated they had tried -- they 13 were going to try to get him to pay it back and he didn't 14 think it was fair. I did tell him I don't think they could do 15 it. 16 Q. Did I understand you to say, sir, something 17 about a doctor and a doctor's statement? 18 A. He said that -- I told him to get another 19 doctor's statement was the best way to be off from work. 20 Q. And what did he say about that, sir? 21 A. He said he thought Mike Shea had paid the doctor 22 off and made him come back to work. 23 Q. And you told him you didn't think that was true? 24 A. No. That's what I told him, I didn't think that 25 was true. 54 1 Q. Did he indicate anything to you, sir, as to 2 whether or not anybody was listening to his complaints? 3 A. When I told him to talk to Donald Cox and get 4 the union to go up with him, he said he had done that and 5 nobody was listening to him. He said he had already taken 6 that procedure. 7 Q. When you ended the conversation with him, sir, 8 how did it conclude? 9 A. He walked away and said he was supposed to work 10 the folder that following Saturday night, I believe is what it 11 was, and I think he said it was the third man on Press Three 12 or something to that nature. That was it. 13 Q. And did he mention anybody in this conversation 14 by name other than Mr. Shea and Mr. Lampton? 15 A. Oh, he mentioned the foremen's name. 16 Q. Whose name as a foreman did he mention, sir? 17 A. He mentioned Bill McKeown and Jim Popham. 18 Q. What did he say about McKeown and Popham? 19 A. He more or less indicated that they were putting 20 him on the folder and didn't have to. 21 Q. Did you make any suggestions to him about 22 remedies or things that he could do that he had not already 23 done? 24 A. The four or five things that I told him he 25 should do, he said he had already done all of them. 55 1 Q. After that meeting ended, sir -- by the way, how 2 did it end? 3 A. I just told him, "Joe, there's nothing I can do. 4 I'm not working here now," I said, "other than what I told you 5 to do. The main thing is to go back and get the doctor's 6 certificate to say that you can't work." 7 Q. After talking with him, sir, did you mention 8 this to Mr. Cox, the pressroom superintendent? 9 A. No. I don't think I saw Donald when I walked on 10 out. Donald wasn't there, I don't believe. 11 Q. All right. After he left, sir, did he mention 12 to you or say to you anything about what he was going to do 13 next? 14 A. No. Hunh-uh. 15 Q. At that time, sir, am I correct that that's the 16 last time you saw or talked to Joe Wesbecker? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. That's all I have, sir. Thank you. 19 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith. 20 21 EXAMINATION ___________ 22 23 BY_MR._SMITH: __ ___ ______ 24 Q. Mr. Helm, as I understand it, you and Joe 25 Wesbecker worked together and then Joe worked under you for 56 1 16, 17 years? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. Joe Wesbecker during the entire time that he 4 worked with you and for you was a good employee, was he not? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. During that entire 16-year period of time, you 7 never saw Joseph Wesbecker threaten anybody, did you? 8 A. No, I did not. 9 Q. During that entire 16-year period of time, you 10 never saw Joseph Wesbecker commit any acts of violence, did 11 you? 12 A. No. 13 Q. At all times Mr. Wesbecker conducted himself as 14 a good worker? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. A good citizen? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. You and he were friends, in fact, weren't you? 19 A. Well, we weren't real, real close, but as 20 working friends, yes. 21 Q. You didn't see each other socially, but you were 22 friends at work? 23 A. No. That's right. 24 Q. He respected you? 25 A. I hope. 57 1 Q. And you respected him? 2 A. I respected his work abilities and himself. 3 Q. When Joe came to you and told you, when you were 4 the pressroom superintendent, that he was having trouble with 5 the folder, that it was making him nervous, on that first 6 occasion that was something new to you, wasn't it, sir? 7 A. No. We've had several people come in and 8 request to be taken off of the folder. 9 Q. But as far as Joe having problems with the 10 folder, that was something new to you? 11 A. As far as Joe; yes, sir. 12 Q. Because Joe had in fact worked the folder for 13 years prior to this, hadn't he? 14 A. Joe asked me to put him on the folder, if he 15 could work the folder with me; that was his request. 16 Q. You knew Joe could work the folder before he 17 came to you? 18 A. No. Hunh-uh. 19 Q. Had you seen Joe working the folder? You knew 20 he was a good folder operator? 21 A. No. When Joe started there, he didn't work the 22 folder and he ran the reels and he worked on inks. And he 23 came up when I was running the press as a man in charge and 24 said, "Bill, I'd like to learn the folder." 25 Q. And did you teach him how to work the folder? 58 1 A. I would come up and I would help him work the 2 folder, and I told Mike Bocklage that Joe wanted to work the 3 folder. 4 Q. When would this have been? 5 A. I would say the mid '70s, probably. 6 Q. And did Joe progress in learning how to work the 7 folder? 8 A. Joe was a good folder man. 9 Q. He became a good folder man? 10 A. Pretty conscientious. 11 Q. And did he seem -- before he came to you and 12 expressed this nervousness, had he had any problems working 13 the folder before that? 14 A. No. 15 Q. So when Joe came to you and told you in -- what 16 was it, the mid '80s, that he was having problems with the 17 folder, this was something new to you, wasn't it? 18 A. As far as Joe was concerned, yes. 19 Q. And you had for the past several years relied on 20 Joe to operate the folder? 21 A. Well, as a superintendent I relied on him, but 22 the foremans placed him on the folder because I believe he -- 23 Joe worked mostly the five-to-one shift, some one-to-nine. 24 Q. And you knew the foremans had been pleased with 25 Joe's work on the folder? 59 1 A. As far as I know, none of them had complained. 2 Q. Not everybody there in the pressroom could work 3 the folder? 4 A. That's right. 5 Q. Not everybody could do as good a job as Joe did; 6 correct, sir? 7 A. Some could do better and some could do worse. 8 Q. And it was important that someone operate the 9 folder that was competent in operating the folder? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. That was the key position? 12 A. Right. 13 Q. I would assume that when Joe came and told you 14 that the folder was now making him nervous that you recognized 15 as the pressroom superintendent that it was important to have 16 somebody working the folder that was competent to work the 17 folder? 18 A. Yes. You have to have somebody that's 19 competent. 20 Q. And that if Joe, by virtue of him being nervous, 21 was going to have problems with the folder, it would be 22 preferable to you as a pressroom superintendent that a foreman 23 assign somebody else competent to the folder? 24 A. If someone was available. 25 Q. That's right. But that couldn't always be done; 60 1 is that what you're saying? 2 A. Especially on weekends. 3 Q. And did you explain that to Joe? 4 A. Joe knew this. 5 Q. But when Joe came to you and told you that the 6 folder was making him nervous, did you explain to him that you 7 would do what you could do to accommodate him? 8 A. I told him I'd tell the foremans not to put him 9 up there unless it was absolutely necessary. 10 Q. And did you do that, sir? 11 A. Yes, I did. 12 Q. Then when Joe came back on that second occasion 13 and raised complaints about the folder, did you do what you 14 could do to accommodate him on that occasion? 15 A. I went down and told the foremans not to use him 16 unless it was absolutely necessary. 17 Q. After you left Standard Gravure, did you ever 18 have any contact with anybody at Standard Gravure? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. I mean, as far as correspondence or anything of 21 that nature? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. While you were in San Jose, California? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Now, to back up a little bit, this moratorium 61 1 that had caused morale to be low actually began in 1982; is 2 that right? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And that's when the Binghams owned Standard 5 Gravure? 6 A. That's right. 7 Q. And Standard Gravure was, according to the 8 Binghams, having some financial problems in 1982; is that 9 right? 10 A. Correct. 11 Q. And they got together, the Binghams got together 12 with the union and you-all kind of renegotiated the operating 13 strategy there? 14 A. That's right. 15 Q. And the pressmen gave up any type of guaranteed 16 future raise; is that right? 17 A. Yes. Except for the profit sharing. 18 Q. And what was going to be returned was if there 19 was a profit there was going to be a better profit-sharing 20 plan; is that right? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And there was going to be some reduction in work 23 force, but after that reduction in work force occurred then 24 everybody would have some stability in that job? 25 A. Correct. 62 1 Q. They were going to give some people there that 2 had been there a long time early retirement, reduce their work 3 force so the younger pressmen would know that there wouldn't 4 be any threat of any future reduction; is that right? 5 A. Well, really wasn't the older people, because 6 some of the people that worked there only ten years got the 7 buyout. 8 Q. But that was a volunteer thing; they elected to 9 take that. Is that right? 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. So the work force was reduced? 12 A. Right. 13 Q. Then after 1982, apparently this arrangement was 14 not working out and morale was low even when Mr. Shea bought 15 Standard Gravure; is that right? 16 A. Morale was low when Mr. Shea bought. 17 Q. So the mere fact that Mr. Shea purchased 18 Standard Gravure didn't in and of itself cause the drop in 19 morale in the pressroom? 20 A. Not particularly. It might have went down more, 21 but the morale was still bad before that. 22 Q. In fact, wasn't there some hope when Mr. Shea 23 took over Standard Gravure in '86 that maybe Mr. Shea would 24 get in more business, would bring in more business and make 25 the business more profitable and thus get some raises there 63 1 for the pressmen that had been there for four years without 2 any raise? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And that didn't occur, as far as you know? 5 A. No. 6 Q. But that didn't mean, as far as you know, that 7 Mr. Shea hadn't tried to secure more business? 8 A. I would assume he did by some of the meetings. 9 Q. All right. Did Mr. Shea announce that he was 10 going to do what he could to improve the general gross 11 revenues of Standard Gravure? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And that if that occurred he would pass some of 14 that along to the employees who had been for some years 15 without a raise under the Binghams? 16 A. I don't know exactly how it was going to work, 17 but I'm sure they thought the profit sharing would go up. 18 Q. Was it your impression from talking with Mr. 19 Wesbecker in that December '87 or December '86 meeting there 20 at the pressroom, that Joe felt like he needed to be out of 21 the pressroom entirely? 22 A. No. Hunh-uh. 23 Q. The reason I ask that, on Page 73 of your 24 deposition beginning at Line 4, you were asked the question: 25 "Okay. What do you recall about that when Joe came up to 64 1 you?" 2 Your answer was, "Well, he started talking, and 3 I can't remember word for word but he was upset and said that 4 management wasn't treating him right, said that he had been 5 off sick, that he -- and I can't remember exactly, but it 6 seems like there was supposed to be a meeting with Don McCall, 7 Mike Shea and Paula Warman. It seems like he had said 8 something about they were trying to make him pay back some 9 long-term disability or something, that he shouldn't be 10 working the folder, that he was on medication and it was 11 bothering him and he should not be in the pressroom. He said 12 he had been to different people." Do you recall making that 13 statement? 14 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, that's not the 15 complete answer. 16 JUDGE POTTER: Go ahead and finish, Mr. Smith. 17 Q. All right. And you went ahead to say, "I 18 listened to him and I told him, 'Joe, you need to go back to 19 your doctor and get a statement, go talk to Donald Cox with 20 Frazier, who was the president of the union, and go see Pat 21 Lampton.' And there was four or five different things I told 22 him he should do. I listened to him. He talked to me for 23 about 10 or 15 minutes. I told him that there was nothing I 24 could do for him, that he'd have to go, to me, those four or 25 five steps. He says my doctor -- he felt for some reason 65 1 something about that the doctor wouldn't give him an okay to 2 be off because Shea was making him an offer or something. And 3 I said, 'That's not true, Joe. I don't believe Shea has given 4 anybody money to keep you out of here,' I said, 'but if you're 5 sick and you're on medication' I agreed with him he shouldn't 6 be in there. And I was trying to think. He said something 7 else. I know he said that he had done almost everything that 8 I suggested to him and that it wasn't doing any good, and it 9 seemed to me that he was talking about somebody putting him on 10 the folder when he didn't have to be. 11 "I'm trying to think if he said he was going to 12 have to work the folder the next night or something like that 13 and he shouldn't be on the folder, and that was basically the 14 gist of the conversation. I don't know. I don't know. He 15 might have said more or something and I don't recall but that 16 was the thing about the folder." Correct? 17 A. Correct. 18 Q. Reading that entire three- or four-paragraph 19 answer, I couldn't tell whether -- it appears some of the 20 sentences in there like he was on the medication and it was 21 bothering him and he should not be in the pressroom indicated 22 to me that either Joe felt or you felt it would be better for 23 him to not be in the pressroom at all. Do you understand what 24 I'm saying, sir? 25 A. Yeah. Joe gave me the impression that he was on 66 1 medication, that he should not be working in the pressroom. 2 It was Joe's feeling to me that he shouldn't be in there. Joe 3 said, "I shouldn't be in here, I'm on medication." 4 Q. So at that time it was your understanding that 5 he was bothered by being put on the folder, but actually since 6 he was on the medication Joe felt like it might even be 7 dangerous to be in pressroom; is that right? 8 A. Yes. To a certain extent that's right. I don't 9 know the medication or anything about that. He might have 10 been taking aspirins, I'm not for sure. 11 Q. But your understanding is that Joe felt like he 12 shouldn't be in the pressroom? 13 A. It was unsafe for him to be there. 14 Q. Now, you had this conversation, you talked maybe 15 15 minutes, Joe was nervous to some extent and concerned, was 16 he not? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. But in this conversation where he even mentioned 19 names about Warman, McCall, Shea, Popham, and Cox, he didn't 20 threaten any of those people, did he? 21 A. No. 22 Q. He didn't say he was going to go blow their head 23 off, did he? 24 A. No. 25 Q. He didn't threaten the company either generally, 67 1 did he? 2 A. No. 3 Q. He didn't say he was going to take any action 4 against the company, did he? 5 A. No. 6 Q. He didn't mention any plans about any specific 7 acts against the company, did he? 8 A. No. 9 Q. In fact, he was there seeking your advice 10 concerning what he could do about his disability, wasn't he? 11 A. Either that or he was expressing frustration. 12 Q. And you gave him some advice. You said, "Go 13 back to your doctor," didn't you? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Get a statement to get on disability; correct? 16 A. Right. 17 Q. Did you know, Mr. Helm, that that's in fact what 18 occurred? 19 A. No. 20 Q. That he did get put on disability? 21 A. I don't know nothing that happened after I left. 22 Q. Now, the payments of disability, are you sure it 23 was disability or was it something else? 24 A. He said long-term disability is what his words. 25 Q. The reason I ask that is we know he didn't 68 1 actually go on long-term disability until February '89. He 2 was on sick leave from August of '88 to February of '89, then 3 after he used up his sick leave he went on the company's 4 long-term disability plan. I was just wondering if you had 5 any explanations why he would be saying that, since he hadn't 6 even gotten any long-term disability at that point. 7 A. The reason I say I don't think they can make you 8 pay that back is because on long-term disability you pay into 9 part of that out of your paycheck yourself. 10 Q. Okay. He had been paying long-term disability 11 as any employee would be paying for that? 12 A. I believe it's voluntary. I'm not sure if he 13 was paying, but that's what I was going by. 14 Q. You didn't get the impression that Joe had been 15 on long-term disability, had received payments from the 16 long-term disability provisions and then was having to pay 17 that back? 18 A. Yes. That's the impression I got. When he said 19 long-term disability, I referred back to the long-term 20 disability, if you're off sick that long-term disability takes 21 over for you and pays that. 22 Q. But you didn't know that he had been off work 23 for any period of time where LTD would kick in, were you? 24 A. No. 25 Q. So that really doesn't jive with it, does it? 69 1 A. No, not really. 2 Q. Just a couple more questions. Did you ever see 3 Joe Wesbecker with any guns? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Did you ever hear Joe Wesbecker talk about guns 6 or violence of any nature? 7 A. No. 8 Q. During the entire time that you knew him? 9 A. Never. 10 Q. I believe you said that it just wasn't Joe's 11 nature to be dealing with guns and talking about violence. 12 A. I don't think Joe was even a hunter. 13 Q. And it just wasn't his nature to be a violent 14 person, was it? 15 A. Not as far as I was concerned. 16 Q. And you had known him for 16 years? 17 A. Just about. 18 Q. Thank you, Mr. Helm. 19 MR. STOPHER: Just a couple of other questions, 20 Your Honor. 21 22 FURTHER_EXAMINATION _______ ___________ 23 24 BY_MR._STOPHER: __ ___ ________ 25 Q. Mr. Helm, when Mr. Wesbecker first came to you 70 1 and said that he wanted off of the folder when you were still 2 plant or pressroom superintendent, what did he give as the 3 reason, sir? 4 A. He just said he was nervous and couldn't work 5 the folder or didn't want to work the folder. 6 Q. Did he say it was because he was on medication? 7 MR. SMITH: Objection. Leading again, Your 8 Honor. 9 JUDGE POTTER: And it's asked and answered, Mr. 10 Stopher. 11 Q. Mr. Helm, while you were there as pressroom 12 superintendent, was there a rule against guns? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. What was the rule? 15 A. That there was no guns allowed on the premises. 16 Q. That's all I have, sir. Thank you. 17 MR. SMITH: Can I have just one more question, 18 Your Honor? 19 20 FURTHER_EXAMINATION _______ ___________ 21 22 BY_MR._SMITH: __ ___ ______ 23 Q. One question. How long was toluene actually 24 used, Mr. Helm, at the plant, as far as you know? 25 A. I really don't know because I do not know when 71 1 it was instituted. 2 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much, sir. You 3 may step down. You're excused. 4 Mr. Stopher, do you want to call your next 5 witness? 6 MR. STOPHER: Yes, Your Honor. Danny Senters. 7 MS. ZETTLER: May we approach the bench, Your 8 Honor? 9 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 10 MS. ZETTLER: Your Honor, it's just a minor 11 point, but Mr. Stopher is shaking his head, et cetera, in 12 response to answers to questions, like shaking his head yes 13 and shaking his head no, and we ask that he stop doing that. 14 JUDGE POTTER: You mean when he's interrogating? 15 MS. ZETTLER: No. At the table. 16 JUDGE POTTER: All right. Everybody keep a 17 poker face. 18 MR. STOPHER: Sure. 19 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 20 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Sir, would you step up 21 here and raise your right hand, please. 22 23 DANNY PHILLIP SENTERS, after first being duly 24 sworn, was examined and testified as follows: 25 72 1 JUDGE POTTER: Would you walk around, have a 2 seat in the witness box, spell your first and last names and 3 then state it real loud for the jury, please. 4 MR. SENTERS: Danny Senters, D-A-N-N-Y, 5 S-E-N-T-E-R-S. 6 JUDGE POTTER: S-E-N-T-E-R-S. Mr. Senters, if 7 you'll answer Mr. Stopher's questions. Keep your voice up. 8 9 EXAMINATION ___________ 10 11 BY_MR._STOPHER: __ ___ ________ 12 Q. Mr. Senters, where do you live, sir? 13 A. 5211 Mount Blanc in Pleasure Ridge Park. 14 Q. Mr. Senters, I can't hear you. There's a 15 microphone there that you may have covered up with your hand; 16 that's the one that really broadcasts your voice in this room. 17 Would you try that answer again, sir, and we'll see how the 18 sound is? 19 A. 5211 Mount Blanc Road. 20 Q. And is that in Louisville? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. Let me ask you to give us a little more volume, 23 if you would, please, sir. I'm having a little difficulty 24 hearing you. 25 JUDGE POTTER: Keep your voice up, sir. 73 1 Q. Mr. Senters, how old are you, sir? 2 A. Forty-two. 3 Q. And by whom are you presently employed? 4 A. Executive West Hotel. 5 Q. And what sort of work do you do there, sir? 6 A. Assistant supervisor in the purchasing 7 department. 8 Q. Let me ask you one more time to give us a little 9 more umph to your voice, if you would, please, sir. 10 Mr. Senters, have you ever been employed at 11 Standard Gravure? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And when did you first begin working there, sir? 14 A. August of 1973. 15 Q. And when did you stop working there? 16 A. January 1989. 17 Q. And you were there then for about 16 years? 18 A. That's right. I was laid off once in between 19 the starting and ending point. 20 Q. And were you laid off in January of '89? 21 A. That's correct. 22 Q. Was this part of a big layoff or was it just 23 you? 24 A. It was a large layoff, yes. 25 Q. About how many people were laid off in January 74 1 of '89? 2 A. I don't really remember, but it was at least 30 3 or 40. 4 Q. You had been laid off before that? 5 A. One time, yes. 6 Q. And when was that approximately, sir? 7 A. I believe it was January of '85, I think. 8 Q. Now, sir, when you started work at Standard 9 Gravure, what was your job when you first started? 10 A. I was a fly-boy when I started. 11 Q. And I assume that that's in the pressroom? 12 A. That's correct. 13 Q. And how did you progress from there? 14 A. From there I became an apprentice and then a 15 journeyman. 16 Q. And about how long were you a journeyman? 17 A. I guess about six, seven years. 18 Q. In the 1980s, sir? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. Now, sir, you worked there under both the 21 Binghams and under Mr. Shea; correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Were there any differences between the two? 24 A. Yeah. Things were -- to me, anyway, were a lot 25 more relaxed when the Binghams owned it than after Mr. Shea 75 1 purchased it. 2 Q. What was more relaxed under the Binghams? 3 A. Well, up to the last four or five years, job 4 security mostly, just the work atmosphere in general. 5 Q. How was it different under Shea? 6 A. Things were a little more tense. I mean, you 7 didn't know how long he was going to keep it, sell it, 8 whatever. He wasn't -- things weren't quite as relaxed in the 9 work atmosphere. He wanted you doing more, more often. 10 Q. Was there an increase on speed of the presses? 11 A. Yes, there was. 12 Q. What about quality of the product? 13 A. I think it was still pretty good. It may not 14 have been quite as good, because anytime you run a press 15 faster, it's a little hard to hold the register. 16 Q. And when the presses run a little faster, what 17 does that do to the guy who's running the folder? 18 A. Well, the books come through a little faster, so 19 you have to make adjustments faster to make the paster come 20 through. 21 Q. Does it make the job easier or harder? 22 A. A little more difficult. 23 Q. Mr. Senters, back again with regard to Mr. Shea 24 and by comparison to the Binghams, what about the fumes or the 25 atmosphere in the pressroom, was there any difference in that? 76 1 A. Well, yes. When I first came back from my 2 layoff there was quite a difference. I could -- especially in 3 Area Two side up in the pressroom itself, it just kind of 4 knocked you down when you walked in. And I didn't remember 5 them being that bad when I left, and I was only gone for about 6 a year. 7 Q. Was that complained about? 8 A. Yes, it was. 9 Q. And what kinds of complaints were there? 10 A. I don't really know. I mean, we complained, 11 like, to the foremen. I don't know where they went to with 12 it. 13 Q. What sort of problems did the men have, if any, 14 with the fumes? 15 A. Me, personally, I had a lot of headaches a lot 16 worse than what they were before. A friend of mine was 17 ragging up the third-line press one day and he passed out 18 because he had been up there too long. 19 Q. Did Mr. Shea ever improve the fumes in the 20 environment there in the pressroom? 21 A. It did seem to get a little better. 22 Q. Mr. Senters, with regard to the -- to your 23 experience there with Joseph Wesbecker, did you know him, sir? 24 A. Yes, I did. 25 Q. And about when did you first meet him? 77 1 A. I assume I probably met him the first year or 2 two I worked there the first time. 3 Q. And that would be in about '73 or '74? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. What do you recall about him at that time, sir? 6 A. He was -- pretty much seemed happy-go-lucky back 7 then. It seemed like Joe always had a smile on his face. 8 Q. Back in '73, '74? 9 A. Yes. But I didn't know him quite as well then. 10 Q. And was there another time that you worked with 11 him more? 12 A. Yes. The last year or two I was there he ran 13 the same reel I did and he relieved me every morning. 14 Q. You were a reel man the last year or two that 15 you were there? 16 A. About half the time, yeah. 17 Q. And what shift did you work, sir? 18 A. The one-to-nine shift. 19 Q. And then Mr. Wesbecker would come in and relieve 20 you and would work the nine-to-five shift? 21 A. That's right. 22 Q. During that period of time, which I think you 23 said was the last year or two that you worked there? 24 A. That's right. 25 Q. When the shifts would change would you chat with 78 1 him or he with you for a period of time? 2 A. Yes. Usually about 15, 20 minutes. Joe was 3 pretty good about relieving me early. 4 Q. And had he changed in those years from what you 5 had seen in the 1970s? 6 A. Yeah. He was definitely a little more bitter. 7 Q. How was he bitter, sir? 8 A. At the time I was talking to him he was 9 basically trying to get out of there on disability and he felt 10 people were preventing him from doing that. 11 Q. And what did he say was wrong with him or what 12 qualified him for disability? 13 A. Well, he was -- mostly he told me that the 14 folder made him extremely nervous and he couldn't handle that, 15 and at times the reel had the same effect on him when it 16 wasn't running well, just he couldn't handle it. 17 Q. Did he tell you what he had done about that or 18 had tried to do? 19 A. Very little. 20 Q. Didn't give you much information about that? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Did he tell you who was keeping him from getting 23 what he wanted? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Who did he mention? 79 1 A. Well, it varied a lot. Most of the time it was 2 just what the problem was or he was mad at that day, but 3 occasionally he would list a name of a bunch of people, quite 4 a few names, and said if they prevented him from getting out 5 of there that -- I can't remember exactly what his words were, 6 but it was like he would get even. 7 Q. Would the list include the same people every 8 day? 9 A. For the most part. 10 Q. What about for the minor part? 11 A. That changed. Mostly he would always talk about 12 Mr. Shea, McCall, Donald Cox, Bill McKeown, and Paula Warman a 13 little bit. Everything else changed with what shift he worked 14 or who he was mad at or who got on him last. 15 Q. What do you mean "who got on him last"? 16 A. If he was having trouble with a reel or showed 17 up late for web break or something like that. 18 Q. Who would get on him? 19 A. It was usually the man in charge's job to see to 20 it that he did his job. 21 Q. That would be another pressman? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. Did he ever mention some of those people that he 24 was going to get even with? 25 A. I never heard him say too much bad about any 80 1 pressman. It was usually the foreman or superintendent or 2 somebody higher up. 3 Q. Was the list a written or a mental list? 4 A. Most of the time he just said it. One time he 5 did write seven or eight names on a roll of paper and he did 6 circle them. 7 Q. What did he say about those seven or eight 8 names? 9 A. He said those were the people he was going to 10 get even with if he didn't get his disability and get out of 11 there. 12 Q. Whose names were on that list? 13 A. I only remember four names for sure, and that 14 was Mr. Shea, McCall, Kenny Rich, Bill McKeown, and I believe 15 Paula Warman might have been one, but I'm not sure. The other 16 names I don't remember. 17 Q. Shea, McCall, Rich... 18 A. Kenny Rich and Bill McKeown. 19 Q. ...McKeown. And there were other names on there 20 but you don't remember them? 21 A. No. It's just the names of the people that I 22 dealt with daily stuck out. 23 Q. Where did he write this list down, sir? 24 A. It was on a roll of paper that was getting ready 25 to go into the reel. 81 1 Q. In other words, it was a roll of paper that was 2 actually going to be printed on? 3 A. That's right. 4 Q. And when he wrote these names down what did he 5 tell you about them? 6 A. He just said that he felt that they were keeping 7 him from leaving there and that he would -- I can't remember 8 what his exact words, but they were like he would get even if 9 they prevented him from leaving. 10 Q. Did he talk about getting even? 11 A. No. That's just about all he said. He didn't 12 go into any detail about it or anything like that. 13 Q. Did he ever talk about harming people? 14 A. Not really, not to me, or nothing that I took 15 that way anyhow. 16 Q. Did he talk about guns? 17 A. Occasionally. He was -- he would start talking 18 about his gun collection. 19 Q. When did he start talking about guns, sir? 20 A. With me I guess it was summer or spring maybe of 21 1988. 22 Q. What did he tell you about guns? 23 A. I really don't recall too much. It wasn't a 24 subject that I was real interested in. It's kind of one of 25 those things that you listen to but you don't really hear. 82 1 Q. Are you sure, sir, that he never talked to you 2 about harming people with those guns? 3 A. Not that I recall. 4 Q. Do you recall giving your deposition in this 5 case on July 6, 1994, just about four months ago? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. You testified under oath on that occasion; 8 correct, sir? 9 A. Yes, I did. 10 Q. Let me refer you to Page 22, Line 24: "Did he 11 ever talk about harming anyone with his guns? 12 "Answer: Oh, yes." 13 Do you recall giving that answer under oath? 14 A. Yes, I do. 15 Q. Next question: "Oh, he did. What kind of 16 things did he say, sir? 17 "Answer: Not always with guns. He was always 18 talking about how he was going to get even with them, and 19 occasionally he even showed me a list once that had seven or 20 eight names on it." 21 Did he talk about harming people with guns on 22 occasions, sir? 23 A. Well, yes, but nothing I really took serious. 24 Q. What did he say, whether you took it seriously 25 or not, about harming people with guns? 83 1 A. I really can't remember exactly. It's just been 2 too long ago. 3 Q. How many times did he talk about harming people 4 with guns? 5 A. Just maybe two or three times. 6 Q. Who was present? 7 A. I believe I was and maybe one of the folder men 8 might have been, I don't know, the one that was off the folder 9 for the last half hour. 10 Q. Did he say he wanted to shoot somebody? 11 A. No. It was more just like, you know, talking 12 about blowing somebody away. Nothing any different that I 13 hadn't heard some other pressmen say at one time or another. 14 Q. Talking about blowing somebody away? 15 A. Yeah. More or less. 16 Q. Who was he talking about blowing away? 17 A. I really don't recall a specific name or what 18 the conversation -- I just vaguely remember it. 19 Q. Did he say at that time that he had guns? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Did he tell you what kind of guns he had? 22 A. He probably did. Like I said, I wasn't into 23 guns too much and I didn't really pay a lot of attention. 24 Q. What sorts of things would he tell you about 25 guns? 84 1 A. Well, I believe he was telling me about getting 2 in what he ordered, that type of thing, what they were and I 3 guess how they worked. 4 Q. Did you ever tell anybody that he had talked 5 about blowing somebody away with a gun or with guns? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Did you ever tell it to Kenny Fentress? 8 A. I don't think so. I may have. I really don't 9 remember. I didn't take it serious. 10 Q. Why didn't you take it seriously, sir? 11 A. I had heard it before. 12 Q. From him? 13 A. Him and other people, too. 14 Q. How long had you been hearing it from him? 15 A. Probably just that last year I worked there; 16 that's probably the time I had the most contact with him. 17 Q. And how often during that last year did you hear 18 him say that he was either going to get even with somebody or 19 that he was going to blow them away? 20 A. Get even, he said quite often. 21 Q. Would that be as often as once a day? 22 A. No. Probably maybe three times a week; three, 23 four, something like that. 24 Q. Did you report that to anybody, sir? 25 A. No. 85 1 MR. SMITH: Objection. Asked and answered, Your 2 Honor. 3 JUDGE POTTER: Overruled. 4 Q. You can go ahead and answer, sir. 5 A. No. I might have mentioned it in casual 6 conversation with somebody, but I never took it to the office 7 or anything like that. 8 Q. There was a manager of security there, wasn't 9 there, sir? 10 A. I believe so. 11 Q. Do you know who it was? 12 A. No, I don't. 13 Q. Did Mr. Wesbecker ever talk about the union? 14 A. Once in a while he would say something to the 15 effect that the union wasn't much help to him any more so than 16 the company. 17 Q. What did he say that the union wasn't any help 18 to him about? 19 A. He wanted more help from them on getting out on 20 disability. 21 Q. And what union was that, sir? 22 A. The pressman's union. 23 Q. Is that the union that all the pressmen belonged 24 to? 25 A. Yes, it was. 86 1 Q. Did he ever mention to you, sir, the name of 2 Rodger Coffey? 3 A. I don't know. 4 Q. Did he ever tell you that he had had some 5 problems with him? 6 A. I don't think so. I think they worked two 7 different shifts. Rodger usually worked the one-to-nine and 8 Joe worked day work. 9 Q. Was there ever an incident in which he talked 10 about Mr. Stucker? 11 A. Once or twice, but it was just generally things 12 that people said about the man in charge on a press. 13 Q. Was there ever an incident where he was upset 14 with Mr. Stucker over inks? 15 A. One time that I recall. Joe was supposed to be 16 taking care of the inks, and two of the reservoirs emptied and 17 there was no inks going to the units at all because he hadn't 18 checked them for a while. 19 Q. And what happened? 20 A. Joe got on him, told him he had to be up there, 21 every hour he was supposed to be checking them, and if he 22 wasn't going to do it he could just go on home. 23 Q. Was Joe Wesbecker man in charge or the second 24 man in charge? 25 A. No. Joe was the ink man. He was just watching 87 1 the inks. 2 Q. Mr. Senters, you had known Joe Wesbecker since 3 the early '70s or mid '70s; right? 4 A. Right. 5 Q. Did you notice changes in the way he acted 6 around the plant between that time and the time of the late 7 '80s when you left? 8 A. Well, I know the last year I was there he was a 9 lot more anxious than he used to be. If he was having 10 problems with the reel, getting pasters through, and the shift 11 before and the shift after wasn't, he would get real anxious 12 about it. 13 Q. And when he'd get anxious, what would he do? 14 A. Mostly he paced around a lot. 15 Q. Where would he pace? 16 A. Right there around the reel area back and forth 17 to the side where the buttons were. 18 Q. How long would he pace? 19 A. It was just like five or ten minutes before the 20 paster would come up. 21 Q. Did you ever see him get edgy or nervous, sir? 22 A. No, not really. 23 Q. Was this pacing something that you had seen back 24 in the early '70s? 25 A. I really can't say because I didn't work much 88 1 with him back in the early '70s. We worked different shifts 2 most of the time. 3 Q. Mr. Senters, were there some days that he was 4 more worked up than others when you'd come on the shift? 5 A. To some extent, I guess, yes. 6 Q. Some days were different in his attitude than 7 other days; is that right? 8 A. Some were, yeah. Most of the time he was pretty 9 much the same. 10 Q. What was he like on the days when he was worked 11 up? 12 A. Well, I never really saw him like you said 13 worked up. Like I said, he'd just come on the shift most of 14 the time when I got there. He might be a little edgier if he 15 had had a bad day before with the reel the day before. He 16 wondered if -- he was wondering if he was going to get the 17 pasters through. 18 Q. Did you ever see him when there was smoke or 19 steam coming out of his ears? 20 MR. SMITH: Objection. Leading, Your Honor. 21 JUDGE POTTER: Sustained. 22 Q. On the days when he was worked up, what did you 23 notice about him? 24 MR. SMITH: Objection. Leading, Your Honor. 25 JUDGE POTTER: Overruled. 89 1 A. He would obviously be angry when he got angry, 2 but other than that... 3 Q. Well, let me ask you if you remember giving this 4 testimony, sir, Page 56 of your deposition, Line 13. Question 5 by Mr. Dobiesz: "Okay. Well, I'm trying to do as best -- I 6 mean, I know a lot of time has gone by, but I'm wondering from 7 your frame of reference at the time how seriously you took it. 8 And I've heard you say before that you understood that he was 9 kind of blowing off stress or just, you know, he kept saying 10 it and after a while you just kind of got numb to it. 11 "Answer: Some days he was more worked up than 12 others, and you took it -- wondered a little bit more. Other 13 days it was just kind of rattling on about it. But sometimes 14 he'd get worked up as he talked about it and you could just 15 kind of see the steam coming out of his ears." Did you give 16 that testimony, sir? 17 A. Yes. That was more about his getting even, 18 though, than -- not anything to do with what was going on at 19 work that particular day. 20 Q. That was about getting even, wasn't it? 21 A. Yeah. 22 Q. And when he was talking about getting even, he 23 could get worked up and the steam would be coming out of his 24 ears? 25 MR. SMITH: Objection. Leading. We would 90 1 instruct Counsel to quit leading the Witness. 2 JUDGE POTTER: I'll sustain the objections as 3 they come along. 4 Q. When he would get worked up what would it be 5 about? 6 A. It would usually be about Shea or McCall or the 7 company. 8 Q. Did he ever tell you precisely about how he was 9 going to get even with the company? 10 A. No, not really. 11 Q. What do you mean "not really," sir? 12 A. He never really specified what "get even" was. 13 It was more, you know, get even. 14 Q. Did that attitude of his ever change before he 15 left or before you left, sir? 16 A. No, not really. 17 Q. That's all I have, sir. Thank you. 18 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith. 19 20 EXAMINATION ___________ 21 22 BY_MR._SMITH: __ ___ ______ 23 Q. Mr. Senters, did Joe Wesbecker ever talk about 24 getting even with Angela Bowman? 25 A. Not to my knowledge. 91 1 Q. John Stein? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Sharon Needy? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Mike Campbell? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Lloyd White? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Gordon Scherer? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Paul Gnadinger? 12 A. No. 13 Q. These people that he shot were his friends, 14 weren't they? 15 A. Yes. I think most of them were. 16 Q. He never expressed any threats against them, did 17 he? 18 A. No. It was usually against the company, very 19 seldom against any employees. 20 Q. Do I understand it that Joe's problem as 21 expressed to you was that somebody in management was keeping 22 him from leaving? 23 A. That's true. Yes. 24 Q. That he wanted on long-term disability and he 25 couldn't get on long-term disability at the time? 92 1 A. That's right. 2 Q. And that he wanted to get out of the pressroom 3 situation? 4 A. That's right. 5 Q. And his frustration was directed not toward the 6 plaintiffs in this case but toward his inability to get his 7 long-term disability? 8 A. That's right. It was toward the company, more 9 or less. 10 Q. Well, do you know that he did in fact get 11 long-term disability? 12 A. I knew he got out. I assumed it was LTD. 13 Q. Did you assume that when Joe Wesbecker left 14 Standard Gravure that he had gotten what he wanted? 15 A. Yes, I did. 16 Q. That's all we have. Thank you, Mr. Senters. 17 18 FURTHER_EXAMINATION _______ ___________ 19 20 BY_MR._STOPHER: __ ___ _______ 21 Q. Mr. Senters, just one other question, sir. Did 22 Mr. Wesbecker claim that he should have been out on disability 23 at the time you worked with him; correct? 24 A. That's right. 25 Q. And did he claim that he should have been out on 93 1 disability years before that? 2 MR. SMITH: Objection. Leading, Your Honor. 3 JUDGE POTTER: Sustained. 4 Q. How long had he been complaining about that? 5 A. About a year, that I know of. 6 Q. Thank you, sir. 7 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much, sir. You 8 may step down; you're excused. 9 Ladies and gentlemen, we'll take the morning 10 recess. As I mentioned to you-all before, do not permit 11 anyone to speak to or communicate with you on any topic 12 connected with this trial. Do not discuss it among yourselves 13 and do not form or express any opinions about it. We'll take 14 a 15-minute recess. 15 (RECESS) 16 SHERIFF CECIL: The jury is now entering. All 17 rise. All jurors are present. Court is back in session. 18 JUDGE POTTER: Please be seated. 19 Mr. Stopher, do you want to call your next 20 witness. 21 MR. STOPHER: Rodger Coffey, Your Honor. 22 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Sir, would you step around 23 here and raise your right hand, please. 24 25 94 1 RODGER COFFEY, after first being duly sworn, was 2 examined and testified as follows: 3 4 JUDGE POTTER: Please have a seat -- walk around 5 and have a seat there in the jury box (sic). Would you state 6 your name loud and clearly for the jury, please, and spell 7 your first and last names. 8 MR. COFFEY: My name is Rodger Coffey, 9 R-O-D-G-E-R, C-O-F-F-E-Y. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Keep your voice up and answer 11 Mr. Stopher's questions. 12 13 EXAMINATION ___________ 14 15 BY_MR._STOPHER: __ ___ _______ 16 Q. Mr. Coffey, where do you presently live, sir? 17 A. In Valley Station. 18 Q. And how old are you, sir? 19 A. Forty-seven. 20 Q. And by whom are you employed? 21 A. Stone Container. 22 Q. Mr. Coffey, let me ask you, if you would, 23 please, sir, to lean forward or get a little bit closer to 24 that brown microphone that's there on the table. 25 A. Okay. 95 1 Q. There. That's much better, sir. All right. 2 Mr. Coffey, are you originally from the Louisville area? 3 A. I'm originally from Glasgow. 4 Q. And did you go to school in Glasgow or here in 5 Louisville? 6 A. No. I come to school here. 7 Q. All right. And after you got out of high 8 school, sir, what did you do? 9 A. I went to work for Standard Gravure. 10 Q. About what year was that, sir? 11 A. 1965. 12 Q. And how long did you work there, sir? 13 A. Twenty-seven years. 14 Q. So if my math is right, '92? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. 1992? 17 A. When they went out of business. 18 Q. The last day you worked there was February 4, 19 1992; is that right? 20 A. That's correct. 21 Q. That's the day that Mike Shea shut it down? 22 A. Right. 23 Q. Mr. Coffey, during that period of time from '65 24 to '92, did you work primarily in the pressroom, sir? 25 A. I did. 96 1 Q. Were you a journeyman pressman? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. And was there a particular area or a particular 4 shift or a particular job that you worked? 5 A. I worked mostly Area Two pressroom, five-third 6 line. 7 Q. And did you have a particular job there? 8 A. I was first or second man in charge usually on 9 the five-third line. 10 Q. You usually worked the folder? 11 A. Correct. 12 Q. All right, sir. And were you ever a foreman, 13 sir? 14 A. Yes, I was. 15 Q. Were you a foreman for a while and then not for 16 a while or how did that work? 17 A. No. I was foreman about a year and a half, two 18 years before they went out of business. 19 Q. I've heard the term, acting foreman. Is that a 20 term that you're familiar with, sir? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. Is that something different than foreman? 23 A. That's when you work on the floor and then if 24 somebody takes a vacation or an off day then you go in and 25 work in the office as an acting foreman. 97 1 Q. So it's kind of what I might refer to as a 2 substitute teacher, that sort of thing? 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. Okay. Now, sir, were you ever an acting 5 foreman? 6 A. No, sir. 7 Q. All right. During, if I understand correctly, 8 '65 to approximately 1990, most of that time you were either a 9 fly-boy, an apprentice, or most of it was a journeyman 10 pressman? 11 A. Correct. 12 Q. All right, sir. Were you a member of the union, 13 sir? 14 A. Yes, I was. 15 Q. And what union was that? 16 A. Local 19. 17 Q. Were all the pressmen a member of Local 19? 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. Now, sir, as a result of having worked there for 20 27 years, did you know Joe Wesbecker? 21 A. I did. 22 Q. When do you think you first came to know him, 23 approximately, sir? 24 A. I would say he came there in the '70s, but 25 whenever he came. You know, I don't know the dates, but from 98 1 the time he come there. 2 Q. And you met him then shortly after he started to 3 work at Standard? 4 A. Correct. 5 Q. You hadn't known him before? 6 A. No, sir. 7 Q. When he worked there in the 1970s, sir, did you 8 work with him? 9 A. I worked with him on occasion. He generally 10 worked the five-to-one shift and I worked the one-to-nine. 11 Q. On a few occasions in the '70s, you might be on 12 the same crew with him? 13 A. Correct. 14 Q. And on the same shift, obviously? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. But most of the time not, I take it from what 17 you're saying? 18 A. Right. I didn't generally work with him. 19 Q. What was he like, sir, during the 1970s? 20 A. He was a ha-ha kind of guy, always telling 21 stories, happy-go-lucky, you know, easygoing guy. 22 Q. Did you know him during the 1980s, sir? 23 A. Correct. 24 Q. Did you work with him more or less during the 25 1980s? 99 1 A. I never worked with him that much at any time. 2 Probably about the same both. 3 Q. About the same? 4 A. Correct. 5 Q. Did you see him change at all, sir? 6 A. Yes, I did. 7 Q. When did you first start noticing the changes? 8 A. When he got a divorce from his first wife he 9 started -- you could see his personality change a little bit. 10 Q. And how did it change? 11 A. He didn't seem to be as happy-go-lucky-type guy 12 anymore. He was the sort of guy that he wanted to talk about 13 his ex-wife and how he wanted to do -- you know, just mess 14 over her and take her to court all the time and just hassle 15 her. It seemed like he had some vendetta against his wife and 16 he just strived to get her the best he could. 17 Q. Was that the way he had been in the '70s? 18 A. No. No. He had changed when he went through 19 the divorce. His personality just changed altogether. 20 Q. Other than wanting to get his first wife, and I 21 think you said mess her over? 22 A. Right. 23 Q. What else did you notice about his attitude or 24 his personality or the changes in him in the 1980s? 25 A. Well, he used to talk about he wanted to make a 100 1 lot of money, how he invested his money. And then there at 2 the end after he went through this divorce he got compelled to 3 get even with his wife. I don't know who jilted who there, 4 but to get even with his wife. And it seemed like his 5 conversations were never the same. He wasn't the ha-ha-type 6 guy that he always had been. 7 Q. What was he like if he wasn't like that? 8 A. He got down -- he didn't want to work certain 9 places in the pressroom, certain positions. He didn't want to 10 work certain presses. He didn't want to work on the folder. 11 He just -- you know, he complained a lot, complained about his 12 wife. It got to where you didn't really want to be around him 13 that much. 14 Q. Why didn't you want to be around him, sir? 15 A. You just don't want to hear that day in and day 16 out, a negative attitude, and it wasn't something you really 17 wanted to hear. He just rambled on about his wife and just 18 different things that you just didn't really want to -- that 19 didn't concern you. 20 Q. You mentioned that he didn't want to work 21 certain presses? 22 A. Right. 23 Q. Is that something different than not wanting to 24 work the folder? 25 A. Correct. There's different crews and different 101 1 presses and there's folders on all the presses. 2 Q. And what was it about certain presses that he 3 didn't want to work on? 4 A. Well, I guess it was the people, more than 5 likely. He probably wanted to work with certain people. He 6 just didn't want to work all of a sudden, from wanting to work 7 the folder in the '70s to not wanting to work the folder at 8 all there at the last. 9 Q. Were there certain people that he didn't want to 10 work with? 11 A. He never gave me names of certain people that he 12 didn't want to work with, but I presume that would sort of 13 sway you from where you want to work, you know. 14 Q. Did he ever tell you why he didn't want to work 15 with certain people? 16 A. No. He never told me why. 17 Q. Did he get off of the folder? 18 A. Yes, sir; he did. He quit working the folder. 19 Q. When did he quit working it, sir? 20 A. Timewise, I don't know. I'd say it was in the 21 '80s, there the latter part. He just didn't say -- he said he 22 didn't want anything to do with the folder. He felt it 23 bothered him and he didn't want to work it. 24 Q. Did he tell you or did you see how it bothered 25 him? 102 1 A. No. The folder bothers everybody to an extent 2 because you want to run the best you can and you get in a bind 3 sometimes, but he didn't seem like it bothered him any worse 4 there at the last, but he said it was bad on his nerves. And 5 he went to the doctor and he didn't want to work the folder, 6 and the doctor said he didn't have to work the folder. 7 Q. Did Standard Gravure accept that? 8 A. Tell you the truth, I won't speak for Standard 9 Gravure. I think they probably tried to do it the best they 10 could. There was times they still had to work him on the 11 folder. 12 Q. How did he react to that? 13 A. Very negative. I can remember one occasion when 14 they hung the list up, the foreman hung the sheet up on the 15 door that told you where you were working at that shift, and 16 he was on the folder and Joe just went into a negative thing; 17 he wasn't going to work it, you couldn't make him do it. But 18 it wasn't to the foreman, it was to whoever was standing 19 outside the door. So I said something to the foreman if he 20 could get Joe off the folder he ought to take him off the 21 folders, and he did that. 22 Q. Who was that foreman, sir? 23 A. Art Smithers. 24 Q. Was there ever a time, sir, when you called 25 him -- let's see. I guess were you ever an officer in the 103 1 union, sir? 2 A. Yes, sir; I was. I was a union steward. 3 Q. And about when was that, sir? 4 A. Different periods. I was union steward in the 5 '70s and different times in the '80s. 6 Q. All right. So it was here and there through the 7 two decades that we're talking about? 8 A. Correct. Correct. Correct. 9 Q. All right, sir. Was there ever a time that you 10 had to call Mr. Wesbecker and ask him to come in and work? 11 MS. ZETTLER: Objection. Leading. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Overruled. 13 Q. What's the answer, sir? 14 A. Yes, sir. I called him on one occasion where I 15 was forcing people to work over. So I knew Joe worked a lot 16 of overtime, so I was going to call his house and see if he 17 would volunteer to work for somebody. I did that. His 18 wife -- a woman answered the phone, and I asked to speak to 19 Joe. This was probably around 7:00 in the morning or a little 20 after, give or take. And when he got on the phone I asked him 21 if he wanted to work and he was sort of cold, he wasn't very 22 friendly. But he didn't want to work so that was the end of 23 that. 24 So that night when I was in bed asleep he called 25 my house about every half hour or 45 minutes and would tell my 104 1 wife, he said, "This is Joe Wesbecker, and when Rodger gets up 2 you tell him that I've called. And I'm going to call you 3 every half hour from now till he gets up." She said, "Do you 4 want me to get him up?" And he just said, "No. I just want 5 you to let him know if he can call me at my house then I can 6 call him at his." 7 When I got up, she asked me if I knew him and I 8 went to work. And I got with Joe out on the back dock where 9 we ran in together. I left a little early and we had a 10 discussion. And he was going to call my house a lot. He 11 just -- what had happened, he said that he didn't go home that 12 night and he had told his wife that he had been working, and 13 here I called his house and messed him up. So he was very 14 upset for that, but he didn't call my house anymore. 15 Q. Did you ever hear him talk about getting even? 16 A. No, sir. 17 Q. Did you ever see him get even? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Was he a vindictive sort of a person? 20 A. I didn't think so until he went through the 21 divorce, then it seemed like he was -- with his wife he was 22 very vindictive. 23 Q. And you noticed that after the divorce from his 24 first wife; is that right, sir? 25 A. Correct. Correct. 105 1 Q. Prior to that, you hadn't seen that side? 2 A. No, sir; I hadn't. 3 Q. Mr. Coffey, did you ever hear him talk about 4 guns? 5 A. Yes, sir. At the end, I'd say the last year or 6 so before he left, he seemed like he got compelled with guns. 7 He'd tell you the -- it seemed like the big gun for him was a 8 nine-millimeter automatic, and he'd want to tell you the 9 muzzle velocity of a nine-millimeter automatic and how many 10 rounds it would hold, stuff he never told you about in the 11 past. Or an AK-47, how many rounds will go into an AK-47, how 12 many foot pounds it would hit you with if it hit you certain 13 so many feet, just stuff that we had never heard Joe talk 14 about. 15 Q. He was talking about how many foot pounds of 16 force a weapon would have if it hit a human being? 17 A. Correct. 18 MS. ZETTLER: Objection, leading, Your Honor. 19 JUDGE POTTER: It's leading, Mr. Stopher. 20 Q. How did he know that kind of thing, sir? 21 A. I presumed he read it. I don't know. 22 Q. Did he ever say why he wanted to know what the 23 effect of a bullet would be on a human being? 24 A. No, sir. 25 MS. ZETTLER: Objection, leading. 106 1 JUDGE POTTER: Overruled. 2 Q. I'm sorry. The answer, sir? 3 A. No, sir. 4 Q. Did he talk about this once or twice or how 5 often did he talk about it? 6 A. He talked about guns a lot. He just seemed -- 7 like I say, earlier -- when I'd known him earlier he talked 8 about things that was funny, and then later up in the '80s he 9 got to talking there at the very end about guns and things 10 that, you know, you didn't put -- I hunt, and he just -- he 11 wasn't a hunter and he didn't want to hear anything about it, 12 but there at the last, guns was a big thing for him. 13 Q. Was he a hunter at the last? 14 A. No, sir; not to my knowledge. 15 Q. Did he ever say why he had this interest in the 16 nine-millimeter or the AK-47? 17 A. No, sir. 18 Q. At the last, sir, did he ever -- was he popular 19 at Standard Gravure at the last? 20 A. No. I don't think anybody really cared to get 21 around him. I didn't care to get around him because he was so 22 negative. I was just -- he complained about everything, just, 23 you didn't want to sit around and listen to it all the time. 24 Q. Was there anybody there at the last, sir, that 25 was a friend of his that would be around him? 107 1 MS. ZETTLER: Objection. Calls for speculation. 2 JUDGE POTTER: Overruled. 3 A. I don't really know, sir. I mean, I don't know. 4 I didn't work with him that much to know if he had good 5 friends. 6 Q. Did you ever hear Mr. Wesbecker talk about a 7 fight or about some confrontation? 8 A. There was supposedly a confrontation between him 9 and -- 10 MS. ZETTLER: Objection, hearsay. 11 JUDGE POTTER: Sustained. 12 Q. Did he ever talk with you about a fight? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Did he have any nicknames? 15 A. Yes, he did. 16 Q. What were his nicknames? 17 A. Well, they called him Rocky. He was nicknamed 18 Rocky. 19 Q. Do you know why he was called Rocky? 20 MS. ZETTLER: Objection, -- 21 JUDGE POTTER: Overruled. 22 MS. ZETTLER: -- hearsay. 23 JUDGE POTTER: Overruled. 24 A. He was supposed to have had a fight with the 25 newsman, Jim Mitchell, at the Media Mix. We leased the old 108 1 YMCA downtown. Supposedly he and Jim Mitchell had a fight in 2 the lounge. How big a fight or whatever, I don't know. But, 3 anyway, some of the guys had broken it up and they nicknamed 4 him Rocky. 5 Q. Did you ever hear Joe Wesbecker talk about 6 chemicals at Standard Gravure? 7 A. Toluene. 8 MS. ZETTLER: Your Honor, can I be heard on 9 this? 10 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 11 MS. ZETTLER: This is more than cumulative at 12 this point, Judge. We're going to object to it as cumulative. 13 MR. STOPHER: It's not cumulative at this point 14 because this man has testified that Joe Wesbecker told him 15 that he believed that toluene was consuming his brain cells 16 and was tearing up his nervous system. 17 JUDGE POTTER: You know, I think he's allowed to 18 take this guy over some of the territory that may have been 19 covered by other witnesses. Objection is overruled. 20 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 21 Q. Let me give you the question again, sir. Did 22 you ever hear Mr. Wesbecker talk about chemicals at work? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. And what chemical did he talk about or 25 chemicals? 109 1 A. The chemical he talked about was a chemical 2 called toluene. 3 Q. What did he have to say about toluene? 4 A. He said that he had found out that it was bad 5 for your health, your central nervous system, and it would 6 just mess you up big time, and he was going to try to get it 7 taken out of the plant. 8 Q. Did he tell you how he was going to try to go 9 about doing that? 10 A. He collected -- supposedly had gotten a lot of 11 data from the government on the chemical, toluene. He took it 12 to a doctor, Doctor Beanblossom, and showed it to him and come 13 back and told me because my doctor was the same doctor as his. 14 He come back and said that toluene was very bad, and he was 15 getting everything together and he was going to take it up and 16 show them it was hurting our health. 17 Q. Did he, Joe Wesbecker, claim that it had hurt 18 his health in some way? 19 A. No, sir. I don't think he said it had hurt him; 20 he said it could hurt us all. 21 Q. Did you ever hear him talk about mental illness, 22 sir? 23 A. No, sir. 24 Q. Did you ever hear him talk about people in 25 authority at Standard Gravure? 110 1 A. There at the last. I think he didn't like 2 anybody in authority, whether it be a supervisor or a folder 3 man on the folder. He didn't like anybody to tell him 4 something to do. He just didn't like any -- I don't think he 5 liked anybody in authority there at the last. 6 Q. What about people that weren't in authority? 7 A. Well, he would go around and talk -- 8 MS. ZETTLER: Objection, Your Honor. 9 JUDGE POTTER: Overruled. 10 A. He would go around and talk to people. Like I 11 say, I don't think very many people talked to him that much. 12 Q. Did he think that the people that wouldn't talk 13 to him very much, that they were with him or against him? 14 JUDGE POTTER: Sustained. 15 MS. ZETTLER: Calls for speculation. 16 Q. Mr. Coffey, did he ever talk about people being 17 against him? 18 A. He did, the company being against him. 19 Q. Did he ever talk about everyone being against 20 him? 21 A. No. I don't think everyone was against him. 22 Q. Let me ask you, sir, if you didn't testify in 23 this case by deposition on March 4, 1993, under oath? 24 A. Correct. 25 Q. Do you remember that, sir? 111 1 A. I remember. 2 Q. Let me direct your attention, sir, to the 3 questions and answers on Page 44, Line 17: "Did you ever hear 4 him talk about his fear or concerns that everybody was against 5 him, including the men in the pressroom? 6 "Answer: Well, there at the last, you know, he 7 thought everybody was against him. He just -- I don't know if 8 he didn't trust people or he just got such a negative outlook 9 on everything as a whole, that the company was out to get him 10 and he didn't want to work with this person or whatever, you 11 know. He just -- he was sort of a negative -- from a 12 happy-go-lucky guy to a negative person. I don't remember him 13 ever stating certain people's names, but he just didn't like 14 to do certain jobs anymore because this bothered him, and he 15 didn't want to work on this press because that bothered him 16 and something bothered him all the time, but other than that, 17 that..." Is that accurate testimony, sir? 18 A. Yes, sir. And I've said that here. 19 Q. Mr. Coffey, did you ever hear Mr. Wesbecker in 20 addition to talking about types of guns and the amount of 21 force that they would generate, did you ever hear him talk 22 about the clips on weapons? 23 A. Banana clips on an AK-47. The only two weapons 24 I heard him talk about was a nine-millimeter magnum, he would 25 tell you he could get an overextended clip to hold I don't 112 1 know how many rounds, hold more than normal; how many rounds 2 would go into an AK-47, and that you could tape them together 3 and have double the ammunition in them. 4 Q. You could tape them together? 5 A. That's what he said. 6 Q. Mr. Coffey, did you ever hear Mr. Wesbecker make 7 any direct threats against Standard Gravure or the people that 8 worked there? 9 A. No, sir. 10 Q. That's all I have, sir. Thank you. 11 JUDGE POTTER: Ms. Zettler? 12 13 EXAMINATION ___________ 14 15 BY_MS._ZETTLER: __ ___ ________ 16 Q. Good morning, Mr. Coffey. Do you know when Mr. 17 Joseph Wesbecker or if Joseph Wesbecker in fact purchased an 18 AK-47? 19 A. No, ma'am. 20 Q. If he did, you don't know when he purchased it? 21 A. No, ma'am. 22 Q. Could have been when he was on disability? 23 A. Yes, ma'am. 24 Q. Could have been before? 25 A. Correct. 113 1 Q. Mr. Coffey, did you know that Sue Chesser has 2 testified at this trial that Joe Wesbecker always gave his -- 3 MR. STOPHER: Objection to characterizing 4 somebody else's testimony, Your Honor. 5 JUDGE POTTER: Overruled. 6 Q. Do you know that Sue Chesser testified at this 7 trial that Joseph Wesbecker always paid his child support? 8 A. No, ma'am. 9 MR. STOPHER: Same objection, Your Honor. 10 JUDGE POTTER: It's irrelevant. Objection 11 sustained. 12 MR. SMITH: Object to it being irrelevant. 13 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith, Ms. Zettler is 14 handling the Witness. 15 Go ahead. 16 MR. SMITH: I apologize, Your Honor. 17 Q. Did you know that Ms. Chesser had testified that 18 they had become very good friends? 19 A. No, ma'am. 20 MR. STOPHER: Same objection. 21 JUDGE POTTER: Well, let me see you-all up here. 22 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 23 JUDGE POTTER: I really do think it's irrelevant 24 that he knows what she's testified earlier in the trial. 25 MS. ZETTLER: He's been allowed to speculate as 114 1 to what was causing problems early on in 1980, so I think we 2 have a right to speculate as to whether these existed. 3 JUDGE POTTER: You can ask him would he be 4 surprised that the wife came and said they got along fine, but 5 it is irrelevant whether he knows what was testified earlier 6 or not. 7 MS. ZETTLER: Okay. 8 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 9 Q. Would you be surprised if Sue Chesser testified 10 that her and Joe had become very good friends after the 11 divorce? 12 A. Yes, it would, because they hadn't been earlier. 13 Q. Would you be surprised if she testified that 14 over the years her and Joe kind of joined forces to deal with 15 their son's, Jimmy's, problems? 16 A. It would be a surprise. 17 Q. Was there a point in time where Mr. Wesbecker 18 stopped talking about his divorce proceedings with Mrs. 19 Chesser? 20 A. Correct. 21 Q. Can you tell us when that was? 22 A. Gee, I don't know. You know, it just seemed 23 like he went through a period after the divorce or during the 24 divorce that he was that way and then it just quit, you know. 25 Q. Do you know that he, in fact, got remarried? 115 1 A. I thought so, yes. 2 Q. Have you ever talked with anybody else who's 3 gone through a divorce, Mr. Coffey? 4 A. Yes, I have. 5 Q. And sometimes it can get pretty bitter, can't 6 it? 7 A. Yes, ma'am. 8 Q. I believe you testified earlier that the folder 9 bothered a lot of people at the plant; is that correct? 10 A. The folder bothered probably everybody at the 11 plant. 12 Q. A lot of people didn't like working on it 13 because it made them nervous? 14 A. Yes, ma'am. 15 Q. And a lot of people didn't like the noise 16 involved; correct? 17 A. Probably, yes. 18 Q. And there were times when almost everybody at 19 some point or another came and asked for a break in working on 20 the folder; correct? 21 A. Yes, ma'am. 22 Q. You also testified earlier, I believe, that one 23 time when you saw Mr. Wesbecker's name on the list working the 24 folder and he got upset, you talked to Mr. Smithers; correct? 25 A. Correct. 116 1 Q. And Mr. Smithers agreed to take him off or not 2 make him work the folder; correct? 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. Do you recall any conversations with Mr. Cox 5 regarding Mr. Wesbecker's working on the folder? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Do you recall ever hearing Mr. Cox saying that 8 he was going to make Mr. Wesbecker work on the folder 9 regardless of whether or not he wanted to? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Is it your impression that Mr. Wesbecker was 12 trying to solve the toluene problem at the plant for 13 everybody's sake and not just his own? 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. And, in fact, he was in contact with a doctor 16 named Beanblossom who was also your doctor; correct? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. And he convinced Doctor Beanblossom that toluene 19 might actually be a problem at the plant; correct? 20 A. To my understanding, that's correct. 21 Q. Do you believe that Joe Wesbecker was 22 instrumental in getting the toluene level reduced at the 23 plant? 24 A. I don't have any idea, honestly. 25 Q. You didn't see that as something that Joe was 117 1 doing just for himself; correct? 2 A. No. 3 Q. He was concerned about everyone? 4 A. Correct. 5 Q. And he wasn't the only one that was concerned 6 about the toluene level; right? 7 A. No. We all were concerned about the toluene. 8 Q. You've never heard Joe Wesbecker threaten 9 anybody, have you? 10 A. No, ma'am. 11 Q. You've never heard him talk about hurting 12 anybody with a gun, ever? 13 A. No, ma'am. 14 Q. The time that Mr. Wesbecker was calling you, you 15 said four or five times at one evening, do you remember 16 testifying about that? 17 A. Yes, ma'am. 18 Q. You talked to Mr. Wesbecker and he never called 19 you again; correct? 20 A. That's correct. 21 Q. He never threatened you at that period of time, 22 did he? 23 A. No. 24 Q. He never said he was going to get you or 25 anything like that? 118 1 A. No. He told me if I can call him he can call 2 me, but other than that, he didn't threaten me, no, ma'am. 3 Q. He backed down pretty quick when you confronted 4 him, didn't he? 5 A. Yes, ma'am. 6 Q. And he never called you again? 7 A. No, ma'am. 8 Q. You've never seen Joe Wesbecker lose control, 9 have you? 10 A. No, ma'am. 11 Q. You never saw him hit anything in anger, did 12 you? 13 A. No, ma'am. 14 Q. Even these times when he would get frustrated, 15 like the time you told us about with the folder and Art 16 Smithers, he didn't hit anybody or hit anything, did he? 17 A. No, ma'am. 18 Q. He just got real frustrated and nervous? 19 A. He just got real vocal. 20 Q. Vocal about it? You never heard Mr. Wesbecker 21 threaten any of the management, did you? 22 A. No, ma'am. 23 Q. That's all I have. 24 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much, sir. You 25 may step down; you're excused. 119 1 Mr. Stopher, do you want to call your next 2 witness? 3 MR. STOPHER: Yes, Judge. George McMillin. 4 JUDGE POTTER: Sir, could I get you to step 5 around over here and raise your right hand, please. 6 7 GEORGE McMILLIN, after first being duly sworn, 8 was examined and testified as follows: 9 10 JUDGE POTTER: Would you have a seat up here in 11 the witness box? Have a seat, sir. And would you say your 12 name loud and clearly for me. 13 MR. McMILLAN: George McMillin. 14 JUDGE POTTER: And would you spell it for me, 15 sir. 16 MR. McMILLIN: M-c-M-I-L-L-I-N. 17 JUDGE POTTER: Keep your voice up and answer Mr. 18 Stopher's questions; he's the gentleman right there. 19 20 EXAMINATION ___________ 21 22 BY_MR._STOPHER: __ ___ _______ 23 Q. Mr. McMillin, where do you live, sir? 24 A. 4310 Fluhr Drive. 25 Q. Did you say Fluhr? 120 1 A. Fluhr, yeah. 2 Q. And is that here in Louisville, sir? 3 A. Louisville. 4 Q. All right. How old are you, sir? 5 A. I'm 65. 6 Q. Are you employed now, sir? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Are you retired? 9 A. I'm retired. 10 Q. And what did you retire from? 11 A. Standard Gravure. 12 Q. And about when did you retire, sir? 13 A. November '84. 14 Q. And had you worked for Standard Gravure prior to 15 that, sir? 16 A. For 37 years. 17 Q. And when did you begin? 18 A. May 13, l948. 19 Q. And during that period of time, sir, did you 20 work in the pressroom? 21 A. Pressroom. 22 Q. During that period of time did you know Joseph 23 Wesbecker? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. Did you work with him, sir? 121 1 A. Very rare did I work with him. 2 Q. After you retired, sir, did you sometimes go 3 back to Standard Gravure or see some of the guys that you had 4 been working with? 5 A. I would go up there about two or three times a 6 week. 7 Q. And when you went back to Standard Gravure, what 8 sorts of things would you do? 9 A. I'd go up there and talk to the guys on the 10 shift. 11 Q. Would you sometimes go to lunch or go to dinner 12 with them? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And where would you sometimes go? 15 A. The Headline across the street. 16 Q. Did you ever go to Hall's restaurant with a 17 group of them? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Now, sir, you told me that you didn't work that 20 often with Joe Wesbecker while you were still active there. 21 Did I understand correctly? 22 A. Correct. 23 Q. Did you sometimes go to lunch or dinner with him 24 at restaurants, along with other guys? 25 MS. ZETTLER: Objection. Leading. 122 1 JUDGE POTTER: Overruled. 2 A. We would run across one another at the Ideal Bar 3 over there. 4 Q. The Ideal Bar? 5 A. Yeah. 6 Q. And did you ever hear Joe Wesbecker talk about 7 guns? 8 A. Yes, I have. 9 Q. And where would you be when he would talk about 10 guns? 11 A. Usually it was at Hall's. 12 Q. At Hall's? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. That's a restaurant? 15 A. That's a restaurant. 16 Q. And was this after you had retired, sir, or 17 before? 18 A. I think it was after I retired. 19 Q. What do you remember about what he said about 20 guns when you were at Hall's restaurant? 21 A. At the time, he was into this paint, paint 22 stuff, you know, and then he was bringing them books in. 23 Q. What kind of books was he bringing in? 24 A. Ammunition and gun books. 25 Q. Did he ever talk about guns or weapons that he 123 1 owned? 2 A. No, he didn't. 3 Q. Did he ever show you any guns or weapons that he 4 owned? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Did he talk about this more than once or was it 7 only once? 8 A. No. He talked about it more frequently. 9 Q. Did he just talk to you about it? 10 A. No. There was Al Kinberger and there was a 11 friend that he -- up there. I think his name was Vern that 12 that paint -- had him target practice, that paint and that. 13 And him and them two is the one that really got into it, 14 talking about the guns and all that. 15 Q. Did you ever hear him talk about a bomb? 16 A. The only time I heard him, he was talking about 17 building an airplane, a model plane and flying it over and 18 bombing Standard Gravure. 19 Q. Where did this conversation happen, sir? 20 A. At Hall's cafe. 21 Q. And who was present? 22 A. Me and Al Kinberger. 23 Q. And who is Al Kinberger, sir? 24 A. He works at Standard Gravure, too. 25 Q. Was he a pressman? 124 1 A. He's a pressman. 2 Q. Was he a foreman or -- 3 A. No. He was just a regular pressman. 4 Q. Journeyman pressman? 5 A. Journeyman pressman. 6 Q. How did Mr. Wesbecker bring this up? How did he 7 happen to mention this about an airplane and a bomb? 8 A. He just got up there talking. He was drinking, 9 and that's how he brought it up, just out of the blue. 10 Q. Just out of the blue? 11 A. Out of the blue, yes. 12 Q. Did he say why he wanted to bomb Standard 13 Gravure? 14 A. Only thing he said he was having trouble with 15 Shea and McCall. 16 Q. Did he say what kind of trouble? 17 A. No, he didn't. 18 Q. What was said after he said that he wanted to do 19 that? 20 MS. ZETTLER: Objection, Your Honor. Vague, 21 leading. 22 JUDGE POTTER: Overruled. 23 A. We said that -- we just laughed it off as a joke 24 and he started laughing, too, with us, and he just dropped the 25 subject. 125 1 Q. Didn't he say that the plan wouldn't work and 2 that maybe I've got to plan something else? 3 MS. ZETTLER: Objection. 4 JUDGE POTTER: Overruled. 5 A. He said that, yes. 6 Q. Pardon me? 7 A. He said that. 8 Q. He did say that? 9 A. He said, "Maybe this plan won't work. I've got 10 to plan something else because this wouldn't do enough 11 destruction and that." 12 Q. The bomb wouldn't do enough destruction? 13 A. Yeah. Yeah. 14 Q. And you and Mr. Kinberger then just laughed it 15 off? 16 A. Laughed it off. 17 Q. Did either one of you think about reporting that 18 to Mr. Shea or Mr. McCall or anybody at Standard Gravure? 19 A. No, we didn't. 20 Q. Did you discuss with Mr. Kinberger whether that 21 should be reported? 22 A. We just thought he was joking. 23 Q. Who did you tell it was a joke? 24 A. Me and Al. 25 Q. Just told each other that it must be a joke? 126 1 A. Just thought it was a joke. 2 Q. Did you ever tell this to any other pressmen? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Did you ever hear anybody else discuss this bomb 5 and bombing the plant and the other plan? 6 A. No. 7 Q. In that conversation, did he ever mention what 8 the other plan would be? 9 A. He never did say he -- really get into that. 10 Q. Did you ever hear him talk, sir, about any 11 particular foreman at Standard Gravure? 12 A. Yes, I did. 13 Q. Who did you hear him talk about? 14 A. He didn't like Mr. McKeown and Mr. Popham. 15 Q. Did he ever say why, sir? 16 A. Said that they was making him run the press and 17 he didn't want to run it. 18 Q. Did you ever hear him talk about Mr. -- did you 19 ever hear him talk about his nerves? 20 A. A couple times he said he was taking medication 21 and that was it. 22 Q. Did you ever hear him talk about Mr. Shea or 23 Mr. McCall? 24 A. Not really. 25 Q. Didn't he tell you that he hated them, sir? 127 1 A. Later on he did, yes. 2 MS. ZETTLER: Objection, leading. 3 JUDGE POTTER: It is leading, Mr. Stopher. 4 Q. When did he talk about them? 5 A. He was off sick and they tried to make him come 6 back to work. He was under psychiatric care. 7 Q. He was off work? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Where did you see him when he was off work, sir? 10 A. He come up there every now and then. 11 Q. Came up to Standard Gravure? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Came up where? 14 A. Hall's. 15 Q. After he was off work? 16 A. Yeah. 17 Q. What did he say about Mr. Shea or Mr. McCall? 18 A. He said they was trying to force him into coming 19 back to work, and if he didn't come back to work that they was 20 going to take his compensation away from him. 21 Q. What did he say about how he felt about that? 22 A. Well, he didn't like it. 23 Q. Did he ever have any nicknames, sir? 24 A. Well, we called him Rocky. 25 Q. Did you call him that, sir? 128 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. Do you know why he had the nickname Rocky? 3 A. He used to go around and punch box -- shadowbox 4 and that. 5 Q. He used to go around shadowboxing and punching? 6 A. Yeah. 7 Q. Did he get teased from time to time, sir? 8 A. Did he what? 9 MS. ZETTLER: Objection. Leading. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Overruled. 11 Q. Did he get teased from time to time? 12 A. Well, I wasn't with him that much, so... 13 Q. Well, did you have any information that he would 14 get teased? 15 A. I've heard people say that, yes. 16 Q. Did you have any information as to who teased 17 him? 18 MS. ZETTLER: Objection. 19 JUDGE POTTER: Sustained. 20 That's all right, sir. You don't have to answer 21 it unless you were there and heard it. If you were there, 22 sir, and saw it, tell us about it. If not... 23 MR. McMILLIN: Well, I wasn't there. 24 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher will give you another 25 question, or maybe he won't. 129 1 Q. Did you ever hear him complain about being 2 teased? 3 A. Yes, I did. 4 Q. What did he tell you about it, sir? 5 A. He said when he worked over on one-to-nine that 6 there was two men over there that was always riding him. 7 Q. Did he tell you who they were? 8 A. Yes, he did. 9 Q. Who were they? 10 A. They was Fentress and Barger. 11 Q. Did he tell you what they would tease him about? 12 A. No, he didn't really get into that, I mean, but 13 Fentress and Barger, they would tease everybody. I mean, that 14 was just their nature. They liked to ride people. If they 15 thought they could get your goat they would ride you. 16 Q. And did they get Joe Wesbecker's goat? 17 A. Your goat. Get on your nerves. 18 Q. Did he complain about that to you, sir? 19 A. Yes, he did. 20 Q. Mr. McMillin, when, approximately, was the last 21 time that you saw Joe Wesbecker? 22 A. It was probably in '89. 23 Q. And was that one of these occasions when you saw 24 him at Hall's restaurant? 25 A. Yes. 130 1 Q. And is that when some of these conversations 2 occurred that you've just told us about? 3 A. Yes. 4 MS. ZETTLER: Objection. 5 Q. That's all I have, sir. 6 JUDGE POTTER: Ms. Zettler. 7 8 EXAMINATION ___________ 9 10 BY_MS._ZETTLER: __ ___ _______ 11 Q. Good morning, Mr. McMillin. My name is Nancy 12 Zettler, and I'm one of the lawyers for the Plaintiffs. Okay? 13 I have a couple questions for you, too. 14 A. Okay. 15 Q. Mr. McMillin, didn't you testify in your 16 deposition that Mr. Wesbecker rarely came up to Hall's and 17 when he did he only had one beer and went home? 18 A. He drank one or two beers and then he would 19 leave. 20 Q. And he really didn't say much when he was there; 21 correct? 22 A. He just talked and say what he wanted to say and 23 then he'd leave. 24 Q. But he wasn't there very much and he didn't say 25 much when he was there? 131 1 A. Just what he had to say and then... 2 Q. And you didn't work with him very much, did you? 3 A. No. 4 Q. And you wouldn't really see him when you went to 5 visit people at Standard Gravure, would you? 6 A. Oh, I'd see him. 7 Q. A couple times here and there? 8 A. Yeah. 9 Q. Mr. McMillin, did you tell Mr. Stopher's 10 associate when you gave your deposition that you had retired 11 in 1984 because you had a stroke? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And did you also tell Mr. Stopher's associate 14 that your stroke kind of caused your memory to go and come 15 sometimes? 16 A. Right. 17 Q. What do you do during the day generally, sir? 18 A. I sit around the house. 19 Q. Okay. Was it kind of exciting back in 1989 when 20 this whole thing happened? 21 A. No. 22 Q. It was scary; right? 23 A. Yeah. 24 Q. A lot of people that you knew were down there; 25 correct? 132 1 A. Right. 2 Q. And a lot of them were your friends? 3 A. A lot of them was my friends, yes. 4 Q. Did you talk to a lot of people after this 5 happened? 6 A. Not really, no. 7 Q. You didn't talk to your friends down at Standard 8 Gravure? 9 A. Yes. I talked to them. 10 Q. And you talked about the shooting; right? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And you kept up with the newspapers and the 13 things that were on TV? 14 A. I read and watched it on TV and that, yes. 15 Q. Joe never threatened Mr. McKeown to you, did he? 16 A. What? 17 Q. Mr. Wesbecker never made any threats about 18 Mr. McKeown to you, did he? 19 A. No. 20 Q. He never made threats about Mr. McCall to you, 21 did he? 22 A. Not really. 23 Q. He never made any threats about Paula Warman to 24 you, did he? 25 A. He didn't like Paula on account of she had 133 1 turned him down, told him he had to come back to work. 2 Q. But he never threatened her to you, did he? 3 A. Not that I know of. 4 Q. As far as Mr. Fentress and Mr. Barger are 5 concerned, did you ever see them tease Mr. Wesbecker? 6 A. I did. 7 Q. You did? When? 8 A. When I went down there a couple times. I've 9 seen them do it. 10 Q. When you went down there, generally Mr. 11 Wesbecker wasn't there, was he? 12 A. Yes, he was. 13 Q. When you went down to Standard Gravure? 14 A. Yeah. 15 MS. ZETTLER: May I approach, Judge? 16 JUDGE POTTER: Sure. 17 Q. Do you remember giving your deposition, 18 Mr. McMillin? 19 A. What? 20 Q. Do you remember giving your deposition? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Okay. Page 82, do you remember when you gave 23 your deposition that somebody from Mr. Stopher's office was 24 there and there were a couple of other people there? 25 A. Yes. 134 1 Q. And there was a lady like this sitting there and 2 taking everything down? Do you remember give -- or hearing 3 these questions and giving these answers: "What time would 4 you generally go to Standard Gravure?" 5 MR. STOPHER: What line? 6 MS. ZETTLER: 15. 7 "What time would you generally go to Standard 8 Gravure? 9 "Answer: In the morning about eight or nine 10 o'clock where I could see the night shift and the day shift." 11 Right? 12 A. Okay. But I also would go around 11, 12 o'clock 13 at night. 14 Q. Let's finish this first. "I see. Would you see 15 Joe Wesbecker at that time when you went over there? 16 "Answer: Usually he wouldn't be there because 17 he worked five to one." Correct? 18 A. Right. 19 Q. Okay. You went down to Standard Gravure mostly 20 in the morning so you could see people from both shifts, 21 though; correct? 22 A. Yeah. But I went at 11 and 12 o'clock at night 23 before we would go to Hall's. 24 Q. Would the people at Standard Gravure just let 25 you hang out there with everybody? 135 1 A. I'd go in with for an hour or so, yes. 2 Q. You'd go in and say hi and take off, maybe go 3 across the street to Hall's; correct? 4 A. It would be about a mile or two away. 5 Q. Maybe go over to Hall's with maybe some of the 6 guys; right? 7 A. Yeah. 8 Q. Thank you very much. 9 JUDGE POTTER: You may step down. You're 10 excused. Thank you very much. 11 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, may we approach the 12 bench for a minute? 13 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 14 MR. STOPHER: These are going faster than I 15 anticipated, and sometimes I get it right and sometimes I get 16 it wrong. I've got three scheduled for this afternoon, 17 Mr. Cox and Mr. Frazier and Mr. West. They have an objection 18 to Mr. Frazier testifying, but these were all the witnesses 19 that I have lined up for this morning and I'll have more 20 tomorrow. Sometimes it's just fast. 21 JUDGE POTTER: All right. 22 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 23 JUDGE POTTER: Ladies and gentlemen, as you may 24 have figured from things that may have happened before, 25 sometimes things go faster than you planned. They hadn't 136 1 planned on needing more witnesses than that for this morning, 2 so we'll take the lunch recess kind of early. 3 As I mentioned to you-all before, do not permit 4 anybody to speak to or communicate with you on any topic 5 connected with this trial; do not discuss it among yourselves 6 and do not form or express any opinions about it. I have a 7 commitment at 1:00, so you-all get a little extra time. We'll 8 stand in recess till 1:30. Yes? 9 JUROR HIGGS: Can I speak to you and the lawyers 10 just for a second? 11 JUDGE POTTER: Certainly, sir. 12 (ALL OTHER JURORS EXCUSED; BENCH DISCUSSION) 13 JUROR HIGGS: I know it's hard to time frame 14 everything the way the case is going. If there was any way 15 that you-all could let me know when we might be in the last 16 week of the testimony or, you know, towards the end of the 17 trial so -- because of my job. 18 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Thank you very much. 19 (JUROR HIGGS EXCUSED; BENCH DISCUSSION 20 CONTINUES) 21 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher, Mr. Higgs brings up 22 a problem. I was going to go over two things with you-all at 23 lunch, one was the length of the trial because I've dealt with 24 the Court of Appeals to have this through November. 25 Obviously, if the Plaintiffs get a verdict we'll go beyond 137 1 that, but what I need to know is your best estimate because I 2 may have to deal with them, you know, if you think we're going 3 to run into December. You don't have to tell me right now. 4 MR. STOPHER: Like I'm saying today, sometimes 5 it's hard to predict. I want to get as much done here this 6 week as I can get done with this group of witnesses. If you 7 can give me the luxury of answering this question on Thursday? 8 JUDGE POTTER: All right. Try to get an 9 estimate. 10 Are we going to do depositions? And then we've 11 got to talk about what's his name, Mr. Frazier. We'll take 12 care of that back here. 13 MR. SMITH: You want to do that now? 14 JUDGE POTTER: Yeah. We'll do it back here. 15 (HEARING IN CHAMBERS) 16 JUDGE POTTER: All right. What are your plans 17 for this afternoon, Mr. Stopher? 18 MR. STOPHER: Judge, I've got Don Cox, who was 19 the pressroom superintendent; Don Frazier, who was the union 20 president; and Danny West, who was a pressman. 21 JUDGE POTTER: And you-all object to them 22 calling Mr. Frazier because they had given you a list that 23 said he was not going to be here today; is that right? 24 MS. ZETTLER: We said yesterday we would like 25 some idea of what's coming up the next day. Look how many 138 1 people are on there, I mean. 2 JUDGE POTTER: Tell me why you object to Mr. 3 Frazier. 4 MS. ZETTLER: We were assuming he was going to 5 do the first list first. 6 MR. SMITH: He's designated first and second, 7 and they've got -- 8 MS. ZETTLER: And they've got a third list now. 9 JUDGE POTTER: I don't know that I can put my 10 finger on any exact incident or anything, but I do feel that 11 the Plaintiffs were extremely accommodating in trying to 12 advise you of who their witnesses -- and maybe I've just 13 misread some signals in here or whatever, but I do think -- I 14 do have the feeling that you-all have not been as 15 accommodating with them somehow. It seems like every time 16 they ask you, you know, who are you going to call tomorrow 17 it's, "Well, I haven't made up my mind. I'll fax it to you 18 tonight." And I don't know that there's any one thing, but 19 there were two things on my list to talk about at lunch, and 20 one of them was the length of the trial because we'll need the 21 courtroom, and the other one was to be more accommodating with 22 them on who you're planning to call. 23 Ms. Zettler, you were looking at List Number 24 One; is that right? 25 MS. ZETTLER: Right, Judge. Between the two of 139 1 us, Paul and I, we've gone through all of these people and 2 read their depositions. 3 JUDGE POTTER: And the green and the yellow 4 lines? 5 MR. STOPHER: I did that. I think that was the 6 people that have testified, Judge. 7 MS. ZETTLER: And Mr. McMillin just testified, 8 too. 9 JUDGE POTTER: Can you go round up some off the 10 first list and finish out the afternoon? 11 MR. STOPHER: The reason that I wanted to do Mr. 12 Frazier is that he's going on vacation next week and cannot be 13 here next week. 14 JUDGE POTTER: You can get him tomorrow. 15 MR. STOPHER: All right. I don't think I can 16 get -- I've tried to get -- Mr. Lucas is unavailable today and 17 had made arrangements to be here tomorrow. 18 JUDGE POTTER: So tomorrow you've got Lucas and 19 Frazier? 20 MR. STOPHER: Yes, sir. Let me give you the 21 exact list as to who I've got tomorrow. Lucas, and I'll put 22 in Frazier, Griffin, Metten, Miller, Stover, S-T-O-V-E-R, and 23 Chastain. 24 MS. ZETTLER: Would you read that again? 25 MR. STOPHER: Lucas, Frazier, Griffin, Metten, 140 1 Miller, Stover and Chastain. 2 MR. SMITH: Are any of those on the first list? 3 MR. STOPHER: They're on the third list. 4 MR. SMITH: What about the first and second? 5 JUDGE POTTER: I don't have a third list. 6 MR. STOPHER: I didn't bring it in here, Judge. 7 MS. ZETTLER: I've got one, hold on. No. 8 They're not on the third list; they're on the second list. 9 MR. STOPHER: Some of them are. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Well, it's not so much the lists; 11 it's that they try and keep you informed. You-all, I thought, 12 were very good about that, these are the four people we're 13 going to call, but if we don't get this one we're going to put 14 that in, and you kept them very informed. And I'm just going 15 to ask that the Defendants do the same thing. 16 MR. STOPHER: Judge, on Thursday, which I know 17 is just a half a day, I plan to call Throneberry, Sowders, 18 Charlie Bryan and representatives from South Central Bell and 19 the water company. Those will both take about five minutes. 20 MS. ZETTLER: Representatives, who? 21 MR. STOPHER: South Central Bell and -- 22 MS. ZETTLER: But who? 23 MR. STOPHER: They've been deposed, I just 24 forget their names, just... I'll give you the name. 25 MR. SMITH: Is there documents that can -- that 141 1 we can agree to that would be sufficient? 2 MR. STOPHER: Probably take more time to put in 3 the documents than it would to hear them testify. It will 4 probably take two minutes. 5 JUDGE POTTER: This is the thing that was turned 6 off on such and such a day, whose name it was in? That gets 7 us through the week. Mr. Frazier is tomorrow. Is there 8 anybody on the first list that you think you want to call -- 9 and if they're people you've decided you're not going to call, 10 let us know and then -- let me see the first list. 11 MR. STOPHER: She has the first list. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Is there anybody on the first 13 list that you're planning to call that you think you could get 14 down here today? Is Don Cox a fairly big one? 15 MR. STOPHER: Yes, sir; he is. And Mr. West I 16 think will be short. I will expect that we'll probably be 17 done by 3:30, 4:00 today. 18 JUDGE POTTER: We've got a deposition, at least 19 one that we went over this morning and we'll get another one 20 done at lunch, so that will help you fill up this afternoon. 21 MR. STOPHER: All right. That will be fine. 22 JUDGE POTTER: Is that okay? They'll get four 23 more done this afternoon. 24 Let me just tell you my thought on leading 25 questions because it has come up. And maybe I'm wrong, but 142 1 I'm always of the opinion that when you change topics or start 2 into something, you're allowed a quasi-leading question to 3 direct the person to a topic: "Did anything strange happen on 4 the afternoon of March 14th" or "Did you ever have any 5 conversations with this person about killing ducks" or 6 whatever it happens to be. You just can't come up and start 7 with "Tell me about your life." So provided it's not super 8 leading, I allow them a fairly leading question to get the guy 9 over in the right ballpark: "Did you ever meet him up at 10 Hall's." Because I assume both of you know the answers to 80 11 percent of the questions, unless you've got a stroke victim. 12 Okay. The rest of you can go. Whoever is going 13 to do depositions, I have to do something at one, I have to 14 finish up by then. Could you-all get me a copy of that other 15 list? 16 MS. ZETTLER: Are you going to call anybody else 17 from that first list, Ed? 18 MR. STOPHER: Coffey's testified. Cox will. 19 Croft is the guy that I submitted his deposition that has the 20 heart problem. 21 JUDGE POTTER: He's either going to testify or 22 get a better letter. 23 MR. STOPHER: Gosling and Helm have testified. 24 Kidd, I'm not going to call; I think it's cumulative. 25 Knauer, K-N-A-U-E-R, I don't think I'm going to call. Lucas 143 1 will testify. McMillin just did. Noonan came down here 2 yesterday and I couldn't get him on because the juror got 3 sick, Judge, and he drove all the way from Covington so I sent 4 him back, and I hated to make him come back again today. So I 5 may not call him at all. Let me see how much of a problem it 6 is for him and I'll let you know, but I think probably not. 7 Popham has already testified; Rich, I don't think so. Senters 8 just testified, Stover and West -- I'll probably just use 9 West. I think Stover is somewhat duplicative. 10 MS. ZETTLER: Isn't he on tomorrow's list? 11 MR. STOPHER: Yes, he is. I may -- I guess I'll 12 go ahead and do it. If I think it's duplicative after Mr. 13 West testifies today, I'll strike him. 14 MS. ZETTLER: Will you let us know by the end of 15 the day so we don't have to prepare for him tomorrow then? 16 MR. STOPHER: Yes. 17 (RECESS; HEARING IN CHAMBERS 18 ON DEPOSITION OBJECTIONS) 19 JUDGE POTTER: Where were we? 20 MR. MYERS: I have your notes from Kannapel, 21 Judge. You did not give me your notes from Keilman; I think 22 you kept those. 23 MS. ZETTLER: I guess the question is what were 24 your rulings on 45 through 49. 25 JUDGE POTTER: Well, they were different. 45 144 1 through 46 were sustained. 2 MS. ZETTLER: And then I withdrew 47, 48 and 49. 3 MR. MYERS: Then I have a note that says Page 4 45, Line 23 through Page 47 is all out. 5 JUDGE POTTER: I'm just looking at my notes. I 6 can't tell what I did. That's right. 46 comes out because I 7 sustained the objections to the earlier ones, the second 46. 8 MS. ZETTLER: What you said comes out, Judge, 9 is -- well, I have you sustained the hearsay objection on 45, 10 that was 16 through 22, and then also you left in a couple of 11 questions and then you say here I've got -- my note here says 12 from Line 23 on 45 through 47 all comes out, and I withdrew 13 47, 48 and 49. 14 MR. MYERS: And of course 46 comes out, too. 15 MS. ZETTLER: Right. Wait. 16 MR. MYERS: I think that's right. The Judge 17 took out 45, Line 23, through 47. There's nothing to read for 18 completeness on 46, so we're on Page 50. 19 JUDGE POTTER: And though you only objected to 20 some of it, I took out all of 46 because it didn't make any 21 sense. So we're at Page 50; is that right? 22 MR. MYERS: Yes, sir. 23 MS. ZETTLER: This goes along with -- 24 JUDGE POTTER: I'm going to overrule the 25 objection, but that's another one you can read as 145 1 cross-examination. 2 MR. MYERS: That's 50 and 51 because it spills 3 over. 4 MS. ZETTLER: I think that's the hearsay stuff 5 that you took out about Soldier of Fortune and all that. 6 MR. MYERS: Then you can either read it or not. 7 JUDGE POTTER: 50 and 51 you can read. That's 8 your cleanup? 9 MS. ZETTLER: Right. 10 JUDGE POTTER: 52. 11 MR. MYERS: Judge, do you mind if I come around? 12 I don't mean to loom. 13 JUDGE POTTER: That's all right. Loom. 14 MR. MYERS: I'm familiar with these but not so 15 much as the Lilly people. 16 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. What I'm going to do with 17 52 through 56, she objects to everything, and what I'm going 18 to do is let you read from -- it's not the happiest thing, but 19 from Page 54, Line -- so I guess what I'm doing, I'm 20 sustaining the objections except Page 54, Line 13, through the 21 end. 22 MR. MYERS: So you're sustaining through Page 23 54, Line 12, and then we can start reading on Page 54, Line 13 24 through the end? 25 JUDGE POTTER: Yes. Because what I've done is 146 1 I've cut out all the introductory stuff. It isn't very happy, 2 but the question is what do you recall about it, but then he 3 kind of explains what's going on. 4 MR. MYERS: So 52 through 54, Line 12 is 5 sustained, and starting at Line 13 on Page 54 we can read? 6 JUDGE POTTER: Uh-huh. 7 MS. ZETTLER: And that goes through Page 56, 8 Line 21? 9 JUDGE POTTER: Line 21, uh-huh. Let's look at 10 63. This is where he's buying his car. I'll sustain 63, so 11 you have to read a few extra lines. 12 MR. MYERS: Judge, I don't think we have any 13 designations after that. If this is of any help, the rest of 14 these are read-for-completeness, I think -- I don't think 15 there's any other... 16 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Let me take a look and see 17 what the deal is. The 77 through 80, are all overruled but, 18 you know, if you want to pick it up at the end and read it 19 like it's cross-examination you can. 20 MR. MYERS: All right, sir. 21 JUDGE POTTER: That will give us a little 22 something this afternoon. And we've got a full -- 23 MR. MYERS: I think we've got a full plate the 24 next couple days. 25 MS. ZETTLER: Are we going to read any more 147 1 depositions this week? 2 MR. MYERS: Not if we call all those people that 3 are on those lists. 4 (LUNCH RECESS) 5 SHERIFF CECIL: The jury is now entering. All 6 jurors are present. Court is back in session. 7 JUDGE POTTER: Please be seated. Mr. Stopher, 8 do you want to call your next witness. 9 MR. STOPHER: Thank you, Judge. Donald Cox. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Ladies and gentlemen, I will tell 11 you that the delay in getting started this afternoon goes in 12 my column. You kind of plan things and they take a lot longer 13 than you think you are, and the Jefferson Circuit Court has a 14 tradition and it's one we have to do that we still go ahead 15 and schedule a normal docket even when you're trying a -- we 16 have to schedule things long ahead, and so you -- when you 17 have a case, you don't block out two weeks or three months or 18 whatever it happens to be, or two days, you schedule other 19 things. And so I've been trying sort of early in the morning 20 and on lunch breaks and things to kind of do the little-bitty 21 things that can be done, and so that's why I appreciate the 22 hour and a half at lunch as much as you-all do. 23 Sir, will you raise your right hand, please. 24 25 148 1 DONALD COX, after first being duly sworn, was 2 examined and testified as follows: 3 4 JUDGE POTTER: Would you walk around and have a 5 seat in the jury box there. State your first and last names 6 loudly and then spell them for me, please. 7 MR. COX: Name is Donald Cox, D-O-N-A-L-D, 8 C-O-X. 9 JUDGE POTTER: And answer Mr. Stopher's 10 questions. 11 12 EXAMINATION ___________ 13 14 BY_MR._STOPHER: __ ___ _______ 15 Q. Mr. Cox, would you tell us where you live, sir? 16 A. 6425 Nottoway Circle in Louisville. 17 Q. Is that the same Nottoway Circle that Joseph 18 Wesbecker lived on, sir? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. I believe his address was 7300 Nottoway Circle? 21 A. I'm not sure about that. 22 Q. About how far would his home have been from your 23 home, sir? 24 A. Oh, about a block and a half or two blocks, 25 maybe a five- or six-minute walk. 149 1 Q. Mr. Cox, how old are you, sir? 2 A. Fifty-four. 3 Q. And by whom are you employed, sir? 4 A. Stone Container Corporation. 5 Q. And prior to working for Stone Container 6 Corporation by whom were you employed? 7 A. Standard Gravure. 8 Q. When did you begin working at Standard Gravure, 9 sir? 10 A. Well, actually I started at Standard in 1960. I 11 worked for the Bingham companies a couple of years prior to 12 that in another position. 13 Q. Were you with The Courier-Journal prior to that? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. So you started there about '58? 16 A. 1958. 17 Q. And then transferred, I guess is the right word, 18 to Standard in about '60? 19 A. Yes. Yes. 20 Q. All right. How long, sir, did you work at 21 Standard Gravure? 22 A. Well, from 1960 until it shut down in 1992. 23 Q. They shut the plant on February 4, I believe it 24 was, 1992? 25 A. Yes. That's correct. 150 1 Q. And that was the last day you worked there? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And you've been with Stone Container Corporation 4 since then? 5 A. Yes. I started the next day. 6 Q. Mr. Cox, when you started at Standard Gravure 7 were you already a pressman from having worked at The Courier? 8 A. No. I started at -- so-called at the bottom of 9 the ladder. I started as a fly-boy. 10 Q. When you went with Standard? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And then did you work your way up as an 13 apprentice to become a journeyman pressman? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And after you became a journeyman pressman, sir, 16 what titles or positions did you hold with Standard Gravure? 17 A. Well, I was a journeyman and then a second man 18 in charge and first man in charge on the press crews. 19 Q. All right. Did you ever hold any other titles? 20 A. As a journeyman? 21 Q. No, sir; at Standard. 22 A. Well, I was assistant pressroom foreman, I was 23 pressroom foreman, night plant superintendent and then 24 pressroom superintendent and for a short period of time as a 25 bindery superintendent. 151 1 Q. About when, sir, were you the pressroom 2 superintendent? 3 A. From about sometime in '84, approximately, until 4 the plant closed in February of '92, except for a brief period 5 when I was bindery superintendent, about seven or eight 6 months. 7 Q. All right, sir. In other words, all during the 8 late 1980s, at least, you were pressroom superintendent? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. I think I understand, sir, that at some short 11 period of time there or relatively short period of time, you 12 and Mr. William Helm, or Bill Helm, were both pressroom 13 superintendents? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. You would have been in one area pressroom and he 16 would have been in the other area pressroom? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. And then I think he retired or moved on and you 19 became pressroom superintendent in the whole plant? 20 A. That's correct. 21 Q. Is that a fair statement, sir? 22 A. That's true. 23 Q. And after approximately 1986, I take it that you 24 were pressroom superintendent in the whole plant? 25 A. That's correct. 152 1 Q. Mr. Cox, would you tell us just briefly what the 2 hierarchy is in the pressroom beginning at your level as 3 pressroom superintendent and then who reported to you and then 4 who reported to that group? 5 A. Well, as pressroom superintendent I was 6 basically the pressroom manager, that is, I hired the people 7 and I put out the weekly mark-ups. I managed -- basically 8 managed the pressroom. The pressroom foremen reported to me 9 and, of course, they would oversee the pressroom on a 10 day-to-day basis and they managed the press crews; they also 11 assigned the press crews, and the press crews reported to 12 them. 13 Q. Did you have an office, sir? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. And where was it located? 16 A. My office was actually on the second floor, 17 which was just above the pressroom. There was a set of steps 18 that went out of the pressroom level that went to the second 19 floor. That office was -- actually overlooked the pressroom. 20 Q. Okay. If we were standing on the pressroom 21 floor in Area One, sir? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. There are three long presses that run down that 24 room? 25 A. Yes, sir. 153 1 Q. Press One, Press Two is in the middle and Press 2 Three; correct, sir? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. And at the end of Presses Two and Three is a 5 foreman's office; correct, sir? 6 A. Actually, right at the end of Press Number Two 7 was the foreman's office. 8 Q. Closer to Press Two? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Okay, sir. Was that your office? 11 A. No, sir. My office was on the second floor. 12 Q. And how long had you had that office on the 13 second floor? When did you get it? Let me start there. Do 14 you recall when it was? 15 A. Well, I suppose I got it as soon as I assumed 16 that position in '84. 17 Q. Okay. Now, sir, as pressroom superintendent was 18 there a separate foreman's or supervisor's office? 19 A. Yes. It was on the first floor right at the 20 pressroom level. 21 Q. And would you sometimes use that office, sir? 22 A. Yes. Quite often. 23 Q. When would you use that office? 24 A. Well, first thing in the morning normally I 25 would go to that office when I came to work, and normally I 154 1 would talk to the supervisors. And then periodically during 2 the day I would have other reasons to go into that office. 3 Q. If I understand correctly, sir, the shifts in 4 the pressroom were one to nine A.M.; am I right? 5 A. That's correct. 6 Q. There would be a shift change at nine A.M. in 7 the morning; correct? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And then there would be a shift from of course 10 nine to five P.M.? 11 A. Right. 12 Q. Okay, sir. Now, would you be in the habit of 13 getting to that supervisor's office at the shift change? 14 A. Normally I would be, yes. 15 Q. And what was the purpose of getting there at a 16 shift change? 17 A. Well, actually I would try to be there when the 18 incoming supervisor would come in. Normally they would come 19 in about a half an hour before their shift started. Actually, 20 I tried to be there about then and talk to them about any 21 problems or anything that might be coming up that they needed 22 to know about. 23 Q. In other words, normally you would be in the 24 foreman's office at the end of Press Two about a half an hour 25 before the shift began? 155 1 A. Normally I would be, yes. 2 Q. That would be about 8:30 A.M.? 3 A. Approximately, yes. 4 Q. And what would be the purpose of being there, 5 sir? 6 A. Just so that I could talk to the incoming 7 supervisor in case he needed any information or anything I 8 wanted to pass on to him or any particular problems that we 9 might have during the day. 10 Q. Now, sir, let me see if I understand. When you 11 as the superintendent were over the foremen, -- 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. -- who would make the job assignments? 14 A. The foremen would make the assignments. 15 Q. And how would the men be notified as to where 16 they were to work, what job they were to do? 17 A. Well, we had a form, and on this form at the top 18 was printed the particular presses, like Press Number One, 19 Number Two, Press Three, proof press and the presses in Area 20 Two when we had Area Two. And the foremen would put -- would 21 write the people's name on each one of those individual 22 presses on that piece of paper, and they would hang it up 23 either on the bulletin board or sometimes -- the last few 24 years we operated, they would actually just hang it on the 25 window on the pressroom office. When the people would walk 156 1 by, they could look to see where they were working for that 2 particular shift. 3 Q. And is this still the foreman's office that we 4 were talking about at the end of Press Two? 5 A. Yes. Yes. 6 Q. You just made a statement about Area One and 7 Area Two that I'd like to get some further information about. 8 The pressroom area that we've been talking about that has the 9 three presses numbered One, Two and Three, is that known as 10 Area One, sir? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. And that's where the foreman's office is located 13 at the end of Press Two? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. Okay, sir. You've also mentioned, and so have 16 some other people, Area Two. 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. Was that another pressroom area, sir? 19 A. Yes, sir; it was. 20 Q. And was it also operated by Standard Gravure? 21 A. Yes, sir. It actually was the Standard Gravure 22 pressroom. It was actually in Standard's building. 23 Q. And where was Area One? 24 A. Area One was in the newspaper building, The 25 Courier-Journal & Times building. 157 1 Q. It was actually in The Courier building? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. Now, sir, before I get us all totally confused, 4 was Area Two operational and in existence as of September 14, 5 1989? 6 A. No, sir; it wasn't. 7 Q. What had happened to it? 8 A. We had a fire in that pressroom in 1988, in 9 November of '88, and that operation was never restarted. 10 Q. So after November of 1988, there was only one 11 pressroom; correct? 12 A. That's correct. 13 Q. That was operational, at least? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. Where there would be anybody working? 16 A. Well, basically that's correct. We had a little 17 operation in Area Two after that, but not very much. 18 Q. But the main activity and the real production of 19 Standard Gravure after November of 1988 was limited to Area 20 One and those three long presses that ran down in that 21 pressroom; right? 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. Now, sir, let me go back with you, if I may. 24 You worked in various capacities and worked your way up the 25 ladder, so to speak, at Standard Gravure. Let me go back to 158 1 the 1970s; all right, sir? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. And if I understand correctly, you were working 4 part of that time as a journeyman pressman and fairly soon or 5 approximately that time you became an assistant foreman? 6 A. I became assistant foreman in 1976; prior to 7 that, I was a pressman. 8 Q. In the 1970s, sir, did you come into contact 9 with Joseph Wesbecker? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. And when you first came into contact with him 12 were you a journeyman pressman or were you already an 13 assistant foreman? 14 A. No. I believe I was a journeyman pressman. 15 Q. Did you have an occasion to work with him, sir? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And in those days when both of you were pressmen 18 together, you worked sometimes on the same crew? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. Would you tell us what you recall about Joseph 21 Wesbecker in the early 1970s, sir? 22 A. Well, he was just, I suppose, just like any 23 other average guy. He was employed by Standard Gravure. I 24 don't remember exactly what year, but he had came from the 25 Fawcett-Haynes printing company. I remember that when he came 159 1 into the plant he seemed to be a competent journeyman. I 2 considered him to be a good pressman, seemed like a pretty 3 nice fellow. We were never close personal friends, although 4 we were friends at work and I worked with him numerous times 5 on the press crews. He seemed just to be an average guy. 6 Q. I take it that at that time you and he were not 7 neighbors? 8 A. No, we were not, at least not that I know of. 9 Q. All right, sir. Did you see him, in those days, 10 outside of work? 11 A. No, I did not. 12 Q. You mentioned that you weren't real close to him 13 even then; am I right? 14 A. Quite often we worked on the same press crews 15 together. 16 Q. All right. And other than to observe him as a 17 worker, did he ever talk with you about himself or what his 18 life situation was at that time, sir? 19 A. I don't remember specifically. I knew that he 20 was married. I knew he had a couple of children. I don't 21 remember -- in the early days I don't remember too much about 22 him. 23 Q. All right, sir. In the early days did you ever 24 have any disagreements or any arguments with him? 25 A. No. 160 1 Q. Were there ever any times in the early days that 2 he refused to talk to you? 3 A. No. 4 Q. You and he got along well, as far as you know? 5 A. Got along very well. 6 Q. Now, sir, in 1976 you became an assistant 7 foreman, and then in later years you moved on up the ladder 8 and became the pressroom superintendent in 1984 or 9 thereabouts; correct, sir? 10 A. That's approximately correct. 11 Q. During those years, sir, did Mr. Wesbecker work 12 under you? 13 A. He didn't work directly -- well, when I was 14 pressroom foreman he did quite often, yes. 15 Q. All right. When were you pressroom foreman, 16 sir? 17 A. Well, I became assistant foreman in '76 and 18 foreman in '78. 19 Q. All right. So '76 through when, sir, would he 20 be working directly for you? 21 A. Well, actually, that's a little bit -- that's a 22 little fuzzy because for a six-month period of time there in 23 the early '80s I went on the one-to-nine shift as sort of a 24 trainee for a night plant superintendent's job, so at that 25 time I wasn't assigned to the pressroom and so Joe Wesbecker 161 1 didn't work under me at that time. Then shortly after that, I 2 came back to the pressroom as pressroom foreman on the 3 five-to-one shift, I believe. 4 Q. And about when was that, sir? 5 A. I'm not real sure when that was. It seems like 6 it was probably about I think maybe '81 or '82. I'm really 7 not sure. 8 Q. And that was on the five-to-one shift? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. Did he work that shift then, sir? 11 A. I don't remember for sure, but I believe that he 12 did. But I'm not sure. 13 Q. Okay. And then in about '84, you became 14 pressroom superintendent? 15 A. Yes, sir. But prior to that I was night plant 16 superintendent for probably a couple of years. After I 17 returned as pressroom foreman I stayed in that position for 18 about, oh, I think about six or eight or nine months and then 19 I assumed the position of night plant superintendent for about 20 two years. 21 Q. And did he work as part of the night crew? 22 A. I believe that he did, yes. 23 Q. During that period there, sir, in the mid '80s, 24 is that a fair time frame for your night plant superintendent 25 position? 162 1 A. In the early to mid '80s, yes. 2 Q. Did you have occasion to have contact with him 3 then, sir? 4 A. I would just see him around the plant. I didn't 5 really have much direct contact with him. 6 Q. Don't recall any conversations with him? 7 A. I probably had conversations with him. I don't 8 remember any specific. The only one that I remember specific 9 was when he bought the house on Nottoway Circle. 10 Q. All right. What do you recall about that, sir? 11 A. Well, I had bought my house in the latter part 12 of '83 and moved in in the early part of '84, and sometime 13 shortly after that, he approached me one night at work and 14 told me that he was considering or had already in fact bought 15 a house on Nottoway Circle. And he knew that I lived in that 16 subdivision, and he told me that he was going to buy the house 17 and that he was getting a really good deal on the house and 18 that he was going to pay cash for it. Asked me how I liked 19 the subdivision, numerous other things, and I don't remember 20 exactly what, and we had a conversation about it and that was 21 about the extent of it. 22 Q. Up until that time, sir, had you really had any 23 contact much with him at all during the 1980s? 24 A. Not very much, no. Now, I would see him at work 25 and I would speak to him occasionally, but I didn't really 163 1 have much contact with him, no. 2 Q. Certainly no disagreements or arguments or 3 friction between the two of you? 4 A. No. No. No. 5 Q. Now, sir, after the time that you were night 6 plant superintendent, you became pressroom superintendent? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And did you become aware of any complaints from 9 Joseph Wesbecker when you became or were pressroom 10 superintendent? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. What's the first thing that you remember about 13 him when you were pressroom superintendent? 14 A. Well, the first thing that I remember is that he 15 asked not to be placed on the folder. 16 Q. Did he ask you himself, sir? 17 A. No, he did not, and I'm not sure when he made 18 that request because he would not have asked me initially 19 anyway, he would have asked the foreman. And so I don't know 20 when that took place. 21 Q. And what information were you given about his 22 request? 23 A. Well, the first time I heard about it, I 24 actually heard about it from the pressroom foremen, and they 25 simply told me that he had expressed a desire to not work on 164 1 the folder and that was the extent of it, at least in the 2 beginning. 3 Q. How was that handled, sir? 4 A. I don't understand. 5 Q. How was his request handled? 6 A. Well, the best that I remember, the foremen told 7 him that they wouldn't use him on the folder unless it was 8 necessary. 9 Q. Did Mr. Wesbecker give any reason as to why he 10 didn't want to work the folder? 11 A. Well, I don't remember if he did initially or 12 not, but I had heard later on that he said that it made him 13 nervous. 14 Q. Did anybody else ever talk to you about his 15 request to get off of the folder other than foremen? 16 A. Yes, sir. Several times. 17 Q. Who else spoke to you? 18 A. Well, the company nurse, who was Lee Meagher at 19 the time -- she was the company nurse for The Courier, I 20 believe, the best that I remember -- sent me a memo and said 21 that he had had a nervous problem and that I shouldn't put him 22 on the folder unless it was necessary. And I had another 23 conversation with Mr. Pat Lampton. Now, I actually had that 24 conversation with Mr. Lampton when I was bindery 25 superintendent. Apparently he did not know that I had moved 165 1 to the bindery on a -- as a temporary assignment and he called 2 me one day and asked me not to put Joe Wesbecker on the 3 folder. He said he had some problems and he asked me not to 4 assign him to the folder unless necessary. I told Pat that 5 that wasn't an area of my responsibility but I would convey 6 the information to the pressroom people, which I did. 7 Q. Was the request up until this time, sir, 8 anything other than to not put him on the folder unless 9 necessary? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. What was the request beyond that? 12 A. Well, actually it was the same request. When I 13 talked to Mr. Lampton about it, he asked me not to put Joe 14 Wesbecker on the folder unless it was absolutely necessary. 15 Q. After those conversations, sir, did the request 16 ever become anything different than that? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. When was that? 19 A. I'm not sure, but I think it was sometime in 20 1987. 21 Q. And how did the request come to you, sir? 22 A. Apparently he had filed a complaint with the 23 Louisville and Jefferson County Human Relations Commission and 24 charged us with some sort of harassment, the best that I 25 remember, and said that we had given other people special 166 1 treatment but we were not willing to accommodate the same 2 treatment to him, because he had requested that a letter be 3 placed in his personnel file that stated that we would never, 4 ever, under any circumstance assign him to the folder. 5 Q. Prior to filing that complaint, had that request 6 ever been made of you? 7 A. To not ever assign him to the folder? 8 Q. Yes, sir. 9 A. He had made the request that we not put him on 10 the folder, yes. 11 Q. Was his request that he not be put on the folder 12 unless necessary or was it to never, ever be put on the 13 folder? 14 A. Not that I remember, no. 15 Q. In other words, it was just unless necessary 16 until the complaint was filed; am I right? 17 A. Yes. I think that's true, yes. 18 Q. In other words, up until the complaint was filed 19 with the Human Relations Commission, as far as you know, his 20 request had been accommodated? 21 MR. SMITH: Objection, leading, Your Honor. 22 JUDGE POTTER: Sustained. 23 Q. When the complaint was filed with the Human 24 Relations Commission, sir, had he ever asked for permanent 25 exemption? 167 1 A. I don't remember that he ever did. 2 Q. All right, sir. Let me show you that complaint 3 just so we get the numbers -- the dates right, just to use it 4 as a point of reference. 5 Your Honor, this has already been filed as 6 Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1. 7 JUDGE POTTER: This is the thing nobody can 8 read? 9 MR. STOPHER: No, sir. It's very legible. I 10 don't know if you want me to distribute this to the jury so 11 they can take a look at it. 12 JUDGE POTTER: If you're just getting the date 13 you don't have to. 14 MR. STOPHER: All right. Let me show you this 15 document, sir, and if you'd give us the date. 16 A. It's dated May 21st, 1987. 17 Q. All right, sir. And is that the complaint that 18 you're referring to, sir? 19 A. Apparently it is, although at the time I never 20 saw a copy of this complaint, sir. 21 Q. All right. Now, at that time, if I understand 22 correctly, Mr. Wesbecker wanted to be off of the folder 23 permanently? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. How was that handled, sir? 168 1 A. I'm not sure what you mean. 2 Q. Did the company agree? 3 A. We did not agree that we would place a letter in 4 his file stating that he would never, ever, under any 5 circumstance have to work on the folder. We had in fact taken 6 him off of the folder sometime prior to this and he never 7 worked the folder again, that I was ever able to find out, 8 from about, oh, sometime in 1986. 9 Q. Now, sir, at any time before the shootings 10 occurred, was he ever given a permanent exemption or a letter 11 in his file that he would never have to work the folder even 12 if he came back to work? 13 A. I don't think he was ever given a letter that he 14 would never have to work the folder under any circumstance. 15 Q. Now, sir, let me go back to another subject 16 matter. Did you ever get any complaints from him about any 17 other topics other than the folder? 18 A. No, sir; not that I remember. 19 Q. Did you ever hear any complaints about the 20 solvents? 21 A. Yes, sir. I may have about that. He may have 22 made some comment about he thought perhaps some of the solvent 23 fumes were harmful. I believe he did say that, yes. 24 Q. Did he ever get any more specific with you as to 25 what he thought was harmful about the solvents or in specific 169 1 what they did to him? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Did he ever talk to you about stress on the job? 4 A. Not that I remember specifically. He may have 5 mentioned it in conversations about not working on the folder. 6 I don't remember specifically that he ever did, though. He 7 never really said a lot. After he made the request about not 8 working on the folder, he never really elaborated about that 9 very much, just other than the fact that he simply didn't want 10 to work on the folder. 11 Q. Was there ever a time, Mr. Cox, when he stopped 12 speaking to you? 13 A. There was a time, and I don't remember exactly 14 when, when he did not pursue any conversations with me other 15 than work-related conversation. 16 Q. And how did you become aware of that? 17 A. Well, he basically just quit talking to me. I 18 mean, he didn't -- he wouldn't go out of his way to speak or 19 he never had anything to say, as I said, other than work- 20 related conversation. 21 Q. Did he ever tell you why? 22 A. No, sir. 23 Q. Did you ever ask him? 24 A. No, sir; I didn't. But that -- at that time, 25 there was -- he was not the only one that was, because there 170 1 was a lot of stress in the building at the time and, frankly, 2 he was not the only person that was like that. 3 Q. What were the reasons for the increased stress 4 at that time? 5 A. Well, it was a number of things. We had been 6 under a moratorium on the union contract. It had been a long 7 time since people had gotten a pay raise; there was a lot of 8 rumors about the company closing, business was not very good, 9 just numerous things. 10 Q. Did the new ownership have any effect on stress 11 or on morale in the pressroom? 12 A. Well, from my personal standpoint it was better 13 during the new ownership. I'm not sure among the general 14 people in the plant, though, I'm not sure that it was any 15 better. It may have been better initially with the new 16 ownership, but after a period of time I think that probably 17 subsided and I think it was probably about the same as it was 18 previously. 19 Q. Did the pension plan and changes in the pension 20 plan have any effect on morale in the pressroom from your 21 perspective, sir? 22 A. It probably did, although I'm really not sure 23 what those changes were in the pension plan. The fact that 24 when the ownership of the company changed, I understand that 25 there was an annuity bought with the money that was in the 171 1 pension plan and that became a matter of a lot of concern 2 among the people. 3 Q. Mr. Cox, did Mr. Wesbecker ever start speaking 4 to you again on a social basis after he stopped? 5 A. Generally speaking, he did not, although 6 occasionally he would speak. Generally speaking, though, he 7 did not. 8 Q. How long did that last, sir? 9 A. Well, I'm not really sure because really I'm not 10 sure when I started noticing it. I suppose it probably lasted 11 for -- and, also, during a lot of that period of time there 12 was long periods of time when I never even saw Joe Wesbecker, 13 so I can't really say for sure when it started. I'd say it 14 probably lasted maybe a year or so. 15 Q. A year or so? 16 A. I'm not sure. Maybe that long. 17 Q. Did it ever come to your attention that he had 18 stopped speaking to other people in the plant in addition to 19 you? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. Who else would he not speak to? 22 A. I'm not sure who all they were. What comes to 23 mind was Bill McKeown, Jim Popham, maybe some other pressroom 24 supervisors; I'm really not sure who they were. And I also 25 think there was probably some hourly people in there, but I 172 1 really don't know who they were. 2 Q. In other words, some other pressmen that he 3 wouldn't speak to? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Did you ever try to talk to Mr. Wesbecker and 6 see what it was that prompted him not to speak to the foremen, 7 yourself and hourly or pressmen people? 8 A. No, sir; I didn't. No. 9 Q. Did anybody ever explain it to you as to why he 10 stopped speaking to these people? 11 A. Well, actually, sometime during that period of 12 time was when he filed the complaint with the Jefferson County 13 Human Relations Commission, and at that time the best that I 14 remember during conversations with some of the other people 15 there in the management of the company, it was determined that 16 it might be best that we not have conversations about that. 17 Q. Who made the determination that you not talk 18 with him about his situation and his relationship to you and 19 to the others? 20 A. I'm not sure exactly who it was. We had a 21 number of conversations about it and it's been several years. 22 It seems like I had conversations with Paula Warman about it, 23 maybe with Grady Throneberry who was the security person at 24 the time. I'm not sure who it was. And it may have been a 25 collective decision among all of us. 173 1 Q. Mr. Cox, was there any real reason that you 2 could think of as to why Joseph Wesbecker would not speak to 3 you? 4 A. The only thing I know of was because of his 5 request about not working on the folder. 6 Q. But I thought it had been accommodated. 7 A. Well, we felt like that we had accommodated him 8 as best that we could under the circumstances. We had in fact 9 given him a letter that stated that we would not put him in 10 any position and then terminate him for not being able to 11 perform the work in that position, whatever it may have been, 12 and we had done that, in fact, for one other employee prior to 13 the time that I was pressroom superintendent. And so when we 14 gave him that letter, we thought that surely would have 15 satisfied him. 16 Q. After he got that letter did he start speaking 17 to you again? 18 A. Not that I remember, no. 19 Q. Mr. Cox, in connection with Joseph Wesbecker, 20 did you ever hear him talk about mental illness? 21 A. Not that I remember. 22 Q. Did you ever have any information that he was 23 mentally ill? 24 A. I signed the sick forms that came across my desk 25 as a result of him being off sick numerous times. I knew that 174 1 he had a mental problem, simply because of those forms, but I 2 really wasn't sure what it was. Some of the terminology that 3 was on some of those forms I really didn't know what it meant. 4 Q. Did anyone attempt to investigate the severity 5 or the extent of his mental illness in connection with his 6 requests for relief from the folder or disability? 7 A. I believe that Paula Warman did. I'm not sure 8 to what extent that she did, but I believe that she probably 9 did. 10 Q. In any event, you did not; am I correct, sir? 11 A. I did not. But I did have conversations with 12 Paula concerning that and maybe with other people, too, maybe 13 Grady Throneberry, I'm not sure. 14 Q. Mr. Cox, did it ever come to your attention that 15 Mr. Wesbecker had made a threat to kill or to harm someone at 16 Standard Gravure? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. Can you tell us what information you were given 19 about a threat from Joseph Wesbecker? 20 A. Well, the first time was sometime after the 21 fact, I understood at the time, several months after the fact. 22 Jim Popham told me, or actually I suppose he put it in the 23 form of a question, did I know that Joe Wesbecker had brought 24 a gun into the plant sometime in the past. And I told him 25 that I had not. And he told me that Jim Lucas, who was 175 1 another pressman there in the plant, that Wesbecker had told 2 him that he had a gun in the plant and that he was going to 3 use it on some people there in the plant, but this was some 4 time well after the fact. 5 Q. Let me see if I understand the chain here. Mr. 6 Lucas told Mr. Popham and then Mr. Popham asked if you were 7 aware? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Mr. Popham was a foreman? 10 A. Yes, he was. 11 Q. And what was the report of the threat? Who had 12 been threatened by Mr. Wesbecker? 13 A. Well, I'm not sure who the others were that were 14 included, but myself and Jim Popham were included among the 15 people and there may have been others. 16 Q. Did the report come to you as to how Mr. 17 Wesbecker was going to do this? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Did the report explain to you why he wanted to 20 kill you or Mr. Popham or both of you? 21 A. No. 22 Q. You indicated that you got this report some 23 months after the threat had actually been made; am I correct? 24 A. It was a period of time. I'm not sure exactly 25 how long it was, but it was a period of time. 176 1 Q. And when you got that information, sir, what did 2 you do with it? 3 A. I talked to Jim Lucas about it first right away 4 and asked him about the report that he had given Jim Popham, 5 and he told me that Wesbecker had told him that he had a gun 6 and that he was going to use it on specific people in the 7 plant, myself and Jim Popham. And I reported it right away to 8 Grady Throneberry, who was the security person in the 9 building. Grady and I immediately went right across the hall 10 to Don McCall's office and reported it to him, and then I also 11 reported it to Vernon Rothenburger, who was my supervisor. 12 Q. Did you do that immediately after hearing about 13 the threat and after talking with Mr. Lucas? 14 A. It was pretty much immediate. I don't remember 15 if it was exactly the same day because those people may or may 16 not have been in their office that very day, but it was pretty 17 quickly after that. 18 Q. Did you personally report this to Mr. Grady 19 Throneberry, sir? 20 A. Yes, I did. 21 Q. And did Mr. Lucas or Mr. Popham accompany you? 22 A. Not that I remember. No, I don't think so. 23 Q. But before you went to see Mr. Throneberry you 24 had talked to Mr. Lucas about it? 25 A. Yes. 177 1 Q. And did he confirm the threat to you that you 2 had heard about from Mr. Popham? 3 A. Jim Lucas? 4 Q. Yes, sir. 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. He tell you the same thing that you had heard 7 from Mr. Popham? 8 A. Pretty much, yeah. 9 Q. Do you recall when this was, sir? 10 A. No, but I think it was probably sometime in 11 about -- maybe late '87, but, again, I'm not sure. It may 12 have been in '88. I just really don't know. 13 Q. Now, you go to see Mr. Throneberry; correct? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And who was he at that time, sir? 16 A. He was the management person in charge of 17 security. 18 Q. And did you repeat this information to him? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Did you give him the details as to how you had 21 gotten it and how you confirmed it? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. What did he say to you? 24 A. I don't remember specifically. He asked me if I 25 was particularly concerned about it, if I knew when it had 178 1 occurred. He asked me then what I thought we ought to do 2 about it and I told him I didn't really think there was 3 anything that we could do about it, but we went across the 4 hall and we reported it to Don McCall. 5 Q. Didn't he offer to have guards at your home? 6 MR. SMITH: Objection. Leading, Your Honor. 7 JUDGE POTTER: Sustained. 8 Q. Was there any discussion about guards? 9 A. There was a discussion about guards with Mr. 10 McCall and also Mr. Rothenburger. That discussion occurred 11 after Grady Throneberry and I went across the hall and 12 reported it to Don McCall. 13 Q. Let me back up and go back to just you and Mr. 14 Throneberry. Mr. Throneberry, who was the manager of 15 security, asked you what should be done? 16 MR. SMITH: Objection. Leading. 17 JUDGE POTTER: Sustained. 18 Q. What was Mr. Throneberry's response when you 19 gave him the information about the threat? 20 A. I can't remember his exact words, but it seemed 21 like something like, "Well, are you particularly concerned 22 about it or do you think it's a relevant threat? What do you 23 think we ought to do about this?" 24 Q. And what did you say? 25 A. I told him I wasn't particularly worried about 179 1 it because it had happened sometime in the past, and I just 2 didn't -- I didn't see as we could really do anything about 3 it. 4 Q. Was there any discussion about contacting Mr. 5 Wesbecker's psychiatrist? 6 A. I don't remember if there was. I don't think 7 so, but I don't remember. 8 Q. Was there any discussion about calling the 9 police? 10 A. I think there probably was. In fact, I think 11 Mr. Throneberry may have been a former police officer, and he 12 may have in fact contacted somebody at the police department 13 about this, but I'm not sure about that. 14 Q. You think Mr. Throneberry had been a police 15 officer? 16 A. I was under the impression that he was. 17 Q. Did he tell you that he contacted the police 18 about Mr. Wesbecker? 19 A. I think he told me, the best that I remember, 20 that he had had a conversation with somebody in the police 21 department about Mr. Wesbecker and this threat. 22 Q. Did he tell you what the police did about it? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Did -- if I understand correctly, after this 25 discussion with Mr. Throneberry then you and he both together 180 1 go across the hall to Mr. McCall's office? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. What occurred in that office, sir? 4 A. Well, I related the same story to Don McCall at 5 Grady Throneberry's -- he asked me to relate the same story to 6 Don McCall that I had told him, which I did, and Don again 7 asked me if I was particularly concerned about it, and he 8 said -- asked me if I wanted a guard placed on my home, which 9 I told him I did not. 10 Q. What else occurred in that discussion, sir? 11 A. I don't remember any other specifics. We had a 12 brief discussion about it, but I don't remember any other 13 specifics about it. 14 Q. Was there any discussion in front of Mr. McCall 15 about contacting a psychiatrist of Mr. Wesbecker's? 16 A. Not that I remember. 17 Q. Any discussion about contacting the police? 18 A. Not that I remember. 19 Q. Any discussion about contacting Pat Lampton? 20 A. I don't remember that there was. 21 Q. Any discussion about contacting Joe Wesbecker? 22 A. Seems like there was some discussion about 23 contacting him and seeing what the problem was or if in fact 24 this had taken place. 25 Q. And was it decided to do that or not to do that? 181 1 A. I don't remember, sir, what we had decided 2 there. 3 Q. Did you contact Joe Wesbecker after these 4 discussions and after you learned of this threat? 5 A. No. 6 Q. You never asked him about it or what he felt 7 about you? 8 A. No. No. 9 Q. Or what was going on with him? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Did anyone else, that you're aware of, sir? 12 A. Not that I'm aware of. 13 Q. Now, sir, after this meeting with Mr. McCall and 14 I think you said that Mr. Throneberry was also there; it was 15 the three of you, am I right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Then you reported it a third time, if I 18 understand correctly? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And to whom did you report it the third time? 21 A. Vernon Rothenburger. 22 Q. And what was he at that time, sir? 23 A. I believe he was production manager. I'm not 24 sure if that's right, but I believe he was. 25 Q. And how was he positioned with regard to you? 182 1 A. He was my supervisor. 2 Q. Did you go alone to Mr. Rothenburger? 3 A. I believe that I did. 4 Q. Throneberry did not go with you? 5 A. I don't remember that he did, no. I don't think 6 so. 7 Q. And did you tell Mr. Rothenburger the same 8 thing? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. What was his response, sir? 11 A. He again asked me if I thought it was a relevant 12 threat, if I was particularly concerned about it one way or 13 another, and he asked me if I wanted some kind of protection 14 on my home. 15 Q. And was your response the same, that you didn't 16 want guards or security at your home? 17 A. Yes. Yes. 18 Q. Did you ever tell anyone else about your 19 knowledge about Mr. Wesbecker and this threat? 20 A. I don't remember that I specifically did. I may 21 have had a conversation with some of the other supervisors 22 about it, but I think they were already aware of this. 23 Q. In other words, you may have talked to some of 24 the other foremen? 25 MR. SMITH: Objection. Leading. 183 1 JUDGE POTTER: Sustained. 2 Q. Who were the other supervisors, sir? 3 A. The other supervisors were Bill McKeown, Ken 4 Rich, at that time it was probably Art Smithers, maybe Dave 5 Cheatham, I don't remember specifically which ones I talked 6 to. I may have talked to all of them about it. 7 Q. Did you get any information from them about Mr. 8 Wesbecker's threat? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Was it decided that there would be any action by 11 the supervisors or yourself in the pressroom with regard to 12 this threat? 13 A. I don't remember that there was. In fact, I'm 14 not sure that -- at this point in time I'm not sure that 15 Joseph Wesbecker was even in the pressroom at this time 16 because during a lot of these periods he was actually off 17 sick. So during some of these periods he may or may not have 18 even been in the pressroom. 19 Q. Was it decided to communicate this information 20 about this threat to the other pressmen? 21 A. No. 22 Q. It was kept from them? 23 A. I don't remember that we ever discussed it with 24 them. 25 MR. SMITH: Objection. Leading. 184 1 JUDGE POTTER: I think Mr. Smith does have some 2 points. If you can lead a little less. 3 Q. Was information given to the pressmen about Mr. 4 Wesbecker's threat? 5 A. I don't remember that it was. 6 Q. Did you ever discuss this with Paula Warman? 7 A. I don't remember. I may have after the 8 complaint was filed with the Human Relations Commission. I 9 just -- I don't remember. 10 Q. Let me refer you, sir, to your deposition that 11 was given on July 9, 1992, under oath. Do you recall that, 12 sir? 13 A. I remember that I gave a deposition. 14 Q. Let me refer you, sir, to Page 179, Line 6. 15 "Question: Now, sir, you also reported it to 16 Paula Warman? 17 "Answer: Yes. 18 "Question: What did you tell her? 19 "Answer: I told her pretty much the same thing 20 that I had told the other people. 21 "And what was her response or reaction to it? 22 "There might be a correction there. I may not 23 have talked to Paula about it at exactly that time. I may not 24 have talked to Paula about that incident until after the 25 complaint was filed with the Human Relations Commission and 185 1 her and I got into a discussion about Mr. Wesbecker." 2 Does that refresh your recollection, sir? 3 A. I think so; yes, sir. I think Paula and I did 4 have that conversation. 5 Q. And what did you tell her about this matter? 6 A. Well, of course, this had happened prior to this 7 complaint that was filed with the Human Relations Commission, 8 and I pretty much related the same information to her. 9 Q. Did you discuss Mr. Wesbecker's threat at home? 10 A. Not the threat, no. 11 MR. SMITH: Objection. Leading. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Sustained. 13 Q. Did you discuss Mr. Wesbecker after you learned 14 about this threat at home? 15 MR. SMITH: Objection. Leading, Your Honor. 16 JUDGE POTTER: Well, let me see you-all up here. 17 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 18 JUDGE POTTER: What's the relevance of what went 19 on at home? 20 MR. STOPHER: He instructed his kids not to hang 21 around his house. He told his wife about the threat for 22 himself and Mr. Popham and suggested that she stay away from 23 his house, and all I'm doing is just switching topics. 24 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. I can see the relevance of 25 it. Objection is overruled. 186 1 MR. SMITH: Can we have some instruction, Your 2 Honor, on the repetitive leading nature of the questions? I 3 hate to be a pest, but Mr. Stopher is an extremely articulate 4 attorney and knows when he's leading and, you know, I just 5 object to it. 6 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Well, just keep objecting 7 and I'll keep ruling. 8 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 9 MR. STOPHER: Julie, would you read back the 10 last question? 11 (REPORTER READS THE RECORD) 12 A. I didn't discuss it at home, sir, until after 13 the complaint was filed with the Human Relations Commission. 14 Q. What occurred, then? 15 A. Actually, my children caught the school bus 16 about a half a block from Joe Wesbecker's house. After he 17 filed the complaint with the Human Relations Commission -- my 18 children were young; I had a child in grade school and one in 19 -- I believe in high school at the time. And I told my 20 children not to hang around the neighborhood down there when 21 they got off the school bus. Of course, I had already told 22 them that anyway. They didn't hang around down there anyway. 23 But I told them not to hang around down there; that a guy had 24 filed a complaint against me with the Human Relations 25 Commission and I didn't want my children hanging around down 187 1 there. 2 Q. Did you discuss it with your wife? 3 A. Only to that extent. 4 Q. Now, sir, after you learned about this threat, 5 did you ever meet Mr. Wesbecker face to face? 6 A. I'm sure I did there in the pressroom. I don't 7 remember specifically. 8 Q. And I take it that -- well, did he speak to you 9 when you met him or ran into him? 10 A. Sometimes he would and sometimes he would not. 11 Q. Did you ever get any other information about a 12 threat from Mr. Wesbecker? 13 A. Yes, sir. I got some information from Mr. 14 Lucas. 15 Q. And when was this, sir? 16 A. I'm not sure exactly. I think it was probably 17 sometime around the first of August in '89, but I'm not sure 18 about the date. 19 Q. And what information did you get from Mr. Lucas? 20 A. Jim Lucas came into the pressroom office one day 21 when he came into work on the 5:00 shift and he said that he 22 had run into Joe Wesbecker at the grocery store out on Dixie 23 Highway, and he said that Joe seemed to be particularly 24 agitated and nervous. And he said that Joe said that he was 25 going to get an airplane and put some sort of an explosive in 188 1 it and fly it over the top of the building and throw it in the 2 solvent recovery system, which was on top of The Courier- 3 Journal building. 4 Q. Who was present when Mr. Lucas told you this? 5 A. I'm not sure who all was there, but I believe 6 Bill McKeown and Kay Back was there. 7 Q. And who are they, again, sir? 8 A. Bill McKeown was a pressroom foreman and so was 9 Kay Back. 10 Q. And Mr. Lucas reported this? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Did Mr. Lucas give you any other information 13 about Mr. Wesbecker when he reported this? 14 A. Nothing other than that he seemed to be 15 particularly agitated and that he seemed to be nervous. The 16 best that I remember, he said that he saw him and that he 17 was -- he looked dirty and unshaven, and that was about the 18 extent of the conversation. 19 Q. Did Mr. Lucas mention anything about a letter 20 that Mr. Wesbecker had received? 21 A. I don't remember that he did, sir. 22 Q. Let me again refer you, sir, to your deposition. 23 A. I think that he did say something about a letter 24 that Mr. Wesbecker may have received from somebody in the 25 personnel department. 189 1 Q. What did he tell you about the letter? 2 A. I don't remember that he had anything specific 3 to say about it and I'm not sure that he even knew what the 4 contents of the letter was, but seems like it was common 5 knowledge at that time that a letter went out that had 6 something to do with the pension plan or insurance or 7 something like that. 8 Q. Let me refer you again, sir, to your deposition 9 on July 8, 1992. 10 A. Okay. 11 Q. Page 195, sir, and see if this refreshes your 12 recollection. Line 11 -- well, let me go back to Line 7 and 13 begin this question: "And you said that Mr. Lucas told you 14 about a conversation between himself and Mr. Wesbecker at a 15 discount store on Dixie Highway? 16 "Answer: That's what he said. 17 "Question: And that it was, if I understand 18 your words, a bitter discussion? 19 "Answer: He said that Mr. Wesbecker was bitter. 20 "Question: Bitter at Mr. Lucas? 21 "Answer: No. Bitter at Standard Gravure. 22 "Question: Did he tell you why he was bitter? 23 "Answer: He didn't mention really specifics. 24 He did mention the fact that Wesbecker supposedly received a 25 letter from Standard that had something to do with some of his 190 1 insurance benefits. 2 "Question: Did Mr. Lucas tell you that Mr. 3 Wesbecker had received the letter in which he was advised that 4 his benefits were going to be substantially cut? 5 "Answer: Lucas said that Wesbecker had told him 6 that there was a possibility of that. 7 "Question: What else was bitter? 8 "Answer: About his general treatment by the 9 company while he had been working there. Still the fact that 10 we wouldn't give him a letter saying that he absolutely would 11 not have to work the folder. Of course, the guy had already 12 been off work almost a year and a half at that point. It was 13 just a -- just a general statement of bitterness towards 14 Standard Gravure management in particular." 15 A. I think that's true. 16 Q. Is that all still accurate, sir? 17 A. I think that's true. Yes, sir. 18 Q. Now, sir, when Mr. Lucas told you about this 19 threat to blow up Standard Gravure or to put explosives on a 20 model airplane or on an airplane and fly it into the solvent 21 recovery tank, did Mr. Lucas give you any more information 22 about why he wanted to do that? 23 A. I don't remember that he did other than the fact 24 that, like we've already covered just a minute ago, about the 25 fact that he was bitter at the company and he felt like that 191 1 he had been treated badly. 2 Q. And Mr. Wesbecker was not working at that time? 3 A. No, he wasn't. And hadn't worked in some time. 4 Q. Mr. Cox, what else was said in this meeting with 5 Mr. Lucas in front of Mr. McKeown and Mr. Rich and yourself? 6 A. I don't remember what else we talked about. I 7 don't remember if we talked about anything. 8 Q. Did Mr. Lucas leave? 9 A. Yes, after a few minutes. 10 Q. What was done with the information about this 11 second threat? 12 A. I'm not sure exactly. I believe that I reported 13 it to Grady Throneberry, but I'm not positive about that. 14 But, quite frankly, we considered this, all of this 15 information to be so bizarre and so unrealistic that all of us 16 completely discounted it. 17 Q. Why did you believe that it was bizarre and 18 unrealistic? 19 A. Well, because we just didn't -- we just didn't 20 think Joe Wesbecker had that ability. We didn't think that he 21 could fly an airplane and the whole thing just seemed silly to 22 us. We just completely discounted it. And I think all of us 23 felt the same way about it. 24 Q. Did you question his bitterness toward the 25 company to want to blow it up? 192 1 A. I didn't really question it because I already 2 knew that he was bitter about the company from the complaint 3 that he had filed with the Human Relations Commission and with 4 the other discussions that had taken place about the fact that 5 he didn't want to work on the folder and his request that we 6 give him a letter stating that he would never, ever have to, 7 under any circumstance, work on the folder. And so it was 8 already pretty much common knowledge what he was bitter about. 9 Q. Did you believe that at that time he was not 10 bitter enough to want to kill and harm people and the plant? 11 MR. SMITH: We'd object to that. That would 12 call for some kind of speculation on this Witness's part. 13 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Sustained. 14 Q. When you say that the complaint was bizarre and 15 unrealistic -- 16 A. I would certainly say that all of us considered 17 it to be bizarre and unrealistic. I certainly did, anyway. 18 Q. Was it bizarre in the context that he couldn't 19 do it mechanically? 20 A. That was just a part of it. We didn't think he 21 could do it mechanically. 22 Q. What were the other parts of it? 23 A. We didn't think he was that bitter. Joe 24 Wesbecker left the plant a year ago or more than a year ago. 25 Quite frankly, when he left I thought he really had everything 193 1 he wanted. He had already been off work for six months on 2 sick pay and he had received his long-term disability and he 3 was basically retired. It was our understanding that he had 4 received his Social Security disability benefit, and so when 5 he left the plant, I really considered that that was the last 6 time that we would ever again hear from Joe Wesbecker. And we 7 all pretty much felt the same way. We never thought that we'd 8 ever see or hear from him again. We basically thought he had 9 everything he wanted. 10 Q. Did you believe Mr. Lucas? 11 A. Not entirely, no. 12 Q. Why not, sir? 13 A. Well, Jim Lucas had been the type of guy in the 14 past for a number of years that when he told us any kind of a 15 story he seemed to be the type of guy that would blow it out 16 of proportion. He seemed to be an alarmist, not on just this 17 subject but on numerous other subjects and things that we had 18 talked about in the building. Quite frankly, we just didn't 19 place a lot of credibility in some of the stories that he told 20 us. 21 Q. Did you have any particular reason to believe 22 that what Mr. Lucas was reporting was not true or was it just 23 based on past dealings? 24 A. No. I didn't have any particular reason. I 25 didn't have any reason to believe that Joe Wesbecker had not 194 1 said what Lucas reported. 2 Q. Was there any discussion among the three of you, 3 that is, McKeown and Rich and yourself, about contacting the 4 police? 5 A. Not that I remember, no. I don't remember that 6 there was, but it's possible. But I just don't remember. 7 Q. Was it reported by you to the police? 8 A. To the police, no. 9 Q. Was there any discussion about reporting this to 10 Mr. Wesbecker's psychiatrist? 11 A. Not that I remember. 12 Q. And I take it you didn't report it? 13 A. I did not report it other than I may have 14 reported it to Mr. Throneberry. 15 Q. Do you have any recollection, sir, of anything 16 at all being done at Standard Gravure after this threat was 17 reported to you? 18 A. Not that I recall, no. 19 Q. Was this threat communicated by you to anybody 20 else? 21 A. Other than possibly Mr. Throneberry, I don't 22 remember that it was. 23 Q. Mr. Cox, was there an emergency warning system 24 at Standard Gravure? 25 A. There was a warning system, yes. 195 1 Q. And what type of a warning system was there, 2 sir? 3 A. I'm not sure exactly. It was a system similar 4 to a fire alarm. 5 Q. And what type of a warning would it produce? 6 A. I'm not really sure. I'm not really sure that I 7 ever heard it specifically. 8 Q. How would the warning system be used, activated? 9 A. There were a number of boxes and that may have 10 been through the fire alarm system. 11 Q. There was a fire alarm system? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Let's begin with it, sir. How did it work? 14 A. Well, it had a number of release boxes located 15 throughout the building, and I'm not sure if there were any of 16 those in the pressroom because the pressroom had its own 17 fire-fighting system. 18 MR. SMITH: Can we approach, Your Honor? 19 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 20 MR. SMITH: We object to any conversation along 21 these lines on the basis of relevance, Your Honor. It's not 22 material or relevant to any issue this jury is going to 23 decide. 24 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, the issue of security 25 or inadequate security is at issue and this is one of the 196 1 items that their expert has already rendered opinions about. 2 JUDGE POTTER: Are you going to have anybody 3 come testify live, Mr. Stopher, that our night watchman should 4 have pulled the fire alarm switch? 5 MR. STOPHER: I'm going to use the testimony of 6 their experts, Your Honor. 7 JUDGE POTTER: You're going to read parts of his 8 deposition? 9 MR. STOPHER: Right, sir. 10 MR. SMITH: I don't think it's relevant at this 11 time, Your Honor, with this Witness. I mean, this Witness is 12 no security expert. 13 JUDGE POTTER: No, but he's just going to tell 14 about the actual alarm systems at Standard Gravure. Objection 15 is overruled. 16 MR. SMITH: He's couching it in terms of a 17 warning system. I don't know that this Witness would be 18 qualified to answer that. 19 JUDGE POTTER: Whatever kind of system it is, he 20 can testify about it. 21 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 22 Q. I think you said, sir, that there were release 23 boxes for this fire alarm system? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. If the fire alarm was activated, would it not be 197 1 activated in the pressroom? 2 A. I don't -- I don't remember if -- I don't 3 remember specifically if it would have or not. 4 Q. All right. Well, let me go back to my original 5 question, sir. Was there any warning system in the pressroom 6 that could alert pressmen that there was a danger? 7 A. Yes, there was. There was a speaker system that 8 was located in the pressroom specifically. 9 Q. Okay, sir. And there was a speaker system that 10 would allow someone to make an announcement? 11 A. Well, you could make the announcement. I'm not 12 sure it would be heard, but you could make the announcement. 13 Q. Where were the controls for that speaker system? 14 A. They were over the telephone system. 15 Q. In other words, you could use the phone? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. How would it work, sir? 18 A. I don't remember how it worked. There was a 19 certain number that you picked up the telephone and dialed and 20 you could talk directly into the system, but I don't remember 21 what it was. 22 Q. Was that system in operation on September 14, 23 1989? 24 A. I believe it was. 25 Q. Was there an announcement made? 198 1 A. I don't remember that there was because at the 2 time I wasn't in the pressroom. 3 Q. On that date, sir, did you ever hear an 4 announcement made? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Mr. Cox, are you at all familiar, sir, with the 7 entrance into the building on what's called the Sixth Street 8 side? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. Do you know if there was any security at that 11 entrance, sir? 12 A. I don't know. 13 MR. SMITH: Again, Your Honor, this is not even 14 his area of responsibility. 15 JUDGE POTTER: Objection is overruled. If he 16 knows, he can answer the question. 17 A. I don't know. 18 Q. I take it you didn't use that entrance or know 19 what was there? 20 A. I never used that entrance and almost nobody 21 did. 22 Q. Mr. Cox, let me go then to September 14, 1989, 23 sir. 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. What time that day did you arrive at the plant? 199 1 A. About 7:30. 2 Q. And generally what did you do that morning, sir? 3 A. Well, I usually came into the pressroom office 4 first and would check the reports from the 5:00 shift, and 5 then I would go out into the pressroom and check the running 6 tapes on the press. We had a running tape on each press that 7 recorded all the downtime and press speeds and various other 8 information. I would check all of those to see how the 9 presses had operated. I would probably pick up a product that 10 was running on the press and see what it looked like and just 11 go through the pressroom and check things out. 12 Q. You went to the office first? 13 A. I believe that I did, yes. 14 Q. And that would be the foremen's office, sir? 15 A. That would be the foremen's office, yes. 16 Q. And then you went to the presses and picked up 17 the press reports? 18 A. No. The press reports would have been in the 19 office. 20 Q. I apologize, sir. You picked up something on 21 those presses? 22 A. I picked up the products that the presses were 23 running and looked at those products. 24 Q. In other words, you looked at the books that 25 were being printed? 200 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Then what did you do, sir? 3 A. I might go down into the reel room. You know, 4 there wasn't really any specific set pattern. I might do a 5 number of things depending on what the problems were in the 6 pressroom and what was going on out there. 7 Q. What did you do after that? 8 A. I probably returned to the pressroom office and 9 talked to the pressroom supervisors. 10 Q. About what time do you think you were there, 11 sir? 12 A. Pardon me? 13 Q. About what time were you in the pressroom office 14 talking to the supervisors? 15 A. I probably returned to the pressroom office 16 about eight A.M. I don't remember exactly. 17 Q. How long do you think you were there, sir? 18 A. Oh, probably -- altogether probably about 40 19 minutes, but I may have been in and out of the office during 20 that time. 21 Q. In other words, from 8:00 to about 8:40 but 22 maybe in and out some of that time? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Who else was in that office with you that 25 morning, sir? 201 1 A. Ken Rich, seemed like he came in about 8:00. 2 And I believe Dave Cheatham was in there, but I'm not sure 3 about that. 4 Q. Anyone else? 5 A. I don't remember. There may have been -- I'm 6 sure there was other people that was in and out of the office 7 during that period. 8 Q. Other foremen or supervisors? 9 A. No. That would have been the other foremen or 10 supervisors, I'm sure. Probably some of the pressmen was in 11 and out of that office and that was pretty common. 12 Q. About 8:40 did you leave the supervisor's or the 13 foremen's office, sir? 14 A. At about that time one of the pressmen walked 15 into the pressroom office and informed us that one of the 16 printing cylinders on Press Number One had worn out in the 17 press, so Ken Rich and I walked outside the pressroom office 18 to Press Number One and we observed that cylinder was wore 19 out. By the time we got there, the press was already down. 20 Q. Mr. Cox, if you're standing at the door of the 21 supervisor's office and you're facing out toward the presses, 22 is Press One all the way to the left or is it to the right? 23 A. It's to the right. 24 Q. Okay. Did you go over to Press One? 25 A. Yes. 202 1 Q. And did you start working on Press One? 2 A. No. 3 Q. What did you do? 4 A. Well, I looked at my watch and it was about 5 seventeen minutes before nine and we observed that the 6 cylinder was indeed worn out, and so I turned and went up the 7 steps and went through my office. Every morning at 8:45 we 8 had a production and a scheduling meeting in the quality 9 control area, so I headed for that meeting at about seventeen 10 minutes before nine. 11 Q. Where is the quality control located, sir? 12 A. That would be in -- that would be just inside 13 Standard's building, just inside what used to be the blue 14 building. 15 Q. Is that in or near the pressroom, sir? 16 A. No. It's a good distance from the pressroom, 17 sir, and it's on the second floor. 18 MR. SMITH: Did you say Standard or 19 Courier-Journal, please? 20 A. Standard. 21 Q. What level of the building is it on, sir? 22 A. It was on the second floor. 23 Q. All right. And who did you meet with there, 24 sir; were they quality control people or production people? 25 A. It was a number of people. Usually it was the 203 1 scheduling people, quality control, normally the customer 2 service reps were there, the bindery management was there, 3 there was just a number of us that converged there at 8:45 4 every morning. 5 Q. And were you in that meeting when you heard 6 about the shootings, sir? 7 A. Well, actually the meeting never really took 8 place. When I arrived at that area at about a quarter till -- 9 about a quarter till nine, there was nobody there in the room. 10 And I noticed -- I thought it was a little strange. I sat 11 down in a chair just for a minute and then I got up and nobody 12 else had came into the room, and I thought it was pretty 13 strange that nobody was there for the meeting. 14 At about that time, Tom Galt walked out of his 15 office and asked me what I was doing there, and I -- of 16 course, I really didn't know what he meant. I said, "Well, I 17 came for the meeting." And I said, "What's going on?" And 18 then he informed me that somebody was on the third floor 19 shooting people. 20 Q. Was there any discussion about using the public 21 address system or the speaker system to make an announcement? 22 A. No, sir. No, sir. 23 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Wesbecker that day, sir? 24 A. No, sir, other than after he was dead. 25 Q. Those are all the questions I have, sir. 204 1 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith. 2 3 EXAMINATION ___________ 4 5 BY_MR._SMITH: __ ___ ______ 6 Q. Mr. Cox, I'm Paul Smith and I represent the 7 Plaintiffs in this case. 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. Do I understand that on the morning of September 10 14th, 1989, that there was a meeting that had been scheduled 11 to occur at 8:45 A.M., there on the second floor of the plant? 12 A. Yes, sir. That meeting took place every 13 morning. 14 Q. And in that meeting you were there -- 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. -- every morning? How long had you-all been 17 having these meetings? 18 A. Oh, I don't know. For a considerable period of 19 time. I don't know. Maybe a year, two years, longer, I 20 really don't know. 21 Q. Was it well known that these meetings were 22 occurring at 8:45 on the second floor of the Standard 23 building? 24 A. I think so, yes. 25 Q. And you say there was scheduling people there 205 1 that would be at these meetings? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Would that be foremen or would that be other 4 type of schedules? 5 A. It could have been it was foremen. Like, for 6 instance, the engraving department foreman was usually there; 7 sometimes the bindery foreman was there. 8 Q. How about the foremen from Area One printing? 9 A. Foremen from Area One Pressroom normally did not 10 attend. 11 Q. All right. How about some of the upper 12 management people in addition to yourself, like Mr. Shea? 13 A. Mr. Shea almost never attended. 14 Q. How about Mr. McCall? 15 A. No. Almost never attended. 16 Q. Ms. Warman? 17 A. She might occasionally attend, but she didn't 18 make it a regular habit. 19 Q. But there were a number of people with 20 management responsibilities, including yourself? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. That had this regularly scheduled meeting at 23 8:45 on the second floor? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And do you know for a fact, Mr. Cox, 206 1 Mr. Wesbecker never went on the second floor of the Standard 2 Gravure building on September 14th, 1989? 3 A. I don't know that, sir. 4 Q. In other words, he started on the third floor, 5 shot and killed people there on the third floor? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. Went down into the basement area, went into the 8 press area, which I guess is sort of the first floor? 9 A. Yes, it is. 10 Q. And shot a lot of people there in the break 11 room, but is it your understanding that he never got into the 12 area where upper management was working at the time and had a 13 meeting scheduled? 14 A. I don't believe that he ever got into the 15 second-floor area. 16 Q. Never went into that area, did he? 17 A. I don't believe he did, no. 18 Q. Do you know of anything that would have 19 prevented him from going directly to that area? 20 A. No, I don't know of anything that would have 21 prevented him. 22 Q. That wasn't a hidden meeting, was it, or a 23 secret meeting? 24 A. No. 25 Q. And that wasn't a meeting behind closed doors or 207 1 guarded by anybody? 2 A. Not that I'm aware of, no. 3 Q. And if somebody wanted -- had a longstanding 4 plan to wipe out a bunch of the big dogs at Standard Gravure 5 and yourself, especially at 8:45, that would be a place where 6 they could go, wouldn't it, sir? 7 MR. STOPHER: Objection, Your Honor. That calls 8 for an opinion. 9 JUDGE POTTER: Sustained. Sustained. 10 Q. That's where you were at 8:45 on Thursday, 11 September 14th, 1989, sir? 12 A. Approximately 8:45, yes. 13 Q. I'd like to back up with you a little bit, 14 Mr. Cox. As I understand it, in the period of time that you 15 were a pressroom worker, a journeyman pressman, you worked 16 with Joe Wesbecker? 17 A. Yes, I did. 18 Q. And did he work the folder on those occasions 19 when you worked with him on the same press? 20 A. He did sometimes, yes. 21 Q. And was he competent in doing that? 22 A. Yes. He was an excellent folder man. 23 Q. And after you became foreman and he was a 24 journeyman pressman, did you ever have occasion to assign Joe 25 to the folder? 208 1 A. Many times, yes. 2 Q. In fact, Mr. Cox, didn't Joe come to you back in 3 those days and ask for assignments on the folder? 4 A. Yes, he did. 5 Q. He was competent at it? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. It was a job of some prestige? 8 A. It had some rewards other than the money, yes. 9 Q. It had financial rewards? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And had the prestige of someone who had 12 accomplished a relatively difficult task? 13 A. That's true. 14 Q. And it was a stressful job and was generally 15 something that required some training, did it not? 16 A. It required a lot of training. Of course, the 17 stressful part would be a matter of the individual. I worked 18 the folder for a number of years and it was not stressful to 19 me, but that's -- it may have been stressful to other people. 20 Q. But as I understand it, in the mid '80s, it was 21 not unusual for particular pressmen to advise that working the 22 folder was stressful to them? 23 A. I think that's true. 24 Q. It wasn't something that was peculiar to Joe 25 Wesbecker? 209 1 A. Not particularly. About half of our people at 2 that time worked on the folder because we had four-man crews 3 and two of those people worked on the folder, so about half or 4 a little better than half of our people out of necessity had 5 to work on the folder. 6 Q. And would it be accurate to state that those 7 people who were assigned to the folder by the company were 8 generally assigned by the foremen? 9 A. They were assigned by the foremen. 10 Q. In fact, did I understand you correctly, 11 Mr. Cox, that you really didn't have -- when you were the 12 pressroom superintendent back in '86 and '87, when this stress 13 was going on, you actually didn't have the responsibility of 14 assigning someone to a particular job or on a particular 15 press; is that right? 16 A. That's true. 17 Q. That was the responsibility of the foremen? 18 A. That's true. 19 Q. And could you have told a foreman, "I direct you 20 not to let Joe Wesbecker work on the folder," as a pressroom 21 superintendent? 22 A. I could have done that, yes. 23 Q. All right. Why didn't you do that, sir? 24 A. Well, because, as I stated previously, about 25 half of our people that were assigned in the pressroom out of 210 1 necessity had to work on the folder. And if I had 2 accommodated Joe Wesbecker the right to not ever work on the 3 folder and, that is, if I had given him a letter that says he 4 would never, ever have to work on the folder, then if somebody 5 else didn't want to work on the folder I would have had to 6 accommodate them the same way, and I simply couldn't do that. 7 Q. Was that because you were particularly mad at 8 Joe Wesbecker? 9 A. No, sir. 10 Q. Was that because you were trying to do your job 11 as a pressroom superintendent to assign people to the folder 12 generally that could operate the folder? 13 A. We were just trying to do our job and operate 14 the pressroom. We in fact did not assign Joe Wesbecker to 15 work on the folder after sometime in 1986. 16 Q. I was going to ask you, sir, if you made an 17 investigation when the EEOC complaint came down, personally, 18 yourself, concerning whether or not Mr. Wesbecker had been 19 assigned to the folder. 20 A. Yes, sir; I did. 21 Q. And what did that investigation reveal, sir? 22 A. I could not find any evidence. And I did not go 23 back past I believe September of 1986, so I don't know how far 24 back that he worked the folder, but I did go back at least 25 that far and I could not find any evidence where he ever 211 1 worked on a folder after that. 2 Q. All right. If it had been a perfect world, 3 would you have had any objections to giving Joe this kind of 4 letter? I mean, if it were just to personally accommodate him 5 and that's all you had to do in your job responsibilities, 6 Mr. Cox -- 7 A. No, I wouldn't have cared one way or another. 8 If he was the only individual that was going to be concerned 9 with this one way or another, it wouldn't have made any 10 difference to me. 11 Q. Did you ever have any grudge against Joseph 12 Wesbecker? 13 A. No, sir. We never had an argument. 14 Q. Were you ever attempting to discriminate against 15 him by virtue of his mental illness? 16 A. No, sir. 17 Q. In all the years from 1971 until 1989, did you 18 ever have an argument with Joseph Wesbecker? 19 A. No, sir. Never. 20 Q. Did you ever have cross words with Joseph 21 Wesbecker? 22 A. No, sir. 23 Q. Did you ever feel threatened by Joseph 24 Wesbecker? 25 A. I didn't really feel threatened by Joseph 212 1 Wesbecker. I feel somewhat uncomfortable because I didn't 2 particularly like having somebody that worked there in the 3 building that I knew had some animosity toward me, and the 4 fact that sometimes he wouldn't speak to me or didn't want to 5 have a personal conversation with me, I didn't really 6 particularly like that. 7 Q. But as far as being afraid of him where you 8 wouldn't go around him, was that ever the case, sir? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Is that because you're some macho tough guy, 11 Mr. Cox? 12 A. No, sir. 13 Q. Or is it because you really didn't feel really 14 threatened by Joseph Wesbecker? 15 A. I really didn't feel threatened. 16 Q. Now, what in particular about this story that 17 Mr. Lucas reported to Mr. Popham that Mr. Popham reported to 18 you about a gun on the premises in the possession of Mr. 19 Wesbecker, why didn't that give you a lot of concern, sir? 20 A. Well, I'm really not sure why it didn't. In 21 looking back on it now, I probably should have pursued it a 22 lot farther but, you know, hindsight is always 20/20. 23 Q. I'm talking about at the time when this occurred 24 in '86 or '87. I know in hindsight that we all know this 25 tragedy occurred, but is there any relationship to that gun at 213 1 that time and this slaughter of 20 people that occurred two 2 and a half years later? 3 MR. STOPHER: Objection, Your Honor. That calls 4 for an opinion. 5 JUDGE POTTER: He can answer it if he has an 6 answer. 7 A. I really don't -- I really don't know. I mean, 8 that's -- I just don't know. 9 Q. What was it about the story in 1986 about Joseph 10 Wesbecker having a gun at Standard Gravure that didn't cause 11 you that much concern? Was it the fact that it had been 12 reported by Mr. Lucas? 13 A. Well, that had something to do with it. 14 Q. Was it the fact that you heard about it some 15 months after the event allegedly occurred? 16 A. I heard about it sometime after it occurred and 17 I wasn't sure what the time period was, but I knew that the 18 story had occurred sometime in the past. 19 Q. Did you feel that if you had been in danger and 20 that there was in fact going to really be something that would 21 have happened to you, it would have probably already happened? 22 A. That's pretty much the way that I looked at it. 23 He had -- 24 Q. Did you -- I didn't mean to cut you off. 25 A. He had a number of opportunities to do 214 1 something. He did, in fact, live right down the street from 2 me and he knew exactly where I lived, so he had numerous 3 opportunities. 4 Q. Did you have -- the point is, did you really 5 consider Joseph Wesbecker back in '86 and '87, even after you 6 had been advised he had a gun on the premises and had a 7 complaint against you, did you really consider him a violent 8 individual? 9 A. No, I did not. 10 Q. Did you ever consider Joseph Wesbecker a violent 11 individual up to September 14th, 1989, Mr. Cox? 12 A. No, sir; I didn't. 13 Q. And you had known him how long, 16 years? 14 A. Well, since 1971 when he started working there. 15 Q. So that would be 19 years? 16 A. Well, whatever that is. 17 Q. Do you recall any hostility that Mr. Joe 18 Wesbecker ever expressed toward his former wife or her new 19 husband, I believe his name is Chesser? 20 A. No, sir. I don't specifically know anything 21 about that. I knew that he had gone through a particularly 22 bitter divorce, but I never did really hear any of the 23 details. 24 Q. Did you know that he had been married a second 25 time? 215 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And did you know anything about factually what 3 had occurred in that marriage? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Did you know anything about any problems that 6 Mr. Wesbecker might have been having at home with his 7 children? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Was there anything up to September 14th, 1989, 10 that would have prevented Joseph Wesbecker physically coming 11 to you and doing something to you? 12 A. No, I don't think so. 13 Q. Now, when you had this meeting with Mr. 14 Throneberry and Mr. McCall concerning the incident that 15 occurred in '86 or '87 -- and what's your best recollection, 16 was it probably '87, since it was after the EEOC complaint? 17 A. Probably. And I'm not sure whether it was 18 before or after the EEOC complaint. I'm just not sure what 19 the time frame was. 20 Q. Why didn't you ask for personal protection? For 21 the same reasons that we've already discussed? 22 A. Well, certainly. You know, he could have -- if 23 Joe Wesbecker had chosen to, he could have gotten to me at any 24 time, in the pressroom, out of the pressroom. I just didn't 25 think that there was anybody that could guard a family 216 1 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. 2 Q. And you didn't feel he was that violent, either, 3 did you? 4 A. I just didn't think he was that violent. 5 Q. He lived, what, two blocks down from you? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And if he would have wanted you, I guess he 8 could have gotten you, couldn't he? 9 A. I'm sure he could have. 10 Q. The second threat concerning the model airplane; 11 do you recall that, sir? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. Or the airplane? 14 A. I recall it, yes. 15 Q. Did you take from Mr. Lucas's discussion that 16 Mr. Wesbecker was going to fly as a pilot the airplane into 17 the solvent recovery system or was going to fly a model 18 airplane into the solvent recovery system? 19 A. Actually, I think Lucas talked about both. When 20 he first reported it, he said that Joe Wesbecker was going to 21 fly an airplane into the solvent recovery system. He didn't 22 elaborate whether he was going to fly it himself or it was 23 going to be a model airplane or what it was. The terminology 24 model airplane may have come up in the discussion, I don't 25 remember. 217 1 Q. Or could it have been something that since this 2 thing has been asked over and over in the press and the media 3 since this tragedy occurred, something that you just picked 4 up, the model airplane part of it? 5 A. I don't remember. 6 Q. Again you discounted that threat? 7 A. Yes. Yes. 8 Q. Based on the fact that -- well, let me pin this 9 down. You testified that this was around the first of August? 10 A. The best that I remember. 11 Q. But in your deposition you said it was two or 12 three weeks prior to the shooting, which happened on September 13 14th? 14 A. That's possible. As I said previously, I don't 15 remember exactly the time frame. 16 Q. Would it be more likely that it would have been 17 two or three weeks before September 14th since it was fresher 18 in your mind at that time? 19 A. I just don't remember, sir. 20 Q. All right. Whenever it was, it would have been 21 when Mr. Lucas came to you? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And if Mr. Lucas had a diary or a recording of 24 that meeting, that would probably pin that down? 25 A. Well, it may. Yes, it may. 218 1 Q. Did you make any notes in connection with that 2 meeting, sir? 3 A. No, sir. 4 Q. Do you know of anybody at Standard Gravure 5 management that had made any notes in connection with that? 6 A. Not that I'm aware of. 7 Q. And did you consider that there was anything 8 explosive about the solvent recovery system? Would that have 9 even exploded had you flown an airplane into it? 10 A. Well, I'm really not familiar enough with the 11 solvent recovery system to comment on that, although it was my 12 understanding that it would not, but I really don't know about 13 that. 14 Q. But, in any event, I believe you testified in 15 your deposition that you thought the story was bizarre and not 16 credible and didn't have any relationship to reality? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. What was bizarre about it was the manner in 19 which it was going to occur? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. What was not credible about it was I assume Mr. 22 Lucas's past history of exaggerating complaints and 23 situations? 24 A. That was a part of it. 25 Q. It didn't have any relationship to reality? 219 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. Because you knew Joe Wesbecker? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. You knew he was off work at the time? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. Right? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. You knew that he was on long-term disability and 9 this is something that he wanted? 10 A. I'm sorry. I don't understand. 11 Q. You knew that Joseph Wesbecker at the time you 12 heard this threat was on long-term disability? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And that you knew that this had been something 15 he had wanted? 16 A. I knew that he had wanted to get out of work and 17 I had heard him previously make some comments about that. 18 Q. About getting off work? 19 A. About getting out of the job on some type of an 20 early retirement. I had heard him make that comment in 21 previous years. 22 Q. As something he wanted? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And he had received that? 25 A. Yes. 220 1 Q. Now, when you heard this story about this 2 threat, did you know that Mr. Wesbecker was on Prozac at the 3 time he saw Mr. Lucas and the story was related? 4 MR. STOPHER: Objection, Your Honor. 5 JUDGE POTTER: Overruled. 6 A. No, sir; I didn't. 7 JUDGE POTTER: Anything else, Mr. Smith? 8 MR. SMITH: Can I look at my notes a second? 9 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. 10 MR. SMITH: That's it, Your Honor. 11 MR. STOPHER: Nothing further, Your Honor. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much, sir. You 13 may step down. 14 Ladies and gentlemen, we're going to take the 15 afternoon recess. As I've mentioned to you-all, don't talk 16 about the case with each other or let anybody communicate with 17 you about it. Do not form or express any opinions about it. 18 We'll take a 15-minute recess. 19 (RECESS) 20 SHERIFF CECIL: The jury is entering. All 21 jurors are present. 22 JUDGE POTTER: Please be seated. 23 Mr. Stopher, do you want to call your next 24 witness? 25 MR. STOPHER: Yes, Your Honor. We call Danny 221 1 West. 2 JUDGE POTTER: Sir, would you step up here and 3 raise your right hand, please. 4 5 DANNY WEST, after first being duly sworn, was 6 examined and testified as follows: 7 8 JUDGE POTTER: Would you walk around here and 9 have a seat there in the jury box (sic). State your name 10 loudly and clearly for everybody and then spell your first and 11 last names. 12 MR. WEST: Danny Lee West, D-A-N-N-Y, W-E-S-T. 13 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. If you'll keep your voice 14 up and answer Mr. Stopher's questions. 15 MR. WEST: Okay. 16 17 EXAMINATION ___________ 18 19 BY_MR._STOPHER: __ ___ _______ 20 Q. Mr. West, where do you live, sir? 21 A. 10375 Lower River Road, Louisville, Kentucky. 22 Q. And how old are you, sir? 23 A. Forty-six. 24 Q. And by whom are you employed? 25 A. Louisville Tin & Stove. 222 1 Q. Were you ever employed by Standard Gravure? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. And when did you work there? 4 A. From October '66 till the shutdown in '92. 5 Q. And during that period of time, sir, where 6 generally did you work? 7 A. In the etching room and the pressroom. 8 Q. Can you tell us approximately when you worked in 9 the pressroom? 10 A. I'd go out for press corrections. 11 Q. Were you a -- you were not a pressman? 12 A. No, sir. 13 Q. What was your title? 14 A. Engraver. 15 Q. And just briefly, sir, what's the relationship 16 between an engraver and a pressman? 17 A. If the pressmen needed color changes or a 18 cylinder fixed they would come in our department and get one 19 of us. 20 Q. And you worked in the photo engraving or the 21 engraving or the etching department? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. I hear it called all three, or I've heard it 24 called all three. 25 A. It's all three. 223 1 Q. Photo engraving, etching and engraving? 2 A. Etching room was the room it was in, but we 3 engraved in the etching room. 4 Q. The cylinders are what, sir? 5 A. What we print the magazines on. 6 Q. Do the cylinders go onto the press? 7 A. The cylinders go onto the press, yes. 8 Q. And they have the image that is transferred onto 9 the paper? 10 A. Right. 11 Q. All right, sir. Now, sir, being an engraver and 12 working in the etching department -- were you, first of all, 13 in Area One or in Area Two or did you switch back and forth? 14 A. Switched back and forth. 15 Q. From time to time, sir, did you have an occasion 16 to work with Joseph Wesbecker? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. And what is your recollection about him as a 19 worker? 20 A. Either he would come and get me or somebody else 21 would if they needed something done. He seemed like a 22 nervous-type person to me. 23 Q. How so? 24 A. He didn't like making eye contact when he was 25 talking to you. If he wanted something done he didn't talk a 224 1 whole lot, he just kind of stood there and did what he had to 2 do and went on. If I needed a magazine to check on the color 3 that I already finished, once they started the press back up 4 and I'd go back and check on the color, and I'd just ask him 5 for a magazine and wait on it a little bit, so I'd go over and 6 get it myself. 7 Q. Being around the pressroom and around him, sir, 8 did people sometimes joke or tease among themselves? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. What about Joseph Wesbecker? 11 A. They called him some names from time to time. 12 Q. What sorts of things did they call him, sir? 13 Did they say them to his face? 14 A. Actually to his face that I saw, no. To me they 15 would tease him behind his back. 16 Q. What kinds of things would they say behind his 17 back? 18 A. Sexpecker, something like that, or say that he 19 was going crazy or was crazy. 20 Q. Who would say those kinds of things; were they 21 pressmen? 22 A. Other pressmen. 23 Q. Did you ever see any notes or bulletins or 24 writings on a bulletin board about him? 25 A. Yes, sir. 225 1 Q. What did you see? 2 A. The ones, "If you need help," or something like 3 that, "call Joseph Wesbecker," and gave the number, 589, 582, 4 whatever it was, NUTS. 5 Q. Where was that sign posted? 6 A. That was in the pressroom break room. 7 Q. In addition to that writing about him, sir, were 8 there writings on the walls and in the locker rooms and in the 9 pressroom break rooms and that sort of thing? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. What do you recall about that writing or 12 writings? 13 A. There was messages against Shea, against McCall, 14 hit lists on the wall above the urinal. 15 Q. There was a what above the urinal? 16 A. A hit list. 17 Q. A hit list? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. Whose name or names were on the hit list? 20 A. Shea, McCall, Cox. 21 Q. What sorts of drawings or graffiti was there 22 about Shea? 23 A. Usually obscene. 24 Q. Usually obscene? 25 A. (Nods head affirmatively). 226 1 Q. Things that you'd rather not repeat? 2 A. Yes, sir. Well, somebody mimeographed an 3 airplane and showed a picture of the plane blowing up. 4 Another one was the plane looked like a penis and it was 5 blowing up. 6 Q. What about McCall? 7 A. I didn't see anything directly to him, no. 8 Q. What about Cox? 9 A. Other than the Cox Sucks or something like that; 10 you would see that on quite a few walls. 11 Q. Were these items written there before the 12 shootings occurred or after the shootings occurred? 13 A. Before. 14 Q. They were there before? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. Including the hit list? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. Mr. West, what was the attitude in the pressroom 19 and in the etching room after Shea took over? 20 A. Low. 21 Q. How do you mean low, sir? 22 A. People used to -- there was more of a family 23 atmosphere; once he took over, they were apprehensive about 24 what he was going to do. A lot of them thought he was only 25 buying the company so he could turn around and sell it in a 227 1 year or two and make more money. So morale was definitely 2 low. 3 Q. Did Joe Wesbecker ever talk with you about what 4 he thought about Shea or the way he was being treated? 5 A. I knew he was upset with personnel for some 6 reason about some kind of a long-term disability thing. I had 7 no idea why he wanted it or anything like that. 8 Q. Did you ever see him with any papers? 9 Q. Yes, sir. He walked through our department one 10 time from personnel. 11 Q. And what did you recall about that incident? 12 A. He was upset, shaking his head and mumbling 13 something to hisself. 14 Q. What did he have with him? 15 A. It was papers in like a manila-type envelope. 16 Q. Thank you, sir; that's all I have. 17 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith or Ms. Zettler? 18 MS. ZETTLER: It's my turn, Judge. 19 20 EXAMINATION ___________ 21 22 BY_MS._ZETTLER: __ ___ _______ 23 Q. Mr. West, isn't it true that at the time you 24 gave your deposition you stated you didn't recall seeing any 25 phone number after the "Call Joe Wesbecker"? 228 1 A. I didn't remember the numbers in front of the 2 N-U-T-S. I didn't know if it was 582, 583, 587, but Joseph 3 Wesbecker's name was on the copy there on the bulletin board. 4 Q. Isn't it true that all you remembered was, 5 "Problems? Call Joe Wesbecker"? 6 A. "Problems? Call Joe Wesbecker," and then it had 7 the number prefix -- I didn't remember that -- but it said 8 NUTS on it. 9 Q. Do you remember giving your deposition in this 10 case? 11 A. Yes, ma'am; I did. 12 Q. Do you remember being asked the following 13 question and answer? 14 MR. STOPHER: What page are we on. 15 MS. ZETTLER: I'm sorry. Page 22, Line 24. 16 "Do you recall what it said, sir? 17 "Answer: I just remember I was walking in there 18 to get the pressroom foreman and looked on the board and it 19 said, 'Call Joe Wesbecker.' I just glanced up and saw it and 20 went on about the problem. I usually had work on my mind when 21 I went to work." Do you remember giving that answer? 22 A. Yes, ma'am; I do. 23 Q. Okay. Now, this graffiti that you saw in the 24 plant, you have no idea whether or not that was something that 25 was written by Joe Wesbecker or somebody else, do you? 229 1 A. No, ma'am. 2 Q. Did you ever personally hear Joe Wesbecker talk 3 about Mike Shea to your face? 4 A. To my face, no. 5 Q. Okay. In fact, you overheard a conversation 6 while you were working on one of the presses that Mr. 7 Wesbecker was working on; correct? 8 A. Yes, ma'am. 9 Q. And you heard two people talking; correct? 10 A. Yes, ma'am. 11 Q. And one of the people talking came by and said 12 something negative about Shea; correct? 13 A. Yes, ma'am. 14 Q. And somebody else responded, "Well, he's just an 15 SOB; don't worry about it." 16 A. That was Wesbecker that responded to the 17 comment. 18 Q. He said, "Oh, he's just an SOB; don't worry 19 about it." Correct? 20 A. Yes, ma'am. 21 Q. That's all I have. Thank you. 22 23 24 25 230 1 FURTHER_EXAMINATION _______ ___________ 2 3 BY_MR._STOPHER: __ ___ _______ 4 Q. Mr. West, just one other question, sir. Did you 5 ever see Joe Wesbecker get upset or react to the teasing? 6 MS. ZETTLER: Your Honor. That's beyond cross. 7 JUDGE POTTER: Sustained. 8 MR. STOPHER: That's all then, sir. 9 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much, sir. You 10 may step down; you're excused. 11 Mr. Stopher, you want to call your next witness? 12 MR. STOPHER: Yes, Your Honor. We will read the 13 deposition of Margaret Kannapel. 14 JUDGE POTTER: Ladies and gentlemen, as I've 15 mentioned to you-all before, a deposition is sworn testimony. 16 It's taken outside the courtroom. A Court Reporter is present 17 or sometimes it's videotaped. Under certain circumstances a 18 transcript of that testimony can be read to you or the 19 videotape played for you. In this particular case the 20 transcript is going to be read. You will treat this evidence 21 just the way you would as if Ms. Kannapel were here testifying 22 live. 23 Mr. Stopher. 24 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, this is the deposition 25 of Margaret Colleen Kannapel; it was taken at 200 West Court 231 1 Street, Huntsville, Alabama, June 22, 1993. 2 3 EXAMINATION ___________ 4 5 BY_MR._STOPHER: __ ___ _______ 6 Q. Would you state your full name for us, please. 7 A. Okay. It's Margaret, M-A-R-G-A-R-E-T; Colleen, 8 C-O-L-L-E-E-N; Montgomery is my maiden name, M-O-N-T- 9 G-O-M-E-R-Y; and my last name is Kannapel, K-A-N-N-A-P-E-L. 10 Q. You pronounce it Kannapel? 11 A. Just like a can of apples; that's the spelling. 12 Q. Fair enough. All right. Where do you presently 13 live? 14 A. 10049 Torino, T-O-R-I-N-O, Drive, Huntsville, 15 Alabama 35803. 16 Q. And, Ms. Kannapel, how old are you? 17 A. I'm 58. 18 Q. And date of birth? 19 A. April 7th, 1935. 20 Q. And Social Security number? 21 A. 400-46-1636. 22 Q. And by whom are you employed? 23 A. I am not employed. 24 Q. And who do you live with at the address on 25 Torino Drive? 232 1 A. I live alone. 2 Q. It's my understanding that you were married at 3 one time and your husband is deceased; am I correct? 4 A. Correct. 5 Q. His name was Gilbert; is that accurate? 6 A. G-I-L-B-E-R-T. 7 Q. And approximately when was he deceased? 8 A. November 7th, 1991. 9 Q. All right. Ms. Kannapel, tell us a little bit 10 about your personal background. I know that you were born in 11 the Montgomery family in Louisville, Kentucky. 12 A. No. That's incorrect. 13 Q. In Springfield? 14 A. No. That's incorrect. I was born in 15 Bloomington, Indiana. 16 Q. You are the daughter of John T. Montgomery and 17 Martha Montgomery? 18 A. No. That's incorrect. 19 Q. Nancy Montgomery? 20 A. Nancy Montgomery; correct. 21 Q. I'm sorry. I misspoke. And you were among the 22 youngest of how many children? Let's see, ten? 23 A. Well, actually, there were 11 children and 10 of 24 them survived. I'm number 7 down the line. 25 Q. You are between -- is it Mary Jewel McCarty? 233 1 A. Uh-huh. 2 Q. And Joseph Albert Montgomery? 3 A. Right. 4 Q. Mary Jewel is older than you and Joseph Albert 5 is younger? 6 A. Right. 7 Q. You were born in Bloomington, Indiana? 8 A. That's correct. 9 Q. Were your parents living there at that time? 10 A. Yes. Well, obviously my mother was. 11 Q. And I was just wondering if you were just there 12 on a temporary visit or something at the time of your birth. 13 A. No. My father was working there. 14 Q. How long after your birth, approximately, did 15 you live in Bloomington? 16 A. I don't know. I have no knowledge of that. 17 Q. Did you ever go to school in Bloomington? 18 A. No. 19 Q. By the time you were in the first grade you were 20 in Louisville; is that correct? 21 A. Correct. Yes. 22 Q. And did you go to school in the Louisville area? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And where did you go to elementary school and so 25 forth? 234 1 A. Well, I started out with kindergarten at 2 Salsbury School. I went to Sacred Heart School, first grade. 3 Let's see. I'm trying to think here. I went to St. Francis. 4 Let's see. Well, from Sacred Heart, that was the first grade. 5 Well, you'll have to give me time to think. I wasn't prepared 6 for this. 7 Q. Okay. 8 A. Well, I know I graduated from St. Francis of 9 Rome from the eighth grade, so maybe if I work my way 10 backwards. 11 Q. Where did you go to high school? 12 A. Ursuline Academy. 13 Q. For high school? 14 A. Yes. I graduated from Ursuline Academy, 15 806 East Chestnut. It's not there anymore. I went to St. 16 Assisi School for a while, grade school, and Sacred Heart, and 17 I think that's it. To the best of my knowledge, that's all. 18 I may have left one grade school out, but so what. 19 Q. When did you graduate from Ursuline? 20 A. 1953. 21 Q. And what did you do after you graduated from 22 Ursuline? 23 A. I worked. I did not go to college. 24 Q. Where did you work? 25 A. I worked for the Kentucky -- well, I worked for 235 1 a couple of accountants for a very short while, and then I 2 worked at the Kentucky State Highway Department. And then I 3 ended up working at the Louisville Medical Depot in the 4 finance and accounting office for the government, and that's 5 where I was working when I got married. To the best of my 6 recollection, that's it. 7 Q. What sort of work did you do for the Kentucky 8 State Highway Department? 9 A. I guess my title was probably clerk; I don't 10 really remember. But it was just a number of things, really: 11 typing, took care of petty cash for a while, issued permits 12 when the main girl wasn't available, and just things like 13 that. 14 Q. What did you do for the Louisville Medical 15 Depot? 16 A. Essentially pretty much the same thing. I 17 worked in finance and accounting and was into accounts payable 18 for a while. I worked on the Vero-Sensomatic bookkeeping 19 machine for a while, just filing, just things like that. I 20 really wasn't worth a whole lot. I didn't have a big job. 21 Q. And you married Mr. Kannapel in what year? 22 A. 1958. 23 Q. And did you then move to Huntsville? 24 A. No. We moved to Inglewood, California. 25 Q. In 1958? 236 1 A. We got married on June 7th, which was a 2 Saturday; that Wednesday, we moved to California, 1958, yes. 3 Q. Have you lived in Louisville since 1958? 4 A. No, I have not. 5 Q. Ms. Kannapel, let me go back with you. If I 6 understand correctly, you are approximately seven years older 7 than Joseph Wesbecker; is that accurate? 8 A. I don't recall how old Joey was. 9 Q. You were born in 1935 and he was born in 1942, 10 so by my math you are only about seven years older than he is; 11 is that correct? 12 A. That's correct then. 13 Q. When you were a young girl did you live in the 14 same household with him? 15 A. To the best of my recollection, he lived with us 16 when we lived on Pope Street, which the address is 285 North 17 Pope in Louisville. He lived with us then, and I believe that 18 he lived with us when -- well, I can't answer that because I 19 don't really remember. 20 I think he may have lived with us when we lived 21 on 22nd Street. We lived at 811 South 22nd for a while and I 22 think he lived with us then, but I can't say. I only remember 23 him being there on Pope Street for a while. 24 Q. And about how old was he when he came to live 25 with the Montgomery household? 237 1 A. Are you talking about on Pope Street or -- 2 Q. Yes, ma'am. I thought that's where you told 3 me -- 4 A. Well, I told you I didn't remember where he 5 lived -- if he lived with us before. If he did, it was when I 6 was very young. 7 Q. Well, I thought you told me he lived with you at 8 285 Pope Street? 9 A. Yes, he did. 10 Q. How old was he when he lived with you there? 11 A. Well, what I'm trying to get across is the fact 12 that he may have lived with us on 22nd Street. I don't 13 remember him there, but he might have been. 14 Q. How old was he? 15 A. But on Pope Street I was 13, so you say he's 7 16 years younger than me so he would be 6. 17 Q. How did he happen to come live with you? 18 A. Well, it wasn't financial. 19 Q. How did he happen to come live with you? 20 A. I don't know. I can't tell you any specific 21 reasons. 22 Q. Who was his mother? 23 A. His mother is my sister Martha. 24 Q. Did she live with you? 25 A. You need to give me time to think about this. 238 1 I'm trying to think why did they come to live with us. I 2 really don't have a direct knowledge of that. I never heard 3 her say exactly why she was there, you know. 4 Q. Did your sister Martha live there, also? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Was there ever a time that he lived in the 7 Montgomery household and his mother did not? 8 A. I think there may have been a time after I left 9 home, but I don't have any direct knowledge of that. I didn't 10 live there. 11 Q. What do you know about that incident? 12 A. You mean when he lived there? 13 Q. And his mother did not. 14 A. I don't have any direct knowledge of any of 15 that, really. I wasn't there when anything happened. 16 Q. What have you heard about it? 17 A. I really -- you have to understand I'm in 18 California trying to raise children and he's in Louisville, so 19 I really was not close to him. The only thing I can tell 20 you -- well, now, I do recall an incident I probably should 21 tell you about. When we lived on Burnett, it was 2926 West 22 Burnett where we lived, and I believe that's where we lived to 23 the best of my recollection, and I went down with my sister to 24 get Joey out of jail because he allegedly had stolen a car, 25 but he was not living with us then. He did not live with us 239 1 at that time, so as far as the time when he lived in the 2 family and his mother didn't, I don't recall ever living there 3 at that time. 4 Q. Okay. And of course Nancy Smith Montgomery was 5 there. She was the head of the household; right? 6 A. My mother, yes. 7 Q. And your father was deceased; correct? 8 A. Correct. He was killed in 1944. 9 Q. And in those early days did Joe Wesbecker go to 10 school with you? 11 A. With me? 12 Q. Yes, ma'am. 13 A. Well, he was only six, so obviously he didn't go 14 with me. He wasn't -- I don't think he was in school. I 15 don't really recall. 16 Q. You don't recall him going to school? 17 A. Hunh-uh. 18 Q. Is that a no? 19 A. To be honest with you, I don't really remember a 20 lot about my nephew in those days. 21 Q. What do you remember about him? 22 A. Well, I mean, you'll have to ask me a specific 23 question. 24 Q. What sort of a person was he in those days? 25 A. Well, do I have to answer that question? 240 1 Q. Yes, ma'am. 2 A. Well, I was afraid of Joey. Joe was hard to 3 handle. He was very spoiled, had a very bad temper. Now, 4 we're talking about the specific time when he lived there. 5 I'm not talking about before or afterwards because I have no 6 direct knowledge. 7 Q. That's all I'm interested in is what you know 8 about him. 9 A. I left him alone pretty much. That's why I 10 don't remember very much about him. 11 Q. Why were you afraid of him? 12 A. Because he had quite a temper. 13 Q. And were there occasions when he would lose his 14 temper? 15 A. Oh, yes. Of course, how would I know he had a 16 temper if he didn't lose it, you know. 17 Q. What sorts of things would make him lose his 18 temper? 19 A. Well, I don't really know. 20 Q. When he would lose his temper in those days, 21 what would he do? 22 A. Well, I'm trying to think if he ever beat me up. 23 I don't think he ever did anything like that to me so I can 24 only answer with what, you know -- what was your question? 25 I'm trying to answer this the right way. 241 1 Q. When he would lose his temper, what would he do? 2 A. Mainly he would just throw a fit, but-- 3 Q. Did he ever -- 4 A. But I do recall he mainly had trouble with my 5 sister Rosie. He was very jealous of Rosie, and I do recall 6 one incident where he had a knife after her, threatening her. 7 Q. How old was he at that time? 8 A. He was very young. Of course, I can't really 9 say because -- I have to keep saying I don't remember that 10 much about him. 11 Q. Why was he jealous of Rosie? 12 A. Well, why are people jealous of each other? You 13 don't really know. It could be anything. 14 Q. She was just about his age; isn't that right? 15 A. She was older, a little older. Let's see, she 16 was born in '44, I believe, so she was two years older. 17 Q. Do you know the exact date of her birth? 18 A. November 15. 19 Q. '44? 20 A. 1944. No, she was born -- no. No. Wait a 21 minute. She was born in '43 in November before my father was 22 killed in March. My father was killed March 23, 1944, and so 23 she was born November 15. Now, there's some dispute as to her 24 real birthday. Some people say it's the 13th of November. 25 Q. Maybe that explains why I haven't been able to 242 1 get it so far. 2 A. Yeah. It's either the 13th or the 15th, and I 3 never really saw a birth certificate. 4 Q. And she died at about age 30? 5 A. She was 29, as well as I remember. She died in 6 1973. 7 Q. I got us off the track there and I apologize. 8 A. That's okay. 9 Q. You mentioned to me that your recollection of 10 Joe Wesbecker among other things was that he was spoiled. Did 11 I understand you correctly? 12 A. Yes. Very spoiled. 13 Q. Who spoiled him? 14 A. His mother. 15 Q. How did she do that? 16 A. Well, I'm not a psychiatrist or anything like 17 that. I don't know how you really what you call spoiling, but 18 what I called spoiling was the fact that when he would get 19 angry or anything, she would come in and say, "You leave him 20 alone. Don't cause him any trouble." So he knew that he 21 could get away with pretty much what he wanted from his 22 mother. So that's my idea of spoiling. Now, everybody has 23 their own different -- 24 Q. In other words, she would protect him from the 25 other people who would be around in the household? 243 1 A. Absolutely. Even though I would say the 2 majority of the time he was to blame for whatever was going 3 on. 4 Q. Ms. Kannapel, did anyone ever discipline him 5 when he got out of line? 6 A. I'm sure there's been incidents where maybe my 7 brothers grabbed him and whopped him, but I didn't -- I don't 8 recall anything. My mother could -- I loved my mother. He 9 was just crazy about my mother and so she could control him. 10 But I don't know that she whipped him much or anything like 11 that. She just pretty much said, "Joe, now, you know you 12 can't do that," so he just wouldn't do it. My mother is a 13 very holy woman. 14 Q. Who was in charge -- now, I realize there wasn't 15 an organizational chart, but who was in charge of bringing him 16 up? Was it your mother or was it his mother, Martha? 17 A. Well, obviously it was my sister Martha in 18 charge; that's his mother. But you are asking me who did 19 bring him up; right? 20 Q. Yes, ma'am. 21 A. Well, my mother had a big influence on this, but 22 I can't say she actually raised him, you know, but she was 23 very influential. 24 Q. Did Joe Wesbecker mind his mother or his 25 grandmother? 244 1 A. He pretty much minded my mother, his 2 grandmother. 3 Q. Would he take direction and instruction from his 4 own mother? 5 A. I'm sure that sometime during his life, yes, he 6 did. Probably when he was very young, sure. Well, that's my 7 answer because I can't say. Obviously he did at some time in 8 his life. But your question was did he take directions from 9 his mother or my mother, and I'm saying it was probably 10 sometimes my mother and sometimes his mother. 11 Q. Let me go back with you, and I apologize for 12 getting us off the track here a little bit. You mentioned to 13 me earlier that on one occasion Joe Wesbecker threatened your 14 sister Rosie with a knife? 15 A. Uh-huh. 16 Q. What do you recall about that? 17 A. Well, you have to remember he's only six or 18 seven. 19 Q. What do you recall about that incident? 20 A. That's just about it, that she ran in the 21 bathroom and locked the door. That's what I remember. 22 Q. What sort of a knife did he have? 23 A. I don't even recall. I think it was just a 24 small one, but I'm not sure. I just remember that I was 25 there, really. I don't recall. 245 1 Q. Was he punished for that? 2 A. I don't remember if he was or not. I mean, 3 these are things that you just normally wouldn't remember 4 unless -- you know, I don't know. 5 Q. Did he have any fights with anybody else inside 6 the family? 7 A. I don't recall. I don't recall any, but he may 8 have. Surely he must have. 9 Q. Did he have any fights with Joseph Albert? 10 A. I don't recall him fighting with Albert, but he 11 may have. I'm not saying that he didn't, but I just don't 12 recall it. 13 Q. Did he have any fights with people outside the 14 family? 15 A. I have no direct knowledge of that. I never saw 16 a fight. 17 Q. You have mentioned on a couple of occasions now 18 one incident that you recall that you did go to jail in 19 connection with Joe Wesbecker; is that correct? 20 A. Uh-huh. 21 Q. How old were you at that time, Ms. Kannapel? 22 A. Well, as I recall, I was working and it was 23 before I married, so I was between 18 and 23, somewhere in 24 there. And he lived on Bowling I believe at that time, 1746 25 Bowling. And he was running around with some kid named Pat 246 1 somebody. Let's see. I believe I was working at that time, 2 yeah, because I was driving. But I cannot give you the exact 3 age. 4 Q. Where were you living at the time? 5 A. I was living on Burnett, 2526 West Burnett. 6 Q. And who went to jail? 7 A. Well, that's questionable because I thought 8 Martha was with me and Ann said somebody else was with me. 9 Q. What do you recall? 10 A. Well, I have to stop and think about it. I tell 11 you what I really recall about the incident, not so much who 12 was with me or anything, was going in there. That was very 13 traumatic for me to be in there, to say the least, and having 14 to pick up my nephew. I remember there was a lady, a very 15 tall, heavyset lady sitting there and she had these two pieces 16 of tin foil, and so she proceeded to tell me what the children 17 had done. And I was very perturbed at that because of the 18 fact that, well, I knew my nephew and I knew that he was 19 capable, yes, of doing that, but he had not been proven 20 guilty. She was talking like he was very guilty, and so I 21 remembered saying to her, "Well, you know, you are not guilty 22 until you are proven guilty." And that's really what I 23 remember about the incident. That's the reason the other 24 things are hazy to me. I remember Pat's father, this boy that 25 was with Joey, his father coming in and saying, "I told you 247 1 you will never amount to anything." And my heart was with 2 child and with Joey, and so I don't remember. That's the 3 reason it was a very traumatic experience for me. I've never 4 been in jail; I've never even gotten a traffic ticket, so you 5 have to understand if I don't remember. But I guess it was 6 Ann. Ann said it was her, that she was with me. 7 Q. What time of the day or night did you go to 8 jail? 9 A. It was at night, about 11:00. I remember that. 10 Q. How long was Joe Wesbecker in jail? 11 A. I think he was -- he wasn't booked, as far as I 12 know. I think he was just there until we picked him up, I 13 believe. I don't know. 14 Q. What was he charged with doing? 15 A. Well, they said he had tried to steal a car. 16 Q. And do you know anything about whose car it was 17 or where it was or what occurred? 18 A. Yes. It was my understanding -- I wasn't there, 19 of course, but it was my understanding that Pat and Joey 20 were -- and I don't remember Pat's last name -- were in 21 Brown-Williamson parking lot, I believe, waiting for this 22 child's car, waiting for this child to get off from work, and 23 they were in his car. I don't recall the child's name; 24 anyway, it was a friend of Joey and Pat's. They were in the 25 car. I don't know how they got keys to the car but they 248 1 didn't break into the car. It's my understanding that they 2 didn't break into the car, but they were in the car just 3 waiting for this boy to get off from work. 4 Well, when he got off from work, the guard -- of 5 course, they had a guard house there and he noticed them being 6 there. When he got off from work, he denied that he had given 7 them permission to come in because he was going to be in 8 trouble. So that's what I was told, but, now, I wasn't there. 9 The police didn't tell me this; it was just from Joey, you 10 know, so you can form your own conclusions about that. I felt 11 like, yeah, he was telling the truth. Now, later on, he did 12 steal a car. 13 Q. He came to see you? 14 A. He brought my mother. He came to pick up my 15 mother. She was there helping me. 16 Q. How did he get to California? 17 A. He drove. 18 Q. I take it it was just a short period of time 19 that he was there? 20 A. Just came through there just maybe for a night 21 or two, just to pick up my mother because she had flown out to 22 be with me at the birth of my son, and so he came to pick her 23 up and take her back. 24 Q. And I assume that this was in connection with 25 the birth of your first son in 1958? 249 1 A. Right. The 28th of June. It was 1959 when he 2 was born; you said '58. 3 Q. I'm sorry. I meant '59. Had you ever seen him 4 at any other time after that? 5 A. Well, I'm sure I must have seen him at other 6 occasions, but the one I remember is when my nephew Tommy Webb 7 got married, he was there. 8 Q. And who is Tommy Webb? 9 A. That's my sister Nancy's son. 10 Q. Where was that wedding? 11 A. I don't remember. 12 Q. Was it in Louisville? 13 A. Well, it was in Louisville, yeah. I don't 14 remember the church. Well, it was probably Our Mother of 15 Sorrow is what I would imagine. 16 Q. And did you spend any time with Joe Wesbecker at 17 that event or was it just a very brief encounter? 18 A. Well, it was rather brief, but he came and sat 19 at the table with me. I was sitting with my sister Martha, 20 and at that time Joey was not speaking to his mother. And the 21 reason I remember the occasion is because when Martha got up 22 -- she was sitting at the end of the table, at the head of the 23 table. When she got up to go and get something to eat, he 24 came and sat down, which I thought was kind of -- you know, 25 here they are in the same room -- and talked to me until he 250 1 saw her coming back with the food, and then he left. So 2 that's the reason I remember that occasion, because it was 3 kind of -- to me, it was kind of silly that people would do 4 that to each other. 5 But I'm sure that I have seen him. After all, 6 he is my nephew, and he's been places where I have been. When 7 I would come into Louisville I would be at his house, but most 8 of the time he would be working. I would see his children and 9 his wife, you know. But to say that that's the only time -- I 10 mean, you know, I don't remember anything, you know, just that 11 one. 12 Q. Did he tell you why he would not speak to his 13 mother? 14 A. No. I didn't ask him. 15 Q. Was Joe Wesbecker at your mother's funeral? 16 A. Yes, he was. 17 Q. Did you talk to him at your mother's funeral? 18 A. No. My husband talked to him, but I didn't. I 19 intended to, but there just was so many people there, I didn't 20 get around to talking to him. 21 Q. Was Martha Wesbecker there? 22 A. I assume she was. I don't know. I guess she 23 was. 24 Q. Is that the last time you saw Joe Wesbecker? 25 A. Let's see. My mother died August 5th, 1989, 251 1 and -- 2 Q. According to the information I have, the funeral 3 was on August 9, 1989. 4 A. That's correct. 5 Q. And I believe it occurred at Springfield; am I 6 correct? 7 A. Well, actually she was buried from Ratterman 8 Funeral Home in Louisville. I mean, she was interred there, 9 but she was buried in Springfield. Well, I used the wrong 10 word there, but, anyway, figure it out. She was laid at 11 Ratterman. I said "interred," but she was laid out at 12 Ratterman and she was buried in Springfield. But to the best 13 of my recollection, that's the last time I saw Joey Wesbecker. 14 Now, I told you that I did not speak with him then, but that's 15 the last time that I recall that I saw him. Well, I'm pretty 16 sure that was it. 17 Q. Did you have any information as to how he 18 reacted or dealt with Nancy Montgomery's death? 19 A. Well, I didn't see him act any different. No, I 20 didn't. I don't have any information on that. 21 Q. Did you ever hear Joe Wesbecker talk about 22 Standard Gravure, the printing company? 23 A. Yes. At my nephew's wedding I asked him about 24 his work and what did he do, and he said they printed Parade 25 magazine. He was telling me different things about it, and he 252 1 said, "Well, this will help you. We make Parade magazine." 2 I said, "Oh, that's wonderful." 3 Q. Did he give you any other information about his 4 work? 5 A. No, nothing negative. 6 Q. Ms. Kannapel, is there any history of mental 7 illness in the Montgomery family, that you are aware of? 8 A. Are you talking about just my direct -- my 9 family or the whole Montgomery clan? 10 Q. Well, let's stick first of all with -- 11 A. Well, I have a brother, yes, who was diagnosed 12 schizophrenic. 13 Q. And that's Joseph Albert Montgomery? 14 A. That's correct. 15 MR. STOPHER: That's the end of the deposition, 16 Your Honor. Thank you very much. 17 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 18 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher, do you have a better 19 handle on the next one? Is this a good time to take a break? 20 MR. STOPHER: Yes, Your Honor. 21 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 22 JUDGE POTTER: Ladies and gentlemen, we're going 23 to take the evening recess. As I've mentioned to you-all 24 before, do not permit anybody to speak to or communicate with 25 you on any topic connected with this trial; do not get any 253 1 information about it from the television or the newspapers or 2 the radio; do not discuss it among yourselves or form or 3 express opinions about it. We'll stand in recess till 9:00 4 tomorrow morning. 5 (PROCEEDINGS TERMINATED THIS DATE AT 4:30 P.M.) 6 * * * 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 254 1 STATE OF KENTUCKY )( )( Sct. 2 COUNTY OF JEFFERSON )( 3 I, JULIA K. McBRIDE, Notary Public, State of 4 Kentucky at Large, hereby certify that the foregoing 5 Transcript of the Proceedings was taken at the time and place 6 stated in the caption; that the appearances were as set forth 7 in the caption; that prior to giving testimony the witnesses 8 were first duly sworn; that said testimony was taken down by 9 me in stenographic notes and thereafter reduced under my 10 supervision to the foregoing typewritten pages and that said 11 typewritten transcript is a true, accurate and complete record 12 of my stenographic notes so taken. 13 I further certify that I am not related by blood 14 or marriage to any of the parties hereto and that I have no 15 interest in the outcome of captioned case. 16 My commission as Notary Public expires 17 December 21, 1996. 18 Given under my hand this the__________day of 19 ______________________, 1994, at Louisville, Kentucky. 20 21 22 23 24 _____________________________ 25 NOTARY PUBLIC 255 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25