1 1 NO. 90-CI-06033 JEFFERSON CIRCUIT COURT DIVISION ONE 2 3 4 JOYCE FENTRESS, et al PLAINTIFFS 5 6 VS TRANSCRIPT_OF_THE_PROCEEDINGS __________ __ ___ ___________ 7 8 9 SHEA COMMUNICATIONS, et al DEFENDANTS 10 11 * * * 12 13 14 WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 2, 1994 15 VOLUME XXVIII 16 17 * * * 18 19 20 21 _____________________________________________________________ REPORTER: JULIA K. McBRIDE 22 Coulter, Shay, McBride & Rice 1221 Starks Building 23 455 South Fourth Avenue Louisville, Kentucky 40202 24 (502) 582-1627 FAX: (502) 587-6299 25 2 1 I_N_D_E_X _ _ _ _ _ 2 WITNESS: DONALD_FRAZIER _______ ______ _______ 3 By Mr. Stopher........................................... 5 By Mr. Smith............................................. 36 4 WITNESS: JAMES_LUCAS _______ _____ _____ 5 By Mr. Stopher........................................... 70 6 By Mr. Smith.............................................136 By Mr. Stopher...........................................169 7 WITNESS: GERALD_GRIFFIN _______ ______ _______ 8 By Mr. Stopher...........................................176 9 By Ms. Zettler...........................................182 By Mr. Stopher...........................................186 10 WITNESS: CHARLES_METTEN _______ _______ ______ 11 By Mr. Stopher...........................................188 12 By Mr. Smith.............................................198 13 WITNESS: CHARLES_MILLER _______ _______ ______ 14 By Mr. Stopher...........................................206 By Ms. Zettler...........................................215 15 * * * 16 Hearing in Chambers......................................219 17 Reporter's Certificate...................................224 18 * * * 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 1 2 A_P_P_E_A_R_A_N_C_E_S _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 3 4 FOR THE PLAINTIFFS: 5 PAUL L. SMITH Suite 745 6 Campbell Center II 8150 North Central Expressway 7 Dallas, Texas 75206 8 NANCY ZETTLER 1405 West Norwell Lane 9 Schaumburg, Illinois 60193 10 IRVIN D. FOLEY Rubin, Hays & Foley 11 300 South, First Trust Centre Louisville, Kentucky 40202 12 13 FOR THE DEFENDANT: 14 EDWARD H. STOPHER Boehl, Stopher & Graves 15 2300 Providian Center Louisville, Kentucky 40202 16 JOE C. FREEMAN, JR. 17 LAWRENCE J. MYERS Freeman & Hawkins 18 4000 One Peachtree Center 303 Peachtree Street, N.E. 19 Atlanta, Georgia 30308 20 * * * 21 22 23 24 25 4 1 The Transcript of the Proceedings, taken before 2 The Honorable John Potter in the Multipurpose Courtroom, Old 3 Jail Office Building, Louisville, Kentucky, commencing on 4 Wednesday, November 2, 1994, at approximately 9:05 A.M., said 5 proceedings occurred as follows: 6 7 * * * 8 9 SHERIFF CECIL: All rise. The Honorable Judge 10 John Potter is now presiding. All jurors are present. Court 11 is now in session. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Please be seated. Ladies and 13 gentlemen of the jury, have any of you-all had any difficulty 14 observing my admonition about not getting information except 15 from the witness stand? 16 Ms. Morrison, have you had any problems? 17 JUROR MORRISON: No, sir; I haven't. 18 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Thank you very much. 19 Mr. Stopher, do you want to call your first 20 witness of today. 21 MR. STOPHER: Thank you, Judge. Donald Frazier. 22 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Frazier, could I get you to 23 step up here and raise your right hand, please. 24 25 5 1 DONALD FRAZIER, after first being duly sworn, 2 was examined and testified as follows: 3 4 JUDGE POTTER: Would you take a walk around 5 there, have a seat in the jury box (sic), state your name loud 6 and clearly for us and then spell it. 7 MR. FRAZIER: My name is Donald Edward Frazier, 8 F-R-A-Z-I-E-R. 9 JUDGE POTTER: F-R-A-C? 10 MR. FRAZIER: Z, sir, as in zebra. 11 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. If you'll answer Mr. 12 Stopher's questions. 13 14 EXAMINATION ___________ 15 16 BY_MR._STOPHER: __ ___ _______ 17 Q. Mr. Frazier, the real microphone is the one 18 that's on the table in front of you, the little brown one. 19 That's the one that picks up your voice in here, sir, and not 20 the one on the mike stand, so if you'll try to keep that in 21 mind. 22 Where do you presently live, Mr. Frazier? 23 A. 5316 Tahia Drive, Louisville, Kentucky 40216. 24 Q. And how old are you? 25 A. Fifty-seven, sir. 6 1 Q. And by whom are you employed, sir? 2 A. Philip Morris. 3 Q. And prior to working for Philip Morris where did 4 you work, sir? 5 A. Standard Gravure Corporation. 6 Q. And when did you start there, Mr. Frazier? 7 A. I believe it was in 1958. 8 Q. And when did you stop working at Standard 9 Gravure? 10 A. I believe it was January of '92, wasn't it? 11 Q. Was it about the time that the plant closed, 12 sir? 13 A. Yes, sir; it was. 14 Q. My understanding is that the plant closed on 15 February 4, 1992. That was the last day of operation. Does 16 that ring a bell with you? 17 A. Yes, sir. January was -- the last of January 18 was just the way my off days fell. 19 Q. I understand. Mr. Frazier, during those years, 20 which is about 38 years, I believe, if my math is right? 21 A. Thirty-three and a half, I believe. 22 Q. Thirty-three and a half. Did you work in the 23 pressroom? 24 A. I did. 25 Q. Would you briefly describe for us what jobs you 7 1 held there, sir. 2 A. I started in the pressroom as a fly-man, which 3 is the entry-level job. In about a year and a half I moved up 4 to the apprentice category, served five years in the 5 apprentice. After that I became a journeyman, served as a 6 journeyman for the rest of my time there. Worked what we call 7 the reel man, the ink man, the second man in charge, first man 8 in charge, folder man, and I served in various capacities with 9 the union throughout my journeyman career. 10 Q. Which union was that, sir? 11 A. Local No. 19, Graphic Communications 12 International Union. 13 Q. And what sorts of positions did you hold with 14 the union, sir? 15 A. I was assistant chairman, chairman, -- which is 16 the same thing as a union steward -- vice-president, chairman 17 of the executive board, and I was president for several terms. 18 Q. Did all of the pressmen at Standard Gravure 19 belong to the union, sir? 20 A. They did. 21 Q. Including Joe Wesbecker? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. Mr. Frazier, let me direct your attention back 24 now, sir, to the early 1970s. You were employed at Standard 25 Gravure and were in the pressroom at that time; correct? 8 1 A. That's correct. 2 Q. Did you come to know Joseph Wesbecker about that 3 time, sir? 4 A. Yes, I did. 5 Q. Would you tell us what you recall about him in 6 those early days in the early 1970s? 7 A. He seemed to be a rather nice guy, a good 8 pressman, hard worker. He worked a lot of overtime. I got 9 along with him well. I considered him a casual friend. 10 Q. Did you ever have any connections with him of a 11 social nature outside the plant, sir, in those days? 12 A. From time to time. Very -- very casual social 13 relations. 14 Q. Mostly it was on the job, sir? 15 A. Yes, sir; it was. 16 Q. And with regard to the jobs there, sir, in the 17 pressroom and particularly the press crews, I think you told 18 us that you worked virtually every position during your 19 thirty-three and a half years there; right? 20 A. That's correct. 21 Q. Let me ask you just a few things about the 22 mechanics of the way the pressroom worked. Were all pressmen 23 trained the same way, sir? 24 A. Basically, yes. 25 Q. And the training included I think you told us 9 1 being a fly-man or a fly-boy? 2 A. Yes. That's correct. 3 Q. And then what would be the next stage after 4 that, sir? 5 A. Your apprenticeship for five years. I believe 6 now it's four years, or later on it became four years, but it 7 was five. 8 Q. And after the apprenticeship was completed, were 9 you then a journeyman? 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. What was a journeyman trained and qualified to 12 do? 13 A. Every position on the press. 14 Q. Including being the man in charge or the folder 15 operator? 16 A. Yes, sir. That was required. 17 Q. Was that required of just some people or was it 18 required of all pressmen? 19 A. Well, it was only required of some people 20 because you only have one pressman in charge per press and you 21 might have ten journeymen on a press. 22 Q. But in terms of training and experience and 23 ability to work it, was there any difference between the 24 pressmen? 25 A. Well, in the sense that some pressmen were 10 1 better than other pressmen, yes. 2 Q. And would those be the pressmen that the foreman 3 would want to put on that position? 4 A. Oh, absolutely. 5 Q. Was there anyone, sir, who because of their 6 training or their experience was exempt from working the 7 folder or being a man in charge or the second man in charge? 8 A. From time to time there was. 9 Q. And would those be instances involving health or 10 disability and that sort of thing? 11 A. Generally speaking, yes. 12 Q. But as a group, sir, if I understand correctly, 13 the setup was all pressmen were trained the same? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. All pressmen had been trained to operate the 16 press in all the different positions that you described for us 17 and that you worked in; am I understanding it correctly? 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. Mr. Frazier, with regard to the first man in 20 charge and the second man in charge, was there a pay 21 difference between those two jobs and the other jobs on the 22 press? 23 A. Yes, there was. 24 Q. What was it in the early years? 25 A. As I recall, the second pressman got $2 a shift, 11 1 which would have been $10 a week; and the first pressman got 2 $3 a shift, $15 a week. 3 Q. More than what they would have made if they had 4 been working the inks or the reels? 5 A. Above the journeyman scale; yes sir. 6 Q. In the later years, in the 1980s, sir, what was 7 the pay difference between being the folder operator or the 8 first man in charge and second man in charge and the other 9 jobs? 10 A. I wasn't working the folder at that time and I 11 have difficulty remembering. I think it went up to about $6 12 and $5; that's just vague remembrance. 13 Q. Five dollars per shift? 14 A. Yes. And six dollars. I believe that's what it 15 was. 16 Q. So that would be about sixty cents an hour more? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. Now, sir, let me direct your attention now to 19 the 1980s. Were you also working with Joseph Wesbecker in the 20 1980s, sir? 21 A. Off and on I was, sir. Joe and I didn't work on 22 the same shift. I worked day work mostly and Joe mostly 23 worked on the night side. But when he worked overtime or I 24 worked overtime, yes, sir, I worked with him. 25 Q. What about after the period when Mike Shea 12 1 became the owner, did you work some with him then? 2 A. Yes, sir. Just as I said before. 3 Q. Same situation? 4 A. Same circumstances. 5 Q. Mr. Frazier, after Mr. Shea purchased the 6 company, were things the same? 7 A. Absolutely not. 8 Q. Do you recall approximately when Mr. Shea became 9 the owner, sir? 10 A. Seemed to me it was about four years before we 11 shut down, approximately. 12 Q. My understanding it was in the summer of 1986. 13 A. That seems reasonable. I'm not real good on 14 dates. 15 Q. All right, sir. You mentioned that it was 16 different after Mr. Shea came in. How was it different, sir? 17 A. Well, under the Binghams who owned the company 18 previously, I would just have to say that they were more 19 interested in people and their employees rather than simply 20 making money. And after Mr. Shea took over, one of the first 21 things the man ever said to me was that he wasn't a benevolent 22 association nor a charitable organization and that he was 23 there to make money and he didn't much care what happened to 24 people; it was money he was interested in. 25 Q. After he said that to you, sir, did you observe 13 1 instances in which that kind of philosophy came to your 2 attention? 3 A. Absolutely. 4 Q. Can you tell us what kind of instances you saw 5 that sort of philosophy come out? 6 A. Well, he was a very hard bargainer when you 7 tried to talk to him about contracts or anything. One of the 8 first things that happened after he took over the company I 9 guess that points out his philosophy was that the Binghams 10 always gave the retirees a review for their pensions, and each 11 year according to the cost-of-living index they would give the 12 pensioners a small raise. This wasn't contractual, it wasn't 13 required of the company or the Binghams; it was just something 14 they did. 15 And after Mr. Shea took over the company, I went 16 into a meeting with him and sat down and I asked him if he was 17 going to continue that policy, and that was at the point that 18 he told me he was not a charitable organization or a 19 philanthropist or a benevolent person and that those people 20 had earned their money, and whatever their pension was was all 21 they were ever going to get out of him and he was never going 22 to give them another raise. So that's the type of attitude I 23 run into with him. 24 Q. You mentioned the pension. Did he take any 25 action with regard to the pension? 14 1 MR. SMITH: Your Honor -- may we approach the 2 bench, Your Honor? 3 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 4 MR. SMITH: Two things. Number One, any 5 comments like were earlier mentioned about what Mr. Shea said 6 in a meeting would be hearsay to the Plaintiffs here. 7 Secondly, we object to any discussion concerning the potential 8 change in pension benefits or the overfunding of the pension 9 plan and what happened to that as being immaterial and 10 irrelevant. There's no showing in this case that Joseph 11 Wesbecker knew of that, that that caused him any problems or 12 that that was in any way anything that contributed to the 13 events that occurred on September 14th, 1989. 14 MR. STOPHER: Mr. Stopher? 15 MR. STOPHER: Judge, it is relevant for the 16 following reasons: Number One, it relates to the hostility 17 that existed in the pressroom in general towards Mr. Shea and 18 it is clear that Mr. Shea was one of the individuals that Mr. 19 Wesbecker had great hostility toward. So anything that 20 relates to that hostility is relevant and should be admitted. 21 That's the purpose of doing this. It's already in evidence 22 many times. 23 MR. SMITH: Well, there's no way we can state 24 that Mr. Wesbecker was hostile toward Mr. Shea for any 25 particular reason. There's no evidence that Mr. Wesbecker was 15 1 mad because of any pension or anything of that nature. This 2 was solely an attempt to take the jury off the issue as to 3 what the stressors were on Mr. Wesbecker. 4 JUDGE POTTER: There are two things. One, at 5 some point the jury's going to be asked to determine whether 6 or not maybe Standard Gravure had some fault in this thing. 7 Second of all, I assume at some point Mr. Stopher is going to 8 ask this gentleman, not only did you hear this or feel this or 9 believe that this happened, did other people in the pressroom 10 have the same information and this guy's probably going to 11 answer yes. So I'm going to overrule the objection. 12 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 13 Q. The question was, Mr. Frazier, did Mr. Shea take 14 any action with regard to the pension plan? 15 A. Yes, sir. Later on, he -- I don't know what the 16 proper terminology is, but he sold or converted the pension 17 plan into a company out in California. There was various 18 amounts stated as to what he was able to siphon off. The 19 Binghams had always overfunded the plans and that's what they 20 used to give raises and so forth, or at least that's what they 21 told me in meetings, and he was able to restructure this 22 pension plan so that he had several million dollars that he 23 could get out to put in his own pocket. And he put it in a 24 company in California that was involved with junk bonds and 25 what have you, and we almost lost our pensions as a result of 16 1 that. 2 Q. Mr. Frazier, what effect, if any, did that have 3 on the morale of the men in the pressroom? 4 A. For a lot of us it made us very unhappy and very 5 bitter. 6 Q. Bitter toward whom, sir? 7 A. Towards Mr. Shea. 8 Q. Mr. Frazier, during the period of time that Mr. 9 Shea owned Standard Gravure, did the morale or the attitude in 10 the pressroom improve, remain the same or get worse? 11 A. Oh, definitely got worse. 12 Q. In what regard, sir? 13 A. Well, his continuing dealings with the people, 14 the pension plan issue, the fact that he just -- he didn't 15 want to cooperate with the employees in any way or the 16 retirees, and we just had problems after problems with him, 17 and the morale just degenerated under the man. He was a very, 18 very hard man, interested in a dollar and not interested in 19 people at all. 20 Q. Mr. Frazier, who was Don McCall? 21 A. He was Mr. Shea's hatchet man. Executive 22 vice-president, I think was his title. 23 Q. What was his philosophy or attitude in 24 management toward particularly the men in the pressroom? 25 A. Mr. McCall takes on the persona of the person 17 1 that employs him, and I worked with him under the Binghams and 2 he basically had the Bingham philosophy, and when Mr. Shea 3 took over, Mr. McCall became Mr. Shea's man and took on his 4 personality. 5 Q. Mr. Frazier, with regard to the operations in 6 the pressroom, the actual functioning of the presses 7 themselves, were there any changes in operations after Mr. 8 Shea purchased the company? 9 A. I believe the time frame escapes me after this 10 length of time but I think we had a manning reduction. I 11 think there were less people on the press to do the same 12 amount of work. 13 Q. Were there any changes in the speed of the 14 presses? 15 A. Yes, sir. They increased the speed almost 16 yearly. That was a goal, more production. 17 Q. What was the effect of increasing the speed on 18 the men in the pressroom? 19 A. Well, it creates a great deal more tension and 20 you have to pay more attention to detail. There's more web 21 breaks, more work. It's a tense -- is a tense situation. The 22 higher speeds, especially with the older presses that we had, 23 created a great deal of stress. 24 Q. How would the -- how would the changes in the 25 speed be communicated to the men that worked on the press? 18 1 How was that mechanically done? 2 A. If I understand you right, I think it comes 3 through the foreman. 4 Q. And how would they increase the speed? How 5 would that be done? 6 A. Well, they would what we call Rube Goldberg the 7 thing, put new bigger electrical motors on it so that it would 8 run faster, new bearings. They would give it a general 9 overhaul. As I said, they were very old presses and they just 10 did whatever they could to try to get a little more speed out 11 of them, and basically it didn't work too well. 12 Q. With regard to -- I assume that you -- somebody 13 would have to communicate that the presses were going to be 14 run faster? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. How would that be done? How would that 17 communication or that word be gotten out? 18 A. Well, it would be given from the foremen to the 19 men, and usually it was posted on the bulletin board. It was 20 given to you in written form and posted on each press. Each 21 press had a small bulletin board area and they would post it 22 there as to what the new running speed was going to be. 23 Q. What if the crew or a man in charge didn't meet 24 that running speed, what would happen? 25 A. Well, he would have a rather unpleasant time 19 1 with the people in the office. 2 Q. Who would, the man in charge or the second man 3 in charge or the whole crew? 4 A. Man in charge, basically. 5 Q. Mr. Frazier, let me turn back to Joseph 6 Wesbecker. Did you ever observe his relationship with the 7 foremen or the supervisors at Standard Gravure, and 8 particularly after Mr. Shea owned the company? 9 A. On occasion. 10 Q. Had it changed or was it the same as it had 11 been? 12 A. No, it had changed. 13 Q. Would you tell us how his attitude toward the 14 foremen or his relationship had changed? 15 A. Basically, as I said before, Joe used to be a 16 fairly easygoing guy and just what I call a regular person. 17 He became more antagonistic and I guess you would say 18 confrontational. That's about all I can say about it. 19 Q. What sorts of things did you observe that 20 indicated to you that he was antagonistic or confrontational? 21 A. Well, I was around when he had talked to foremen 22 that were not quite satisfied with the way the press was 23 running, and he would get very agitated and upset and speak in 24 a loud voice and use some language that I thought was rather 25 rough for using with a foreman. 20 1 Q. Did you observe this on more than one occasion 2 or just once or twice? 3 A. Oh, sure. Several times. A number of times. 4 Q. Was it any one particular foreman? 5 A. Well, basically he worked on the five-to-one 6 shift and it would be Bill McKeown and he had some 7 confrontations with Don Cox, as I recall. 8 Q. Did you ever hear him talk, sir, about the 9 pressure of working the folder? 10 A. Yes, sir. In the later -- towards the end of 11 the -- of his time there, yes. 12 Q. What sorts of things would he say in your 13 hearing about that kind of pressure? 14 A. Well, he said it was getting on his nerves. He 15 said it was making him really agitated. It was just upsetting 16 him a lot. He told me he was under treatment for nervous 17 disorders and that sort of thing. He was taking medication 18 and he went on and on about it on a number of occasions. 19 Q. Did he ever ask or seek any kind of relief? 20 A. Relief? 21 Q. Yes, sir. 22 A. From me? 23 Q. Well, sir, let's begin with you. First of all, 24 did he ask you to assist him in getting some kind of help? 25 A. Yes, sir; he did. 21 1 Q. What kind of help did he want, sir? 2 A. He wanted the union -- I was president of the 3 union at the time and he wanted the union's help in getting an 4 exemption from the folder. 5 Q. And did you agree to do that, sir? 6 A. I agreed, sir, to do what I could do for him. 7 Assigning positions on the press was contractually the 8 company's right and we had no contractual grounds to file a 9 formal grievance with the company insofar as assigning job 10 assignments on the press and Joe knew that, and I explained it 11 to him, as well as other officers in the union. But we agreed 12 to talk to the foremen, the superintendent, the -- well, Don 13 Cox -- I mean, Don McCall, Mike Shea, as best we could, if 14 they would listen to us, and try to help him just as a brother 15 member. But he understood that we couldn't just go in there 16 and demand that they take him off the folder. 17 Q. Did you yourself go to all those different 18 people and speak on his behalf? 19 A. I did. At various times; yes, sir. 20 Q. Mr. McCall, Mr. Cox, the foremen? 21 A. Yes. Mr. Shea. 22 Q. Mr. Shea, even? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. What was their position with regard to Mr. 25 Wesbecker's request to get off of or get an exemption from 22 1 working the folder? 2 A. Their response was very negative. We discussed 3 it -- I not only discussed it with them personally; we asked 4 that it -- in standing committee meetings if we could bring 5 the topic up, and they allowed it to be brought up and 6 discussed it collectively with other officers of the union 7 present, as well as myself and Mr. Shea, Mr. McCall and 8 whoever else happened to have been in there at the time with 9 him on the company side, and basically they just refused. 10 They said their reasons, which I never have to this day and 11 still don't understand why they didn't do it, they said that 12 they thought it would be setting a bad precedent, and that if 13 they were to do that for Joe that then other people would be 14 inclined to use his case as a precedent to get off the folder 15 whenever they wanted to. 16 But the union took the position, as we had in 17 the past with other people, that we were willing to sign a 18 letter that said that this would be a one-time-only thing; 19 that it would not be used in the future, would not set a 20 precedent, could not be used in arbitration or negotiations, 21 et cetera, et cetera. 22 Q. Did Mr. Wesbecker, to your knowledge or based on 23 what he may have told you, go to meet with these people, 24 either with you or alone? 25 A. Yes, he did. 23 1 Q. What did he tell you about that, sir? 2 A. Well, he told me that he was basically running 3 up against the same stone wall that I was running up against; 4 that they just weren't going to give him what he wanted. He 5 said that they told him that they would exempt him when they 6 could, but if they needed him they were going to put him on 7 the folder anyhow. 8 Q. Mr. Frazier, what was Mr. Wesbecker's basis or 9 reason for wanting an exemption from the folder? 10 A. He blamed it on his nerves and mental distress, 11 and he said it was just something to the effect that it was 12 just tearing him up to have to come in there and work it 13 anymore, the stress was just really getting to him. 14 Q. Did Mr. Shea recognize mental illness as a 15 handicap? 16 A. Oh, I don't think so, no. 17 Q. Did Mr. Shea or the others in management believe 18 that Joe Wesbecker was mentally ill? 19 A. I believe they thought he had a problem, yes. 20 Q. And did they ever agree that that problem 21 qualified him for an exemption? 22 A. No, sir. 23 Q. After going to these various steps, sir, did Mr. 24 Wesbecker take any other steps to try to get the exemption? 25 A. The best of my recollection, sir, he went to 24 1 various agencies, that is, outside the union and the company. 2 I know on different times I talked to him he talked about 3 filing discrimination charges, he talked about going to Unfair 4 Labor Practices, that sort of thing. 5 Q. Did he ever tell you how those things worked 6 out? 7 A. Last time I recall talking to him he said they 8 weren't doing him any good, either. 9 Q. Now, sir, let me go back for just a moment. Did 10 you notice any other changes in Mr. Wesbecker in the last few 11 years that he worked there as compared to the 1970s, other 12 than the things that we've just now discussed? Did you notice 13 anything else about him that was different, sir? 14 A. Well, yes, a number of things. He just changed 15 completely from the type of person that I knew before, a man 16 that I called a casual friend. He became very withdrawn and 17 at times he wouldn't talk to you and at other times he would. 18 I mean, he just became -- I guess the word is moody. He 19 developed a number of rather exotic -- what I thought were 20 exotic -- interests, in guns and gun magazines, national 21 rifleman magazines and hunting magazines and weapons 22 catalogues, and he made a lot of crazy statements, or I 23 thought at the time they were crazy. I guess that's a poor 24 choice of words, but that's what I thought. 25 Q. What sorts of statements did he make? 25 1 A. Well, in general, he seemed to threaten people, 2 which he had never done before and made statements to that 3 effect, and it's so long ago I can't remember exactly. The 4 one thing that comes to my mind was that one time he told me 5 about he was going to get some kind of radio-controlled 6 airplane and put explosives in the thing and fly it against 7 the building in order to get even with Mr. Shea and 8 management, Don McCall and so forth. 9 Q. You said he seemed to threaten people, which he 10 had not done before. What kinds of threats would they be, 11 sir? 12 A. Again, it's been so long, they were fairly 13 violent threats, you know. He would have a confrontation and 14 he'd say something like, "Well, you know, maybe that person 15 should be blowed away or maybe he needs to be wiped out," or 16 something to that effect. 17 Q. Was it just one or two people that he would act 18 that way with? 19 A. In the beginning, but his list seemed to grow 20 longer as time went by. 21 Q. You mentioned that at times he would stop 22 speaking to people? 23 A. Well, me in particular, yes. 24 Q. You in particular? Why did he stop speaking to 25 you, sir? 26 1 A. I have no idea. 2 Q. You hadn't done anything except try to help him, 3 from what I understand? 4 MR. SMITH: Objection, leading, Your Honor. 5 JUDGE POTTER: Sustained. 6 Q. Had you done anything to him, sir? 7 A. No, sir. I never done nothing to the man, that 8 I know of, to make him stop talking to me. 9 Q. Do you recall when it was that he stopped 10 talking to you? 11 A. This began about two years prior to the incident 12 we're all here for, and it became increasingly worse. And in 13 the last year, and particularly the last six months, he 14 became -- from a layman's view all's I can say is he became 15 very strange. 16 Q. In the last six months, sir, what in particular 17 about him was so strange, from your recollection? 18 A. He seemed to lose his grip on reality, to me. 19 Joe knew better. He would come and confront me, come into 20 work. He might be off and he would come in there to see me 21 and he would demand that I do certain things and that the 22 union do certain things and, as I told you before, earlier on 23 we had discussed the fact that we didn't have grounds for a 24 grievance, a contractual grievance about his assignments on 25 the press. And he understood that in the beginning, but in 27 1 the last six months he would come in and rant and rave at me. 2 And he never made any major threats but he made minor threats, 3 you know, such as, "I'll see you. You're not going to get 4 elected again. I'll talk to people and we'll have you thrown 5 out of office," and he just seemed to lose his grip on reality 6 about getting off the folder. 7 Q. Mr. Frazier, in that last year or two, was he 8 ever actually really on the folder? 9 A. Not very much, no. 10 Q. Mr. Frazier, at some point in time, if I 11 understand correctly, he got LTD or long-term disability from 12 Standard Gravure. Is that consistent with your recollection, 13 sir? 14 A. It is. 15 Q. Were you involved, sir, in any way in connection 16 with that disability in connection with him? 17 A. No, not -- no, I wasn't particularly involved. 18 That's the function of the company, between him and the 19 company. 20 Q. That would not be an issue that the union would 21 be involved in? 22 A. No, not unless there was some sort of a problem 23 that he had where they refused to give it to him and he came 24 to us, we might go represent him and try to find out why they 25 weren't honoring the terms of the LTD agreement but, I mean , 28 1 no, not basically; that's not a function of the union. 2 Q. If I understand correctly, then, that would be 3 the individual and the company that would be involved in 4 disability or LTD? 5 A. That's correct. 6 Q. All right, sir. Mr. Frazier, it's my 7 understanding that Joe Wesbecker went on LTD and stopped 8 working actively at Standard Gravure on August 6, 1988, about 9 a year and one month before these shootings occurred. After 10 he went off on disability, sir, did you ever have any contact 11 with him? 12 A. Quite a few times, yes. 13 Q. Would you try to relate those times to us and 14 try to put them in chronological order? And I know it's been 15 a long time, but if you would, try to give us your best 16 recollection on those occasions. 17 A. Well, basically, it's like I said a while ago to 18 you, he would come in work periodically. Oh, it's so long 19 ago. Two or three weeks would go by and he would show up and 20 he would come in. And at various times it would be -- he 21 would come by and he would just gripe at me. He would say, 22 "The company's not paying me right," or "I'm having trouble 23 with getting my checks" or "I'm having trouble with that" or 24 "I'm filing charges with this agency." And this would happen 25 periodically, as I said, like two weeks, maybe three weeks 29 1 would go by and he'd be in again, and then a month and he 2 would be in again. And then towards the end he would be 3 coming in, as I told you before, hollering at me, saying you 4 know, "I don't know why you didn't get me off the folder." 5 And, you know, "I wouldn't have to be without my job. I 6 didn't want to quit my job. I didn't want to be retired," and 7 progressively he just got wilder every time he came in. And I 8 don't know, I guess it was probably the last time I saw him 9 was two, three weeks, a month maybe before. 10 Q. Were these occasions when you'd see him 11 periodically through that year, would it be at Standard 12 Gravure? 13 A. Oh, yes, sir. 14 Q. And during that year that he was off on 15 disability, did he tell you that he was happy and pleased with 16 his arrangement with Standard Gravure? 17 MR. SMITH: Objection. Leading. 18 JUDGE POTTER: Sustained. 19 Q. What did he tell you about his relationship with 20 Standard Gravure when he was off on disability? 21 A. He hated it. He was very bitter at the company. 22 As I said, at the end he was bitter at me. He was a little 23 bitter at the union. He blamed all sorts of people down 24 there, guys that he had worked with for not supporting him and 25 not helping him. I'm no doctor, but I guess the word is 30 1 paranoid. He just seemed like he was real paranoid to me 2 about the whole thing. But he really hated being off from 3 work; he expressed that to me on more than one occasion. He 4 just did not want to be retired. He didn't think it was fair. 5 He didn't think it was right. He thought it was totally 6 wrong, and in a way I agreed with the man. 7 Q. Mr. Frazier, let me show you a document, first 8 of all, sir, marked as Defendant's Exhibit 338, and let me ask 9 you, sir, if you can identify this document. 10 A. Yes, sir; I can. 11 Q. Can you tell us what it is? 12 A. It's a letter from me to Mr. Wesbecker 13 concerning his problems with working on the folder. 14 Q. This is a letter from you to him? 15 A. Yes, sir; it is. 16 Q. Dated January 15, 1988; correct, sir? 17 A. That's correct. 18 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, we move the admission 19 of Defendant's Exhibit 338 and ask that it be published to the 20 jury. 21 JUDGE POTTER: Be admitted. Give copies to my 22 sheriff. 23 SHERIFF CECIL: (Hands document to jurors). 24 Q. Mr. Frazier, do you have any specific 25 recollection as to what Joe Wesbecker's reaction was to the 31 1 statements made in this letter? 2 A. At this particular point in time, Joe fairly -- 3 I guess you would say he accepted what we were saying at this 4 point in time, at least. That's in January of '88. 5 Q. Did that change later? 6 A. Oh, yes, sir. 7 Q. And how did it change? 8 A. As I said before, from that time until the time 9 that this incident happened, why, he went from acceptance to 10 total rejection of our position and threatening to me over 11 things, you know. 12 Q. Let me show you another document, sir, that has 13 been marked as Defendant's Exhibit 336. And let me ask you if 14 you can identify this document for us, please, sir. 15 A. I can. 16 Q. And what is it, sir? 17 A. Excuse me? I didn't hear you, sir. 18 Q. I'm sorry. What is it, sir? 19 A. It's a letter from me to Ms. Elizabeth Shipley 20 and Mr. Dan Mattingly of the Human Relations Commission. 21 Q. It's a letter that you wrote, sir? 22 A. Yes, it is. 23 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, we would move the 24 admission of Defendant's Exhibit 336 and ask that it be 25 published to the jury. 32 1 JUDGE POTTER: Be admitted. 2 SHERIFF CECIL: (Hands document to jurors). 3 Q. Mr. Frazier, do you have any recollection as to 4 how this letter came to be written? 5 A. Yes, sir. Joe filed a complaint with the Human 6 Relations Commission. As president of the union they called 7 me and discussed this with me. It's one of those things that 8 had escaped my mind for a while, but I know what it is and how 9 it happened. And they asked me for a response, verbally over 10 the phone they asked me if we had a problem as a union to him 11 being exempted from the folder, and I said no, we don't have a 12 problem with that. We've had cases in the past where that has 13 happened and we were able to reach an accommodation with the 14 company and, basically, you know, that we can't force the 15 company to do that but we're certainly willing, if the company 16 is willing, to go along with Joe and to meet his problems. 17 And they asked me to respond in writing and I did so. 18 Q. Lastly, sir, let me show you a document that's 19 been marked as Defendant's Exhibit 337. And I will start off, 20 sir, by apologizing to you for the quality of this copy, but 21 it's the best that I could do. I apologize to everybody for 22 the quality of this copy. Do you recognize this document, 23 sir? 24 A. I do. 25 Q. Can you tell us what it is? 33 1 A. It's a withdrawal card from the Graphic 2 Communications International Union, our parent union, for Joe 3 Wesbecker. It's dated February of '89. 4 Q. And is it signed by you, as well, sir? 5 A. Yes, sir; it is. 6 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, we would move the 7 admission of Defendant's Exhibit 337 and ask that it be 8 published. 9 JUDGE POTTER: Be admitted. 10 SHERIFF CECIL: (Hands document to jurors). 11 Q. Mr. Frazier, this document is entitled up at the 12 top, Graphic Communications International Union, and then it 13 looks like there are two boxes there that can be checked; 14 correct? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. And the one marked Honorable Withdrawal is 17 checked? 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. And over to the left it shows the member's name? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. And the local number or GCU Louisville Local and 22 then I don't know if it gives the number or not. I can't read 23 it on my copy. 24 A. It's on the line to your right; it's 19N. 25 Q. Oh, I see it. Yes, sir. And then up above the 34 1 19N is the member's number, which I assume is Social Security 2 number? 3 A. Social Security, yes. 4 Q. And then there's a date there? 5 A. Correct. 6 Q. And can you read that date, sir? 7 A. Looks like February the 23rd, 1989, to me. 8 Q. And then it is -- says, "Last month PC tax paid, 9 one year." What does that mean, sir? 10 A. That's the last time he paid his per capita tax. 11 The per capita tax is the money that's sent into the 12 international union as their part of the dues. There's a 13 certain amount that stays with the local, a certain amount 14 goes to the international. 15 Q. And then under that it says president, and is 16 that your signature there, sir? 17 A. It is. 18 Q. And then it says secretary-treasurer, and can 19 you recognize that signature or read it? 20 A. That's Frank L. Wheatley. 21 Q. And then under that is the signature of 22 Joseph T. Wesbecker? 23 A. Correct. 24 Q. Mr. Frazier, what do you remember about this 25 document and how this came into being in February of 1989? 35 1 A. Basically this document is a formality. I know 2 that Joe was very unhappy about having to do this, but once 3 you take LTD or you retire, this is the process you go through 4 to take a withdrawal card. It's the same as retiring from the 5 union. If you don't do this, your dues, both local and 6 international, continue to go on and you have to pay your dues 7 each month. When you take a withdrawal card like this, then 8 you're still a member in good standing of the international 9 and of the local and you don't have to pay dues. I have a 10 withdrawal card now. I'm no longer in the trade, and, as I 11 say, it represents a retirement from the union, basically. 12 Q. Did you discuss whether or not he should do this 13 with him, sir? 14 A. Yes, I did. 15 Q. What do you recall about those discussions? 16 A. Joe, as I said, was very unhappy and bitter 17 about it and he didn't want to do it, he didn't want to lose 18 his job to start with, but I advised him that this was the 19 only way to go because there was no sense in paying dues every 20 month to the local and international if he wasn't going to be 21 in the trade and getting any money for it, and he finally 22 accepted that. 23 Q. Mr. Frazier, after February of 1989, was he a 24 member of the union? 25 A. Why, sure, he's always a member. He's 36 1 withdrawn, but, I mean, he's still a member of the union, yes. 2 Q. He could come back if he went back to work? 3 A. Absolutely, yeah. Sure. He has to pay a 4 reinstatement fee, but that's all that amounts to. 5 Q. Mr. Frazier, did Mr. Wesbecker in that last year 6 before the shootings occurred in any of these times that you 7 ran into him at the plant or he talked to you, did he ever 8 talk to you about what he was going to do, where he was going 9 to go from there? 10 A. Oh, he was -- at times, but he was very 11 disjointed and very confused about that, very upset. He 12 didn't seem to know what his life held for him after that. I 13 tried to say something to the effect, I said, "Well, life goes 14 on, Joe, there's got to be something after being a pressman," 15 you know, but he just couldn't seem to accept that. He said, 16 "Well, I don't know what that is," something to that effect. 17 Q. That's all I have, Your Honor. 18 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith. 19 20 EXAMINATION ___________ 21 22 BY_MR._SMITH: __ ___ ______ 23 Q. Mr. Frazier, do you have the exhibits in front 24 of you? 25 A. Yes, sir. 37 1 Q. What is the exhibit number for the January 15th, 2 1988 letter? 3 A. Say it again, sir? 4 Q. What is the exhibit number for the January 15th, 5 1988 letter that you wrote Mr. Wesbecker? It ought to have a 6 stamp on it. 7 A. Defendant's Exhibit 338. Is that what you're 8 referring to? 9 Q. Right. I was looking in your deposition, so I 10 didn't write it down. It's Defendant's Exhibit 338? The 11 first two paragraphs read, "In regard to your recent request 12 to reinstate your grievance concerning working on the folder, 13 we have investigated this case and found that it is not a 14 legitimate grievance. The issues involved in this grievance 15 have been settled and cannot be brought up again without just 16 cause. You were aware of Superintendent D. Cox agreeing 17 verbally to not placing you on the folder, and it is a matter 18 of fact that you have not been required to work on the folder 19 since our last resolution of this matter." Correct? 20 A. That's what it says. 21 Q. And it's signed by you? 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. Was that accurate at the time, sir? 24 A. It is. And it was. 25 Q. So, in fact, what had occurred, Mr. Frazier, was 38 1 that management had been contacted on this and management had 2 agreed not to put Mr. Wesbecker on the folder unless it was 3 necessary to do so; correct, sir? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. And management had advised that they would give 6 Mr. Wesbecker what accommodations they could, hadn't they? 7 A. Yes, they had. 8 Q. And you found by virtue of this that this was 9 not a legitimate grievance? 10 A. I said that awhile ago. Yes. 11 Q. And, in fact, do you know of any instance that 12 Mr. Wesbecker was placed back on the folder after January 13 15th, 1988? 14 A. January of '88? Yes, I believe I do, sir. Yes. 15 Q. You do? 16 A. I believe I do. 17 Q. All right. Tell us when and where that was in 18 Mr. Wesbecker. 19 A. No, I can't possibly do that. 20 Q. Then why do you say that you believe that Mr. 21 Wesbecker -- the reason I ask you, Mr. Frazier, is because all 22 the evidence up to this date has been that he wasn't ever on 23 the folder after September 1986. Now, do you have some 24 different evidence? 25 A. September of '86? 39 1 Q. Yes. 2 A. September of '86? 3 Q. Yes, sir. Do you have any different evidence 4 that he was put on the folder after January of '88? 5 A. I don't have any evidence, sir; I only have my 6 recollection. 7 Q. Then why do you say you believe he was put back 8 on the folder? 9 A. You asked me, sir, if I believed he was on 10 there. I said yes. I talked to the man; he had been on 11 there. And I had seen him working on the folder. 12 Q. You saw him working on the folder after January 13 15th, 1988? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. And did you take any action in connection with 16 that? 17 A. Why, no, not at all. 18 Q. Did he ask you to take any action in connection 19 with that when you saw him standing there working the folder? 20 A. Not at that time. As I said earlier, he worked 21 very seldom on the folder after we got some sort of agreement 22 with the company. He worked on the secondary winder quite a 23 bit, which is not exactly the same thing. It has got 24 pressures like a folder but it's not as bad as a folder. But 25 I saw him working on a folder, if that's what you're asking 40 1 me. 2 Q. And you're sure it's after January 15th of 1988? 3 A. To the best of my recollection; yes, sir. 4 Q. Did you make or reopen the grievance after 5 January 15th, 1988? 6 A. That's probably a poor choice of words in my 7 part in calling that a grievance to start with. It was more 8 of a disagreement. As I explained earlier, sir, there never 9 was contractual grounds for an actual contract grievance. 10 Q. Mr. Frazier, my question to you is, did you ever 11 reopen the grievance after seeing Mr. Wesbecker working on the 12 folder after January 15th, 1988? 13 A. I talked to the company about it, yes. 14 Q. Who? 15 A. I talked I believe it was Mr. Cox, Mr. McKeown. 16 At one standing committee I remember talking with Mr. Shea and 17 Mr. McCall, and I believe Mr. Cox was in attendance at that 18 meeting. 19 Q. Mr. Cox was here yesterday and he swore under 20 oath that this never occurred, that Mr. Wesbecker was never on 21 the folder after January 15th, 1988, as far as he knew. And 22 he didn't mention any conversations with you concerning Mr. 23 Wesbecker being on the folder after January 15th, 1988. Are 24 you sure you talked to Mr. Cox about that, Mr. Frazier? 25 A. I'm sure. 41 1 Q. You're positive? 2 A. I am positive. 3 Q. And you're positive it was after January 15th, 4 1988? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. All right. Mr. Frazier, I didn't introduce 7 myself. We've never met. I'm Paul Smith and I represent 8 these people here who were pressmen, members of your union. 9 All right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Do I understand it that in fact you were working 12 for the union during the 1980s as the union president? Were 13 you an actual union employee? 14 A. No. 15 Q. You were a pressman? 16 A. That's correct. 17 Q. Continuing to work as a pressman? 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. But you were elected as union president and were 20 active representing the pressmen against management? 21 A. Yes. That's correct. 22 Q. And it was your job to take the position of the 23 pressmen and try to get their wishes brought forward to 24 management; is that right? 25 A. That's correct. 42 1 Q. And that always presented some type of 2 confrontation with management when you have labor and 3 management, doesn't it? 4 A. Yes, sir; it does. 5 Q. You seem to have a pretty negative view toward 6 management at Standard Gravure. 7 A. Not management at Standard Gravure, per se, only 8 the Shea management. 9 Q. Wasn't he the one that was the manager after 10 1986? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. In fact, had you negotiated with the Binghams 13 prior to this? 14 A. Numerous occasions. 15 Q. And the Binghams, during those negotiations had 16 negotiated for a moratorium of pay? 17 A. A moratorium of what, sir? 18 Q. Of pay raises? 19 A. A pay freeze, yes. 20 Q. And that was because of financial problems that 21 they had expressed? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And you for the union had agreed to this 24 moratorium in pay raises? 25 A. Yes. 43 1 Q. And that had caused some problems among the 2 union members; is that right, Mr. Frazier? 3 A. Problems, I don't know that it caused any 4 problems; it caused concern certainly, yes. 5 Q. It caused morale to be bad? 6 A. Well, I guess it affected morale negatively, of 7 course. 8 Q. When Mr. Shea took over the plant in 1986, the 9 pressmen had not had a raise in four years, had they? 10 A. Correct. 11 Q. And they were not happy with that, were they? 12 A. No. 13 Q. And did they express that unhappiness to you, 14 sir? 15 A. Certainly. 16 Q. And did you request that Mr. Shea and Mr. McCall 17 review that moratorium? 18 A. Oh, absolutely. 19 Q. And they elected not to reinstate the 20 contractual moratorium where that moratorium would no longer 21 exist; is that right? 22 A. I don't think I understood what you said. They 23 elected not to do what -- 24 Q. Shea, when he took over said, "I'm going to 25 continue to abide by the moratorium"? 44 1 A. Yes, he did. 2 Q. And he didn't agree to give any raises? 3 A. Oh, no. No. 4 Q. Did you have criticism of Shea because he was 5 trying to operate Standard Gravure at a profit? 6 A. Did I have a problem with that? 7 Q. Right. 8 A. Oh, absolutely not. No. 9 Q. When he said, "I'm here and I'm not running an 10 organization designed to be charitable," you didn't have a 11 problem with that, really, did you? 12 A. I had a problem with his attitude, not with the 13 fact that he was there to make a profit. 14 Q. Did you say that Joe was hostile toward the 15 union during these latter days? 16 A. Yes, I did. 17 Q. Do you have your deposition there, sir? 18 A. Yes, I do. 19 Q. Is that in that envelope? 20 A. It is. 21 Q. What's on the outside of that envelope? 22 A. It's an envelope -- a torn envelope and address. 23 Q. Who's the envelope from, sir? 24 A. Boehl, Stopher & Graves. 25 Q. Okay. Would you open up that envelope and take 45 1 out the deposition. Would you turn to Page 121, Mr. Frazier. 2 It says there on Line 2 of Page 121, the question was put to 3 you, "Question: You did not detect any hostility or 4 resentment with regard to the union on his part." Correct, 5 sir? 6 A. That's what it says. 7 Q. And your answer was: "No, I didn't really," 8 isn't it? 9 A. That's what it says. 10 Q. Now, is that not correct, sir, that testimony 11 you gave under oath in your deposition? 12 A. I have to see what context we're talking about 13 here at that particular point in time. (Reviews document) 14 We're talking about a letter that was given to him at that 15 particular time and, no, I didn't detect any hostility at that 16 time, no. That is correct as is written. 17 Q. The next sentence goes on and talks about -- 18 next question and answer talks about him withdrawing from the 19 union; correct? 20 A. That's it, yes. 21 Q. And you say it was ancillary -- his resignation. 22 MR. STOPHER: Wait a minute. 23 MR. SMITH: What do you mean wait a minute, 24 Counsel? 25 MR. STOPHER: Let's read the question and 46 1 answer. 2 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith, just read questions 3 and answers; you can pick them but read them. 4 Q. The next question and answer on Page 121, 5 beginning Line 5 says, "His resignation or withdrawal from the 6 union was in protest over the way he had been treated by the 7 company as opposed to the way he was treated -- had been 8 treated by the union." Your answer was: "Absolutely. It was 9 ancillary actually to his resignation. Formal resignation 10 went through the company when he quit his job and this is a 11 secondary matter. It's simply a formality. After quitting 12 his job, if he didn't withdraw from the union he would still 13 be responsible for paying monthly dues and assessments, and so 14 this is just a way, a formality to stop paying dues and 15 assessments until such a time as he went back to work in the 16 trade." Correct, sir? 17 A. Yes. That's what I said awhile ago. Yes. 18 That's correct. 19 Q. So he wasn't hostile toward the union, was he? 20 A. At that particular time? 21 Q. Yes. When he resigned from the union in 22 February of '89, he didn't have any hostility toward the 23 union, did he? 24 A. No, not at that particular time we're talking 25 about. No, he didn't express hostility, I don't think. 47 1 Q. Did he have hostility at any time after that 2 toward the union? 3 A. I just said awhile ago; yes, he did. 4 Q. Tell us about that. 5 A. Well, as I said before, it progressively -- at 6 first Joe seemed to understand the position that we didn't 7 have a contractual right to grieve his being assigned to the 8 folder. 9 Q. Wait a minute. By February 1989, Mr. Wesbecker 10 is already on long-term disability. He's not working at the 11 plant and the folder is not causing a problem anymore; 12 correct, sir? 13 A. Yeah. That's true. Okay. 14 Q. All right. Now, did he express hostility to the 15 union after February 1989? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Tell me about that, sir. 18 A. As I said before, he came into the plant on 19 various occasions, some two weeks, three weeks apart and 20 basically it became a little more disagreeable each time he 21 came in to talk to me. I don't know that he was there to talk 22 to me specifically or that he was there because of a union 23 problem. Basically he was there telling me he was there to 24 deal with the company for some reason or another. 25 Q. Is it your testimony, Mr. Frazier, that Joe 48 1 Wesbecker was in the Standard Gravure plant every two or three 2 weeks and would stop by and talk to you about his problems 3 with the company? 4 A. As I said, the period -- it's a long time ago 5 and it was two or three weeks, sometimes it might be a month 6 before I saw him but, yes, he was in the plant and he talked 7 to me. 8 Q. I understand this was a long time ago and it's 9 very important that we know what went on during this period of 10 time, Mr. Frazier, so I'm going to have to ask you some very 11 specific questions so we can get your best evidence concerning 12 this. All right? 13 Now, the facts are that Joe Wesbecker went on 14 long-term disability -- last worked at Standard Gravure on 15 August the 10th, 1988; all right, sir? Does that comport with 16 your recollection? 17 A. If you say that's what the date was, I'll go 18 along with it. I can't remember dates that well. 19 Q. That's what the evidence has been. 20 A. Okay. That's fine. 21 Q. Now, we know the fire occurred on November 1988, 22 don't we? 23 A. That seems reasonable, yes, about that time. 24 Q. That was in Area, what, Two that there was a 25 fire? 49 1 A. Two. Yes. 2 Q. And that area had to be shut down? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Now, I want you to tell us every time that you 5 can remember that Joe Wesbecker was in that plant after -- 6 between August 10th, 1988, and November 1988, when the fire 7 occurred. 8 A. I can't do that. 9 Q. Was it one time? 10 A. Between August of '88 and November of '88? 11 Q. Yes, sir. 12 A. I really can't do that. 13 Q. Do you know if he came in at all during that 14 period of time? 15 A. I will sit here and swear to that. Yes, he was 16 in the plant. 17 Q. How many times, sir? Was it -- you say you will 18 sit here and swear to it, so how many times? 19 A. I remember seeing him but, you know, I can't 20 tell you whether it was twice or three times or once or five 21 times. It just doesn't come back to me, sir. I'm sorry. 22 Q. Well, did you talk to him on any of those 23 occasions? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. How many times did you talk to him on those 50 1 occasions? 2 A. Seems to me I talked to him a couple, three 3 times, but, you know, I just hate to sit here under oath and 4 my memory is so faulty. 5 Q. Your memory is so faulty? 6 A. Well, certainly, yes. 7 Q. Well, it's important that we separate what you 8 do actually remember and what you don't remember, sir. Okay? 9 A. Yes. I understand that. 10 Q. Your memory is accurate when you say you think 11 you saw him in the plant between August of '88 and November of 12 '88; correct? 13 A. That's correct. 14 Q. But your memory is faulty as to whether or not 15 you ever talked with him? 16 A. No. It's faulty as to the number of times I saw 17 him in there. 18 Q. Again, we're in the August-to-November period of 19 time. Are you with me? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. You think you talked to him; is that right? 22 A. I talked to Joe -- let me rephrase that. Joe 23 talked to me. Every time I saw Joe after he began having 24 these problems he came to me and talked to me. 25 Q. All right. So, did he talk to you about the 51 1 problems with the plant? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. About the problems with his disability while he 4 was off from August of '88 to November of '88? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Okay. What did he say? How many times did you 7 talk about those problems? 8 A. As I said, two or three times, perhaps. 9 Q. Two or three times. All right. On the first 10 occasion that you talked to him about his problems at work, 11 what did he say? 12 A. You can't pin me down that tight because each 13 time that Joe came to me the best that I can tell you is he 14 was dissatisfied with what was happening to him. He was 15 bitter, he was unhappy and he expressed those opinions to me, 16 and he expressed that he was being treated unfairly, and 17 that's the best of my recollection. 18 Q. Hadn't Joe Wesbecker applied for long-term 19 disability? 20 A. Had he applied? 21 Q. Yeah. Isn't that long-term disability something 22 he wanted? 23 A. No. He didn't want that. 24 Q. He didn't? 25 A. That's what he told me. 52 1 Q. Then why did he apply for it? 2 A. Well, he had to. 3 Q. Why? 4 A. He was unable to continue his employment there, 5 according to him. 6 Q. The doctor said he was unable to continue to 7 work; right? 8 A. That was my understanding, yes. 9 Q. And he gave that doctor -- that doctor's report 10 to his employer and asked them to put him on long-term 11 disability; correct? 12 A. Sure. 13 Q. And that was done, wasn't it? 14 A. Yes. As far as I know it was. 15 Q. So, now, back to those conversations, what was 16 he upset about in those two or three conversations you had 17 with him between August of '88 and November of '88? 18 A. As I told you repeatedly, Joe was bitter because 19 he lost his job, period. That's where the whole thing starts 20 and where it ends, and everything that happened in between 21 there he was bitter about. He did not want to be off on 22 disability. He did not want to lose his job. He wanted to 23 continue to work as a pressman at Standard Gravure and not 24 have to work the folder. That's as simple as it is. And from 25 there on, everything made him mad, made him bitter, made him 53 1 unhappy. 2 Q. All right. So your judgment is is that the 3 problem here was that he wouldn't be taken off the folder, the 4 company wouldn't let him off the folder? 5 A. Why, absolutely, that's where the whole thing 6 started. 7 Q. And that's what caused this to occur on 8 September 14th, 1989, is that Joe Wesbecker didn't get off the 9 folder? 10 A. Yeah. I believe that's what started it, and I 11 think that's probably at the end what really happened. 12 Q. Well, was it his problem with the folder or was 13 it his problem being off work? 14 A. Well, as I said, it all falls into place. He 15 couldn't get off the folder so his tensions, according to him, 16 what he said to me, he couldn't handle the job, so his doctor 17 give him a slip that says you can't handle it, retire, take 18 long-term disability and that's -- 19 Q. He had asked that -- 20 MR. STOPHER: Could he finish his answer? 21 JUDGE POTTER: Let him finish, Mr. Smith. 22 Q. He had asked for that from his doctor, hadn't 23 he? 24 A. Oh, I don't know that, no. 25 Q. You didn't talk about that? 54 1 A. Yes. My conversations with Joe always -- or his 2 conversations with me, I probably should say -- always were 3 that he didn't want to retire, did not want to lose his job. 4 All he wanted to do was to get off the folder and to continue 5 to work as a pressman, and whether or not he asked his doctor 6 for an LTD statement or not, I don't know about that. He 7 didn't say that to me. He just said, "They're making me 8 retire. They're doing this to me." 9 Q. Who is making him retire? 10 A. They, the company, the management, the doctors. 11 Q. Did you know that Joe was sick? 12 A. Did I know he was sick? 13 Q. Yeah. Did you believe he was sick? 14 A. Yeah. I believe he was disturbed, certainly. 15 Q. Did you believe he had a mental illness? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. What was your belief as to the nature of his 18 mental illness, sir? 19 A. He told me he was a manic depressive, but I just 20 thought he was a highly disturbed individual. I'm not 21 qualified to diagnose mental illness. 22 Q. Well, was it your impression that it was his 23 mental illness that was causing him not to be able to work on 24 the folder? 25 A. If you're talking about nerves -- 55 1 Q. Yes, sir. 2 A. -- and emotions; is that what you're asking me? 3 Q. Yes, sir. 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. In other words, you knew Joe for years, didn't 6 you? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. You had seen him working the folder in the past? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And you knew that he at one time was capable of 11 working the folder? 12 A. Good folder man, yes. 13 Q. The folder job hadn't changed, had it? 14 A. It had become more stressful, yes. 15 Q. That's just because production was up; right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. But that wasn't the problem that Joe was having, 18 was it? 19 A. I don't think so, no. 20 Q. The problem Joe was having was, is that by 21 virtue of his mental illness he couldn't handle the stress of 22 the folder; correct? 23 A. Nerves, mental illness, I guess, whatever you're 24 calling it. 25 Q. And what Joe wanted was to be taken off the 56 1 folder? 2 A. That's correct. 3 Q. But the reason he couldn't work the folder was 4 because of his underlying mental illness, wasn't it? 5 A. I think you've asked me that three times and I 6 keep saying yes, nerves, mental illness, emotional problems, 7 whatever. 8 Q. It wasn't Standard Gravure that caused him to be 9 mentally ill, was it? 10 A. I certainly think they contributed to his 11 problems along with all the rest of us that worked there. 12 Q. Did Standard Gravure cause Mr. Joseph Wesbecker 13 to be manic depressive, bipolar? 14 A. I don't think I'm qualified to answer that. 15 Q. Well, in your opinion? 16 A. I think they had a lot to do with it. They 17 certainly disturbed me. 18 Q. Are you suffering from some mental illness, sir? 19 A. I think like a lot of people down there, I have 20 emotional disturbance from that to this day, yes. 21 Q. Are you -- have you heard about the theory or 22 belief that the mental illness of major depressive disorder is 23 a result of an imbalance in the serotonin system? Know 24 anything about that? 25 A. Only what I read. 57 1 Q. All right. Joe never threatened you, did he? 2 A. As I said earlier, yes, but not with death. He 3 threatened me to the extent that he said he would -- he would 4 never vote for me again and he would do all he could to see to 5 it that I was never elected to the office of president again. 6 And up later, threats were that he was going to try to do 7 something, and I have no idea what that was, to get me taken 8 out of office. 9 Q. Did you ever fear, physically, Joseph Wesbecker? 10 A. No, I did not. 11 Q. What were the threats? Were they -- did you 12 think that they were threats that would actually come to 13 fruition or do you think they were just manifestations of his 14 frustration about his situation? 15 A. His threats to me, sir, about having me taken 16 out of office? 17 Q. Yeah. 18 A. I didn't think it would come to anything, no. 19 Q. Beg your pardon? 20 A. Excuse me. I didn't think they would come to 21 anything. I mean, I knew of no way he could have me taken out 22 of office, just an idle threat. 23 Q. Well, you think his statements that he was going 24 to try to get you removed from office was a threat of 25 violence? 58 1 A. I don't know that I gave it much thought at the 2 time. He was mad, so I guess it was a threat of some sort of 3 violence, yeah. 4 Q. Well, didn't other members express 5 dissatisfaction from time to time on what you were doing? 6 A. They sure did. Yes, sir. 7 Q. And did other members express that they were 8 trying to get you out of your job? 9 A. Not quite as violently as Joe did, no. 10 Q. What was violent about what Joe did, sir? 11 A. He became red in the face, agitated, jerking and 12 very loud voice and boisterous. 13 Q. And when was that? 14 A. That was toward the end of Joe's life. Probably 15 the last time I saw him, like I said, maybe a month or so 16 before this incident, two months. 17 Q. Okay. 18 A. Something like that. 19 Q. Did you ever take any efforts to have Joe barred 20 from the premises at Standard Gravure? 21 A. No. No. 22 Q. Did you ever call security on Joe Wesbecker? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Did you ever call the police on Joe Wesbecker? 25 A. No. 59 1 Q. Why? You never felt him a threat; right, sir? 2 A. Not really, no. 3 Q. All right. Those conversations that you had 4 with Joe Wesbecker on Page 138 of your deposition -- 5 A. One thirty-eight, sir? 6 Q. Yes, sir. 7 A. Well, here we go. Okay. What is it, sir? 8 Q. Page 138, beginning with Line 1. "Question: 9 Did you hear talk that he" -- and we're speaking of Wesbecker 10 there -- "had threatened the company or people inside the 11 company in connection with issues or problems that he claimed 12 that he had?" 13 Your answer there was: "Yes, sir. Hearsay." 14 Correct? 15 A. Uh-huh. 16 Q. Then the next question is: "What sort of 17 hearsay did you become aware of that involved him and threats 18 against the company" -- well, I take that back. This is 19 talking about Jim Lucas, isn't it? 20 MR. STOPHER: Can he complete the answer, Your 21 Honor? 22 JUDGE POTTER: Well, he's changed his question. 23 Go ahead, Mr. Smith. 24 Q. Read there at Page 137 and see if you're not 25 talking about Jim Lucas at that time. 60 1 MR. STOPHER: Could I ask what line? 2 MR. SMITH: The entire page. I'm not talking 3 to -- 4 JUDGE POTTER: He's asking him to read it to 5 himself. 6 Q. Seems like it's talking about -- 7 A. You're talking about Page 137? Let's look at it 8 in context. 9 Q. I'm going to get it right in a minute, Mr. 10 Frazier. Let's start here, 137, Line 23. Are you with me? 11 You just got that little-bitty print deposition? 12 A. Yeah. That's okay. I can get with you here. 13 Q. No. We're not going to -- I can't read those, 14 either. I have to give those things to some younger lawyers. 15 Page 137, Question, Line 23, Counsel. Look here with me. 16 This is the same thing, it's just bigger. It's written in 17 English like you and I learned in big type so we can read it. 18 "Question: Did Jim Lucas ever threaten anybody? 19 "Answer: I don't recall that he ever threatened 20 anybody in my presence." Right? 21 A. That's what it says, yeah. 22 Q. And that's accurate, isn't it? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Then on Page 138, and I'll just let you read 25 along here with me beginning on Line 1, "Question: Did you 61 1 hear talk that he" -- and they're talking about Jim Lucas 2 there; right? 3 A. Uh-huh. 4 Q. -- "had threatened the company or people inside 5 the company in connection with issues or problems that he 6 claimed he had?" 7 Your answer there was: "Yes, sir. Hearsay." 8 Next question is: "What sort of hearsay did you 9 become aware of that involved him and threats against the 10 company?" Right? 11 A. Uh-huh. 12 Q. Your answer is: "My best memory at this point 13 in time is very general; that he, like Joe Wesbecker, was very 14 dissatisfied with the resolution of some of his problems and 15 the way some of the related issues were being handled by the 16 company and by management personnel, and he" -- again meaning 17 Mr. Lucas -- "also had some problems with fellow workers and 18 he even had some problems with me more than -- well, I 19 shouldn't say more so because that's not accurate. But 20 whereas Joe Wesbecker and I never really had any negative 21 conversations, Jim Lucas and I had several rather serious, 22 negative conversations regarding how he felt the union ought 23 to do and what we ought to do and when we ought to do it and 24 that sort of thing." Correct, sir? 25 A. That's what it says. 62 1 Q. So you're saying here that you and Mr. Wesbecker 2 never really had any negative conversations, aren't you? 3 A. That's what it says. 4 Q. In connection -- turn with me to Page 125 of 5 your deposition and we're going to read several pages here 6 because it's your statement, is it not, Mr. Frazier, that Mr. 7 Wesbecker was in your office or in the plant many times 8 complaining to you; is that right? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. After he was given long-term disability; is that 11 right, sir? Is that right, sir? 12 A. After he was given long-term disability? 13 Q. Right. 14 A. Are you talking about that period between August 15 and November again? 16 Q. No. I'm this time going to take it all the way 17 up from August of '88 until September 14th, 1989, and I'm 18 talking with you specifically about occasions where you saw 19 him or you and he visited concerning his discontent with his 20 situation and the problems at work. Okay, sir? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Beginning on Page 125, Line 2 -- Line 4: 23 "Question: He didn't mention to you why he was claiming that 24 he was disabled? 25 "Answer: No, sir. 63 1 "Question: It is my understanding that the last 2 date that he actually worked at Standard Gravure was August 6, 3 1988. Do you know why he stopped working?" 4 Your answer was: "No, sir; I don't." Correct, 5 sir? 6 A. It says. 7 Q. "Question: Do you know what he did after he 8 stopped working? 9 "Answer: No, not at that time, certainly." 10 MR. STOPHER: No, not all the time, certainly. 11 Q. No, not all -- not all the time certainly. Are 12 you able to read that? 13 A. I'm following you. 14 Q. If you have a problem -- I know you've got the 15 small print, and Mr. Stopher may correct us both if we have a 16 problem. 17 Beginning on Line 14 of that same page, 18 "Question: I know not all the time. Do you have any -- did 19 you have any contact with him after he stopped working? And I 20 know there are some documents here that are dated after 21 August 6, 1988, and you told me something about the contacts 22 on those dates. Were there other times or occasions that you 23 would see him after he stopped working?" Correct? 24 A. That's what it says. 25 Q. Your answer was: "Yes, there were. As I 64 1 recall, I can't tell you the numbers -- he called me once or 2 twice and I ran into him, as I told you I think previously, in 3 the building. He was coming in to deal with some matter he 4 had to deal with after his termination or his cessation from 5 work, whatever you want to call it, so I saw him on those 6 occasions for passing comments and that sort of thing." 7 Correct? 8 A. That's what it says, sir. 9 Q. That's what your answer was then; correct? 10 A. It is, yes. 11 Q. Continuing on Page 2 -- on Line 2, "Question: 12 Did he give you any information about himself on any of those 13 occasions?" 14 Your answer was: "Again, I recall no specifics 15 other than what we've discussed. He was talking about getting 16 disability perhaps from the company; perhaps I think workers' 17 compensation was even mentioned, Social Security. It seems 18 like a catchall thing, and he was just trying to get some 19 income wherever he thought he could possibly get some income. 20 "Question: Did he ever mention to you that 21 Standard Gravure had sent him a letter advising him that his 22 disability payments would be reduced? 23 "Answer: I don't have a clear recollection of 24 that. It seems to me there was some comment made to that 25 effect, but I have no clear recollection. 65 1 "Question: Did he discuss what he felt about 2 Standard Gravure after he had stopped working? 3 "Answer: Oh, yes. He was very bitter. He 4 blamed them for a lot of troubles, rightfully or wrongful, I 5 don't know. I listened and sympathized with him and let it go 6 at that. 7 "Question: When he would express that 8 bitterness, did he ever try to mention trying to -- did he 9 ever mention trying to get even or in some way make it right? 10 "Answer: Other than what I've already told you, 11 no." That's about the workers' comp, correct, was what you 12 had already told them; right? 13 A. I believe -- perhaps I already mentioned about 14 in trying to get even in some way. 15 Q. No. The last thing you had mentioned about that 16 was the conversation you had had with Mr. Lucas when Mr. 17 Wesbecker was on Prozac where there was a discussion between 18 Mr. Lucas and Mr. Wesbecker about the plant. 19 MR. STOPHER: Objection, Your Honor. 20 JUDGE POTTER: I'm going to sustain the 21 objection. You can read questions and answers and if you need 22 to read them again, you can. 23 Q. "After he stopped working did he ever mention to 24 you what he was going to do in the future? 25 "Answer: No, sir. He seemed confused about 66 1 what he was going to be doing. Other than pursuing some form 2 of disability, he was very disjointed about what the rest of 3 his life had in store for him. 4 "Question: Did he mention to you any interests 5 that he had after he stopped working? 6 "Answer: No, sir, none at all. 7 "Question: After he stopped working did you 8 ever visit in his home? 9 "Answer: No, sir. 10 "Question: Did he ever invite you to come 11 visit? 12 "Answer: After he stopped working? 13 "Question: Yes, sir. 14 "Not that I recall. He may have, but I don't 15 recall. 16 "Question: Had you been in his home before he 17 stopped working? 18 "Answer: No, sir; I don't believe I ever was. 19 Now, skip with me to Page 128, Question, Line 20 13. Do you see it? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. "When was the last time that you think you saw 23 him before the shooting occurred on September 14th, 1989? 24 "Answer: That's hard to say. A month or two 25 maybe when he came in the building for whatever reasons. 67 1 That's the best I can. 2 "Question: Would he come in as often as once a 3 month? 4 "Answer: It seems to me like he did. I really 5 didn't pay that much attention. He was back and forth there 6 for a while. It seemed to me like he was trying to get 7 paperwork and disability problems straightened out and that 8 sort of thing, so it seemed to me like he was coming in on a 9 fairly regular basis." Right, sir? 10 A. Uh-huh. 11 Q. Correct, sir? 12 A. That's what it says. 13 Q. But you don't say anything about any threats or 14 any expressions of hostility that he was making against you or 15 the union or the company, do you, sir? 16 A. No, not in those pages. No. 17 Q. Well, you didn't anywhere, did you? You didn't 18 mention this to anybody in your deposition that Joe Wesbecker 19 was continuing to issue any kind of threats after he was off 20 in August of 1988, did you? 21 A. I have no idea, sir. There's 177 pages there. 22 I thought that perhaps I would have at some point said that, 23 but if you said I didn't, I'll take your word for it. 24 Q. All right. Has your memory improved since you 25 gave your deposition, sir? 68 1 A. I don't think it's improved or got any worse, 2 sir. I think you've asked me questions that probably 3 stimulated some memories that the questions here didn't 4 evidently stimulate at that time. 5 Q. All right. Did you ever do anything -- if these 6 threats did occur, did you ever do anything about these 7 threats? 8 A. No. I told you awhile ago I didn't do anything. 9 Q. Beg your pardon? 10 A. I told you awhile ago I didn't do anything. 11 Q. Because you didn't consider them to be anything 12 indicative of any specific violent intent on Joe Wesbecker's 13 part, did you? 14 A. Hindsight's a wonderful thing, but it seems like 15 I was pretty stupid, but you're right. 16 Q. Well, all you could do was exercise your best 17 judgment at the time; right? 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. And your best judgment at the time was that Joe 20 Wesbecker didn't present any type of threat to Standard 21 Gravure at the time? 22 A. That's correct. 23 MR. SMITH: Just a second, Your Honor. 24 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. 25 MR. SMITH: That's all. 69 1 JUDGE POTTER: Anything further, Mr. Stopher? 2 MR. STOPHER: No, Your Honor. 3 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much, sir. You 4 may step down. You're excused. 5 MR. FRAZIER: Thank you, sir. 6 JUDGE POTTER: Ladies and gentlemen, we're going 7 to take the morning recess. As I've mentioned to you-all 8 before, do not permit anybody to talk to you about this case. 9 Do not discuss it among yourselves and do not form or express 10 opinions about it. We'll take a 15-minute recess. 11 (RECESS) 12 SHERIFF CECIL: The jury is now entering. All 13 jurors are present. Court is back in session. 14 JUDGE POTTER: Please be seated. 15 Mr. Stopher, do you want to call your next 16 witness. 17 MR. STOPHER: James Lucas, Your Honor. 18 JUDGE POTTER: Sir, would you raise your right 19 hand, please. 20 21 JAMES LUCAS, after first being duly sworn, was 22 examined and testified as follows: 23 24 JUDGE POTTER: Would you have a seat where my 25 sheriff indicates and then say your name very loudly and 70 1 clearly for the jury and spell it. 2 MR. LUCAS: My name is James R. Lucas. Lucas, 3 L-U-C-A-S. 4 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. And keep your voice up and 5 answer Mr. Stopher's questions. 6 7 EXAMINATION ___________ 8 9 BY_MR._STOPHER: __ ___ _______ 10 Q. Mr. Lucas, where do you live, sir? 11 A. 4204 Summerview Drive, Valley Station. 12 Q. And how old are you, sir? 13 A. Fifty-nine. 14 Q. Are you employed at the present time, sir? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Where were you last employed, sir? 17 A. Standard Gravure printing company. 18 Q. And when did you last work there, sir? 19 A. January the 29th of '92. 20 Q. Mr. Lucas, approximately when did you start work 21 at Standard Gravure? 22 A. May the 17th, I think it was, 1971. 23 Q. And before you started at Standard Gravure where 24 did you work, sir? 25 A. I worked at the old Fawcett-Dearing printing 71 1 company. 2 Q. And about when did you start there, sir? 3 A. I started there in 1955. 4 Q. And did you stay there until approximately May 5 of 1971, sir? 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q. Mr. Lucas, were you a pressman? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. You were a journeyman pressman? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Let me go back, sir. And I know it's a long 12 time ago, but let me go all the way back to the work at 13 Fawcett-Dearing printing facility; all right, sir? First of 14 all, where was that facility located? 15 A. Eleventh and Broadway. 16 Q. And what sort of a printing facility was it, 17 sir? 18 A. They printed magazines such as True Confession, 19 Woman's Day. 20 Q. And how did you happen to leave there, sir, in 21 May of 1971? 22 A. I was on the negotiating committee for a 23 contract and found out that the company was pulling roots and 24 moving to Salem, Illinois. I didn't want to relocate, so I 25 applied for employment at Standard Gravure. 72 1 Q. And then, if I understand correctly, you worked 2 continuously at Standard Gravure as a pressman from '71 until 3 the beginning of '92? 4 A. That's correct. 5 Q. All right, sir. Mr. Lucas, going back again to 6 the Fawcett-Dearing work, did you have an occasion to meet Joe 7 Wesbecker at Fawcett in those days, sir? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And was he a pressman there like yourself? 10 A. He ended up as a pressman; he started out as a 11 fly-boy. 12 Q. I think that's the way everybody starts out, if 13 I have this drill down by now, sir. Certainly you started out 14 that way, too? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. All right. Did you help train him, sir, at the 17 old Fawcett facility? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And when he was a fly-boy were you already a 20 journeyman or perhaps an apprentice? 21 A. I was an apprentice. 22 Q. So you were one step up on the ladder? 23 A. Correct. 24 Q. And did you and he become friends? 25 A. Yes. 73 1 Q. Mr. Lucas, in those days at Fawcett, did Mr. 2 Wesbecker have other friends besides yourself? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Who were some of his friends back in those days, 5 sir? 6 A. Well, he had his -- what I considered close 7 friends was a fellow by the name of Tim Lattray, Richard 8 Schmaltz, Charlie Wilson, myself. 9 Q. Did you know a man named Donald Jackson there, 10 sir? 11 A. Yes. And his brother, Bob. 12 Q. Were either one of them friends with Joe 13 Wesbecker? 14 A. Yes. Yes. Donald was. 15 Q. Now, sir, back at Fawcett in those early days 16 with Joe Wesbecker, did you and he get to be more than just 17 working companions? Did you get to be friends or perhaps even 18 close friends? 19 A. Yes. We became friends after hours, going out 20 and drinking and partying and such. 21 Q. Did he tell you, sir, about himself and about 22 where he came from? 23 A. Not for quite a while, maybe six or seven years. 24 Q. And were you still working at Fawcett or were 25 both of you at Standard? 74 1 A. We were still at Fawcett. 2 Q. What sorts of things would he tell you about 3 himself and about where he came from, sir? 4 A. He would talk about his childhood, but he 5 wouldn't elaborate too much on it. I know I always thought it 6 was strange that he considered his grandmother a mother. I 7 thought his grandmother was his mother for years, only to find 8 out that it was his grandmother. That kind of surprised me. 9 Q. What did he call his grandmother? 10 A. A lot of times he just referred to her as Mom. 11 Q. Back in those early days, sir, at Fawcett, what 12 kind of a worker was he, sir? 13 A. He was a hard worker. 14 Q. What kind of hours would he work? 15 A. He would work anywhere from 12 to 16 hours a 16 day, 7 days a week. 17 Q. Did he tell you or did you learn why he worked 18 those kind of hours? 19 A. He said that he wanted to give his family a 20 better life than what he had. 21 Q. Mr. Lucas, in going back to those days, did Mr. 22 Wesbecker have any interest in guns or in hunting? 23 A. Not that I'm aware of. 24 Q. Back in those days, sir, when he worked at 25 Fawcett, did he have any nicknames? 75 1 A. Well, he had two nicknames, one was Pinky and 2 the other one was Sweat. I called him Sweat. 3 Q. How did he get the nickname Pinky, sir? 4 A. Well, if you'll excuse me, I'm not trying to 5 refer to it being anything racial or bias. It referred to the 6 movie Pinky. He had some of the features of the 7 African-American, the kinky, curly hair. 8 Q. Didn't it relate to his color, reddish hair? 9 A. No. It's just his feature that, like I say, it 10 had some dark complexion and the kinky hair. 11 Q. Where did he get the nickname Pillsbury 12 Doughboy? 13 A. I heard the name Pillsbury Doughboy after I come 14 to Standard. 15 Q. Did he at that time have a family at Fawcett? 16 A. When he first came there, the only one that he 17 had was his -- he wasn't married; he was living with his 18 grandparents. 19 Q. Living with his grandmother? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Did he get married while you knew him, sir? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And did he talk about his wife and about his 24 family to you? 25 A. The only thing he ever mentioned to me was in 76 1 regards to his sons. 2 Q. What sorts of things would he say about his 3 sons? 4 A. Well, that sometimes he was just upset, you 5 know, with the things they were doing. 6 Q. Let me go back, sir. I think I got us a little 7 bit ahead of the time clock. When he worked at Fawcett, you 8 transferred or left Fawcett and went to Standard Gravure? 9 A. That's correct. 10 Q. And did he do the same thing, sir? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Why did he do it? 13 A. I guess just because he didn't want to relocate, 14 either. 15 Q. If he had stayed with Fawcett he'd have to go to 16 where? 17 A. Salem, Illinois. 18 Q. All right. And he would rather go to -- stay 19 here in Louisville and go to Standard Gravure? 20 A. Correct. 21 Q. You started at Standard in May of '71. About 22 when did he start, sir? 23 A. I don't recall exactly when Joe came in. I 24 think it was approximately seven or eight months later. 25 Q. Okay. Mr. Lucas, when the both of you started 77 1 at Standard Gravure then in the early 1970s, what was he like