1 1 NO. 90-CI-06033 JEFFERSON CIRCUIT COURT DIVISION ONE 2 3 4 JOYCE FENTRESS, et al PLAINTIFFS 5 6 VS TRANSCRIPT_OF_THE_PROCEEDINGS __________ __ ___ ___________ 7 8 9 SHEA COMMUNICATIONS, et al DEFENDANTS 10 11 * * * 12 13 14 WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 2, 1994 15 VOLUME XXVIII 16 17 * * * 18 19 20 21 _____________________________________________________________ REPORTER: JULIA K. McBRIDE 22 Coulter, Shay, McBride & Rice 1221 Starks Building 23 455 South Fourth Avenue Louisville, Kentucky 40202 24 (502) 582-1627 FAX: (502) 587-6299 25 2 1 I_N_D_E_X _ _ _ _ _ 2 WITNESS: DONALD_FRAZIER _______ ______ _______ 3 By Mr. Stopher........................................... 5 By Mr. Smith............................................. 36 4 WITNESS: JAMES_LUCAS _______ _____ _____ 5 By Mr. Stopher........................................... 70 6 By Mr. Smith.............................................136 By Mr. Stopher...........................................169 7 WITNESS: GERALD_GRIFFIN _______ ______ _______ 8 By Mr. Stopher...........................................176 9 By Ms. Zettler...........................................182 By Mr. Stopher...........................................186 10 WITNESS: CHARLES_METTEN _______ _______ ______ 11 By Mr. Stopher...........................................188 12 By Mr. Smith.............................................198 13 WITNESS: CHARLES_MILLER _______ _______ ______ 14 By Mr. Stopher...........................................206 By Ms. Zettler...........................................215 15 * * * 16 Hearing in Chambers......................................219 17 Reporter's Certificate...................................224 18 * * * 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 1 2 A_P_P_E_A_R_A_N_C_E_S _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 3 4 FOR THE PLAINTIFFS: 5 PAUL L. SMITH Suite 745 6 Campbell Center II 8150 North Central Expressway 7 Dallas, Texas 75206 8 NANCY ZETTLER 1405 West Norwell Lane 9 Schaumburg, Illinois 60193 10 IRVIN D. FOLEY Rubin, Hays & Foley 11 300 South, First Trust Centre Louisville, Kentucky 40202 12 13 FOR THE DEFENDANT: 14 EDWARD H. STOPHER Boehl, Stopher & Graves 15 2300 Providian Center Louisville, Kentucky 40202 16 JOE C. FREEMAN, JR. 17 LAWRENCE J. MYERS Freeman & Hawkins 18 4000 One Peachtree Center 303 Peachtree Street, N.E. 19 Atlanta, Georgia 30308 20 * * * 21 22 23 24 25 4 1 The Transcript of the Proceedings, taken before 2 The Honorable John Potter in the Multipurpose Courtroom, Old 3 Jail Office Building, Louisville, Kentucky, commencing on 4 Wednesday, November 2, 1994, at approximately 9:05 A.M., said 5 proceedings occurred as follows: 6 7 * * * 8 9 SHERIFF CECIL: All rise. The Honorable Judge 10 John Potter is now presiding. All jurors are present. Court 11 is now in session. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Please be seated. Ladies and 13 gentlemen of the jury, have any of you-all had any difficulty 14 observing my admonition about not getting information except 15 from the witness stand? 16 Ms. Morrison, have you had any problems? 17 JUROR MORRISON: No, sir; I haven't. 18 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Thank you very much. 19 Mr. Stopher, do you want to call your first 20 witness of today. 21 MR. STOPHER: Thank you, Judge. Donald Frazier. 22 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Frazier, could I get you to 23 step up here and raise your right hand, please. 24 25 5 1 DONALD FRAZIER, after first being duly sworn, 2 was examined and testified as follows: 3 4 JUDGE POTTER: Would you take a walk around 5 there, have a seat in the jury box (sic), state your name loud 6 and clearly for us and then spell it. 7 MR. FRAZIER: My name is Donald Edward Frazier, 8 F-R-A-Z-I-E-R. 9 JUDGE POTTER: F-R-A-C? 10 MR. FRAZIER: Z, sir, as in zebra. 11 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. If you'll answer Mr. 12 Stopher's questions. 13 14 EXAMINATION ___________ 15 16 BY_MR._STOPHER: __ ___ _______ 17 Q. Mr. Frazier, the real microphone is the one 18 that's on the table in front of you, the little brown one. 19 That's the one that picks up your voice in here, sir, and not 20 the one on the mike stand, so if you'll try to keep that in 21 mind. 22 Where do you presently live, Mr. Frazier? 23 A. 5316 Tahia Drive, Louisville, Kentucky 40216. 24 Q. And how old are you? 25 A. Fifty-seven, sir. 6 1 Q. And by whom are you employed, sir? 2 A. Philip Morris. 3 Q. And prior to working for Philip Morris where did 4 you work, sir? 5 A. Standard Gravure Corporation. 6 Q. And when did you start there, Mr. Frazier? 7 A. I believe it was in 1958. 8 Q. And when did you stop working at Standard 9 Gravure? 10 A. I believe it was January of '92, wasn't it? 11 Q. Was it about the time that the plant closed, 12 sir? 13 A. Yes, sir; it was. 14 Q. My understanding is that the plant closed on 15 February 4, 1992. That was the last day of operation. Does 16 that ring a bell with you? 17 A. Yes, sir. January was -- the last of January 18 was just the way my off days fell. 19 Q. I understand. Mr. Frazier, during those years, 20 which is about 38 years, I believe, if my math is right? 21 A. Thirty-three and a half, I believe. 22 Q. Thirty-three and a half. Did you work in the 23 pressroom? 24 A. I did. 25 Q. Would you briefly describe for us what jobs you 7 1 held there, sir. 2 A. I started in the pressroom as a fly-man, which 3 is the entry-level job. In about a year and a half I moved up 4 to the apprentice category, served five years in the 5 apprentice. After that I became a journeyman, served as a 6 journeyman for the rest of my time there. Worked what we call 7 the reel man, the ink man, the second man in charge, first man 8 in charge, folder man, and I served in various capacities with 9 the union throughout my journeyman career. 10 Q. Which union was that, sir? 11 A. Local No. 19, Graphic Communications 12 International Union. 13 Q. And what sorts of positions did you hold with 14 the union, sir? 15 A. I was assistant chairman, chairman, -- which is 16 the same thing as a union steward -- vice-president, chairman 17 of the executive board, and I was president for several terms. 18 Q. Did all of the pressmen at Standard Gravure 19 belong to the union, sir? 20 A. They did. 21 Q. Including Joe Wesbecker? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. Mr. Frazier, let me direct your attention back 24 now, sir, to the early 1970s. You were employed at Standard 25 Gravure and were in the pressroom at that time; correct? 8 1 A. That's correct. 2 Q. Did you come to know Joseph Wesbecker about that 3 time, sir? 4 A. Yes, I did. 5 Q. Would you tell us what you recall about him in 6 those early days in the early 1970s? 7 A. He seemed to be a rather nice guy, a good 8 pressman, hard worker. He worked a lot of overtime. I got 9 along with him well. I considered him a casual friend. 10 Q. Did you ever have any connections with him of a 11 social nature outside the plant, sir, in those days? 12 A. From time to time. Very -- very casual social 13 relations. 14 Q. Mostly it was on the job, sir? 15 A. Yes, sir; it was. 16 Q. And with regard to the jobs there, sir, in the 17 pressroom and particularly the press crews, I think you told 18 us that you worked virtually every position during your 19 thirty-three and a half years there; right? 20 A. That's correct. 21 Q. Let me ask you just a few things about the 22 mechanics of the way the pressroom worked. Were all pressmen 23 trained the same way, sir? 24 A. Basically, yes. 25 Q. And the training included I think you told us 9 1 being a fly-man or a fly-boy? 2 A. Yes. That's correct. 3 Q. And then what would be the next stage after 4 that, sir? 5 A. Your apprenticeship for five years. I believe 6 now it's four years, or later on it became four years, but it 7 was five. 8 Q. And after the apprenticeship was completed, were 9 you then a journeyman? 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. What was a journeyman trained and qualified to 12 do? 13 A. Every position on the press. 14 Q. Including being the man in charge or the folder 15 operator? 16 A. Yes, sir. That was required. 17 Q. Was that required of just some people or was it 18 required of all pressmen? 19 A. Well, it was only required of some people 20 because you only have one pressman in charge per press and you 21 might have ten journeymen on a press. 22 Q. But in terms of training and experience and 23 ability to work it, was there any difference between the 24 pressmen? 25 A. Well, in the sense that some pressmen were 10 1 better than other pressmen, yes. 2 Q. And would those be the pressmen that the foreman 3 would want to put on that position? 4 A. Oh, absolutely. 5 Q. Was there anyone, sir, who because of their 6 training or their experience was exempt from working the 7 folder or being a man in charge or the second man in charge? 8 A. From time to time there was. 9 Q. And would those be instances involving health or 10 disability and that sort of thing? 11 A. Generally speaking, yes. 12 Q. But as a group, sir, if I understand correctly, 13 the setup was all pressmen were trained the same? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. All pressmen had been trained to operate the 16 press in all the different positions that you described for us 17 and that you worked in; am I understanding it correctly? 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. Mr. Frazier, with regard to the first man in 20 charge and the second man in charge, was there a pay 21 difference between those two jobs and the other jobs on the 22 press? 23 A. Yes, there was. 24 Q. What was it in the early years? 25 A. As I recall, the second pressman got $2 a shift, 11 1 which would have been $10 a week; and the first pressman got 2 $3 a shift, $15 a week. 3 Q. More than what they would have made if they had 4 been working the inks or the reels? 5 A. Above the journeyman scale; yes sir. 6 Q. In the later years, in the 1980s, sir, what was 7 the pay difference between being the folder operator or the 8 first man in charge and second man in charge and the other 9 jobs? 10 A. I wasn't working the folder at that time and I 11 have difficulty remembering. I think it went up to about $6 12 and $5; that's just vague remembrance. 13 Q. Five dollars per shift? 14 A. Yes. And six dollars. I believe that's what it 15 was. 16 Q. So that would be about sixty cents an hour more? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. Now, sir, let me direct your attention now to 19 the 1980s. Were you also working with Joseph Wesbecker in the 20 1980s, sir? 21 A. Off and on I was, sir. Joe and I didn't work on 22 the same shift. I worked day work mostly and Joe mostly 23 worked on the night side. But when he worked overtime or I 24 worked overtime, yes, sir, I worked with him. 25 Q. What about after the period when Mike Shea 12 1 became the owner, did you work some with him then? 2 A. Yes, sir. Just as I said before. 3 Q. Same situation? 4 A. Same circumstances. 5 Q. Mr. Frazier, after Mr. Shea purchased the 6 company, were things the same? 7 A. Absolutely not. 8 Q. Do you recall approximately when Mr. Shea became 9 the owner, sir? 10 A. Seemed to me it was about four years before we 11 shut down, approximately. 12 Q. My understanding it was in the summer of 1986. 13 A. That seems reasonable. I'm not real good on 14 dates. 15 Q. All right, sir. You mentioned that it was 16 different after Mr. Shea came in. How was it different, sir? 17 A. Well, under the Binghams who owned the company 18 previously, I would just have to say that they were more 19 interested in people and their employees rather than simply 20 making money. And after Mr. Shea took over, one of the first 21 things the man ever said to me was that he wasn't a benevolent 22 association nor a charitable organization and that he was 23 there to make money and he didn't much care what happened to 24 people; it was money he was interested in. 25 Q. After he said that to you, sir, did you observe 13 1 instances in which that kind of philosophy came to your 2 attention? 3 A. Absolutely. 4 Q. Can you tell us what kind of instances you saw 5 that sort of philosophy come out? 6 A. Well, he was a very hard bargainer when you 7 tried to talk to him about contracts or anything. One of the 8 first things that happened after he took over the company I 9 guess that points out his philosophy was that the Binghams 10 always gave the retirees a review for their pensions, and each 11 year according to the cost-of-living index they would give the 12 pensioners a small raise. This wasn't contractual, it wasn't 13 required of the company or the Binghams; it was just something 14 they did. 15 And after Mr. Shea took over the company, I went 16 into a meeting with him and sat down and I asked him if he was 17 going to continue that policy, and that was at the point that 18 he told me he was not a charitable organization or a 19 philanthropist or a benevolent person and that those people 20 had earned their money, and whatever their pension was was all 21 they were ever going to get out of him and he was never going 22 to give them another raise. So that's the type of attitude I 23 run into with him. 24 Q. You mentioned the pension. Did he take any 25 action with regard to the pension? 14 1 MR. SMITH: Your Honor -- may we approach the 2 bench, Your Honor? 3 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 4 MR. SMITH: Two things. Number One, any 5 comments like were earlier mentioned about what Mr. Shea said 6 in a meeting would be hearsay to the Plaintiffs here. 7 Secondly, we object to any discussion concerning the potential 8 change in pension benefits or the overfunding of the pension 9 plan and what happened to that as being immaterial and 10 irrelevant. There's no showing in this case that Joseph 11 Wesbecker knew of that, that that caused him any problems or 12 that that was in any way anything that contributed to the 13 events that occurred on September 14th, 1989. 14 MR. STOPHER: Mr. Stopher? 15 MR. STOPHER: Judge, it is relevant for the 16 following reasons: Number One, it relates to the hostility 17 that existed in the pressroom in general towards Mr. Shea and 18 it is clear that Mr. Shea was one of the individuals that Mr. 19 Wesbecker had great hostility toward. So anything that 20 relates to that hostility is relevant and should be admitted. 21 That's the purpose of doing this. It's already in evidence 22 many times. 23 MR. SMITH: Well, there's no way we can state 24 that Mr. Wesbecker was hostile toward Mr. Shea for any 25 particular reason. There's no evidence that Mr. Wesbecker was 15 1 mad because of any pension or anything of that nature. This 2 was solely an attempt to take the jury off the issue as to 3 what the stressors were on Mr. Wesbecker. 4 JUDGE POTTER: There are two things. One, at 5 some point the jury's going to be asked to determine whether 6 or not maybe Standard Gravure had some fault in this thing. 7 Second of all, I assume at some point Mr. Stopher is going to 8 ask this gentleman, not only did you hear this or feel this or 9 believe that this happened, did other people in the pressroom 10 have the same information and this guy's probably going to 11 answer yes. So I'm going to overrule the objection. 12 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 13 Q. The question was, Mr. Frazier, did Mr. Shea take 14 any action with regard to the pension plan? 15 A. Yes, sir. Later on, he -- I don't know what the 16 proper terminology is, but he sold or converted the pension 17 plan into a company out in California. There was various 18 amounts stated as to what he was able to siphon off. The 19 Binghams had always overfunded the plans and that's what they 20 used to give raises and so forth, or at least that's what they 21 told me in meetings, and he was able to restructure this 22 pension plan so that he had several million dollars that he 23 could get out to put in his own pocket. And he put it in a 24 company in California that was involved with junk bonds and 25 what have you, and we almost lost our pensions as a result of 16 1 that. 2 Q. Mr. Frazier, what effect, if any, did that have 3 on the morale of the men in the pressroom? 4 A. For a lot of us it made us very unhappy and very 5 bitter. 6 Q. Bitter toward whom, sir? 7 A. Towards Mr. Shea. 8 Q. Mr. Frazier, during the period of time that Mr. 9 Shea owned Standard Gravure, did the morale or the attitude in 10 the pressroom improve, remain the same or get worse? 11 A. Oh, definitely got worse. 12 Q. In what regard, sir? 13 A. Well, his continuing dealings with the people, 14 the pension plan issue, the fact that he just -- he didn't 15 want to cooperate with the employees in any way or the 16 retirees, and we just had problems after problems with him, 17 and the morale just degenerated under the man. He was a very, 18 very hard man, interested in a dollar and not interested in 19 people at all. 20 Q. Mr. Frazier, who was Don McCall? 21 A. He was Mr. Shea's hatchet man. Executive 22 vice-president, I think was his title. 23 Q. What was his philosophy or attitude in 24 management toward particularly the men in the pressroom? 25 A. Mr. McCall takes on the persona of the person 17 1 that employs him, and I worked with him under the Binghams and 2 he basically had the Bingham philosophy, and when Mr. Shea 3 took over, Mr. McCall became Mr. Shea's man and took on his 4 personality. 5 Q. Mr. Frazier, with regard to the operations in 6 the pressroom, the actual functioning of the presses 7 themselves, were there any changes in operations after Mr. 8 Shea purchased the company? 9 A. I believe the time frame escapes me after this 10 length of time but I think we had a manning reduction. I 11 think there were less people on the press to do the same 12 amount of work. 13 Q. Were there any changes in the speed of the 14 presses? 15 A. Yes, sir. They increased the speed almost 16 yearly. That was a goal, more production. 17 Q. What was the effect of increasing the speed on 18 the men in the pressroom? 19 A. Well, it creates a great deal more tension and 20 you have to pay more attention to detail. There's more web 21 breaks, more work. It's a tense -- is a tense situation. The 22 higher speeds, especially with the older presses that we had, 23 created a great deal of stress. 24 Q. How would the -- how would the changes in the 25 speed be communicated to the men that worked on the press? 18 1 How was that mechanically done? 2 A. If I understand you right, I think it comes 3 through the foreman. 4 Q. And how would they increase the speed? How 5 would that be done? 6 A. Well, they would what we call Rube Goldberg the 7 thing, put new bigger electrical motors on it so that it would 8 run faster, new bearings. They would give it a general 9 overhaul. As I said, they were very old presses and they just 10 did whatever they could to try to get a little more speed out 11 of them, and basically it didn't work too well. 12 Q. With regard to -- I assume that you -- somebody 13 would have to communicate that the presses were going to be 14 run faster? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. How would that be done? How would that 17 communication or that word be gotten out? 18 A. Well, it would be given from the foremen to the 19 men, and usually it was posted on the bulletin board. It was 20 given to you in written form and posted on each press. Each 21 press had a small bulletin board area and they would post it 22 there as to what the new running speed was going to be. 23 Q. What if the crew or a man in charge didn't meet 24 that running speed, what would happen? 25 A. Well, he would have a rather unpleasant time 19 1 with the people in the office. 2 Q. Who would, the man in charge or the second man 3 in charge or the whole crew? 4 A. Man in charge, basically. 5 Q. Mr. Frazier, let me turn back to Joseph 6 Wesbecker. Did you ever observe his relationship with the 7 foremen or the supervisors at Standard Gravure, and 8 particularly after Mr. Shea owned the company? 9 A. On occasion. 10 Q. Had it changed or was it the same as it had 11 been? 12 A. No, it had changed. 13 Q. Would you tell us how his attitude toward the 14 foremen or his relationship had changed? 15 A. Basically, as I said before, Joe used to be a 16 fairly easygoing guy and just what I call a regular person. 17 He became more antagonistic and I guess you would say 18 confrontational. That's about all I can say about it. 19 Q. What sorts of things did you observe that 20 indicated to you that he was antagonistic or confrontational? 21 A. Well, I was around when he had talked to foremen 22 that were not quite satisfied with the way the press was 23 running, and he would get very agitated and upset and speak in 24 a loud voice and use some language that I thought was rather 25 rough for using with a foreman. 20 1 Q. Did you observe this on more than one occasion 2 or just once or twice? 3 A. Oh, sure. Several times. A number of times. 4 Q. Was it any one particular foreman? 5 A. Well, basically he worked on the five-to-one 6 shift and it would be Bill McKeown and he had some 7 confrontations with Don Cox, as I recall. 8 Q. Did you ever hear him talk, sir, about the 9 pressure of working the folder? 10 A. Yes, sir. In the later -- towards the end of 11 the -- of his time there, yes. 12 Q. What sorts of things would he say in your 13 hearing about that kind of pressure? 14 A. Well, he said it was getting on his nerves. He 15 said it was making him really agitated. It was just upsetting 16 him a lot. He told me he was under treatment for nervous 17 disorders and that sort of thing. He was taking medication 18 and he went on and on about it on a number of occasions. 19 Q. Did he ever ask or seek any kind of relief? 20 A. Relief? 21 Q. Yes, sir. 22 A. From me? 23 Q. Well, sir, let's begin with you. First of all, 24 did he ask you to assist him in getting some kind of help? 25 A. Yes, sir; he did. 21 1 Q. What kind of help did he want, sir? 2 A. He wanted the union -- I was president of the 3 union at the time and he wanted the union's help in getting an 4 exemption from the folder. 5 Q. And did you agree to do that, sir? 6 A. I agreed, sir, to do what I could do for him. 7 Assigning positions on the press was contractually the 8 company's right and we had no contractual grounds to file a 9 formal grievance with the company insofar as assigning job 10 assignments on the press and Joe knew that, and I explained it 11 to him, as well as other officers in the union. But we agreed 12 to talk to the foremen, the superintendent, the -- well, Don 13 Cox -- I mean, Don McCall, Mike Shea, as best we could, if 14 they would listen to us, and try to help him just as a brother 15 member. But he understood that we couldn't just go in there 16 and demand that they take him off the folder. 17 Q. Did you yourself go to all those different 18 people and speak on his behalf? 19 A. I did. At various times; yes, sir. 20 Q. Mr. McCall, Mr. Cox, the foremen? 21 A. Yes. Mr. Shea. 22 Q. Mr. Shea, even? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. What was their position with regard to Mr. 25 Wesbecker's request to get off of or get an exemption from 22 1 working the folder? 2 A. Their response was very negative. We discussed 3 it -- I not only discussed it with them personally; we asked 4 that it -- in standing committee meetings if we could bring 5 the topic up, and they allowed it to be brought up and 6 discussed it collectively with other officers of the union 7 present, as well as myself and Mr. Shea, Mr. McCall and 8 whoever else happened to have been in there at the time with 9 him on the company side, and basically they just refused. 10 They said their reasons, which I never have to this day and 11 still don't understand why they didn't do it, they said that 12 they thought it would be setting a bad precedent, and that if 13 they were to do that for Joe that then other people would be 14 inclined to use his case as a precedent to get off the folder 15 whenever they wanted to. 16 But the union took the position, as we had in 17 the past with other people, that we were willing to sign a 18 letter that said that this would be a one-time-only thing; 19 that it would not be used in the future, would not set a 20 precedent, could not be used in arbitration or negotiations, 21 et cetera, et cetera. 22 Q. Did Mr. Wesbecker, to your knowledge or based on 23 what he may have told you, go to meet with these people, 24 either with you or alone? 25 A. Yes, he did. 23 1 Q. What did he tell you about that, sir? 2 A. Well, he told me that he was basically running 3 up against the same stone wall that I was running up against; 4 that they just weren't going to give him what he wanted. He 5 said that they told him that they would exempt him when they 6 could, but if they needed him they were going to put him on 7 the folder anyhow. 8 Q. Mr. Frazier, what was Mr. Wesbecker's basis or 9 reason for wanting an exemption from the folder? 10 A. He blamed it on his nerves and mental distress, 11 and he said it was just something to the effect that it was 12 just tearing him up to have to come in there and work it 13 anymore, the stress was just really getting to him. 14 Q. Did Mr. Shea recognize mental illness as a 15 handicap? 16 A. Oh, I don't think so, no. 17 Q. Did Mr. Shea or the others in management believe 18 that Joe Wesbecker was mentally ill? 19 A. I believe they thought he had a problem, yes. 20 Q. And did they ever agree that that problem 21 qualified him for an exemption? 22 A. No, sir. 23 Q. After going to these various steps, sir, did Mr. 24 Wesbecker take any other steps to try to get the exemption? 25 A. The best of my recollection, sir, he went to 24 1 various agencies, that is, outside the union and the company. 2 I know on different times I talked to him he talked about 3 filing discrimination charges, he talked about going to Unfair 4 Labor Practices, that sort of thing. 5 Q. Did he ever tell you how those things worked 6 out? 7 A. Last time I recall talking to him he said they 8 weren't doing him any good, either. 9 Q. Now, sir, let me go back for just a moment. Did 10 you notice any other changes in Mr. Wesbecker in the last few 11 years that he worked there as compared to the 1970s, other 12 than the things that we've just now discussed? Did you notice 13 anything else about him that was different, sir? 14 A. Well, yes, a number of things. He just changed 15 completely from the type of person that I knew before, a man 16 that I called a casual friend. He became very withdrawn and 17 at times he wouldn't talk to you and at other times he would. 18 I mean, he just became -- I guess the word is moody. He 19 developed a number of rather exotic -- what I thought were 20 exotic -- interests, in guns and gun magazines, national 21 rifleman magazines and hunting magazines and weapons 22 catalogues, and he made a lot of crazy statements, or I 23 thought at the time they were crazy. I guess that's a poor 24 choice of words, but that's what I thought. 25 Q. What sorts of statements did he make? 25 1 A. Well, in general, he seemed to threaten people, 2 which he had never done before and made statements to that 3 effect, and it's so long ago I can't remember exactly. The 4 one thing that comes to my mind was that one time he told me 5 about he was going to get some kind of radio-controlled 6 airplane and put explosives in the thing and fly it against 7 the building in order to get even with Mr. Shea and 8 management, Don McCall and so forth. 9 Q. You said he seemed to threaten people, which he 10 had not done before. What kinds of threats would they be, 11 sir? 12 A. Again, it's been so long, they were fairly 13 violent threats, you know. He would have a confrontation and 14 he'd say something like, "Well, you know, maybe that person 15 should be blowed away or maybe he needs to be wiped out," or 16 something to that effect. 17 Q. Was it just one or two people that he would act 18 that way with? 19 A. In the beginning, but his list seemed to grow 20 longer as time went by. 21 Q. You mentioned that at times he would stop 22 speaking to people? 23 A. Well, me in particular, yes. 24 Q. You in particular? Why did he stop speaking to 25 you, sir? 26 1 A. I have no idea. 2 Q. You hadn't done anything except try to help him, 3 from what I understand? 4 MR. SMITH: Objection, leading, Your Honor. 5 JUDGE POTTER: Sustained. 6 Q. Had you done anything to him, sir? 7 A. No, sir. I never done nothing to the man, that 8 I know of, to make him stop talking to me. 9 Q. Do you recall when it was that he stopped 10 talking to you? 11 A. This began about two years prior to the incident 12 we're all here for, and it became increasingly worse. And in 13 the last year, and particularly the last six months, he 14 became -- from a layman's view all's I can say is he became 15 very strange. 16 Q. In the last six months, sir, what in particular 17 about him was so strange, from your recollection? 18 A. He seemed to lose his grip on reality, to me. 19 Joe knew better. He would come and confront me, come into 20 work. He might be off and he would come in there to see me 21 and he would demand that I do certain things and that the 22 union do certain things and, as I told you before, earlier on 23 we had discussed the fact that we didn't have grounds for a 24 grievance, a contractual grievance about his assignments on 25 the press. And he understood that in the beginning, but in 27 1 the last six months he would come in and rant and rave at me. 2 And he never made any major threats but he made minor threats, 3 you know, such as, "I'll see you. You're not going to get 4 elected again. I'll talk to people and we'll have you thrown 5 out of office," and he just seemed to lose his grip on reality 6 about getting off the folder. 7 Q. Mr. Frazier, in that last year or two, was he 8 ever actually really on the folder? 9 A. Not very much, no. 10 Q. Mr. Frazier, at some point in time, if I 11 understand correctly, he got LTD or long-term disability from 12 Standard Gravure. Is that consistent with your recollection, 13 sir? 14 A. It is. 15 Q. Were you involved, sir, in any way in connection 16 with that disability in connection with him? 17 A. No, not -- no, I wasn't particularly involved. 18 That's the function of the company, between him and the 19 company. 20 Q. That would not be an issue that the union would 21 be involved in? 22 A. No, not unless there was some sort of a problem 23 that he had where they refused to give it to him and he came 24 to us, we might go represent him and try to find out why they 25 weren't honoring the terms of the LTD agreement but, I mean , 28 1 no, not basically; that's not a function of the union. 2 Q. If I understand correctly, then, that would be 3 the individual and the company that would be involved in 4 disability or LTD? 5 A. That's correct. 6 Q. All right, sir. Mr. Frazier, it's my 7 understanding that Joe Wesbecker went on LTD and stopped 8 working actively at Standard Gravure on August 6, 1988, about 9 a year and one month before these shootings occurred. After 10 he went off on disability, sir, did you ever have any contact 11 with him? 12 A. Quite a few times, yes. 13 Q. Would you try to relate those times to us and 14 try to put them in chronological order? And I know it's been 15 a long time, but if you would, try to give us your best 16 recollection on those occasions. 17 A. Well, basically, it's like I said a while ago to 18 you, he would come in work periodically. Oh, it's so long 19 ago. Two or three weeks would go by and he would show up and 20 he would come in. And at various times it would be -- he 21 would come by and he would just gripe at me. He would say, 22 "The company's not paying me right," or "I'm having trouble 23 with getting my checks" or "I'm having trouble with that" or 24 "I'm filing charges with this agency." And this would happen 25 periodically, as I said, like two weeks, maybe three weeks 29 1 would go by and he'd be in again, and then a month and he 2 would be in again. And then towards the end he would be 3 coming in, as I told you before, hollering at me, saying you 4 know, "I don't know why you didn't get me off the folder." 5 And, you know, "I wouldn't have to be without my job. I 6 didn't want to quit my job. I didn't want to be retired," and 7 progressively he just got wilder every time he came in. And I 8 don't know, I guess it was probably the last time I saw him 9 was two, three weeks, a month maybe before. 10 Q. Were these occasions when you'd see him 11 periodically through that year, would it be at Standard 12 Gravure? 13 A. Oh, yes, sir. 14 Q. And during that year that he was off on 15 disability, did he tell you that he was happy and pleased with 16 his arrangement with Standard Gravure? 17 MR. SMITH: Objection. Leading. 18 JUDGE POTTER: Sustained. 19 Q. What did he tell you about his relationship with 20 Standard Gravure when he was off on disability? 21 A. He hated it. He was very bitter at the company. 22 As I said, at the end he was bitter at me. He was a little 23 bitter at the union. He blamed all sorts of people down 24 there, guys that he had worked with for not supporting him and 25 not helping him. I'm no doctor, but I guess the word is 30 1 paranoid. He just seemed like he was real paranoid to me 2 about the whole thing. But he really hated being off from 3 work; he expressed that to me on more than one occasion. He 4 just did not want to be retired. He didn't think it was fair. 5 He didn't think it was right. He thought it was totally 6 wrong, and in a way I agreed with the man. 7 Q. Mr. Frazier, let me show you a document, first 8 of all, sir, marked as Defendant's Exhibit 338, and let me ask 9 you, sir, if you can identify this document. 10 A. Yes, sir; I can. 11 Q. Can you tell us what it is? 12 A. It's a letter from me to Mr. Wesbecker 13 concerning his problems with working on the folder. 14 Q. This is a letter from you to him? 15 A. Yes, sir; it is. 16 Q. Dated January 15, 1988; correct, sir? 17 A. That's correct. 18 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, we move the admission 19 of Defendant's Exhibit 338 and ask that it be published to the 20 jury. 21 JUDGE POTTER: Be admitted. Give copies to my 22 sheriff. 23 SHERIFF CECIL: (Hands document to jurors). 24 Q. Mr. Frazier, do you have any specific 25 recollection as to what Joe Wesbecker's reaction was to the 31 1 statements made in this letter? 2 A. At this particular point in time, Joe fairly -- 3 I guess you would say he accepted what we were saying at this 4 point in time, at least. That's in January of '88. 5 Q. Did that change later? 6 A. Oh, yes, sir. 7 Q. And how did it change? 8 A. As I said before, from that time until the time 9 that this incident happened, why, he went from acceptance to 10 total rejection of our position and threatening to me over 11 things, you know. 12 Q. Let me show you another document, sir, that has 13 been marked as Defendant's Exhibit 336. And let me ask you if 14 you can identify this document for us, please, sir. 15 A. I can. 16 Q. And what is it, sir? 17 A. Excuse me? I didn't hear you, sir. 18 Q. I'm sorry. What is it, sir? 19 A. It's a letter from me to Ms. Elizabeth Shipley 20 and Mr. Dan Mattingly of the Human Relations Commission. 21 Q. It's a letter that you wrote, sir? 22 A. Yes, it is. 23 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, we would move the 24 admission of Defendant's Exhibit 336 and ask that it be 25 published to the jury. 32 1 JUDGE POTTER: Be admitted. 2 SHERIFF CECIL: (Hands document to jurors). 3 Q. Mr. Frazier, do you have any recollection as to 4 how this letter came to be written? 5 A. Yes, sir. Joe filed a complaint with the Human 6 Relations Commission. As president of the union they called 7 me and discussed this with me. It's one of those things that 8 had escaped my mind for a while, but I know what it is and how 9 it happened. And they asked me for a response, verbally over 10 the phone they asked me if we had a problem as a union to him 11 being exempted from the folder, and I said no, we don't have a 12 problem with that. We've had cases in the past where that has 13 happened and we were able to reach an accommodation with the 14 company and, basically, you know, that we can't force the 15 company to do that but we're certainly willing, if the company 16 is willing, to go along with Joe and to meet his problems. 17 And they asked me to respond in writing and I did so. 18 Q. Lastly, sir, let me show you a document that's 19 been marked as Defendant's Exhibit 337. And I will start off, 20 sir, by apologizing to you for the quality of this copy, but 21 it's the best that I could do. I apologize to everybody for 22 the quality of this copy. Do you recognize this document, 23 sir? 24 A. I do. 25 Q. Can you tell us what it is? 33 1 A. It's a withdrawal card from the Graphic 2 Communications International Union, our parent union, for Joe 3 Wesbecker. It's dated February of '89. 4 Q. And is it signed by you, as well, sir? 5 A. Yes, sir; it is. 6 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, we would move the 7 admission of Defendant's Exhibit 337 and ask that it be 8 published. 9 JUDGE POTTER: Be admitted. 10 SHERIFF CECIL: (Hands document to jurors). 11 Q. Mr. Frazier, this document is entitled up at the 12 top, Graphic Communications International Union, and then it 13 looks like there are two boxes there that can be checked; 14 correct? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. And the one marked Honorable Withdrawal is 17 checked? 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. And over to the left it shows the member's name? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. And the local number or GCU Louisville Local and 22 then I don't know if it gives the number or not. I can't read 23 it on my copy. 24 A. It's on the line to your right; it's 19N. 25 Q. Oh, I see it. Yes, sir. And then up above the 34 1 19N is the member's number, which I assume is Social Security 2 number? 3 A. Social Security, yes. 4 Q. And then there's a date there? 5 A. Correct. 6 Q. And can you read that date, sir? 7 A. Looks like February the 23rd, 1989, to me. 8 Q. And then it is -- says, "Last month PC tax paid, 9 one year." What does that mean, sir? 10 A. That's the last time he paid his per capita tax. 11 The per capita tax is the money that's sent into the 12 international union as their part of the dues. There's a 13 certain amount that stays with the local, a certain amount 14 goes to the international. 15 Q. And then under that it says president, and is 16 that your signature there, sir? 17 A. It is. 18 Q. And then it says secretary-treasurer, and can 19 you recognize that signature or read it? 20 A. That's Frank L. Wheatley. 21 Q. And then under that is the signature of 22 Joseph T. Wesbecker? 23 A. Correct. 24 Q. Mr. Frazier, what do you remember about this 25 document and how this came into being in February of 1989? 35 1 A. Basically this document is a formality. I know 2 that Joe was very unhappy about having to do this, but once 3 you take LTD or you retire, this is the process you go through 4 to take a withdrawal card. It's the same as retiring from the 5 union. If you don't do this, your dues, both local and 6 international, continue to go on and you have to pay your dues 7 each month. When you take a withdrawal card like this, then 8 you're still a member in good standing of the international 9 and of the local and you don't have to pay dues. I have a 10 withdrawal card now. I'm no longer in the trade, and, as I 11 say, it represents a retirement from the union, basically. 12 Q. Did you discuss whether or not he should do this 13 with him, sir? 14 A. Yes, I did. 15 Q. What do you recall about those discussions? 16 A. Joe, as I said, was very unhappy and bitter 17 about it and he didn't want to do it, he didn't want to lose 18 his job to start with, but I advised him that this was the 19 only way to go because there was no sense in paying dues every 20 month to the local and international if he wasn't going to be 21 in the trade and getting any money for it, and he finally 22 accepted that. 23 Q. Mr. Frazier, after February of 1989, was he a 24 member of the union? 25 A. Why, sure, he's always a member. He's 36 1 withdrawn, but, I mean, he's still a member of the union, yes. 2 Q. He could come back if he went back to work? 3 A. Absolutely, yeah. Sure. He has to pay a 4 reinstatement fee, but that's all that amounts to. 5 Q. Mr. Frazier, did Mr. Wesbecker in that last year 6 before the shootings occurred in any of these times that you 7 ran into him at the plant or he talked to you, did he ever 8 talk to you about what he was going to do, where he was going 9 to go from there? 10 A. Oh, he was -- at times, but he was very 11 disjointed and very confused about that, very upset. He 12 didn't seem to know what his life held for him after that. I 13 tried to say something to the effect, I said, "Well, life goes 14 on, Joe, there's got to be something after being a pressman," 15 you know, but he just couldn't seem to accept that. He said, 16 "Well, I don't know what that is," something to that effect. 17 Q. That's all I have, Your Honor. 18 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith. 19 20 EXAMINATION ___________ 21 22 BY_MR._SMITH: __ ___ ______ 23 Q. Mr. Frazier, do you have the exhibits in front 24 of you? 25 A. Yes, sir. 37 1 Q. What is the exhibit number for the January 15th, 2 1988 letter? 3 A. Say it again, sir? 4 Q. What is the exhibit number for the January 15th, 5 1988 letter that you wrote Mr. Wesbecker? It ought to have a 6 stamp on it. 7 A. Defendant's Exhibit 338. Is that what you're 8 referring to? 9 Q. Right. I was looking in your deposition, so I 10 didn't write it down. It's Defendant's Exhibit 338? The 11 first two paragraphs read, "In regard to your recent request 12 to reinstate your grievance concerning working on the folder, 13 we have investigated this case and found that it is not a 14 legitimate grievance. The issues involved in this grievance 15 have been settled and cannot be brought up again without just 16 cause. You were aware of Superintendent D. Cox agreeing 17 verbally to not placing you on the folder, and it is a matter 18 of fact that you have not been required to work on the folder 19 since our last resolution of this matter." Correct? 20 A. That's what it says. 21 Q. And it's signed by you? 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. Was that accurate at the time, sir? 24 A. It is. And it was. 25 Q. So, in fact, what had occurred, Mr. Frazier, was 38 1 that management had been contacted on this and management had 2 agreed not to put Mr. Wesbecker on the folder unless it was 3 necessary to do so; correct, sir? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. And management had advised that they would give 6 Mr. Wesbecker what accommodations they could, hadn't they? 7 A. Yes, they had. 8 Q. And you found by virtue of this that this was 9 not a legitimate grievance? 10 A. I said that awhile ago. Yes. 11 Q. And, in fact, do you know of any instance that 12 Mr. Wesbecker was placed back on the folder after January 13 15th, 1988? 14 A. January of '88? Yes, I believe I do, sir. Yes. 15 Q. You do? 16 A. I believe I do. 17 Q. All right. Tell us when and where that was in 18 Mr. Wesbecker. 19 A. No, I can't possibly do that. 20 Q. Then why do you say that you believe that Mr. 21 Wesbecker -- the reason I ask you, Mr. Frazier, is because all 22 the evidence up to this date has been that he wasn't ever on 23 the folder after September 1986. Now, do you have some 24 different evidence? 25 A. September of '86? 39 1 Q. Yes. 2 A. September of '86? 3 Q. Yes, sir. Do you have any different evidence 4 that he was put on the folder after January of '88? 5 A. I don't have any evidence, sir; I only have my 6 recollection. 7 Q. Then why do you say you believe he was put back 8 on the folder? 9 A. You asked me, sir, if I believed he was on 10 there. I said yes. I talked to the man; he had been on 11 there. And I had seen him working on the folder. 12 Q. You saw him working on the folder after January 13 15th, 1988? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. And did you take any action in connection with 16 that? 17 A. Why, no, not at all. 18 Q. Did he ask you to take any action in connection 19 with that when you saw him standing there working the folder? 20 A. Not at that time. As I said earlier, he worked 21 very seldom on the folder after we got some sort of agreement 22 with the company. He worked on the secondary winder quite a 23 bit, which is not exactly the same thing. It has got 24 pressures like a folder but it's not as bad as a folder. But 25 I saw him working on a folder, if that's what you're asking 40 1 me. 2 Q. And you're sure it's after January 15th of 1988? 3 A. To the best of my recollection; yes, sir. 4 Q. Did you make or reopen the grievance after 5 January 15th, 1988? 6 A. That's probably a poor choice of words in my 7 part in calling that a grievance to start with. It was more 8 of a disagreement. As I explained earlier, sir, there never 9 was contractual grounds for an actual contract grievance. 10 Q. Mr. Frazier, my question to you is, did you ever 11 reopen the grievance after seeing Mr. Wesbecker working on the 12 folder after January 15th, 1988? 13 A. I talked to the company about it, yes. 14 Q. Who? 15 A. I talked I believe it was Mr. Cox, Mr. McKeown. 16 At one standing committee I remember talking with Mr. Shea and 17 Mr. McCall, and I believe Mr. Cox was in attendance at that 18 meeting. 19 Q. Mr. Cox was here yesterday and he swore under 20 oath that this never occurred, that Mr. Wesbecker was never on 21 the folder after January 15th, 1988, as far as he knew. And 22 he didn't mention any conversations with you concerning Mr. 23 Wesbecker being on the folder after January 15th, 1988. Are 24 you sure you talked to Mr. Cox about that, Mr. Frazier? 25 A. I'm sure. 41 1 Q. You're positive? 2 A. I am positive. 3 Q. And you're positive it was after January 15th, 4 1988? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. All right. Mr. Frazier, I didn't introduce 7 myself. We've never met. I'm Paul Smith and I represent 8 these people here who were pressmen, members of your union. 9 All right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Do I understand it that in fact you were working 12 for the union during the 1980s as the union president? Were 13 you an actual union employee? 14 A. No. 15 Q. You were a pressman? 16 A. That's correct. 17 Q. Continuing to work as a pressman? 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. But you were elected as union president and were 20 active representing the pressmen against management? 21 A. Yes. That's correct. 22 Q. And it was your job to take the position of the 23 pressmen and try to get their wishes brought forward to 24 management; is that right? 25 A. That's correct. 42 1 Q. And that always presented some type of 2 confrontation with management when you have labor and 3 management, doesn't it? 4 A. Yes, sir; it does. 5 Q. You seem to have a pretty negative view toward 6 management at Standard Gravure. 7 A. Not management at Standard Gravure, per se, only 8 the Shea management. 9 Q. Wasn't he the one that was the manager after 10 1986? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. In fact, had you negotiated with the Binghams 13 prior to this? 14 A. Numerous occasions. 15 Q. And the Binghams, during those negotiations had 16 negotiated for a moratorium of pay? 17 A. A moratorium of what, sir? 18 Q. Of pay raises? 19 A. A pay freeze, yes. 20 Q. And that was because of financial problems that 21 they had expressed? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And you for the union had agreed to this 24 moratorium in pay raises? 25 A. Yes. 43 1 Q. And that had caused some problems among the 2 union members; is that right, Mr. Frazier? 3 A. Problems, I don't know that it caused any 4 problems; it caused concern certainly, yes. 5 Q. It caused morale to be bad? 6 A. Well, I guess it affected morale negatively, of 7 course. 8 Q. When Mr. Shea took over the plant in 1986, the 9 pressmen had not had a raise in four years, had they? 10 A. Correct. 11 Q. And they were not happy with that, were they? 12 A. No. 13 Q. And did they express that unhappiness to you, 14 sir? 15 A. Certainly. 16 Q. And did you request that Mr. Shea and Mr. McCall 17 review that moratorium? 18 A. Oh, absolutely. 19 Q. And they elected not to reinstate the 20 contractual moratorium where that moratorium would no longer 21 exist; is that right? 22 A. I don't think I understood what you said. They 23 elected not to do what -- 24 Q. Shea, when he took over said, "I'm going to 25 continue to abide by the moratorium"? 44 1 A. Yes, he did. 2 Q. And he didn't agree to give any raises? 3 A. Oh, no. No. 4 Q. Did you have criticism of Shea because he was 5 trying to operate Standard Gravure at a profit? 6 A. Did I have a problem with that? 7 Q. Right. 8 A. Oh, absolutely not. No. 9 Q. When he said, "I'm here and I'm not running an 10 organization designed to be charitable," you didn't have a 11 problem with that, really, did you? 12 A. I had a problem with his attitude, not with the 13 fact that he was there to make a profit. 14 Q. Did you say that Joe was hostile toward the 15 union during these latter days? 16 A. Yes, I did. 17 Q. Do you have your deposition there, sir? 18 A. Yes, I do. 19 Q. Is that in that envelope? 20 A. It is. 21 Q. What's on the outside of that envelope? 22 A. It's an envelope -- a torn envelope and address. 23 Q. Who's the envelope from, sir? 24 A. Boehl, Stopher & Graves. 25 Q. Okay. Would you open up that envelope and take 45 1 out the deposition. Would you turn to Page 121, Mr. Frazier. 2 It says there on Line 2 of Page 121, the question was put to 3 you, "Question: You did not detect any hostility or 4 resentment with regard to the union on his part." Correct, 5 sir? 6 A. That's what it says. 7 Q. And your answer was: "No, I didn't really," 8 isn't it? 9 A. That's what it says. 10 Q. Now, is that not correct, sir, that testimony 11 you gave under oath in your deposition? 12 A. I have to see what context we're talking about 13 here at that particular point in time. (Reviews document) 14 We're talking about a letter that was given to him at that 15 particular time and, no, I didn't detect any hostility at that 16 time, no. That is correct as is written. 17 Q. The next sentence goes on and talks about -- 18 next question and answer talks about him withdrawing from the 19 union; correct? 20 A. That's it, yes. 21 Q. And you say it was ancillary -- his resignation. 22 MR. STOPHER: Wait a minute. 23 MR. SMITH: What do you mean wait a minute, 24 Counsel? 25 MR. STOPHER: Let's read the question and 46 1 answer. 2 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith, just read questions 3 and answers; you can pick them but read them. 4 Q. The next question and answer on Page 121, 5 beginning Line 5 says, "His resignation or withdrawal from the 6 union was in protest over the way he had been treated by the 7 company as opposed to the way he was treated -- had been 8 treated by the union." Your answer was: "Absolutely. It was 9 ancillary actually to his resignation. Formal resignation 10 went through the company when he quit his job and this is a 11 secondary matter. It's simply a formality. After quitting 12 his job, if he didn't withdraw from the union he would still 13 be responsible for paying monthly dues and assessments, and so 14 this is just a way, a formality to stop paying dues and 15 assessments until such a time as he went back to work in the 16 trade." Correct, sir? 17 A. Yes. That's what I said awhile ago. Yes. 18 That's correct. 19 Q. So he wasn't hostile toward the union, was he? 20 A. At that particular time? 21 Q. Yes. When he resigned from the union in 22 February of '89, he didn't have any hostility toward the 23 union, did he? 24 A. No, not at that particular time we're talking 25 about. No, he didn't express hostility, I don't think. 47 1 Q. Did he have hostility at any time after that 2 toward the union? 3 A. I just said awhile ago; yes, he did. 4 Q. Tell us about that. 5 A. Well, as I said before, it progressively -- at 6 first Joe seemed to understand the position that we didn't 7 have a contractual right to grieve his being assigned to the 8 folder. 9 Q. Wait a minute. By February 1989, Mr. Wesbecker 10 is already on long-term disability. He's not working at the 11 plant and the folder is not causing a problem anymore; 12 correct, sir? 13 A. Yeah. That's true. Okay. 14 Q. All right. Now, did he express hostility to the 15 union after February 1989? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Tell me about that, sir. 18 A. As I said before, he came into the plant on 19 various occasions, some two weeks, three weeks apart and 20 basically it became a little more disagreeable each time he 21 came in to talk to me. I don't know that he was there to talk 22 to me specifically or that he was there because of a union 23 problem. Basically he was there telling me he was there to 24 deal with the company for some reason or another. 25 Q. Is it your testimony, Mr. Frazier, that Joe 48 1 Wesbecker was in the Standard Gravure plant every two or three 2 weeks and would stop by and talk to you about his problems 3 with the company? 4 A. As I said, the period -- it's a long time ago 5 and it was two or three weeks, sometimes it might be a month 6 before I saw him but, yes, he was in the plant and he talked 7 to me. 8 Q. I understand this was a long time ago and it's 9 very important that we know what went on during this period of 10 time, Mr. Frazier, so I'm going to have to ask you some very 11 specific questions so we can get your best evidence concerning 12 this. All right? 13 Now, the facts are that Joe Wesbecker went on 14 long-term disability -- last worked at Standard Gravure on 15 August the 10th, 1988; all right, sir? Does that comport with 16 your recollection? 17 A. If you say that's what the date was, I'll go 18 along with it. I can't remember dates that well. 19 Q. That's what the evidence has been. 20 A. Okay. That's fine. 21 Q. Now, we know the fire occurred on November 1988, 22 don't we? 23 A. That seems reasonable, yes, about that time. 24 Q. That was in Area, what, Two that there was a 25 fire? 49 1 A. Two. Yes. 2 Q. And that area had to be shut down? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Now, I want you to tell us every time that you 5 can remember that Joe Wesbecker was in that plant after -- 6 between August 10th, 1988, and November 1988, when the fire 7 occurred. 8 A. I can't do that. 9 Q. Was it one time? 10 A. Between August of '88 and November of '88? 11 Q. Yes, sir. 12 A. I really can't do that. 13 Q. Do you know if he came in at all during that 14 period of time? 15 A. I will sit here and swear to that. Yes, he was 16 in the plant. 17 Q. How many times, sir? Was it -- you say you will 18 sit here and swear to it, so how many times? 19 A. I remember seeing him but, you know, I can't 20 tell you whether it was twice or three times or once or five 21 times. It just doesn't come back to me, sir. I'm sorry. 22 Q. Well, did you talk to him on any of those 23 occasions? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. How many times did you talk to him on those 50 1 occasions? 2 A. Seems to me I talked to him a couple, three 3 times, but, you know, I just hate to sit here under oath and 4 my memory is so faulty. 5 Q. Your memory is so faulty? 6 A. Well, certainly, yes. 7 Q. Well, it's important that we separate what you 8 do actually remember and what you don't remember, sir. Okay? 9 A. Yes. I understand that. 10 Q. Your memory is accurate when you say you think 11 you saw him in the plant between August of '88 and November of 12 '88; correct? 13 A. That's correct. 14 Q. But your memory is faulty as to whether or not 15 you ever talked with him? 16 A. No. It's faulty as to the number of times I saw 17 him in there. 18 Q. Again, we're in the August-to-November period of 19 time. Are you with me? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. You think you talked to him; is that right? 22 A. I talked to Joe -- let me rephrase that. Joe 23 talked to me. Every time I saw Joe after he began having 24 these problems he came to me and talked to me. 25 Q. All right. So, did he talk to you about the 51 1 problems with the plant? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. About the problems with his disability while he 4 was off from August of '88 to November of '88? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Okay. What did he say? How many times did you 7 talk about those problems? 8 A. As I said, two or three times, perhaps. 9 Q. Two or three times. All right. On the first 10 occasion that you talked to him about his problems at work, 11 what did he say? 12 A. You can't pin me down that tight because each 13 time that Joe came to me the best that I can tell you is he 14 was dissatisfied with what was happening to him. He was 15 bitter, he was unhappy and he expressed those opinions to me, 16 and he expressed that he was being treated unfairly, and 17 that's the best of my recollection. 18 Q. Hadn't Joe Wesbecker applied for long-term 19 disability? 20 A. Had he applied? 21 Q. Yeah. Isn't that long-term disability something 22 he wanted? 23 A. No. He didn't want that. 24 Q. He didn't? 25 A. That's what he told me. 52 1 Q. Then why did he apply for it? 2 A. Well, he had to. 3 Q. Why? 4 A. He was unable to continue his employment there, 5 according to him. 6 Q. The doctor said he was unable to continue to 7 work; right? 8 A. That was my understanding, yes. 9 Q. And he gave that doctor -- that doctor's report 10 to his employer and asked them to put him on long-term 11 disability; correct? 12 A. Sure. 13 Q. And that was done, wasn't it? 14 A. Yes. As far as I know it was. 15 Q. So, now, back to those conversations, what was 16 he upset about in those two or three conversations you had 17 with him between August of '88 and November of '88? 18 A. As I told you repeatedly, Joe was bitter because 19 he lost his job, period. That's where the whole thing starts 20 and where it ends, and everything that happened in between 21 there he was bitter about. He did not want to be off on 22 disability. He did not want to lose his job. He wanted to 23 continue to work as a pressman at Standard Gravure and not 24 have to work the folder. That's as simple as it is. And from 25 there on, everything made him mad, made him bitter, made him 53 1 unhappy. 2 Q. All right. So your judgment is is that the 3 problem here was that he wouldn't be taken off the folder, the 4 company wouldn't let him off the folder? 5 A. Why, absolutely, that's where the whole thing 6 started. 7 Q. And that's what caused this to occur on 8 September 14th, 1989, is that Joe Wesbecker didn't get off the 9 folder? 10 A. Yeah. I believe that's what started it, and I 11 think that's probably at the end what really happened. 12 Q. Well, was it his problem with the folder or was 13 it his problem being off work? 14 A. Well, as I said, it all falls into place. He 15 couldn't get off the folder so his tensions, according to him, 16 what he said to me, he couldn't handle the job, so his doctor 17 give him a slip that says you can't handle it, retire, take 18 long-term disability and that's -- 19 Q. He had asked that -- 20 MR. STOPHER: Could he finish his answer? 21 JUDGE POTTER: Let him finish, Mr. Smith. 22 Q. He had asked for that from his doctor, hadn't 23 he? 24 A. Oh, I don't know that, no. 25 Q. You didn't talk about that? 54 1 A. Yes. My conversations with Joe always -- or his 2 conversations with me, I probably should say -- always were 3 that he didn't want to retire, did not want to lose his job. 4 All he wanted to do was to get off the folder and to continue 5 to work as a pressman, and whether or not he asked his doctor 6 for an LTD statement or not, I don't know about that. He 7 didn't say that to me. He just said, "They're making me 8 retire. They're doing this to me." 9 Q. Who is making him retire? 10 A. They, the company, the management, the doctors. 11 Q. Did you know that Joe was sick? 12 A. Did I know he was sick? 13 Q. Yeah. Did you believe he was sick? 14 A. Yeah. I believe he was disturbed, certainly. 15 Q. Did you believe he had a mental illness? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. What was your belief as to the nature of his 18 mental illness, sir? 19 A. He told me he was a manic depressive, but I just 20 thought he was a highly disturbed individual. I'm not 21 qualified to diagnose mental illness. 22 Q. Well, was it your impression that it was his 23 mental illness that was causing him not to be able to work on 24 the folder? 25 A. If you're talking about nerves -- 55 1 Q. Yes, sir. 2 A. -- and emotions; is that what you're asking me? 3 Q. Yes, sir. 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. In other words, you knew Joe for years, didn't 6 you? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. You had seen him working the folder in the past? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And you knew that he at one time was capable of 11 working the folder? 12 A. Good folder man, yes. 13 Q. The folder job hadn't changed, had it? 14 A. It had become more stressful, yes. 15 Q. That's just because production was up; right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. But that wasn't the problem that Joe was having, 18 was it? 19 A. I don't think so, no. 20 Q. The problem Joe was having was, is that by 21 virtue of his mental illness he couldn't handle the stress of 22 the folder; correct? 23 A. Nerves, mental illness, I guess, whatever you're 24 calling it. 25 Q. And what Joe wanted was to be taken off the 56 1 folder? 2 A. That's correct. 3 Q. But the reason he couldn't work the folder was 4 because of his underlying mental illness, wasn't it? 5 A. I think you've asked me that three times and I 6 keep saying yes, nerves, mental illness, emotional problems, 7 whatever. 8 Q. It wasn't Standard Gravure that caused him to be 9 mentally ill, was it? 10 A. I certainly think they contributed to his 11 problems along with all the rest of us that worked there. 12 Q. Did Standard Gravure cause Mr. Joseph Wesbecker 13 to be manic depressive, bipolar? 14 A. I don't think I'm qualified to answer that. 15 Q. Well, in your opinion? 16 A. I think they had a lot to do with it. They 17 certainly disturbed me. 18 Q. Are you suffering from some mental illness, sir? 19 A. I think like a lot of people down there, I have 20 emotional disturbance from that to this day, yes. 21 Q. Are you -- have you heard about the theory or 22 belief that the mental illness of major depressive disorder is 23 a result of an imbalance in the serotonin system? Know 24 anything about that? 25 A. Only what I read. 57 1 Q. All right. Joe never threatened you, did he? 2 A. As I said earlier, yes, but not with death. He 3 threatened me to the extent that he said he would -- he would 4 never vote for me again and he would do all he could to see to 5 it that I was never elected to the office of president again. 6 And up later, threats were that he was going to try to do 7 something, and I have no idea what that was, to get me taken 8 out of office. 9 Q. Did you ever fear, physically, Joseph Wesbecker? 10 A. No, I did not. 11 Q. What were the threats? Were they -- did you 12 think that they were threats that would actually come to 13 fruition or do you think they were just manifestations of his 14 frustration about his situation? 15 A. His threats to me, sir, about having me taken 16 out of office? 17 Q. Yeah. 18 A. I didn't think it would come to anything, no. 19 Q. Beg your pardon? 20 A. Excuse me. I didn't think they would come to 21 anything. I mean, I knew of no way he could have me taken out 22 of office, just an idle threat. 23 Q. Well, you think his statements that he was going 24 to try to get you removed from office was a threat of 25 violence? 58 1 A. I don't know that I gave it much thought at the 2 time. He was mad, so I guess it was a threat of some sort of 3 violence, yeah. 4 Q. Well, didn't other members express 5 dissatisfaction from time to time on what you were doing? 6 A. They sure did. Yes, sir. 7 Q. And did other members express that they were 8 trying to get you out of your job? 9 A. Not quite as violently as Joe did, no. 10 Q. What was violent about what Joe did, sir? 11 A. He became red in the face, agitated, jerking and 12 very loud voice and boisterous. 13 Q. And when was that? 14 A. That was toward the end of Joe's life. Probably 15 the last time I saw him, like I said, maybe a month or so 16 before this incident, two months. 17 Q. Okay. 18 A. Something like that. 19 Q. Did you ever take any efforts to have Joe barred 20 from the premises at Standard Gravure? 21 A. No. No. 22 Q. Did you ever call security on Joe Wesbecker? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Did you ever call the police on Joe Wesbecker? 25 A. No. 59 1 Q. Why? You never felt him a threat; right, sir? 2 A. Not really, no. 3 Q. All right. Those conversations that you had 4 with Joe Wesbecker on Page 138 of your deposition -- 5 A. One thirty-eight, sir? 6 Q. Yes, sir. 7 A. Well, here we go. Okay. What is it, sir? 8 Q. Page 138, beginning with Line 1. "Question: 9 Did you hear talk that he" -- and we're speaking of Wesbecker 10 there -- "had threatened the company or people inside the 11 company in connection with issues or problems that he claimed 12 that he had?" 13 Your answer there was: "Yes, sir. Hearsay." 14 Correct? 15 A. Uh-huh. 16 Q. Then the next question is: "What sort of 17 hearsay did you become aware of that involved him and threats 18 against the company" -- well, I take that back. This is 19 talking about Jim Lucas, isn't it? 20 MR. STOPHER: Can he complete the answer, Your 21 Honor? 22 JUDGE POTTER: Well, he's changed his question. 23 Go ahead, Mr. Smith. 24 Q. Read there at Page 137 and see if you're not 25 talking about Jim Lucas at that time. 60 1 MR. STOPHER: Could I ask what line? 2 MR. SMITH: The entire page. I'm not talking 3 to -- 4 JUDGE POTTER: He's asking him to read it to 5 himself. 6 Q. Seems like it's talking about -- 7 A. You're talking about Page 137? Let's look at it 8 in context. 9 Q. I'm going to get it right in a minute, Mr. 10 Frazier. Let's start here, 137, Line 23. Are you with me? 11 You just got that little-bitty print deposition? 12 A. Yeah. That's okay. I can get with you here. 13 Q. No. We're not going to -- I can't read those, 14 either. I have to give those things to some younger lawyers. 15 Page 137, Question, Line 23, Counsel. Look here with me. 16 This is the same thing, it's just bigger. It's written in 17 English like you and I learned in big type so we can read it. 18 "Question: Did Jim Lucas ever threaten anybody? 19 "Answer: I don't recall that he ever threatened 20 anybody in my presence." Right? 21 A. That's what it says, yeah. 22 Q. And that's accurate, isn't it? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Then on Page 138, and I'll just let you read 25 along here with me beginning on Line 1, "Question: Did you 61 1 hear talk that he" -- and they're talking about Jim Lucas 2 there; right? 3 A. Uh-huh. 4 Q. -- "had threatened the company or people inside 5 the company in connection with issues or problems that he 6 claimed he had?" 7 Your answer there was: "Yes, sir. Hearsay." 8 Next question is: "What sort of hearsay did you 9 become aware of that involved him and threats against the 10 company?" Right? 11 A. Uh-huh. 12 Q. Your answer is: "My best memory at this point 13 in time is very general; that he, like Joe Wesbecker, was very 14 dissatisfied with the resolution of some of his problems and 15 the way some of the related issues were being handled by the 16 company and by management personnel, and he" -- again meaning 17 Mr. Lucas -- "also had some problems with fellow workers and 18 he even had some problems with me more than -- well, I 19 shouldn't say more so because that's not accurate. But 20 whereas Joe Wesbecker and I never really had any negative 21 conversations, Jim Lucas and I had several rather serious, 22 negative conversations regarding how he felt the union ought 23 to do and what we ought to do and when we ought to do it and 24 that sort of thing." Correct, sir? 25 A. That's what it says. 62 1 Q. So you're saying here that you and Mr. Wesbecker 2 never really had any negative conversations, aren't you? 3 A. That's what it says. 4 Q. In connection -- turn with me to Page 125 of 5 your deposition and we're going to read several pages here 6 because it's your statement, is it not, Mr. Frazier, that Mr. 7 Wesbecker was in your office or in the plant many times 8 complaining to you; is that right? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. After he was given long-term disability; is that 11 right, sir? Is that right, sir? 12 A. After he was given long-term disability? 13 Q. Right. 14 A. Are you talking about that period between August 15 and November again? 16 Q. No. I'm this time going to take it all the way 17 up from August of '88 until September 14th, 1989, and I'm 18 talking with you specifically about occasions where you saw 19 him or you and he visited concerning his discontent with his 20 situation and the problems at work. Okay, sir? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Beginning on Page 125, Line 2 -- Line 4: 23 "Question: He didn't mention to you why he was claiming that 24 he was disabled? 25 "Answer: No, sir. 63 1 "Question: It is my understanding that the last 2 date that he actually worked at Standard Gravure was August 6, 3 1988. Do you know why he stopped working?" 4 Your answer was: "No, sir; I don't." Correct, 5 sir? 6 A. It says. 7 Q. "Question: Do you know what he did after he 8 stopped working? 9 "Answer: No, not at that time, certainly." 10 MR. STOPHER: No, not all the time, certainly. 11 Q. No, not all -- not all the time certainly. Are 12 you able to read that? 13 A. I'm following you. 14 Q. If you have a problem -- I know you've got the 15 small print, and Mr. Stopher may correct us both if we have a 16 problem. 17 Beginning on Line 14 of that same page, 18 "Question: I know not all the time. Do you have any -- did 19 you have any contact with him after he stopped working? And I 20 know there are some documents here that are dated after 21 August 6, 1988, and you told me something about the contacts 22 on those dates. Were there other times or occasions that you 23 would see him after he stopped working?" Correct? 24 A. That's what it says. 25 Q. Your answer was: "Yes, there were. As I 64 1 recall, I can't tell you the numbers -- he called me once or 2 twice and I ran into him, as I told you I think previously, in 3 the building. He was coming in to deal with some matter he 4 had to deal with after his termination or his cessation from 5 work, whatever you want to call it, so I saw him on those 6 occasions for passing comments and that sort of thing." 7 Correct? 8 A. That's what it says, sir. 9 Q. That's what your answer was then; correct? 10 A. It is, yes. 11 Q. Continuing on Page 2 -- on Line 2, "Question: 12 Did he give you any information about himself on any of those 13 occasions?" 14 Your answer was: "Again, I recall no specifics 15 other than what we've discussed. He was talking about getting 16 disability perhaps from the company; perhaps I think workers' 17 compensation was even mentioned, Social Security. It seems 18 like a catchall thing, and he was just trying to get some 19 income wherever he thought he could possibly get some income. 20 "Question: Did he ever mention to you that 21 Standard Gravure had sent him a letter advising him that his 22 disability payments would be reduced? 23 "Answer: I don't have a clear recollection of 24 that. It seems to me there was some comment made to that 25 effect, but I have no clear recollection. 65 1 "Question: Did he discuss what he felt about 2 Standard Gravure after he had stopped working? 3 "Answer: Oh, yes. He was very bitter. He 4 blamed them for a lot of troubles, rightfully or wrongful, I 5 don't know. I listened and sympathized with him and let it go 6 at that. 7 "Question: When he would express that 8 bitterness, did he ever try to mention trying to -- did he 9 ever mention trying to get even or in some way make it right? 10 "Answer: Other than what I've already told you, 11 no." That's about the workers' comp, correct, was what you 12 had already told them; right? 13 A. I believe -- perhaps I already mentioned about 14 in trying to get even in some way. 15 Q. No. The last thing you had mentioned about that 16 was the conversation you had had with Mr. Lucas when Mr. 17 Wesbecker was on Prozac where there was a discussion between 18 Mr. Lucas and Mr. Wesbecker about the plant. 19 MR. STOPHER: Objection, Your Honor. 20 JUDGE POTTER: I'm going to sustain the 21 objection. You can read questions and answers and if you need 22 to read them again, you can. 23 Q. "After he stopped working did he ever mention to 24 you what he was going to do in the future? 25 "Answer: No, sir. He seemed confused about 66 1 what he was going to be doing. Other than pursuing some form 2 of disability, he was very disjointed about what the rest of 3 his life had in store for him. 4 "Question: Did he mention to you any interests 5 that he had after he stopped working? 6 "Answer: No, sir, none at all. 7 "Question: After he stopped working did you 8 ever visit in his home? 9 "Answer: No, sir. 10 "Question: Did he ever invite you to come 11 visit? 12 "Answer: After he stopped working? 13 "Question: Yes, sir. 14 "Not that I recall. He may have, but I don't 15 recall. 16 "Question: Had you been in his home before he 17 stopped working? 18 "Answer: No, sir; I don't believe I ever was. 19 Now, skip with me to Page 128, Question, Line 20 13. Do you see it? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. "When was the last time that you think you saw 23 him before the shooting occurred on September 14th, 1989? 24 "Answer: That's hard to say. A month or two 25 maybe when he came in the building for whatever reasons. 67 1 That's the best I can. 2 "Question: Would he come in as often as once a 3 month? 4 "Answer: It seems to me like he did. I really 5 didn't pay that much attention. He was back and forth there 6 for a while. It seemed to me like he was trying to get 7 paperwork and disability problems straightened out and that 8 sort of thing, so it seemed to me like he was coming in on a 9 fairly regular basis." Right, sir? 10 A. Uh-huh. 11 Q. Correct, sir? 12 A. That's what it says. 13 Q. But you don't say anything about any threats or 14 any expressions of hostility that he was making against you or 15 the union or the company, do you, sir? 16 A. No, not in those pages. No. 17 Q. Well, you didn't anywhere, did you? You didn't 18 mention this to anybody in your deposition that Joe Wesbecker 19 was continuing to issue any kind of threats after he was off 20 in August of 1988, did you? 21 A. I have no idea, sir. There's 177 pages there. 22 I thought that perhaps I would have at some point said that, 23 but if you said I didn't, I'll take your word for it. 24 Q. All right. Has your memory improved since you 25 gave your deposition, sir? 68 1 A. I don't think it's improved or got any worse, 2 sir. I think you've asked me questions that probably 3 stimulated some memories that the questions here didn't 4 evidently stimulate at that time. 5 Q. All right. Did you ever do anything -- if these 6 threats did occur, did you ever do anything about these 7 threats? 8 A. No. I told you awhile ago I didn't do anything. 9 Q. Beg your pardon? 10 A. I told you awhile ago I didn't do anything. 11 Q. Because you didn't consider them to be anything 12 indicative of any specific violent intent on Joe Wesbecker's 13 part, did you? 14 A. Hindsight's a wonderful thing, but it seems like 15 I was pretty stupid, but you're right. 16 Q. Well, all you could do was exercise your best 17 judgment at the time; right? 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. And your best judgment at the time was that Joe 20 Wesbecker didn't present any type of threat to Standard 21 Gravure at the time? 22 A. That's correct. 23 MR. SMITH: Just a second, Your Honor. 24 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. 25 MR. SMITH: That's all. 69 1 JUDGE POTTER: Anything further, Mr. Stopher? 2 MR. STOPHER: No, Your Honor. 3 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much, sir. You 4 may step down. You're excused. 5 MR. FRAZIER: Thank you, sir. 6 JUDGE POTTER: Ladies and gentlemen, we're going 7 to take the morning recess. As I've mentioned to you-all 8 before, do not permit anybody to talk to you about this case. 9 Do not discuss it among yourselves and do not form or express 10 opinions about it. We'll take a 15-minute recess. 11 (RECESS) 12 SHERIFF CECIL: The jury is now entering. All 13 jurors are present. Court is back in session. 14 JUDGE POTTER: Please be seated. 15 Mr. Stopher, do you want to call your next 16 witness. 17 MR. STOPHER: James Lucas, Your Honor. 18 JUDGE POTTER: Sir, would you raise your right 19 hand, please. 20 21 JAMES LUCAS, after first being duly sworn, was 22 examined and testified as follows: 23 24 JUDGE POTTER: Would you have a seat where my 25 sheriff indicates and then say your name very loudly and 70 1 clearly for the jury and spell it. 2 MR. LUCAS: My name is James R. Lucas. Lucas, 3 L-U-C-A-S. 4 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. And keep your voice up and 5 answer Mr. Stopher's questions. 6 7 EXAMINATION ___________ 8 9 BY_MR._STOPHER: __ ___ _______ 10 Q. Mr. Lucas, where do you live, sir? 11 A. 4204 Summerview Drive, Valley Station. 12 Q. And how old are you, sir? 13 A. Fifty-nine. 14 Q. Are you employed at the present time, sir? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Where were you last employed, sir? 17 A. Standard Gravure printing company. 18 Q. And when did you last work there, sir? 19 A. January the 29th of '92. 20 Q. Mr. Lucas, approximately when did you start work 21 at Standard Gravure? 22 A. May the 17th, I think it was, 1971. 23 Q. And before you started at Standard Gravure where 24 did you work, sir? 25 A. I worked at the old Fawcett-Dearing printing 71 1 company. 2 Q. And about when did you start there, sir? 3 A. I started there in 1955. 4 Q. And did you stay there until approximately May 5 of 1971, sir? 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q. Mr. Lucas, were you a pressman? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. You were a journeyman pressman? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Let me go back, sir. And I know it's a long 12 time ago, but let me go all the way back to the work at 13 Fawcett-Dearing printing facility; all right, sir? First of 14 all, where was that facility located? 15 A. Eleventh and Broadway. 16 Q. And what sort of a printing facility was it, 17 sir? 18 A. They printed magazines such as True Confession, 19 Woman's Day. 20 Q. And how did you happen to leave there, sir, in 21 May of 1971? 22 A. I was on the negotiating committee for a 23 contract and found out that the company was pulling roots and 24 moving to Salem, Illinois. I didn't want to relocate, so I 25 applied for employment at Standard Gravure. 72 1 Q. And then, if I understand correctly, you worked 2 continuously at Standard Gravure as a pressman from '71 until 3 the beginning of '92? 4 A. That's correct. 5 Q. All right, sir. Mr. Lucas, going back again to 6 the Fawcett-Dearing work, did you have an occasion to meet Joe 7 Wesbecker at Fawcett in those days, sir? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And was he a pressman there like yourself? 10 A. He ended up as a pressman; he started out as a 11 fly-boy. 12 Q. I think that's the way everybody starts out, if 13 I have this drill down by now, sir. Certainly you started out 14 that way, too? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. All right. Did you help train him, sir, at the 17 old Fawcett facility? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And when he was a fly-boy were you already a 20 journeyman or perhaps an apprentice? 21 A. I was an apprentice. 22 Q. So you were one step up on the ladder? 23 A. Correct. 24 Q. And did you and he become friends? 25 A. Yes. 73 1 Q. Mr. Lucas, in those days at Fawcett, did Mr. 2 Wesbecker have other friends besides yourself? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Who were some of his friends back in those days, 5 sir? 6 A. Well, he had his -- what I considered close 7 friends was a fellow by the name of Tim Lattray, Richard 8 Schmaltz, Charlie Wilson, myself. 9 Q. Did you know a man named Donald Jackson there, 10 sir? 11 A. Yes. And his brother, Bob. 12 Q. Were either one of them friends with Joe 13 Wesbecker? 14 A. Yes. Yes. Donald was. 15 Q. Now, sir, back at Fawcett in those early days 16 with Joe Wesbecker, did you and he get to be more than just 17 working companions? Did you get to be friends or perhaps even 18 close friends? 19 A. Yes. We became friends after hours, going out 20 and drinking and partying and such. 21 Q. Did he tell you, sir, about himself and about 22 where he came from? 23 A. Not for quite a while, maybe six or seven years. 24 Q. And were you still working at Fawcett or were 25 both of you at Standard? 74 1 A. We were still at Fawcett. 2 Q. What sorts of things would he tell you about 3 himself and about where he came from, sir? 4 A. He would talk about his childhood, but he 5 wouldn't elaborate too much on it. I know I always thought it 6 was strange that he considered his grandmother a mother. I 7 thought his grandmother was his mother for years, only to find 8 out that it was his grandmother. That kind of surprised me. 9 Q. What did he call his grandmother? 10 A. A lot of times he just referred to her as Mom. 11 Q. Back in those early days, sir, at Fawcett, what 12 kind of a worker was he, sir? 13 A. He was a hard worker. 14 Q. What kind of hours would he work? 15 A. He would work anywhere from 12 to 16 hours a 16 day, 7 days a week. 17 Q. Did he tell you or did you learn why he worked 18 those kind of hours? 19 A. He said that he wanted to give his family a 20 better life than what he had. 21 Q. Mr. Lucas, in going back to those days, did Mr. 22 Wesbecker have any interest in guns or in hunting? 23 A. Not that I'm aware of. 24 Q. Back in those days, sir, when he worked at 25 Fawcett, did he have any nicknames? 75 1 A. Well, he had two nicknames, one was Pinky and 2 the other one was Sweat. I called him Sweat. 3 Q. How did he get the nickname Pinky, sir? 4 A. Well, if you'll excuse me, I'm not trying to 5 refer to it being anything racial or bias. It referred to the 6 movie Pinky. He had some of the features of the 7 African-American, the kinky, curly hair. 8 Q. Didn't it relate to his color, reddish hair? 9 A. No. It's just his feature that, like I say, it 10 had some dark complexion and the kinky hair. 11 Q. Where did he get the nickname Pillsbury 12 Doughboy? 13 A. I heard the name Pillsbury Doughboy after I come 14 to Standard. 15 Q. Did he at that time have a family at Fawcett? 16 A. When he first came there, the only one that he 17 had was his -- he wasn't married; he was living with his 18 grandparents. 19 Q. Living with his grandmother? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Did he get married while you knew him, sir? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And did he talk about his wife and about his 24 family to you? 25 A. The only thing he ever mentioned to me was in 76 1 regards to his sons. 2 Q. What sorts of things would he say about his 3 sons? 4 A. Well, that sometimes he was just upset, you 5 know, with the things they were doing. 6 Q. Let me go back, sir. I think I got us a little 7 bit ahead of the time clock. When he worked at Fawcett, you 8 transferred or left Fawcett and went to Standard Gravure? 9 A. That's correct. 10 Q. And did he do the same thing, sir? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Why did he do it? 13 A. I guess just because he didn't want to relocate, 14 either. 15 Q. If he had stayed with Fawcett he'd have to go to 16 where? 17 A. Salem, Illinois. 18 Q. All right. And he would rather go to -- stay 19 here in Louisville and go to Standard Gravure? 20 A. Correct. 21 Q. You started at Standard in May of '71. About 22 when did he start, sir? 23 A. I don't recall exactly when Joe came in. I 24 think it was approximately seven or eight months later. 25 Q. Okay. Mr. Lucas, when the both of you started 77 1 at Standard Gravure then in the early 1970s, what was he like 2 in those days, sir? 3 A. Just a happy-go-lucky guy. 4 Q. What were his interests at that time, sir? 5 A. I don't recall outside of having sports, you 6 know, basketball. 7 Q. What about his family, sir? 8 A. Naturally, he was interested in his family. He 9 cared for his family quite a bit. 10 Q. Did he have any interest in money or in 11 investing? 12 A. Yes. In stocks. 13 Q. What was that interest? How would he -- did he 14 ever talk about it to you, sir? 15 A. He was always reading the stock markets in the 16 paper and talking about what he invested his money in. 17 Q. Did he ever talk about how he managed his money? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Did he talk about spending money or saving money 20 or how -- what was his attitude? 21 A. Well, he was always -- the first part of the -- 22 when he first come to Standard he was always kind of close, 23 but after a while he loosened up as far as spending, you know. 24 Q. Now, sir, in those early days at Standard, what 25 kind of a worker was he? 78 1 A. He was a good worker. 2 Q. Did he work all the jobs on the press? 3 A. He worked, yes. 4 Q. Was there any particular job on the press that 5 he wanted to work or that he didn't want to work? 6 A. Well, anywhere there was the most money was 7 where he wanted to work. 8 Q. And where was that, sir? 9 A. That was the first and second man in charge on 10 the press. 11 Q. And did he want to work that job or not? 12 A. Up until a certain point. Then he started 13 having marital problems, then he wanted to get off the folder. 14 Q. Mr. Lucas, in the 1970s, did he have any 15 problems with his family that you became aware of, sir? 16 A. In the '70s? 17 Q. Yes, sir. 18 A. He was having trouble with his first wife. 19 Q. Did he talk with you about that, sir? 20 A. Not really elaborate on anything particular. I 21 knew that he was messing around on her. 22 Q. And did he talk to you about divorce? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. What sorts of things did he say to you about the 25 divorce with Sue? 79 1 A. He was talking about how nasty it would probably 2 be. I think his biggest concern about it was his two boys, 3 what it would do to them. 4 Q. What was the situation with them at that time, 5 as far as what he told you, sir? 6 A. Well, he was having trouble with the oldest one 7 in regards to something about an operation that he wanted the 8 boy to have, and the boy didn't like the percentages of the 9 operation, and they had quite a fallout over that. 10 Subsequently, it ended up where they stopped seeing each other 11 for a long time. He wouldn't have nothing to do with Kevin 12 for a long time. 13 Q. What about the situation with the other son? 14 A. Well, Jimmy, he had trouble with Jimmy later on 15 in regards to being arrested for different reasons, and that 16 upset him something terrible because he had built everything 17 around that one son, Jimmy. 18 Q. Did -- how did he come through the divorce 19 proceedings and how did he come out of it, sir? 20 A. He never was the same after that. 21 Q. In what way, sir? 22 A. Moody. 23 Q. How would he be moody? 24 A. Like before, he would cut up and go on, you 25 know, and he just stopped doing that. He got to the point to 80 1 where he started being a recluse, he didn't have much to say. 2 Q. After the divorce, did he meet another woman or 3 other women, sir? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. What did he tell you about that? 6 A. He just told me he had dates. He tried to get 7 me and the wife to go out on dates with him, and we didn't -- 8 we didn't go with them. 9 Q. And did he remarry or tell you that he was going 10 to remarry? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Did you have any relationship, sir, socially 13 with his second wife, either you or your wife? 14 A. None whatsoever. 15 Q. Did you have much social relationship with Joe 16 Wesbecker when he was married to Brenda? 17 A. Outside of with his boys and going down on the 18 floodwall on Greenwood Road and watch people down there fly 19 model airplanes, and the boating docks and stuff like that, 20 and go to ball games. 21 Q. You would go with Joe Wesbecker to those kinds 22 of things? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And did you say one of his sons went with you? 25 A. Well, sometimes Jimmy went; a lot of times he 81 1 wouldn't, he didn't. 2 Q. Who would go when Jimmy didn't go? 3 A. It would just be me and him. 4 Q. You and Joe Wesbecker? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Did Joe Wesbecker have any contact with Kevin, 7 the older son? 8 A. Not for a long time. 9 Q. Mr. Lucas, did the marriage with Brenda end or 10 terminate in divorce, sir? 11 A. It ended in divorce. 12 Q. Did Joe Wesbecker talk with you about that? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. What did he have to say about that, sir? 15 A. He seemed to think that Brenda was still seeing 16 her husband, her first husband. 17 Q. And after that divorce, did you notice any 18 changes in him, sir? 19 A. Well, he just got more recluse and moody. 20 Q. When you say he got more recluse, where -- 21 A. Less associate. 22 Q. Would it be on the job? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. How would he be a recluse on the job? 25 A. He'd walk off and sit on a bench by hisself, get 82 1 a cup of coffee, walk out in different areas and sit by 2 hisself. 3 Q. What had he done before? 4 A. Always before he'd get right into the center of 5 the crowd that was sitting around drinking and discussing 6 things and joke and cut up with them. 7 Q. What about outside of work? Was he a recluse or 8 did he have the change there? 9 A. He just -- only thing he would do outside of 10 work, at first he would go out with some of the other fellows 11 out at work. He joined this Media Mix that the company had 12 membership dealings with down on Broadway, the old YWCA or 13 YMCA, and he would go down there and he would go with 14 different fellows, you know, drinking but, of course, I didn't 15 go because I had quit drinking. 16 Q. Did he keep on going to the Media Mix and going 17 out drinking with people after work? 18 A. Well, he did for quite a while, and then he had 19 a run-in with a news commentator -- I can't even think of the 20 guy's name -- Jim Mitchell, down at the Media Mix and then he 21 stopped going down there. 22 Q. Did he have a nickname after that, sir? 23 A. Rocky. 24 Q. Did you ever hear him called anything else in 25 the latter years at Standard Gravure? 83 1 A. No. 2 Q. Rocky? 3 A. Rocky. 4 Q. Mr. Lucas, during the 1980s, did you sometimes 5 hear Joe Wesbecker talk about working the folder? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. What sorts of things would he say about that, 8 sir? 9 A. He was talking about how nervous and tore up he 10 was about his broken marriages and the way things had ended 11 and he wanted to get away from the folder. 12 Q. Did he say what the folder would do to him? 13 A. He just said that it beared too much pressure on 14 him. 15 Q. He had wanted to work the job before, both at 16 Fawcett and at Standard? 17 A. Correct. 18 Q. Did he ask you to help him out in getting off 19 the folder? 20 A. No. 21 Q. What did he do to try to get off of it? 22 A. I said something to him about going -- we had a 23 counselor down at work, about going to see Pat Lampton. 24 Q. And did he go see Pat Lampton? 25 A. I think -- I'm not sure, but I would assume he 84 1 did. 2 Q. Did he do anything else about that, sir? 3 A. He ended up getting an attorney to do his 4 battling for him. He went to the union and received no 5 satisfaction, then he went and got him an attorney. 6 Q. Mr. Lucas, did he ever talk to you about his 7 attitude toward the foremen at Standard Gravure in the latter 8 years? 9 A. Yes. Quite often. 10 Q. What kinds of things would he say to you, sir? 11 A. There was a lot of things. He would discuss a 12 lot of them because they wouldn't take him away from the 13 folder. He said he'd go in the office and they told him if he 14 didn't like his damn job to quit, and it would irritate him 15 something terrible. 16 Q. What would he do when he got irritated, sir? 17 A. You could tell it made him mad, and he would 18 just come out and -- well, he'd just lose his temper, you 19 know. 20 Q. When he would lose his temper on the job, sir, 21 what did you see him do? 22 A. Well, get red in the face, you know. You could 23 tell he was mad. 24 Q. Did anybody other than yourself -- well, let me 25 back up, sir. 85 1 Did you ever work down in the reel room with 2 him, sir? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And was that a job that he liked? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Was that a job that would allow you and he to 7 talk some more? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Did you ever see him with a gun? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. When approximately was that, sir? 12 A. It's hard to recall, but I think it was in the 13 latter part or early part -- latter part of '86 or the earlier 14 part of '87. 15 Q. Where were you, sir? 16 A. Down in the reel room. 17 Q. And is that -- 18 A. In the basement. 19 Q. It's underneath the pressroom? 20 A. Printing presses; correct. 21 Q. And is there one reel man for each press? 22 A. Right. 23 Q. What do you recall about that occasion, sir? 24 A. Well, on this particular day he was working on 25 overtime, and he came downstairs and asked me -- both of us 86 1 was working overtime. He came downstairs and asked me if I 2 wanted to go to lunch first or I wanted him to go to lunch 3 first. I told him it didn't make any difference to me, you 4 know. And he had a brown sack with him. And I was kidding 5 him, I said, "Well, it really doesn't make any difference to 6 you because you're going to be eating your lunch during the 7 time you're watching the reel, anyway." And he said, "No. 8 This is no lunch." I said, "What is it," and he opened it up 9 and showed me it was a pistol. 10 Q. Was the pistol loaded? 11 A. I don't recall. I couldn't see whether it had 12 any bullets in the chambers or not. 13 Q. Did you open up the brown bag and look into the 14 brown bag, sir? 15 A. He opened it up and showed me. 16 Q. He opened it up. Let me see if this -- do you 17 recall testifying, Mr. Lucas, under oath on June 23, 1992, -- 18 it's been about two years and several months ago, about two 19 and a half years ago, really, sir -- under oath in this case, 20 sir? Do you recall doing that? 21 A. I guess. I recall the depositions and 22 everything. 23 Q. Yes, sir. That's what I'm talking about is the 24 deposition; right? 25 A. Correct. 87 1 Q. Let me ask you if you gave these answers and if 2 this in any way refreshes your recollection. Page 93, 3 Question, Line 22: "And when he showed it to you, do you know 4 what type of pistol it was? 5 "Answer: I want to say -- I know it was nickel 6 plated, and it was -- I'd say it looked like a .32. 7 "Question: And was it short nosed or long 8 nosed? 9 "Answer: Barrel approximately that long 10 (indicating). I'd say three inches. 11 "Question: All right. When he showed it to 12 you, did you know or did he tell you whether or not it had 13 ammunition in it? 14 "Answer: It was loaded. 15 "Question: How did you know that? Did he tell 16 you or did you just see it? 17 "Answer: I looked at it because that's what I 18 was going to do. I was going to try to get him to go get us a 19 cup of coffee and I was going to take the shells away from 20 him." Do you recall that, sir? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Is that still accurate? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Mr. Lucas, when he showed you that pistol and 25 that -- in that brown paper bag, was it just you and he there, 88 1 sir? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And when he showed it to you, did you ask him 4 why he had that there? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And what did he say, sir? 7 A. He said he was going to shoot a foreman. 8 Q. Who did he say he was going to shoot? 9 A. James Popham. 10 Q. Did he tell you, sir, why he was going to shoot 11 Popham? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And why was that, sir? 14 A. In our contract it says if a holiday falls on 15 your off day that we can -- you have the option of moving that 16 day anywhere you wanted for 30 days. He went into the office, 17 and while he was in the office Jim Sitzler -- which was -- at 18 the time was an acting foreman but Jim Popham was working that 19 day -- Jim Sitzler had Popham to change his off day on the 20 markup sheet so that would give him the option of moving his 21 day for 30 days. 22 Well, Wesbecker tried to do the same thing 23 because he had something planned and he knew that he needed a 24 guarantee for a certain off day coming up in the next two 25 weeks. So he tried to get Popham to move his off day and he 89 1 wouldn't do it, and it upset him. And they argued about it 2 and one thing led to another and he just got mad at him. 3 Q. When you heard that, sir, did you take it 4 seriously? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. You didn't think it was a joke? 7 A. Not when I saw the gun. 8 Q. Did you attempt to take the gun away from him, 9 sir? 10 A. No. What I was figuring on doing was I was 11 going to take the gun when he went out to lunch, but he took 12 it with him. 13 Q. Mr. Lucas, he showed you the gun and then did he 14 take the gun and the bag and leave where you were? 15 A. Yes. 16 MR. SMITH: Objection. Leading. 17 JUDGE POTTER: Sustained. 18 Q. After he showed you the gun in the bag, what did 19 he do, sir? 20 A. He took it and went on to lunch. 21 Q. Okay. Mr. Lucas, did you report this? 22 A. Yes. After he left, I went over to -- they had 23 a telephone on the wall in the basement and I called the 24 office and got ahold of Donald Cox, and Cox was getting ready 25 to leave so he turned it over to Jim Popham. And I told Jim 90 1 that whenever he could, "Stay shy of Joe tonight because he's 2 got a gun and he said he's going to shoot you with it." 3 Q. Did you call that same night, sir? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And when you say you called the office, which 6 office is that, sir? 7 A. The one in the next floor up in Area Two 8 pressroom. 9 Q. And when you told that to Mr. Popham, what was 10 his response? 11 A. He said, "I guess I'd just better stay out of 12 his way." 13 Q. Did anybody recontact you about that in any way 14 whatsoever, sir? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Do you know if Joe Wesbecker came back from 17 lunch with the brown bag and the pistol? 18 A. No. As a matter of fact, -- I don't recall 19 whether he brought it back with him or not, honestly. 20 Q. Did anybody, to your knowledge, sir, ever talk 21 to Joe Wesbecker that night about that gun and about what he 22 had said? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Did anybody, after that, ever follow up with you 25 and ask you any questions about what had happened or what you 91 1 had seen? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Anything change at all? 4 A. The only thing that changed was that particular 5 night Jim Popham was the foreman, and Jim was always around 6 keeping an eye on the help; he was continually circulating 7 from the reel room to the pressroom. And I never saw that man 8 at all the whole night. There was no foreman on the floor at 9 all that night. 10 Q. What about foremen other than Jim Popham? 11 A. (Shakes head negatively). No foremen. 12 Q. Mr. Lucas, were there ever times that Joe 13 Wesbecker would not speak to people? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Can you tell us what you recall about those 16 instances, sir? 17 A. Well, just like I say, there was times when he 18 would go off and be recluse and wouldn't associate with 19 anybody. 20 Q. How long would those times last, sir? 21 A. Sometimes it would last an hour and sometimes it 22 would last for days. 23 Q. Would it include you? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Were there certain people that he would not 92 1 speak to? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Can you tell us about those people? 4 A. It was Jim Popham, James Sitzler, David 5 Cheatham; those three stand out. I'm sure there's more but 6 that's the only ones I can recall right now. 7 Q. Well, let me ask you first of all, sir, about 8 David Cheatham. Do you know why he wouldn't speak to David 9 Cheatham? 10 A. Him and David had a -- almost had a fight down 11 in the reel room one night. Before Cheatham was made foreman 12 he was always joking and taking wrenches and beating around on 13 the press. And that upset pressmen, you know, when you do 14 that because it sounds like something's tearing up. But when 15 he made foreman everything was serious. Him and Joe had an 16 argument down in the reel room. Joe went after David, and he 17 had his foot locked in between what they called two stumps; 18 that's two rolls of paper that's run down so small. And they 19 were sitting together and David had his right leg locked into 20 those rolls and he couldn't get away, so I had to separate 21 them. That's the only time that I ever seen him reach and 22 grab somebody like that. It was strictly out of character. 23 Q. Did he speak to Cheatham after that, sir? 24 A. No. 25 Q. You mentioned Popham. Did he ever tell you why 93 1 he wouldn't speak to Popham? 2 A. Because of that not changing that day-off day. 3 Q. Just that one incident? 4 A. That one incident. 5 Q. What about Sitzler? 6 A. He disliked Sitzler because he was involved in 7 the situation, you know, he was allowed to do something. You 8 know, because he was considered an assistant foreman, the 9 rules were allowed to be bent and he didn't like Sitzler, 10 either. 11 Q. Did he speak to Donald Cox? 12 A. No. 13 Q. What was the reason for that or why did that 14 happen? 15 A. Well, Donald is the one that told him that he 16 had to work on the folder. 17 Q. Mr. Lucas, did he talk to you about LTD, or 18 long-term disability, with regard to himself? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. What sorts of things did he tell you about that, 21 sir? 22 A. He was trying to get -- he went to a doctor and 23 he was trying to get LTD on the basis that his body chemistry 24 had changed due to coming in contact with xylene, toluene and 25 xylo, the chemicals that we worked with. 94 1 Q. And what did he tell you about those chemicals 2 or about himself? 3 A. He said that he believed that some of those 4 chemicals were causing some of his problems. 5 Q. What problems did he say that he had? 6 A. His agitated problems, his dizziness. 7 Q. What sort of agitated problems did he have? 8 A. Well, like I say, there's times when he would 9 just get agitated and you could tell he was getting mad by the 10 redness in his face. 11 Q. Did you ever see him do anything else in those 12 instances, sir? 13 A. No. 14 Q. You mentioned dizziness. 15 A. He kept speaking of being dizzy, you know, 16 having headaches. 17 Q. What did he do to try to get disability or LTD? 18 A. He went to different doctors and then he, like I 19 say, he ended up seeking the legal help of a lawyer by the 20 name of Herb Segal. 21 Q. Was he successful in getting LTD or disability, 22 sir? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And at some point in time he stopped working at 25 Standard Gravure? 95 1 A. Correct. 2 Q. And went on LTD, or long-term disability? 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. According to the information that we have here, 5 that occurred on August 6, 1988; is that about right, as far 6 as you remember, sir? 7 A. I know it was the latter part of '88. 8 Q. And before the fire and explosion? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. Did he ever come back to work actively, I mean 11 as a worker working in the pressroom, after that time, sir? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Mr. Lucas, after he stopped working, did you see 14 him from time to time, sir? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And would you go to his house or would he come 17 to your house or would you meet someplace else? 18 A. Well, both. I would go over to his home and he 19 would come to mine. 20 Q. And if I understand correctly, sir, his house 21 was at 7300 Nottoway Circle? 22 A. Right. 23 Q. You'd sometimes go there? 24 A. Correct. 25 Q. Would you go into the house when you'd visit him 96 1 there or would you see him outside? 2 A. Only one time I saw him outside; the rest of the 3 time I would be inside. 4 Q. When you went inside, sir, how was he living at 5 that time? 6 A. Well, I guess under the circumstances, a man 7 living alone, he was doing the best he could. 8 Q. He was living alone? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. No other family members or friends there with 11 him? 12 A. No, not at that time. 13 Q. Did you notice anything different about the 14 house than on other occasions when you had been there, sir? 15 A. I knew from time to time that the kitchen would 16 be kind of cluttered, but as far as the living room, it would 17 be presentable. 18 Q. Was there light coming into the house? 19 A. No. As a matter of fact, the venetian blinds 20 were drawn closed. 21 Q. Why was that, sir? 22 A. I don't know. 23 Q. Did you ask him? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Did he tell you? 97 1 A. No. I know in August, you know, it's always 2 hot; sometimes I do that myself in order to keep the sun from 3 coming in. 4 Q. Did -- if I understand correctly, sir, in the 5 fall of 1988, did you go visit him before you had angioplasty, 6 or surgery on your heart? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And was it in his house, sir? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. And on those occasions -- was it more than 11 one -- more frequent than one occasion when you went to see 12 him, sir, or was it just once? 13 A. I can't recall. 14 Q. Okay. All right, sir. Do you recall anything 15 that the two of you talked about before you had your heart 16 angioplasty? 17 A. Outside of him trying to get me to go on LTD, 18 too, you know. 19 Q. Okay. Did he talk about his son Jimmy? 20 A. Yeah. 21 Q. What did he tell you about Jimmy? 22 A. He was having trouble with Jimmy exposing 23 hisself. 24 Q. Did he tell you what effect that was having on 25 him? 98 1 A. It had a great, great effect on him, because he 2 -- like I say, everything centered on Jimmy, you know, that 3 was... 4 Q. Did he talk to you about money? 5 A. Outside of his investments and considering on 6 moving his money from one bank to another, that was the extent 7 of it. 8 Q. Did he talk to you about the money he was 9 getting on LTD? 10 A. The only time that I recall him -- no, not as 11 far as money, no. 12 Q. Let me ask you if you remember this testimony, 13 sir. And again in your deposition, Page 113, sir, Line 8: 14 "Did he ever discuss with you his mental or emotional state? 15 "Yeah. At times he would. Like I say, his 16 nerves. He talked about going to see a doctor, you know, and 17 different medication he was taking, stuff like that, but that 18 would be the extent of it. 19 "Question: Did he tell you what his problems 20 were? 21 "Answer: Well, he would list a lot of problems 22 such as, like I say, being alone, wasn't making enough money 23 on LTD, so forth, so on. Different things like that, you 24 know." Does that refresh your memory at all, sir? 25 A. Yes. Yes, it does. 99 1 Q. What was -- what was his -- what were his 2 statements or what were his concerns about the money on LTD? 3 A. He didn't seem to think that he was making 4 enough and advised me that I might reconsider, if I thought 5 about LTD. 6 Q. Did he tell you what he was trying to do, if 7 anything, to get more money? 8 A. I don't recall. 9 Q. Okay, sir. Mr. Lucas, on that occasion in the 10 fall of 1988, before your heart angioplasty, did he tell you 11 anything about guns? 12 A. Like I say, there's a lot of things I don't 13 recall, you know. 14 Q. Did you ever see any guns or weapons at his 15 house? 16 A. One time I saw -- yes, one time. 17 Q. And when was that, sir? 18 A. I went by for a visit and he had a -- like a 19 what we call a ditty bag or a duffel bag. It was opened. 20 Q. Did you look in it? 21 A. I just glanced at it. 22 Q. When you glanced, what did you see? 23 A. I just saw the stock of a gun. That's all. 24 Q. Where was that bag, sir? 25 A. It was sitting next to the steps that go up into 100 1 the upper bedroom. 2 Q. Now, sir, if I understand correctly, you had 3 this surgery in the fall of 1988 and, if I recall correctly, 4 sir, you came back to work in the fall of '88; am I right? 5 A. Right. 6 Q. And do you recall the day that you came back to 7 work, sir? 8 A. Yes. I believe it was the 8th of November. 9 Q. And is that the date of the fire or the big 10 explosion, sir? 11 A. No. The date of the fire was the 10th. 12 Q. Two days later? 13 A. Correct. 14 Q. You were injured? 15 A. Right. 16 Q. Severely injured? 17 A. Right. 18 Q. You were taken to the hospital? 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. Did Joe Wesbecker come visit you in the 21 hospital, sir? 22 A. One time. 23 Q. Did he talk with you on that occasion, sir? 24 A. Just asked how am I doing and if there was 25 anything I needed. 101 1 Q. Did he say anything else to you? 2 A. I don't recall. Nothing outstanding that I 3 would recall. 4 Q. Let me refer you again, sir, to the deposition, 5 Page 155, and see if this refreshes your memory, Line 3. 6 "Question: He obviously must have expressed 7 some sympathy for the injuries that happened to you. 8 "Answer: Sure, he did. 9 "Did he express any sympathy for any of the 10 other people that had been injured or burned? 11 "Answer: No. As a matter of fact, the other 12 guy that got burned with me was James Sitzler and he didn't 13 ask about him at all. He was in the next room, you know. 14 "Question: Did he say anything at all about 15 Sitzler getting burned? 16 "Answer: No. 17 "Question: He just said it was a damn shame the 18 whole thing didn't go up so they wouldn't reopen it? 19 MR. SMITH: Couldn't reopen it. 20 Q. "-- couldn't reopen it? 21 "Answer: Yeah." 22 Did he make that statement to you, sir? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Let me go back to Page 154, Line 23: "Do you 25 recall anything that he said to you on that occasion? 102 1 "Answer: No. He just said it's a damn shame 2 the place didn't blow up where they could close it down; 3 that's all he said." Is that still accurate, sir? 4 A. That sounds pretty accurate. 5 Q. Mr. Lucas, you were in the hospital for some 6 period of time after that fire and explosion and then off of 7 work for some period of time, sir? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. About Thanksgivingtime of 1988, you were still 10 recovering and were off work? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Did you attempt to get in touch with Joe 13 Wesbecker? 14 A. Yes. Two days before Thanksgiving. 15 Q. What do you recall about that, sir? 16 A. I tried to call him and ask him if he wanted to 17 come over for dinner. 18 Q. What was his response? 19 A. No. 20 Q. What about Christmastime? 21 A. Same thing, if he wanted to spend Christmas with 22 us. He declined. 23 Q. Mr. Lucas, after the first of the year in '89, 24 and into February, if I understand correctly, you were still 25 recovering and going to therapy? 103 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Did you stop by Mr. Wesbecker's house? 3 A. From time to time. 4 Q. And in February, sir, do you recall going into 5 his house on a couple of occasions? 6 A. In February. I don't recall. 7 Q. Let me see if this refreshes your memory at all, 8 sir. Page 166, Line 4. "Question: When you would be going 9 in for that therapy or coming back from that therapy, you 10 would sometimes stop at his house? 11 "Answer: Sometimes. Well, the time schedule 12 would be different the way they scheduled me on the therapy. 13 I might stop one morning at 11:00, I might stop the next day 14 at 3:30, 4:00 in the afternoon. Time varied, you know. 15 "Question: Mr. Lucas, during January of 1989, 16 do you think you ever stopped at Mr. Wesbecker's house on 17 Nottoway? 18 "Answer: No, I don't think so, because that's 19 when I had my operation. I think it was -- I would say 20 probably around about the second week of February. 21 "Question: Of '89? 22 "Answer: Yeah. 23 "Did you call before you stopped by? 24 "No. No. 25 "You just stopped by? 104 1 "Answer: I just on the spur of the moment, like 2 I say, going home I just stopped to check on him. 3 "Did you just go up and ring the doorbell? 4 "Right. 5 "Did he answer the door? 6 "If he was home he would come to the door. 7 "Did he invite you in? 8 "Yeah. Every time. 9 "Okay. In February or mid February, did you go 10 in and stay? 11 "Yeah. He would -- his conversation would jump 12 from one subject to another. His conversation was split. He 13 might be talking about the weather, then come into so-and-so 14 said so-and-so. It was all scrambled up. You couldn't really 15 carry on a conversation with him too much, just jump from 16 subject to subject. 17 "Question: Do you recall any of the subjects 18 that he talked about in that time frame? 19 "Answer: Yeah. He had had it in his mind 20 someone was out to get him. It got to the point where the way 21 he was talking I was scared, you know, just something is wrong 22 here. And just like neighbors, you know, the neighbors was 23 watching him. He had a fixation that people were watching 24 him, you know. He couldn't make a move that nobody would 25 know -- everybody knew what he was doing, you know. That's 105 1 what his conversation usually centered on, everybody was 2 watching him. 3 "Question: Is that when he started drawing the 4 blinds? 5 "Answer: Yeah. When you go in a house that, 6 like I say, the curtains would be drawn and grass would be up 7 -- we're talking about a man that was meticulous, you know, 8 meticulous about his appearance in the way -- the cars he 9 drove, his clothes and everything. Just something wasn't 10 right, you know. And he always -- the conversation always 11 centered around the same thing, about somebody is out to get 12 him. He had this fixation somebody was out to get him." 13 Does that refresh your recollection, sir? 14 A. Yes, it does. 15 Q. What else do you recall that he mentioned on 16 that occasion, sir? Did he talk about Standard Gravure? 17 A. I recall him -- one of the people he thought was 18 after him was Brenda's first husband. 19 Q. Doctor Beasley? 20 A. Yeah. 21 Q. That divorce had been years ago, hadn't it, sir? 22 A. Yeah. 23 MR. SMITH: Objection. Leading. 24 JUDGE POTTER: Sustained. 25 Q. He thought or said to you in February that 106 1 Doctor Beasley was after him? 2 MR. SMITH: Objection. Leading. 3 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Mr. Stopher, it is 4 leading. 5 Q. Let me ask you this way, Mr. Lucas: What did he 6 say about Doctor Beasley? 7 A. Well, he was one of the names mentioned. 8 Q. What other names did he mention? 9 A. During the course of going over there, there was 10 a lot of names, you know. 11 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Lucas, could I ask you to 12 kind of sit up so that you're closer to that microphone and 13 the people will be able to hear you better? 14 A. Yes, sir. During the course of the visits, off 15 and on there was different names that I can't recall who all 16 they were, you know, but I do -- he had it in his mind that 17 the company was out to get him, I know that. 18 Q. What did he tell you about that, sir? 19 A. Well, because of the fight, the legal battle he 20 had with them. And the union, he felt the union didn't give 21 him good representation and he was just disgruntled, you know, 22 about just about everything. 23 Q. Did he talk to you about LTD and what kind of 24 money he was getting? 25 A. The only thing I recall about LTD was something 107 1 about a prescription that -- something to do with Jimmy. They 2 didn't want to -- company didn't -- company insurance didn't 3 want to pay it, and he was talking about he didn't draw enough 4 out of LTD already, you know, in order to -- he said he don't 5 need that, too, you know. 6 Q. Did he say anything else about Standard Gravure 7 or the people that worked there in February of 1989, when you 8 were with him, sir? 9 A. The best of my recollection is that he didn't 10 start elaborating too much on anyone in particular until the 11 time that he visited my house three Saturdays -- three or four 12 Saturdays prior to the shooting at Standard. 13 Q. Let me go back again, sir, to the deposition and 14 see if this refreshes your recollection about the 15 conversations in February of 1989, Page 169, Line 6: "At that 16 meeting in February, did he mention anything about guns or 17 what he was doing to try to deal with whoever it was out to 18 get him? 19 "Answer: None whatsoever. 20 "Question: Did he tell you what he was doing to 21 try to get back at whoever it was that was out to get him? 22 "Answer: I do recall that he off and on -- of 23 course, there was seven different people, but each time it 24 would be different ones. He wouldn't -- maybe he would name 25 one, maybe he would leave out the other six. Maybe he would 108 1 name two or three, leave out the other four. But it was 2 people that were giving him, he said, the runaround at work. 3 "Question: Who was on the list? 4 "Answer: Paula Warman and Don McCall and 5 management, you know, different ones. 6 "Question: Any other names that you remember? 7 "From time to time he would come up with Jim 8 Popham, Sitzler. Like I say, it was always two or three at a 9 time. It never would connect seven at one time. 10 "Question: In that conversation in February of 11 1989, did he say some things to you that didn't make sense? 12 "Answer: Like I say, what got me upset with him 13 was his -- when you would talk to him he would jump from 14 subject to subject, you know, and that kind of upset me, 15 irritated me. And he would be talking about some subjects, 16 you know, he would bring up some subjects you wouldn't know 17 what he was talking about, start naming people and all." 18 Does that refresh your recollection, sir? 19 A. Yes, it does. 20 Q. Is that testimony still accurate? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. In mid February of 1989, sir, was he still 23 talking about the chemicals at Standard Gravure? 24 A. February. I know he had some -- I don't recall 25 whether it was February or not, but I do recall that he had 109 1 some literature that he had sent away and gotten in regards to 2 different chemicals in the printing industry. 3 Q. Let me see if this refreshes your memory, sir, 4 again, Page 170, Line 16: "Did you ever see any papers in his 5 house that day that you were there in mid February of '89? 6 "Answer: Yeah. That's when he had -- the first 7 time I saw the pamphlets on toxic chemicals, different type of 8 mental disorders. There was one magazine, Soldier of Fortune 9 magazine, a survival -- one of those survival magazines, and I 10 guess that was about it." 11 Does that help your memory, sir? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Did he talk to you about the chemicals on that 14 occasion in February of '89, sir? 15 A. He was just talking about the -- asked me if I 16 answered some type of a pamphlet that the international union 17 had sent out, they were doing a survey on the different 18 effects chemicals had on the -- in the printing industry. I 19 told him I didn't recall getting anything. But he was, like I 20 say, on his LTD, he was set to say that the toluene, butane 21 and the chemicals we worked with was the reason for his 22 deterioration, you know. 23 Q. You mentioned to us a moment ago that there was 24 at least one incident where he was not -- a prescription I 25 think you said for Jimmy was not paid and there was some issue 110 1 about that? 2 A. Correct. 3 Q. Did he tell you about other issues that he had 4 with LTD and his benefits? 5 A. I recall him mentioning something about he 6 wanted to take a trip to Florida or something and he wasn't 7 allowed to do it, or in regards because he was on LTD he was 8 restricted to traveling or something like that. 9 Q. Why did he say he was restricted from taking a 10 trip? 11 A. I don't have any idea. 12 Q. Did he tell you that he was dissatisfied with 13 LTD or was satisfied with it? 14 MR. SMITH: Objection. Leading. 15 MR. STOPHER: Or was satisfied with it. 16 JUDGE POTTER: Overruled. 17 A. Outside that he didn't think it paid enough, I 18 don't recall anything that comes to mind whether he was or 19 wasn't. I know he was discontented about the insurance. 20 Q. Let me see if this testimony at all helps your 21 recollection, sir, Page 147, Line 23: "Did he discuss his 22 LTD -- 23 MR. SMITH: Just a second. Let me get to it, 24 Counsel. 25 MR. STOPHER: Yeah. Sure. Ready? 111 1 MR. SMITH: Uh-huh. 2 Q. "Did he discuss LTD with you on that occasion? 3 "Yes. He wasn't satisfied with the way the LTD 4 worked. 5 MR. SMITH: 147, Line 3? 6 MR. STOPHER: I'm sorry. If I said Line 3, I 7 meant Line 23. 8 "Did he discuss his LTD with you on that 9 occasion? 10 "Answer: Yes. He wasn't satisfied with the way 11 LTD worked. It wasn't enough. They give you a lot of hassle 12 over your medication bills and so forth and so on. They 13 watched you when you went on vacation to make sure that if 14 you're on LTD, what point do you have traveling to Florida if 15 you're on LTD, and something about you keep in contact on 16 vacations or something. That was all. 17 "Question: Had he been to Florida recently? 18 "Answer: He didn't say whether he had been out 19 of state or not. 20 "On that occasion when he visited you at home, 21 did he tell you that they made him go back and get another 22 doctor to examine him before the LTD benefits could be -- 23 "Answer: Yeah. He had to go back and make sure 24 that his status hadn't changed. 25 "Question: How did he react to that? 112 1 "Answer: Outside of saying he thought it was a 2 bunch of crap, that's all he had to say." 3 Does that refresh your memory, sir? 4 A. Yes, it does. 5 Q. Did he say those things to you? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Mr. Lucas, in February of '89, how did you 8 observe the way he looked and the way he moved and the way he 9 handled himself? 10 A. In February of '89? 11 Q. Yes, sir. You were still in therapy and you'd 12 stop by his house. 13 A. He would just be sitting alone in his home and, 14 like I say, the greatest percentage of the time when I came by 15 the shades were drawn and just like he was -- he didn't care 16 the way he looked anymore, you know. Just seemed odd to see 17 him with a T-shirt, you know. 18 Q. Mr. Lucas, after that or in that visit in 19 February of '89, did he tell you how much money he was getting 20 on LTD? 21 A. I don't recall. 22 Q. Let me again, sir, refer you to the transcript 23 and see if this helps your memory. This is on Page 185. The 24 questions preceding relate to the February 1989 visit. At 25 Line 13: "Did he talk with you that day about his disability 113 1 or LTD? 2 "Answer: He did elaborate on that. 3 "Question: What do you recall he said about 4 that? 5 "Answer: About they were restricting him from 6 -- if you go out of state, you know, they were watching him. 7 He wasn't making enough money and just minor chitchat. 8 "Question: Did he indicate anything to you 9 about who was watching him? 10 "Answer: No, not at that particular time he 11 didn't. 12 "Question: But he indicated to you that if he 13 went out of state there would be some -- 14 "Answer: They had a way of knowing if he would 15 go out of state, and he couldn't even go out of state or 16 anything because he was afraid it would interfere with his 17 LTD. 18 "Question: Did he tell you how much LTD he was 19 getting? 20 "Answer: The best I can recall, I'd say 21 somewhere in the neighborhood of about $800. 22 "Did he tell you how long that was going to 23 last? 24 "Answer: No. I knew he was talking about that 25 it wasn't -- the only thing I recall was in reference to the 114 1 LTD. It wasn't enough for him to hardly make it is what he 2 said." 3 Do you recall that, sir? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Is that testimony still accurate, sir? 6 A. Pretty accurate. 7 Q. Now, sir, do you recall a visit in February of 8 1989, when he came to your house shortly after Valentine's 9 Day? 10 A. There's one time he came -- I think one time was 11 he had just put tires on his stepdaughter's automobile. 12 Q. Did he ask what your -- I'm sorry, sir. Go 13 ahead. 14 A. It's hard for me to... It's been so long. 15 Q. I understand, sir. Do you recall that visit 16 when he came driving his stepdaughter's automobile shortly 17 after Valentine's Day in February of 1989? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. What do you recall about that, sir? 20 A. Putting tires on the automobile and he had had 21 it -- he was telling -- well, he believed that him and his 22 wife Brenda were on the road of trying to get together again. 23 I'm not sure just exactly what all we discussed. I know he 24 came into the house and Betty gave him a Pepsi and we sat in 25 the kitchen and talked. It's hard to recall all these 115 1 conversations. 2 Q. Well, let me see if this testimony that you gave 3 in your deposition helps your memory, sir. Page 197, Line 22, 4 "Question: What do you recall about that conversation? 5 "Answer: The only thing I recall is he asked me 6 how I was doing, and I didn't even mention the fact that he 7 had just missed Cox. He asked me when I was going back to the 8 hospital and so forth and so on. That was about the extent of 9 the conversation. I recall he elaborated a little bit on 10 wanting to know what I got the wife for Valentine's Day. He 11 wanted to know how much I spent for the card I bought the 12 wife. He was always digging, you know. 13 "Question: Did he talk about LTD? 14 "Answer: Yeah. That's when he first started 15 talking about LTD, about I ought to see about getting it. He 16 said, 'The way your health and everything is that you don't 17 have any business working.' 18 "Question: Did he talk about his own LTD? 19 "Answer: Not at that particular time. I know I 20 said something to the effect, 'You're trying to get me on LTD 21 and you said you wasn't able to make ends meet.' And he came 22 back with, 'Well, your standard of living is not as high as 23 mine.'" 24 Do you recall that, sir? 25 A. Yes. 116 1 Q. Mr. Lucas, do you want to take a break here, 2 sir? 3 A. (Nods head affirmatively). 4 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, could we -- 5 JUDGE POTTER: Why don't we go ahead and take 6 the lunch recess at this time. 7 As I mentioned to you-all before, members of the 8 jury, do not permit anyone to talk with you on any topic 9 connected with this trial; do not discuss it among yourselves 10 and do not form or express opinions about it. We'll stand in 11 recess till 1:45, quarter till two. 12 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 13 MR. SMITH: Terry Tronzo, who is Needy, who is 14 the son-in-law of Ms. Needy, came in late today -- apparently 15 we had already broken -- and got on an elevator. He said, "I 16 looked up, my head had been down, I looked up. I saw somebody 17 that just looked familiar," and said, "I thought it was one of 18 our group," and he said, "When do we go back to court?" And 19 this person said 2:00. Then he looked further up and saw that 20 this person was wearing a juror badge and it was one of the 21 jurors in the case. And he just brought that to my attention 22 and wanted me to know that; I thought I'd let you know. It 23 was some elevator. 24 JUDGE POTTER: And he recognized it as a juror 25 or a juror in this case? 117 1 MR. SMITH: I mean, that's all he said was, 2 "What time do we go back," and at the time he said that he 3 didn't even see the button; he just saw a familiar face. 4 JUDGE POTTER: I'm not so much concerned about 5 that as was it the elevator in this building or the elevator 6 over in the other building? 7 MR. SMITH: He didn't say. He just said the 8 elevator. 9 JUDGE POTTER: I'll mention to the jurors about 10 using the back door and staying out that way. 11 MR. SMITH: It might have been in some other 12 elevator in maybe the other courthouse, but I wouldn't think 13 so. 14 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 15 SHERIFF CECIL: The jury is now entering. All 16 jurors are present. Court is back in session. 17 JUDGE POTTER: Please be seated. Mr. Lucas, 18 I'll remind you you're still under oath, sir. 19 Mr. Stopher. 20 Mr. Lucas, I know it may be hard for you, but 21 the better you can keep your voice up, the better it is. 22 Q. Mr. Lucas, I apologize to you. When we left -- 23 if you feel, sir, that you want to take a break and stop, 24 would you let me know, sir? I did not notice; I was reading. 25 And I apologize to you in connection with that. 118 1 Now, sir, we were talking about a time around 2 Valentine's Day that Joe Wesbecker came to your house in 1989, 3 sometime in late February of 1989. Do you recall, sir, that 4 that's what the general topic of conversation was at the time 5 that we broke for lunch? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Mr. Lucas, what did you observe about 8 Mr. Wesbecker and his behavior on that occasion? 9 A. I didn't see any -- too much of a change from 10 what it had been previous at that time. I believe at that 11 time he was talking about a death in his wife's family or 12 father-in-law. 13 Q. No, sir. His father-in-law died on July 14, 14 1989. I'm still back in February, sir. 15 A. Okay. Okay. 16 Q. Let me read to you some sections out of the 17 deposition and see if this refreshes your memory at all about 18 that occasion. Page 200, Line 4, sir. 19 "Question: On that occasion, was he able to sit 20 down and sit still? 21 "Answer: No. No, he wasn't. 22 "Question: How did he behave on that occasion? 23 "Answer: When he first came in, he sat at the 24 kitchen table maybe a couple of minutes. Then he got up and 25 he leaned against the cabinet where the microwave was at and 119 1 he went to the front door that goes from the living room -- or 2 kitchen into the living room and would say a couple of words 3 or so with Betty. Then he would come back into the kitchen, 4 you know, and sit down. He was moody and nervous, you know, I 5 could tell he was. 6 "Question: Was he able to concentrate better on 7 that occasion than the time you had visited him at his home? 8 "Answer: No. No. 9 "Question: He would jump from topic to topic 10 again?" 11 MR. SMITH: Objection. Leading. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Wait just a second. Let me see 13 you-all up here a second. 14 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 15 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher, is there any way -- 16 because what's happening is he's saying "I don't know" and 17 then you're reading six pages of testimony. Is there any way 18 you can kind of get to -- well, then I guess you run into that 19 you're not reading the whole thing. 20 MR. STOPHER: Right. It's a difficult 21 situation, Judge, and I'm trying to get through it as quickly 22 as I can. The fact of the matter is he's very emotional and 23 his memory is not as good now as it was at the time he gave 24 his deposition. And I'm trying to get him there as quickly as 25 I know how. I don't know what else to do. 120 1 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith, I don't know if you 2 can object to a leading question in a deposition when he's 3 reading from a deposition. 4 MR. SMITH: We had reserved all our objections 5 until the time of trial. 6 JUDGE POTTER: That's an objection as to form. 7 MR. SMITH: I mean, how can I preserve the 8 record then? I mean, if that were the case you could put any 9 witness on and they say they can't remember and they can get 10 all kinds of things in through the deposition. I've got to 11 make my record. It's obviously a leading question. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Right. But it was made during 13 the deposition and an objection was not made during the 14 deposition. I'm going to overrule the objection. 15 I guess what I'm saying, Mr. Stopher, I do think 16 in some respects when you read to him you've got to make it 17 either contradictory or either to refresh him on. You have 18 been reading a lot of what he's already testified to. 19 MR. STOPHER: If I'm being repetitive I will 20 stop, but I think you can see the difficulty I have with the 21 gentleman. He's very upset. 22 JUDGE POTTER: Well, I don't know what the 23 problem is. 24 MR. STOPHER: Okay. 25 MR. SMITH: Judge, what do I do? 121 1 JUDGE POTTER: I don't know what you do, Mr. 2 Smith. I'm overruling the objection. It's in the deposition. 3 MR. SMITH: I don't want to make you mad at me 4 for continuing to object. 5 JUDGE POTTER: I don't think you can object to 6 him -- a leading question in a deposition unless it was 7 objected to during the deposition. 8 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 9 Q. Mr. Lucas, I'll start again. 10 "Question: He would jump from topic to topic 11 again? 12 "Answer: Topic to topic. Sometimes you would 13 be talking to him he would look straight ahead, wouldn't even 14 answer you from time to time. 15 "Question: When he would look straight ahead -- 16 when he would look straight ahead and wouldn't even look at 17 you -- 18 "Answer:" -- 19 MR. SMITH: Again, Your Honor, we're going to 20 object to this as being beyond what the Witness was originally 21 asked concerning his mood at the time. 22 JUDGE POTTER: I'm going to sustain the 23 objection. Mr. Stopher, if you want to let him read some of 24 that to refresh his memory, that's one thing, and then let him 25 testify because the jury wants to hear his testimony today. 122 1 Q. All right. Let me give you this, Mr. Lucas. 2 There's just about one more page here that I'd like for you to 3 read, sir. 4 MR. SMITH: Again, Your Honor, we object to 5 that. He can propound questions to him; if he says "I don't 6 remember the answer to that particular question -- 7 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith, he has done that. He 8 wants him to read part of the deposition and then he's going 9 to ask him some questions. 10 Q. Take a look at the line beginning at the bottom 11 of Page 200 and then there's a question there, and then if you 12 would just look down this list on Page 201, sir, and see if 13 that helps your memory. 14 A. (Reviews document) That's pretty much what I 15 remember. 16 Q. All right. Would you tell us, then, sir, after 17 having read that, what you remember about him at that time in 18 February at your home? 19 A. Well, his mood changes again and break of 20 conversations. He couldn't sit still. Normally when he'd 21 come in he would sit at a table and talk, but this time he 22 wouldn't even sit, you know, he'd just walk around. 23 Q. Could you keep the conversation going with him, 24 sir? 25 A. No. 123 1 Q. Why not? 2 A. He'd walk from the living room to talk to Betty 3 and then back in to me again. 4 Q. Had you seen him like that before that time in 5 February, sir? 6 A. Yes, a couple of times. 7 Q. Where he would not be able to sit still? 8 A. Well, not as much as what I'm saying about his 9 break of conversation, going from one subject to another, but 10 I don't recall him not being able to sit still back in his 11 earlier dates that I visited him. 12 Q. On that occasion at your house in February, 13 Mr. Lucas, did he talk about Standard Gravure and any of the 14 people there again? 15 A. It's hard for me to remember -- 16 Q. Let me ask you if you'd take a look, sir -- 17 A. -- specific dates, you know. 18 Q. I understand, sir. Let me see if I can refer 19 you to the very next page, Page 202. 20 MR. SMITH: Again, we'd lodge the same 21 objection. 22 JUDGE POTTER: Objection is overruled. He's 23 showing him the document to refresh his memory. 24 Q. Take a look, sir, at Page 202, beginning at Line 25 14, the question and then the answer behind that. 124 1 MR. SMITH: Your Honor, that question and answer 2 has already been read to the jury. 3 JUDGE POTTER: He's showing him something, Mr. 4 Smith, to refresh his memory and then he's going to ask him a 5 question. 6 A. (Reviews document) Okay. 7 Q. Did he mention Standard Gravure or any of the 8 people at the time of that meeting, sir? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. What do you recall about it now? 11 A. The only names I recall at that time was Paula 12 Warman and Donald Cox. 13 Q. Do you recall anything that he said about them 14 in February of 1989? 15 A. I'd have to say not really. 16 Q. Mr. Lucas, after that time in February of 1989, 17 did you get a phone call from him sometime after that? 18 A. February. I recall him calling me and telling 19 me that he had seen one of the old employees at the grocery 20 around that time. 21 Q. Do you know -- do you recall a phone call, sir, 22 in which he talked with you and you were at home, I suppose? 23 A. Well, I've had quite a few phone calls, 24 conversations with him. 25 Q. Well, sir, let me ask you to take a look at Page 125 1 205. Let me turn over to it, sir. Start there and read on 2 down, sir. 3 A. (Reviews document). 4 Q. Does that bring something back to you, sir? 5 A. Yeah. Just like I said, the only thing I recall 6 is talking about seeing a fellow by the name of Louie Caudill 7 in the grocery during February. 8 Q. Did he have some trouble talking with you on 9 that telephone call, sir? 10 A. I don't -- the only trouble I recall is me 11 trying to cut him off because I didn't feel like talking. 12 Q. On that occasion and on some others you'd try to 13 cut him off? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Why was that, sir? 16 A. I was going through my own problems of being 17 burned in the fire and... 18 Q. Did you try to cut him off because you felt 19 uncomfortable talking to him? 20 MR. SMITH: Objection. Leading. 21 JUDGE POTTER: Overruled. 22 A. From time to time. Not all the time. 23 Q. But on some occasions, sir? 24 A. Yeah. Sometimes. 25 Q. Mr. Lucas, let me ask you about a meeting in 126 1 July at your home, July of 1989, sir. Do you recall such a 2 meeting? 3 A. Yeah. 4 Q. And I'm referring to the time shortly after his 5 father-in-law's death and funeral. Do you remember that, sir? 6 A. I recall that when the father-in-law had passed 7 away he came to my house and said he had rented a room for his 8 brother-in-law or ex-brother-in-law, Brenda's brother, and he 9 was kidding me about maybe you and the wife, we could go over 10 there and have a party. He said he had a room all rented and 11 everything. 12 Q. Do you remember a time in July of 1989 when he 13 came to your house and talked about suicide? 14 A. He's talked of suicide, but he talked of suicide 15 twice. 16 Q. Let me ask you to take a look, if you would, 17 please, sir, at Page 219. It's just a couple of short 18 questions and answers there, Page 219, sir, beginning at 19 Line 5. 20 A. (Reviews document). 21 Q. Can you read on down there, sir, through that 22 page and over here. Take your time, sir. 23 A. (Reviews document) Okay. 24 Q. Does that bring that back to your mind, sir? 25 A. Yeah. 127 1 Q. What do you recall about that occasion, sir? 2 A. Well, as I stated earlier, that he was very much 3 discontented the way Jimmy was going and that was his only 4 good thing that he managed to salvage out of a terrible 5 situation and that turned sour, too, so... 6 Q. Did he say that he saw a way out or what did he 7 have to say about that? 8 A. Outside of just telling me he thought he'd go 9 ahead and commit suicide. I confronted Jimmy with it to find 10 out whether he was, you know, serious, if he had tried it, 11 attempted it before. 12 Q. Did he mention on that occasion, sir, shooting 13 each other? 14 A. Yeah. He wanted me to -- like I say, he seemed 15 to lack the nerve. He wanted me to kill him and him shoot me 16 in turn, double suicide. 17 Q. How was his condition on that date, sir, 18 generally? 19 A. Pretty glum, low. 20 Q. Was he able to sit still? 21 A. The best I can recall he was the same way. 22 Q. Up and moving around? 23 A. Moving around. 24 Q. Was he able to stay on the topic? 25 A. He still had the problem of going from 128 1 conversation to broken conversations. 2 Q. Had you ever seen him that bad before, sir? 3 A. I couldn't tell any difference from the last 4 time. 5 Q. Mr. Lucas, did he talk about Standard Gravure on 6 that time in July when it was mentioned about the double 7 suicide? 8 A. He talked about Standard Gravure just about 9 every other time I saw him. 10 Q. Including that time, sir? 11 A. Yeah, probably. I'm not sure, but probably. 12 Q. It may be repetitive and I don't mean for it to 13 be, but what kinds of things was he saying about Standard 14 Gravure in July of '89? 15 A. He still had the fixation that they were out to 16 get him, and he was going to go in there and kill some people. 17 Q. Mr. Lucas, when was the next time that you saw 18 Joe Wesbecker? 19 A. I'd say that was in July. Probably about two 20 weeks later maybe, somewhere. 21 Q. What do you recall about that, sir? 22 A. Basically the same thing. 23 Q. He came to your house? 24 A. I don't recall if he came to my house or I went 25 to his. 129 1 Q. Just the two of you, sir? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Did he get any more specific on that occasion 4 with regard to Standard Gravure? 5 A. I think at that time that was when he compiled 6 his list. 7 Q. What sort of a list was that, sir? 8 A. A list of seven people that he was going to get 9 at Standard Gravure. 10 Q. What did he say about how he was going to get 11 them? 12 A. Well, at first, he was -- I don't know. I might 13 be a little early on that. He first was talking about three 14 of them; specifically, that was Donald Cox, Don McCall and 15 Michael Shea, getting a contract out on them. He approached 16 somebody from the motorcycle gang, the Outlaws -- the 17 Louisville Outlaws that he was going to contract the killings. 18 Q. What did you say about that, sir, to him? 19 A. I said something to the effect that, you know, 20 "When you deal with people such as like this, that if you go 21 down there, they'll probably end up killing you and taking the 22 money and throwing you in the river." 23 Q. What did he say to that, sir? 24 A. Basically he said, "You're probably right." 25 Q. What else was said? 130 1 A. I don't recall. I don't recall right offhand. 2 In all honesty, I can't recall. 3 Q. Did you see him after that, sir? 4 A. I saw him about three or four Saturdays in a 5 row. He'd come over on Saturday morning and ask me if I made 6 up my mind about returning to work, and I told him that, yeah, 7 I decided I was going to try to get back into the work force. 8 Q. What did he say to that, sir? 9 A. He just told me that he wished I wouldn't, just 10 go ahead and apply for LTD. He asked me what shift I was 11 going to go back on and so forth and so on; I told him I 12 didn't know. Just general conversation. I can't recall 13 exactly the topic -- all the topics we talked about. 14 Q. Did he talk about anything on that occasion with 15 regard to Standard Gravure? 16 A. I don't know whether that that was the time that 17 he told me about blowing the place up. 18 Q. What did he tell you, sir? 19 A. He said he was going to -- well, he said he was 20 seriously thinking about purchasing a model airplane with a 21 four-foot wing span, putting explosives on it. And he also 22 had talked to the motorcycle gang again and they were supposed 23 to supply the explosives, and he was going to put that on that 24 model plane and with a remote control and direct it into the 25 recovery tank on top of the building, The Courier-Journal 131 1 building, and blow the whole place off the face of the earth. 2 Q. What did you say to that, Mr. Lucas? 3 A. I told him that he shouldn't even be considering 4 such things as that because you're involving killing a bunch 5 of people that had done you no wrong. And I said, "You're 6 just pissed off at just a handful of people and you're talking 7 about wiping out a whole bunch of people." 8 Q. What did he say to that? 9 A. Well, he said, "Maybe you're right." 10 Q. What else did he say? 11 A. He kept referring to different plans, Plan A and 12 Plan B, you know, just rambling. 13 Q. What else did he say? 14 A. He kept referring to AK-AK later on, and I think 15 there was a time span of maybe two or three days before he 16 came back with that conversation when he came back with the 17 idea of something about AK-AK. And I was thinking he was 18 talking about anti-aircraft gun and he was talking about his 19 AK-47 is what he was talking about. 20 Q. After that conversation, Mr. Lucas, and before 21 the shootings, did you go back to work at Standard Gravure? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. When you went back to work, sir, did you tell 24 any of this to the people at Standard Gravure? 25 A. Yes. 132 1 Q. Who did you tell? 2 A. Well, prior to going back to work, I was seeing 3 a psychoanalyst trying to work me back into the work force to 4 overcome my fear of the explosion. I talked to him on a 5 Monday morning about it and he told me, he says he couldn't do 6 anything, but he said, "There's no reason why you can't when 7 you go to work talk to somebody at work and let them know what 8 he told you." And when I first got to work, the first thing I 9 done was told Foreman Bill McKeown. He in turn was sitting in 10 the office with Donald Cox there talking. Donald overheard it 11 when I told them and they just shrugged it off and said, 12 "Well, there's not much credence to that story, you know, he's 13 shot off hot air before;" he's not going to worry about it. 14 Q. Did they tell you they didn't believe you? 15 A. They didn't say whether they did or didn't. 16 Q. Did you tell them that it was a joke or did you 17 tell them that it was -- 18 A. I told them, I said, "You-all have known this 19 boy for 19 years and I've known him for 29, and when he says 20 he's going to do something, I said, you can count on it." I 21 said, "You can put it in the bank. He's coming." 22 Q. When you told them that, what did they say? 23 A. I didn't get no reaction. 24 Q. Mr. Lucas, who else did you tell at Standard 25 Gravure? 133 1 A. I told the president of the union, Al Kinberger. 2 Well, basically, I told everybody that I work with that I saw. 3 Q. Al Kinberger was the president of the union? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Did you tell him this same story? 6 A. Yes. I've told everybody that I worked with the 7 same story. 8 Q. Did you tell any other foremen? 9 A. Two days later, there was another foreman that I 10 was stopping to talk to, his name was Kay Back, and I asked -- 11 was asking him, I said, "Did anybody in the office tell you 12 about the threat that Joe made?" He didn't know what I was 13 talking about, so I knew then that the story hadn't gone too 14 far. 15 Q. Did you tell him? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Did you ever go upstairs to the management 18 offices and talk with those people up there? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Up to the third floor? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Who did you talk to up there, sir? 23 A. I talked to Don McCall. 24 Q. He was the executive vice-president? 25 A. Yes. 134 1 Q. What did you tell Mr. McCall? 2 A. I told him the same story that I told everybody 3 else. 4 Q. That he was coming? 5 A. Right. 6 Q. Did you tell the manager of security, 7 Mr. Throneberry? 8 A. I don't recall telling Grady. 9 Q. When you told Mr. McCall, what did he say, sir? 10 A. He just said that that's the reason that the 11 company had security. 12 Q. Did he say anything else? 13 A. No. But I did ask him if he would pass it on to 14 Michael Shea. 15 Q. Mr. Lucas, after you told all of these people, 16 did anything change at Standard Gravure before the shootings 17 occurred? 18 A. No. The only thing that changed was me. I hid 19 in dark corners so nobody could see me. 20 Q. You did what, sir? 21 A. I hid back in dark corners. 22 Q. Why was that? 23 A. Because I knew he was coming and I didn't want 24 to be out where I could be seen. 25 Q. Mr. Lucas, did anybody ever discuss with you 135 1 calling his psychiatrist or calling the police? 2 A. The only reference to the psychiatrist made was 3 my psychoanalyst said, "Is he seeing a psychiatrist," and I 4 says yes. And he said, well, said, "If you could see what's 5 going on, surely he could see." But I didn't know who the 6 psychiatrist was. There was no names mentioned. 7 Q. Did anyone at Standard Gravure mention to you 8 who his psychiatrist was or contacting the psychiatrist? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Any discussion about the police? 11 A. The only discussion I had was that I discussed 12 with a couple of the guys at work about calling the police. 13 Then one of them said that, "If you call the police and they 14 go over there and don't find anything, then all you're going 15 to do is get him pissed off at you." 16 Q. Mr. Lucas, were you there on the morning of 17 September 14 at the time he came back into the plant? 18 A. No. 19 Q. You weren't at work that morning? 20 A. No. 21 Q. That's all I have, Your Honor. 22 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith, Ms. Zettler, whoever, 23 whichever. 24 25 136 1 EXAMINATION ___________ 2 3 BY_MR._SMITH: __ ___ ______ 4 Q. Mr. Lucas, I'm Paul Smith, and I represent the 5 Plaintiffs in this case. Okay? You and I have never talked, 6 have we? 7 A. I don't recall ever seeing you. 8 Q. I'll try to be brief, but I need to go over some 9 things in some detail, Mr. Lucas. If you have some problems, 10 would you please let us know? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. You've known Joe for a long time and, as I 13 understand it, after the problems with the folder developed, 14 after the EEOC complaint and after seeing his doctor, Joe 15 finally got a letter from -- his letter from his doctor that 16 would entitle him to get long-term disability benefits; is 17 that correct? 18 A. Right. 19 Q. And is that something that he expressed to you 20 that he wanted, was to get on long-term disability? 21 A. He said if that's what it took to get off the 22 folder. 23 Q. And did he seem happy that he had gotten his 24 long-term disability and off the folder? 25 A. I couldn't tell any difference in his -- whether 137 1 he was happy or not, you know. He was just acting like he was 2 relieved. 3 Q. He was relieved to be off the folder and on 4 long-term disability? 5 A. Correct. Correct. 6 Q. Because he had been trying to be on long-term 7 disability to get taken off the folder for quite some time; 8 correct, sir? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. I need to go back and talk with you about some 11 of these particular incidents that had occurred before Joe 12 left Standard Gravure and see if this is correct. I went 13 through your deposition and made some notes, and I've got some 14 page references here that we can help with, but in order for 15 brevity -- and as I understand it, you've had some problems in 16 relaying specific dates; is that right? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. The incident with the gun in the sack down in 19 the reel room, as I understand it, that was either just before 20 or just after Joe had been released from Our Lady of Peace; is 21 that right? 22 A. I didn't know anything about being released from 23 Our Lady of Peace. 24 Q. When he was off -- when he was working in '86 or 25 '87, weren't you aware that he had been at Our Lady of Peace 138 1 in '86? 2 A. Well, I wasn't aware that he was there at the 3 time of the gun incident. 4 Q. No. I mean, this was after he had been released 5 from Our Lady of Peace that the gun incident occurred; is that 6 right? 7 A. No, sir. I wasn't aware he was at Our Lady of 8 Peace before the gun incident. 9 Q. I'm not talking about for the gun incident, but 10 were you aware he was in Our Lady of Peace at all? 11 A. Yeah. 12 Q. Now, can you place the gun incident either 13 before or after Mr. Wesbecker was in Our Lady of Peace? 14 A. As I knew the time of him being in Our Lady of 15 Peace, I'd say it was before. 16 Q. All right. To help you out, Mr. Lucas, let me 17 show you Page 92 here. You were asked, "At any time after 18 that" -- 19 MR. STOPHER: I'm sorry. Where are we, Paul? 20 MR. SMITH: Line 5. 21 "Question: Okay. At any time after that, was 22 there ever any time that he indicated to you that he was going 23 to get anybody?" 24 Your answer at that time was: "At one time Joe 25 went to Our Lady of Peace, and he had done it in a way that 139 1 nobody would know or he thought that nobody would find out, 2 and that was on his vacation time. And shortly after that, I 3 had an incident one time that he had a small brown sack, you 4 know, and he came up to me, and I thought it was his lunch and 5 it was a pistol. And I called the office, told Jim Popham Joe 6 had a pistol and he should either notify security or make sure 7 he took a wide path with him. Carrying firearms in Standard 8 wasn't the first one we'd ever seen, so..." 9 Do you see that, sir? 10 A. Right. 11 Q. So you say there that it was after he had been 12 released from Our Lady of Peace; right? 13 A. Right. But, like I say, I wasn't aware of him 14 being in Our Lady of Peace because he had done it on his 15 vacation time until, you know, after this came up. 16 Q. But it was shortly after that that you had the 17 incident? 18 A. It was shortly after that; correct. 19 Q. So that would have been after, I believe, April 20 of 1986; does that sound right to you, sir? 21 A. Okay. 22 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, the date was in April 23 of 1987. 24 JUDGE POTTER: He can ask the question. 25 Q. Did I say '96? April '87. 140 1 A. It was the latter part of '86 or early '87, in 2 there. 3 Q. All right. And at that time after this incident 4 Joe walked off, as I understand it? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And he had the gun still in the brown bag? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And that gun was never discharged there that 9 day, was it? 10 A. No. 11 Q. You never saw that gun again, did you? 12 A. No. 13 Q. And as far as you know, Joe Wesbecker didn't in 14 fact confront Mr. Popham or Mr. Cox with that gun? 15 A. No. 16 Q. As far as you know, he didn't confront them at 17 all in a threatening manner on that occasion? 18 A. None that I'm aware of. 19 Q. You couldn't get Mr. Popham to be concerned 20 about this, either, could you, sir? 21 A. No. 22 Q. In fact, Mr. Popham told you, "Well, if it 23 happens, it happens." 24 A. That's exactly what he said. 25 Q. Then it didn't happen; right? 141 1 A. No. It didn't happen. 2 Q. And you never saw the gun again? 3 A. Not after that one time. 4 Q. Now, at the time the -- that Joe made the 5 comment when you were in the hospital after the fire about 6 it's a shame the whole place didn't blow up -- 7 A. That wasn't exactly how he said it, but that's 8 pretty close. 9 Q. Well, maybe you can think back and give us -- 10 A. He used some profanity. 11 Q. Maybe he said "damn place" didn't blow up? 12 A. A little stronger than that. 13 Q. All right. Now, the fire was an accident, 14 wasn't it? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And there wasn't any question that Joe Wesbecker 17 didn't start that fire? 18 A. Oh, Joe was nowhere around. 19 Q. All right. So there wasn't ever any suspicion 20 that Joe Wesbecker started the fire that caused your injuries 21 in November of 1988? 22 A. Not to me, it wasn't. 23 Q. He was just at that time expressing his 24 displeasure with the situation at Standard Gravure? 25 A. Right. 142 1 Q. He wasn't making a threat to blow the place up 2 in November of '88, was he? 3 A. No. I wouldn't say so. 4 Q. All right. And you didn't take it as such 5 because you didn't report that to anybody? 6 A. Not at that time, no. 7 Q. Would it be accurate to say, Mr. Lucas, that the 8 only time you seriously considered the threats that Joseph 9 Wesbecker made was when you actually reported them to your 10 supervisors? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Okay. So we've got the situation, then, where 13 you reported the incident when Joe had the gun in '86 or '87 14 in the brown paper sack. 15 A. Right. 16 Q. You reported that incident? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And then you reported this last incident about 19 the model airplane? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And those are the only two times that you felt 22 that Joseph Wesbecker presented a threat to anybody at the 23 Standard Gravure? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Because that's the only two times you ever 143 1 reported that threat; right? 2 A. Right. 3 Q. Now, in February of 1989, when Mr. Wesbecker 4 came to your house around Valentine's Day, do you recall that? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. He didn't make any threats to do any violence to 7 anybody at that time, either, did he, sir? 8 A. I don't think so. 9 Q. He had maybe some people that he was mentioning 10 that he had grievances with at the Standard Gravure, correct, 11 in February? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. But he never threatened them at that time in 14 your presence, did he, sir? 15 A. Well, there's -- there's times off and on when 16 he did make threats, you know. 17 Q. Okay. But I'm talking about February '89. 18 A. I don't think so. 19 Q. And right now, as far as I've got it in a time 20 line sequence, he made a threat to do violence to somebody in 21 '86 or '87 and you reported that? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And the incidents in February of 1988 and the 24 fire, he didn't make any threats at that time? 25 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, I object. The fire 144 1 was in November of '88 and the incident was in February of '89 2 that we're talking about and it's confusing. 3 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith, does that help you 4 with the dates? 5 Q. The fire was in November of '88, wasn't it? 6 A. Correct. 7 Q. And there wasn't any threats issued by 8 Mr. Wesbecker at that time, was there? 9 A. Outside of talking about it's a shame that the 10 building didn't burn up, you know. 11 Q. But, again, you've talked about it was a shame 12 that the building didn't burn up; right? 13 A. Right. 14 Q. He wasn't talking about anybody getting killed, 15 was he? 16 A. He considered that as general conversation, I 17 guess. 18 Q. All right. And you didn't consider that he was 19 threatening anybody then in November of '88, did you? 20 A. I don't think that I -- at that particular time, 21 I didn't -- with what I had going on, I didn't form any 22 opinion, you know. 23 Q. You didn't think about it one way or the other? 24 A. Correct. 25 Q. It was more just conversation, in fact, wasn't 145 1 it, Mr. Lucas? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Now, in February of '89, you were still off 4 work; is that right? 5 A. Correct. 6 Q. From the fire that happened in November of '88? 7 A. Correct. 8 Q. And Mr. Wesbecker came and visited at your home? 9 A. Right. 10 Q. And I believe you said you visited him maybe in 11 February; is that right? 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. And there were no threats of any physical 14 violence made against anybody at Standard Gravure at that 15 time, either, was there? 16 A. I'd have to say in all honesty I don't recall 17 any threats. 18 Q. All right. When you had the discussions about 19 long-term disability in February of '89, Joe was asking you or 20 urging you to go ahead and make application for long-term 21 disability, wasn't he? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. He felt like your physical condition was such 24 that it would probably prevent you from working? 25 A. Yes. 146 1 Q. And we had some discussions read about the 2 reduction in payments, but in February he didn't say anything 3 about his payments being reduced, did he? 4 A. There was -- the only thing I can recall is he's 5 talking about going back to the doctor to renew the extension 6 on the LTD or something like that. 7 Q. Right. And when you gave your deposition, on 8 Page 186, I believe Mr. Stopher read the lines above it, but 9 let's go ahead and read the Line 15 through to -- 10 A. Okay. 11 Q. You were asked, "Question: Did he tell you when 12 it was going to be reduced in amount?" 13 The answer was: "No. He did say something 14 about he would have to be reevaluated, but he didn't say when 15 or what time or anything." Correct? 16 A. (Nods head affirmatively). 17 Q. He just at that time was expressing the 18 situation that his long-term disability, at least according to 19 him, would be reevaluated in the future; correct? 20 A. Correct. 21 Q. But was recommending that you do the same thing 22 he did? 23 A. Correct. 24 Q. Getting long-term disability; is that right? 25 A. Correct. 147 1 Q. Now, when you were at Mr. Wesbecker's house in 2 February of '89, Mr. Stopher read some questions and answers 3 about magazines. He said, "Question: Did you ever see any 4 papers in his house that day that you" -- 5 MR. STOPHER: Where are we? 6 MR. SMITH: 170, Page 16. 7 MR. STOPHER: 117? 8 Q. "Did you ever see any papers in his house that 9 day that you were there in mid February of '89?" 10 The answer was: "Yeah, that's when he had -- 11 the first time I saw the pamphlets on toxic chemicals, 12 different types of mental disorders. There was one magazine, 13 Soldier of Fortune magazine, a survival -- one of those 14 survival magazines, and I guess that was about it." 15 Do you remember Mr. Stopher reading that to you? 16 A. Yes, I do. 17 Q. The next question was: "Did you ever see a 18 Newsweek or a Time magazine?" Your answer then was no; 19 correct, sir? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And is that still correct that you don't 22 recall -- 23 A. I don't recall seeing any of those magazines. 24 Q. There was a book there that you saw that Mr. 25 Wesbecker had about mental disorders? 148 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Do you recall what that was, sir? 3 A. They were -- it was pretty much in reference to 4 how you would react if you were suffering from certain 5 conditions. 6 Q. All right. It described certain mental -- 7 A. Yes. He had sent off to someplace to get the 8 pamphlets in regards to what reactions you would have if you 9 were under the influence of certain chemicals. 10 Q. Okay. Like the toluene and things of that 11 nature? 12 A. Right. And how they could be treated and such. 13 Q. Okay. But it wasn't books on like manic 14 depression or bipolar disorder or schizoaffective disorder; it 15 was on potential mental problems that these chemicals could 16 cause. Is that right, sir? 17 A. The best I can recall, yes. 18 Q. All right. In February of '89, Mr. Wesbecker 19 didn't mention anything about guns, did he? 20 A. February. No. 21 Q. And didn't mention about doing anything to 22 anybody with guns at that time? 23 A. No. 24 Q. There was no mention of violence or anything of 25 that nature in that meeting, was there, sir? 149 1 A. None that I can recall. 2 Q. Now, could it be that you're a little bit 3 confused, Mr. Lucas, in connection with the first time that 4 this incident occurred or there was statements made about this 5 actual threat of harm to people at Standard Gravure with the 6 model airplane? 7 A. There's always a possibility when you get 60 8 years old and your mind starts to fade. 9 Q. There's possibilities when you're 49 your mind 10 starts to fade, too. 11 After this incident occurred, you recorded or 12 had your wife record specifics concerning what actually 13 happened and when it happened, didn't you, Mr. Lucas? 14 A. Well, at the time I was under medication and she 15 says I dictated some thoughts to her. 16 Q. All right. And you sent that six-page letter in 17 September after this occurred, did you not? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. It says, "I, James Lucas, have wrestled with my 20 feelings for 12 days over the tragedy that happened at 21 Standard Gravure, my place of employment. This has to be told 22 in behalf of Joe Wesbecker, a friend whom I've known for 29 23 years. This man was rejected by society and stripped of all 24 dignity of which he had known. Also in behalf of my brother 25 members and friends who are R. Barger, L. White, J. Wible, 150 1 W. Ganote, K. Fentress, and the ones I was only acquainted 2 with who has gone on and left loved ones behind. I feel that 3 this story had to be told so that the survivors and victims 4 could understand why this happened and that Joe was pushed 5 beyond human endurance. When I say victims, I also mean Joe's 6 family, too. Hope you can all understand." Do you recall 7 this letter, sir? 8 A. Parts of it. 9 Q. "In regards to the Wesbecker incident, I was 10 confused about the exact dates, but after having time to 11 consider, I am now stating that this is the exact facts as I 12 can recall them. On the 19th day of August, Joe Wesbecker 13 came to my home to see how I was getting along and to find out 14 who (sic) the results were from Doctor Kleinert. We had 15 talked two weeks prior when I run into him uptown. I told him 16 that I was due to go back to Doctor Kleinert on October 5th, 17 but as far as it looks now, my doctor who is treating me for 18 the fire in regards to my fear of returning to work, who is 19 Doctor Gabbert, have decided it would be best if I return to 20 work and try to combat my problems. Joe told me he had 21 somewhere to go and would see me later, leaving me with a 22 manila envelope to read and study just in case I changed my 23 mind about applying for LTD. 24 "He called me on the 26th" -- that would be the 25 26th of August, wouldn't it, sir? 151 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And I asked -- "and asked if I'd be home. I 3 told him yes, as far as I know. He came over around noon" -- 4 would that have been on the 26th, sir? 5 A. I suppose. 6 Q. -- "and asked me if I was still considering 7 going back to work. I told him yes. He said, 'I wish you 8 wouldn't. You might get -- get hurt'." 9 It says here really, "I told him yes. He 10 said -- Joe said -- 'I wish you wouldn't. You might get hurt. 11 I've got a plan that will result in eliminating that F-blank 12 place, meaning Standard Gravure, that would put an end to 13 everybody's worry'." Correct, sir? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Now, in fact, August 26th is when Mr. Wesbecker 16 first told you that, wasn't it? 17 A. If it's stated so there, yes. 18 Q. See, it says he called me on the 26th and asked 19 if I'd be home; right? 20 A. Uh-huh. 21 Q. So we've got it pinned down to it was the 26th 22 that he first told you that he had a plan; is that right, Mr. 23 Lucas? 24 A. Yes. That's what it says. 25 Q. You knew Mr. Wesbecker was taking Prozac at that 152 1 time, didn't you? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Because you were taking Prozac at that time? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And you and he had discussed Prozac? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And Mr. Wesbecker had told you it was good shit, 8 didn't he? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. In fact -- 11 MR. STOPHER: Objection, Your Honor. 12 Q. -- it was in that conversation -- 13 JUDGE POTTER: What's your objection, Mr. 14 Stopher? 15 MR. STOPHER: May we approach the bench? 16 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 17 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, maybe I'm anticipating 18 something he's not going to ask and, if so, I apologize, but I 19 don't want to get into any discussions about Mr. Lucas and his 20 medical situation or psychiatric situation, and if that's 21 where we're going I would object and think that the damage 22 that would be caused by that is irreparable. 23 JUDGE POTTER: What is his situation? 24 MR. SMITH: They were both taking Prozac at the 25 same time that there was this discussion of a mutual suicide. 153 1 JUDGE POTTER: What is the objection? 2 MR. STOPHER: The objection is I don't want to 3 get into Mr. Lucas's situation about suicide or Prozac. In 4 July, Mr. Wesbecker was not taking Prozac. 5 JUDGE POTTER: All right. I think he can 6 introduce evidence that this guy was taking Prozac because it 7 ties down what they talked about in the time frame they were 8 talking in. And if he says he was discussing suicide, then, 9 you know, you can cross-examine him. 10 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, the point is that in 11 July when Mr. Wesbecker suggested the suicide pact, 12 Mr. Wesbecker was not taking Prozac. 13 MR. SMITH: That's a misimpression that the 14 deposition leaves because that's what I want to straighten out 15 right now. 16 MR. STOPHER: He didn't say anything in that 17 document or in the deposition that that conversation was at 18 any time other than July. 19 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith, I'm going to sustain 20 Mr. Stopher's objection to the extent that I don't think you 21 can develop that this guy was thinking about suicide, but if 22 they were talking about it together, the objection is 23 overruled. 24 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 25 Q. In fact, Mr. Lucas, when you and Mr. Wesbecker 154 1 had this discussion about a mutual suicide, you were each 2 taking Prozac at the time? 3 MR. STOPHER: Objection, Your Honor. 4 JUDGE POTTER: Overruled. 5 A. Correct. 6 Q. Let me continue with the letter. We're back to 7 the 26th; right? 8 A. Yes. 9 MS. ZETTLER: Excuse me, Paul. I don't think 10 everybody can hear you. 11 Q. If I start talking too loud you tell me, okay? 12 And I'm not talking loud because I'm mad at you or anything. 13 Sometimes I do that, but I'm not going to do that with you. 14 A. You ain't going to hurt this ear anyway; I'm 15 partially deaf. 16 Q. All right. That helps. At the time you and Mr. 17 Wesbecker talked about a mutual suicide, both you and he were 18 on Prozac, weren't you? 19 MR. STOPHER: Same objection, Your Honor. He 20 doesn't know. 21 JUDGE POTTER: Overruled. 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Let's start back on the bottom of Page 3. 24 "...I was still considering going back to work. I told him 25 yes. He said, 'I wish you wouldn't. You might get hurt. 155 1 I've got a plan that will result in eliminating that F-blank 2 place, meaning Standard Gravure, that would put an end to 3 everybody's worry.' He told me he is going to get plastic 4 explosives, tape these explosives on a four-foot wing span, 5 remote-control airplane and aim it at the naphtha recovery 6 system and wipe the whole F-blank place off the face of the 7 earth." Correct, sir? 8 A. Correct. 9 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith, it will help everybody 10 keep their voice up if you go back to the podium. 11 MR. SMITH: Okay. I think I've got an extra 12 copy of this if I can find it. I just don't want to -- I 13 wanted him to have the benefit of having it in front of him, 14 Your Honor. 15 Here's your copy. Are you with me on Page 4? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. It says, "I said, 'Joe, you're kidding me, 18 aren't you,' and he didn't answer me yes or no. I said, 'You 19 could kill a lot of innocent people who have never done you 20 harm and, who knows, the way my luck goes I might be working 21 the day it happens.' He said, 'You're right, Jimmy. I guess 22 I'd better go to Plan B because it wouldn't hurt you -- 23 MR. STOPHER: Because I wouldn't hurt you. 24 Q. "'I wouldn't hurt you for anything in the 25 world'." Correct, sir? 156 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. "He changed the conversation real quick and 3 started talking about the LTD plan. I told my doctor the 4 28th" -- that's the 28th of August, right? 5 A. Correct. 6 Q. Two days after you first learned about this 7 plan? 8 A. He told me that on Saturday and I went to the 9 doctor on a Monday. 10 Q. All right. "I told my doctor the 28th about 11 Wesbecker. He told me did I think the man meant what he said, 12 and I said yes. He also asked me if the man was seeing a 13 doctor and I said I assume that he is. Doctor Gabbert told me 14 that I should tell someone of authority at work to have this 15 man watched and to take some precautions if they saw him 16 around my place of work. 17 "That same day that I returned to work, I 18 informed my immediate superiors and supervisor what Wesbecker 19 had said. I again told my immediate supervisors that 20 following Tuesday -- Thursday, in the presence of my 21 supervisor again. From that day on, I told the people that I 22 work with about what Wesbecker had said. I -- again I 23 mentioned it to one of my supervisors who had informed me that 24 the superintendent had not said anything to him about it. He 25 told me he didn't think Joe had any hard feelings toward him 157 1 because they had a good working relationship." Do you know 2 who that supervisor was, Mr. Lucas? 3 A. That's Kay Back. 4 Q. Kay Back? "From that day on after he, my 5 supervisor, told me this, and knowing he is a close friend of 6 the supervisor's, I really became worried. Joe returned on 7 Saturday before Labor Day to my home." What day is that going 8 to be? 9 A. That's the following Saturday. 10 Q. All right. Is that -- now, are we in early 11 September? 12 A. No. I think it might be the first Saturday in 13 September. 14 Q. All right. Saturday, the 2nd or the 7th -- or, 15 the 9th? 16 A. I'd say the 9th. 17 Q. All right. Did you know that Joe Wesbecker was 18 still on Prozac at that time? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Well, he told you he was on Prozac? 21 A. He told me he was on Prozac, yes. 22 Q. Did he tell you anything ever after that about 23 getting off Prozac? 24 A. No. 25 Q. It says, "Joe returned on Saturday before Labor 158 1 Day to my home. When he pulled up into my drive, he was 2 driving a gold-colored sports car with a T-top." Was that his 3 wife Betty's car, do you know? 4 A. No. That was -- he told me that it was his 5 stepdaughter's car. 6 Q. His stepdaughter, Melissa? 7 A. Brenda's daughter. 8 Q. Brenda's daughter? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And is that where he told you -- he said he was 11 going to get some tires put on it? 12 A. I don't think that was at that time. I think he 13 was driving it before then. 14 Q. Okay. You said, "I didn't recognize the car. I 15 stood up from the table to see who it was and saw it was Joe. 16 He had a stubby growth on his face. He appeared as if he just 17 woke up and his hair was a mess." 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. "His clothes was soiled and wrinkled. He 20 certainly didn't look like the Joe I had known for 29 years." 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Do I take it, Mr. Lucas, this was a completely 23 different look than what you had seen? 24 A. Yes. Yes. 25 Q. Different from ever before? 159 1 A. Right. 2 Q. "I told Betty to tell him I was asleep because 3 he looked strange. Betty said no, I'm not being -- 4 A. She wasn't lying for me. 5 Q. "I'm not lying. He was nice enough to come and 6 see you and maybe he came to pick up his papers." Is that the 7 LTD papers that he left with you, sir? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. "When he came in, he sat down at the kitchen 10 table and Betty fixed him a Diet Pepsi." Do you need to take 11 a break, sir? 12 A. No. 13 Q. I know this is -- I'm trying to get through it 14 as quickly as possible, sir. "Betty fixed him a Diet Pepsi. 15 He asked me if I made up my mind about going back to work. I 16 told him I had already returned to work on the five-to-one 17 shift. Again I said -- again he said, 'I wish you hadn't gone 18 back.' That's when he said, 'It really doesn't matter. I'll 19 just have to make a couple of changes in Plan B.' I asked him 20 what he meant by Plan B. He said, 'It doesn't concern you, 21 and it only concerns Shea, McCall, Paula Warman, Donald Cox, 22 Jim Popham and the rest of the F-blank office cronies.' 23 That's when Betty hollered, 'Hey, none of that.' And he told 24 Betty he was sorry but that he was really pissed off at the 25 management. 160 1 "As he got ready to leave, he told me that 2 everything would be all right, that him and old AK-AK would 3 take care of everything. As he got ready to leave, I walked 4 him to his car and Betty walked out to look at his car. Again 5 I said, 'Don't you do anything silly, Joe,' and when he got 6 into the car Betty said, 'Wait a minute, Joe. You forgot your 7 papers.' He said, 'That's all right, Betty. Maybe Jim can 8 use them. I won't need them anymore.' He throwed up his hand 9 and he waved as he drove away. 10 "All day Sunday and Monday I thought about what 11 he said about AK-AK. The only AK-AK that crossed my mind was 12 an automatic aviation gun that shoots down planes. I thought 13 maybe what he was trying to tell me was that he was still 14 thinking about explosives and shooting the plane idea down and 15 was going to carry the plastic explosives on his person into 16 Standard himself. From then on I was terrified, not knowing 17 what he was going to do. I told everyone on my shift that 18 would listen, Popham, Kinberger, Sitzler, Emert, Kenny Cronin 19 and others I can't recall. 20 "When the wife woke me that Thursday morning, 21 September 14th, she told me that someone was shooting people 22 in Standard. Three was shot at that time, about 9:15 A.M., 23 according to the news break-in. I then told Betty, 'Oh, my 24 God, it's Joe Wesbecker.' And she said, 'Oh, surely not.' 25 When I heard on the news he had used an AK-47, then it dawned 161 1 on me what he meant when he said my old AK-AK. He was telling 2 me AK-AK. That's when I broke down and said, 'God, forgive me 3 for not understanding sooner.' That's when I called the city 4 police to inform them I had papers from Joe and that they 5 could come to my home and get them. After waiting four or 6 five days, I called my attorney and told him that I had to 7 tell the story and gave those papers to him. The rest is 8 history." Signed, Jim Lucas; correct, sir? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. So the occasions where these plans were 11 mentioned to you was when Joe Wesbecker was on Prozac, weren't 12 they, Mr. Lucas? 13 A. Correct. 14 MR. SMITH: I know we were supposed to premark 15 these, Your Honor, but could I get this marked and offered 16 into evidence so the jury can have it? 17 JUDGE POTTER: Be admitted. 18 MR. SMITH: Can we make copies at the break and 19 distribute it? 20 JUDGE POTTER: What number will it be, Ms. 21 Zettler? 22 MS. ZETTLER: 211, Your Honor. 23 JUDGE POTTER: 211 is admitted. Anything else, 24 Mr.... 25 MR. SMITH: Let me check, Your Honor. 162 1 Your wife also made a diary, did she not? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And she pinpointed these last conversations as 4 occurring the three Saturdays before the incident on Thursday, 5 September 14th; correct, sir? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. I have an old calendar that we marked 8 Plaintiffs' Exhibit 210 and here's Thursday, September 14th, 9 so if you count back, the last time you saw Joe was the 10 Saturday before, that would have been the 9th; is that right, 11 sir? 12 A. Right. 13 Q. And is that when he specifically told you about 14 he would go to Plan B? 15 MR. STOPHER: No, Counsel, you misread the 16 document. I object. 17 JUDGE POTTER: Well, why don't you first 18 rephrase the question? 19 Q. Is that when he told you he would go to Plan B, 20 sir, on the 9th? 21 A. I can't swear to whether it was the 9th or the 22 2nd. 23 Q. All right. One of those two dates? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And then the other Saturday would have had to 163 1 have been August 26th; correct, sir? 2 A. Right. Correct. 3 Q. We'd offer Plaintiffs' Exhibit 210, Your Honor. 4 JUDGE POTTER: Be admitted. 5 SHERIFF CECIL: (Hands document to jurors). 6 Q. Now, Mr. Lucas, there may be some confusion 7 about this conversation that occurred in July concerning the 8 Prozac; all right, sir? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And I'll tell you straight up, the reason for 11 this confusion is, is that the record has reflected up to this 12 time that Mr. Wesbecker got his prescription for Prozac on 13 August 10th and got it filled on August 13th or 17th, I'm not 14 sure -- 17th. All right? 15 A. All right. 16 Q. But we had this conversation and, frankly, I'm 17 not sure but what this conversation might have really happened 18 in August and not July. And let me show you why I have this 19 as a concern, and I want to get it cleared up, okay, sir? 20 A. Sure. 21 Q. On Page 217, beginning at Line 1, you ask, "Are 22 we still in July." 23 And the question is, "Yes, sir." 24 Your answer was: "I took my medication and my 25 doctor just changed my medication and that's when he started 164 1 elaborating quite a bit on the medication I was taking." 2 The question was: "What medication were you 3 taking? 4 "Answer: I was -- the psychiatrist I was seeing 5 was Larry Mudd and he prescribed Prozac." Right, sir? 6 A. Correct. 7 Q. "Question: And Wesbecker started talking about 8 Prozac? 9 "Answer: Oh, yes, quite extensively. 10 "Question: What did he say about Prozac? 11 "Answer: A lot of times you've got to be 12 careful not to drink any alcohol, you'll have this to happen 13 and that to happen, you know, rambling on about the 14 medication. 15 "Question: What else did he say about it? 16 "Answer: Said it was some good shit. That's 17 exactly what he said. 18 "Question: Did he tell you in July of '89 that 19 he had taken it? 20 "Answer: Yes. 21 "I'm sorry. Didn't hear his answer. 22 "Answer: Yes. Yes. 23 "Question: Did he tell you when he had taken 24 it? 25 "Answer: From the way he talked, he was still 165 1 on it." Right, sir? 2 A. Correct. 3 Q. "Still on it from when? 4 "Answer: From whenever they prescribed it to 5 him. He said, 'That's what I'm taking. That's what I'm 6 taking.' That's when he said it's some good -- excuse me. 7 "Question: That's when he said it was some good 8 shit? 9 "Answer: Yeah. He didn't say when he started 10 on it, you know." Correct, sir? 11 A. Correct. 12 Q. The fact is, by virtue of what you say he said, 13 he was still on it and that's what I'm taking -- can you tell 14 us now, Mr. Lucas, that maybe this conversation in fact 15 occurred in August, after Mr. Wesbecker was indeed taking 16 Prozac? 17 A. In all honesty, when I gave the deposition I 18 thought it was July. 19 Q. All right. But you think now it was probably in 20 August? 21 A. It's possible. Like I say, I was having my 22 problems myself. 23 Q. I understand, sir. It's understandable that you 24 could have been confused. And is it your impression that you 25 are confused here, because you do definitely say that he said 166 1 then, "That's what I'm taking." You recall that specifically? 2 A. When was it -- in the deposition when was it 3 when he came in and took the Pepsi? 4 Q. That was -- in looking at your testimony from 5 what you wrote down -- immediately after that, that would have 6 been on August the 26th. 7 A. That's when he took the Pepsi because he said he 8 didn't want a beer because that would react against his 9 medication. 10 Q. All right. Let me get that and see. Well, it 11 looks like Betty fixed him a Diet Pepsi on the last time he 12 came out there in September. Could she have fixed him a Diet 13 Pepsi on another occasion? 14 A. No. That was the only time. 15 Q. All right. So that would have had to have been 16 September 9th. It says -- well, now I lost it. It says, 17 "Betty fixed him a Diet Pepsi. I asked -- he asked me if I 18 made up my mind about going back to work. I told him I had 19 already returned to work on the five-to-one shift again. He 20 said, 'I wish you hadn't gone back'." 21 A. Well, anyway, that's the reason he drank Diet 22 Pepsi because he couldn't drink beer with the medication. 23 Q. The Prozac? 24 A. Right. 25 Q. Did you know that Joe had in fact after his 167 1 father-in-law died, gone on a trip to Gatlinburg, Tennessee, 2 with his wife Betty in July, latter July? 3 A. You mean Brenda? 4 Q. Brenda. 5 A. No. 6 Q. He didn't mention that to you? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Tell the jury -- 9 A. When did the father-in-law die? 10 Q. July the 14th. 11 A. That's when he told me that he had reason to 12 believe that their relationship was getting back together 13 again. 14 Q. All right. All right. So he was -- as I 15 understand, he was really up in July when you saw him? 16 A. Yeah. 17 Q. So you couldn't have been talking about the 18 mutual suicide in July. 19 A. That was early July on the suicide. 20 Q. That was early July? Well, now, remember you 21 and he were both taking Prozac at the time. 22 A. Right. 23 Q. So Joe didn't get Prozac until August the 17th. 24 A. Okay. 25 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, I object to him 168 1 supplying answers and information. 2 JUDGE POTTER: Right. Mr. Smith, I think we've 3 been over this. 4 Q. Does that help you, Mr. Lucas? 5 A. No. No. 6 Q. Was it after you last saw Joe that last Saturday 7 that you told Don Cox, Bill McKeown and James Popham about 8 this? 9 A. I honestly have to say I think it was at the 10 time when he was having his trouble with Jimmy. I'm almost 11 sure it was before July. 12 Q. But he had made the threat to blow up the plant 13 with the model airplane; correct? Hadn't he? 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. Okay. My question simply was, did you tell 16 about this model airplane incident after you last saw Joe on 17 the Saturday before the Thursday that it happened? 18 A. I did. 19 Q. That was the first time you reported it to 20 anybody at Standard Gravure? 21 A. Right. 22 Q. That's all we have, Your Honor. 23 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher. 24 25 169 1 FURTHER_EXAMINATION _______ ___________ 2 3 BY_MR._STOPHER: __ ___ ________ 4 Q. Mr. Lucas, just a few final questions, sir, and 5 I apologize for having to ask these. If I understand 6 correctly, sir, on one occasion Mr. Wesbecker suggested to you 7 that you shoot each other simultaneously? 8 A. Correct. 9 Q. In looking at this document, sir, that was 10 apparently dictated by your wife -- I mean, dictated by you 11 and written by your wife; am I correct, sir? 12 A. She says I did. 13 Q. Do you have any recollection of doing that, sir? 14 A. Some of it I do. 15 Q. Mr. Lucas, I don't want to make either you or me 16 have to read this all out loud again, but in looking through 17 this document, I didn't see or hear anything in here about 18 Mr. Wesbecker suggesting that the two of you kill each other; 19 is that accurate, sir? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Now, sir, if I understand correctly, the 22 occasion on which he suggested that you kill each other was 23 shortly after his father-in-law's funeral; am I correct, sir? 24 A. It may have been, but it seems to me like it 25 was -- seems like to me it was in the -- in all honesty, I 170 1 can't remember exactly when. 2 Q. All right, sir. Let me see if these references 3 from your prior deposition refresh your memory, sir. 4 A. Okay. 5 Q. Page 219, sir: "And in July of 1989, he started 6 talking about suicide? 7 "Answer: Right. 8 "Question: What did he say about suicide? 9 "Answer: Telling me that -- telling me about 10 that seems to be the only answer that he has with the problems 11 that he has. He can't see no light at the end of the tunnel. 12 "Question: Did he tell you what problems he 13 thought he had? 14 "Answer: Just like I say, he was having trouble 15 with Jimmy. 16 "Question: Did he tell you what troubles he was 17 having with Jimmy? 18 "Answer: I want to say at that particular time 19 he said something about the police had got him for exposure or 20 something." 21 MR. SMITH: Your Honor, that's beyond -- 22 JUDGE POTTER: Overruled. 23 Q. "Did that bother Joe Wesbecker? 24 "Oh, quite a bit. Quite a bit. 25 "Question: Was that because he was a 171 1 meticulous, perfectionist-type person? 2 "Answer: That, and I think the other reason was 3 combined that Jimmy was supposed to have been the one with 4 no -- you know, he was perfect. You know, he saw Jimmy and 5 Kevin in different lights. 6 "Question: He saw Jimmy as the college 7 graduate? 8 "Answer: His mentor, yes. 9 "Question: His mentor. He was the one that was 10 going to be better than Joe had ever been? 11 "Answer: Right. 12 "Did he mention to you what he thought his other 13 problems were that he couldn't see any way out from? 14 "Answer: None other than he was just a nervous 15 wreck and didn't think he could return to work. I don't know. 16 Like I say, his conversation went from one direction to 17 another, you know. I don't exactly recall everything. 18 "Question: When he talked about suicide, sir, 19 did he tell you that he had attempted suicide? 20 "Answer: I knew that he had attempted suicide. 21 "How did you know that? 22 "From his family members. 23 "Who had told you about that? 24 "Well, his son, for one. 25 "Question: Jimmy? 172 1 "Answer: Yeah. 2 "When had Jimmy told you that his father had 3 attempted suicide? 4 "It's back, I'd say, in the early '80s. At that 5 time he was living -- let me see. When he first started out, 6 he lived on Patricia. When he moved back on Mount Holyoke 7 Road, that's out off Lower Hunters Trace, and that's the first 8 mention was that he -- that I was aware of that he had tried 9 to commit suicide." 10 Then let me move over, sir, finally to the 11 quotes on Page 224. "Question: Did he mention on that 12 occasion" -- Line 13. "Did he mention on that occasion when 13 he discussed suicide taking anybody else with him? 14 "Answer: Yes. 15 "What did he say about that? 16 "As a matter of fact, he found the solution that 17 -- I don't know whether he was joking or not about that -- 18 with the problems I had and the problems he had, we might 19 shoot each other. I came back with kidding him about he 20 probably wouldn't pull it, I wouldn't pull the trigger on him, 21 you know, but that was it. 22 "Question: It was certainly not anything that 23 you considered seriously and it was a joke, as far as you were 24 concerned? 25 "Answer: No. I didn't consider it a joke. I 173 1 don't know how I felt about it. It just hit me in a way that 2 he -- you didn't know whether he was kidding or serious." 3 Does that bring back that conversation, sir? 4 A. Yeah. 5 Q. That was a different conversation than the time 6 that he talked about the Outlaws, the contracts, the 7 explosives on the model airplane and old AK-AK, wasn't it, 8 sir? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. It was at a different time; correct? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Mr. Lucas, you mentioned earlier or perhaps 13 Mr. Smith mentioned it, that your wife made a diary and listed 14 some dates and some things in that diary; correct, sir? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Let me show you, sir, a copy of that diary, and 17 on the date August 26, it says, "Joe Wesbecker came to see 18 Jim. Brought papers for him to read. Also came to see Jim 19 when father-in-law died but can't remember date." Did I read 20 that correctly, sir? 21 A. Right. 22 Q. Mr. Lucas, just a couple of other questions, 23 sir. If I understand correctly, on this occasion when 24 Mr. Wesbecker asked whether or not you had returned to work, 25 you told him you had; correct? 174 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And that you were on the five-to-one shift; 3 right? 4 A. Correct. 5 Q. And when he mentioned, sir, that he was going to 6 use a model airplane with explosives to blow the place up, 7 your response to him was that that would hurt -- I thought you 8 said "a lot of innocent people that hadn't done you no harm." 9 Is that right, sir? 10 A. Correct. 11 Q. And on that response from you or suggestion from 12 you, he said, "You're right, Jimmy. I guess it would be 13 better to go to Plan B because I wouldn't hurt you for 14 anything in the world." Is that the way it was, sir? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Mr. Lucas, did you do your best to convince the 17 people in authority there at Standard Gravure that he was 18 coming? 19 MR. SMITH: Objection, leading. 20 JUDGE POTTER: Sustained. 21 Q. Mr. Lucas, was there anything else that you 22 could have done at Standard Gravure other than what you did? 23 MR. SMITH: Objection. Leading. 24 JUDGE POTTER: Overruled. 25 A. I'm sure there was some things that I could have 175 1 done, another thing I could have done, but at that time it 2 didn't come to mind. 3 Q. You did the best you could, sir? 4 A. I hope I did. 5 Q. Thank you, sir. That's all I have. 6 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith, any last little bit or 7 not? 8 MR. SMITH: I don't think so, Your Honor. 9 Thank you, Mr. Lucas. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much, sir. You 11 may step down; you're excused. 12 Ladies and gentlemen, we'll take the afternoon 13 recess. As I've mentioned to you-all before, do not discuss 14 the case or let anybody talk to you about it. Do not form or 15 express opinions about it. We'll take a 15-minute recess. 16 (RECESS) 17 SHERIFF CECIL: The jury is entering. All 18 jurors are present. Court is back in session. 19 JUDGE POTTER: Please be seated. Mr. Stopher, 20 do you want to call your next witness? 21 MR. STOPHER: Yes, Your Honor. Gerald Griffin. 22 JUDGE POTTER: Is there any objection if my 23 sheriff publishes 211 at this time? 24 MR. STOPHER: No, Your Honor. 25 JUDGE POTTER: Ladies and gentlemen, I'm going 176 1 to kind of give you the same comment I gave you once before 2 when you got an exhibit of several pages after the time it was 3 talked about. Remember, you're to pay attention to what's 4 coming from the witness stand and don't let the fact that 5 you've gotten an exhibit a little bit late detract from 6 listening to this particular witness. 7 Sir, would you raise your right hand. 8 9 GERALD GRIFFIN, after first being duly sworn, 10 was examined and testified as follows: 11 12 JUDGE POTTER: Would you have a seat, keep your 13 voice up, state your name loudly and then spell it for me, 14 please. 15 MR. GRIFFIN: I'm Gerald Griffin. G-E-R-A-L-D, 16 G-R-I-F-F-I-N. 17 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Griffin, you see the brown 18 thing you've got your hands on? That's the microphone, so if 19 you keep your hands off of it. Thank you very much, sir. 20 21 EXAMINATION ___________ 22 23 BY_MR._STOPHER: __ ___ _______ 24 Q. You could get yourself in trouble with the 25 sheriff's department. 177 1 A. Already. 2 Q. Mr. Griffin, where do you live, sir? 3 A. I live at 161 Thierman Lane. 4 Q. And how old are you, sir? 5 A. I'm 56 years old. 6 Q. And by whom are you presently employed? 7 A. Jefferson County Sheriff's Department. 8 Q. And about how long have you been with the 9 Sheriff's Department, sir? 10 A. Full time, three years. 11 Q. And were you with the Sheriff's Department part 12 time prior to that? 13 A. Yes, sir; I was in what they call the Working 14 100s. 15 Q. Working 100s? 16 A. Yes. It was a volunteer sheriff's organization. 17 We would do the security for charitable causes. 18 Q. And how long did you work part time for the 19 Working 100s? 20 A. Approximately 13 years. 21 Q. All right. Now, sir, were you employed at 22 Standard Gravure? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. And when did you start to work there? 25 A. 1956, May or June, I think it was in 1956. 178 1 Q. All right. That's when you started? 2 A. Yeah. 3 Q. When did you end, sir? 4 A. Whenever they closed it. Was it in '92? 5 Q. February 4, '92, the date that it closed? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. During those, gosh, 36 years -- 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. -- did you work in the pressroom? 10 A. Yes, sir. I worked 34 years approximately in 11 the pressroom. 12 Q. And you were a pressman? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. During that period of time, sir, did you know 15 Joe Wesbecker? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. And during that period of time, sir, without 18 going over each year and each decade separately, but during 19 that period of time, sir, were there occasions that he would 20 see the work assignments or the work list and react to that? 21 A. Yes. 22 MS. ZETTLER: Objection, Your Honor. We'd like 23 a time period. 24 JUDGE POTTER: Objection sustained. Mr. 25 Stopher, could you narrow down your time frame? 179 1 Q. All right. What time frame are we talking 2 about, sir? 3 A. I'd say at least four years before we closed 4 down, so that would be back in '87, '88. 5 Q. What sort of reaction would he have when he'd 6 see the work list, sir? 7 A. It would depend on where he would be working at. 8 Of course, that was with everybody, you know, what jobs you 9 wanted. Just one time he ever said anything to me about 10 really, you know, I mean there was times that everybody 11 complained about where they was working at. 12 Q. Was there one time in particular, though, that 13 you remember, sir? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. What did he say on that occasion? 16 A. Something about that where he was working that 17 night, he says, "One of these days," he says, "I'll be back," 18 and he says, "I'm going to get these SBs." 19 Q. Mr. Griffin, before the shootings occurred, sir, 20 which happened on September 14, 1989, did anyone ever give you 21 any information that Joe Wesbecker had made threats? 22 A. One afternoon -- 23 MS. ZETTLER: Excuse me for a second. I'm going 24 to object. This calls for hearsay. 25 JUDGE POTTER: Overruled. Well, let me see you 180 1 up here, Mr. Stopher. 2 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 3 JUDGE POTTER: What's he going to say? 4 MR. STOPHER: That Jim Lucas told him. 5 MS. ZETTLER: This man hasn't heard any direct 6 statements from Wesbecker except what he's testified to 7 already. His testimony is replete with I heard this and I 8 heard that. 9 MR. STOPHER: What I'm talking about is what he 10 heard from Jim Lucas, which Jim Lucas just talked about. 11 JUDGE POTTER: We're just talking about 12 confirming what Mr. Lucas said two or three days before the 13 shooting? 14 MR. STOPHER: Right, sir. 15 JUDGE POTTER: I think that is permissible to 16 corroborate what Mr. Lucas said. 17 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 18 Q. Let me repeat the question, sir. Before the 19 shootings occurred, did you get any information that Mr. 20 Wesbecker had issued any threats? 21 A. No, sir. 22 Q. Did anyone tell you before the shootings that he 23 was coming to the plant to do some harm? 24 A. No, sir. 25 Q. Did Jim Lucas tell you that -- anything about 181 1 Joe Wesbecker before the incident? 2 MS. ZETTLER: Objection. Leading. 3 JUDGE POTTER: Overruled. 4 A. One afternoon Mr. Lucas come into the Poodle 5 Park before work and stated to me, he says, "I saw a friend of 6 yours today," and I said, "Who's that," and he said, "Joe 7 Wesbecker." And I said, "Well, how's Joe doing," because I 8 knew Joe had been off sick. And he says, "Not too good." I 9 said, "Well, what's wrong with him." He said, "Well, he wants 10 to buy a model airplane, a remote-controlled airplane and put 11 plastic explosives on the wings and crash it into the recovery 12 system and blow the place up." So, you know, I said, "Well, I 13 see that Joe's still pissed off at this place," you know. And 14 that's all that was said about it. 15 Q. Was there any talk between the two of you, sir, 16 about reporting this to supervisors or people in management or 17 authority at that time? 18 A. I think it might have been said that, you know, 19 you should tell somebody about it or something like that, and 20 I believe Jim reported it to the foremen. 21 Q. Did anybody do anything about it at Standard 22 Gravure, as far as you know, sir? 23 A. As far as I know, there was nothing done. 24 Q. Nothing at all? 25 A. No, sir. 182 1 Q. That's all, sir. Thank you. 2 JUDGE POTTER: Ms. Zettler. 3 4 EXAMINATION ___________ 5 6 BY_MS._ZETTLER: __ ___ ________ 7 Q. Good afternoon, Officer Griffith. How are you? 8 A. Fine. 9 Q. Good. I went through your deposition, also, and 10 there's a couple of things I want to cover. Okay? You always 11 thought that Joe Wesbecker was a nice guy, didn't you? 12 A. I thought he was, yeah. 13 Q. And he never caused any trouble that you were 14 aware of before September 14th, 1989; correct? 15 A. As far as I know, when he was around me he never 16 had been any trouble. 17 Q. Occasionally you heard some of the other guys, 18 other pressmen call him by his various nicknames that he was 19 given, correct, like Rocky or Pillsbury Doughboy or a couple 20 others; right? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. He never really got upset about that, did he? 23 A. Everyone down there had a nickname more or less. 24 I would say, no, I never saw him get upset about it. 25 Q. Just about everybody down there had a nickname? 183 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And everybody would call each other nicknames 3 and tease? 4 A. Yes. Instead of calling you your own name, they 5 would call you a nickname. 6 Q. You never saw Mr. Wesbecker get upset because he 7 was called Rocky or Pillsbury Doughboy or anything like that? 8 A. No. 9 Q. When Mr. Lucas told you about this airplane 10 incident, that was really within a couple weeks prior to the 11 shootings, wasn't it? 12 A. I really can't recall now. I think it was 13 longer than that. It seemed like maybe a couple of months, 14 you know. 15 Q. A couple months before? 16 A. It may have been about a month. It didn't seem 17 like it happened right away, you know. It seems like there 18 was a time, what I can recall. 19 Q. If I told you that Mr. Lucas testified just now 20 under oath that it was within a month before the shootings, 21 would that surprise you? 22 A. It could have been. Like I said, I've done 23 lost -- I'm not really good at time, but I would say it was 24 somewhere -- 25 Q. It wasn't like the day before? 184 1 A. It wasn't a day before; it wasn't a week. It 2 was sometime afterward. How long, I really don't know. I 3 couldn't tell you. 4 Q. As somebody trained in law enforcement, did you 5 take that, what Mr. Lucas told you, as a serious threat that 6 it was going to happen? 7 A. No, because I just knew Joe, you know. I mean, 8 I thought I knew Joe, let's put it that way. And I just 9 thought he was -- everybody gets -- you get keyed up with your 10 job sometime and you say things -- people say things and 11 that's what I took it as as, just blowing off steam. And I 12 figured, well, you're upset, talking about something like 13 that, you get it off your chest, that would be it. But, no, I 14 had no inclination that he would do what he did. 15 Q. You didn't take the threat seriously, again, as 16 somebody who is trained in law enforcement at that time? You 17 were being trained at least at that time? 18 A. Yes, ma'am, but I didn't have the training I 19 have now. 20 Q. But you had some training in law enforcement at 21 that time? 22 A. Yes, ma'am. 23 Q. And even given your experience up to that time, 24 you didn't consider that threat serious enough for you to make 25 a report to anybody that was your supervisor or any management 185 1 at Standard Gravure; correct? 2 A. No. 3 Q. I believe you said in your deposition that you 4 felt that Joe killed people who were his friends at Standard 5 Gravure; correct? 6 A. Please? 7 Q. That some of the people that he shot were 8 actually friends of his? 9 A. Yes, ma'am. 10 Q. Can you tell us the names of some of those 11 people, like, for instance, Richard Barger? 12 A. Yeah. Dickie. 13 Q. How about Bill Ganote? 14 A. I would say Bill was. Like I said, everybody he 15 shot, I don't really know of anybody that he might have really 16 been after. I mean, maybe -- myself, I really don't know. I 17 don't know. But like I say, I thought everybody was friendly 18 enough down there. We was one happy big family down there. 19 When the Binghams owned it, it was a different area to work 20 in. 21 Q. Do you know of any fights or any arguments 22 between Mr. Wesbecker and any of the pressmen that he killed? 23 A. No. I don't. 24 Q. As far as you were concerned, they were all 25 friends when Joe left on long-term disability? 186 1 A. As far as I know, yeah. Like I said, there are 2 so many shifts down there and Joe didn't work my shift all the 3 time and he would change shifts, you know, so... 4 Q. Okay. Thank you. That's all I have. 5 A. Okay. 6 7 FURTHER_EXAMINATION _______ ___________ 8 9 BY_MR._STOPHER: __ ___ _______ 10 Q. Mr. Griffin, when you were there with Mr. Lucas 11 at Poodle Park -- 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. -- that's right adjacent to the Standard Gravure 14 building between The Courier-Journal building? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. And he told you about Joe Wesbecker and this 17 model airplane, I thought I understood you to say that -- you 18 said he was still pissed off at Standard Gravure? 19 A. Yeah. 20 Q. What does that refer to, sir? 21 A. Well, I think he was -- I think he was mad at 22 them for what happened to him, you know. He didn't like the 23 jobs that they would put him on. He didn't like to work the 24 folder is what it was, and that's why he would jump shifts, I 25 believe. This is my opinion, why he would change one shift to 187 1 another. And, like I said, Joe wouldn't have enough seniority 2 to get day work so he'd have to really go between the 3 one-to-nine shift and the five-to-one shift. And, like I 4 said, that's the only thing that I would say he was mad about, 5 you know, because they would put him on these folders. And I 6 guess it made him nervous or whatever and that's how come he 7 got his disability out of the company, you know, because of 8 the working the folders. Like I said, that's my presumption. 9 Q. You never saw him when he was off on disability? 10 A. No, sir. 11 Q. That's all, sir. Thank you. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much, sir. You 13 may step down; you're excused. 14 Mr. Stopher, do you want to call your next 15 witness? 16 MR. STOPHER: Yes, Your Honor. We call Charles 17 Metten. 18 JUDGE POTTER: Sir, could I get you to step down 19 here. Want to raise you right hand, sir? 20 21 CHARLES METTEN, after first being duly sworn, 22 was examined and testified as follows: 23 24 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Would you step over here 25 in the witness box. Would you state your name loudly and 188 1 clearly and then spell it for me, please. 2 MR. METTEN: Charles E. Metten, M-E-T-T-E-N. 3 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. And keep your voice up and 4 answer Mr. Stopher's questions. 5 6 EXAMINATION ___________ 7 8 BY_MR._STOPHER: __ ___ _______ 9 Q. Mr. Metten, where do you live, sir? 10 A. 6611 Delton Road. 11 Q. And how old are you? 12 A. Fifty-eight. 13 Q. And by whom are you employed, sir? 14 A. I'm employed by Robbins Heating & Air now. 15 Q. And prior to that by whom were you employed? 16 A. Standard Gravure Corporation. 17 Q. When did you go to work there, sir? 18 A. At Standard? 19 Q. Yes, sir. 20 A. 1959. 21 Q. And how long did you work there? 22 A. Until they closed. 23 Q. February 4, 1992? 24 A. Right. 25 Q. And where did you work at Standard Gravure, sir? 189 1 A. I worked in the conveyor department. 2 Q. And is that connected with the pressroom? 3 A. The pressroom's on the first floor and this is 4 on the third floor. 5 Q. So you were on a different set of floors from 6 the pressroom? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Mr. Metten, during the, gosh, 33 years, almost, 9 you worked there? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Thirty-three I guess exactly, did you know Joe 12 Wesbecker, sir? 13 A. Yes, I did. 14 Q. Did you know him outside of work or just at 15 work? 16 A. I knew him outside of work and at work. 17 Q. And how did you know him outside of work, sir? 18 A. I just met him when he started dating Brenda 19 Camp. I think that's her name now. 20 Q. And did you have some social occasions with him 21 at that time, sir? 22 A. Yes. We went to a Christmas party together. 23 Q. Okay. Did you ever hear Joe Wesbecker talk 24 about Standard Gravure? 25 A. He never mentioned that much to me about 190 1 Standard Gravure. We talked about personal matters. 2 Q. Did you ever hear him talk about Mike Shea? 3 A. Yes. He said at one time he stated that 4 somebody ought to do away with him. 5 Q. And why did he say that somebody ought to do 6 away with Mike Shea? 7 A. He seemed to be upset with him, and a lot of the 8 people who worked there was upset with Mike Shea. 9 Q. Did he say that just to you, sir? 10 A. I don't know. It was just talk between me and 11 him. 12 Q. It was just the two of you talking? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Did he say why somebody ought to do away with 15 Mike Shea? 16 A. He didn't like the way he was operating the 17 company and he thought he was a corporate raider that come in 18 to close the company down. 19 Q. Did he ever talk to you about Don McCall? 20 A. No. He never talked to me about Don McCall. 21 Q. Jim Popham and Bill McKeown and foremen? 22 A. No. He didn't -- like I said, our discussion 23 mostly was personal. 24 Q. Did he ever complain that Popham would ride him? 25 A. No. He never talked to me about that. 191 1 Q. Do you recall, Mr. Metten, giving your 2 deposition in this case under oath on September 28th, 1993? 3 A. I didn't -- I haven't looked through that 4 deposition since then. 5 Q. You do recall testifying under oath then, sir? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Let me ask you if you recall giving these 8 answers to questions on Page 37 of the deposition, beginning 9 at Line 23. 10 "Question: What kind of things would Joe 11 Wesbecker talk to you about? 12 "Answer: Mostly he complained about the 13 company, complained about Mike Shea, complained about my 14 ex-wife and her husband and, like I say, he talked to me about 15 his ex-wife and the trouble he had with her, but other than 16 that, I don't remember him. I know he had trouble with a 17 foreman or assistant foreman, but he never did really stay on 18 that very long." 19 A. He never talked to me about that, but I knew he 20 was having trouble with the foremans. 21 Q. Let me go on and see if this refreshes your 22 memory, sir. "Question: What foreman was that? 23 "Answer: Popham. 24 "Did he have a problem with any other employees 25 or supervisors there at Standard Gravure? 192 1 "He had trouble with Bill McKeown. 2 "Was Bill a supervisor? 3 "Answer: He was a foreman over -- and Popham 4 was like an assistant foreman but, you know, they operated 5 about the same way we did upstairs. 6 "Question: What kind of trouble did Wesbecker 7 have with Jim Popham? 8 "Concerning running the press, concerning 9 adjustments he made on some stuff and that. 10 "Question: I don't quite understand. 11 "Well, you have adjustments. If you're a folder 12 operator at the press you have control over the color, how you 13 make adjustments on your color, how your color is laying and 14 things like that. They got into it about what was the right 15 adjustment and if you were moving it the right way. And if 16 you didn't correct it within a certain period of time, they 17 would jump on you and complain to you that, quote, you're 18 wasting paper, you're wasting ink, we can't have this, get 19 this in and get it straightened out. 20 "Question: And Popham would give Wesbecker some 21 trouble over that? 22 "Answer: Yeah. Right." 23 Do you recall that, sir? 24 A. Yes. I recall that. 25 Q. Did you ever hear Mr. Wesbecker -- excuse me -- 193 1 did Mr. Popham ever talk to you about a threat from Joe 2 Wesbecker? 3 A. He came up into that department and mentioned 4 something about a threat from Mr. Wesbecker. 5 Q. What did Mr. Popham tell you about a threat? 6 A. Just said that he had brought a gun in and had 7 showed some people on the press and that he had threatened to 8 do something with it. 9 Q. What did he tell you that he had threatened to 10 do with it? 11 A. To shoot people. 12 Q. What did you do when you heard about that 13 threat, sir? 14 A. I didn't do anything. 15 Q. Why was that, sir? 16 A. Because there was threats made in the company by 17 different people before, and you tend not to pay much 18 attention to them. 19 Q. So many threats that this was just one more? 20 MR. SMITH: Objection. Leading, Your Honor. 21 JUDGE POTTER: Sustained. 22 Q. How many threats of death did you hear about at 23 Standard Gravure in the 33 years that you worked there, sir? 24 A. Probably ten, ten or more. 25 Q. Did people carry guns into the plant, sir? 194 1 A. Yes, they did. 2 Q. Was it just one or two people or how many? 3 A. Quite a few. 4 Q. Was anything ever done about the threats or 5 about the guns at Standard Gravure? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Nothing at all? 8 A. Not to my knowledge. 9 MR. SMITH: Objection. Leading, Your Honor. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. It is leading but 11 everybody knew the answer. 12 Q. Mr. Metten, did you ever hear an exchange 13 between Joe Wesbecker and John Stein? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Would you tell us what you recall about that. 16 A. John Stein used to stop Joe when he come through 17 the shipping department. When John Stein was the head of the 18 shipping department or worked in the shipping department, he 19 would harass Wesbecker when he come through. And Wesbecker 20 one time while I was there talking to him, he had turned and 21 told John Stein, "I'll take care of your problem later." 22 Q. Did I understand, sir, that you are somehow 23 connected with an ex-wife of Mr. Wesbecker's? 24 A. No. My ex-wife is -- she is married to Doctor 25 Beasley. 195 1 Q. All right. Your ex-wife married Doctor Beasley 2 and Brenda Beasley married Joe Wesbecker? 3 A. Right. 4 Q. All right, sir. Did you ever have any 5 information about the relationship between Joe Wesbecker and 6 Doctor Beasley and your former wife? 7 A. Yes. That's what, mostly what -- when I ran 8 into Joe that's what he would talk about to me mostly was the 9 problems he was having with them. 10 Q. And what did Joe Wesbecker -- well, let me ask 11 you this, sir. Do you have any information as to what Joe 12 Wesbecker did with regard to Doctor Beasley? 13 A. He pretty well stalked Doctor Beasley for quite 14 a long time. 15 Q. Did you stay stocked? 16 A. Followed him everywhere. 17 Q. Oh, stalked? 18 A. Stalked. He followed him to restaurants, about 19 anywhere he went to, he pretty well knew where he was going 20 and things like that. He kept track of him pretty well. 21 Q. Did Mr. Wesbecker ever talk to you about any 22 guns that he had, sir? 23 A. The only gun he talked to me about that he had 24 was a pistol. 25 Q. Did he ever talk about that gun and anybody in 196 1 particular? 2 A. No, not to me. He just said something about he 3 had a gun and he thinks that -- he had said something about 4 somebody should do something about Mike Shea and that was it. 5 Q. Mr. Metten, you worked down there before Mike 6 Shea and after Mike Shea? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Any differences? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Would you tell us what, sir? 11 A. Well, the people of the company, the older 12 people seemed to think that it was just a matter of time when 13 Mike Shea come in because of his age that he would be closing 14 this plant up, and they felt like the Binghams had pretty well 15 sold them out, and there was a lot of animosity against Mike 16 Shea. 17 Q. Was there anything in particular with regard to 18 Joe Wesbecker and Mike Shea? 19 A. No. It was just the same feeling throughout the 20 plant with the other people. 21 Q. Did you ever hear Joe Wesbecker talk about 22 Donald Cox? 23 A. Not to me, he didn't. 24 Q. Did you ever hear Joe Wesbecker talk about the 25 chemicals at Standard Gravure? 197 1 A. No. Joe didn't talk to me about them. 2 Q. Were there chemicals down there, sir? 3 A. Yes, there was. 4 Q. And did the situation with the chemicals change 5 or remain the same between the Binghams and Mr. Shea? 6 A. They changed when Mr. Shea come in. I don't 7 remember the chemical -- the one chemical being used when the 8 Binghams was running the corporation that seemed to come in 9 after that. 10 Q. When was it better, under the Binghams or under 11 Shea? 12 A. It was better working under the Binghams. 13 Q. The chemicals were worse under Shea? 14 A. Yes. He brought in toluene, I think it was, and 15 Jim Popham had complained to me about he had a rash that the 16 doctors couldn't seem to find out what was causing it. And 17 he -- Jim Popham felt like it was the toluene in the ink that 18 was causing it. 19 Q. Did you ever hear or know from talking with 20 Mr. Wesbecker of anything that he did with regard to the 21 chemicals, sir? 22 A. No. He never talked to me about that. 23 Q. Thank you, sir. Those are all the questions I 24 have. 25 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith. 198 1 EXAMINATION ___________ 2 3 BY_MR._SMITH: __ ___ ______ 4 Q. Mr. Metten, in connection with the relationship 5 between Mr. Wesbecker and Doctor Beasley, as I understand it, 6 Mr. Wesbecker's concern was that Doctor Beasley wasn't paying 7 child support as he had been ordered to? 8 A. That's right. The child support payments were 9 -- the checks were made out by my ex-wife, and he was 10 complaining to me that she was not signing the checks, she was 11 not putting the amount down on the checks, and they were being 12 transferred back and forth, back and forth before he would 13 ever get payment on them. 14 Q. Okay. So his concern was because his current 15 wife, Ms. Camp, wasn't getting the child support that a judge 16 had ordered that Doctor Beasley pay? 17 A. Right. 18 Q. And what Mr. Wesbecker was doing was checking up 19 on Doctor Beasley to see whether or not he indeed had the 20 financial assets to pay the child support, Number One; 21 correct? 22 A. Yes. He knew he had the assets to pay. 23 Q. And, Number Two, he was trying to make some 24 determination to find out why the child support wasn't being 25 paid, wasn't he? 199 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. To assist his wife, Ms. Camp, in getting what a 3 judge had said this doctor rightly owed to Ms. Camp; right? 4 A. Yes. Yes. That's the way it was. 5 Q. And you were sympathetic to Mr. Wesbecker? 6 A. Yes. He come to me to -- he thought I was on 7 speaking terms and he thought maybe I could help him out on 8 that, and I told him I was not on speaking terms and there was 9 nothing I could do with it. 10 Q. And actually, Mr. Wesbecker, you don't know that 11 he was really stalking Doctor Beasley, it just appeared to you 12 that he had good information about what Doctor Beasley was 13 doing? 14 A. He had good information, plus he was following 15 him at times. 16 Q. Did he actually tell you he had followed him? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. All right. Now, did he ever tell you he 19 followed him with a gun? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Did he ever tell you he was going to blow his 22 head off? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Did he ever make any threats in connection with 25 doing anything violent to Doctor Beasley? 200 1 A. He didn't make them kind of threats. The 2 threats he made, he was talking about turning him in to the 3 Internal Revenue people, the county attorney and things like 4 that. 5 Q. Again, his concern was that the children that 6 were in his house that were the children of the woman he 7 married weren't getting the child support that they deserved? 8 A. Right. 9 Q. You agreed that that's something that those 10 children should have, didn't you, sir? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Now, you didn't take the threat against Mr. Shea 13 that Mr. Wesbecker had issued as being serious, did you? 14 A. No. 15 Q. You didn't take the threat that Mr. Wesbecker 16 had issued against Mr. Popham as being serious, did you? 17 A. No. 18 Q. You didn't take the threat, supposedly that you 19 overheard, if it could be characterized as a threat, against 20 Mr. Stein as being serious? 21 A. No. Not in the state that it turned out, no. I 22 just thought it was something he would handle another way or 23 something. 24 Q. And you didn't think that Joe Wesbecker was 25 going to shoot John Stein in the head, did you? 201 1 A. No. 2 Q. This was, in all fairness, what, five years 3 before September 14th, 1989? 4 A. Yeah, something like that. The last time I seen 5 Wesbecker was probably right before he went on disability, and 6 I never seen him after that, that I can recall. And I hadn't 7 seen him after that, and I asked the foreman where he was at 8 because I hadn't seen him around, and he just told me he was 9 on disability. 10 Q. All right. And you never considered Joseph 11 Wesbecker as being a bad actor or a tough guy there at the 12 plant, did you? 13 A. No, not to me. He never appeared to me when I 14 talked to him that... 15 Q. I assume you were surprised when you heard that 16 Joseph Wesbecker was the man that committed this tragedy? 17 A. Yes, I was. Because we had walked a fellow out 18 the night before that had threatened, and when I was driving 19 up Chestnut Street when this was going on I thought that's who 20 it was. 21 Q. Somebody other than Joseph Wesbecker? 22 A. Yes. I was really surprised when they told me 23 who it was. 24 Q. Why? 25 A. Because I never thought of him as that sort of a 202 1 fellow and that. You know, you get mad at things, you make 2 idle threats, and I just never paid any attention to him with 3 that. 4 Q. Because you saw a lot of good things about 5 Joseph Wesbecker? 6 A. Yeah. I liked Joe. 7 Q. And didn't consider him to be the type of person 8 that would commit this type of act? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Now, the John Stein that you're talking about 11 that this threat was directed against, is this the John Stein 12 that's the plaintiff in this case? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. You recognize him? You know John? 15 A. Yes. I know John. 16 Q. You say on Page 45 of your deposition, you were 17 asked on Line 13 the question: "Have you fixed in your mind 18 any better about when this incident occurred with Joe 19 Wesbecker and John Stein?" 20 Your answer then was: "See, they moved John 21 Stein. I'm trying to think when they made John Stein a 22 finishing foreman. They made John a finishing foreman about 23 eight months before the place closed, eight or nine months. 24 And he was downstairs then. It was right before he came 25 upstairs." 203 1 A. Right. 2 Q. Are you talking about the place closing in 3 February of '92? 4 A. That's why I can't get the dates straightened 5 out. I can't remember when we -- the foreman was removed from 6 upstairs and then John -- they brought John into that job, but 7 he was in shipping most of the time, and this situation 8 happened when he was in shipping, whenever that was. 9 Q. Well, you understand that John Stein sustained a 10 tragic, tragic brain injury in this? 11 A. Yes. Yes. 12 Q. And has never been able to return to work? 13 A. Right. 14 Q. Okay. So, I got the impression from reading 15 that that you might have thought he had been back at work a 16 few months before they closed. 17 A. No. No. I'm trying to think if he come 18 upstairs in '88 or -- the middle of '88 or '89 before the 19 shooting. He came upstairs right before the shooting because 20 he was the supervisor that I would come in and relieve at 1:00 21 in the afternoon. 22 Q. Okay. And this incident between Mr. Wesbecker 23 was words that had occurred several months or years before 24 this shooting? 25 A. I would say probably eight, ten months before. 204 1 Q. All right. And, again, you didn't take that 2 conversation they had as being some type of violent 3 conversation at all? 4 A. No. No. 5 Q. Just talk between a couple of guys? 6 A. Yeah. You get upset with somebody and you'd say 7 I'll take care of this later or I'll do something later or 8 something and you just don't pay any attention in there. 9 Q. They weren't mad at each other? 10 A. No. Because he turned around and continued to 11 talk -- Joe continued to talk to me after that. 12 Q. All right. Thank you, Mr. Metten. Appreciate 13 it. 14 MR. STOPHER: That's all, Your Honor. 15 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much. You may 16 step down; you're excused. 17 Mr. Stopher, do you want to call your next 18 witness? 19 MR. STOPHER: Yes, Your Honor. Mr. Stover -- 20 Mr. Charles Miller. I apologize. I got the wrong list. 21 JUDGE POTTER: Got to listen to your handler 22 there. 23 MR. STOPHER: Got to listen to my handler; 24 right, sir. 25 JUDGE POTTER: Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, 205 1 let me ask you something. I have something I normally do on 2 Monday morning at 8:30, that's why we start at 9:30 on 3 Mondays, and by complicated machinations which I won't go 4 through with you, it's not going to happen next Monday. What 5 I thought, I'd bring you in Monday at 9:00 -- I won't make you 6 lose your half hour. We'll come in Monday at 9:00 and Tuesday 7 at 9:30 and that will let you vote, if you want to. Is that 8 going to cause anybody any problems? I'll remind you again 9 tomorrow afternoon, but okay. 10 Sir, would you step up here and raise your right 11 hand, please. 12 13 CHARLES MILLER, after first being duly sworn, 14 was examined and testified as follows: 15 16 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Would you walk around over 17 here and take a seat in the witness box my sheriff is going to 18 indicate to you. Would you state your name very loudly for 19 the jury and then spell it for me, please. 20 MR. MILLER: Charles W. Miller. C-H-A-R-L-E-S, 21 M-I-L-L-E-R. 22 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. And keep your voice up and 23 answer Mr. Stopher's questions. 24 25 206 1 EXAMINATION ___________ 2 3 BY_MR._STOPHER: __ ___ _______ 4 Q. Mr. Miller, where do you live, sir? 5 A. 3331 Paoli Pike, Floyd Knobs, Indiana. 6 Q. And how old are you? 7 A. Forty-eight. 8 Q. By whom are you employed, sir? 9 A. Lawson Mardon. 10 Q. And about how long have you worked there, sir? 11 A. Two years. 12 Q. Prior to that did you work at Standard Gravure? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. My understanding is you started in about 1964? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. And stopped when, sir? 17 A. When the place closed. 18 Q. February 4, 1992? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Mr. Miller, during those years did you work in 21 the pressroom? 22 A. Yes, I did. 23 Q. And were you ever a foreman or an acting foreman 24 there, sir? 25 A. Yes, sir. 207 1 Q. Were you one or the other or both? 2 A. Acting foreman. 3 Q. Acting foreman? 4 A. Uh-huh. 5 Q. Which I think is a substitute-type position? 6 A. Right. 7 Q. Mr. Miller, did you know Joe Wesbecker at 8 Standard Gravure? 9 A. Yes, I did. 10 Q. And did you know him before he had a divorce 11 from his first wife, sir? 12 A. Yes, sir; I did. 13 Q. Did you know him when he was going through that 14 divorce and after that divorce? 15 A. Yes, I did. 16 Q. What do you recall about him and that divorce 17 process, sir? 18 A. Well, it's probably like anyone going through a 19 divorce, it's very traumatic and emotional. We were working a 20 lot at the time and it was probably just another extra burden 21 to put on someone trying to support his family. 22 Q. And did he talk about what she was going to get 23 or what she was not going to get? 24 A. He did make one comment that he had spent 25 $10,000 in lawyers' fees and court costs, whatsoever, and he 208 1 was going to make sure she didn't get anything. 2 Q. Did he ever -- was he the kind of person that 3 would forgive and forget? 4 A. No. 5 Q. What was he like, sir? 6 A. He remembered things that I guess pretty well, 7 if someone did something to him he'd try to get even. 8 Q. Was he a forgiving person or a vindictive 9 person? 10 A. I wouldn't really say he was over vindictive, 11 but he didn't forget. If someone played a joke on him, he 12 remembered it and he tried to get even with the person that 13 played the joke on him. 14 Q. Did you observe him work the folder, sir? 15 A. Yes, I did. 16 Q. How did he do on that job? 17 A. He was quite nervous. It's a lot of stress and, 18 you know, you're responsible for the finished product and 19 that's what the people look at is the finished product, and 20 there's a lot of things going on at one time and he was trying 21 to -- he spent too much time on one certain area. 22 Q. What do you mean he spent too much time on one 23 certain area? 24 A. If your register was out, he would just look at 25 the register; if you folder was off, he'd run up to the 209 1 folder; if your ribbon was out, if the angle bar was out, you 2 know, he would just look at one thing at a time. He couldn't 3 do a lot at once. 4 Q. And what happened if he would just look at one 5 thing at a time? 6 A. Well, you were running spoils. 7 Q. What does that mean? 8 A. Bad product, waste, however you want to describe 9 it. 10 Q. If you took too long fixing one thing, something 11 else would go out; is that right? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Did he ever do a good enough job to suit himself 14 on that position, sir? 15 MS. ZETTLER: Objection. Calls for speculation. 16 JUDGE POTTER: If you know, sir. 17 A. Only he could judge that. I couldn't judge for 18 him if he was happy with what he did. He seemed to take a lot 19 of pride in what he did and he wanted to do a good enough job, 20 but he never really seemed like he was doing a good enough 21 job, if that's a good enough answer. 22 Q. Did the work assignments there, sir, were they 23 given out by the foremen? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Was that done equally? 210 1 A. That's a matter of opinion. 2 Q. What's your opinion, sir? 3 A. I think in the most part, yes. 4 Q. And in the minor part, what? 5 A. No. 6 Q. What was unequal about it? 7 A. Well, sometimes if someone had worked there and 8 they had a chance of getting off early and they might work on 9 their crew, if a certain press was running through lunch at 10 the time, they got compensated for hourly pay for working 11 through lunch, they would work on that particular press, just 12 little things like that. 13 Q. Did anybody ever play favorites? 14 A. No, not to a great degree. I mean, it's always 15 going to happen with that many people, but I won't say they 16 went out of their way to play favorites, no. 17 Q. Did you ever hear that Joe Wesbecker wanted to 18 get off of the folder, sir? 19 A. Yes. I have heard that. 20 MS. ZETTLER: Objection. Leading. Your Honor, 21 could we be heard for a second? 22 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. 23 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 24 MS. ZETTLER: Your Honor, this is like the tenth 25 time we've heard about he didn't want to work on the folder. 211 1 This is getting to the point of being ridiculous. 2 MR. STOPHER: I don't want to dwell on it; I 3 just want to move on, and then she objects to the leading. 4 JUDGE POTTER: What is this going to add to the 5 file? 6 MR. STOPHER: I just want to move from that to 7 his change in attitude; it's just that simple. It's just a 8 few questions. It's no big deal. 9 JUDGE POTTER: Objection is overruled. 10 MR. STOPHER: Thank you. 11 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 12 Q. Did you hear, sir, that Mr. Wesbecker had some 13 problem and wanted to get off of the folder? 14 A. I heard that, yes. 15 Q. Did the -- were there men in the pressroom, sir, 16 that had mental difficulties? 17 MS. ZETTLER: Objection. Calls for an opinion. 18 Calls for speculation. 19 MR. STOPHER: If you know, sir. 20 JUDGE POTTER: If you know. 21 A. Yes, there was other people there. Yes. 22 Q. How were they treated, sir? 23 A. Lightly. They were really weren't requested to 24 do a great deal of work. A lot of burden wasn't put on them. 25 Whatever they did they seemed happy with it, the management, 212 1 I'm saying. Just kind of get-through-the-night-and-don't- 2 worry-about-it-type thing. 3 Q. Was Joe Wesbecker treated that way? 4 A. Well, I don't really know for sure how he was 5 treated, sir. 6 Q. Have you made the statement, sir, that the 7 attitude was, "He's crazy, leave him alone"? 8 MS. ZETTLER: Objection. 9 JUDGE POTTER: Overruled. 10 A. Repeat that? 11 Q. Have you made the statement that the atmosphere 12 was, quote, he's crazy, leave him alone? 13 A. Have I made that statement? 14 Q. Yes, sir. 15 A. No, sir. 16 Q. Did you hear that made? 17 A. I've heard people say that about a lot of people 18 there, sir. 19 Q. Including Joe Wesbecker? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Mr. Miller, while you worked there, were guns 22 prohibited? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Was that enforced? 25 A. I've never seen anyone turned away. I can't say 213 1 that I've seen people bring them in, either. 2 Q. Do you have information, sir, about what 3 percentage or numbers of people would bring guns into Standard 4 Gravure while you worked there? 5 A. Well, at the time, I think, when the riots were 6 going on, back -- this is years ago, that there was quite a 7 few of them brought in just for personal safety. As far as 8 percentages, maybe 10 or 20 percent of the people. I don't 9 know. I do know there was a lot of people carrying them. 10 Q. Ten to twenty percent? 11 A. Yeah. 12 Q. Was anybody ever fired or disciplined or in any 13 way reprimanded for bringing weapons into the place of work? 14 A. No, sir. 15 Q. Ever? 16 A. Not to my knowledge. 17 Q. Mr. Miller, was there security at Standard 18 Gravure? 19 A. Yes, sir; there was. 20 Q. And was there security at all the entrances to 21 Standard Gravure? 22 A. To the best of my knowledge, yes. 23 Q. Were there guards at all the entrances? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Including the Sixth Street entrance? 214 1 A. I never used that, so I don't know. 2 Q. Was there ever an emergency evacuation system 3 with a P.A. or loudspeaker? 4 A. When we had a tornado that one year, the P.A. 5 system went off. Usually if there was a fire alarm you'd hear 6 the fire alarm in the plant itself, and then you knew what to 7 do because we had routes that we would take and meet certain 8 places. 9 Q. Were there evacuation routes for emergencies or 10 danger other than fires? 11 A. There was one for the tornado; they had us go 12 down in the basement in The Courier building. 13 Q. And for a tornado was there an announcement made 14 over a P.A. system or a loudspeaker system? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. Do you know if that was operational, sir, on 17 September 14, 1989? 18 A. I do not know that. 19 Q. Do you know where the controls were for that 20 P.A. system? 21 A. No, sir. 22 Q. Did you know how to get an announcement made on 23 that P.A. system? 24 A. No, sir. 25 Q. Mr. Metten -- 215 1 MS. ZETTLER: Miller. 2 MR. STOPHER: Excuse me. Miller. I'm going to 3 get it confused again. 4 Mr. Miller, in connection with Joseph Wesbecker, 5 did you ever see him with a gun, sir? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Did you ever hear him talk about guns? 8 A. No. When he got into guns I think he had 9 changed shifts, and there was a lot of people on day work that 10 did a lot of target shooting and talked about guns. I assume 11 that's when all that took place. 12 Q. Mr. Wesbecker left on disability; correct, sir? 13 A. To my understanding, yes. 14 Q. Did you ever have an occasion to see him after 15 he was on disability? 16 A. No, sir. 17 Q. That's all I have, sir. Thank you. 18 JUDGE POTTER: Ms. Zettler. 19 20 EXAMINATION ___________ 21 22 BY_MS._ZETTLER: __ ___ _______ 23 Q. Mr. Miller, you've never seen Joseph Wesbecker 24 get in a fight, have you? 25 A. No, ma'am. 216 1 Q. And earlier when Mr. Stopher was questioning 2 you, you said that when people would play pranks on Mr. 3 Wesbecker he would say, "I want to get even." Correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. That was really kind of the attitude down there, 6 wasn't it, though, -- 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. -- people would play practical jokes against 9 each other? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. There was nothing out of the ordinary about Joe 12 Wesbecker saying, "I'm going to get back at them for playing 13 this joke on me"? 14 A. That's correct. It was playful-type things. 15 Q. He wasn't angry? 16 A. There was a few instances about certain things 17 that he did get angry, yes. 18 Q. Okay. Did he ever hit anybody over that? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Did he ever do any violence towards some worker? 21 A. I've never seen him, no. 22 Q. Do you know if he even got back at them with 23 another practical joke in those instances? 24 A. No. 25 Q. The majority of the time he would just be 217 1 playful and want to get back at them when they got him? 2 A. Right. 3 Q. I think one example you said somebody put some 4 ink into a cone -- 5 A. Right. 6 Q. And somebody said he had a phone call and he put 7 it up to his ear and ended up getting covered with ink; right? 8 A. Right. 9 Q. Did he get mad about that? 10 A. You always get mad when someone does it to you, 11 but, you know, you don't get mad-mad, just upset. 12 Q. He didn't storm out of the room? 13 A. No. 14 Q. He didn't hit anybody? 15 A. No. 16 Q. He was aggravated because he had an ear full of 17 ink; right? 18 A. It was a joke, yes. Right. 19 Q. He used to play basketball and racquetball with 20 you, didn't he? 21 A. Yes, he did. 22 Q. Down at the Media Mix, is it called? 23 A. Uh-huh. 24 Q. And that was really during the time that he was 25 going through his first divorce, wasn't it? 218 1 A. I'm not sure when it was. 2 Q. Early '80s? 3 A. Late '70s, for sure. Maybe not in the '80s, but 4 late '70s for sure. 5 Q. '78, '79? 6 A. Something like that. 7 Q. And you used to organize, I guess, the pickup 8 games in basketball? 9 A. Well, I would go down a lot, and a lot of people 10 started coming down because -- you know, it's something to do 11 after work to get rid of your tension. 12 Q. That was like 1:00 in the morning sometimes; 13 right? 14 A. Right. They were open all night. 15 Q. And a group of you guys, including Joe, would go 16 down there and either organize little racquetball tournaments 17 or pickup basketball games? 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. Did he ever get in a fight with anybody that you 20 saw down there? 21 A. No. No. 22 Q. Did he ever get in an argument with anybody, 23 that you recall? 24 A. No. 25 Q. He seemed to have a good time? 219 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Just one of the guys? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. That's all I have. 5 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much, sir. You 6 may step down; you're excused. 7 MR. STOPHER: I think, Your Honor, probably this 8 is a good stopping point. 9 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Ladies and gentlemen of 10 the jury, we're going to take the evening recess. As I've 11 mentioned to you-all before, do not permit anybody to speak to 12 or communicate with you on any topic connected with this 13 trial; that includes getting any information about it on any 14 topic from the newspaper or friends or radio or whatever. Do 15 not discuss it among yourselves and do not form or express 16 opinions about it. We'll stand in recess till 9:00 tomorrow 17 morning, and tomorrow will be kind of a half day, like Friday 18 has normally been. Okay? 19 (JURORS EXCUSED; HEARING IN CHAMBERS) 20 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith, you indicated there 21 was something we needed to talk about. 22 MR. SMITH: I wanted to get from Mr. Stopher, we 23 still have the Thursday lineup of Throneberry, Sowders, Bryan, 24 South Central Bell and the water company? 25 MR. STOPHER: Yeah. One of the utility people 220 1 is out of town this week, so it will just be one of them. 2 MS. ZETTLER: Which one? 3 MR. STOPHER: I forget which one it is. 4 MR. SMITH: It doesn't make any difference. 5 MS. ZETTLER: Are you planning on doing all four 6 of them tomorrow, though? 7 MR. STOPHER: I'm going to try to. Throneberry 8 is probably going to take awhile. 9 JUDGE POTTER: What happened to Stover and 10 Chastain? 11 MR. STOPHER: I don't think I can get them on 12 tomorrow, but probably early next week. 13 MS. ZETTLER: Judge -- I know. 14 MR. SMITH: Let me finish. 15 We're having a little in-fighting. 16 MS. ZETTLER: It's time to go home is my 17 question. Judge, I want to get on the 2:00 flight tomorrow in 18 a big way. 19 JUDGE POTTER: You will make your 2:00. Let's 20 plan on 1:00 we'll be out of there. 21 Is the Highlands calling you or Atlanta? 22 MR. FREEMAN: Atlanta. 23 MR. SMITH: Since this is Wednesday and we're 24 going to have Thursday and we're not going to be here and 25 we're going to be dashing out tomorrow, can we get a list for 221 1 Monday? 2 MR. STOPHER: Sure. I'll give you Monday and 3 Tuesday. 4 Judge, in connection with that, I do need the 5 depositions of Shea and McCall, which have been out now -- 6 MS. ZETTLER: I have not gotten McCall. I'll 7 double-check when I get -- I don't know what happened. 8 MR. MYERS: We've received the returned fax. 9 MS. ZETTLER: They sent me a fax. I'm not 10 saying you didn't fax it, but I don't have it, so I can't read 11 it even if you sent it. I'll need another copy, is what I'm 12 saying. 13 MR. STOPHER: So I'd like to get those two as 14 quickly as possible, Judge, because I'd like to use one -- 15 JUDGE POTTER: Is McCall video? 16 MR. STOPHER: Yes, sir. They're both video. 17 JUDGE POTTER: That was the one that went back 18 for a trial video? You took a big deposition and then -- 19 MR. STOPHER: They are trial depositions on both 20 of them and those are the ones that we want to use, so if we 21 can get that cooking. 22 MS. ZETTLER: The trial deposition was two 23 hundred pages or ore. You've got only two hours designated 24 for Shea? 25 MR. STOPHER: It's two hours and a half or three 222 1 hours, something like that for Shea. 2 JUDGE POTTER: They can use anything they want. 3 It was my impression that they went back and took the 4 deposition of some of these people with a more specific idea. 5 MS. ZETTLER: I think it was with the specific 6 representation that that's what was going to be used at trial, 7 if anything. 8 MR. STOPHER: And that's what's going to be 9 used. 10 MS. ZETTLER: Do we have dates on those? 11 MR. MYERS: It's on the designation. 12 MR. SMITH: But I still don't have Monday or 13 Tuesday's list of witnesses. 14 MR. STOPHER: I'll give them to you tomorrow. I 15 thought that's what you wanted. 16 MR. SMITH: You don't have them with you now? 17 MR. STOPHER: No. I've got today's and 18 tomorrow's. 19 MS. ZETTLER: Can we get that in the morning if 20 we're quitting at one, because we're going to have to get that 21 stuff together to take it home? 22 MR. STOPHER: Sure. 23 MR. SMITH: You don't want to send us back to 24 Dallas with just dirty clothes, do you? 25 MR. STOPHER: Nancy, I want to read or show 223 1 McCall on Monday. 2 MS. ZETTLER: I don't know how you're going to 3 be able to do that since I'm leaving town tomorrow. We have 4 to talk to the Judge about the deposition; I haven't gotten 5 McCall yet. I don't know what happened; I haven't gotten it 6 yet. I just can't do it. 7 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. We'll take that up 8 tomorrow. Mr. Stopher, you may have to work around that. 9 MR. STOPHER: I'd like to do that Monday, or 10 Tuesday at the absolutely latest. 11 MS. ZETTLER: That's a possibility. I could fax 12 you from my house on Saturday my objections to that, then we 13 can meet with the Judge Monday morning. 14 (PROCEEDINGS TERMINATED THIS DATE AT 4:55 P.M.) 15 * * * 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 224 1 STATE OF KENTUCKY )( )( Sct. 2 COUNTY OF JEFFERSON )( 3 I, JULIA K. McBRIDE, Notary Public, State of 4 Kentucky at Large, hereby certify that the foregoing 5 Transcript of the Proceedings was taken at the time and place 6 stated in the caption; that the appearances were as set forth 7 in the caption; that prior to giving testimony the witnesses 8 were first duly sworn; that said testimony was taken down by 9 me in stenographic notes and thereafter reduced under my 10 supervision to the foregoing typewritten pages and that said 11 typewritten transcript is a true, accurate and complete record 12 of my stenographic notes so taken. 13 I further certify that I am not related by blood 14 or marriage to any of the parties hereto and that I have no 15 interest in the outcome of captioned case. 16 My commission as Notary Public expires 17 December 21, 1996. 18 Given under my hand this the__________day of 19 ______________________, 1994, at Louisville, Kentucky. 20 21 22 23 24 _____________________________ 25 NOTARY PUBLIC 225 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25