1 1 NO. 90-CI-06033 JEFFERSON CIRCUIT COURT DIVISION ONE 2 3 4 JOYCE FENTRESS, et al PLAINTIFFS 5 6 VS TRANSCRIPT_OF_THE_PROCEEDINGS __________ __ ___ ___________ 7 8 9 SHEA COMMUNICATIONS, et al DEFENDANTS 10 11 * * * 12 13 14 WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 30, 1994 15 VOLUME XLII 16 17 * * * 18 19 20 21 _____________________________________________________________ REPORTER: JULIA K. McBRIDE 22 Coulter, Shay, McBride & Rice 1221 Starks Building 23 455 South Fourth Avenue Louisville, Kentucky 40202 24 (502) 582-1627 FAX: (502) 587-6299 25 2 1 2 I_N_D_E_X _ _ _ _ _ 3 Hearing in Chambers on Buchholz Voir Dire................ 4 4 * * * 5 WITNESS: DR._THEODORE_SCHRAMM (By Deposition) - Cont'd. _______ ___ ________ _______ 6 By Mr. Stopher........................................... 28 7 WITNESS: DENNIS_BUCCHOLZ,_Ph.D. _______ ______ _________ _____ 8 By Mr. Stopher........................................... 44 9 By Mr. Smith............................................. 86 10 WITNESS: LIEUTENANT_DONALD_BURBRINK _______ __________ ______ ________ 11 By Mr. Stopher...........................................111 By Mr. Smith.............................................201 12 * * * 13 Reporter's Certificate...................................217 14 * * * 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 1 2 A_P_P_E_A_R_A_N_C_E_S _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 3 FOR THE PLAINTIFFS: 4 PAUL L. SMITH 5 Suite 745 Campbell Center II 6 8150 North Central Expressway Dallas, Texas 75206 7 NANCY ZETTLER 8 1405 West Norwell Lane Schaumburg, Illinois 60193 9 IRVIN D. FOLEY 10 Rubin, Hays & Foley 300 North, First Trust Centre 11 Louisville, Kentucky 40202 12 FOR THE DEFENDANT: 13 EDWARD H. STOPHER Boehl, Stopher & Graves 14 2300 Providian Center Louisville, Kentucky 40202 15 JOE C. FREEMAN, JR. 16 LAWRENCE J. MYERS Freeman & Hawkins 17 4000 One Peachtree Center 303 Peachtree Street, N.E. 18 Atlanta, Georgia 30308 19 * * * 20 21 22 23 24 25 4 1 The Transcript of the Proceedings, taken before 2 The Honorable John Potter in the Multipurpose Courtroom, Old 3 Jail Office Building, Louisville, Kentucky, commencing on 4 Wednesday, November 30, 1994, at approximately 8:56 A.M., said 5 proceedings occurred as follows: 6 7 * * * 8 9 (HEARING IN CHAMBERS) 10 MR. SMITH: What we want to talk to you about 11 is -- and why don't you talk to him about it, Nancy, and see 12 if we can't get it straight what these documents are. 13 MS. ZETTLER: Okay. 14 DOCTOR BUCHHOLZ: Would you like me to tell you 15 the story? 16 MS. ZETTLER: Why don't we do this first. Why 17 don't you put him under oath. 18 19 DENNIS BUCHHOLZ, after first being duly sworn, 20 was examined and testified as follows: 21 22 VOIR_DIRE_EXAMINATION ____ ____ ___________ 23 24 MS. ZETTLER: Why don't we just start with a 25 general question. If you could tell us how you got involved 5 1 in this issue of this MMPI and what you did in relation to 2 your involvement. 3 DOCTOR BUCHHOLZ: Sure. I didn't think I was 4 going to be testifying and then I got a call from one of Mr. 5 Stopher's assistants. It was either Robin Fisher or Ann 6 Piper, saying that they thought they might want me to testify 7 because there was some problem with this MMPI that had been 8 admitted before. And at that point I asked her what was 9 wrong. And she described the situation to me, and it didn't 10 seem like that much of a problem to me, so I asked her to send 11 me the materials. And so she sent me the answer sheet and 12 this report, the NCS report that was done in 1980, I think it 13 is. And I looked at this, and this is a -- this answer sheet 14 is from the Roche Psychiatric Institute and it's a step-down 15 test book. This is an obsolete form of the MMPI that isn't 16 used anymore. I haven't seen one in years, but it's one of 17 several forms of the MMPI that used to be used. And the 18 questions are all the same, they're just mixed up. And we can 19 get into the reasons for why that is, but it doesn't really 20 matter, I think, for this purpose. That's the way they used 21 to do that. The company is out of business. They don't do 22 that anymore. So I don't know how to score this. Nobody has 23 the materials to score this anymore. 24 So what I did was I called up NCS, who is the 25 company in Minnesota who does all the MMPI stuff ever wrote. 6 1 And they're the ones that did this orginal report and I sent 2 them the answer sheet and they sent me a new report based on 3 this answer sheet, and that's this one here. It's identical 4 to the old report. So they were able to translate this -- 5 they had a key in their computer that translated this into 6 their form so the numbers here -- particularly you're 7 concerned about these critical items -- these numbers here in 8 the new report are identical to the numbers in the old report, 9 these numbers here. 10 And on this new one here it says -- it explains 11 exactly this problem. We're not the first people to have this 12 problem. It explains it here. "Corresponding item numbers 13 for the Roche Test Book can be found in the Clinical Use of 14 the Automated MMPI." This is a book that's written by the guy 15 that's president of the American Psychological Association, 16 and I couldn't find a copy of this book anywhere. 17 So I called NCS and they sent me the pages out 18 of the book that are relevant. So this is right out of this 19 book, Clinical Use of the Automated MMPI, by Ray Fowler, and 20 this is conversion from standard MMPI booklet to the Roche 21 Test Book. So this is the translation key from one test set 22 of numbers to the other test set of numbers, and then we have 23 here how to convert it back. This comes from the RPSI test 24 book to the standard. And also with this is a letter that 25 explains this whole thing better than I can do it. It says 7 1 here, "Enclosed you will find the MMPI you recently returned 2 to us believing it had been scored incorrectly. In fact, the 3 scoring was accurate. The critical item listing appears to be 4 incorrect because the Roche Psychiatric Service Institute 5 chose not to use the standard Group Form MMPI item order. I 6 have enclosed a table that shows the relationship between the 7 unique item order employed in the Roche Test Book and the 8 standard test item employed in the Minnesota report. That 9 table will permit you to verify that the Roche answer sheets 10 that you submitted are in fact properly scored." And it goes 11 on to explain why they didn't use these numbers, and basically 12 it's because nobody uses these forms anymore. 13 So that's the whole story. It was my idea. I 14 don't know whether I should have done it or not, but, I mean, 15 I asked to see the materials. 16 MR. SMITH: This test was done in -- 17 DOCTOR BUCHHOLZ: 1980. 18 MR. SMITH: I thought it was '83. 19 DOCTOR BUCHHOLZ: Well, I don't know. 20 MS. ZETTLER: It's hard to read on here. It 21 kind of looks like '80 and -- 22 DOCTOR BUCHHOLZ: To be perfectly honest, I 23 haven't even read this report. I don't have any opinion about 24 the report. I just know what the scoring is. I don't know 25 anything about the report. 8 1 MR. SMITH: Obviously, you didn't administer 2 this test. 3 DOCTOR BUCHHOLZ: No. I had nothing to do with 4 it except being the intermediary here. 5 MR. SMITH: But you did do a test in -- but you 6 did a test in '87 -- 7 DOCTOR BUCHHOLZ: My own test. Yes. 8 MR. SMITH: -- when you examined Mr. Wesbecker? 9 DOCTOR BUCHHOLZ: That's right. And I used a 10 different answer sheet. So I would suspect -- I think what 11 you're most interested in would be this key that, you know, if 12 you want to look up any one of these items, you can translate 13 it into where it would be on there. 14 MS. ZETTLER: I guess I'm a little confused. 15 Why is it reported on here that this is, say, Question 16, 16 when on the other test it's Question 11? 17 DOCTOR BUCHHOLZ: Well, because the questions 18 are mixed up. They're put in a different order on here. You 19 want to know why they did that? 20 MS. ZETTLER: Okay. Sure. 21 DOCTOR BUCHHOLZ: They were in business. They 22 had their own business for, you know, marketing the MMPI. 23 People aren't allowed to do that anymore. NCS holds the 24 copyright and they don't let anybody do that. But in the past 25 these people had their own business, they had their own tests, 9 1 their own books and they sold this material. And they're the 2 only people that could score it. It was a way of protecting 3 their own business. 4 MS. ZETTLER: All right. But let's talk about 5 from a practical standpoint. When Mr. Wesbecker was taking 6 this test -- 7 DOCTOR BUCHHOLZ: He used a different test book. 8 He didn't use the test book that we have available. It was a 9 special test book. 10 MS. ZETTLER: Okay. But if you look at the 11 normal test book and you look up Question 33, Question 33 in 12 the normal book is, "I have had very peculiar and strange 13 experiences." 14 DOCTOR BUCHHOLZ: Okay. In theory, then, if we 15 look at Item 33 here, that would be Item 21 on the test book 16 that he looked at. 17 MS. ZETTLER: But my question is, is why is it 18 printed out as Question 33 if it's really another question? 19 DOCTOR BUCHHOLZ: Okay. That question is 20 addressed better than I can state it, in this letter. "We 21 have not programmed the item numbers used by Roche for two 22 reasons." And this is directly answering the question why 23 didn't they just print the Roche numbers here, the one with 24 those questions. "First, as mentioned by Doctor Jolosky and 25 myself in our letter detailing the change from Roche to NCS 10 1 Interpreting Scoring Systems, Roche materials are no longer 2 being sold. Thus, the Roche item order is rapidly becoming 3 obsolete. Furthermore, as noted above, we print the item 4 numbers that are considered standard. The Group Form item 5 numbers are employed in all MMPI textbooks and in most journal 6 articles dealing with the test. Therefore, the numbers we 7 employ are likely to be most helpful to you. We regret any 8 inconvenience this has caused you." 9 MS. ZETTLER: Where is the other letter that 10 they mentioned in here? 11 DOCTOR BUCHHOLZ: I don't know. That was 12 probably one that was sent out many years ago. 13 MR. SMITH: Are you saying this is just a form 14 letter here? 15 DOCTOR BUCHHOLZ: Yeah. This is not a personal 16 letter to me. This is what they send out. Because whenever 17 anybody has this problem, they send out this stuff. 18 MS. ZETTLER: Another question I had about this 19 is if you look at the front of this you have two different 20 fax -- not on your copy, but on my copy, it's got a fax it 21 looks like to you. 22 DOCTOR BUCHHOLZ: That's my number, that's my 23 phone number. 24 MS. ZETTLER: Is that a fax coming to you? 25 DOCTOR BUCHHOLZ: Yeah. This was faxed to me. 11 1 MS. ZETTLER: Okay. Where's the first page? 2 DOCTOR BUCHHOLZ: Page 2. Page 2. 3 MS. ZETTLER: I mean, is there something missing 4 from this, Doctor, that you can note, if you know? And when 5 I'm saying "this," I mean Defendant's Exhibit 472. 6 DOCTOR BUCHHOLZ: Yeah. I understand. I'm 7 thinking. 8 MS. ZETTLER: Do you mind if I take a look at 9 this? 10 DOCTOR BUCHHOLZ: No. Wait a minute. No. No. 11 Yeah. This was -- okay. Where's my copy? See, my copy -- I 12 faxed this to Mr. Stopher's office, so that's why my phone 13 number is printed on here. And when I sent this to Mr. 14 Stopher I had a cover sheet -- I had my cover sheet on it -- I 15 may or may not still have. This is the page there. That's 16 Page 1. Because my secretary faxed this whole thing like this 17 to Mr. Stopher and that's how it got entered as an exhibit. 18 But this is what I got from NCS, this endless range of faxes 19 in here. 20 MS. ZETTLER: Who did you talk to at NCS? 21 DOCTOR BUCHHOLZ: I talked to several people. 22 The first person I talked to was this Sallie Duncan, she was 23 the person who scored -- who did the actual scoring of this 24 for me, and then I called up and said I wanted the items and 25 they sent me to another department, and then Julie Godfrey was 12 1 the one who took it from there. I didn't actually speak with 2 her, somebody else in my office did. One of my assistants did 3 that. 4 MR. SMITH: Well, let me ask you this -- 5 DOCTOR BUCHHOLZ: Again, I have no opinion about 6 the content of these things. It's just kind of a routine kind 7 of a scoring problem. 8 MR. SMITH: In connection with the test you did, 9 there is a question -- 10 DOCTOR BUCHHOLZ: The numbers should match up 11 for what I did. 12 MR. SMITH: But there is no critical item 13 listing on this one that was sent back? 14 DOCTOR BUCHHOLZ: Well, when I did the test I 15 didn't have it computer scored. I did it personally myself. 16 I did this in my office. I took this answer sheet which you 17 can see is different from his and, you know, those numbers 18 should correspond to these. And I made up my own profile, and 19 this is all that exists for my evaluation. So I take the 20 place of the computer in this process. So this was not sent 21 to NCS for scoring. And you could do that if you wanted and 22 see if they agree with me. I'm not familiar with -- see, 23 that's yet another answer sheet. So you can see there are 24 different kinds of answer sheets. 25 MS. ZETTLER: I think that's just an example. 13 1 DOCTOR BUCHHOLZ: I mean, this is one, and this 2 was mine, this was a different type, and then there was this 3 one here, which is yet a third type of an answer sheet. 4 MR. SMITH: Let's see. I thought we had the 5 actual answers. 6 DOCTOR BUCHHOLZ: Well, this is my actual answer 7 sheet. 8 MR. SMITH: Yeah. Like here. 9 DOCTOR BUCHHOLZ: Somebody else may have written 10 them out or something. Those are my materials there. 11 MR. STOPHER: Yeah. Let's don't get this mixed 12 up. 13 MR. SMITH: This is what you did, this was 14 attached as a copy to your deposition? 15 DOCTOR BUCHHOLZ: That's mine. I did that 16 personally. 17 MR. SMITH: And this is the answer sheet -- 18 DOCTOR BUCHHOLZ: When he took it in '87. 19 MR. SMITH: When he took it in '87 for this 20 booklet; is that right? 21 DOCTOR BUCHHOLZ: Yes. 22 MR. SMITH: So we know about what you did in 23 '87, that's not a problem; right? I mean, you're not 24 concerned about the validity or the -- not necessarily the 25 validity, but the accuracy of the answers to your test? 14 1 DOCTOR BUCHHOLZ: No. 2 MR. SMITH: The question is whether or not the 3 answers to the '83 test are valid; correct? 4 DOCTOR BUCHHOLZ: Yes. And again, I didn't even 5 look at the critical items. I don't know what they say. I'm 6 just kind of being the messenger here conveying this 7 information about this kind of scoring problem. 8 MS. ZETTLER: Do you have a copy of the other 9 booklet? 10 DOCTOR BUCHHOLZ: No. I couldn't find one. I 11 don't think they exist. NCS didn't have one. I asked them. 12 MS. ZETTLER: How about this booklet that they 13 cite here, Fowler, R. D., The Clinical Use of the Automated 14 MMPI? 15 DOCTOR BUCHHOLZ: That book exists. I couldn't 16 find one. I ordered one, it will be probably two weeks before 17 it gets here in the library alone. Unless you want to call 18 this -- he is president of the NPA, you can call and get it. 19 MS. ZETTLER: When it says automated MMPI, is 20 that some sort of computer? 21 DOCTOR BUCHHOLZ: Yeah. That's the computer 22 thing, and that's what we're dealing with here is these 23 computer-generated reports. These are computer-generated 24 reports. 25 MS. ZETTLER: Do you have any other documents in 15 1 your file, Doctor, regarding this issue besides what you 2 showed us? 3 DOCTOR BUCHHOLZ: This issue? No. That's it. 4 MS. ZETTLER: Do you have any correspondence 5 between Mr. Stopher and yourself? 6 DOCTOR BUCHHOLZ: About this issue, that's the 7 only correspondence. I asked her to send me the stuff, she 8 sent it. 9 MS. ZETTLER: Did you speak with Mr. Stopher or 10 any other attorney for Lilly on this issue? 11 DOCTOR BUCHHOLZ: After this, you know, I got 12 this information, I met with Mr. Stopher and explained it to 13 him just the way I've explained it to you. 14 MR. SMITH: Did he understand it? 15 MS. ZETTLER: When did you meet with him? 16 DOCTOR BUCHHOLZ: It was last Friday. 17 MS. ZETTLER: The client number that's on this 18 new report is 14181, and the client number on the old report 19 is 0477 something, I believe. 477735. 20 DOCTOR BUCHHOLZ: I think that number refers to 21 the doctor because the client -- this number here refers to me 22 because I'm the one that has to pay for this. 23 MS. ZETTLER: Okay. Do you have the same client 24 number as whoever it was that administered this original test 25 because it's the same? 16 1 DOCTOR BUCHHOLZ: No. See that's where they got 2 that number. 3 MS. ZETTLER: Are you connected in any way to 4 Our Lady of Peace? 5 DOCTOR BUCHHOLZ: Yes. 6 MS. ZETTLER: Okay. Could that be their number? 7 DOCTOR BUCHHOLZ: I don't think so, no. See, 8 all I did was I sent them this sheet and there's no name on it 9 or anything. Well, there is a name. It says Doctor Senler, 10 but that's not on the report. So I don't know. I don't know 11 where they got the number. But, I mean, if you want to send 12 this to NCS, they'll send you back the same -- you'll just get 13 the identical report. 14 MR. SMITH: But you had them rerun it? 15 DOCTOR BUCHHOLZ: They reran it and they 16 rescored it again. And it's kind of amazing you got the 17 identical report 14 years later or 10 years later or however 18 many years it is. I was surprised. I thought they would have 19 changed the software or something. It's just identical. So 20 it verifies the validity of this in a couple of ways. For one 21 thing, you know, you score this and you get the same report, 22 or you can do it -- and now we have the key and you can do it 23 manually and match up the critical items; either way the thing 24 is validated. 25 MS. ZETTLER: But it's your understanding that 17 1 this report, even the new one was run through a computer, 2 also, correct? 3 DOCTOR BUCHHOLZ: Yes. And that's this report 4 right here. 5 MS. ZETTLER: Did they tell you that they still 6 have the software to do the conversions with this? 7 DOCTOR BUCHHOLZ: Yes. And they're apparently 8 the only people in the world that can do it, as far as I know. 9 MS. ZETTLER: Are there any other forms of the 10 MMPI that you're aware of between this form -- 11 DOCTOR BUCHHOLZ: There's only one other form, 12 and actually you have that answer sheet. There's the Form R. 13 There's the Group Form, which you have. That's the Group Form 14 booklet. But the answer sheet that you had on there was a 15 Form R answer sheet. So this answer sheet really isn't for 16 this booklet. 17 MS. ZETTLER: And when you say "this," you're 18 talking about the answer sheet that's connected to the actual 19 MMPI booklet that you have? 20 DOCTOR BUCHHOLZ: Yes. I dont know where -- 21 MR. SMITH: This is the answer sheet for that 22 booklet, which is the answer sheet that you administered? 23 DOCTOR BUCHHOLZ: Yes. That was the one I 24 administered. This answer sheet has different numbers than 25 the numbers in this booklet. So this does not go with this 18 1 booklet. I dont know where they got it, but... 2 MR. SMITH: But this one does? 3 DOCTOR BUCHHOLZ: Yeah. That one does. You'd 4 have the same problem if you used this answer sheet as if you 5 used this one. They wouldn't match up with this test booklet. 6 MR. SMITH: Okay. 7 DOCTOR BUCHHOLZ: They don't do that anymore 8 because just of this problem. Now they're all the same, but 9 it took some time for them to realize that it wasn't such a 10 good idea to have so many different forms floating around. 11 MS. ZETTLER: Besides Sallie Duncan and Julie 12 Godfrey, did you talk to anybody else at NCS? 13 DOCTOR BUCHHOLZ: I talked to the phone 14 operator. No. Nobody in particular. 15 MS. ZETTLER: Are these women, if you know, 16 psychologists? 17 DOCTOR BUCHHOLZ: I don't know their training. 18 They work for NCS and they're probably not psychologists. 19 They're probably trained -- Julie Godrey works in scoring -- 20 no. Sallie Duncan works in the scoring department and they're 21 each familiar with one specific issue of this aspect of this 22 but not... 23 MS. ZETTLER: You never talked to Kevin Moreland 24 or Doctor Joloski? 25 DOCTOR BUCHHOLZ: My assistant in the office 19 1 talked with somebody that was a male about this, and I suspect 2 it was Doctor Moreland, but I don't know. They had one copy 3 of this book in their file and they weren't likely to -- 4 willing to send it to us, but they sent us the Xerox. 5 Personally I did not speak to anyone else. 6 MR. SMITH: Okay. 7 MS. ZETTLER: Anything else? No. Okay. 8 Thanks, Doctor. 9 (VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION CONCLUDED; DOCTOR 10 BUCCHOLZ LEAVES CHAMBERS AND JUDGE POTTER 11 ENTERS CHAMBERS) 12 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. You've had an opportunity 13 to, I guess in effect, take a brief deposition of Doctor 14 Buchholz. Is there any motions you want to make before we 15 continue the case and he takes the stand in a half an hour or 16 so? 17 MR. SMITH: Yes, Your Honor. Apparently what 18 Doctor Buchholz did was have the 1983 MMPI rerun and tried to 19 explain how the critical item inventory came out exactly the 20 same as it was. This is new material with a new number and 21 was -- than was originally run. It is not authenticated. 22 There is nobody that can identify these documents as being 23 accurate. 24 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher. 25 MR. STOPHER: Judge, as Doctor Buchholz just 20 1 explained to them, the test in 1983 was done on a document 2 that's called the Roche. 3 JUDGE POTTER: And it says on the top of it 4 Roche? 5 MR. STOPHER: Yes, it does. 6 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. 7 MR. STOPHER: And what the Roche test did, as he 8 just explained, is they took, for example, Question No. 28 on 9 the standard MMPI and they renumbered it and gave it as 10 Question No. 240. Then when they did the report back to the 11 referring physician, they changed the number from 240 back to 12 the standard number 28. He has verified the validity of that 13 1983 report in two ways. Number One, he has produced for 14 them, which they have and which I have as well, the conversion 15 table that shows what the standard question or what the number 16 was on the standard test and what it is on the Roche test. 17 And the conversion table -- 18 JUDGE POTTER: I guess RSPI test book is Roche 19 Personality something Inventory? 20 MR. STOPHER: Yes, sir. Psychiatric or Public 21 Institute or something like that. So you can verify it 22 manually. In other words, you can go to the questions and 23 convert it and come up with the same answers that are 24 identical to those on the critical item listing. The second 25 thing he did was send them Mr. Wesbecker's test score answers 21 1 from 1983 and asked them to rescore it, and they sent the same 2 critical item listing that was generated in 1983. It's 3 identical word for word. So it verifies the fact that the 4 answer sheet does match up in 1983 with the critical item 5 listing. And it can be checked manually. 6 JUDGE POTTER: All right. How did he obtain 7 these two documents? I assume he wrote somebody or called 8 somebody? 9 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, there's only -- as he 10 just testified, there's only one institute in the world that 11 does these anymore. This was a company -- this Roche 12 Institute, as he just explained, was in business for a short 13 period of time, and they wanted to have a testing numbering 14 system that would be kind of proprietary and unique to them, 15 as is explained in that letter that he's produced. So what he 16 did was send the raw data to the only recognized and competent 17 scoring service in the world that still does these and that's 18 NCS at Madison, Wisconsin. So he sent the raw data to them 19 and got this information from them. They are the reliable 20 source. 21 JUDGE POTTER: And where did he get -- and I 22 assume he talked to them on the telephone or he -- 23 MR. STOPHER: Yes, sir. As he just explained, 24 he talked to them on the phone, telefaxed them Mr. Wesbecker's 25 questions. He got back the scoring sheet, which is there as 22 1 an exhibit, and these are his fax transmittals that are part 2 of this exhibit, Judge. 3 JUDGE POTTER: All right. Mr. Smith, what do 4 you want to say? 5 MR. SMITH: Well, the letter here is not dated. 6 It's not authenticated in any way. Obviously, for him to 7 explain this would require him to testify concerning what he 8 was told, what he's seen, which would all be hearsay. He did 9 not administer this test. He, before he made this inquiry, 10 had no personal knowledge concerning how these matters were 11 scored. 12 JUDGE POTTER: I'm sorry. I thought he did 13 administer the test back in 1980 -- 14 MR. SMITH: No. He administered a test in '87, 15 but he did not administer the test that is incorrect in 1983. 16 That was done by Doctor Leventhal. 17 MR. STOPHER: No. It was not done by Doctor 18 Leventhal. 19 MR. SMITH: Well, whoever, it was done by some 20 other doctor. 21 MR. STOPHER: We don't know who and -- 22 JUDGE POTTER: Wait. Wait. Continue. I 23 thought he had done this test himself. 24 MR. SMITH: No. What happened was when this 25 question arose at trial with Doctor Greist, Mr. Stopher sent 23 1 this old test that was administered to doctor -- in 1983, to 2 Doctor Buchholz and asked Doctor Buchholz to investigate why 3 there was this irregularity, correct, in the answers and the 4 questions. 5 MR. STOPHER: That's not what he just testified 6 to. 7 MR. SMITH: But Doctor Buchholz did not 8 administer the test in '83. 9 JUDGE POTTER: All right. 10 MR. STOPHER: He's just verified it by rescoring 11 it, and it can be checked manually if there's any doubt in 12 anybody's mind. 13 JUDGE POTTER: All right. Just for my own 14 information, how did this thing creep in the file in the first 15 place, it just showed up in the hospital record? 16 MR. STOPHER: Yes, sir. It is in the exhibits 17 that were produced yesterday as part of Dr. Senler's records 18 on Mr. Wesbecker. 19 JUDGE POTTER: And in 1981 nobody asked Doctor 20 Senler -- or 1991 or whenever his deposition was taken nobody 21 really -- 22 MR. STOPHER: It was not an issue then. It only 23 became an issue in the trial and it came as a surprise 24 obviously to me, as I've explained to you and everybody else. 25 And the presumption is now that there's something wrong and 24 1 that somehow this has been misrepresented by me and other 2 people, including Doctor Greist. In fact, what he has done is 3 rescore this and have it rescored, and it can be checked 4 manually to prove that it is in fact accurate and that they do 5 match up. 6 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith's objection, if I 7 understand it right, that if you called Sallie Duncan from NCS 8 or Judy (sic) Godfrey from NCS live, he wouldn't have an 9 objection because these are people that grade these things and 10 they could say this is the true test book, this is what I do, 11 and what do you say to the fact -- I'm sorry, maybe I 12 misunderstood it, Mr. Smith. If they called somebody from NCS 13 that this is what they do is grade these tests and they say, 14 "Well, we look up in the left-hand corner and we see it's a 15 Roche and we know how they're numbered, and the way they're 16 numbered this comes out this way, although the numbers don't 17 match up the results are correct," what objection would you 18 have to this Duncan or Ms. Godfrey or whoever, a qualified 19 person from NCS coming down here as a live witness? 20 MR. SMITH: Because NCS didn't do the original 21 test. 22 JUDGE POTTER: But, I mean, I don't see that 23 that has anything to do with it because what we're dealing 24 with is an answer sheet, and whether they're the right -- 25 quote, right answers on the answer sheet. 25 1 MR. SMITH: I guess it's a question of matching 2 the questions up to the answers. As it now stands, the 3 questions and the answers in the exhibit that's in evidence do 4 not match. 5 JUDGE POTTER: Right. 6 MR. SMITH: And in order to explain this, this 7 witness can't explain this without -- because he didn't 8 administer the test. He doesn't have any personal knowledge. 9 JUDGE POTTER: Suppose he administered the test. 10 All he would know -- all he'd be able to say was, "I sat Mr. 11 Wesbecker down in a room, I put this sheet of paper in front 12 of him, I said, 'Here are the questions, here's the answer 13 sheet. Put the black marks on it.' And after he was through 14 I collected it up, put it in first-class postage, sent it to 15 whatever Roche was or wherever you sent them back then and 16 this thing came back to me in the mail." That's all the 17 person that administered the test could say. 18 MR. SMITH: But apparently it's a different 19 booklet. The Question 231 in Booklet A is Question 23 in 20 Booklet B. 21 JUDGE POTTER: Right. 22 MR. SMITH: And we don't have that booklet. We 23 don't have the original booklet. 24 JUDGE POTTER: Right. The person that 25 administered the test probably doesn't have the original 26 1 booklet. I mean, they have one booklet and they show it to 2 every patient and the only thing they keep relating to that 3 patient is the answer sheet. 4 I'm going to rule that the fact that this person 5 did not administer the test does not mean he can't comment on 6 it. It's kind of like a doctor coming in and reviewing the 7 X-rays and the EKGs and whatnot. And he didn't administer 8 them but he looks at them all and he says, "Based on these 9 pieces of paper, I believe XYZ." And this guy is coming in 10 and saying, "Looking at this answer sheet, I can tell you why 11 this result is correct." The question then becomes may he 12 rely on hearsay that comes from NCS. Assuming that he is 13 prepared to testify that NCS, who they are and what they are 14 and they're reliable and they're used in the business and that 15 it's a part of the clinical psychologists' trade to use them, 16 they mail the test off, they mail it back, I'm going to allow 17 him to use the hearsay. I mean, this is no more hearsay than 18 the original answer was. And if I had to pick one of these 19 exceptions, I guess I'd go with sort of a modified learned 20 treatise. Maybe a record of a regularly conducted activity 21 plus a dose of expert witnesses being able to rely on things 22 that are normally relied on by experts. 23 MR. SMITH: I'm assuming he's not going to be 24 able to express an opinion since he didn't administer that 25 test? 27 1 JUDGE POTTER: Well, I think he's not going to 2 be able to express an opinion beyond -- he dealt with the guy; 3 right? 4 MR. STOPHER: Yes, sir. 5 MR. SMITH: He administered his own test four 6 years later. Obviously -- 7 JUDGE POTTER: He can talk about his own test, 8 that kind of stuff. As far as this goes, he is only allowed 9 to testify because it's a surprise, he wasn't listed, and he 10 can explain what went wrong with the prior test and then he 11 can go on with his testimony as if this had never happened. 12 He's really a two-part witness. He's a fact witness about his 13 own treatment and then he's an expert to explain the glitch in 14 the '83 test. 15 (HEARING IN CHAMBERS CONCLUDED; THE FOLLOWING 16 PROCEEDINGS OCCURRED IN OPEN COURT) 17 SHERIFF CECIL: All rise. The Honorable Judge 18 John Potter is now presiding. All jurors are present. Court 19 is now in session. 20 JUDGE POTTER: Please be seated. Ladies and 21 gentlemen of the jury, did any of you-all have any difficulty 22 observing the admonition about not letting anybody talk to you 23 about this case? How about you, Mr. Hollifield? 24 JUROR HOLLIFIELD: No problem. I didn't have 25 any difficulty. 28 1 JUDGE POTTER: Let me apologize to you-all. 2 Those of you that get here early know that frequently the 3 attorneys and myself get in here early in the morning, 4 sometimes half an hour, sometimes an hour, sometimes more than 5 that, to try and deal with things that need to be dealt with 6 so that we can start right at 9:00. We had planned to be here 7 at 8:30, and it just slipped my mind. That's why we're 8 starting a half hour late. They were here at 8:30, and when I 9 breezeed in at quarter of nine thinking we had nothing on the 10 docket, so the delay is 100 percent my fault. 11 Mr. Stopher, you want to continue with your 12 deposition examination of Doctor Schramm? 13 MR. STOPHER: Yes, Judge. Thank you. This is 14 the continuation of the deposition of Doctor Theodore Schramm 15 that was taken on October 23, 1991. I think it actually 16 begins, Steve, on Page 46, Line 25. 17 Q. You mentioned that in your group therapy session 18 there was a person designated as a CS? 19 A. Those are the initials of my co-therapist, Carol 20 Stuecker of Stuecker and Associates. 21 Q. Carol Stuecker. Was she present in all the 22 group sessions that were attended by Mr. Wesbecker that you 23 conducted? 24 A. I believe so, or reference would have been made 25 to the absence of one of the other therapists. 29 1 Q. I believe you indicated that she took notes 2 during the session? 3 A. No. These are notes which one of us will 4 dictate after we discuss the session in the other room after 5 we have left the patients, the patients have left the office. 6 Q. And those notes that follow the sessions are 7 included in your records that we discussed today? 8 A. Right. They're not verbatim notes; they're 9 impressions, they're hypotheses. 10 Q. Is Ms. Stuecker -- what are her qualifications? 11 A. She is a licensed clinical social worker. 12 Q. Is she still practicing? Is she still in 13 Louisville? 14 A. She's still in Louisville. 15 Q. The nursing assessment that you were asked 16 about, do you recall ever seeing that? 17 A. I scanned it, I'm sure. I usually read all my 18 charts. 19 Q. Is that your standard procedure when the nurse 20 in the hospital makes these types of observation on this form? 21 A. Actually, these are for her own use and she 22 brings up what she has discovered in our treatment planning 23 conference. 24 Q. Do you have a copy of those notes that you 25 transferred on to the next physician that was treating Mr. -- 30 1 A. No. These are appended to the chart. 2 Q. He never really had a copy of these -- 3 A. No. Those -- 4 Q. -- outside of the hospital? 5 A. Those don't come into my possession in this 6 office. They stay as part of the hospital records. 7 Q. You never had a copy of those in your office? 8 A. No, sir. 9 Q. You indicated that you passed along a series of 10 documents to the next physician treating Mr. Wesbecker. Who 11 was that physician? 12 A. I received a release of information signed by 13 Mr. Wesbecker asking to transfer my office records to Doctor 14 Coleman. 15 Q. You transferred what was in your possession in 16 your office to Doctor Coleman; correct? 17 A. Right. Which he already had access to, except 18 the group therapy notes and my intake note. Everything else 19 was part of the hospital records. 20 Q. At any time during the course of your dealings 21 or course of treatment of Mr. Wesbecker, did he ever in your 22 presence make a specific threat against any individual or 23 group of individuals? 24 A. Not a specific threat. Generally a desire to 25 get some redress from his employer. 31 1 Q. Is that your impression from statements that he 2 made or did he make some statements in which he said, "I want 3 some redress"? 4 A. That was my impression from what he said. 5 Q. Are you able to describe that impression or 6 explain that impression to us in any more detail? 7 A. I don't have any detailed notes. It's just from 8 memory. 9 Q. Do you have any memory as to who in your 10 impression he desired redress from? 11 A. Not particularly, except that he mentioned the 12 office. 13 Q. You mentioned I believe that Joseph Wesbecker 14 spoke to you about three different suicide attempts; is that 15 correct? 16 A. They came up in the course of taking the 17 history. 18 Q. Did they also come up in the group therapy 19 sessions? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Okay. 22 A. Now, group therapy sessions, Counsel, we deal 23 with the here and now, the existential reality of what's going 24 on in here. 25 Q. Your recollection is, then, that he did not 32 1 speak anything about past suicide attempts? 2 A. He really didn't say much in group sessions. 3 Q. Was tight-lipped? 4 A. Tight-lipped. 5 Q. In the session with you, then, did you determine 6 how recent those suicide attempts were? 7 A. Only what my notes say. Must be in the hospital 8 notes. I don't think I dated those, if that's what you're 9 asking. 10 Q. Did you follow up with him about those suicide 11 attempts? Did you get into depth with him on those? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Did he mention or did you talk to anybody else 14 that corroborated those statements by him -- 15 A. No. 16 Q. -- that he attempted suicide three times? 17 A. I took him at his word. 18 Q. Okay. And upon admission, I notice you 19 testified that there was an open ward and I guess a closed 20 ward; is that correct? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And you indicate he went to the open side? 23 A. No. He was admitted to the closed unit because 24 of the intensity of his depression. As he improved, we 25 transferred him to the open unit, again, only with his 33 1 consent. 2 Q. During his hospitalization, was he on any kind 3 of special suicide watch? 4 A. No. He was just on group privileges, which is 5 not a special suicide watch. Let me check my records here, 6 but I don't recall having ordered suicide precautions. No, I 7 did not. 8 Q. Did you feel that he was a danger to himself at 9 that time? 10 A. At that point, no. 11 Q. How about to others? 12 A. At that point, no. 13 Q. At any time during your treatment of Joseph 14 Wesbecker, did you feel that he was a danger to himself? 15 A. Not in terms of suicide, no. 16 Q. At any time during your treatment of him, did 17 you feel that he was a danger to someone else? 18 A. He talked about his anger, but he did not seem 19 to have any plan of action to discharge that anger. 20 Q. Did he mention to you any homicidal thoughts? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Doctor, on the case history outline you 23 mentioned that he allegedly was a manic-depressive. Did you 24 determine if he was a manic-depressive or not? 25 A. If you'll look at the neurologicals and the 34 1 personality evaluation, I believe Doctor Buchholz supports the 2 diagnostic impression of manic-depressive disorder. 3 Q. And do you concur with that diagnosis? 4 A. I did at that time, yes. See, I discharged him 5 with a diagnosis of dysthymic disorder, which is a 6 nonpsychotic type of depression. Manic-depressive disorder 7 usually refers to a psychotic type of disorder. He was not 8 psychotic at any time that I knew him. 9 Q. But it confuses me a little bit because you say 10 that you do concur that he was manic-depressive? 11 A. He had -- we use that not so much as a rigid 12 diagnosis but as a functional description of mood changes, 13 mood swing disease. Sometimes psychotic proportions, 14 sometimes -- most of it is at a neurotic level. 15 Q. And this was at a neurotic level? 16 A. It was not psychotic at that point. 17 Q. Would you tell us what manifestations he had of 18 the mood swings or the manic state? 19 A. The hyper -- the high level of energy devoted to 20 activity. He was constantly -- he was restless. 21 Q. Doctor, also in the case history outline, it 22 indicated that he was concerned he might be overmedicated. 23 Did you determine that he was overmedicated? 24 A. Yes. We ran levels. He was not overmedicated. 25 Q. And there's a mention of a low tolerance to 35 1 noise in the workplace. What significance did you attach to 2 that? 3 A. Well, he was sensitive to noise. I could 4 imagine myself in a printing establishment with all the 5 shuddering, shaking, clashing machinery. It's a noisy place, 6 I'm sure. 7 Q. Is this sensitivity to noise or low tolerance to 8 noise, is that peculiar to manic-depressives or depressed 9 people? 10 A. It's peculiar to people who are hypersensitive. 11 I mean, you don't attach a diagnosis to that. 12 Q. But it is peculiar to people that are 13 hypersensitive? 14 A. Yes. I myself don't like noisy places. 15 Q. He complained of toluene exposure. Did your 16 diagnosis and treatment reveal anything concerning -- 17 A. We were unable to get a toluene level. Toluene, 18 as you know, is a highly volatile solvent, which may have some 19 toxic effects. 20 Q. During your treatment of him, you did not deal 21 with that; is that correct? 22 A. I tried to get a toluene level, but we weren't 23 able to get one. I don't think it's reported back in the 24 laboratory data at all. Oh, negative in serum. Detection 25 limit, 0.5 micrograms per milliliters, so there was no toluene 36 1 in his blood. 2 Q. So that finding of no toluene in his blood was 3 consistent with the rest of your diagnosis? 4 A. It wasn't consistent with anything. It was just 5 a finding that he was afraid that he had been intoxicated on 6 toluene poisoning. It was at some point during his work. At 7 the time the serum was drawn, there was no toluene. And the 8 blood test only shows what's going on at the moment the needle 9 enters to sample the blood. 10 Q. Doctor, you mentioned I believe mood swings and 11 manic sometimes, depressed sometimes. Would you be able to 12 say whether he spent more time depressed or more time in the 13 manic stage during your treatment of him? 14 A. I think from the nature of my treatment with 15 imipramine, Tofranil, which is a tricyclic antidepressant, it 16 would go without saying that I considered him depressed. 17 Q. Was he also continued on the lithium during this 18 time? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. What was the purpose of that? 21 A. As I explained before, to stabilize him. 22 Q. Does that stabilize the manic aspects of -- 23 A. It stabilizes the whole dysthymic disorder, both 24 levels of mood swing. 25 Q. In the case history outline again, "Lately he 37 1 felt that medications were causing him side effects, which 2 sedated him or were dangerous for him on the job." Did you 3 determine if there were any side effects from his medication? 4 A. He did not appear to be suffering from the side 5 effects, which some of them probably -- there's a whole list 6 of side effects you get out of the PDR with any of these 7 drugs. The tricyclic antidepressants, they include dry mouth, 8 rapid pulse, things on that order. 9 Q. Doctor, on the discharge summary, my typed 10 version of it, on the second-to-last line says that, "Patient 11 needs at least one week closed hospitalization." 12 A. Post. 13 Q. That's supposed to be post? 14 A. Post. It's corrected. 15 Q. Okay. On my copy it isn't. 16 A. The copy I signed was corrected. 17 Q. Did you have any further doctor/patient 18 relationship with Joseph Wesbecker after he left in, what was 19 it, May? 20 A. When he ceased coming to group, my connection 21 with him ceased. 22 Q. And you sent the records to Doctor Coleman? 23 A. Some months later, when he transferred to Doctor 24 Coleman's care. 25 Q. So what was the last date you saw Joseph 38 1 Wesbecker or treated him? 2 A. It's in the group therapy notes. He was present 3 on the 6th, on the 13th, on the 20th of May, and did not see 4 him after the 27th. So the 20th of May was the last meeting, 5 the last time at which I saw him. 6 Q. Had you prescribed this medication or was some 7 other doctor prescribing the lithium and Tofranil? 8 A. When he was under my care, he was using my 9 prescriptions. 10 Q. When was the last time you prescribed any 11 medication? 12 A. Probably when he left the hospital. When he 13 left my care, I assumed I was dismissed by him. 14 Q. And you pinpoint that as to what date, sir? 15 A. The last time I saw him was in group therapy in 16 this very room on the 20th of May, 1987. 17 Q. Subsequent to that time and after he was being 18 treated by Doctor Coleman, did you have conversations with 19 Doctor Coleman about his treatment? 20 A. No, I did not. 21 Q. But there weren't any conversations or contact 22 between -- before September 14th of '89? 23 A. No, sir. 24 Q. Just one other question, Doctor, and I'll move 25 on. You mentioned anxiety. He had signs of anxiety. Where 39 1 does that fit into the manic-depressive cycle? 2 A. Anxiety is just a basically psychophysiologic 3 condition in which in response to a challenge, a stimulus, 4 there's an outpouring of adrenaline. And a decision is made 5 on a psychophysiologic axis whether to fight or to flee, to 6 stay and deal with it or to remove myself from the area. It's 7 a response to norepinephrine and epinephrine being released by 8 the adrenal glands into the bloodstream. 9 Q. How anxious was Joseph Wesbecker? 10 A. I did not do any psychophysiological testing in 11 terms of sweat or heart rate or mouth dryness, so I can't 12 answer that. My clinical impression was that it was chronic 13 anxiety. 14 Q. I'd like to show you to see if -- this is part 15 of the nurses' notes. And is that Barbara -- 16 A. Sheehan. 17 Q. Sheehan? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Barbara Sheehan. And that would have been part 20 of her notes at Our Lady of Peace? 21 A. This is her clinical workup at the time of 22 admission of the patient. These are her notes -- this is 23 her -- this is the nurse's work sheet. 24 Q. It would be your Page 3, Doctor. 25 A. General questions. 40 1 Q. But what I'm going to ask you about, Doctor, is, 2 I just want to go back to this Page 3, Paragraph 4. And he 3 was asked this question and then he would fill this out? 4 A. No. He didn't fill this out. This is Sheehan's 5 recording of his response to her question, as prompted by the 6 work sheet. 7 Q. And the question being, "Have you ever felt like 8 harming someone else?" And he checked, "Yes." And it said, 9 "If Yes, who?" "My foreman." And then -- 10 A. "Any way, at work," right. And this is 11 something he divulged to her but had not divulged to me. 12 Q. Doctor, when you referred earlier in your 13 testimony about one of his themes was getting redress at the 14 office, did you take what he said, the office, as his work? 15 A. I assumed that to be the office at Standard 16 Gravure, yes; I did not think it was this office. 17 Q. Would you say it was clear in your treatment of 18 this patient that the anger and hostility and all the words 19 you used were directed towards the workplace? 20 A. Yes. To the best of my recollection, his anger 21 was focused on the workplace. 22 Q. Did he ever communicate to you that he had 23 discussed his feelings about his work with others at work? 24 A. I have a vague recollection that he did, and he 25 found no resonance, no support at work. I cannot comment -- 41 1 document that. It's a recollection. 2 Q. And in that recollection was that -- 3 MS. ZETTLER: Your Honor, can we be heard on 4 this? 5 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 6 MR. STOPHER: I can't tell whether this was in 7 or out. 8 MS. ZETTLER: This was not designated. This is 9 not designated, Judge. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Myers, was it not designated 11 the first time? 12 MR. MYERS: 62, Line 1 through 21. 13 MR. STOPHER: It goes to the question and then 14 it cuts off at the answer, so I guess it's -- 15 MR. MYERS: The designation is -- 16 MS. ZETTLER: It was not designated before. 17 MR. STOPHER: The answer is on 21. It is 18 designated. 19 MR. MYERS: -- 62, Lines 1 through 21. 20 MR. STOPHER: She doesn't have the line numbers 21 on it. 22 MS. ZETTLER: Okay. That's fine. 23 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 24 MR. STOPHER: Steve, we are to read that 25 question and answer. 42 1 MR. LORE: All right. 2 Q. And in that recollection, was that with the 3 employers at work? 4 A. I think it was with everybody. 5 Q. When you put him in the closed unit there, 6 Joseph Wesbecker in the closed unit of this hospital, he was a 7 psychiatrically sick person, was he not? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. On the item that was read from Page 40 -- 10 MS. ZETTLER: You forgot the rest of his answer, 11 Ed. 12 MR. STOPHER: Oh, I'm sorry. 13 MR. LORE: I'm sorry. Yes. 14 A. Who voluntarily committed himself. 15 Q. On the item that was read from Page 40 by Mr. 16 Bensinger about the fact that Mr. Wesbecker told the nurse 17 that he wanted to kill his foreman at work, are you saying 18 that you did not know about that? 19 A. I heard about it subsequently. 20 Q. When you say subsequently, do you mean after the 21 incident of the shootings at Standard Gravure? 22 A. No. I heard about it during the course of the 23 hospitalization in treatment planning. But we hear lots of 24 threats about, "I'd get that bastard if I could." All right? 25 And many people say this in the intensity of an illness, 43 1 strong feelings of outrage. 2 Q. This is not something, though, that you 3 communicated to anyone at Standard Gravure, is it? 4 A. No. The threat was not made to me. 5 Q. And the records at Our Lady of Peace, without a 6 court order, an employer can't just go in and get them, can 7 they? 8 A. That's correct. 9 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher, do you want to call 10 your next witness? 11 MR. STOPHER: Yes, Your Honor. Doctor Dennis 12 Buchholz. 13 JUDGE POTTER: Sir, would you step down here and 14 raise your right hand, please. 15 16 DENNIS BUCHHOLZ, after first being duly sworn, 17 was examined and testified as follows: 18 19 JUDGE POTTER: Would you please step around, 20 have a seat in the witness box. Would you say your name loud 21 and clearly for the jury and then spell it, please. 22 DOCTOR BUCHHOLZ: My name is Dennis Buchholz. 23 B-U-C-H-H-O-L-Z. 24 25 44 1 EXAMINATION ___________ 2 3 BY_MR._STOPHER: __ ___ ________ 4 Q. Doctor Buchholz, let me ask you, if you would, 5 please, sir, to address the microphone. If you're within 6 about six or eight or ten inches of it, the sound picks up, 7 and I'm afraid if you get much further back, it's difficult to 8 hear. 9 Would you give us your business address, sir? 10 A. My office is in the Heyburn Building, Suite 905, 11 in Louisville. 12 Q. And what is your profession, sir? 13 A. I'm a licensed psychologist. 14 Q. And, briefly, would you tell us what a 15 psychologist is, sir, and particularly as you operate and 16 practice as a psychologist? 17 A. My particular specialty is neuropsychology. 18 Psychologists in general are -- study behavior and the kinds 19 of things that affect behavior. You usually think about 20 psychologists working with people that are having marital 21 problems or perhaps something -- somebody dies in the family 22 and that has an effect on the way they're feeling and the way 23 they act. My particular specialty involves neurological 24 diseases, things like head injury or Alzheimer's disease and 25 how those can affect the way people act. 45 1 Q. Doctor Buchholz, is a psychologist the same 2 thing as a psychiatrist? 3 A. No. I didn't go to medical school. I went to 4 graduate school in psychology and have a Ph.D., and I did two 5 years of postdoctoral work at different institutions to learn 6 my specialty. 7 Q. Doctor Buchholz, does a psychologist prescribe 8 medications? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Would you give us a description, sir, of your 11 educational background? You mentioned very briefly some of it 12 but, if you would, tell us where you went to college and what 13 you studied and when you graduated and bring us from that 14 point up to date. 15 A. I went to Ohio Wesleyan University and I have a 16 Bachelor's Degree with a major in psychology and then I went 17 to Ohio State University and got a Ph.D. in psychology. Then 18 I went to Case Western Reserve University for a year to study 19 neuropsychology, and then I did another year postdoc at Rush 20 University in Chicago. 21 Q. And about when did you complete that 22 postdoctoral work at Rush in Chicago? 23 A. This is a memory test. 24 Q. I have a cheat sheet here if it will help? 25 A. 1980, I think. 46 1 Q. All right, sir. Doctor, would you tell us 2 briefly about your experience from that time to the present 3 time, sir? 4 A. Well, I've -- I worked at the University of 5 South Dakota in the department of psychiatry, and then I moved 6 to Louisville and worked here in the department of neurology 7 at the University of Louisville. And I continue to have 8 appointments in the departments of neurosurgery at the 9 University of Louisville and the department of psychiatry and 10 also the department of psychology here, teaching medical 11 students and graduate students about neuropsychology. I'm 12 board certified in neuropsychology by the American Board of 13 Professional Psychology, and I have a private practice. And 14 most of my time now is spent in private practice seeing 15 patients that are referred to me by different doctors in the 16 community. 17 Q. Have you been a clinical associate professor at 18 the University of Louisville School of Medicine? 19 A. Yes. I still am. 20 Q. And you still teach there on a regular basis or 21 an occasional basis? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Doctor, in connection with your field in 24 psychology, are you certified or licensed? 25 A. Yes. I'm licensed in Kentucky and Indiana. The 47 1 license is a general license. All psychologists have the same 2 license, so there isn't a special license for neuropsychology, 3 just like there isn't a special license for neurology. But I 4 am licensed in two states. 5 Q. And you mentioned earlier that you are board 6 certified. Did I understand correctly? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. What are you board certified in, sir? 9 A. My specific specialty, neuropsychology. 10 Q. And do you have hospital privileges in this 11 area, sir? 12 A. Yes. I have privileges at quite a few 13 hospitals. I often go to the hospital to see patients there, 14 so I have privileges at Our Lady of Peace, the Veterans 15 Hospital, at Jewish, at Jefferson Hospital, Baptist East, 16 different hospitals. 17 Q. Finally, Doctor Buchholz, have you authored 18 articles which have been published in various medical and 19 psychological journals? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Doctor Buchholz, in connection with your 22 practice, have you had an occasion to come into contact with 23 Joseph Wesbecker? 24 A. Yes. I saw him back in 1987. 25 Q. And can you refer to your records, sir, and tell 48 1 us the first contact that you had with him in point of time? 2 A. I saw him April 1st and April 2nd in 1987. 3 Doctor Schramm referred him to me for a psychological 4 evaluation. He was at Our Lady of Peace then. 5 Q. I'm sorry, sir. He was where? 6 A. He was at Our Lady of Peace. 7 Q. Generally, sir, would you tell us on those two 8 days, April 1 and April 2, 1987, in broad outline form, what 9 sort of contact you had with him? 10 A. I talked to Mr. Wesbecker for about a half an 11 hour, did an interview, talked to him about why he was in the 12 hospital, what kind of problems he was having. I gave a list 13 of tests to my assistant to give to Mr. Wesbecker and my 14 assistant gave him the tests, and then I scored up the tests 15 with my assistant and went back and talked to Mr. Wesbecker 16 again about the results, and then I wrote a report for Doctor 17 Schramm. 18 Q. Doctor Buchholz, did you make some notes on this 19 one-half hour interview that you conducted with him? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Do you have those notes there with you today, 22 sir? 23 A. I don't have my original notes, I have my 24 report. 25 Q. All right, sir. Are the notes referred to or 49 1 contained in the report? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. All right, sir. Let me hand you, sir, and if 4 you can verify that that's accurate, a copy of a document 5 that's been marked as Defendant's Exhibit 377. Do you 6 recognize that document, sir? 7 A. That's my report. 8 MR. STOPHER: All right. Your Honor, we'd move 9 the admission of Defendant's Exhibit 377, and ask that a copy 10 be distributed to the members of the jury. 11 MR. SMITH: No objection, Your Honor. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Be admitted. 13 COURT REPORTER: (Hands document to jurors). 14 Q. Doctor Buchholz, would you refer to that 15 document and tell us -- it appears to be categorized and the 16 first category is History; correct? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And is this your record of the interview or the 19 one-half hour interview that you had with him on April 1, 20 1987? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Doctor, would you read that history out loud? 23 A. "Joseph Wesbecker is a 44-year-old white male 24 with a 12th grade education and a 17-year work history as a 25 press operator for Standard Gravure. Mr. Wesbecker lives with 50 1 his ex-wife. They were divorced approximately three years 2 ago. They were separated for about nine months when they 3 moved in together. Mrs. Wesbecker works as a teacher for a 4 beauty academy. 5 "Mr. Wesbecker's history is significant for 6 psychiatric admission at Our Lady of Peace four or five years 7 ago and psychiatric admission at Baptist Hospital Highlands 8 nine years ago. Mr. Wesbecker has a history of depression and 9 suicidal attempts, and he states that he has attempted suicide 10 12 or 15 times. He has attempted suicide with carbon monoxide 11 poisoning, medications and hanging. He states that he has 12 never significantly hurt himself. He said that his worst 13 attempt was taking 40 sleeping pills and 60 antidepressant 14 pills at home. He states that he slept for three days after 15 this, but was not hospitalized medically. He did go in for 16 psychiatric hospitalization at Our Lady of Peace after this. 17 "Mr. Wesbecker has had psychiatric treatment by 18 Doctor Moore recently, but Mr. Wesbecker complained about 19 feeling his medications were sedating and causing him side 20 effects which was dangerous for him on the job. He 21 subsequently contacted Doctor Schramm and was admitted to the 22 hospital. 23 "He was referred for neuropsychological 24 consultation to help clarify his diagnosis and determine the 25 importance of any neuropsychological dysfunction in his 51 1 presentation." 2 Q. Now, sir, the next category is Observations. 3 What does that mean? What does that refer to, sir? 4 A. Well, the first part of the report was pretty 5 much what he told me, and the second part is my observations 6 of what he looked like. 7 Q. All right, sir. Would you go ahead, then, and 8 read the section that's under Observations? 9 A. "Mr. Wesbecker was noted to be a somewhat 10 overweight, neatly-dressed gentleman who appeared to be his 11 stated age. He had a very clipped manner of speech and tended 12 to ramble and digress in giving a history; however, he 13 appeared to have an adequate understanding of events around 14 him and of the purpose of the evaluation. 15 "Mr. Wesbecker complained about toluene exposure 16 at work. He said he has been working with toluene for 17 17 years without a respirator and and he feels this has caused 18 him to have various symptoms, including memory loss, dizziness 19 and blackout spells. These are also the same symptoms which 20 he attributed to medications he was given by Doctor Moore. 21 "Mr. Wesbecker also complained of headache, 22 which he described as beginning in his forehead and sometimes 23 involving the muscles over his eyebrows. This appeared to be 24 a tension headache, which he said was treatable effectively 25 with salicylates. 52 1 "Mr. Wesbecker complained considerably about the 2 demands made on him at work. He states that his supervisor 3 wants him to be the head operator of a folding machine, and 4 Mr. Wesbecker finds this too stressful and demanding. He says 5 that he doesn't think it is worth the $4 per hour extra that 6 he would be paid to do this. He complains about having to do 7 too many things and not being able to get any rest while on 8 this job. Mr. Wesbecker filed a grievance against the foreman 9 at the plant over this issue in October and some resolution 10 was achieved by December, although Mr. Wesbecker is not happy 11 with the outcome. He still periodically has to operate this 12 machine, which he tries to avoid as much as possible. 13 "Mr. Wesbecker complained of being depressed and 14 reported both vegetative and psychological aspects of 15 depression, including some suicidal ideation. 16 "In testing, the patient was cooperative and his 17 profile appears to be valid. 18 Q. Doctor Buchholz, after having read this out 19 loud, can you tell us, first of all, what were the significant 20 observations that you made of Mr. Wesbecker, particularly in 21 connection with the history that he gave you on that date? 22 A. Well, he seemed to be depressed and he seemed to 23 have some concerns on his mind. He was particularly concerned 24 about the situation at work. It really seemed to preoccupy 25 his mind. He was worried about the effects of the toluene and 53 1 the job. He talked about some physical symptoms. It wasn't 2 clear what was causing those symptoms, whether it was the 3 medications he got from Doctor Moore or toluene or maybe some 4 other cause. Those are the sort of issues that came out. 5 Q. Doctor, in connection, then, with the contact 6 that you had with him on April 1 and April 2 -- first of all, 7 how did that come about? How did you happen to be connected 8 with Mr. Wesbecker? 9 A. Doctor Schramm wrote an order in the chart 10 asking for psychological testing by me. 11 Q. And what sort of psychological testing were you 12 to do, sir? 13 A. Neuropsychological testing. That involves tests 14 of memory and concentration, things like that, as well as 15 tests of emotional functioning, personality tests. 16 Q. And did you do those kinds of tests with regard 17 to him, sir? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Would you read the next section, which is 20 entitled Tests Administered? 21 A. The actual tests that I gave Mr. Wesbecker 22 included the Bender-Gestalt Test, Cognitive Screening 23 Examination, MMPI, Trailmaking Test A, Trailmaking Test B, 24 Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale-Revised, and the Wechsler 25 Memory Scale. 54 1 Q. And I think you said that those tests were 2 actually administered by an assistant? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. These are written-type tests, sir? 5 A. Some of them are written. Some of them are 6 tests where you ask the person a question and you write down 7 the answer that he gives you. In some cases, there's a puzzle 8 that he has to put together and you measure how fast he does 9 that. You might read him a story and ask him to tell the 10 story back, those sorts of tests. 11 Q. All right, sir. The written tests, were they 12 scored? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And who did the scoring? 15 A. Either myself or my assistant. 16 Q. All right, sir. Now, would you read, then, the 17 section -- the next section, which is Test Results, which I 18 think probably goes down -- or you tell us where it stops on 19 this report. 20 A. It goes down to the last page where it says 21 Summary. 22 Q. All right, sir. 23 A. "Intellectually, Mr. Wesbecker is in the low 24 average range. His scores were consistently low, with his 25 lowest score on the digit span subtest, which is a measure of 55 1 attention and concentration. His overall scores may 2 underestimate his true functional level because of his 3 impaired attention and concentration; however, there is no 4 indication that he has functioned at a dramatically higher 5 level in the past. 6 "The Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale Subtest 7 Scores: Information, 9; digit span, 5; arithmetic, 9; 8 comprehension, 8; similarities, 6; and his verbal IQ was 86. 9 The performance subtest scores on the WAIS-R: Picture 10 Completion, 15; Picture Arrangement, 7; Block Design, 6; Digit 11 Symbol, 5; Performance IQ, 80; Full Scale IQ, 83." 12 Q. Doctor, let me interrupt you at that point 13 before you go ahead and read the rest of this. On April 1 or 14 April 2, 1987, his full scale IQ was an 83? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. How does that relate, sir, to the population at 17 large? 18 A. Well, on this particular test, a score of 100 is 19 average. A score of 83, consulting my table here, is at the 20 13th percentile, so out of 100 people he would be No. 13. 21 Q. And 87 out of the 100 would have a higher score? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Would you go on, sir, and read the next 24 paragraphs of the report on the testing results. 25 A. "On all other measures of cognitive functioning, 56 1 Mr. Wesbecker showed some variability, although his overall 2 functioning appeared approximately consistent with his low 3 average intellectual level. On the Wechsler Memory Scale, Mr. 4 Wesbecker showed that he was oriented to person, place and 5 time, although he was not able to correctly name the most 6 recent past president. He could count backwards, say the 7 alphabet and count by threes, although he had difficulty 8 repeating a set of digits. He could repeat five digits 9 forwards but only two digits backwards. He showed average 10 recall of story paragraphs, with below average recall of 11 geometric designs and quite poor learning of word pairs over 12 repeated trials." 13 "His subtest scores are: Information, 4; 14 Orientation, 5; Mental Control, 8; Memory Passages, 6; Digits, 15 7; Visual Reproduction, 9; Associate Learning, 8.5; a memory 16 quotient of 86." 17 Q. Can you tell us with regard to the memory 18 quotient how that relates to the population, sir? 19 A. Again, 100 would be average. An 86 is at the 20 18th percentile. 21 Q. Now, just in brief laymen's terms, sir, what's 22 the difference between IQ and MQ? 23 A. The difference is that the memory tests require 24 you to learn something and then remember it and then be tested 25 on it, while the IQ tests don't require you to have that use 57 1 of your memory. So someone might have an IQ of a hundred and 2 if they had Alzheimer's disease, for example, they might have 3 a memory quotient of 50, but their IQ would be unaffected. 4 They just wouldn't be able to remember what was happening. 5 Q. All right, sir. The next paragraph begins with 6 visuospatial. 7 A. "Visuospatial functioning was unimpaired on the 8 Bender-Gestalt test and he showed adequate ability to copy 9 geometric designs." 10 Q. Would you go on, please, sir? 11 A. "Simple manual motor functioning was average on 12 the finger tapping test and Mr. Wesbecker showed the normal 13 pattern of dominant-hand superiority. He obtained a T score 14 of 54 for his right dominant hand and a T score of 53 for his 15 left hand. A T score of 50 is average on this scale. On more 16 complex tests of psychomotor speed, Mr. Wesbecker showed 17 greater difficulty, although performance was still in 18 acceptable limits for someone of his intellectual level. He 19 obtained a T score of 43 on the Trailmaking Test A, which 20 requires simply the ability to connect numbered circles in 21 their proper order. On Trailmaking Test B, he obtained a 22 somewhat low T score of 39. This test requires the ability to 23 alternate numbers and letters in their proper sequence and is 24 believed to measure a patient's ability to scan and keep track 25 of two sequences simultaneously. 58 1 "Basic language functioning was intact and he 2 was able to read and write primer level material, name 3 objects, repeat words and phrases and follow one- and two-step 4 commands. 5 "No deficits were seen in basic stereognosis and 6 praxis and he was able to identify common objects by touch and 7 demonstrate their use. 8 "Personality evaluation of a self-report 9 questionnaire, MMPI, indicated that Mr. Wesbecker has a large 10 number of complaints about psychological functioning at the 11 present time. This may be interpreted either as a "cry for 12 help" or as a deliberate attempt to exaggerate symptomatology. 13 Both of these factors appear to apply to some extent in this 14 case. On the MMPI clinical scales, Mr. Wesbecker showed a 15 prominent elevation on Scale 2, depression. He complains of 16 both vegetative and psychological components of depression 17 with feelings of worthlessness, discouragement and pessimism 18 about the future. Also of clinical significance are 19 elevations on Scales 7 and 8, which indicate a high degree of 20 anxiety with strong feelings of alienation and isolation from 21 others. Mr. Wesbecker appears to be chronically anxious and 22 depressed." 23 Q. Doctor Buchholz, with regard to this last 24 paragraph that you have read, this refers to a questionnaire, 25 I think it's described here as a self-report questionnaire; 59 1 correct, sir? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And you put in parentheses, MMPI? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. What does that stand for, sir? 6 A. Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory. 7 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, I hate to be a pest, 8 but I'm about to freeze to death. I don't know about anybody 9 else. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Well, I got on Mr. Smith this 11 morning because we were so hot yesterday afternoon. 12 MR. SMITH: Not this Mr. Smith, Your Honor. You 13 didn't get on me for that, this morning. 14 JUDGE POTTER: No. Not this Mr. Smith. It's 15 Harold Smith. You're getting fresh air, folks, that's what it 16 is. 17 Go ahead, Mr. Stopher. 18 MR. STOPHER: All right, sir. 19 Doctor Buchholz, in general terms, would you 20 tell us what the MMPI is, sir? 21 A. It's a questionnaire with 566 true and false 22 questions on it about all sorts of different things, and the 23 test has been given to many thousands of people. And there 24 have been norms established on how different groups of people 25 answer the questions, so there's a normal baseline population 60 1 that's used as a reference point. And then there are 2 pathological populations, groups of depressed people, groups 3 of psychotic people, schizophrenic people, and we've looked 4 at -- or the researchers have looked at how these different 5 groups of people usually respond to the questions, and so we 6 can take any person's answers to the question and compare them 7 against another group and see how they match up. 8 Q. And is this the test that was given to Mr. 9 Wesbecker that's referred to here in this paragraph, sir? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Let me hand you a document that's been marked as 12 Defendant's Exhibit 375, and can you identify that for us, 13 please, sir? 14 A. Yes. It's the test booklet for the MMPI, which 15 was given to Mr. Wesbecker. 16 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, we'd move the 17 admission of Defendant's Exhibit 375 and ask that it be 18 distributed. 19 JUDGE POTTER: Be admitted. 20 SHERIFF CECIL: (Hands document to jurors). 21 Q. Doctor Buchholz, again, briefly, does that 22 booklet that I've just handed to you and has been distributed, 23 does it contain the questions that are on the MMPI? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And then does the person taking the test answer 61 1 those questions true or false on an answer sheet? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Let me next hand you a group of documents, sir, 4 that have been marked and identified as Defendant's Exhibit 5 376. And can you tell us what this series of -- I believe 6 it's three pages, sir, what it is? 7 A. Well, the back two pages are copies of the 8 answer sheet that Mr. Wesbecker filled out, and the top page 9 is my scoring of that profile. 10 Q. And did you do that scoring yourself, sir? 11 A. Yes. 12 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, we'd move the 13 introduction of Exhibit 376. 14 MR. SMITH: May I have just a second, Your 15 Honor, to make sure we have the right... 16 MR. STOPHER: Sure. 17 MR. SMITH: Okay. 18 JUDGE POTTER: Be admitted. 19 SHERIFF CECIL: (Hands document to jurors). 20 Q. Now, sir, let me go to the Exhibit 376, which is 21 the chart on top. Do you have that, sir? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And what are the last two pages of that 24 document, sir? 25 A. Those are the actual answers that Mr. Wesbecker 62 1 gave. 2 Q. So I can take, if I understand correctly, 3 Exhibit 375, which is the series of questions, and select a 4 number, a particular number of a question, and then go to the 5 answer sheet and see what answer he gave; is that accurate, 6 sir? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. For example, Question No. 28. 9 A. He answered that "True." 10 Q. The question is: "When someone does me a wrong, 11 I feel I should pay him back if I can just for the principle 12 of the thing"? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And what was his answer, sir? 15 A. "True." 16 Q. Take a look, sir, for example, at Question No. 17 41: "I have had periods of days, weeks or months when I 18 couldn't take care of things because I couldn't get going." 19 How did he answer that one, sir? 20 A. He answered that "True." 21 Q. Question 43: "My sleep is fitful and 22 disturbed." 23 A. "True." 24 Q. Question 238: "I have periods of such great 25 restlessness that I cannot sit long in a chair." 63 1 A. "True." 2 Q. Question 337: "I feel anxiety about something 3 or someone almost all the time." 4 A. "True." 5 Q. Question 506: "I am a high-strung person"? 6 A. "False." 7 Q. Question 555: "I sometimes feel that I am about 8 to go to pieces." 9 A. "True." 10 Q. Question 142: "I certainly feel useless at 11 times." 12 A. "True." 13 Q. Question 39: "At times I feel like smashing 14 things." 15 A. "True." 16 Q. Question 381: "I am often said to be 17 hotheaded." 18 A. "True." 19 Q. Question 33: "I have had very peculiar and 20 strange experiences." 21 A. "False." 22 Q. Question 328: "I find it hard to keep my mind 23 on a task or job." 24 A. "True." 25 Q. In other words, sir, we can go down these list 64 1 of questions and match up to the answers that correspond to 2 the numbers shown here; correct, sir? 3 A. That's right. 4 Q. Now, sir, going back to Page 1 of this same 5 Exhibit No. 376, sir, the chart. Do you have that available 6 there, sir? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Let me ask you, sir, about this chart. And can 9 you tell us generally how it is configured, what's 10 represented, basically, on this chart? 11 A. Well, you can see there's a line on there, a 12 jagged line, and that reflects how Mr. Wesbecker answered the 13 different questions and also how his answers compare with 14 other groups. 15 Q. All right, sir. My copy of this, and I assume 16 everybody else's is a little difficult to read, particularly 17 on the specifics, but it looks to me like in the left-hand 18 column that it goes from it looks like 0 to like 120; am I 19 reading that correctly? 20 A. Yeah. On the -- yes. 21 Q. And is there a section on here that is normal? 22 A. Yeah. On this graph it's 60, right in the 23 middle. 24 Q. Sixty? 25 A. That's -- we're talking about between 50 and 70. 65 1 There are two lines that go across at 50 and 70 that go across 2 the page. That's the normal range of response. 3 Q. Between 50 and 70? 4 A. Yeah. So the scores that are between those two 5 lines are felt to be pretty normal. 6 Q. All right, sir. 7 A. Scores that are above that line, above the 70 8 line are felt to be pathological. 9 Q. What is pathological? 10 A. Things that are abnormal or of concern to 11 psychiatrists, in this case, symptoms that might need 12 psychiatric treatment. 13 Q. Now, sir, in looking at this chart, it appears 14 to -- in addition to the horizontal lines which go across -- 15 and you've identified 50 and 70 as being normal, those are the 16 horizontal lines; correct? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. In addition to the horizontal lines, are there 19 also some vertical lines or scales here? 20 A. Yes. Across the top you can see there's a 21 question mark and an L, an F, and a K, and it goes 1, 2, 3, 22 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 0. And those are the different scales 23 that we look at other than the normal scale that we've already 24 talked about. So you can see that his scores are above the 25 normal line in a couple of areas. The F one is high. Scale 1 66 1 is high; Scale 2 is high; Scale 7 is high; and Scale 8 is 2 high. So those are the ones that were pathological in this 3 case. 4 Q. All right, sir. What is Scale 1? 5 A. Scale 1 is called hypochondriasis, and it 6 reflects a lot of complaints about physical problems; 7 headaches, aches and pains, stomachaches. I didn't look at 8 specifically what he was complaining about, but we know that 9 he was complaining about physical problems more than most 10 people. 11 Q. What is Scale 2, sir? 12 A. Depression. That's obviously his highest scale 13 here and what's the most prominent thing about this profile. 14 He was reporting symptoms very much like people who are 15 clinically depressed. 16 Q. Scale 7, what is that, sir? 17 A. Primarily it shows anxiety, tension, 18 nervousness, that sort of thing. 19 Q. And Scale 8, what is it? 20 A. It reflects usually feelings of alienation and 21 isolation, feeling that he is not a part of things, that he 22 doesn't fit in, doesn't relate to people well, people don't 23 understand him, that sort of thing. 24 Q. Now, sir, the other scales. We've talked about 25 four scales; 1, 2, 7 and 8; correct? 67 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Would you explain to us what Scale 3 is? What 3 does it relate to? 4 A. It usually reflects emotional reactivity and it 5 also relates to concern over physical symptoms. 6 MR. SMITH: I'm sorry, sir. I didn't hear you. 7 JUDGE POTTER: Would you keep your voice up, 8 sir? 9 A. It relates to emotional reactivity and also 10 physical symptoms. So, for example, it's called the hysteria 11 scale. Someone who is very emotional and very reactive to 12 minor problems would get a high score on that scale. 13 Q. What is Scale 4, sir? 14 A. That's referred to as psychopathy, and it 15 reflects primarily antisocial sorts of personality traits. 16 Very often when we test people in jail, we find very high 17 scores on this scale. People with a high score here tend to 18 be impulsive, tend to have trouble with the law, to have no 19 conscience, to not feel that laws are made for them, that sort 20 of thing. 21 Q. Do they have -- if someone scores abnormally 22 high on that scale, do they have any sense of right or wrong? 23 A. That's our best measure that they don't have a 24 good sense of right or wrong. 25 Q. Scale 5, sir, what does it relate to? 68 1 A. That's called the male-female scale. It relates 2 to the issues of sexuality and sexual identity. 3 Q. And, finally, Scale 6, sir. 4 A. Paranoia, concern that other people are 5 interfering with his life. 6 Q. Now, if I understand correctly, on scales 7 three -- well, maybe I missed Scale 9, sir. 8 A. Nine is mania and it reflects energy level. So 9 someone who was very energetic, very active, really 10 pathologically active, they would have a high score on Scale 11 9. Scale 0 is social introversion. If someone is very 12 socially introverted, they would get a high score on that 13 scale. 14 Q. Now, sir, in connection with these scales, 3, 4, 15 5, 6, 9 and 0, how did Mr. Wesbecker score or rate on this 16 particular day? 17 A. They were within normal limits on that day. 18 Q. Doctor, does this test score a long continuum of 19 personality traits or does it relate to a shorter term? 20 A. It's really much more like a snapshot that tells 21 you how he was doing on that particular day. Some of the 22 traits tend to be more enduring, particularly if you look at 23 the patient's history and put it all together. The test 24 itself is -- can vary from day to day, depending on how he's 25 feeling. 69 1 Q. If a person has mood swings, for example, does 2 that affect the performance on any one day on this test? 3 A. Sure. If someone were very energetic on a 4 particular day they might have a high score on Scale 9, and if 5 they were really feeling down they would have a low score. 6 Q. Doctor, going back, now, sir, to the report that 7 you generated in connection with Mr. Wesbecker, would you read 8 the section under Summary? 9 A. "Mr. Wesbecker scores in the low average range 10 on measures of intellectual functioning. There is no 11 indication that he has functioned at a substantially higher 12 level in the past on the absence of comparison baseline data. 13 His scores on other measures of cognitive ability are 14 variable, although generally in the range expected of someone 15 of this intellectual capacity. No definite evidence of brain 16 dysfunction was seen. 17 "Mr. Wesbecker's limited intellectual 18 functioning contributes to his psychiatric picture because of 19 his somewhat limited insight, concrete thinking and difficulty 20 coping with more than one problem at a time. 21 "A personality evaluation shows a slightly 22 exaggerated profile with prominent depression, anxiety and 23 feelings of alienation and isolation. 24 "The current data are available for future 25 comparison and will provide a valuable reference baseline for 70 1 this gentleman if he continues to complain of cognitive 2 difficulties." 3 Q. With regard, sir, to the finding that his 4 limited intellectual functioning contributes to his 5 psychiatric picture because of his somewhat limited insight, 6 concrete thinking and difficulty coping with more than one 7 problem at a time, can you expand on that and tell us what 8 that means in ordinary terms, sir? 9 A. Well, some people are very able to handle very 10 complicated situations. They can deal with a lot of stress. 11 They can handle five things at one time. This gentleman was 12 not that sort of person, according to the data that we got at 13 that time. 14 Q. How would he react to multiple problems or to 15 stress from different sources at one time? 16 A. I think that's reflected in the fact that he had 17 to have psychiatric hospitalization. I think that's exactly 18 what happened, he was stressed out and decompensated and 19 needed to be in a psychiatric hospital. 20 Q. In the next paragraph you make the statement 21 that "A personality evaluation shows a slightly exaggerated 22 profile with prominent depression, anxiety and feelings of 23 alienation and isolation." Can you expand on that again and 24 tell us what it means with regard to Mr. Wesbecker? 25 A. Well, it was evident in his history, this was a 71 1 gentleman that's made numerous suicide attempts. He had been 2 depressed and felt unhappy about things for quite a long time, 3 and his personality profile fit perfectly with that history 4 and the complaints he was presenting with. 5 Q. The statements about depression, that showed up 6 on Scale No. 2? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. The evaluation of anxiety, that's No. 7? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Alienation and isolation are on Scale No. 8; am 11 I correct? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. When you put all of this together, sir, what was 14 the personality profile of Mr. Wesbecker at the time that you 15 tested him on April 1 or 2, 1987, sir? 16 A. He presented as a very unhappy, chronically 17 depressed gentleman with some degree of paranoia described in 18 his reports. Someone with limited coping ability and very 19 prominent depression. 20 Q. Doctor Buchholz, did you have any follow-up with 21 Mr. Wesbecker at any subsequent times for additional testing? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Was that requested by Mr. Wesbecker or by the 24 psychiatrist? 25 A. Not of me. 72 1 Q. Not of you. 2 Your Honor, if we may take the morning break at 3 this time, I think it would be a good breaking point. 4 JUDGE POTTER: All right. You can go out and 5 get warm. Okay. This machinery does the whole building and I 6 think Mr. -- the building manager kind of tries to overplease, 7 so that's why we got cold this morning. 8 As I've told you-all before, do not let anybody 9 communicate with you about this case. Do not discuss it with 10 each other or form or express opinions. We'll take a 11 15-minute recess. 12 (RECESS) 13 SHERIFF CECIL: The jury is now entering. All 14 jurors are present. Court is back in session. 15 JUDGE POTTER: Please be seated. 16 Doctor Buchholz, I'll remind you you're still 17 under oath. 18 Mr. Stopher. 19 Q. Doctor Buchholz, just a few items in summary 20 about the work that you did with regard to Mr. Wesbecker in 21 early April. At the time that you had contact with him, sir, 22 was he psychologically distressed? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. In what way, sir? 25 A. He was quite depressed, quite anxious, quite 73 1 concerned with his health and things going on in the 2 workplace. 3 Q. At the time that you had this contact with him, 4 sir, was he able to reason and think normally? 5 A. No. 6 Q. In what ways was his reasoning or his thinking 7 abnormal? 8 A. Well, his -- you know, his cognitive functioning 9 was impaired. Just in general terms, his memory probably 10 wasn't as good as it would be normally. He wasn't thinking 11 clearly. 12 Q. What do you mean he wasn't thinking clearly, 13 sir? 14 A. Well, he wouldn't be able to remember things as 15 well as normal. When people get depressed, they're 16 preoccupied; they're not able to do their jobs as well as they 17 might or drive a car as well as they might. It's just 18 something that affects the way you function generally. And, 19 you know, I think additionally he had some odd ideas about 20 what was going on at work. And I never did find out what was 21 really going on at work, you know, but the scenario he 22 described didn't seem very rational. So I had the impression 23 that his thinking was somewhat distorted, as well. 24 Q. Was he focused on items at work? 25 A. He was very preoccupied with things at work. 74 1 The toluene issue and the issue about the folder seemed just 2 to come up repeatedly in his conversation. 3 Q. Doctor, with regard to the depression scale, 4 which I think is Scale 2, how did Mr. -- how does that relate 5 to Mr. Wesbecker's feelings about himself? What does that 6 tell us, what you found on this study, about the way he felt 7 about himself? 8 A. One of the main features of depression is a 9 feeling of low self worth, that you're not worth anything and 10 that you're never going to succeed and it's hopeless and no 11 matter what you try it isn't going to work. 12 Q. And was that consistent with your clinical 13 impression of him? 14 A. To some extent, sure. He didn't seem very 15 hopeful about the future and was frustrated by his abilities 16 to solve his problems. 17 Q. You also mentioned and recorded, sir, that he 18 had a pathological score on the anxiety scale, or Scale No. 7; 19 correct, sir? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. What, in terms of observable types of symptoms 22 and evidence of anxiety, was there in his case, sir? 23 A. I'd like to refer to my report and see what I 24 said about that. 25 Q. Yes, sir. 75 1 A. One thing -- one prominent symptom was the issue 2 of headaches. He talked about having headaches, and they 3 sounded to me like a tension headache, which is something 4 that's often associated with anxiety. 5 Q. Was he a tense person? 6 A. I think so, yes. 7 Q. How does anxiety or that sort of tension 8 manifest itself in an individual? 9 A. Well, here, we're particularly talking about a 10 physical symptom where you see muscle tension. People squeeze 11 their muscles harder when they're tense and anxious. 12 Q. Does it have any relationship to feeling jumpy 13 or nervous or uncomfortable? 14 MR. SMITH: Objection, leading. 15 JUDGE POTTER: Sustained. 16 Q. What are the other manifestations of tension and 17 anxiety? 18 A. It's such a common experience, it's funny, it's 19 hard to describe. People -- I feel pretty tense right now. I 20 just described the way I feel. You've described some 21 subjective symptoms of feeling tense, which we've all 22 experienced at times. There's a lot of muscle tension, you 23 may tend to focus your thoughts on one particular issue, you 24 know, your mouth gets dry, your palms get sweaty, those sorts 25 of symptoms. 76 1 Q. Doctor Buchholz, did you feel any hostility in 2 Mr. Wesbecker? 3 A. Yes. I was somewhat concerned about the 4 hostility he expressed towards the workplace, but he was very 5 nonspecific about it, so he was -- seemed very angry at things 6 at work in general, and he certainly has a history of acting 7 out with his -- 8 Q. What do you mean he had a history of acting out? 9 A. His multiple suicide attempts suggest that he 10 saw this as a way of dealing with problems, was to act in this 11 irrational way of attempting to kill himself. And that's not 12 a good sign in people. It suggests that they're likely to do 13 that again in the future, and they do have some elevated 14 potential for harming themselves again. 15 Q. In his case, sir, when you say that he had a 16 high probability of acting out again, is it limited strictly 17 to self harm? 18 A. Well, obviously not. 19 Q. Doctor Buchholz, what was your general clinical 20 impression of him at the time that you concluded the interview 21 and the testing that you did on him, sir? 22 A. Looking at everything, looking at the history 23 that I had and his test results and the way he presented to 24 me, he seemed like somebody that was chronically dissatisfied, 25 depressed, anxious, unhappy, and who had somewhat impaired 77 1 ability to get his emotional needs met. He didn't really know 2 how to solve these problems that he was having emotionally. 3 Q. Did you conclude that he was a person that would 4 respond well to psychotherapy and treatment through 5 counseling? 6 MR. SMITH: Objection, leading, Your Honor. 7 JUDGE POTTER: Sustained. 8 A. I didn't address that question. 9 JUDGE POTTER: Well, he needs to reask the 10 question. 11 Q. Let me reask the question. Did you form any 12 conclusions or opinions at the time that you dealt with him as 13 to what the future course of his treatment may be and the 14 success or how it would work out in his case? 15 A. My only recommendation in that regard was to 16 have him tested again in the future. 17 Q. And if that was done, you did not do it, sir? 18 A. No, I didn't. 19 Q. Doctor Buchholz, let me refer you to another 20 document in this record, and specifically, sir, let me refer 21 you to a document that has been previously marked and filed as 22 Defendant's Exhibit 469. Let me hand you a copy of this, sir. 23 And specifically, sir, in Defendant's Exhibit 469, which I 24 will state is the medical records produced by the offices of 25 Dr. Vicdan Senler, let me refer you to Page 701321. 78 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And following behind that for several pages, 3 sir, all the way through Page 701329, that series of about 4 eight pages there, do you have that, sir? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Can you tell us, in just broad general terms, 7 what is this document, sir? 8 A. It's a computer-generated MMPI report based on 9 an answer sheet that was sent in to National Computer Systems 10 in Minnesota. 11 Q. And contained in there, sir, in that group of 12 documents is a sheet numbered 701326, entitled Critical Item 13 Listing. Do you see that, sir? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And it appears to bear the report date of 16 '83, 12-1; correct, sir? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And then a couple of pages behind that, Page 19 701328 and -329, sir, do you see those? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Can you tell us what that is? 22 A. That's the answer sheet presumably from which 23 this report was made. 24 Q. Now, sir, going back to the critical item 25 listing, near the bottom of that page, sir, there's 79 1 Question No. 28. Do you see that? 2 A. Yeah. 3 Q. And it states, "When someone does me a wrong, I 4 feel I should pay him back if I can, just for the principle of 5 the thing." 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And then I see a -- it looks like a T in 8 parentheses? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Would you look at the answer sheet, sir, to 11 No. 28 and tell us what the answer is? 12 A. It says, "False." 13 Q. Does that appear to be incorrect, sir? 14 A. Well, it looks inconsistent. 15 Q. It certainly does on the surface, doesn't it, 16 sir? 17 A. Sure does. 18 Q. Is it in fact inconsistent, sir? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Would you explain to the jury why it is not 21 inconsistent? 22 A. The answer sheet that was originally filled out 23 was published by the Roche Company -- it's not like R-O-A-C-H, 24 it's R-O-C-H-E; no insects involved -- and they had their own 25 book for the MMPI and their own answer sheet, and this was 80 1 because they were in their own business to do this. They're 2 not in business anymore; these test materials don't exist 3 anymore, but the questions were the same questions as in the 4 MMPI that the jury was given previously, but they're mixed up, 5 they're just in a different order. And it's possible to 6 translate this answer sheet into the currently used number 7 system by using a key, a translation key, and that's what the 8 computer company does when they make these reports. They're 9 perfectly aware of the difference in the answer sheet numbers, 10 and they just translate the answer sheet numbers into the 11 numbers shown in the report. 12 Q. All right, sir. Let me show you a document that 13 has been marked as Defendant's Exhibit 471. And can you 14 briefly tell us what these documents are, sir? 15 A. Well, I took this answer sheet, the one that 16 Mr. Wesbecker did in 1981. 17 Q. 1983? 18 A. I'm sorry. Yeah, '83. And I sent it to NCS in 19 Minnesota. 20 Q. Who is NCS, sir? 21 A. National Computer Systems. They own the 22 copyright on this. They're the world authority on the MMPI, 23 and that's where this original 1983 report was made. So, just 24 like the doctor who first did this report, I took the answer 25 sheet and I sent it to NCS in Minnesota, and they sent me back 81 1 this report based on that answer sheet. So it was rescored. 2 Q. Based on the same answer sheet that is in 3 Dr. Senler's record in 1983; correct? 4 A. Yes. So I got a new report based on the answer 5 sheet that Mr. Wesbecker filled out in 1983. 6 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, we move the admission 7 of Defendant's Exhibit 471 and ask that it be distributed to 8 the jury. 9 JUDGE POTTER: Be admitted. 10 SHERIFF CECIL: (Hands document to jurors). 11 Q. Doctor Buchholz, in looking at this document, 12 when did you have Mr. Wesbecker's original answers on this 13 Roche MMPI rescored by NCS? 14 A. November 23rd, 1994. 15 Q. And have you compared, sir, their report to the 16 original 1983 report? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. How do they compare? 19 A. Near as I can tell, they're identical. 20 Q. For example, sir, looking at the critical item 21 listing -- 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. -- on the two reports, and again looking down at 24 near the bottom, Question No. 28? 25 A. Yes. 82 1 Q. It states, "When someone does me a wrong, I feel 2 I should pay him back if I can just for the principle of the 3 thing," and it's marked how, sir? 4 A. "True." 5 Q. But, again, on the answer sheet, Question No. 28 6 appears how? 7 A. It's marked "False." 8 Q. What explains the difference, sir? 9 A. The computer takes the answer sheet numbers and 10 rearranges them in the right order for the scoring that you 11 see in the report. So the one -- the information in the 12 report is correct and the numbers are correct. So this is the 13 way -- this is the way Mr. Wesbecker answered the questions. 14 Q. All right. Let me see if I can explain it 15 further or you can explain it further with another document. 16 You mentioned the code a moment ago, a key code. Let me show 17 you a document marked Defendant's Exhibit 472. Can you tell 18 us what this is, sir? 19 A. When I got this report, I called up NCS and 20 asked them for more information about it and they sent me 21 these additional materials. And this is the key to translate 22 the old-style answer sheet, the Roche answer sheet, into the 23 current test form. So it's a way of translating that answer 24 sheet into these numbers. So, now, presumably, with this key, 25 anybody could take the answer sheet and rescore it using this 83 1 key and see how the questions match up for all the items. 2 Q. In other words, you can take Mr. Wesbecker's 3 1983 answers -- 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. -- and use that key -- 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. -- and be able to explain and verify and 8 validate the critical item listing? 9 A. Yes. Anybody could do that. 10 Q. All right, sir. 11 Your Honor, we would like to file Defendant's 12 Exhibit 472 and ask that it be distributed. 13 JUDGE POTTER: Be admitted. 14 SHERIFF CECIL: (Hands document to jurors). 15 Q. With regard to Defendant's Exhibit 472, sir, 16 would you turn to the first page of this document, and would 17 you read this short letter out loud for us, sir? 18 A. "Dear Customer: Enclosed you will find the MMPI 19 you recently returned to us believing it to have been scored 20 incorrectly. In fact, the scoring was accurate. The critical 21 item listing appears to be incorrect because the Roche 22 Psychiatric Service Institute chose not to use the standard 23 Group Form MMPI item order. See the paragraph that introduces 24 the critical item listing. I have enclosed a table that shows 25 the relationship between the unique item order employed in the 84 1 Roche Test Book and the standard item order employed in the 2 Minnesota report. That table will permit you to verify that 3 the Roche answer sheets that you submitted are, in fact, 4 properly scored. 5 "We have not programmed the item numbers used by 6 Roche for two reasons. First, as mentioned by Doctor Jolosky 7 and myself in our letter detailing the change from Roche to 8 NCS Interpretive Scoring Systems, Roche materials are no 9 longer being sold. Thus, the Roche item order is rapidly 10 becoming obsolete. Furthermore, as noted above, we print the 11 item numbers that are considered standard. The Group Form 12 item numbers are employed in all MMPI textbooks and in most 13 journal articles dealings with the test. Therefore, the 14 numbers we employ are likely to be most helpful to you. 15 "We regret any inconvenience this has caused 16 you. Sincerely, Kevin L. Moreland, Ph.D., Research and 17 Development." 18 Q. All right, sir. And then following behind that 19 there are some tables. Would you tell us what those tables 20 are? 21 A. There's two tables. One is for translating the 22 MMPI booklet that we use today to back into the old style test 23 book, and then the second table is for conversion of the test 24 book to the -- from the old test book to the new one. So 25 first you go from the new one to the old one and then from the 85 1 old one to the new one. 2 Q. All right, sir. Now, let me see if I can 3 understand this in terms of Question No. 28, as an example. 4 A. You're saying Question 28? 5 Q. On the standard MMPI. 6 A. On the new one, yes. 7 Q. On the new one. Okay. Is it fair to refer to 8 that as the standard or STD? 9 A. Those are the usual numbers. Yes. 10 Q. All right. Question 28, if I understand 11 correctly, is the question: "When someone does me a wrong, I 12 feel I should pay him back if I can just for the principle of 13 the thing"? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Now, sir, using the table for the Roche -- or 16 Roche, what is Question 28 when it's been renumbered or 17 rekeyed into the Roche answer? 18 A. Just looking on the table here, it's 240. 19 Q. Now, sir, in other words, taking Mr. Wesbecker's 20 answer sheet from 1983, if we look at Question No. 240, what 21 does it show, sir? 22 A. He answered that "True." 23 Q. And on the critical item listing on that 24 document, sir, in 1983, Question No. 28, what does it give as 25 the answer, sir? 86 1 A. "True." 2 Q. Is the 1983 report scored and reported 3 accurately, sir? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Is it reliable? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And again, sir, if I understand correctly, you 8 had Mr. Wesbecker's answers rescored within the last week or 9 ten days? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And was the rescoring -- how does it relate to 12 the scoring that was done back in 1983? 13 A. It was identical. 14 Q. That's all I have, sir. 15 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith. 16 17 EXAMINATION ___________ 18 19 BY_MR._SMITH: __ ___ ______ 20 Q. Doctor Buchholz, if I look at Question 240 in 21 Exhibit 375 of the MMPI, the question is -- have you got that 22 in front of you, 240? 23 A. I don't have your document, but go ahead. 24 Q. Exhibit 375, I thought we introduced that? 25 A. Oh, yes, I'm sorry. Question 240. Okay. 87 1 Q. It says, "I never worry about my looks," doesn't 2 it? 3 A. That's correct. 4 Q. It doesn't say anything about for the principle 5 of things I need to get back at people that have done me 6 wrong, does it? 7 A. No. This is not the test booklet that Mr. 8 Wesbecker used when he was answering. 9 Q. Where is the test booklet that Mr. Wesbecker 10 used when he was answering? 11 A. I don't know. 12 Q. Is it in the hospital records? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Have you ever seen it? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Have you ever confirmed the test booklet that 17 Mr. Wesbecker was using to see what his answers actually were, 18 that they do actually mesh? 19 A. No. 20 Q. All you did was go and, at -- frankly, at Mr. 21 Stopher's request, do a lot of investigation with these 22 companies up in Minnesota; is that right? 23 A. Correct. 24 Q. And they gave you this computer crisscross talk 25 to show how all this stuff worked? 88 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And you didn't administer the test in 1983, did 3 you? 4 A. No. 5 Q. That was done by another psychologist, wasn't 6 it? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. We don't know what test Mr. -- is it your 9 testimony we don't know what test Mr. Wesbecker -- booklet he 10 was using when he answered these things back in 1983? 11 A. I don't know that. 12 Q. You didn't give the test? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Who did give that test? 15 A. As far as I know, it was done in Doctor Hayes' 16 office. 17 Q. Doctor Hayes? 18 A. As far as I know. 19 Q. Where is Doctor Hayes located? 20 A. I don't know. 21 Q. Is he in Louisville? 22 A. I think Doctor Hayes is deceased or retired 23 somewhere. I don't know. 24 Q. But he is a doctor that was practicing in 25 Louisville at the time? 89 1 A. As far as I know, yes. 2 Q. Have you ever heard of Doctor Hayes? 3 A. Never. 4 Q. You've never heard of Doctor Hayes? 5 A. Not before this episode. 6 Q. This episode? 7 A. Being, you know, given this report. 8 Q. And you were given that report last -- within 9 the last couple of weeks? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. By Mr. Stopher? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Mr. Stopher didn't provide you the original 14 handbook that Mr. Wesbecker used to fill out the MMPI? 15 A. No. 16 Q. You still haven't seen that? 17 A. No. 18 Q. You are a neuropsychologist; is that right, sir? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. That means that in addition to having a Ph.D. in 21 psychology, you have had additional training; correct, sir? 22 A. Correct. 23 Q. And that training has to do with anatomy and 24 physiology of the brain; is that right? 25 A. Yes. 90 1 Q. Specifically to determine functioning of the 2 brain; correct, sir? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. You're not a neurosurgeon? 5 A. That's right. I'm not. 6 Q. Or a neurologist? 7 A. I'm not. 8 Q. Those are medical doctors who have had different 9 types of training in connection with brain activity; is that 10 right? 11 A. That's right. 12 Q. You are not a neuropsychopharmacologist, either, 13 are you, Doctor Buchholz? 14 A. No, I'm not. 15 Q. You are a Ph.D. neuropsychologist and your work 16 primarily involves administering tests to determine brain 17 function or brain impairment; is that correct, sir? 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. In other words, if an individual were in an 20 automobile accident and had a closed head injury and was 21 making certain complaints, they might be sent to you for an 22 analysis? 23 A. Correct. 24 Q. And one of the reasons that the medical doctor 25 sent Mr. Wesbecker to you was that he was making these 91 1 complaints of toluene poisoning and there was some question 2 about whether or not he suffered some neurological deficit as 3 a result of inhalation of toluene fumes; is that right, sir? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And you were not able to confirm that he had any 6 brain problem as a result of inhalation of toluene, were you, 7 sir? 8 A. That's right. I couldn't confirm that. 9 Q. And the blood studies that were done that you're 10 aware of indicated that there was no toluene present in Mr. 11 Wesbecker's bloodstream? 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. Would you say that you are -- your particular 14 expertise is in administering tests such as the MMPI? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. That's I guess why you were called in to do this 17 one in 1987 on Mr. Wesbecker? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Do you recall interviewing Mr. Wesbecker? 20 A. Just dimly, very dimly. 21 Q. Dimly? 22 A. It was a while ago. 23 Q. Would you think you would be able to remember 24 anything about him had you not been able to review your notes 25 and had it not been for the notoriety of this tragedy that 92 1 occurred two years after you saw him in September of 1989? 2 A. I don't know. 3 Q. He didn't make an impression on you in 1987 when 4 you saw him as being a terribly, terribly mentally-ill person, 5 did he? 6 A. No. Relative to other people that I see in the 7 hospital. 8 Q. In fact, your observation of Mr. Wesbecker 9 indicated that he was not homicidal? 10 A. I'm sorry. Is that a question? 11 Q. Yes. I can ask you a leading question. You 12 indicated that he was not homicidal at that time? 13 A. I did not think he was homicidal at that time. 14 Q. He did not at that time present by virtue of 15 your observation as a psychologist as one who was homicidal in 16 1987? 17 A. Correct. 18 Q. April of 1987? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Correct, sir? And you could make that 21 determination by virtue of your observations and training of 22 Mr. -- training -- your trained observations of Mr. Wesbecker; 23 correct, sir? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And I would assume that was something that you 93 1 would have noted had you believed he had been homicidal at the 2 time? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. The observation you made of Mr. Wesbecker that 5 he was not homicidal, included that he was not violent at the 6 time, didn't it? 7 A. I didn't mention anything like that, so... 8 Q. And you don't recall anything to indicate to you 9 that he would present a risk to other individuals at the time? 10 A. No. Although, as I mentioned earlier, I felt 11 that he was at a somewhat elevated risk. I didn't think he 12 was at the level of risk where you would require him to be 13 committed or restrained or anything like that, but he seemed 14 more concerned about these issues than most people, so... 15 Q. But it wasn't such a concern that you would 16 classify it as pathological or something that was indicative 17 of an imminent danger to others? 18 A. I did not feel he was an imminent danger to 19 others, yes. 20 Q. And didn't feel like he was likely to be an 21 imminent danger to others at the time? 22 A. At the time, no. 23 Q. In addition, the MMPI that you did in -- was it 24 April of 1987? 25 A. Yes. 94 1 Q. Was a good indicator that he was not homicidal, 2 wasn't it? 3 A. Yes. At that time, that was my conclusion. 4 Q. I guess probably one of the first things that 5 you would look at would be Scale 4; correct, sir? 6 A. That's one thing, yes. 7 Q. Well, that's the scale that has to do with what? 8 A. That's called the psychopathy scale and it deals 9 with antisocial kinds of behavior. 10 Q. It says it's one who is antisocial personality, 11 compulsive, trouble with others, no conscience, no sense of 12 right or wrong? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. What was the score on Scale 4? 15 A. Well, it was within normal limits. He had a 16 score of 56. 17 Q. Fifty-six? 18 A. Yes. Well, just depending on -- we use the 19 scale on the far left there where it goes from 0 to 120. 20 Q. Okay. As I see it -- 21 A. It's within normal limits. 22 Q. As I see it, is this the one you're talking 23 about? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. That seems the most lowest within the normal 95 1 limits; in other words, that seems the most normal of all the 2 recordations you've made. Is that accurate to say? 3 A. I would say that it's one of his lowest scores. 4 Q. Beg your pardon? 5 A. I would say that's one of his lowest scores. 6 Q. And could we say it's one of his best scores, 7 too? 8 A. I wouldn't say that, but... Well, it's a 9 healthier score. It's one of his healthier scores. 10 Q. It's one of his healthier scores; is that right? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. What if he would have scored below this line, 13 Doctor Buchholz, this 50? 14 A. I don't think I've ever seen anybody do that. 15 Q. Wait a minute. You've never seen anybody score 16 below that line? 17 A. On that particular scale. 18 Q. Okay. So of the thousands of people that you've 19 seen maybe he had about as good a scale as you had seen on the 20 antisocial scale? 21 A. Could be. 22 Q. You wouldn't predict this guy is going to go in 23 and blow away a lot of people with an AK-47, would you, Doctor 24 Buchholz? 25 A. Not with the data that I had. 96 1 Q. In April of 1987? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Something obviously changed in this man, didn't 4 it? 5 A. Sure. 6 Q. People who score high on Item 7, depression -- 7 I'm sorry, Item -- Scale 2, like Mr. Wesbecker; correct, sir? 8 A. That's the depression scale, yes, and he was 9 high in that. 10 Q. He was high on that? Those people are not 11 likely to commit a violent act, are they, sir? 12 A. That's too broad a generalization. 13 Q. Okay. The fact that he scored low there makes 14 him less likely to commit a violent act than someone that had 15 scored otherwise? When I say low there, I mean high there, 16 his depression was high. 17 A. I wouldn't say that, no. 18 Q. Okay. If you combine that with a -- his score 19 of -- on the Item 9, mania energy level? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. What can you conclude about that, Doctor 22 Buchholz? 23 A. What you've described is a case where someone is 24 presenting as very depressed with a very low level of energy. 25 Q. And that's how Mr. Wesbecker presented, wasn't 97 1 it? 2 A. That's correct. 3 Q. And that's what your test confirmed, too, isn't 4 it, sir? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And what does that tell us? 7 A. He showed at that particular time a lowered 8 probability of being violent. 9 Q. Lower than normal; correct, sir? 10 A. I wouldn't say that. 11 Q. Lower than average? 12 A. Lower than a depressed person with a higher 13 Scale 9. 14 Q. You didn't think that Mr. Wesbecker was 15 dangerous at the time, either, did you? 16 A. No, I didn't. 17 Q. He didn't threaten any person or any groups of 18 people, either, did he? 19 A. No. 20 Q. He never expressed any homicidal intentions? 21 A. No. 22 Q. In fact, his personality profile contraindicates 23 an individual who would be homicidal; correct? 24 A. That's too broad a generalization. At that 25 particular moment, he was not showing homicidal tendencies. 98 1 Q. And the test that he did, that you administered, 2 indicated that that type of behavior would be contraindicated; 3 right, sir? 4 A. No. That's not what I said. When you talk 5 about contraindicated, it means that it would be less likely 6 to do something than the average person. I think this man was 7 disturbed, he was in the hospital, he had a history of 8 committing suicide -- attempting suicide and he was not 9 behaving normally, but I didn't think that he was going to go 10 out and kill somebody then. 11 Q. And didn't think he was likely to, either? 12 A. At that time, yes. 13 Q. And the tests that you administered confirmed 14 that, didn't it? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Because he scored real well on the antisocial 17 aspect of the MMPI? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Right, sir? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And he had a high level of depression? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And a low level of mania? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Probably that is different than someone you 99 1 would normally see that commits this type of act, isn't it? 2 A. I don't know. He's the only patient I've ever 3 known to do something like this. 4 Q. You wouldn't have predicted it in 1987? 5 A. I didn't, no. 6 Q. Isn't it true, Doctor Buchholz, that by virtue 7 of the fact that his energy level was low, his mania level was 8 low, that one of the worst things that could happen to Mr. 9 Wesbecker would be that he get some type of stimulant? 10 A. I don't know. 11 Q. You just don't know? If something really raised 12 his energy level, if something really raised his mania level, 13 wouldn't that be dangerous for this man? 14 A. Could be. I don't know. 15 Q. If something were to cause this man to have 16 increased levels of agitation and anger, that would be 17 dangerous for him, wouldn't it? 18 A. Sure. 19 Q. If something caused him to have some delusion or 20 some additional manic-type reaction where he was imagining 21 something that didn't occur, that would be dangerous for this 22 individual, wouldn't it? 23 A. That would be dangerous for anyone, sure. 24 Q. If something caused him, this particular type of 25 individual, to deteriorate to the extent that they were -- 100 1 that their psychiatrist was requiring them to be hospitalized, 2 that would be dangerous for that individual, wouldn't it, sir? 3 A. Sure. He was hospitalized when I saw him. 4 Q. I'm talking about later on. 5 A. Well... 6 Q. I know you didn't see him after that. 7 A. Yeah. 8 Q. Do you know Doctor Lee Coleman? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Is he a psychiatrist here in town? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Is he accurate, as far as you know, in recording 13 observations of patients? 14 A. As far as I know. 15 Q. Have you and Doctor Coleman consulted on 16 patients in the past? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And have you observed his notes concerning his 19 observations of his psychiatric patients? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And have they been accurate? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And have they been something that you can 24 confirm by your observation? 25 A. Yes. 101 1 Q. In other words, if Doctor Lee Coleman were to 2 say that the patient seems to have deteriorated, would that 3 cause you concern? 4 A. Sure. 5 Q. If Doctor Lee Coleman said the patient was 6 experiencing tangential thought, would that cause you concern? 7 A. Sure. 8 Q. If Doctor Lee Coleman was observing increased 9 levels of agitation and anger, would that cause you concern? 10 A. Sure. 11 Q. Because you think Doctor Lee Coleman is able to 12 observe psychiatric states in patients, don't you? 13 A. Sure. 14 Q. And don't you trust Doctor Coleman's 15 observations and opinion in connection with the effects of 16 psychiatric medication? 17 A. Sure. 18 Q. And if he says that he would discontinue a 19 medication because it may have caused a condition, wouldn't 20 you be supportive of Doctor Coleman in that position? Or 21 respect his judgment? 22 A. I'd respect his judgment. It's outside my 23 field. 24 Q. I understand that, but you and he work together 25 treating patients; right? 102 1 A. I certainly wouldn't tell a patient to take a 2 drug that he told them not to take. 3 Q. What? 4 A. I wouldn't tell a patient to take something that 5 he told them not to take. 6 Q. If Doctor Coleman were to make an observation 7 that an increased level of activation and anger and tangential 8 thought and deterioration was from Prozac or questioned 9 whether it was from Prozac and that he recommended that the 10 patient discontinue the Prozac and go into the hospital, would 11 you have any reason to disagree with Doctor Lee Coleman? 12 A. You've asked several things. It's a complicated 13 question. I might not agree with -- I don't agree with 14 everything Doctor Coleman thinks. I'm saying that I would not 15 contradict his orders. 16 Q. Can you see this, sir? I'll move it back for 17 you. 18 A. Yes. I can see it. 19 Q. Do you recognize Doctor Lee Coleman? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Do you recognize that Doctor Coleman makes an 22 observation that on September 11th the patient seems to have 23 deteriorated, do you see that? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. "Tangential thought, weeping in session. 103 1 Increased level of agitation and anger. Question from Prozac. 2 Patient states he now remembers sexual abuse by co-workers and 3 has called sex crimes division of police. Because of 4 deterioration, I encouraged patient to go into the hospital 5 for stabilization, but he refused. Plan, discontinue Prozac, 6 which may be cause. Return to clinic in two weeks." 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Do you see anything there that you would 9 disagree with Doctor Coleman about those notations? 10 A. I believe that what you're telling me that these 11 are Doctor Coleman's notes. Whether or not I -- I don't have 12 an opinion about whether or not I think Prozac caused these 13 symptoms. 14 Q. I know that. But do you have any disagreement 15 with whether or not -- with what Doctor Coleman, based on your 16 knowledge of Doctor Coleman about his ability to observe a 17 patient? 18 A. No. 19 Q. About his ability to observe the effects of 20 medication? 21 A. No. 22 Q. About his ability to know when a patient is 23 deteriorating and a patient is improving? 24 A. No. 25 Q. And know when a patient should be in the 104 1 hospital? 2 A. No. 3 Q. And know when a patient should discontinue a 4 drug? 5 A. No. 6 Q. And make a judgment concerning whether or not a 7 drug is causing a particular reaction? You don't have reason 8 to disagree with Doctor Coleman on his ability to do that? 9 A. I might disagree on that point. 10 Q. About his ability to determine whether or not a 11 drug is causing -- 12 A. I wouldn't disagree with his order about the 13 drug but I might disagree about the relationship, the causal 14 relationship. 15 Q. All right. But that's as far as you'll go? 16 A. Yeah. 17 Q. Now, how many times have you talked with Mr. 18 Stopher about this case? 19 A. Half a dozen. 20 Q. How many? 21 A. Half a dozen. 22 Q. Six? 23 A. I don't know exactly. 24 Q. Thank you, Doctor Buchholz. 25 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher? 105 1 FURTHER_EXAMINATION _______ ___________ 2 3 BY_MR._STOPHER: __ ___ ________ 4 Q. Doctor Buchholz, I thought I understood you to 5 say that you have never had a professional contact with a mass 6 murderer other than Joseph Wesbecker, did I understand you 7 correctly, sir? 8 A. That's true. 9 Q. Do the tests that you did and the clinical 10 evaluation that you did rule out Mr. Wesbecker as a mass 11 murderer or someone that is incapable of committing an 12 intentional and planned act of vengeance against the 13 workplace? 14 A. Not at all. 15 Q. You've been asked about deterioration. Let me 16 ask you about the 1983 MMPI reports and the 1987 report that 17 you did, sir. 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Did Mr. Wesbecker's condition remain the same 20 from 1983 and 1987, or did it change? 21 A. It became worse. 22 Q. Was there deterioration in that period of time 23 in his psychological and mental condition, sir? 24 A. Apparently, yes. 25 Q. Finally, sir, with regard to the two tests, the 106 1 1983 and the 1987 test, are the 560 some-odd questions the 2 same? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Are the numbers different? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And can you take the key code and simply go 7 through the 1983 and convert it to the standard or 1987, sir? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Thank you, sir. That's all I have. 10 MR. SMITH: Your Honor, I just have one other 11 question. 12 13 FURTHER_EXAMINATION _______ ___________ 14 15 BY_MR._SMITH: __ ___ ______ 16 Q. Doctor Buchholz, as I understand it, we could 17 take an MMPI and see one question and one answer and might 18 make some conclusions on that as a layperson. Would you do 19 that as a clinical psychologist? 20 A. Ordinarily, no. 21 Q. It's in fact something that deals with a number 22 of questions; right, sir? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And the proper way to score this is to interpret 25 it based on looking at a number of questions? 107 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. For instance, I saw a question in there, "I'd 3 like to be a florist"? 4 A. Right. 5 Q. And that might be part of the male-female 6 gender-type question; right, sir? 7 A. Might be. 8 Q. And it might indicate a more female leanings? 9 A. It might. It might be on the depression scale. 10 Q. So we can't take any one question and any one 11 answer as being conclusive, can we, from the MMPI? 12 A. That's not the way we usually interpret it. 13 Q. It's interpreted by virtue of these scales 14 you're talking about? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. That's the reason you do the scales? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And you found a high scale of depression? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. And you did that by looking at a number of 21 questions -- answers to a number of questions? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And you found a low level of energy; correct, 24 sir? 25 A. Yes. 108 1 Q. In Mr. Wesbecker, and you did that by looking at 2 a number of answers and questions; right, sir? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. So we might find one answer to one question that 5 might seem a little peculiar, that is, but that doesn't really 6 in and of itself mean anything, does it? 7 A. It means something. It's not the way we usually 8 interpret the test. 9 Q. If, for instance, you look at the test you 10 did -- 11 A. Okay. 12 Q. -- and the answers that Mr. Wesbecker gave you, 13 which is 376, Mr. Stopher pointed out some answers to some 14 questions that might cause particular concern, but look at 88. 15 The question is: "I usually feel that life is worthwhile." 16 What was Mr. Wesbecker's answer to that? 17 A. To Question 88, he answered "True." 18 Q. True, I usually feel life is worthwhile; right? 19 A. True. 20 Q. To Question 97, the question is: "At times I 21 have a strong urge to do something harmful or shocking," what 22 was Mr. Wesbecker's answer to that? 23 A. "False." 24 Q. No. 104 says, "I don't seem to care what happens 25 to me." What was his answer to that? 109 1 A. "False." 2 Q. That means he does care what happens to him; 3 right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. He says sometimes -- the next one is: 6 "Sometimes when I'm not feeling well, I am cross." What's his 7 answer to that? 8 A. I'm sorry. What number? 9 Q. 105. I beg your pardon. "Sometimes when I'm 10 not feeling well, I am cross"? 11 A. "True." 12 Q. That was true of him at the time; right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Could probably be said for a lot of us, couldn't 15 it, when we're not feeling well we're cross? 16 A. Sure. 17 Q. Question 110: "Someone has it in for me." What 18 was Mr. Wesbecker's answer to that? 19 A. "False." 20 Q. What was his answer to Question 113: "I believe 21 in law enforcement"? 22 A. "True." 23 Q. What was Mr. Wesbecker's answer to Question 128: 24 "The site of blood neither frightens me nor makes me sick"? 25 A. "False." 110 1 Q. What was his answer to Question 129: "Often I 2 can't understand why I've been so cross and grouchy"? 3 A. "True." 4 Q. Look at 187. "It wouldn't make me nervous if 5 any members of my family got into trouble with the law"? 6 A. "True." 7 Q. 170: "What others think of me does not bother 8 me"? 9 A. "False." 10 Q. False? Question 209: "I believe my sins are 11 unpardonable." What does he say? 12 A. "False." 13 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much, sir. You 14 may step down; you're excused. 15 Ladies and gentlemen, we're going to take the 16 lunch recess at this time. As I've mentioned to you-all 17 before, do not permit anybody to talk to you about this case 18 or communicate with you on any topic connected with this case. 19 Do not discuss it among yourselves or form or express opinions 20 about it. We'll stand in recess till 1:45. 21 (LUNCH RECESS) 22 SHERIFF CECIL: The jury is now entering. All 23 jurors are present. Court is back in session. 24 JUDGE POTTER: Please be seated. 25 Mr. Stopher, do you want to call your next 111 1 witness? 2 MR. STOPHER: Yes, Judge. Lieutenant Donald 3 Burbrink. 4 JUDGE POTTER: Sir, would you step down here and 5 raise your right hand. 6 7 LIEUTENANT DONALD BURBRINK, after first being 8 duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: 9 10 JUDGE POTTER: Please have a seat. Please keep 11 your voice up. After you get seated, would you state your 12 name loudly and clearly and then spell your name for me, 13 please, sir. 14 LIEUTENANT BURBRINK: My name is Donald 15 Burbrink. B-U-R-B-R-I-N-K. 16 JUDGE POTTER: If you'll answer Mr. Stopher's 17 questions. 18 19 EXAMINATION ___________ 20 21 BY_MR._STOPHER: __ ___ _______ 22 Q. Would you state it again a little more slowly, 23 please, sir? 24 A. I'm Lieutenant Don Burbrink, B-U-R-B-R-I-N-K, 25 with the Louisville Division of Police. 112 1 Q. And what is your present job title with the 2 Louisville Division of Police, sir? 3 A. At the present time I'm assigned to Staff 4 Services. I'm the lieutenant in Staff Services, which does 5 work out of the chief's office. We do research for the chief 6 and so forth. I'm also the SWAT commander for the Louisville 7 Police Department. 8 Q. And what is your present rank, sir? 9 A. It's lieutenant. 10 Q. Lieutenant, would you tell us, first of all, how 11 old you are? 12 A. Forty-one. 13 Q. All right, sir. And approximately how long, 14 sir, have you been with the Louisville Police Department? 15 A. I came on the police department in 1977. I've 16 been on 17 and a half years. It will be 18 in March of next 17 year. In that time, I've been -- my first nine years I served 18 in the Fourth District, which is the area basically from 19 Broadway south to Algonquin and from Seventh Street west to 20 the river. I served three years as a patrolman in that 21 district and six years as a detective. 22 I then -- in 1986, I went to homicide. I served 23 in homicide from 1986 to 1991. 24 In 1989, I was promoted to sergeant, but I still 25 stayed in homicide as a supervisor. 113 1 In 1991, I was promoted to lieutenant, and at 2 that point in time I went to the First District, which is the 3 east end area out there off Douglass Boulevard. I was the 4 assistant district commander there for a year. 5 I then changed jobs and went to the -- became 6 the commander of the Economics Crimes Unit, and then a year 7 after that I took the present job I'm in now, Staff Services. 8 Q. Your present job now is Staff Services? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. And basically what does staff services mean, 11 sir? 12 A. We do research for the chief. Basically, we do 13 policy and procedure changes, if we're looking into new -- in 14 fact, right now I'm working on a burglar alarm legislation 15 that we're going to enact for false alarms. So I'm working on 16 that. Those are the type of things I've worked at. Also, 17 like I say, I'm the SWAT commander, so that takes up part of 18 my time. With the SWAT team here at the Louisville Police 19 Department I have training exercises. I'm also a KLEC, 20 Kentucky Law Enforcement Council instructor, so I teach 21 recruits and also other officers throughout the state. I'm 22 certified in interview and interrogation techniques, 23 testifying in court, SWAT tactics, supervising investigations 24 and also basically in investigations. 25 Q. Lieutenant, in addition to your work history, 114 1 have you also been trained in police matters and law 2 enforcement matters in connection with that work? 3 A. Yes, sir. We have to take 40 hours of 4 in-service training every year. I've been to several homicide 5 seminars when I was in homicide, FBI and also the Southern 6 Police Institute. I also attended a 16-week Southern Police 7 Institute management course for officers, and I've got a 8 Bachelor of Science degree from the University of Louisville 9 in police administration. 10 Q. You have a bachelor's degree from the University 11 of Louisville in police administration? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. And then, did I understand, separately from that 14 you've also attended the Southern Police Institute? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. And is that a -- you get a certificate or a 17 completion award in connection with that work? 18 A. Yes, sir; you do. 19 Q. And have you finished that work at the Southern 20 Police Institute? 21 A. I finished that in 1989; yes, sir. 22 Q. Lieutenant Burbrink, let me talk with you for a 23 moment about homicide. You mentioned that you were with the 24 homicide division or department? 25 A. It's actually a unit, sir. 115 1 Q. Unit. 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. And you were with that unit, if I understand 4 correctly, from 1986 to 1991? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. Is that accurate? In connection with that 7 assignment, sir, would you tell us what generally the kind of 8 work you did in that assignment. 9 A. Okay. Here at Louisville Division of Police, 10 the homicide unit handles all homicides, all suicides and then 11 also unintended deaths. And basically what an unintended 12 death is, is that somebody who is not supposed to die suddenly 13 dies or there's an accident of some sort, an industrial 14 accident of some sort and they die. We handle those. We do 15 not handle one if we have a 90-year-old man who's been on 16 medication, heart condition, so forth, and died. We don't 17 handle those. We do handle unintended deaths, somebody who 18 falls over dead at 35 and never been to a doctor. We will 19 handle those to determine what the cause of death is. 20 We also handle all sex offenses of adults, which 21 is rapes and sodomies of adults. Those were the things that 22 we handled in the homicide unit. At the time when I was in 23 the homicide unit, there was a lieutenant, three sergeants. 24 We had three platoons at that time and then each platoon had 25 five detectives assigned to it. 116 1 Q. So at the time that you were with the homicide 2 unit, there would have been one lieutenant, three sergeants 3 and five detectives with each shift? 4 A. Right. Yes. 15 detectives total; yes, sir. 5 Q. Fifteen detectives total. 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. Okay. Lieutenant Burbrink, in connection with 8 the homicide unit what sort of training do you get in 9 connection with that work? 10 A. When you're initially assigned into the homicide 11 unit, they try to send you to several seminars to talk about 12 causes of death and so forth. You also go down to the medical 13 examiner's office and kind of sit in on some of the autopsies 14 to determine cause of death to show that. You review cases to 15 determine how the interviews are conducted and so forth. 16 There's an orientation period of about a month, and during 17 that period of time you also ride with a training partner 18 during that period of time, and you go out with them and you 19 conduct your interviews or whatever, scene investigations, and 20 they're there with you to assist you through this for the 21 first month. Obviously, I had a lot of training before that. 22 I was six years a detective, so I knew some of the things to 23 do already, but, anyhow, it's a little different in homicide 24 the way they handle their evidence and so forth, so you have a 25 learning period there. 117 1 And then from there you're sent to several 2 seminars. Southern Police Institute puts on a two-week 3 seminar; I ed that. The FBI puts on eighty-hour, 4 two-week seminar, and I ed that, also. There's also 5 several ones in regards to interrogation techniques and so 6 forth. There's one that the Reed Association out of Chicago 7 put on in northern Kentucky, and I attended that, also. So 8 there are several schools that we ed. There's also 9 another school that was put on by the police department and by 10 Doctor Holmes out of the University of Louisville in mass 11 murderers and serial killers; that was put on, I also 12 ed that. 13 That's some of the things and training you get, 14 and basically you learn day to day by just actually doing the 15 job. They don't really assign you a homicide right away; you 16 do several suicides and accidental deaths in order to learn 17 how to write up bodies, write up scenes, make sure you're 18 taking the evidence and doing the proper things before they 19 ever give you a homicide. 20 Q. Lieutenant, during the approximately five years 21 that you were with the homicide unit, approximately how many 22 homicides would you be involved with as a member of the police 23 force on an annual or a yearly basis? 24 A. During those five years we had about 40 -- we 25 averaged about 40 homicides a year, so it was about 200 118 1 homicides. Now, some homicides are going to have occurred on 2 other shifts, but a lot of times there's still other work to 3 be done on that. You still have to go back and do follow-up 4 or go to the autopsy or go out and conduct other interviews, 5 so you always had to familiarize yourself with whatever the 6 homicide case was. That's what part of our job was. If 7 there's a homicide we're on, we're supposed to go in and read 8 the file and look at the photographs and so forth and the 9 videos and everything and familiarize yourself with the type 10 of information there so you could be up to speed in case 11 somebody should call. 12 Especially when I became a supervisor or 13 sergeant, there was a lot of calls from the media and you got 14 a lot of calls from other jurisdictions that wanted to have 15 information on this, so you had to familiarize yourself with 16 that. So basically you worked on almost all the homicides; 17 about 200 is what I figure that I was involved in at the time 18 I was in homicide. 19 Q. You were, as a member of that unit, also 20 involved in connection with the investigation of suicides? 21 A. Yes, sir; I was. 22 Q. About how many suicides per year were you 23 involved with? 24 A. We traditionally handled around 60 suicides and 25 other accidental deaths and so forth per year. So it was 119 1 about 300 to 350, I would estimate. 2 Q. Have you ever been involved, sir, in connection 3 with your work in that unit again, with a homicide and 4 suicide? 5 A. During the time I was there? 6 Q. Yes, sir. 7 A. Yes, sir. Last case I worked was a homicide/ 8 suicide before I was promoted to lieutenant. 9 Q. And approximately how many of those kinds of 10 cases would there be per year in this area? 11 A. Roughly two to three, probably. 12 Q. Lieutenant, going back now to September of 1989, 13 and particularly with regard to September 14, 1989, what was 14 your rank at that time in the homicide unit, sir? 15 A. I was a sergeant in the homicide unit, a 16 supervisor of a platoon. 17 Q. And the platoon would consist of five 18 detectives? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. And then over you there would have been a 21 lieutenant? 22 A. Yes, there was. 23 Q. And do you recall who that was at that time, 24 sir? 25 A. Lieutenant Jeff Moody was the homicide 120 1 lieutenant at that time. 2 Q. And then who would have been up the chain of 3 command from Lieutenant Jeff Moody? 4 A. Up from him would have been Captain Howard 5 Thompson; he was a captain in the criminal investigations 6 section. And then Major Edward Mercer, he was the actual 7 staff officer, and he had all the other different units that 8 were in the criminal investigations services underneath him, 9 which would have been robbery, burglary, fugitive, 10 white-collar crime, fraud, all those things. 11 Q. And then above Major Edward Mercer? 12 A. Above him at that time would have been the 13 operations commander, and there were several of them during 14 that period of time, Colonel Borden was one of them, Colonel 15 Beavers was one of them, and I'm missing somebody there. I 16 don't remember. Once they're gone, you kind of forget them. 17 Q. All right. And who would have been at the top 18 of the chain of command at that time? 19 A. The chief at that time was Richard Dotson. 20 Q. Now, Lieutenant Burbrink, in connection with the 21 shootings that occurred at Standard Gravure on September 14, 22 1989, would you tell us briefly where you fit in connection 23 with the investigation of that matter, sir? 24 A. Yes, sir. As a supervisor in the homicide unit, 25 like I said, you were in charge of five people. And in 121 1 regards to that, you had to make sure that every scene that 2 was done, that all of the proper measurements were taken, that 3 the proper documentation was done on each scene and the proper 4 people were interviewed and interrogated and so forth, so you 5 had to go back and look over all that type stuff, also; that 6 was part of your duties. Now, on this morning here, it was 7 not my platoon, I was on actually the afternoon shift, but I 8 was called at home at 9:00 that morning and told to report to 9 Standard Gravure. And at that point I did arrive at about 10 9:25 that morning. 11 Upon arriving there I met with my lieutenant, 12 Lieutenant Jeff Moody, who advised me that I needed to go down 13 to the location right outside the break room and meet with 14 Detective Jackman, Cheryl Jackman. At that point in time, I 15 walked into that location there, and I noted that the subject 16 was lying on his face there in front of the break room; that 17 there was an AK-47 on a board underneath some roller pins. 18 And I was immediately asked by one of the EMS technicians if I 19 could -- he was concerned about the weapon, could I unload the 20 weapon to make sure that it was on safe. At that point in 21 time I told him that as long as nobody touched it, the weapon 22 needed to be stayed as it was in order to be documented at a 23 later time; we did not want to disturb it. I noted there was 24 also a weapon underneath the subject, too, a nine-millimeter 25 semiautomatic was underneath the subject. There was also 122 1 another subject inside the break room area lying there. 2 At that point in time, Cheryl Jackman would have 3 been the one who would have been in charge of the case. 4 Basically it's on a rotating cases: You have sex offenses, 5 suicides and homicides, and basically you rotate between each 6 detective. So whenever one is up, then they catch the case. 7 And Cheryl Jackman would have been the one who was catching 8 that day, so it would have been her case. So that was the -- 9 that area there was a culmination of the events that day, and 10 since that's where the suspect was at, that's the scene that 11 she would do. And that's just normal procedures that are done 12 at homicides, that you catch the body and the defendant, and 13 that's what she had. So she was in charge of that scene 14 there. 15 Q. All right, sir. In connection with the 16 investigation, is there any one person that did it? 17 A. No, sir. 18 Q. Can you give us some idea of how many people 19 worked on the investigation of this scene at Standard Gravure? 20 A. Well, the entire homicide people were called in, 21 so all 15 detectives and 3 sergeants and the lieutenant were 22 there. We also ended up having to draft people who had been 23 in homicide before who knew our procedures: Sergeant 24 Waldrich, several of the Robbery people who had been involved 25 in Homicide before were also asked to come on in. Major 123 1 Mercer, who had been also in homicide was asked to come on in 2 and assist us with that. 3 There was approximately -- and then you have 4 also your evidence technician people, which were officers at 5 that time. They're now civilians but at that time they were 6 officers, but they came in for documentation purposes. 7 Altogether, there was probably 45 to 50 officers that were 8 involved just in the investigation, not counting the first 9 responders, which were the people who actually made the run 10 and assisted some of the people getting out and secured the 11 area. 12 Q. Lieutenant, with regard to your -- in 13 connection, sir, with your involvement with this 14 investigation, obviously it began on September 14, 1989. Can 15 you give us some idea as to how long you worked on this 16 project? 17 A. I've got one letter here that's dated October 18 23rd, 1989, and that had to do with the coroner's inquest. 19 There were several other things that were done later on. I 20 really couldn't tell you. I see a December 5th, 1989 incident 21 here, also another letter of December 5th. It culminated 22 several months after that. 23 Q. Again, sir, without going into a lot of detail 24 at this particular time, can you give the jury some overview 25 of the types of investigation that was done in terms of the 124 1 overall investigation? 2 A. Well, each location that somebody had been 3 injured or deceased, there was a scene investigation done on 4 that. So basically what we try to do is retrace the route of 5 the gunman and do a scene investigation, collection of all 6 evidence during that period of time. Since this was very 7 extensive, we cut the scenes up. It was my determination -- I 8 was placed ultimately in charge of all the scenes to make sure 9 that everything was documented and all evidence was collected. 10 So I was in charge, and I was the one who was to do the 11 assignments on it, which I did; I assigned the different 12 detectives for different locations. And what I did is I cut 13 up the scene because it actually would have been too much for 14 one person to try to do by themselves, so I cut it up into 15 different locations and assigned different detectives, along 16 with an evidence technician to that area there and had them 17 write up the scene, and that was basically my assignments 18 there. 19 Q. After the scene investigations, are there other 20 parts of the overall investigation of this shooting, sir? 21 A. Oh, there's all kinds of parts. Basically, you 22 had to go back and interview all eyewitnesses. Anybody who 23 was working that day in that plant had to be interviewed to 24 determine if they saw anything. We had to have a roster of 25 all the personnel and try and go back and see if those people 125 1 were there, where were they located at during this time, what 2 they knew, if anything. There was background that had to do 3 with Mr. Wesbecker that we had to do, go back and talk to 4 people who knew him that did not work there and some that did 5 work there and did not work on that shift. Again, there was 6 the autopsy, there was the coroner's inquest to do, there was 7 a lot of this other type of information and so forth. 8 Documentation of all evidence, sending evidence away to the 9 labs to have it tested and so forth was all a part of the 10 investigation. 11 Q. What about investigations or searches of Mr. 12 Wesbecker's residence? 13 A. Yes. There was -- there was an interview done 14 with his wife -- or, ex-wife. I'm sorry. And there was a 15 search of the locations of where he was on Nottoway Circle, 16 which was his house, and also the house he was staying at with 17 her on Blevins Gap. There was a search of vehicles that 18 belonged to Mr. Wesbecker was also done at those point in 19 times, and also talked to his family. 20 Q. Lieutenant, the first thing that you mentioned 21 was that you were in charge of the scene investigation. Did I 22 understand correctly? 23 A. Yes, sir; that's correct. 24 Q. And I thought I understood you to say that one 25 of the first things that you did was to retrace the route of 126 1 the gunman. Did I understand correctly? 2 A. Yes, sir; that is correct. 3 Q. And was it a function of the investigation to 4 determine what that route was? 5 A. Yes, sir; it was. 6 Q. Lieutenant, at my request, have you assisted in 7 recording on videotape the route that Mr. Wesbecker followed 8 on September 14, 1989? 9 A. Yes, sir; I did. 10 MR. SMITH: May we approach, Your Honor? 11 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 12 MR. SMITH: Never been identified or produced. 13 MR. STOPHER: Yeah. He saw it. It was produced 14 as an exhibit and was made available on the date that we 15 exchanged exhibits. 16 MR. SMITH: No. 17 MR. STOPHER: Absolutely true. 18 JUDGE POTTER: Wait a minute, folks. 19 MR. SMITH: Beg your pardon? 20 JUDGE POTTER: I'm just thinking, Mr. Smith. 21 I'm just thinking. We're seriously at a point, folks, where 22 -- you say you've never seen this thing. 23 MR. SMITH: I probably wouldn't have any 24 objection to it, and I hate to interrupt; I'm really not 25 trying to be obstructionist. Can you give me some idea -- 127 1 JUDGE POTTER: Well, let's just take a break. 2 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 3 JUDGE POTTER: Ladies and gentlemen, let's take 4 about a ten-minute recess. As I've mentioned to you-all 5 before, do not permit anybody to talk to you about this case; 6 do not discuss it among yourselves and do not form or express 7 opinions about it. 8 How long is the tape, Lieutenant? How long is 9 the tape? 10 LIEUTENANT BURBRINK: About 15 to 20 minutes. 11 JUDGE POTTER: We'll take a 20-minute recess, 12 because Mr. Smith has apparently not seen the tape and he 13 needs to see it. 14 (JURORS EXCUSED; VIDEOTAPE REVIEWED 15 DURING RECESS) 16 SHERIFF CECIL: The jury is now entering. 17 All jurors are present. Court is back in session. 18 JUDGE POTTER: Please be seated. 19 Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I hated to 20 take a break like that, but the attorneys have done their best 21 to exchange all the documents and exhibits that they're going 22 to introduce at trial so things can go smoothly. In their 23 defense I'll say, as you can tell from the numbering sequence, 24 they've exchanged hundreds of things and probably even 25 thousands of things. That was just a simple glitch, so we had 128 1 to stop and let them exchange it before we went forward. 2 Detective, I'll remind you you're still under 3 oath. 4 LIEUTENANT BURBRINK: Yes, sir. 5 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher. 6 Q. Lieutenant, does the Standard Gravure building 7 still exist, sir? 8 A. No, it does not. It was tore down. 9 Q. And prior to it being torn down, did you assist 10 in videotaping the building and the route that Mr. Wesbecker 11 followed pursuant and in conformity with your investigation? 12 A. Yes, sir; I did. 13 Q. Lieutenant, I'll ask you if you will step down. 14 We have put into the video-playing machine, the VCR, 15 Defendant's Exhibit 389. And I will ask you, if you will, 16 please, sir, to narrate this. And if you'll use the hand-held 17 mike. 18 And, Julie, if you get to a point you can't hear 19 him, we can back it up. 20 Can everybody see this? Is this close enough or 21 not close enough? 22 (VIDEOTAPE BEGINS) 23 A. You can see this is an aerial view of Standard 24 Gravure. And to familiarize yourself with this thing, this is 25 the courthouse here. This is Sixth Street running here; this 129 1 is Armory Place; this is Broadway, so we're looking north is 2 where we're looking. 3 Q. You said the courthouse, you don't mean this 4 courthouse? 5 A. No, not this one. This would be the U. S. 6 courthouse, federal courthouse. 7 Q. And what is this? 8 A. This is The Courier-Journal building right here, 9 and this is the Standard Gravure building right here; the blue 10 background is Standard Gravure. This is Sixth Street right 11 here, and this is Broadway coming here. They didn't let me 12 get in the helicopter; I didn't get to go up in this so... 13 Again, you're looking in an easterly direction here. This is 14 Standard Gravure. This also here is also part of Standard 15 Gravure. 16 Q. Where is Armory Place on there? 17 A. Armory Place is this street right here. See 18 where this white building in here, where this car is going, 19 he's on Armory Place and it goes up to Broadway. 20 Q. And the street just -- 21 A. This is Chestnut right here. This is the WHAS 22 building. This is Chestnut. This is on Sixth Street, we're 23 facing south. This is right in front of the Standard Gravure 24 entrance, 643 South Sixth Street. This was a graded entryway 25 into the area where the elevator was at and the set of steps. 130 1 MR. SMITH: Excuse me, Your Honor. Maybe it 2 should be pointed out that the plant had been closed by the 3 time this video was made. 4 A. Yeah. The plant had been closed by this time. 5 This is the elevator Mr. Wesbecker had ed. The one 6 thing it shows is a door to the steps in there. You can see 7 the elevator. This is going up to the reception area here. 8 There was a reception desk right here at that point in time 9 and another little back area there. This goes into the 10 executive offices. Sharon Needy was here; Angela Bowman was 11 shot in this area here. Like I say, this was closed at this 12 point in time and everything had been taken out. The desks 13 and so forth had been taken out. 14 This leads into the executive offices, that door 15 does. Looking down, you're looking at an easterly direction 16 at this point in time. Going back again, this is the area 17 where the reception desk was at. There's a hallway here to 18 your left where some other offices were located at. Here to 19 your right is Mr. Shea's office. Going back in to look up 20 towards the -- there's the elevator he came off of, this is 21 the lobby area, reception area. 22 Q. Is that the hallway that he walked down, sir? 23 A. Yes. This is a hallway that he walked down. 24 There's no indication in our investigation that he ever went 25 down this hallway here. There were other people working down 131 1 here but no indication that he ever went down that hallway. 2 He walked straight down this way here. This area right up 3 here is where Paula Warman was shot. She was standing outside 4 this office here. 5 This again is another hallway that leads to 6 other offices. Again, there's no indication that Mr. 7 Wesbecker ever went down that area there. 8 This is a large conference room here that 9 there's a pantry actually between this and Mr. Shea's office. 10 There's another way of getting in Mr. Shea's office from this 11 conference room here. 12 This is another row of offices here and hallway 13 that Mr. Wesbecker did not go down. That was a patched-up 14 area where a bullet had grazed. The area here to the right is 15 a conference room. At one time it was Mr. McCall's office, 16 the vice-president. There was a shot fired through the door 17 that sheared off a leg of a conference table and ended up 18 lodged right next to that plug there. 19 This office here is the insurance office or this 20 is where Jacqueline Miller, she was back here. This is where 21 there was a number of files, file cabinets. Mr. Wesbecker did 22 fire into that -- this office here. 23 Q. Is that also known as the human relations 24 office? 25 A. Human relations, yes. Paula Warman was found in 132 1 here. This is Mr. McCall's office directly across the hall. 2 This area goes -- again we're going east. This area goes out 3 into what they call the bindery area. If you look back that 4 way, that is a tunnel that leads to The Courier-Journal 5 building; they are connected at that point. This was in an 6 elevator that Mr. Wesbecker came. He opened the elevator; he 7 stepped onto the elevator to go down. Before the elevator 8 door shut, Mr. Stein came along and opened -- hit the button 9 and the elevator came back open, and at that point in time he 10 was shot. Now you're looking into the bindery area there. 11 The door begins to close, it doesn't close all the way; Mr. 12 Stein is shot in this area here. Mr. Husband is shot and 13 found here, and Mr. Forrest Conrad is shot and found here. 14 And again to the right is an area that goes to a tunnel that 15 goes over to The Courier-Journal building. 16 This is an elevator that goes down to the 17 loading dock. It comes off of Armory Place. You can see out 18 here, this is part of the loading dock here and this area over 19 here is where Armory Place is actually at. Nobody in this 20 area saw Mr. Wesbecker come through there, people working, 21 there's no indication he ever came out any farther than this. 22 He came over here to this area here and takes the stairwell 23 that goes down into the basement area. 24 Q. What was he carrying as he got to this point? 25 A. He was carrying the AK-47, and he also had a gym 133 1 bag that contained several rounds of ammunition and two 2 Mac-11s and a bayonet. The gym bag was found in this area 3 here underneath these steps here; that's where the gym bag was 4 located at, with all the rounds of ammunition, the extra 5 magazines, the two Mac-11s and the bayonet. There's never any 6 indication that he ever took it farther than this, in talking 7 to eyewitnesses. There's no indication he took it into this 8 area here. 9 Q. What weapons did he take from that point on? 10 A. The AK-47, the Sig Sauer nine-millimeter, and 11 the .38. This area here is where Mr. Seidenfaden and Hatfield 12 were working for Marine Electric, and they were both shot as 13 he came through here and saw them. They're back in this area 14 right over here. I'm going facing north at this point -- I'm 15 sorry, south, facing south at this point in time. This room 16 here is what they called the rubber grinder room. There was a 17 machine in here. Mr. Sallee was working at this machine right 18 here when he was shot. Usually they stored numbers of rolls 19 of paper and so forth were stored along in here. Andrew 20 Pointer was in this area here working when he was shot by 21 Mr. Wesbecker. 22 Q. Mr. Wesbecker's still moving in the area in 23 which the camera is moving? 24 A. Still moving in the way that he's moving. In 25 fact, passes Mr. Pointer. You can tell it's a very narrow 134 1 hallway with paper and so forth and he actually brushed 2 against Mr. Pointer to get through. After Mr. Wesbecker walks 3 through this area, Pointer actually follows him through this 4 area here and collapses down in here. This is the area here 5 where he had the conversation with Mr. Tingle, in this area 6 here. Some of these machines I believe had been removed at 7 that point in time. 8 These set of steps here lead up to the pressroom 9 area. This is where Mr. Barger was coming down the steps and 10 was shot. Again, he's traveling south toward Broadway is 11 where he's traveling at this point in time. To the left over 12 here would be where Armory Place was at. He comes up -- this 13 is the pressroom area right here. To the right, Lloyd White 14 is working on his machine between these machines here and he 15 is shot in that location. 16 These are very large machines, and we had to 17 have them shut it down. It's extremely loud. Again, he's 18 traveling towards Broadway. Broadway is up along through 19 here. This glass you see here is the supervisor's office. 20 This is the break room area here. Again, supervisor's office 21 there; no one was in that office at that time. In here was -- 22 shot was Mr. Fentress, Mr. Ganote, Mr. Campbell, Mr. Gorman, 23 Mr. Hoffmann and Mr. Scherer were all in this location and all 24 shot in here. This door leads to the locker room. There's 25 indication that Mr. Wesbecker came into this office here 135 1 because a magazine was found inside this office from the 2 AK-47. He did enter this office here. According to 3 eyewitnesses, after he had shot, he entered this office and 4 then came back and shot again into the break room area here. 5 James Wible was standing over here. He's shot 6 over here. Mr. Wesbecker takes a nine-millimeter out and 7 killed himself in front of these offices here, right outside 8 of here. 9 (LIEUTENANT BURBRINK RETURNS TO THE WITNESS BOX) 10 Q. Lieutenant Burbrink, let me ask you, if you 11 would, please, sir, to step down. 12 This is the same drawing, Your Honor, as 13 Defendant's Exhibit -- is it 163, Robin? 14 MS. FISHER: Yes, sir. 15 Q. And let me ask you, if you would, please, sir, 16 to take this pen, and can you mark and explain on this 17 document -- now, this is just the street level for the moment, 18 and this is Sixth Street, this is Armory Place, Broadway is up 19 that way. 20 A. This would have been Chestnut right here. WHAS 21 building is right over in here. 22 Q. Can you indicate by marking on this document the 23 route that he followed, sir? 24 A. Yes. This is the street level. Mr. Wesbecker 25 parked his car right outside the door here. In other words, 136 1 that's where it was located later on and the contents of the 2 car was actually inventoried. 3 Q. Came in this entrance here off of Sixth Street; 4 right? 5 A. 643. Entered -- there's an outside grille door 6 and enters into another area, goes through a plate glass door 7 into here. Turns to his right and gets into the elevator 8 here. The stairwell -- also you could take the stairwell up 9 there. The doorway to the stairwell was here, but he went on 10 the elevator. 11 Q. All right. Now, sir, to get you acclimated 12 again... 13 A. This is Sixth Street here, Broadway, Armory 14 Place, Chestnut; north, south, east and west. He comes up 15 this elevator right here, gets off the elevator here. This is 16 where Sharon Needy and Angela Bowman are at, here at this 17 reception desk here. He shoots both of them at that point in 18 time, comes back and walks in through this area here. 19 Q. All right. Now, let me interrupt you for just a 20 second, sir. This stairwell that comes up, is there a door 21 right there? 22 A. Yes, there is a door right there. It was shut. 23 Q. All right. I didn't see that in the video that 24 we made and maybe that's because of this corner here or 25 whatever, but there is a door there; correct? 137 1 A. There is a door there; yes, sir. It was shut. 2 Q. All right. Now, after he goes through the door 3 behind the receptionist area, would you continue to mark the 4 route that he followed, sir? 5 A. Okay. He goes into this area here, the offices, 6 and he -- actually, this is the only point in time he 7 backtracks. After he goes in here, he comes back, back 8 outside to retrieve his bag, and he looks at Angela Bowman at 9 that point in time. She's shot. She's down behind the desk 10 here. He then comes back, goes back out here, and the door 11 closes and he continues on this way here. He never deviates; 12 he does not go into Mr. Shea's office; he does not come down 13 this hallway here; he continues on. 14 And at some point in time in this area here, 15 Jackie Miller and Paula Warman come out to see what was going 16 on, and Paula Miller was shot. 17 Q. Paula Warman, you mean? 18 A. Paula Warman. I'm sorry. What did I say? 19 Q. Paula Miller. 20 A. Paula Warman. Jackie Miller. She's shot and 21 they go back on in. He continues on this way here. Again, 22 there's no indication that he ever went down this hallway. 23 The only indication that we knew he fired a shot from this 24 location here is eventually we found a casing of the AK-47 25 inside this conference room here, which the door was open. If 138 1 he would have shot, the casing would have come out. When we 2 found the casing, we knew he took a shot in this area here and 3 on this way here. 4 He continues on and fires one shot into this 5 room here. There's no indication he ever entered that room 6 because it's through the door. The shot goes through the 7 door, shears off the leg of the conference table and ends up 8 lodged in the wall over here. He shoots into this -- Jackie 9 Miller is back in here. Paula Warman retreats to this office 10 back in here. He shoots into this office here, wounding 11 Jackie Miller and also shooting up the files. There were rows 12 of files that were there. 13 But he continues on and goes through here. This 14 is where he goes into this area here and catches the elevator. 15 Again, the elevator starts to shut. John Stein doesn't know 16 what's going on; he comes around from the tunnel from The 17 Courier-Journal here; he opens the door; as the doorway back 18 opens up, he's shot. Mr. Husband is over here; Forrest Conrad 19 is over here; they take off running and they're shot. He then 20 gets on the elevator and takes it down to the loading dock 21 area. 22 Q. You mentioned earlier on the video that there 23 was a tunnel over to The Courier. 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And this is the elevator that he went down on; 139 1 correct? 2 A. Yes, it is. 3 Q. And would you point out where the bindery is and 4 where the tunnel is over to The Courier-Journal. 5 A. This area here is the bindery area; it's called 6 the middle bindery. This is also the same area where they 7 have stacks of books and so forth. This goes over to a tunnel 8 to The Courier-Journal over here. This actually goes to The 9 Courier-Journal building. 10 Q. Is that an above-ground-type tunnel or an 11 overpass? 12 A. I really don't know. I know it just empties 13 over into The Courier; I'm not sure about anything like that. 14 Q. All right, sir. Now he gets on the elevator 15 there. 16 A. Again, this is Sixth Street, Armory Place, 17 Broadway here, Chestnut here. Comes down this elevator here, 18 comes around and enters into a stairwell and goes down. This 19 is a loading dock area here that basically is all open. This 20 is where trucks park to get their -- drop off their material 21 and pick up material here. This is Armory Place. And there's 22 actually a gate -- I'm sorry -- a fence here, and there's a 23 guard shack back over in here somewhere with an exit out to 24 Armory Place. At this point in time the WHAS building is over 25 here, but he just comes off the elevator and goes around. 140 1 Talking to people who worked in this area, they did not see 2 him coming through that area; he just came right on through 3 here and around. 4 Q. On the video, when you get off the elevator, can 5 you actually see daylight out here on this loading dock? 6 A. Sure. You can see -- you can see all the way 7 down -- this area here, this loading dock was on the outside 8 so you can see all the way down that, and just on the other 9 side of this little office here you can also see outside and 10 you can see Armory Place. 11 Q. So he comes off the elevator on -- I guess this 12 would be the street level. 13 A. Yes, it is the street level. 14 Q. All right. And enters a stairwell; correct? 15 A. He comes down this area here, down these steps. 16 This is where he stashes the gym bag, underneath these steps 17 here, so it's back underneath there. Okay. So he leaves it 18 there. That's where we found it with the two Mac-11s in it, 19 several magazines for both the nine-millimeter and for the 20 AK-47, a bayonet, several other loose rounds of ammunition, 21 some gun-cleaning stuff. Leaves that underneath here. 22 He continues on to this area here and comes 23 through here. Now, Mr. Hatfield and Mr. Seidenfaden are 24 working in this area here. They're working for Marine 25 Electric. They're a different company; they're not working 141 1 for Standard Gravure, they're doing some work there. And they 2 are shot standing in this area here. He comes around them, 3 goes down this way. At this point in time he sees Paul 4 Sallee. He actually goes in, shoots Mr. Sallee, comes back 5 out, and he continues down the hallway there, again, going in 6 a northerly direction. Mr. Pointer is standing back in here 7 and he is shot. Wesbecker continues on and passes Mr. 8 Pointer. Now, this area here has got a little rubberized 9 container thing where you can put heavy stacks of things to 10 move them along, conveyer belt, basically. 11 Q. What are these things marked along there? 12 A. Those would be the rolls of paper that were 13 stacked along through there on the right-hand side at the 14 time. So he goes over this and comes through this little area 15 here and comes out here. This is where Mr. Pointer actually 16 follows him, comes back and is found in this area here. 17 He talks to Mr. Tingle around this area right 18 here, so he actually comes down this way and talks to Mr. 19 Tingle. Mr. Tingle takes off and goes back and goes down 20 along some machines and runs back that way. Wesbecker then 21 continues on here, shoots Mr. Barger who's coming down these 22 steps here from the pressroom and then goes up the steps. 23 Okay. Again, this is Armory Place up here, 24 Broadway, Sixth Street. This is the ground floor. Where he 25 actually entered was way over down over here in this building 142 1 over here. He comes up these steps here. Between these 2 machines here, rows of machines here is Lloyd White; he's 3 working. He shoots Mr. White, continues down along through 4 here. He looks in the foremen's office, opens this door and 5 shoots Mr. Hoffmann, Ganote, Scherer, Fentress, Gorman, in 6 this area here. 7 There's one thing -- Mr. Wible was standing over 8 here. We don't have any idea of what point in time, if he was 9 shot before he enters there, after he enters there and goes 10 back to reload or at some point in time we really don't know. 11 We have nobody that can tell us that, because these people in 12 here are scrambling for their lives. He's out here, Mr. 13 Wible's in the shop. 14 He then leaves here and goes into the foremen's 15 office and reloads his AK-47, comes back in again into this 16 office here to the break room there, fires again, comes back 17 out, kneels down in this area here, puts a Sig Sauer 18 nine-millimeter underneath his chin and shoots himself in the 19 head and he dies there. 20 Q. All right, sir. Let me hand you, sir, a series 21 of photographs that have been marked as Defendant's Exhibits 22 Number 3 to 6, 12 to 138, and 142 to 150. And let me ask you 23 to just very briefly, sir, look through that series of 24 photographs and tell us if those are items that you can 25 identify. 143 1 A. Yes, sir; they are. 2 MR. STOPHER: All right. Your Honor, we'd move 3 the admission of these photographs as Defendant's Exhibits 3 4 to 6, 12 to 138, 142 to 150 and ask that they be distributed 5 to the jury. 6 MR. SMITH: No objection, Your Honor. 7 JUDGE POTTER: Be admitted. 8 SHERIFF CECIL: (Hands document to jurors). 9 Q. Can we get you to give us a brief narration, 10 sir. Obviously, Defendant's Exhibit No. 3 -- the numbers are 11 on the back of these, by the way, Lieutenant. So the first 12 one is Defendant's Exhibit 3, and obviously that is the 13 entrance at Sixth Street, and I believe that's you in the 14 photograph; correct, sir? 15 A. That's correct. That's me. That was before the 16 plant closed. And that was not on the day that the incident 17 happened; that was in the summertime before the business 18 closed. 19 Q. Going to the next photograph, sir, which is 20 Defendant's Exhibit 4, would you tell us what that is? 21 A. Yes. That's Mr. Wesbecker's car. That red 22 vehicle there is Mr. Wesbecker's car, and it's photographed in 23 the basement of police headquarters. That's where we did the 24 processing on the vehicle at that point in time that day. 25 Q. And the next photograph, sir, which is -- it has 144 1 619 down in the lower right-hand corner. 2 A. That is a picture through the back of the car, 3 the hatchback of the car. Where the backseat is it's folded 4 over, and there is what I would call a mover's quilt when you 5 see when people move they put over the top of their furniture. 6 That's what's lying in the back there in the back of that car, 7 in the back of that vehicle. 8 Q. And the next photograph, 620? 9 A. Again, that's the photograph of the back of the 10 vehicle with the door open. As you can see, the seat is 11 folded over. That's the backseat that's folded over. 12 Q. And then the next one is apparently upside down, 13 at least in my edition, and shows generally again the Sixth 14 Street entrance? 15 A. Yes. That's the Sixth Street entrance. To the 16 right would be Broadway. To your right there would be 17 Broadway. 18 Q. And, again, another general view of that on the 19 next two photographs; correct, sir? 20 A. Yes. Those pictures were taken the day of the 21 incident. As you can see, the police cars are still there in 22 front of the building. 23 Q. Now we go to the photograph that's numbered 24 Defendant's Exhibit 15 on the back, and would you describe 25 that again for us, please, sir? 145 1 A. Yes. This is the area where the elevator is on 2 the first floor on the street side there. This is that little 3 foyer area there where the elevator is. You see the man in 4 the striped shirt to your right there? He's standing by the 5 elevator. 6 Q. The next photograph? 7 A. That is a picture of the elevator that goes up 8 to the reception area of Standard Gravure. 9 Q. And the next one, sir, which is No. 17? 10 A. That shows the door in that same area there. 11 You can see the floor is the same with the leaves from the two 12 before. That's the door that leads to the stairwell that goes 13 up. Now, the stairwell was not used at that point in time, 14 but that is the door that leads to the stairwell. 15 Q. What is that metal object up there above that 16 door, that arm sticking up; do you know, sir? 17 A. It used to be where the security camera was at. 18 Q. Was there one there on the day of the incident? 19 A. If there was it was not operative. I'm not 20 aware there was. 21 Q. The next photograph, sir, which I think is 22 Defendant's Exhibit 18? 23 A. This is standing from inside by the reception 24 area there, looking at the elevator. You're standing where 25 the reception area is. This is where Sharon Needy and Angela 146 1 Bowman would have been at, looking at this area right here. 2 Q. And is this the door that opened and Mr. 3 Wesbecker was standing there with the weapons? 4 A. He had the AK-47 out and he had his gym bag. 5 Actually, when the doors open, he throws the gym bag out into 6 the middle of the floor and comes up shooting with the AK-47. 7 Q. Lieutenant Burbrink, did -- well, I'll save that 8 question for later. Let me proceed ahead with these 9 photographs. Let's go to number -- I think it's 19, sir. 10 A. Okay. This photograph was taken again after the 11 building had been ready to tear down. You can see the -- 12 right in the right-hand corner of the photograph down there is 13 an orange plug there. That's where the reception desk used to 14 be at, right in that area there. But that door leads to the 15 executive offices of Standard Gravure. 16 Q. And the next photograph? 17 A. That is again turning a little bit to the right 18 there. You're again looking into the reception area where 19 Angela Bowman was shot at. 20 Q. And No. 21, sir? 21 A. That is with the door open to the executive 22 office, standing inside the reception area looking down the 23 hallway. 24 Q. The next one is -- has a number 14 in the lower 25 right-hand corner, sir? 147 1 A. Yes, sir. This is the actual desk that day as 2 it appeared that day, September 14th. 3 Q. And is that the desk in the reception area? 4 A. Yes, it was, sir, desk in the reception area 5 there. 6 Q. Next photograph numbered 23? 7 A. This is just inside that office area there 8 inside the executive office, looking in an easterly manner 9 down the hallway there. 10 Q. And the dark door down at the end of the 11 hallway, where does that lead, sir? 12 A. That leads to the bindery area. 13 Q. The next photograph which has a 4 in the lower 14 right-hand corner? 15 A. Yes. That is a photograph that was taken that 16 day, the day of the incident, again looking the same way. 17 That's the door to the bindery area there. 18 Q. Photograph No. 5, the next one. 19 A. Okay. Again, that is a photo that leads, taken 20 that day looking down at the bindery area, and to the left 21 there is an office. There's no indication he went to the 22 office. You can see on the one side a scrape mark on that 23 wall there. That's where a projectile traveled down the 24 hallway and scraped. And, actually, you can see a -- the 25 little wall that comes out to the side there, you can see a 148 1 hole at the bottom, a dark mark there where that hit. 2 Q. Next photograph, No. 6? Upside down. 3 A. Again, the door to the right actually leads to 4 the big conference room next to Mr. Shea's office, and that is 5 the door -- straight in front of you there, this door here is 6 the one that leads to the bindery area. 7 Q. This door with the glass in it and the 8 reflecting -- 9 A. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. 10 Q. All right. And the next photograph, I think 11 No. 8 is actually perhaps even further back up the hall. It 12 might be slightly out of sequence. 13 A. Yes, sir; it is. It is up the hallway farther. 14 This is right in front of Mr. Shea's office. 15 Q. And No. 7? 16 A. Again, you're back in front of Mr. Shea's 17 office. This is taken at the day of the incident. You can 18 see the marks on the side where some of the bullets struck, 19 the marks on the floor there, the powdery mark. Some of the 20 bullets struck the side of the wall, and when it struck that 21 drywall it caused that powder. 22 Q. The next photograph, sir, which has the number, 23 29 on the back of it? 24 A. Yes. This is -- if you can see down this 25 darkened area here that's the door to the bindery. This is 149 1 that office that was just to the left away from the conference 2 room, and what he's pointing to there is where the bullet hole 3 had been repaired in that area there. 4 Q. And the next one, I believe, is the same area? 5 A. Yes. It's a gouge mark. It's the same area. 6 This is leading -- the hallway that leads down away from 7 there. To the right here where this guy back in through here 8 is the bindery area, and again it's a scrape mark from the 9 projectile. 10 Q. The next photograph which is numbered 31 on the 11 back? 12 A. Okay. This is the conference room -- I'm trying 13 to think which conference room it is. This is the conference 14 room that was up above where McCall's office used to be at. 15 This is the conference room just across from the one office 16 where Paula Warman was at, and I never can remember that 17 office's name, I'm sorry. 18 Q. And the next photograph which has the 26 in the 19 lower right-hand corner? 20 A. You can see there, that's what I talked about. 21 That's where he shot through the door, hits this table here 22 and shears off this leg, as you can see it on the bottom 23 there, and continues on and lodges into the wall. 24 Q. Number 27, the next one, sir? 25 A. Again, another showing where you can see he shot 150 1 downward, shears off this leg and continues up, and there's a 2 little white mark on the back of it. You see the plug where 3 the plug is in the wall? Just down to the right you see the 4 little white mark? That's where the projectile ended up at. 5 Q. The next photograph? Again, I think it's 6 No. 34, shows that hallway and the door to the bindery? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. Number 35 shows the door? 9 A. Yes, sir. Shows the door that leads into the 10 conference room, I believe is what that is. 11 Q. All right. Number 36, sir. 12 A. Okay. This -- the metal door with the glass in 13 it actually leads out to the bindery area. The door to the 14 left leads into the insurance office or personnel/human 15 relations office, and this is the doorway that Paula Warman 16 and Jackie Miller were standing in front of when Paula Warman 17 was shot. 18 Q. The next photograph, which has the number 124 on 19 it, sir? 20 A. These are files that were inside that room, the 21 human relations room. And you can see where the bullet had 22 entered those files and tore up some of the files. Right 23 there in the middle of your photograph you can see that where 24 it's distorted there. 25 Q. The next one that's numbered in the white 151 1 circle, again shows the bindery room door? 2 A. Yes, sir. Bindery room door. Door to your 3 right is that conference room. The back door to the right 4 there is McCall's office. 5 Q. The next one, which has No. 128 in the lower 6 right-hand corner? 7 A. This is the human relations office. There are 8 some file cabinets there. Where the computer is on your 9 right-hand side, there's a door there with an office. And 10 that was Paula Warman, where she went back into and retreated 11 to. 12 Q. All right. No. 129, the next one? 13 A. Again, now you're looking from inside the 14 office, out. As you can see through the door there, you can 15 see that blue door there? The blue door is actually the door 16 to the bindery. The door that's opened into that office space 17 there just to the right of the computer is where Paula Warman 18 had gone into and locked the door there. What we're looking 19 at is standing at about where Jackie Miller was at. 20 Q. Next one, 125, sir? 21 A. Yes. This is some of the files that were shot 22 up that were on the back wall there in the human relations 23 office. 24 Q. No. 133? 25 A. This is an office, and, to be quite honest with 152 1 you, I don't know if this is Paula Warman's office or if it 2 was Mr. McCall's office. 3 Q. All right, sir. No. 1? 4 A. That was the door to the bindery. 5 Q. No. 3, I think we've seen before? 6 A. Yes, sir. Again looking back towards the door 7 to the bindery. 8 Q. The one that's marked 45 on the back, does that 9 show the door's open into the bindery, sir? 10 A. Yes, it does. That was taken the day that we 11 were there in the summertime. 12 Q. Next one, which is No. 46? 13 A. Okay. This is -- as soon as you come out of the 14 bindery area there -- I'm sorry -- out of the offices there 15 and entrance to the bindery area there and you come out the 16 doors, this would be standing right there looking at the 17 elevator that Mr. Wesbecker took to go down to the basement, 18 or loading dock. 19 Q. Next one, No. 47? 20 A. Yes. This is right in front of the elevators, 21 again looking straight into the elevator. It's a freight 22 elevator. 23 Q. And is this where Mr. Stein pushed the button 24 and the doors came back open? 25 A. Yes, sir. This is where Mr. Stein was about 153 1 standing right in that area there. 2 Q. All right. The next numbered photograph is 48? 3 A. Yes. This is looking into the bindery area from 4 basically inside the elevator area. 5 Q. And is that the area in which Mr. Husband and 6 Mr. Conrad were shot? 7 A. They were shot a little bit off to the right 8 from there; yes, sir. 9 Q. All right, sir. The one numbered 65? 10 A. Sir, that's the location in the area there that 11 Mr. Husband and Mr. Conrad were shot at. 12 Q. Number 50? 13 A. Again, you're looking at the same photograph, 14 pretty much the same photograph you looked at earlier into the 15 bindery area. 16 Q. All right. And 51 is the same? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. The one that's numbered 52, sir? 19 A. That is the door to the elevator in the loading 20 dock area. This is where he would have went down from the 21 bindery area into the loading dock area, and this is where he 22 would have exited at. 23 Q. And then the one numbered 53? 24 A. Okay. Standing there from the elevator, you're 25 looking out, you're looking towards Chestnut Street, you can 154 1 see the light where there's light at the end there. That is 2 actually the loading dock area itself. To the right there is 3 Armory Place. 4 Q. And... 5 A. This just -- we just moved out closer to the 6 area there to the loading dock area. As you can see, we're 7 almost at the loading dock itself. To the right there is 8 where the trucks back up between those poles. 9 Q. One numbered 55? 10 A. Okay. That's looking to the right. By standing 11 right by the loading dock area you're looking to the right. 12 It's looking towards Armory Place. Beyond that wall is Armory 13 Place. 14 Q. Fifty-six? 15 A. That is a freight elevator in that same general 16 area. 17 Q. All right. Fifty-seven and fifty-eight are in 18 that same general area, as well, as on the loading dock? 19 A. Yes, sir. On the loading dock there. 20 Q. All right. And then 59, sir? 21 A. This is the door that leads down to the very 22 basement where he stored the gym bag. 23 Q. And 60? 24 A. Again, you're going down a stairwell there. 25 Q. Sixty-one, sixty-two, sixty-three? 155 1 A. Continuing on down the stairwell. 2 Q. And 64, sir? 3 A. Sixty-four is the bottom of the stairs. As you 4 can see, in this area here, you see the framing for the steps 5 that go down, the concrete framing. Underneath there's a 6 hollow area down there and that's where we found the gym bag 7 that contained the two Mac-11s and the extra ammunition and 8 magazines. We found them underneath that. If you look like 9 at where the second step is there, it goes up? It was 10 processed back in behind there. 11 Q. One ninety-one? 12 A. Okay. This is the gym bag. It was -- as you 13 can see, the one Mac-11 is pointing towards you. As you got 14 it up, you can see the trigger housing of the Mac-11 there, 15 and all the ammunition and so forth was in that gym bag. 16 Q. One ninety-three is the same? 17 A. One ninety-three is the same thing. We had 18 removed the gym bag from underneath there in order to take 19 pictures, and this was in the location where Mr. Hatfield and 20 Seidenfaden were shot. It's on a bench there. 21 Q. Lieutenant Burbrink, did you have an opportunity 22 to pick up that gym bag or duffel bag? 23 A. Yes, sir; I did. 24 Q. Would you tell the jury approximately how much 25 that bag weighed? 156 1 A. Probably about 60 to 65 pounds. It was very 2 heavy. 3 Q. And were the contents of that bag weapons and 4 ammunition, and then I think you mentioned some other items 5 like a cleaning fluid and so forth? 6 A. Yes, sir. I have the -- what was in there in a 7 duffel bag, if you'd like me to... 8 Q. If you would tell us what was in there. 9 A. One Mac-11 nine-millimeter pistol; another 10 Mac-11 nine-millimeter pistol; five 7.62-millimeter banana 11 clips, which is the large clips that fit the AK-47. The AK-47 12 shoots out a 7.62-millimeter bullet is what it shoots out. 13 Q. How many rounds are in each of those clips? 14 A. Thirty. 15 Q. And there were how many of those clips? 16 A. Five of those. 17 Q. So that would be -- 18 A. A hundred and fifty rounds. 19 Q. -- 150 rounds in magazines for those two 20 MAC-11s? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. And what else was in the bag? 23 A. There were eight nine-millimeter clips or 24 magazines which fit inside the -- some of them fit inside the 25 Mac-11 and some of them fit inside a Sig Sauer. Those would 157 1 hold -- the ones inside the Mac-11 would hold 25; the ones 2 inside the Sig Sauer would hold 15. 3 Q. And there were eight of those clips? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. What else was in the bag? 6 A. A bayonet. There were 558 rounds of 7 nine-millimeter ammunition, in addition to what he had loaded 8 up in these magazines. 9 Q. Five hundred and fifty-eight, nine-millimeter 10 rounds of ammunition just loose? 11 A. Yes, sir. Some of it was -- I believe it was in 12 the boxes and some of it was loose. You get about -- a case 13 is 500 rounds; that's a case of ammunition. 14 Q. What else was in the bag, sir? 15 A. There was 571 rounds of 7.62 rounds of 16 ammunition for the AK-47. Again, this was -- some of it was 17 packaged up, some of it was loose. There was 562 rounds. 18 Again, a case holds 500. 19 Q. And what else was in the bag? 20 A. A yellow cloth, a box of firearm cleaning 21 patches, and a plastic bottle of gun conditioner. 22 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, this might be a good 23 time to take a short break or an afternoon break. 24 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Ladies and gentlemen, 25 we'll take the afternoon recess. As I've mentioned to you-all 158 1 before, do not permit anybody to talk to you about this case 2 or give you any information about it; do not discuss it among 3 yourselves or form or express opinions on it. We'll take a 4 15-minute recess. 5 (RECESS) 6 SHERIFF CECIL: The jury is now entering. All 7 jurors are present. Court is back in session. 8 JUDGE POTTER: Please be seated. 9 Lieutenant, I'll remind you you're still under 10 oath. 11 LIEUTENANT BURBRINK: Yes, sir. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher. 13 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, I think I forgot -- 14 maybe I did or didn't -- to move the admission of the 15 videotape, which is Defendant's Exhibit 389. 16 JUDGE POTTER: Be admitted. 17 Q. Lieutenant Burbrink, I think we got up to the 18 photograph that is marked on the back Defendant's Exhibit 66, 19 and it has 193 down in the lower right-hand corner. I think 20 that's where we were when we took the break. 21 A. Yes, sir. That's again just a gym bag as it 22 sits there. 23 Q. All right. Now, sir, let's go on. The 24 photograph that has No. 171 down in the lower right-hand 25 corner, I think that may be repetitive, but that's the area 159 1 under the stairwell? 2 A. Yes. It's the area under the stairwell that the 3 bag was found at; yes, sir. 4 Q. And the next one, which is 192? 5 A. Again, that's looking into the bag. You can see 6 the several magazines there and you can see the Mac-11 with 7 the trigger housing there. 8 Q. And the next one, which is No. 69 on the back is 9 again the stairwell? 10 A. Yes, sir. It shows a little bit better more 11 light to the area where the bag was found at. 12 Q. Now, the one that's numbered 70? 13 A. This is standing inside the area where Mr. 14 Hatfield and Seidenfaden were shot, looking at the door as it 15 came open. 16 Q. Okay. No. 71? 17 A. That's just from the door there looking into the 18 area where they were at. 19 Q. All right. The next one, which I think is 20 upside down? 21 A. It is. It's again standing inside there, 22 looking at that doorway. 23 Q. All right. And that comes out of the stairwell, 24 sir? 25 A. Yes, sir. It comes out of the stairwell. 160 1 Q. And then the one that has No. 160 in the lower 2 right-hand corner? 3 A. Yes, sir. On the very right, you can see that's 4 the doorway, the very right of the picture there where you can 5 see E-X-I-T up there, that's that doorway. 6 Q. Is that where he came from? 7 A. That's where he came from. Exactly. That's 8 exactly where he came from, and he entered down and walked 9 down through here. Now, the area here where this white 10 machinery is and there's some blue piping in that, that's the 11 area that Mr. Hatfield and Seidenfaden were working in that 12 day in that area there, and as he came in through there he 13 shot them. 14 Q. No. 162? 15 A. Again, this shows that same area where they were 16 shot at from by the door. 17 Q. One sixty-five? 18 A. Now you're walking closer towards where the 19 rubber grinder room was at. 20 Q. One sixty-six? 21 A. To the left is the door, to the right here is -- 22 there's a cage there that they had stuff. And actually when 23 we took the photographs of the bag, it was actually right here 24 to the right over here is where we had it sitting at. 25 Q. Okay, sir. One fifty-four, kind of the same? 161 1 A. Yes. This is taken that day, and this is the 2 area that Mr. Hatfield and Seidenfaden were working in, this 3 area where this piping and so forth was at. 4 Q. And I think No. 155 is another view of that same 5 general area, sir? 6 A. Yes, sir; it is. 7 Q. One fifty-six may be more of the same; right? 8 A. Yes, sir; it is. Exactly. 9 Q. One fifty-eight I think shows the bag again? 10 A. Shows the bag. It's from behind the bag. And 11 if you look straight down there you're looking into the 12 hallway there that Mr. Wesbecker takes and shoots Mr. Pointer 13 in. That's that area there. So you're looking in a southerly 14 direction at that point in time. 15 Q. Are you talking about the tunnel? 16 A. Yes, sir, the tunnel. 17 Q. All right. One fifty-nine is again the area 18 with the Marine Electric equipment? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. The next one, the next two actually, No. 82 and 21 No. 189, same general area again, sir? 22 A. Same general area. Also the next one, 84 is 23 also -- these were taken, the ones with the barrels in it were 24 taken the day we went back in the summertime. 25 Q. All right. And the same is true of 85? 162 1 A. Yes, sir. You can see that the door up there 2 where it says "no smoking," to the left that's the door that 3 Mr. Wesbecker came out of. 4 Q. Let's go to the one that's numbered 86 on the 5 back, sir. 6 A. Yes, sir. That again is the tunnel going out 7 that way, and to the left there, that doorway there is the 8 rubber grinder room where Mr. Sallee was at when he was shot. 9 Q. And in the distance is the tunnel that goes into 10 the reel room under the pressroom? 11 A. Yes, sir; it is. 12 Q. Eighty-seven is? 13 A. Again, this is the rubber grinder room. You can 14 see the one location there is where Mr. Sallee was standing 15 at. There's a work panel right there he was working at. 16 Q. Next one, which is unfortunately upside down, is 17 No. 153, and is that the grinder room? 18 A. Yes, sir; it is, rubber grinder room. 19 Q. All right. And the same is -- 20 A. The next one you can see -- if you look in the 21 middle of the picture just a little bit to the right, you see 22 a little work panel there with some red buttons on it and so 23 forth; that's the area Mr. Sallee was working in at that panel 24 right there. 25 Q. Let's go to No. 90, sir. 163 1 A. This is looking down the tunnel. This was not 2 the day of the incident; this was the day in the summertime 3 when we went back. 4 Q. And does this have the rolls of paper in the 5 tunnel? 6 A. No, sir; it does not. 7 Q. Now, No. 180, sir? 8 A. This is going to be looking from inside the 9 tunnel back towards where Hatfield and Seidenfaden were shot 10 and Mr. Sallee was shot, so you're looking back. This is the 11 area Mr. Pointer was standing in. This would have been about 12 where Mr. Pointer was shot, looking back through that tunnel. 13 You can see the paper drums or rolls there to your left-hand 14 side and you can see it's very narrow through there. 15 Q. About how wide was it between those ends of 16 those rolls of paper and wall to the side there? 17 A. About two and a half to three feet. 18 Q. One seventy-nine, sir? 19 A. Again, the same thing. It's a little bit better 20 lighting, but you're back a little bit farther looking back 21 through the tunnel back towards where Mr. Hatfield, 22 Seidenfaden and Sallee were shot. 23 Q. One that's numbered 93 on the back? 24 A. Okay. This is -- again, this is a day in the 25 summertime when this place was shutting down. In the tunnel 164 1 area there you're looking back into this one little small room 2 over here to your left-hand side. That is actually a roll of 3 the type of stuff that was actually in that tunnel there that 4 day of the incident. 5 Q. And is this again moving or looking in the 6 direction in which Mr. Wesbecker took his route? 7 A. Yes. This is looking into the way that he went. 8 Q. And No. 94? 9 A. Yeah. This is the little -- the rubber thing 10 there in the foreground of the picture is that conveyer belt 11 that I talked about that they move the paper on. 12 Q. The black thing on the floor? 13 A. The black thing on the floor is the conveyer 14 belt. He crossed over that and went through that little room 15 there where it arches away, comes up and arches. That's where 16 Mr. Wesbecker moved. 17 Q. The next one is upside down and is numbered 95 18 on the back; 95 and 96, I think, are actually part of the 19 same. Is that that conveyer belt that you were talking about, 20 sir? 21 A. Yes. That's the conveyor belt. As you clear 22 that -- you can't see. As you clear that one hallway there 23 where Mr. Pointer was at, this is that conveyer belt that goes 24 down along through there, and you might be able to see it 25 better on that one. That is looking down this way here. This 165 1 is all open down through here and this was that conveyer belt 2 and these were those bales of paper there. 3 Q. Okay. Now, where is the tunnel on here again? 4 A. The tunnel is right here. This is where Mr. 5 Sallee was shot. He came walking through here. What you're 6 looking at in those photographs there is looking back this way 7 down through here. This conveyer belt moved paper products. 8 This is another little work area there that he moved into. 9 Q. That's the area where you mentioned the slanted 10 roof? 11 A. Right. The slanted roof is on this side here. 12 Q. Oh, okay. Now, one that's numbered 97, sir? 13 A. Okay. That's that little -- that little area 14 there where it slants. 15 Q. Same little area we were just talking about? 16 A. Right. And you're looking into the next room. 17 Right in there is where you're at; yes, sir. 18 Q. All right. 19 A. Where the little indentation in the thing, 20 that's where this indentation is in the wall right there. 21 Q. Okay. And then the next photograph, which is 22 numbered on the back 98? 23 A. Right. This is where you make the right-hand 24 turn, the sharp right-hand turn at the end of that where he 25 makes the sharp right-hand turn, that's where you're looking, 166 1 that way. 2 Q. All right. And the sharp right-hand turn that 3 you're talking about is... 4 A. Right there; yes, sir. 5 Q. Right here? 6 A. That's the way you're looking. 7 Q. Coming out of the tunnel, coming through those 8 series of rooms and takes a right-hand turn? 9 A. Sharp right-hand turn. Yes, sir. That's the 10 way you're looking. 11 Q. And now he's coming out into the reel room? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. This is not only upside down, it's backwards, 14 416, sir. 15 A. That again is the same thing at the incident 16 that day that looked at. Mr. Pointer was found -- the first 17 roll of paper you see with the blue attached to it, and the 18 one closest to you with just the white -- do you see that -- 19 he was found in between those rolls. That's the way Mr. 20 Wesbecker walked when he walked in between there. And Pointer 21 actually followed him through that way and then collapsed in 22 that area there. 23 Q. All right, sir. Next one is 417. 24 A. This is looking back. From standing where I 25 showed you where Pointer was at that day, looking back into 167 1 that little room, that little work area room there. That's 2 what that is, is looking back into that. 3 Q. Next one that's numbered on the back, 101, I 4 think there are actually a series of them here, 101, 102, 103? 5 A. Yes. This is just as you clear that corner 6 there and you're looking into the reel room there with the 7 machines and so forth. To the left of that -- and you can't 8 see it because the wall blocks you -- is the steps that go up; 9 to the right is where he talked to Mr. Tingle at. 10 Q. And if I could again refer to the big drawing, 11 we're talking about -- 12 A. Right there. That's where you're talking about, 13 right there. Yes, sir. 14 Q. Out in this area here? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. All right. Looking at the ones that are 17 numbered 105, 106, 107, 108, do those show that area where he 18 makes the turn and talks to Mr. Tingle? 19 A. Yes, sir; it does. Where the -- and in 105, 20 424, you see the Diet Sprite can on top of the area there? 21 Q. Yes, sir. 22 A. That's about the location that he talked to 23 Tingle at right there, where that Diet Sprite can is at. And 24 you see those rolls sitting right there? That's the area that 25 Mr. Tingle runs down behind this machine that's right there in 168 1 front of you, that's the one he runs down, away from him. 2 Q. All right. Now, Mr. Tingle ran back in this 3 direction? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. Toward the bathroom? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. Moving on ahead, sir, to 109? 8 A. Okay. This is standing in front of that one 9 machine we just saw, this is where the stairwell goes up and 10 leads up into the pressroom there. 11 Q. The yellow? 12 A. The yellow stairwell; yes, sir. That's where it 13 leads up. This is where Mr. Barger was shot and killed. 14 Q. Three seventy-two, the next one? 15 A. Yes. This is that day, that location. Again 16 you see the stairwell going up there and all the products that 17 are around there. Mr. Barger was found just on the other side 18 of the stairs, at the foot of them. 19 Q. Okay. And the photographs 111 and 112, do they 20 also show that stairwell, sir? 21 A. Yes, they do. They show how close it is to the 22 pole and leads up to the pressroom there. 23 Q. All right. Now we're up into the pressroom in 24 the sequence of photographs? 25 A. Yes, sir; we are. 169 1 Q. And this is actually a floor above the reel 2 room? 3 A. Yes, sir; it is. 4 Q. And this is where he comes up the steps? 5 A. Yes, sir. Where you're standing at there, he 6 has just come up to the top of the steps and you're looking -- 7 directly to your right there in this area here is where Mr. 8 Lloyd White was at, working. It's looking that way, yes, if 9 you're looking down. 10 Q. This way? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. Okay. Then 114, I think it is? 13 A. That's standing at the top of the steps looking 14 back down to the reel room. 15 Q. And the same is true for the one that's numbered 16 385 in the lower right-hand corner? 17 A. Right. That's coming back down a little bit 18 away from there along the route that Mr. Wesbecker took 19 looking back down into the stairwell there. 20 Q. All right. Three eighty-six is generally the 21 same view but from a distance away? 22 A. Yes. A little bit farther up in the area there, 23 still looking back towards that area there. 24 Q. One seventeen? 25 A. One seventeen is looking back towards -- you're 170 1 facing towards Broadway there. Those are the machinery and so 2 forth on the left-hand side there. 3 Q. And are the supervisors' or foremen's office in 4 the break room at the end of that long corridor there? 5 A. Yes, sir; they are. 6 Q. And this is a press on one side and another 7 press on the other side? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. The one numbered 289? 10 A. This is that pictures that day that were taken 11 looking back at that area towards the break room and the 12 supervisor's room. All the machines are off to the left and 13 there's other machines off to the right. 14 Q. In other words, there's a row of presses on each 15 side and a corridor down the middle? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. And then the one that's numbered 119, sir? 18 A. This is as you clear those presses there, you're 19 looking -- the office to your left is the supervisor's office; 20 the office to the right -- or the door to the right, I'm 21 sorry, is the break room there. 22 Q. And the one that's numbered on the back next is 23 one numbered on the back 120? 24 A. Okay. What you're looking at there is you're 25 standing in front of the supervisor's office and you're 171 1 looking back towards Armory Place. Those are the machines 2 that you saw that were along your left as you moved along the 3 corridor; those are the same machines. 4 Q. In other words, looking at the map here, if you 5 were standing about right here, it would show the units of the 6 press along over in here? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. All right. The next photograph, which is 121? 9 A. Shows the lounge area or the break room, what 10 they called the break room. 11 Q. And 122? 12 A. Shows the supervisor's office with a break room. 13 The door was open there to your right. 14 Q. The one that's numbered 262? 15 A. That was that day. That was the room into the 16 supervisor's office. And you can see the phone's turned 17 around there? 18 Q. Yes, sir. 19 A. Mr. Hoffmann had tried to use that phone. After 20 he was shot, he had gone to try and call his fiancee. He had 21 gone and tried to use that phone. But the problem with it 22 was, when Mr. Wesbecker shot himself, the bullet entered here, 23 exited the top of his head and went right through the phone 24 line. There's no phones to that area there. So Mr. Hoffmann 25 tried to make a phone call out, and there was no phones in 172 1 there. That's the phone he tried to use. 2 Q. Where was the phone line? 3 A. It's in the supervisor's office. The phone line 4 was actually on the outside between the supervisor's office 5 and the break room area is where it was at, up in the ceiling. 6 Q. Number 256, sir? 7 A. That's -- you see the reddish or pinkish cloth? 8 Right next to it there is what is a banana magazine. It's a 9 magazine for the AK-47. This was in the supervisor's office. 10 This is where after he had shot -- Mr. Wesbecker had gone into 11 the break room and shot the people in the break room, he 12 wheeled back out and unloaded his magazine and put a fresh 13 magazine in and then came back into the room and fired again. 14 Q. Two fifty-five? 15 A. Again, that's a close-up of the magazine. You 16 can see it's what they call a banana magazine because it 17 resembles a banana. It holds 30 rounds of the 7.62 18 ammunition. 19 Q. The next one, which is No. 126, sir? 20 A. This is the break room. Obviously, this was not 21 that day; this was taken later. The door you see to the right 22 actually leads to the locker room. 23 Q. And the next one, 127? 24 A. Actually a little more of the break room there. 25 Q. One twenty-eight? 173 1 A. This is from standing inside the break room 2 about where next to the refrigerator on the one before that, 3 the picture before that. You're standing by the refrigerator, 4 just next to the refrigerator looking back out. You're 5 looking out the window there from inside the break room 6 looking outward. 7 Q. And a bulletin board over on the right? 8 A. Yes. Time clock and so forth is there on your 9 right. 10 Q. Yes, sir. Two seventy-four is in the break 11 room? 12 A. That's in the break room. The day of the 13 incident this is the way the location was at that time. 14 You're looking at the top, the very top part of that. 15 Q. And 130? 16 A. This is the locker room. If you open that door 17 that was in the break room there, that's what you're looking 18 at into the locker room, shower room area there. 19 Q. One thirty-one, one thirty-two, one 20 thirty-three? 21 A. Those were looking into the supervisor's office. 22 Q. One thirty-four? 23 A. This is the area Mr. Wesbecker was lying in, 24 right outside there. In your foreground there to your right 25 that's the area he would have been lying in. If you look, you 174 1 see the stairs there to your right or actually in the middle 2 of the steps? 3 Q. Yes, sir. 4 A. If you look a little bit to your left you see 5 the bricks in the wall? That's where Mr. Wible was standing 6 at when he was shot. Now, as I testified earlier, when I came 7 in, these reels -- along this wall here you've got these reels 8 up here on the left-hand side of your photograph. One of the 9 EMS personnel had taken the AK-47, placed it on the board at 10 the bottom of that. That's where the AK-47 was at when we 11 located it that day. 12 Q. Take a look at 135. 13 A. That's again just a photograph of the outside of 14 the pressroom, break room and the supervisor's office. In 15 that area there is where Mr. Wesbecker committed suicide. 16 Q. One thirty-six? 17 A. That was the area -- underneath there was a 18 board, underneath these rollers there was a board, and that's 19 where the AK-47 was located at. Somebody had moved it, one of 20 the first people there, EMS personnel, had moved it away from 21 him. 22 Q. One thirty-seven? 23 A. This is looking back over to the area where 24 Mr. Wible was shot. Mr. Wible was standing in the area where 25 that roller is there against that wall. Because they weren't 175 1 supposed to be in the break room. There was an order out that 2 you weren't supposed to go in the break room until you were 3 actually relieved. And so he didn't want to get in trouble, 4 so he stood out there and waited for the next shift to come 5 in, and that's where he was shot at. 6 Q. One thirty-eight? 7 A. This is standing by where Mr. Wible was at, 8 looking back towards the supervisor's office and the break 9 room. Beyond that wall that you see in the background there 10 is Armory Place. 11 Q. All right. One forty-two, sir? 12 A. That leads out into the corridor area in this 13 thing here that actually leads out into the... 14 Q. Down in here, sir? 15 A. This is the double doors right here. Leads out 16 into this area here. You go and you end up at The 17 Courier-Journal station over here is where it is. That's 18 these double doors right here. 19 Q. Okay. One forty-three? 20 A. This is -- again, you can see the stairwell to 21 your left; to the right on the very right hand about middle 22 way in the picture there, you can see the supervisor's door. 23 These rollers are the ones where the AK-47 was found 24 underneath. 25 Q. And I think this one is out of sequence, 144. 176 1 That shows the long line of presses and the corridor in 2 between? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. One forty-five? 5 A. That shows the -- where Mr. Wible was standing. 6 Q. One forty-six? 7 A. This is another -- there's a door there that 8 goes to the locker room off that same place we showed? 9 Q. Yes, sir. 10 A That's where that location's at. 11 Q. In other words... 12 A. Down there; yes, sir. 13 Q. Right in there. Okay. One forty-seven? 14 A. That's the locker room area. 15 Q. One forty-eight? 16 A. That's the corridor that leads into The 17 Courier-Journal outside park area there or leads actually into 18 The Courier-Journal offices there. 19 Q. One forty-nine? 20 A. That is the -- the elevator goes up and the 21 glass doors just past the elevator there lead you out to that 22 outside park area. That's where it leads you out to. It says 23 double doors. See where the X is for the elevator? That's 24 the elevator -- no, keep going. There's the elevator, and the 25 glass doors, as you see, the double glass doors are right next 177 1 to it. The other way, towards you. 2 Q. This way? Am I going the wrong way? 3 A. Yeah. 4 Q. All right. 5 A. What you're looking at here, here's the 6 elevator. You're standing about right here for this 7 photograph. 8 Q. Oh, I see. 9 A. Here's the elevator. Here's the double glass 10 doors that lead out. This leads out to the security area here 11 with a guard station here. 12 Q. This leads out to what some people call Poodle 13 Park and so forth? 14 A. I've never called it that. I don't know. 15 Q. Okay. All right, sir. And 150, sir? 16 A. That's standing at the double doors, you're 17 looking through the two double doors. You're looking out onto 18 Armory Place. 19 Q. All right. Lieutenant Burbrink, let me refer 20 you to an exhibit that's already been put in the record. Let 21 me hand you a copy of Photograph 69 -- well, let me give you 22 the Defendant's Exhibit Nos. 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 139, 140 and 23 141. Let me ask you, sir, to take a look at those 24 photographs. 25 A. Yes, sir. 178 1 Q. Can you tell us what those photographs 2 represent? 3 A. Yes. This one, No. 7 -- Defendant's Exhibit 4 No. 7 is basically on the floor the contents of what was in 5 the bag, the duffel bag. And also -- you-all don't have 6 these? 7 UNIDENTIFIED JURORS: Yes. 8 A. Okay. I'm sorry. What you're looking at is the 9 ammunition. You see loose ammunition in the foreground there. 10 You see the several banana clips lying there. To the right, 11 this is the AK-47. There's also on the 7.62 ammunition that's 12 bagged up and stuff is right here to your right. And I assume 13 some of that is nine millimeter over here to the right, also. 14 On the blanket, it looks like is what the ammunition or the 15 weapons were. You've got some of the magazines. In fact, as 16 you see, see where the four magazines are here, the banana 17 magazines? Right here, these two right here, there's a 18 magazine here and you see a bayonet. These two magazines here 19 and these two magazines here are taped together. 20 This was supposedly a Vietnam trick, where you 21 taped two magazines together back to back, so after you shot 22 your full magazine out, all you had to do was click it, turn 23 it back over, jam it back up and you're ready to go. This is 24 for combat; this is not for just playing around shooting. 25 This is a combat-type mode that was taught in Vietnam; that's 179 1 what they taught them to do. The people in Vietnam came back 2 with that. They duct-taped them together. So what you had 3 there, you had extra ammunition without ever having to feed or 4 look for another magazine in your equipment. You had it right 5 there with you. You just hit it; after you're done and that 6 one's dry, you turned the thing over, flipped it up and put it 7 back in. That's how he had his tape. That's for the two 8 Mac-11s. And those are what you see -- the Mac-11s are what 9 you see right underneath the green paper here, and this one 10 right here is the Mac-11. 11 He had a .38 caliber Smith & Wesson Chief 12 Special was in his pocket. He also had the Sig Sauer is the 13 other thing that's there, as you see, as the weapon. That's 14 the automatic; that's what he shot himself with. And the 15 AK-47 is this long rifle here to your right. Again, I guess 16 the next one -- you can see it a little bit better in this 17 next photograph, Defendant No. 8. You see how the magazines 18 are taped? There's actually six of them together and all 19 three of them are taped. Those are for the Mac-11s. The Sig 20 Sauer is the automatic pistol that's open just to the right 21 there in the middle to the left of the gym bag and there's the 22 magazines for it. There's the Smith & Wesson with it open. 23 Here again is another Mac-11 with some magazines for it. 24 Here's the AK-47, and here's all the magazines he had for the 25 AK-47 and then all the ammunition you see there. 180 1 Q. Were those magazines loaded, sir? 2 A. Some of them were and some of them were not; 3 most of them were. 4 Q. All right. 5 A. Again, you see -- and you can see the ones that 6 were and were not in the next photograph at the top left-hand 7 corner. 8 Q. This is the one that's numbered on the front, 9 709? 10 A. Exhibit No. 9, 709. If you're going from the 11 bottom, two, three and four, see the gold in them? 12 Q. Yes, sir. 13 A. That is the -- you can see the 7.62, that's 14 those; they're loaded up. These other ones, there's actually 15 one, two, three, four. There's actually four that have them 16 in there. There's two, the top one and the bottom one are not 17 loaded. Those are the ones that he used during the shooting 18 spree. He used those, and we collected those back. You can 19 see the bayonet is just to the very top where the banana clip 20 is. You see where he taped the double -- the way he taped the 21 doubled one, the next thing is the bayonet, and the rest of it 22 is ammunition. You see some of the box ammunition. He's got 23 the ammunition in boxes and some of it loose down here. These 24 bags here right above the Three with the oil in it, those are 25 these 7.62. You can buy them at any gun show. You can go and 181 1 buy 7.62 ammunition bagged up like this. 2 Q. Now, sir, let me refer you over to the 3 photographs that are numbered 327, 324 and 323 in the little 4 right-hand white circle. 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. Would you tell us what those show. 7 A. Three twenty-seven is the two weapons that were 8 on him when we located him and what was in his pockets. The 9 black -- 10 Q. Let me back up, sir. You found these where? 11 A. They were on Mr. Wesbecker when he was -- when 12 he was -- on his person, either in his hands or in his pocket. 13 This stuff here was in his pocket or in his hands. 14 Q. At the time that he was found dead? 15 A. At the time he was found dead; yes, sir. The 16 black revolver, this one here with the brown handle is a 17 little Smith & Wesson Chief Special. The plastic bag 18 contained the .38 ammunition for that weapon; it was in his 19 pocket, also. This was found in his pocket. He never used it 20 at any point during this operation. The Sig Sauer, as you see 21 it here, is the automatic -- semiautomatic. You see in the 22 receiver there, in the middle of the gun, you see how that 23 gold piece there is? What happened is, when he killed himself 24 he stuck the barrel so far up underneath his chin that when he 25 shot, it didn't have a chance to recoil -- it would 182 1 automatically recoil and spend out the ejected shell, well, it 2 was so heavy, it didn't have a chance to do that. It caught 3 in his chin and so it didn't allow the magazine or the 4 cartridge to escape. And that's what you see there, what they 5 call stove piping. What he did is he stuck the gun so far up 6 underneath here and pulled it. 7 And that's pretty much coincident with what you 8 see in a suicide. If somebody really has an intention upon 9 killing themselves, they stick it up so far because they don't 10 want to make a mistake. They stick it up so far, and when 11 they shoot, there's no room between their chest and so forth 12 for that thing to shoot out the cartridge. That's what 13 happens, it sticks. And when it goes back up, you see that 14 right there. So the weapon is what they called out of 15 battery; it could not be fired again. 16 These magazines, one magazine came from inside 17 the weapon. It was actually inside the weapon; we took it 18 out. And the other magazine was in his pocket, that's 327; 19 324 is the AK-47 with the banana clip removed. The one shell 20 you see lying there by itself was actually in, ready to be 21 fired. And what happens is, is when an automatic weapon or 22 semiautomatic weapon, it feeds from the clip or magazine into 23 the actual weapon itself and is ready to be fired, that was 24 the one that was actually being ready to be fired. When you 25 remove the magazine, there's still one up in the chamber. 183 1 It's chambered, ready to be fired. And what you have to do is 2 you have to open it up and breach it and have that thing 3 popped out, and that's what we did for that. That was in the 4 one that came in, then the next one to be fired. That's in 5 324. 6 And then 323 is all of them together. These are 7 the weapons that he carried with him during the shooting spree 8 here. Obviously, he had the bag with him during the time 9 also, but these are the weapons that were fired. The AK-47 10 was fired and the Sig Sauer, which is the bottom middle of 11 your photograph there. 12 Q. Let me show you some other photographs of these 13 same items, sir. I will represent to you that these are not 14 the exact -- these are not his weapons, but would you identify 15 for us the type of weapons shown in this photograph, sir? 16 A. The two top ones are what they call Mac-11s. 17 They're a knock-off, like, of an Uzi, and they're not 18 automatic weapons, which means when you pull the trigger they 19 don't automatically shoot everything out. You have to pull 20 the trigger one at a time, but it will feed itself in there. 21 The magazines go up underneath -- where the handle is, that's 22 where they go into, in the handle there. So what you do and 23 why he had them taped is you put the handle in there, you 24 shoot all you can, you release it, you turn it back over, you 25 put it back up and you shoot. The knife is the bayonet that 184 1 he used that would affix to the AK-47. 2 Q. Again, sir, is this similar to the type of AK-47 3 that he used on this occasion? 4 A. Yes, sir; it is. You see the same safety 5 mechanisms and so forth in there and the safety release and 6 the release for the magazine and so forth. That's a .38 Smith 7 & Wesson, what they call a Chief Special. 8 Q. And this, sir? 9 A. That is a Sig Sauer nine-millimeter. It holds 10 15 in the magazine, 1 in the chamber, for a total of 16. 11 Q. The magazine fits where? 12 A. Fits in the handle. You see the bottom of it, 13 the bottom of that photograph, the little lip? That's the 14 base of the magazine. Yes, sir. 15 Q. And then this photograph, sir? 16 A. That's the Mac-10 with the magazine inserted 17 into it. 18 Q. This is the magazine here? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. Let me hand you a document. Do you recognize 21 this document, sir? 22 A. Yes, sir; I do. It's part of a document that 23 was written to Captain Schwartz talking about the property and 24 the evidence recovery. In this case, our case would have been 25 89197 is the number we used in homicide. 185 1 Q. And is this part of the police investigating 2 file? 3 A. Yes, sir; it is. 4 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, we move the admission 5 of Defendant's Exhibit 477 and ask that it be distributed. 6 JUDGE POTTER: Be admitted. 7 SHERIFF CECIL: (Hands document to jurors). 8 Q. Lieutenant Burbrink, this document is captioned 9 "Recovered at the Standard Gravure Plant"? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. And what is this? 12 A. This is the weapons and the ammunition that Mr. 13 Wesbecker had with him when he walked into the Standard 14 Gravure plant that morning of Thursday, September the 14th, 15 1989. 16 Q. And it includes? 17 A. Includes what was in his gym bag, also; yes, 18 sir, all the contents that was in the gym bag and what he had 19 on his person. 20 Q. You mentioned that he had on his person two 21 pistols, one was a nine-millimeter Sig Sauer, and the other 22 one was a .38 Smith & Wesson caliber revolver; correct? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. Do you know how he carried those or where he 25 carried those on his person? 186 1 A. According to the investigation, the Sig Sauer 2 was in his right pants pocket is where he drew the weapon 3 from; the .38 caliber was recovered from his left front pants 4 pocket. 5 Q. Now, sir, based on the investigation, did you 6 make any determinations about the route that he took? 7 A. It was a predetermined route, basically, where 8 he was going to and where he wanted to end up at. 9 Q. Where did he want to go to and where did he want 10 to end up? 11 MR. SMITH: Your Honor, may we approach on that, 12 please? 13 JUDGE POTTER: I'll sustain the objection. 14 Well, maybe we'd better. 15 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 16 MR. SMITH: He hasn't been identified as an 17 expert to disclose this information and, B, it would be 18 speculation. 19 JUDGE POTTER: He doesn't know anything more 20 about what was in his mind than the jury does. 21 MR. STOPHER: I'm asking about his investigation 22 and what he found about the route that he took. And it's a 23 simple matter of fact that the route was not circuitous; it 24 was direct, and that's what this man investigated. It's part 25 of his investigation. 187 1 JUDGE POTTER: I don't think that that's the 2 kind of thing an expert or anybody can express an opinion on. 3 He can say where he went. If you want to ask him what's the 4 most direct route from here to there or was there another 5 entrance or anything like that, but for him to say it was 6 predetermined or he had a goal in mind or anything like that, 7 I'm going to sustain the objection. 8 MR. STOPHER: Okay. 9 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 10 Q. Lieutenant Burbrink, in terms of the route, from 11 the point where Mr. Wesbecker entered the building to the 12 point where he wound up, what did your investigation show 13 about that route? 14 MR. SMITH: Same objection, Your Honor. 15 JUDGE POTTER: I'm going to sustain the 16 objection. It needs to be a more focused question or 17 something. 18 Q. Okay. Let me see if I can approach it this way, 19 Lieutenant. In connection with that route, were there 20 deviations or wandering off of a path? 21 A. No, there was not. There are times when he saw 22 people run but -- through our investigation, he saw people run 23 down the side hallways, especially there into the executive 24 offices, and he never chased those people and never went back 25 down after those people. He continued along in a straight 188 1 manner going from -- past the executive offices of Shea to 2 McCall and past the one office that he had business up there 3 before in, which was Human Relations. He went through all of 4 those offices there. He did not deviate and go into any other 5 offices. 6 Q. From that point, from the human relations office 7 and the management offices to the supervisor's office and the 8 break room, was there another more direct route to get from 9 that point to the supervisor's office, based on your 10 investigation? 11 A. There was not. He could have taken the steps, 12 which would have -- carrying that load, which was about 65 13 pounds, plus the AK-47 and everything else would have been 14 taxing on a man of his condition. It was a lot easier to take 15 the elevator. The only time he deviated and came out there is 16 when John Stein happened to open the elevator door. 17 Q. Lieutenant Burbrink, based on your 18 investigation, was Mr. Wesbecker in control or out of control 19 of his physical faculties? 20 MR. SMITH: Your Honor. 21 JUDGE POTTER: I'm going to sustain the 22 objection. 23 Q. Lieutenant Burbrink, did you find any evidence 24 of lack of fire control? 25 MR. SMITH: Same objection, Your Honor. Lack of 189 1 fire control? 2 JUDGE POTTER: Let me see you-all up here. 3 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 4 JUDGE POTTER: What is lack of fire control? 5 MR. STOPHER: Not firing randomly at nothing. 6 JUDGE POTTER: I think this man can tell where 7 what bullet went and what he shot, but as to lack of fire 8 control or any kind of opinions about what this -- 9 MR. STOPHER: I'm just asking what he found 10 based on his investigation. 11 JUDGE POTTER: And he probably has an opinion 12 about that. He probably has an opinion about whether or not 13 Prozac caused this, but it's not an opinion he can express 14 here. He can say what he saw, felt and touched. And Mr. 15 Smith has let him expound on some things as he was going 16 through the building and that's all right, but for him to say 17 it was a predetermined route or -- I mean, the jury, that's 18 their job, and he can't really add or subtract to what he 19 found physically. What else have you got planned for this 20 fellow? 21 MR. STOPHER: Just a few other things. Nothing 22 much beyond this. 23 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith, do you want to do it 24 in the morning? 25 MR. SMITH: I can certainly finish today if I 190 1 have more than five minutes. 2 MR. STOPHER: It will be close. 3 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 4 Q. Lieutenant Burbrink, were there alternatives 5 along this route for escape? 6 A. Yes, sir; there were. There were several of 7 them. When he went out to the basement, took the elevator to 8 the basement he could have walked out and got onto Armory 9 Street and walked away from there. He could have turned 10 around and came back through the route that he took and went 11 back down the steps, back down the elevator and got into his 12 vehicle and left. There were -- he knew the plant -- the 13 plant is so humongous, I mean, there's numerous places you can 14 go to in that plant and get away and hide out and also leave 15 through separate entrances. 16 Q. Lieutenant Burbrink, on this occasion, did Mr. 17 Wesbecker change magazines in the AK-47? 18 A. Yes, sir; he did. There's indication that he 19 changed magazines twice during his route. 20 Q. Would you describe for us what sort of movements 21 that requires to change those magazines? 22 A. Can I approach the picture there? It would be 23 easier to show them on the picture. 24 Q. Yes, sir. 25 A. An AK-47 is a semiautomatic. And what happens 191 1 is after you shoot and your magazine is dry, some weapons -- 2 like on an automatic pistol -- like on a semiautomatic pistol, 3 the last round holds the thing back and it won't feed it, and 4 you can see it's open, and you can tell that the cover is open 5 because the gun is jammed back. You then insert your 6 magazine. 7 An AK-47 does not do that. Basically what you 8 do is after you shoot, eventually, you click -- the gun just 9 clicks. There's nothing to it. In order to move the 10 magazine, this piece right here, you take -- this is a small 11 handle. You take your thumb and you press that up, take your 12 hand, put it around the magazine and you have to rock it out. 13 It's got to come out this way. If you try and pull it 14 straight down it won't come out because of the configuration 15 of it. You push that, you rock it out, and then you discard 16 it. And when you put the other one back in, you have to do 17 the same thing. You take it, put this portion up here first, 18 then rock it back in and lock it. If you don't lock it and 19 it's not seated, it won't fire. 20 And then you take the additional thing of -- 21 this thing right here, you take this bolt and pull it back and 22 let it go, and that feeds the first round into that. 23 Otherwise, you can put the magazine in there and you can still 24 click it all day long; it won't go off. Because what happens 25 is the pressure from when the projectile goes, that gas that 192 1 comes back is what causes them back in battery to feed another 2 one up. It injects the casing out of there and causes another 3 one to feed up into it. 4 So without the explosion going off in there, you 5 can click that thing all day long. Until you pull this thing 6 back and get one up in there, you don't have anything. You've 7 got a 15-pound piece of metal there that's worth nothing. So 8 it's not easy to do. It's a lot of training and so forth. 9 That's one of the things that we do a lot of in 10 SWAT training, because under stressful situations that's 11 something that people mess up on. They don't get their 12 magazine seated, even if -- if you have it in, if it's not 13 seated right, the first time you pull the trigger or when you 14 try to fire one in there, the magazine will fall out. You 15 won't have anything. So in SWAT situations, in ours, I teach 16 to put stress on by time and by having empty magazine there or 17 bad magazines in there and so forth. You make them change 18 magazines, making them do that type stuff because it's very 19 stressful. And when you're excited and stuff like that, 20 that's hard to do, to get that thing in there and seat it just 21 the way you want it. Otherwise, you know, if you're just 22 standing there doing it, it's not too bad, but under a 23 stressful situation it's very difficult to do that. And those 24 are the steps you have to be able to do to reload that. 25 Q. Lieutenant Burbrink, in addition to the work 193 1 that you did at the scene, did you interview people in 2 connection with these events on September 14, 1989? 3 A. Yes, sir; I did. I went back and interviewed 4 most of the victims at some point in time. There were only a 5 few of them that I did not interview, but most of them I did. 6 I went to the hospital the day afterwards and talked to people 7 in the hospital. I went back several times. Some of them I 8 couldn't talk to initially because they were tubed and so 9 forth. 10 Q. Lieutenant Burbrink, have you had any training 11 in interviewing people who have been victims of violence? 12 A. Yes, sir. I've taken investigative courses that 13 are involved in that, my time in the homicide unit, and I also 14 took a course from Reed & Associates out of Chicago, it's a 15 one-week course that just deals with interview and 16 interrogation. I teach interview and interrogation to other 17 members of the police department. 18 Q. You mentioned that you had an opportunity or did 19 interview certain of the victims of the shootings on 20 September 14, 1989? 21 A. Not on the 14th. I mean, the members were 22 there, but we didn't interview them on the 14th, it was 23 subsequent days I interviewed them. 24 Q. I meant the victims of the accident on September 25 14. 194 1 A. Oh, I'm sorry. Yes, sir; I did. 2 Q. You interviewed some of those? 3 A. Yes, sir; I did. 4 Q. Did you interview Gordon Scherer? 5 A. Yes, sir; I did. 6 Q. Did you do that personally? 7 A. Yes, sir; I did. That was on the Friday, 8 the 15th. 9 Q. And when you interviewed Mr. Scherer, what sort 10 of procedures did you use in connection with that interview? 11 A. Well, basically I always introduce myself to 12 them and tell them who I am and what I'm here for. I want to 13 explain to them that I'm here to get their eyewitness account 14 of what happened. I then take some pertinent information from 15 them, basically their name, their full name, ask them their 16 middle name, their date of birth, their Social Security 17 number, their address, their phone number, where they work, 18 how long they've worked there, this type of information first. 19 Q. Why do you ask for that type of information 20 first? 21 A. Number One, it's something they can answer. 22 Anybody can answer your date of birth, unless you want to lie 23 about it. But, I mean, basically you can answer your date of 24 birth; it's not a hard question. You know your address. It 25 puts them at ease. It puts them in comfort with what you're 195 1 asking. If you start off with a very difficult question, they 2 immediately shut themselves off from you. So you want to 3 start out with something that's very easy and just simple 4 things to do with the Social Security number and things of 5 that nature. And you need the basics. I mean, you have to 6 have that information later on to try and follow up some 7 information from them. 8 Q. Do you have, sir, your record of the interview 9 that you did with Gordon Scherer? 10 A. I've got a copy of the letter, yes, sir, that I 11 wrote. 12 Q. Would you refer to that, sir, and tell us what 13 information Mr. Scherer gave you about Joe Wesbecker and his 14 relationship with Joe Wesbecker and knowledge of Joe Wesbecker 15 before September 14, 1989? 16 A. Mr. Scherer advised me that he worked with Mr. 17 Wesbecker in the pressroom for several years. 18 MR. SMITH: I'm sorry. Lieutenant, could I 19 have -- I have several interviews that you made. 20 THE WITNESS: This is the September 15th, 1989, 21 and I believe it's prefaced with Interview at Hospital with 22 Gordon Scherer, Michael Campbell, William Hoffmann, and Going 23 to Standard Gravure to Collect Casings. 24 MR. SMITH: Has it got a cover letter on it? 25 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. They're all the same. 196 1 September 15th is what the date is. 2 MR. SMITH: It's dated September 15th? 3 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir; it's dated September 4 15th. They're all going to have the same cover letter because 5 of the victims and so forth. 6 MR. SMITH: Here it is. Thank you. 7 Q. All right. Would you go back to where you were, 8 sir? 9 A. Yes. I'm on Page 5, for your information, sir. 10 Q. What information did Mr. Scherer give you? 11 A. He advised me he had worked with Joe Wesbecker 12 in the pressroom for several years and that he had always 13 talked about coming back and getting everyone. He said that 14 Mr. Wesbecker was harassed by the management because he felt 15 they would not take him off the folder. Basically, he said 16 that they wouldn't give him his disability and were attempting 17 to screw him out of it. 18 Q. In the letter summarizing this, sir, it says 19 that Mr. Scherer became very emotional when speaking about 20 this incident at Standard Gravure. 21 A. Yes, sir. When we began talking about it and he 22 was talking about the other people who were in the room with 23 him and so forth and about the -- when he really became 24 emotional was when he was talking about his fear, I guess, of 25 the fact that he didn't know if Wesbecker was coming back in. 197 1 He had been shot. He had crawled over into the locker room 2 and so forth, and there was water coming in the break room 3 there, and he was very scared. And that's when he started to 4 get upset. At that point in time, I could tell he was getting 5 very emotional and very upset. He was in a hospital 6 situation. I didn't want to upset him any more, so at that 7 point in time I concluded the interview with him at that time. 8 Q. When he gave you the information that Mr. 9 Wesbecker had always talked about coming back and getting 10 everyone and that he had been harassed by management and 11 concerned with regard to the folder and disability, was he 12 upset and emotional at that time, sir? 13 A. No, not at that point in time. When he started 14 talking about the incident and who was in there with him in 15 the room. And you have to remember, this is less than -- a 16 little bit more than 24 hours after the incident happened when 17 I talked to him at the hospital. He became very upset because 18 of his friends and so forth. 19 Q. Is that unusual for you to interview a victim 20 within that short period of time after a violent event? 21 A. No. A lot of times it's the best time to do it; 22 things are fresh in their memory and so forth. Because a lot 23 of times, people who have traumatic injuries like that try and 24 suppress them. They don't want to go back over through that 25 and they try and change something. This way, it's a little 198 1 bit easier to get the information from them. It sometimes 2 puts them through a very emotional phase, but we find that's 3 the best time to try and get the information from them. 4 There's always -- a lot of times we'll go back afterwards and 5 talk to them later on, and especially if they're real 6 emotional and talk to them if there's some changes. 7 MR. SMITH: Your Honor, we'd object to the 8 standard procedure for being questioned. What is at issue is 9 what occurred on this date at this interview. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Sustained. 11 Q. Did you interview Michael Campbell? 12 A. Yes, sir; I did. I went from Mr. Scherer to try 13 to speak to Andrew Pointer, but I could not speak to him at 14 that time so I went down to Mr. Campbell's room, or actually 15 he was in SICU at the time. 16 Q. And were you able to interview Mr. Campbell? 17 A. Yes, I was. 18 Q. Was he able to give you his address? 19 A. Yes, he was. 20 Q. His phone number? 21 A. Yes, he was. 22 Q. His date of birth? 23 A. Yes, he was. 24 Q. His Social Security number? 25 A. Yes, sir; he was. 199 1 Q. Did you ask Mr. Campbell if he knew Mr. 2 Wesbecker? 3 A. Yes, I did. 4 Q. And what did he tell you? 5 A. He said he did and he worked with him for 6 several years. 7 Q. Did you ask him if he knew of any threats? 8 A. Yes, I did. I asked him if he knew of any 9 threats, and he advised he did. He states that Wesbecker told 10 him he was coming back and kill everyone several times. He 11 says that, "No matter what the conversation was with Joe 12 Wesbecker, at the end he would either be talking about guns or 13 coming back to kill everybody." 14 Q. Did you interview William Hoffmann? 15 A. Yes, sir; I did. He was also in SICU at that 16 time. 17 Q. Did you ask him his address? 18 A. Yes, sir; I did. 19 Q. Phone number? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. Date of birth? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. Social Security number? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. Did you ask him about Joe Wesbecker? 200 1 A. Yes, sir; I did. I asked him about it. He said 2 he had worked with Wesbecker for several years and knew him. 3 Q. What information did he give you about Joe 4 Wesbecker? 5 A. He states that that day when he saw Wesbecker, 6 before he saw him he heard some noises out in the pressroom 7 and sounded like a shotgun. He said that Kenny Fentress said, 8 "Oh, don't worry. It's probably just Wesbecker coming in to 9 finish everyone off." He stated they all laughed because it 10 was an ongoing joke that Wesbecker was going to come back and 11 kill everybody. Hoffmann told me -- Mr. Hoffmann told me that 12 Wesbecker always acted like he was tough, never really -- to 13 work with him, thought it was a joke; that he really wasn't 14 tough but he wanted people to think he was. And he said -- 15 also advised that Wesbecker even told him he was going to go 16 buy a turret for his car and put it on top of his car and ride 17 by and shoot everyone as they're going to their cars. 18 Q. Did he tell you how conversations would end up 19 with Joe Wesbecker? 20 A. He said every conversation would end up with him 21 by telling everyone he was going to come back and kill 22 everyone working in the pressroom. I even asked him if he 23 took him seriously, and Mr. Hoffmann said he didn't. 24 Q. Thank you, sir. That's all I have. 25 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith. 201 1 2 EXAMINATION ___________ 3 4 BY_MR._SMITH: __ ___ _____ 5 Q. Lieutenant Burbrink. 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. In connection with your attempt to interview 8 Mr. Scherer, did you ask him if he -- was he in SICU, also? 9 A. No. In fact, I think -- no, he wasn't in SICU, 10 I don't believe, at that point in time. I don't have it here 11 where he was at. 12 Q. He was in a regular hospital room? 13 A. I think he was. Yes. He was. Because the ones 14 in SICU were Andrew Pointer, Michael Campbell and Hoffmann. I 15 think that Mr. Hatfield and Paula Warman were in rooms, and I 16 think he was, also, and so was Jackie Miller. In fact, he was 17 released shortly thereafter. 18 Q. Mr. Scherer was in a hospital room. Did you ask 19 him what medication he had had that day before you interviewed 20 him? 21 A. No, I did not. But basically what I do is I try 22 to look and determine whether they're -- by asking them the 23 questions as far as their name and address, date of birth and 24 stuff, you can tell whether or not they're groggy on drugs and 25 stuff like that. That's another purpose for asking those type 202 1 questions. You want to determine if he's so out of it he 2 can't -- you know, he has a hard time telling you what his 3 date of birth is or hard time articulating to you what 4 happened. That's something you take into consideration, 5 especially on those in the hospital. 6 Q. My question, Lieutenant, is did you ask him -- 7 A. I did not ask him. 8 Q. -- what drugs he had been on? 9 A. No, sir; I did not ask him. 10 Q. Did you check with the hospital personnel 11 concerning what drugs they had administered to him? 12 A. No, sir; I did not. My determination was that 13 he could understand -- 14 Q. You made your judgment -- 15 COURT REPORTER: Excuse me. 16 Q. -- that he could -- 17 MR. STOPHER: Can he finish his answer? 18 A. I think I can finish my answer, sir. 19 JUDGE POTTER: Well, go ahead, Mr. Smith. I 20 thought he had. 21 A. No. I made the determination that -- 22 Q. I thought you were finished. 23 A. I'm sorry. We're trying to talk at the same 24 time. 25 Q. Julie doesn't like that. 203 1 A. No. I determined by that -- 2 Q. She can be mad at me or at you because I keep 3 doing it. And I bet she could be madder at me than you 4 because I know better. 5 A. No. By talking to him I felt that he could 6 articulate what was going on; that's why I determined that he 7 was not under the influence of any drugs that could not -- 8 that were mind altering or that he didn't understand. 9 Q. That was a judgment, though, that you made, sir? 10 A. Yes, sir. From my experience, from the years 11 I've been in homicide, from my experience in talking to people 12 who are high on drugs and also on alcohol and so forth, it's a 13 determination we have to make all the time. 14 Q. You've had experience seeing people who are high 15 on drugs? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. Under the influence of alcohol? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. Under the influence of narcotics? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. Under the influence of stimulants? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. Amphetamines? 24 A. Well, I mean, most of the people that I dealt 25 with didn't deal a lot with amphetamines. Speed. 204 1 Q. Speed? Stimulants of that nature? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. Stimulants are a real problem for you as a law 4 enforcement officer, are they not? The use of stimulants are 5 a problem for you, are they not? 6 A. For me personally? I don't use them; no, sir. 7 Q. No. This is serious. This is serious. 8 A. Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't -- I thought you were 9 asking me. 10 Q. In connection with crimes in this country, 11 individuals using stimulants. 12 A. Cocaine; yes, sir, that's a big problem with 13 using cocaine. 14 Q. Big problem. Causes people to commit violent 15 acts, doesn't it? 16 A. Cocaine does; yes, sir. 17 Q. Crack does, also, doesn't it? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. Amphetamines do, too, don't they? 20 A. Like I said, we don't deal a lot with 21 amphetamines, not -- in the areas that I worked we didn't deal 22 a lot with them, the pharmaceutical amphetamines. 23 Q. No. I'm talking about amphetamines like PCP and 24 things of that nature. 25 A. I thought you were talking about 205 1 pharmaceutical-type drugs. 2 Q. Okay. Include pharmaceutical drugs, Dexedrine. 3 A. I didn't deal a lot with that; no, sir, not in 4 the west end I did not. 5 Q. But you know there are stimulants that can 6 present problems for people; correct, sir? 7 A. That's correct. 8 Q. Now, Mr. Campbell was in the surgical intensive 9 care unit? 10 A. Yes, sir; he was. 11 Q. Surgical intensive care unit is a unit where 12 people who are in need of intensive care are being housed; is 13 that correct? 14 A. That is correct. They have just usually come 15 back from surgery of some sort. 16 Q. That was going to be my next question. Had Mr. 17 Campbell just been in surgery? 18 A. I'd have to -- I don't recall, since it's been 19 such a long period of time, if he had been or was going to 20 surgery at that point in time. I'm sure that he had already 21 been into some type of surgical procedure because that's the 22 normal procedure when they first come in with a gunshot wound. 23 So I'm sure there had been some type of surgical procedure. I 24 don't know if he had any additional one after that or not. 25 Q. Do you recall whether or not he had been 206 1 administered any anesthesia in that surgical procedure? 2 A. I did not ask. 3 Q. And how long it had been since anything of that 4 nature? 5 A. I did not ask and did not know. 6 Q. How about Mr. Hoffmann? He was in surgical 7 intensive care unit, also, wasn't he? 8 A. Yes, sir; he was. 9 Q. And he was not able to give you a full 10 interview, was he not? No. I take that back. You say you 11 concluded your interview with Mr. Hoffmann and thanked him for 12 his cooperation. 13 A. Right. They were all able to give me the full 14 interview and they were able to answer and articulate the 15 questions. 16 Q. Except for Mr. Scherer, you had to conclude your 17 interview with Mr. Scherer? 18 A. Yes, sir. He became very upset; yes, sir. 19 Q. All right. There have been a number of guns 20 pictured in these exhibits? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. And there have been a number of guns pictured in 23 these exhibits, these posters; right? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. But the accurate listing of the number and 207 1 amount of guns is listed on this exhibit that we've 2 introduced, 477; right, sir? 3 A. Yes, sir. That's the stuff that Cheryl Jackman 4 -- Detective Cheryl Jackman had exhibited that was there. 5 Q. And so even though we may have 18 pictures of 6 AK-47s, there was only one AK-47; isn't that right? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. And even though we may have several pictures 9 where a Smith & Wesson .38 revolver is depicted, there was 10 only one Smith & Wesson revolver? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. There was one Sig Sauer? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. Right? The only two weapons -- the only group 15 of two weapons were the Mac-11s; correct? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. But Exhibit 477 is the list of the weapons? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. And the ammunition? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. Which was a formidable amount -- 22 A. Yes, sir; it was. 23 Q. -- of ammunition and formidable amount of 24 weapons; correct, sir? 25 A. Yes, sir. 208 1 Q. But there weren't numerous AK-47s? 2 A. No, sir. Just one. 3 Q. Lieutenant, this elevator where Mr. Stein was 4 shot -- 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. -- is it -- did you test it -- is it your 7 understanding that Mr. Wesbecker reopened that elevator as it 8 came shut? What is your understanding or what did your 9 investigation reveal as to the mechanics of why the elevator 10 was shutting and why it came back up as Mr. Stein was shot? 11 A. Because Mr. Stein went over and pushed the 12 button as it was closing. It's just like any other elevator, 13 when you close it and you want to get it back open, you press 14 a button and apparently it causes some electronics in there to 15 open it back up. 16 Q. Did you ever get in the elevator and push the 17 button and then let go? 18 A. Yes, sir; we did that. 19 Q. And did that stop the action of the elevator 20 doors closing and cause them to open? 21 A. No, not to my recollection it did not. 22 Q. Are you sure about that, because Mr. Conrad and 23 some of the other fellows that worked with this elevator on a 24 regular basis have indicated that the reason the elevator 25 stopped -- 209 1 MR. STOPHER: Objection. That's not in this 2 record, Your Honor. 3 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 4 MR. STOPHER: There's been no such testimony 5 like this in this record. No one's testified about the way 6 this elevator operated. 7 MR. SMITH: It's not a major point. 8 JUDGE POTTER: I mean, if he wants to recall him 9 and put it in on rebuttal he can, but let him go ahead and ask 10 the question. 11 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 12 Q. It's not a major point. I'm just wondering if 13 you came to a definite conclusion that -- exactly how the 14 elevator worked is somebody would have to push the button from 15 the outside to make it open back up, or that it could have 16 been that Mr. Wesbecker let go of the button from the inside 17 before the shooting of Mr. Stein. 18 A. I wish I could answer that. I can't really 19 recall, to be quite honest with you. 20 Q. You just don't know one way or the other? 21 A. I don't really know; no, sir. 22 Q. Okay. And, again, it's not a major point. This 23 door here that separates the reception room from this hall 24 that you would be right here? 25 A. Yes, sir. 210 1 Q. Now, in the video that door was closed and you 2 opened it; correct? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. But at the time that the shooting actually 5 occurred, did your investigation reveal that the door was in 6 fact propped open when Mr. Wesbecker came through? 7 A. Our investigation revealed that he closed the 8 door at one point. Now, whether the door was open or not, I 9 don't recall. I can look at -- I think I took an interview 10 from Angela Bowman; if you give me a second I can look at that 11 to see. I do remember -- let me look at the interview. 12 Q. Again, this may not be a major point, other than 13 you didn't mean to imply by virtue that you opened the door on 14 the video that that door was -- that you were sure that door 15 was closed when Mr. Wesbecker entered the premises that 16 morning? 17 A. From what I can indicate from what -- the 18 interview I took from Angela Bowman was that the door 19 apparently was open and that he actually closed it after he 20 had shot them. He came back in and closed it back behind him. 21 Q. So it was probably open when he came off the 22 elevator? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. And before he shot Ms. Needy and Angela Bowman? 25 A. Before he shot Ms. Needy and Ms. Bowman. It 211 1 indicates from -- the interview I did with her was that he 2 came back, got his bag, looked down, and then he closed the 3 door, pulled the door shut. 4 Q. Okay. Any shots discharged in Mike Shea's 5 office? 6 A. No, sir. And there's no indication that he went 7 in there. Our interview didn't reveal that anybody saw him go 8 in there and there's no indication that he went in there and 9 there's no shots fired. 10 Q. And he didn't discharge any, and you didn't find 11 any evidence of gunfire within Mr. Shea's office? 12 A. That's correct; we did not. 13 Q. There was in the conference room or was it not 14 in the conference room? 15 A. There was a casing, which indicated that he 16 fired from the doorway there, and the casing would have 17 ejected out the right-hand port of the gun and went into 18 there, but there's no indication that he ever shot. That 19 would have meant he would have been shooting down the hallway. 20 Q. Right. That's what I was going to say. That 21 would have indicated he was shooting down the hall, and we 22 know that he shot Ms. Warman as she was down here toward the 23 end of the hall. 24 A. Yes, sir. According to her statement; yes, sir. 25 Q. And there weren't any bullet holes or anything 212 1 in the conference room to indicate that a gun was discharged 2 here? 3 A. No, sir; there were not. 4 Q. Or nor was there any in this kind of kitchen 5 alcove here between Mr. Shea's office and the conference room; 6 right? 7 A. That's correct. There was not. 8 Q. There was a bullet discharged into -- was it the 9 second conference room or Mr. McCall's office? 10 A. It was a conference room that was formerly 11 Mr. McCall's office. 12 Q. This room? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. All right. Did your investigation indicate 15 anybody that saw Mr. Wesbecker in the foremen's office that 16 morning? 17 A. You mean, beforehand or are you talking about 18 that incident when the incident occurred? 19 Q. Yeah. We know that the foremen's office and the 20 break room are adjacent, are they not? 21 A. Yes, sir; they are. 22 Q. You testified that you found a magazine and we 23 saw photographs of a magazine that was empty that was laying 24 in the floor of the supervisor's office; right? 25 A. Yes, sir; there was. 213 1 Q. But did your investigation indicate anybody that 2 actually saw Mr. Wesbecker go into the supervisor's office? 3 A. Not that I can recall. I was thinking that 4 Mr. Hoffmann may have, but I don't see that indicated here. 5 Just the only fact that there was an empty magazine found in 6 there, which would indicate that he would have changed 7 magazines in that area. There was talk by several people that 8 after he entered the door the first time, he actually entered 9 it again a second time. There was an elapsed period there. 10 Q. There was an elapsed period of time where he 11 apparently did leave the break room and change magazines and 12 then reenter the break room. But the question is whether or 13 not he went into the supervisor's office at that time or at an 14 earlier time. The only evidence you found, as I understand 15 it, was the magazine on the floor of the supervisor's office? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. There wasn't any discharge of any weapon within 18 the supervisor's office? 19 A. That is correct. 20 Q. You didn't see any bullet holes or anything 21 within the supervisor's office? 22 A. Yes, sir. That's correct. 23 Q. So it's reasonable to conclude that 24 Mr. Wesbecker didn't shoot inside the supervisor's office? 25 A. That's correct. 214 1 Q. The only question then is whether he was in 2 there at all. We know he didn't shoot anybody in there and 3 didn't discharge the weapon in there; right? 4 A. Yes, sir. The only indication we have he may 5 have been in is because the magazine was found in there. 6 Q. All right. Do you remember in interviewing 7 Mr. Hoffmann that Mr. Hoffmann said that he was shot inside 8 the break room and crawled out the break room after 9 Mr. Wesbecker had committed suicide? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. And that he had -- and that would cause him to 12 crawl right by Mr. Wesbecker's body, wouldn't it? 13 A. Yes, sir; it would have. 14 Q. And it could very well -- and the photograph -- 15 maybe we can get it -- the photograph of the magazine in the 16 supervisor's office, can you find that? 17 A. I'll try to, sir. (Reviews photographs) Yes, 18 sir. I have it. It's 124. 19 Q. Okay, 124? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. Yeah. It looks like that that magazine is by a 22 desk. 23 A. Yes, sir; it is. 24 Q. And then we've got another picture of a desk 25 with a phone on it. 215 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. And you said that was the phone Mr. Hoffmann 3 called his fiancee at? 4 A. That's what Mr. Hoffmann told me, yes, sir, or 5 tried to call. 6 Q. All right. Would it be possible, Lieutenant, 7 that Mr. Hoffmann just, as he was crawling in there, maybe 8 kicked or pulled that magazine into there and it just happened 9 to be laying there, because it's in such close proximity to 10 where the phone call was being made? 11 A. That's always a possibility. I can't exclude 12 that. There was no blood found on it, is the only thing I can 13 say that may indicate that was not the case, that Mr. Hoffmann 14 was bleeding. 15 Q. It looks like there's a lot of blood there 16 underneath it. 17 A. I can't tell from this photograph. 18 Q. Two fifty-six? 19 A. Yeah. That's what I'm looking at. I can't tell 20 what's blood and what's not in that photograph, though. 21 Q. Do you see all of this discoloration here? 22 A. Yeah. I see that. I don't know what -- I can't 23 tell from this copy if that's what that is, though. 24 Q. Were you there -- 25 A. Yes, I was. 216 1 Q. -- on the scene that morning? 2 A. Yes, I was. 3 Q. And were there still victims there that morning? 4 A. Yes, there was. 5 Q. Lieutenant, I hate to ask you to come back in 6 the morning, but... 7 It is five, Your Honor. I think it will take me 8 a while to finish. 9 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. 10 Ladies and gentlemen, we'll take the evening 11 recess. As I've mentioned to you-all before, do not permit 12 anybody to speak to or communicate with you on any topic 13 connected with this trial; do not discuss it among yourselves 14 or form or express opinions. We'll stand in recess till 9:00. 15 (PROCEEDINGS TERMINATED THIS DATE AT 5:05 P.M.) 16 * * * 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 217 1 STATE OF KENTUCKY )( )( Sct. 2 COUNTY OF JEFFERSON )( 3 I, JULIA K. McBRIDE, Notary Public, State of 4 Kentucky at Large, hereby certify that the foregoing 5 Transcript of the Proceedings was taken at the time and place 6 stated in the caption; that the appearances were as set forth 7 in the caption; that prior to giving testimony the witnesses 8 were first duly sworn; that said testimony was taken down by 9 me in stenographic notes and thereafter reduced under my 10 supervision to the foregoing typewritten pages and that said 11 typewritten transcript is a true, accurate and complete record 12 of my stenographic notes so taken. 13 I further certify that I am not related by blood 14 or marriage to any of the parties hereto and that I have no 15 interest in the outcome of captioned case. 16 My commission as Notary Public expires 17 December 21, 1996. 18 Given under my hand this the__________day of 19 ______________________, 1994, at Louisville, Kentucky. 20 21 22 23 24 _____________________________ 25 NOTARY PUBLIC 218 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25