1396 1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 2 FOR THE DISTRICT OF HAWAII 3 4 SUSAN K. FORSYTH, ) Civil No. 95-00185ACK Individually and as ) 5 Personal Representative ) Pages 1,396 - 1,584 of the Estates of June M. ) 6 Forsyth and William D. ) Forsyth, and WILLIAM F. ) 7 FORSYTH, JR., ) ) 8 Plaintiffs, ) ) 9 vs. ) ) 10 ELI LILLY AND COMPANY, ) an Indiana corporation, ) 11 et al., ) ) 12 Defendants. ) __________________________) 13 14 TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS 15 The above-entitled matter came on for trial on 16 Wednesday, March 17, 1999 at 9:20 a.m. at Honolulu, 17 Hawaii. 18 BEFORE: THE HONORABLE ALAN C. KAY 19 United States District Judge District of Hawaii 20 21 REPORTED BY: TINA M. STUHR, RPR, CSR #360 Notary Public, State of Hawaii 22 PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. 23 733 Bishop Street Suite 2090, Makai Tower 24 Honolulu, Hawaii 96813 (808) 524-PRSU 25 PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1397 1 APPEARANCES: 2 For Plaintiffs: ANTHONY ANDERSON VICKERY, ESQ. Archer, Waldner & Vickery 3 2929 Allen Parkway Suite 2410 4 Houston, Texas 77019 5 KAREN BARTH, ESQ. Baum, Hedlund, Aristei, Guilford 6 & Downey 12100 Wilshire Boulevard 7 Suite 950 Los Angeles, California 90025 8 ROY K.S. CHANG, ESQ. 9 Shim & Chang 333 Queen Street 10 Suite 900 Honolulu, Hawaii 96813 11 For Defendant: ANDREW SEE, ESQ. 12 MICHELLE R. MANGRUM, ESQ. Shook, Hardy & Bacon L.L.P. 13 One Kansas City Place 1200 Main Street 14 Kansas City, Missouri 64105 15 EDMUND BURKE, ESQ. Burke Sakai McPheeters Bordner 16 Iwanaga & Estes 737 Bishop Street 17 Suite 3100 - Mauka Tower Honolulu, Hawaii 96813 18 Also Present: Catherine Itai 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1398 1 I N D E X 2 WITNESS ON BEHALF OF PLAINTIFFS PAGE 3 RONALD SHLENSKY, M.D. 4 Cross-Examination Continued by Mr. See 1399 Redirect Examination by Mr. Vickery 1425 5 THOMAS F. BRADY, Ph.D. 6 Direct Examination by Mr. Vickery 1440 7 Cross-Examination by Mr. See 1464 Redirect Examination by Mr. Vickery 1501 8 KAREN FORSYTH 9 Direct Examination by Mr. Chang 1506 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. Burke 1523 11 SUSAN FORSYTH 12 Direct Examination by Mr. Vickery 1537 Cross-Examination by Mr. See 1563 13 Redirect Examination by Mr. Vickery 1581 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1399 1 THE CLERK: Civil No. 95-00185ACK, Susan K. 2 Forsyth, et al. versus Eli Lilly and Company, et al. 3 MR. VICKERY: Good morning, Your Honor. Andy 4 Vickery and Karen Barth for the Forsyths. 5 THE COURT: Good morning. 6 MR. SEE: Good morning, Your Honor. Andy See 7 with Michelle Mangrum and Ed Burke for Eli Lilly and 8 Company. 9 THE COURT: Good morning. Good morning, ladies 10 and gentlemen of the jury. Please proceed. 11 MR. SEE: Thank you, Your Honor. 12 CROSS-EXAMINATION (Continued) 13 BY MR. SEE: 14 Q. Dr. Shlensky, good morning. 15 A. Good morning. I fell into a psychological trap 16 yesterday, and I should apologize to you. I felt 17 criticized and I acted critical, which is a natural 18 human tendency, so I apologize if I was critical of 19 you. 20 Q. You don't have to apologize to me. That's not 21 why we're here. I do have just a few more things for 22 you this morning. Hopefully, it will not take too 23 long. 24 Again, asking you about the conclusions that 25 you've drawn after your review of the materials PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1400 1 provided to you about Bill and June Forsyth. The 2 first thing I want to ask is with respect to the 3 aspect of religion and the life of the Forsyth family, 4 from your review of the materials about this case, you 5 have concluded that, in fact, June Forsyth had put 6 some pressure on her husband Bill to become more 7 involved in the church; isn't that right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And you also concluded, I think, that Bill 10 Forsyth was resistant to that pressure; isn't that 11 right? 12 A. Well, he ultimately did proceed to get more 13 involved. 14 Q. I understand, but I'm asking you, isn't it 15 correct and did you not conclude that in response to 16 the pressure from his wife June to be more involved in 17 the church, Bill Forsyth's reaction was to resist it; 18 isn't that right? 19 A. I felt that was the case, and I think that, 20 again, is human nature operating there. Generally, 21 pressure is met with resistance within, so it's not 22 the best technique to get somebody to go along with 23 the plan, is to pressure them. 24 Q. And you would also agree that there were times 25 in the Forsyth marriage that this pressure and PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1401 1 resistance to pressure, with respect to how involved 2 in religion the family would be, that at times, in the 3 marriage, it was a source of significant conflict? 4 A. Well, there was conflict, but it also is an 5 indication of intense involvement with each other. 6 Q. Would you mind turning to Volume III of your 7 deposition? 8 A. Sure. 9 Q. And I'll ask you to look specifically at 10 Page 515. I think it's the thin one. 11 A. Is it here? 12 Q. Is there a thin one underneath the stack? 13 A. Oh, there it is, I'm sorry. What page? 14 Q. 515. 15 MR. VICKERY: 515? 16 MR. SEE: Yes, sir. 17 Q. And starting at Line 25, I want to ask if you 18 were asked this question and gave this answer: 19 "QUESTION: Would you agree that Mrs. Forsyth's 20 approach and practices that made up her religious life 21 constituted a significant conflict in the marriage 22 between Mrs. Forsyth and Mr. Forsyth? 23 "ANSWER: Well, I would say that varied from 24 time to time. 25 "QUESTION: So are you saying that sometimes PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1402 1 that was a significant conflict and then sometimes it 2 was not? 3 "ANSWER: Yes." 4 Did you give those answers? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. So we can agree, then, that your view is that 7 there were times when this conflict was a significant 8 issue in their marriage? 9 A. Yes. I think that's a fair statement. 10 Q. Now, as I understand it, you also were provided 11 and reviewed the records relating to June Forsyth's 12 own psychiatric treatment; isn't that right? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. And you would agree, would you not, that if one 15 spouse in a marriage has a psychiatric illness or a 16 significant emotional problem, it can affect the 17 emotional state or psychiatric state of the other 18 spouse? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Now, we've heard testimony about the fact that 21 there was a request, perhaps, by Mr. Forsyth on 22 February 24th to go to the hospital. You're familiar 23 with that? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Now, isn't it correct that Mr. Forsyth called PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1403 1 one of his doctors two days earlier; that is, on 2 February 22nd, before he ever took Prozac, and told 3 his doctor that he thought he needed to be in the 4 hospital? Isn't that right? 5 A. Well, it sounds right. I must say I haven't 6 necessarily committed these various events to memory. 7 I don't think I want to be a source of information 8 about that because it's not really within the scope of 9 my expertise. It's more of a fact issue. 10 Q. Okay. The reason I'm asking you that goes to 11 your opinion that Prozac caused what it has alleged to 12 cause in this case, so I'm just asking you, did you 13 take into account in forming your opinion that Bill 14 Forsyth, before he ever took Prozac, on February 22nd 15 of 1993, that Bill Forsyth called one of his doctors 16 and said I think I need to be in the hospital? 17 A. Now, I remember more about that. I believe at 18 that time, my understanding was that he was scared of 19 being hooked on Xanax because he had a history 26 20 years ago of having had, at least as he perceived it, 21 a problem with alcohol and he was worried. He had 22 been told or somehow he came to believe that Xanax, 23 this Valium-like agent, could cause him to become 24 dependent on it or addicted, and I think that's why 25 he -- that was my understanding of why he wanted to go PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1404 1 in the hospital because he was worried about being 2 addicted and he wanted to get off of that drug. 3 Q. So we can understand your testimony then, you 4 now have a recollection that, in fact, Bill Forsyth 5 called one of his doctors on February 22nd, before he 6 ever took Prozac, and said he thought he needed to be 7 in the hospital? That's one of the facts that you -- 8 A. That's my best recollection, yeah. 9 Q. I'm sorry? 10 A. That's my best recollection. 11 Q. As I understand it, you have no criticism of 12 the treatment that Dr. Roberts provided Mr. Forsyth? 13 A. Well, it's always easy to find problems, 14 especially in circumstances like this where the 15 outcome was so bad and, you know, so I have certain 16 problems, but it's easy in retrospect to find fault 17 with somebody when you're not there. 18 Q. Would you turn to your deposition at Page 172? 19 A. Okay. I have to remind you, though, with 20 regard to my deposition, that that deposition was 21 given in 1997. It was before I ever sat here in the 22 courtroom and listened to Dr. Roberts. So I can't 23 distill that out of my mind, so to speak, so I have 24 new information. 25 Q. If you wouldn't mind just looking at your PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1405 1 deposition. 2 A. Let's see. Which volume is that? 3 Q. It's the first volume, Page 172. 4 A. Okay. 5 Q. I'm going to direct you to Line 18, and ask if 6 you got this question and gave this answer at the time 7 I took your deposition in this case. 8 "QUESTION: Do you have any criticism of 9 Dr. Roberts' care of Mr. Forsyth? 10 "ANSWER: Is that Riggs Roberts? 11 "QUESTION: Yes, sir. 12 "ANSWER: Do I have the right guy? 13 "QUESTION: You do. 14 "ANSWER: At the moment, I don't have any 15 criticisms of his treatment." 16 Did you give that answer? 17 A. Well, the problem with his treatment is -- one 18 of the problems -- 19 Q. I'm sorry, Dr. Shlensky. Right now, the only 20 question before you is, at the time that I took your 21 deposition in this case, when I was asking you about 22 your opinions that you had already arrived at, that 23 you had written a report about, that had been produced 24 to me, and when I had a chance to ask you about what 25 your opinions were and what you were going to testify PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1406 1 about in this case, did you give the answer that we 2 just read in your deposition? 3 MR. VICKERY: Excuse me, Mr. See, and, Doctor, 4 before he answers. Your Honor, I would like, for 5 fairness, for Mr. See to read the very next question 6 and answer at the top of Page 173 before the doctor is 7 asked to answer that question. He's taking the 8 statement out of context, Your Honor. 9 MR. SEE: Your Honor, I object to counsel's 10 comment. If there's a question about what ought or 11 ought not be read in fairness, that's one thing. 12 Q. Dr. Shlensky, would you turn over to Page 173. 13 Let's accommodate Mr. Vickery and read -- and I'll 14 read to you and ask if you got a question and gave an 15 answer, starting at Line 1. 16 "QUESTION: Do you have information about what 17 Dr. Roberts knew or didn't know about Prozac at the 18 time he prescribed it for Mr. Forsyth? 19 "ANSWER: No." 20 Now, the same question is still pending, 21 Dr. Shlensky. The questions and answers that were 22 just read to you from your deposition in this case, 23 did you give the answers at that time? 24 A. You know, I can't -- my problem is that -- 25 THE COURT: Just answer yes or no. PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1407 1 THE WITNESS: Oh, okay. Well, it really would 2 create a misleading impression if I answered yes or 3 no. 4 Q (By Mr. See) So you're not going to follow 5 the Judge's instruction? 6 A. Well, I don't want to get into trouble, but I'm 7 just trying to give the best information. 8 THE COURT: Was that your answer at the time of 9 your deposition or not? 10 THE WITNESS: Oh, yes, it was. 11 Q (By Mr. See) Okay. Thank you, sir. Now, the 12 next question, Dr. Shlensky, is this: Isn't it also 13 true that you have no criticism of Dr. Neal's 14 treatment of Mr. Forsyth during the time he was a 15 patient at Castle Medical Center? 16 A. Well, it's not true. 17 Q. Could I refer you, please, to your deposition 18 at Page 172. It's the same Volume I. Are you there, 19 sir? I'm going to start at Line 6. 20 A. Which page? 21 Q. 172. 22 A. 172? 23 Q. Yes. 24 "QUESTION: And my question is, do you have any 25 criticism of Dr. Neal's treatment of Mr. Forsyth PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1408 1 during the time that he was in Castle Hospital? 2 "ANSWER: I'm just -- at the moment, I'm taking 3 my time because I'm thinking over what Dr. Neal did 4 and so on and so forth. I just want to give you 5 careful answers to the questions. Well, at the 6 moment, I can't identify any criticisms of the care he 7 provided." 8 Did you give that answer, sir? 9 MR. VICKERY: Excuse me, Mr. See. Out of 10 fairness, Your Honor, we have the same question with 11 respect to Dr. Neal we did about Dr. Roberts on the 12 next page, 173 beginning on Line 5. 13 Q (By Mr. See) All right. Dr. Shlensky, turn 14 over to Page 173 and let's read the question 15 Mr. Vickery wants read. That starts at Line 5. And 16 the question was: "Do you have any information about 17 what Dr. Neal knew or didn't know about Prozac at the 18 time he prescribed for Mr. Forsyth? 19 "ANSWER: I would not want to represent myself 20 as being knowledgeable about what those people knew 21 about Prozac at this time." 22 Now, Dr. Shlensky, the pending question is, did 23 you give those answers at the time of your deposition? 24 A. The answer is yes, I gave those answers, but 25 they need to be interpreted at this time. PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1409 1 Q. Yes, sir. Now, you wrote a report in this 2 case, which was provided to me, that sets forth the 3 opinions that you had formed and were intending to 4 testify about, correct? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And in your report, you wrote and do you 7 have -- 8 MR. VICKERY: I have it right here. What page? 9 MR. SEE: It's the third page, and I'm going to 10 ask him about paragraphs numbered three and four. 11 Q. And you wrote, "The patient was ultimately put 12 on Prozac and, shortly thereafter, briefly 13 hospitalized. He was appropriately worried about 14 being on such medication, but was reassured by his 15 doctors." Do you recall writing that? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Now, your reference to Mr. Forsyth being 18 worried about being on such medication, you intended 19 that that refer to Prozac; isn't that right? 20 A. I believe so. 21 Q. But isn't it the fact, Dr. Shlensky, that the 22 medication that Mr. Forsyth was worried about was 23 Xanax, that he was worried about being addicted to 24 Xanax; isn't that right? 25 A. Well, that's partially right, but I think, in PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1410 1 general, he was a person who did not like the idea of 2 taking medications, and I can't tell you specifically 3 why I have this impression, but I think that somehow 4 he was fearful of Prozac, not only by its specific 5 identification. And I think there had been a lot 6 of -- some stuff in the newspaper -- 7 Q. Dr. Shlensky, I have to ask you to stop right 8 there. 9 A. Okay. 10 Q. The next question I have is this: You have 11 carefully reviewed the records regarding Mr. Forsyth's 12 hospitalization at Castle Medical Center? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Isn't it correct that during the time 15 Mr. Forsyth was a patient at Castle Medical Center, he 16 showed a good response to Prozac and, in fact, began 17 to gradually improve his depression? Isn't that true? 18 A. I don't believe that that's accurate, no. 19 Q. All right. I'm going to write down, "At 20 Castle, did not show good response to Prozac." That 21 would be consistent with your view, right? 22 A. I think that's -- yes, that's more consistent 23 than he did. 24 Q. And your view is also that at the time 25 Mr. Forsyth was at Castle, his depression did not PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1411 1 gradually begin to improve, correct? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Now, let me ask you just a couple of questions 4 about your opinion on causation. As I understand it 5 from your testimony, it is your opinion that Prozac 6 caused Mr. Forsyth to become agitated, right? 7 A. That's true. 8 Q. And it's also your opinion that Prozac caused 9 Mr. Forsyth to develop akathisia? 10 A. Some elements of that condition. 11 Q. Now, you also have the view, isn't it right, 12 that during the time Mr. Forsyth was taking Prozac, he 13 developed behaviors; pacing, foot tapping, 14 handwriting? Is that correct? 15 A. No, I don't think that's correct. Those are 16 words I used to describe some features of akathisia, 17 but not necessarily all such features are present in 18 each person that develops the condition. 19 Q. All right. Would you mind turning to Volume 20 III of your deposition at Page 527. 21 THE COURT: I'm sorry, what page? 22 MR. SEE: 527, Your Honor. 23 Q. I'm going to start on that page at Line 23 and 24 ask if you were asked this question and gave this 25 answer: PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1412 1 "QUESTION: Based upon your review of the 2 materials provided to you, did Mr. Forsyth, at any 3 time he was taking Prozac, engage in pacing or foot 4 tapping or hand wringing? 5 "ANSWER: That's my impression. 6 "QUESTION: That he did? 7 "ANSWER: Yeah." 8 Did you give those answers? 9 A. Well, I think the next answer I gave is also 10 meaningful. 11 Q. I understand that, Dr. Shlensky. 12 A. In relating to what you're asking, that's part 13 of my answer. 14 MR. SEE: Your Honor, may I just ask that the 15 Court direct the witness to answer the question? 16 THE COURT: Just answer the question -- 17 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 18 THE COURT: -- Dr. Shlensky. 19 THE WITNESS: Okay. 20 Q (By Mr. See) The only question was, Doctor, 21 did you give that answer? 22 A. I did give that answer. 23 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, it is -- let me make a 24 note of that. 25 A. I gave that answer, but it was in the context PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1413 1 of other information. 2 Q. All right, sir. Now I'm going to ask you about 3 that. I'm going to ask you this: Isn't it correct 4 that there is not a single note in the Castle Medical 5 records to the effect that Mr. Forsyth engaged in 6 pacing or foot tapping or hand wringing; isn't that 7 right? No note of those things? 8 A. I think that's correct, yes. 9 Q. Now, with respect to Mr. Forsyth and 10 akathisia -- 11 A. That doesn't mean that it didn't happen. 12 Q. Now, with respect to Mr. Forsyth and akathisia, 13 isn't it correct there's not a single note or entry in 14 any of the Castle Medical Center records that says 15 that Mr. Forsyth had, was observed to have, was 16 diagnosed as having akathisia; isn't that right? 17 A. Well, it's not right in the full meaning of the 18 matter. I mean, I don't think they identified it as 19 akathisia. 20 Q. The word akathisia does not appear in the 21 Castle Medical Records, does it, in relation to Bill 22 Forsyth? 23 A. I don't think it does. I mean, that's my 24 impression. 25 Q. Would you agree to this, Dr. Shlensky, during PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1414 1 any time that Bill Forsyth ever took Prozac, he did 2 not have any sign of involuntary movement? 3 A. No, I don't agree with that. 4 Q. Would you turn to Page 527 of your deposition. 5 That would be in Volume III. I'm going to ask you 6 about Line 13. 7 A. Oh, Volume III? 8 Q. Yes, sir. Starting at Line 13, I'm going to 9 ask if you got these questions and gave these answers. 10 MR. VICKERY: Excuse me, Mr. See. Your Honor, 11 this is not impeachment. It's improper use of a 12 deposition, but I don't mind it as long as he reads it 13 in context. Line 2 is where this colloquy starts. 14 Q (By Mr. See) Dr. Shlensky? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. Look up the page there to Line 2. 17 A. I'm not sure we have the same lineage here. 18 Q. My question is: At the time of your deposition 19 in this case, did you get these questions and give 20 these answers: 21 "QUESTION: Was there any time when Mr. Forsyth 22 was taking Prozac that he showed signs of involuntary 23 movement? 24 "ANSWER: Not that I know of unless you call 25 agitation involuntary movement. I mean, I don't have PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1415 1 a -- I don't think I have a -- I don't -- I don't 2 have -- I am not willing to, on the basis of physical 3 descriptions of, or I don't have sufficient 4 information about physical observations of him that I 5 can say that he was experiencing involuntary movements 6 or that he wasn't. 7 "QUESTION: Well, from anything that you've 8 seen, is there any sign, any evidence, that he was, in 9 fact, experiencing involuntary movement during any 10 time he was taking Prozac? 11 "ANSWER: No." And then you go on, "Well, I 12 don't think anybody reported that." 13 Did you give those answers? 14 A. I'm sure I did. What page are you on? 15 Q. It was at 527. 16 A. Oh, I see. Well, I certainly gave those 17 answers, but -- 18 Q. All right, sir. 19 A. -- they're not really reflecting my current 20 understanding of what transpired. 21 Q. Now, a couple of questions about the disease -- 22 the mental disease of major depression. You would 23 agree that as a part of the disease of major 24 depression, patients can perform acts or exhibit 25 behavior that is outside of their normal personality? PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1416 1 You agree with that? 2 A. Well, it's a very complicated question. I 3 could probably talk about that answer for a long time. 4 I'd say in the -- 5 Q. Maybe I can help, Doctor. You can say I agree 6 with it, I don't agree with it, or you can say I'm 7 unable to answer it because it's a complex question. 8 Any of those answers are permissible. 9 A. All right. Well, what I would say is that I 10 would like to explain why I'm having difficulty 11 answering it. Because it involves what the definition 12 of personality is and things of that nature. 13 Q. Would you turn to your deposition, please, at 14 Page 507. That would be in Volume III. 15 A. Okay. 16 Q. And I want to ask you about Line 18. 17 MR. VICKERY: Excuse me, Mr. See, 507? 18 MR. SEE: Yes, sir. 19 THE WITNESS: Oh, that's different. 20 Q (By Mr. See) Were you asked this question and 21 did you give this answer: 22 "QUESTION: Would you agree that an individual 23 suffering from major depression, as a part of that 24 disease, can perform acts or exhibit behavior that is 25 out of his normal character? PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1417 1 "ANSWER: Yes." 2 Did you give that answer? 3 MR. VICKERY: Well, wait a minute. That's not 4 the entire answer, Mr. See. 5 THE COURT: Pardon me? 6 MR. VICKERY: Your Honor, that's not the entire 7 answer. The answer continues on Line 25. Out of 8 fairness, I would ask that he just read the entire 9 answer. 10 Q (By Mr. See) All right. Look down at Line 11 25, Dr. Shlensky. 12 A. Okay. 13 Q. Are you there? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. "But I -- I do have to add this, but -- and 16 that is that with scrutiny, one would see some 17 congruence ordinarily or find some explanation in the 18 person's history, background, psychodynamics, 19 congenital makeup and so on. In other words -- well, 20 that's sufficient. Enough said." 21 Did you give those answers at your deposition? 22 A. You know, I have to point out that when you 23 first asked me this question, you used the word 24 personality, and then when you read it, you used the 25 character, and they're different things. PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1418 1 Q. All right. If I made an error in that respect, 2 I'll correct it. Do you agree, Dr. Shlensky, that in 3 a person who has major depression, as a part of the 4 disease, the person can perform acts or exhibit 5 behavior that is outside of his normal character? Do 6 you agree with that? 7 A. Yes, I would agree with that. If you don't 8 mind my adding, the concept of character -- 9 THE COURT: Well, you don't have a question 10 before you at this point. 11 THE WITNESS: Okay. 12 Q (By Mr. See) Now, again, patients with major 13 depression. Would you agree with this concept: In 14 people who have the disease of major depression, 15 sometimes a patient can begin to look better; that is, 16 improving conditions, but that, in fact, can be a 17 danger sign because it can signify that that person 18 has decided to commit suicide? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And that is a recognized concept in psychiatry, 21 isn't it? 22 A. Yes. But not murder. 23 Q. Sorry? 24 A. But not murder. 25 Q. I'll ask you about that in a second. Now, PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1419 1 isn't it also a recognized concept in the field of 2 psychiatry, that in patients with major depression who 3 become suicidal, sometimes those people kill other 4 people along with themselves? 5 A. Do you mind repeating the question? I want to 6 be very careful of my answer. 7 Q. Sure. Do you also agree that it is a 8 recognized concept in the field of psychiatry that in 9 patients with major depression who become suicidal, 10 sometimes those patients will kill other people along 11 with themselves? 12 A. Well, again, it's a complicated question. This 13 happens -- it is recognized, and it is -- I remember 14 one patient of mine that killed his dog, for example, 15 because he didn't want the dog to be abandoned. It's 16 a terrible mentality, however this is done -- this 17 concept that we're discussing is the concept of 18 sparing others' suffering as a result of my death, for 19 example -- 20 Q. All I'm asking you, Doctor, at this point -- 21 A. Yeah. 22 Q. -- is that is a recognized concept in 23 psychiatry, and I think you agreed with that, right? 24 A. Well, I agreed with it, but it doesn't fit in 25 this instance. PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1420 1 Q. Okay. Again, considering a patient with major 2 depression, if some event or some other person puts 3 pressure on a person who is depressed to do something 4 that the patient may not want to do, that can have the 5 effect of worsening the patient's depression? 6 MR. VICKERY: Objection. That question assumes 7 facts not in evidence. There's no evidence of any 8 pressure in February or March of 1993, Your Honor. 9 THE COURT: Overruled. 10 THE WITNESS: Let's see if I'm answering the 11 right question here. In general, I don't tell my 12 patients to do things because I don't want -- I know 13 that they might not do it, and then they might feel 14 bad that they didn't follow instructions, so I don't 15 like to pressure them. 16 Q (By Mr. See) That's exactly what I want to 17 ask you about. 18 A. Yeah. 19 Q. Isn't it the case that that concept, recognized 20 concept, is that if pressure is put on a depressed 21 person to do something, the depressed person can feel 22 guilty because they're unable to do it, they're unable 23 to satisfy whoever it is that is asking them to do it; 24 isn't that right? 25 A. Well, it always happens. Every family thinks, PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1421 1 gee, if you would just go to the movies or if you'd 2 just go out, it's just a natural part of the healing 3 attempts on the part of the family, and I try to teach 4 them, you know, don't pressure the person because they 5 might not do it and then they feel bad. So it's a 6 recognized thing, sure. 7 Q. Now, let me ask you this question: I want to 8 ask you about the period of time immediately following 9 the release of a patient from a psychiatric hospital, 10 okay? That's the time frame I want to ask you about, 11 the time period that follows the release. And the 12 question I have for you about that is this: Isn't it 13 correct that in a patient with major depression, and 14 that patient has been in an inpatient program in a 15 psychiatric hospital, that if that patient is 16 prematurely released; that is, released before, maybe, 17 they should be, that in that situation, isn't it 18 correct that the period immediately following the 19 release is, for that patient, a high risk for suicide? 20 A. Especially if they're on a drug that's making 21 them worse, that's true. 22 THE COURT: Especially what? 23 THE WITNESS: If they're on a drug that's 24 making them worse. 25 MR. SEE: Your Honor, I ask that the Court PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1422 1 strike the witness' answer, and direct the witness to 2 answer the question. 3 THE COURT: The answer will be stricken and, 4 Dr. Shlensky, you are directed to answer the question. 5 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 6 Q (By Mr. See) Do you have it mind? I can ask 7 it again. 8 A. About a high risk period. 9 Q. Isn't it correct -- just set aside drugs for a 10 second for this question. 11 A. Okay. 12 Q. Isn't it correct that if a person with major 13 depression is in a psychiatric hospital, inpatient, 14 and that person is prematurely released, isn't it 15 right that this time period immediately following the 16 release is, for that patient, a high risk for suicide? 17 A. Actually, I haven't looked at the statistics on 18 that recently, but it makes sense to me. 19 I apologize for elaborating, but a doctor in 20 this situation -- I understand it from both the 21 doctor's standpoint and a lawyer's standpoint. A 22 doctor in this situation feels pretty bridled when he 23 can't answer questions completely. So I apologize for 24 deviating. I apologize to you, sir. I'll be careful 25 about it. PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1423 1 Q. If you answered my question, I didn't catch it, 2 Dr. Shlensky. 3 A. Well, I haven't looked at the statistics -- 4 Q. The question is, for that patient, isn't the 5 period immediately following the release a high risk 6 for suicide? 7 A. Well, I haven't checked out the statistics on 8 that, so I don't want to -- it seems logical, but I 9 don't want to be definitive about it. 10 Q. All right. Let me refer you to Page 534 of 11 your deposition. That's in Volume III, specifically 12 at Line 4. Were you asked this question and did you 13 give this answer: 14 "QUESTION: Is the period immediately following 15 discharge from a mental hospital a period of high risk 16 for suicidality in patients with major depression who 17 had been discharged from the hospital after an 18 inpatient treatment? 19 "ANSWER: I would say if they haven't had 20 proper care or if they're discharged prematurely, that 21 would be the case. If they've had successful 22 treatment, then that wouldn't be the case." 23 Did you give that answer? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Now, again, talking about patients with major PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1424 1 depression, you would agree that if a person has major 2 depression and they also have anxiety, that increases 3 the risk of suicide in that person, correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And is it also correct that if a patient with 6 major depression also has panic attacks, that 7 increases the risk of suicide in that person? 8 A. I've seen such statements in the literature and 9 they make sense. Anything that aggravates the 10 condition, makes it worse, increases the risk. 11 Q. Dr. Healy gave some testimony earlier about 12 case reports. The question I want to ask you about 13 case reports is this: Would you agree that case 14 reports are not controlled data? 15 A. Yes. It can become controlled data. 16 Q. Now, you agree that there are, in history, 17 unfortunately, depressed patients sometimes become 18 suicidal and sometimes actually commit suicide, right? 19 A. That's true. 20 Q. You also agree that people with major 21 depression, even if they're receiving treatment with 22 antidepressant medications, can become suicidal and 23 commit suicide, right? 24 A. That's true. 25 Q. But you also agree that that does not PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1425 1 necessarily mean that the antidepressant medication 2 the patient was taking caused the suicide, right? 3 A. Well, each situation is different, but in 4 general, that doesn't mean that. It can mean it, but 5 it doesn't mean it necessarily. 6 MR. SEE: Thank you, sir. I'll pass the 7 witness. 8 MR. VICKERY: May I proceed, Your Honor? 9 THE COURT: You may. 10 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 11 BY MR. VICKERY: 12 Q. Dr. Shlensky, Mr. See read three paragraphs 13 from your report today, Paragraphs 3, 4, and 5, I want 14 to read -- I'm sorry, he read Paragraphs 3 and 4, and 15 I want to read 5, 6, 7, and 8 and ask you if these 16 were the opinions that you had at the time of the 17 report and are these still your opinions. 18 MR. SEE: I object to the hearsay, Your Honor. 19 THE COURT: Hearsay? Overruled. 20 MR. SEE: The report is not in evidence, Your 21 Honor. 22 THE COURT: Well, he can ask him whether that's 23 his opinion. 24 MR. VICKERY: Thank you, Your Honor. 25 Q. Number five, "The records convey the sense that PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1426 1 he was seeking and expecting relief and was frightened 2 by his distress and the feeling of loss of his usual 3 coping strategies. 4 "Though he reported feeling better and seemed 5 better to his family, almost immediately on starting 6 Prozac, within a few days he described complaints 7 typical of patients not tolerating Prozac well, 8 feeling strange and fearful. His family recognized 9 his emotional change for the worse reflected in his 10 appearance and emotional tone and was worried about 11 him. In other words, the signs of a reaction to the 12 medication were apparent to others. 13 "Approximately ten days after starting Prozac, 14 he killed his wife and himself. The killing of the 15 wife was unusually violent. Given no history of a 16 sensilla or predisposition of such behavior, the 17 typical Prozac reaction complaints, and the precise 18 time concordance, this is clearly a psychotic and 19 agitated response to Prozac with sudden onset and 20 savage results." 21 Were those your opinions in May of 1997? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Are they your opinions today? 24 A. Absolutely. 25 Q. Now, I want to ask you about this pacing PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1427 1 business, okay. Mr. See read to you two segments from 2 your deposition and I want us to look at the third one 3 that follows it. If you'll turn to Page 528 in Volume 4 III. 5 A. 528? 6 Q. That's the thin volume. 7 A. Okay. 8 Q. You got it? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. Now, Mr. See read to you from 527 and from the 11 top of 528. I'm going to just simply read the 12 question that you were asked then, beginning at 528, 13 Line 9, and I'm going to ask you to read the response 14 you gave to Mr. See at that time as printed in the 15 deposition. 16 MR. SEE: Your Honor, I object to Mr. Vickery 17 reading the deposition while the witness is here to 18 testify. It's not impeachment. It's hearsay. 19 THE COURT: Well, I surprised that this wasn't 20 brought up as a matter of completeness at the time 21 that the other questions were read. 22 MR. VICKERY: Your Honor, there were a couple 23 of instances where that wasn't done. The rule, Rule 24 106, I think is clear that there are certain matters 25 that are complete, and I'm given the option either of PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1428 1 insisting that he offer it at that time or 2 subsequently offering such additional portions of the 3 writings as are appropriate. 4 THE COURT: Well, in any event, I will allow it 5 at this time for completeness. 6 MR. VICKERY: Thank you, Your Honor. 7 Q (By Mr. Vickery) Starting at Line 7, I'm 8 sorry, on 528. "When did that happen, please?" 9 A. You want me to read the answer? 10 Q. Just read the answer. Don't do anything, but 11 read the answer. 12 A. Oh, I see. You want -- 13 THE COURT: You go ahead and read the whole 14 thing, Mr. Vickery. 15 MR. VICKERY: Okay. I will, Your Honor. 16 Q. Your answer, "Well, my -- the picture I have of 17 him is that he was very restless in the hospital and 18 that that was part of the reason he was discharged 19 because he wanted to get out of there. 20 "QUESTION: And as part of that restlessness 21 you say you have seen, there was a report of him 22 pacing or hand wringing or foot tapping? 23 "ANSWER: Well, I don't know whether those 24 specific words were used. 25 "QUESTION: That's what I'm asking you about. PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1429 1 Is there any evidence that you know about that 2 Mr. Forsyth was engaged in activities of pacing or 3 hand wringing or foot tapping while he was taking 4 Prozac? 5 "ANSWER: The best answer I can give you is 6 that as an experienced psychiatrist, who's taken care 7 of so many patients in that circumstance, when I 8 picture what was going on at the hospital, that's the 9 way I picture Mr. -- based on what I read in the 10 hospital record and my experience, that's the way I 11 picture Mr. Forsyth at that time. I don't picture a 12 calm, thoughtful, relaxed person. I picture somebody 13 who was miserable, and part of misery in such patients 14 is a certain degree of agitation sometimes, and in 15 this case, it was substantial as far as I could 16 determine." 17 Were those your answers to the questions about 18 akathisia in your deposition? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Thank you. 21 A. Actually, I got choked up in the middle of my 22 answer, I was going to add -- 23 THE COURT: Well, there's no question before 24 you at this point. 25 Q (By Mr. Vickery) Dr. Shlensky, you guys as PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1430 1 psychiatrists are trained, when people ask you a 2 question, to answer with a question, aren't you? 3 A. Well, there's a reason for that, too. 4 Q. I understand that. And I know it's tough for 5 you to change gears in court here, but please just try 6 to listen and answer my questions, okay? 7 A. Okay. 8 Q. That's the rules we have to play by. 9 Now, I want to ask you about this question 10 about premature release. Premature release. 11 MR. VICKERY: And to do that, Ms. Barth, can we 12 have the television? 13 Q. I want to look at a draft warning that Eli 14 Lilly prepared and thought about giving to physicians, 15 but didn't, okay? It's Exhibit No. 5. 16 MR. SEE: Your Honor, before that comes up, can 17 I approach side bar? I have an objection to it. 18 THE COURT: Very well. 19 (Whereupon, the following proceedings were had 20 at side bar out of the hearing of the jury.) 21 MR. SEE: My objection is, any question going 22 to the warnings is beyond the scope of 23 cross-examination. I did not ask Dr. Shlensky any 24 question about the opinions of adequacy of warnings, 25 what should or should not be warned about. That was PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1431 1 not a part of any cross-examination, so Mr. Vickery is 2 beyond the scope and trying to get into new areas for 3 the witness. 4 MR. VICKERY: Your Honor, I'm not doing that at 5 all. He asked him about a premature release from the 6 hospital, okay? And this warning would have cautioned 7 this doctor against a premature release from the 8 hospital, so it is a direct response to what Mr. See 9 raised on cross-examination. 10 MR. SEE: No questions about warnings. 11 THE COURT: I'm going to preclude it because it 12 does go beyond the scope and it is sheer speculation. 13 You should have asked that question to Dr. Neal. This 14 doctor doesn't know what Dr. Neal would have done. 15 (Whereupon, the following proceedings were had 16 in open court in the presence of the jury.) 17 THE COURT: Please proceed, Mr. Vickery. 18 MR. VICKERY: Thank you, Your Honor. 19 Q. Do you believe that Dr. Neal did prematurely 20 release Bill Forsyth from the hospital? 21 A. He obviously did. 22 Q. And do you know whether or not he -- 23 MR. SEE: I beg your pardon. I honestly didn't 24 hear Dr. Shlensky's answer. 25 THE WITNESS: He obviously did. PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1432 1 THE COURT: He obviously what? 2 THE WITNESS: Did. 3 Q (By Mr. Vickery) And were you here for his 4 testimony on Friday? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And did you hear his response to the final 7 question I asked him, would he have heeded a warning 8 from Eli Lilly? 9 MR. SEE: Objection. Beyond the scope, Your 10 Honor. 11 THE COURT: Sustained. 12 Q (By Mr. Vickery) Considering all that 13 Dr. Neal knew, are you critical of him for prematurely 14 releasing Mr. Forsyth or critical of someone else? 15 A. Well, I believe that he was not -- 16 MR. SEE: Your Honor -- 17 THE WITNESS: -- well informed. 18 MR. SEE: The witness is now testifying on 19 matters that are beyond the scope. 20 THE COURT: Sustained. 21 Q (By Mr. Vickery) Okay. Let's go on to 22 something else. Let's talk about this religious 23 pressure for a minute. Are you aware of any evidence, 24 anywhere, any document, any testimony to indicate that 25 Mrs. Forsyth directly or indirectly placed any PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1433 1 religious pressure on Bill Forsyth after, listen 2 carefully, after his conversion experience of 3 January 26, 1993? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Now, Mr. See asked you yesterday about the FDA. 6 You remember he showed you a big blowup of what the 7 FDA did in response to a petition of some 8 scientologists to ban Prozac? Remember that? 9 A. Yes, indeed. 10 Q. As part of your opinion in this case, did you 11 consider the documents, that the jury will have 12 available to them, that showed the nature of the 13 relationship between Lilly and the FDA? 14 MR. SEE: Objection, Your Honor. It's beyond 15 the scope of the report. 16 THE COURT: Sustained. 17 MR. VICKERY: Your Honor, it's not beyond the 18 scope of the report. His report specifically 19 chronicles these documents and Mr. See asked him -- 20 MR. SEE: Your Honor, may I just ask that we 21 approach at side bar? 22 THE COURT: Let's have it at side bar. 23 (Whereupon, the following proceedings were had 24 at side bar out of the hearing of the jury.) 25 MR. VICKERY: Judge, I can't try my case if I PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1434 1 can't respond to the things that Mr. See raises in my 2 cross-examination. That's the whole purpose of 3 redirect. He put up this big blowup yesterday about 4 what the FDA did or did not do, and this man said in 5 his report that he considered these documents and you 6 know -- 7 THE COURT: What are you referring to? What 8 went up yesterday about the FDA? 9 MR. VICKERY: Mr. See put up a big blowup. I 10 think it was Exhibit 1167. A big blowup of an FDA 11 talk paper where they denied a scientology petition, 12 and he asked this witness about it. 13 MR. SEE: I asked Dr. Shlensky if he was aware 14 that the FDA had considered this evidence in case 15 reports and so on, and he said he wasn't sure. And I 16 showed him the blowup that the FDA has considered this 17 and determined there is no connection between Prozac 18 and suicide. It went to causation. 19 MR. VICKERY: And that's what I want to respond 20 to. 21 THE COURT: What is it that you want to respond 22 to? 23 MR. VICKERY: What I want to respond to is the 24 reasons why he said that he doesn't put credence in 25 what the FDA said. The fact that the documents PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1435 1 reflect a very cozy relationship between Lilly and the 2 FDA; that those documents were part of his opinion 3 from the get-go that were listed in his report; that 4 he was questioned about in his deposition, and I 5 simply can't respond to Mr. See's cross-examination 6 with redirect if the Court ties my hands behind my 7 back. 8 MR. SEE: I'll specifically respond to that, 9 Your Honor. Number one, it is most certainly not in 10 the report, and in the second place, I'll find the 11 deposition references if Your Honor would like to see 12 them, but I will tell you that I asked Dr. Shlensky 13 about the internal workings of the FDA. Well, his 14 response was, I don't know. I asked him what do you 15 know about the regulations of the warnings? He said, 16 I don't know. 17 THE COURT: I do recall that. 18 MR. SEE: And there's no FDA information that 19 I'm going to talk about that the FDA did or didn't do 20 or anything like that in this report. He says he's 21 going to talk about warnings and causation. 22 THE COURT: Can you point out anything about 23 the FDA in his report? 24 MR. VICKERY: No, sir. She was just showing it 25 to me. I can't. I know that we have provided some PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1436 1 documents to him, but what I'm saying to the Court is 2 I think it's unfair for Mr. See to expand the scope of 3 inquiry with his cross-examination, and then for the 4 Court to preclude me with the redirect from addressing 5 those very matters that Mr. See has chosen to cross 6 him on. 7 That's the real gist of my impatience. I'm 8 sure the Court can see I'm a little impatient about 9 it, and I apologize for that, Judge. When Mr. See 10 expands into other areas with cross-examination and 11 the Court says, oh, Mr. Vickery, you can't do that, 12 then it really ties my hands behind my back. 13 MR. SEE: The question was with respect to 14 causation, and I think he can ask whatever causation 15 question. Now he's not asking about a causation 16 question. 17 THE COURT: You can question him on causation 18 with respect to the FDA. 19 MR. VICKERY: Okay. I'll do that. 20 (Whereupon, the following proceedings were had 21 in open court in the presence of the jury.) 22 Q (By Mr. Vickery) Dr. Shlensky, you were asked 23 yesterday about a determination that the FDA had made 24 in response to a citizen petition, okay? Do you put 25 any credence in what the FDA said back in 1991 about PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1437 1 the causation of whether this drug causes suicide or 2 violence? 3 A. Well, it's a problem for me because the FDA, 4 like the IRS, is dependent on information -- 5 MR. SEE: Your Honor, it goes to the topic we 6 were just talking about at side bar. 7 THE COURT: Overruled. 8 Q (By Mr. Vickery) You can continue. 9 A. The FDA does not do studies itself ordinarily. 10 They rely upon information provided to -- for 11 instance, with regard to Prozac, the FDA has to rely 12 on information from the people that are manufacturing 13 the drug and who are trying to determine the 14 effectiveness and dangers of the drug, and so they get 15 their information from Eli Lilly. And I have good 16 reason to believe that some of the information 17 provided to them is not accurate, so I don't -- 18 MR. SEE: I object. 19 THE COURT: Sustained. 20 MR. SEE: I object. It calls for speculation. 21 I ask that the Court strike that part of the witness' 22 answer. 23 THE COURT: That part of the answer will be 24 stricken. 25 Q (By Mr. Vickery) One more question. Another PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1438 1 deposition issue. Look with me, if you would, to 2 Page 67. 3 A. Page 67. Okay. 4 Q. Bear with me just a minute, Dr. Shlensky, while 5 you're getting that page. You see where Mr. See has 6 written here under Dr. Shlensky, "Nihilism, 7 pessimistic view," that was based on him asking you a 8 question on Page 67, and I want to -- I want you to 9 look at the sequence immediately following that 10 question on Line 18, and I will just, as the Court 11 instructed before, read the colloquy. You said to 12 him -- 13 MR. SEE: Your Honor, if I may. I object to 14 the hearsay reading of the witness' deposition. He's 15 here to testify in person. It's improper impeachment. 16 It's improper rehabilitation. 17 MR. VICKERY: It was improper impeachment when 18 Mr. See tried to do it because his answer was 19 consistent, Your Honor. 20 THE COURT: Well, just a minute. That doesn't 21 seem to go to the rule of completeness, Mr. Vickery, 22 so proceed as normal rather than reading the 23 deposition. 24 Q (By Mr. Vickery) Okay. Did you correct what 25 you told Mr. See and tell him that this man wasn't PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1439 1 really nihilistic? Do you believe that this man was 2 nihilistic before he was on Prozac? 3 A. Well, actually nihilism is simply a point of 4 view of a depressed person. So if he -- you know, 5 there's reason to believe that he was put on Prozac 6 because he was depressed. 7 Q. Okay. 8 A. So it's an outlook on things, really. 9 Q. So anybody, I guess, that's depressed is 10 probably nihilistic? 11 A. Well, if you have a substantial depression, 12 then you're -- one of the things that's affected by it 13 is your point of view. 14 MR. VICKERY: Very well. Thank you, sir. 15 MR. SEE: Nothing further, Your Honor. Thank 16 you, Dr. Shlensky. 17 THE COURT: Thank you. You're excused. Next 18 witness. 19 MR. VICKERY: Yes. We call Dr. Tom Brady. 20 THE CLERK: Please raise your right hand. 21 THOMAS F. BRADY, Ph.D., 22 called as a witness on behalf of the Plaintiffs, after 23 having been first duly sworn to tell the truth, the 24 whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was examined 25 and testified as follows: PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1440 1 THE CLERK: Please be seated. Please state 2 your name and spell your last name. 3 THE WITNESS: My name is Thomas F. Brady, 4 B-R-A-D-Y. 5 DIRECT EXAMINATION 6 BY MR. VICKERY: 7 Q. Good morning, Dr. Brady. 8 A. Good morning. 9 Q. Thank you for waiting patiently to get here. 10 Tell us where you live, sir. 11 A. I live in Dana Point, California. 12 Q. How long have you lived in California? 13 A. A total of 27 years. 14 Q. Now, when I summoned you to the stand, I said 15 we call a fellow named Dr. Tom Brady. Do you hold a 16 doctorate degree? 17 A. Yes, I do. 18 Q. In what field? 19 A. In psychology. 20 Q. Where did you get that education? 21 A. From Arizona State University. 22 Q. Are you what is called a clinical psychologist? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And can you explain for these folks what a 25 clinical psychologist does? PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1441 1 A. Yes. Well, a clinical psychologist works in a 2 variety of areas. They work in areas of counseling 3 and psychotherapy. They also do pain management and a 4 number of other specialties that have arisen within 5 clinical psychology itself, including forensic 6 psychology. 7 Q. Are you now retired? 8 A. I am retired, yes. 9 Q. In the nineties -- let's just take the early 10 nineties, until the time that you retired, what was 11 the nature of your clinical practice? 12 A. Primarily I did individual psychotherapy and 13 marriage and family therapy. 14 Q. And how long did you do that, say, before the 15 nineties? Give us a feel for your practice. 16 A. I worked -- initially, my first position was as 17 a professor at the University of South Dakota, and 18 then I went to Viola University in Southern California 19 and began a private practice in 1971. 20 Q. Okay, sir. So from 1971 until '92, when you 21 saw Bill and June Forsyth, was the nature of your 22 clinical practice what you described to us? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Did you meet the Forsyths in a social context 25 before you met them in a professional context? PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1442 1 A. Yes, I did. 2 Q. Tell us about the background of that. How did 3 it happen? 4 A. Well, we had a mutual friend by the name of 5 Bobbie Comstock, actually, her husband, Jim and Bobbie 6 Comstock, on Maui. The Comstocks and I, we often 7 traded our cabin and the condominium that they had -- 8 as a matter of fact, when I first met them I was 9 staying at the Comstock's condominium in 19 -- in June 10 of '92. And I need to -- 11 Q. You're here on a swap, staying in the 12 Comstocks' condo, right? 13 A. That's right. 14 Q. Were the Comstocks there? 15 A. The Comstocks were not there at that time, and 16 one of the things that they suggested to me was that I 17 might want to get to know the Forsyths, and 18 subsequently, I did meet Bill and June Forsyth. 19 Q. All right, sir. Now, that's June of '92, and 20 we all know by now that sometime the next month, Bill 21 left suddenly and went to California? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Now, when he was there, after he had been there 24 a while, did he contact you in a professional 25 capacity? PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1443 1 A. Yes, he did. 2 Q. Tell us approximately when that happened. 3 A. That would have been the second week in 4 September that he called to make an appointment. 5 Q. What did he tell you? Why did he need your 6 services? 7 A. Well, initially he didn't tell me anything. He 8 just said he wanted to come in and see me, and on that 9 first contact, he called and cancelled that 10 appointment, but then when he came in, he told me that 11 he had left Maui and he had left his wife June at that 12 time. 13 Q. And when was the date of that first visit? 14 A. September 19th. 15 Q. Okay, sir. And what was his goals that he was 16 telling you that he wanted to do? I mean, why did he 17 need the services of someone like you? 18 A. Well, he was in the process of trying to decide 19 whether or not to get a divorce, and also, he wanted 20 to make some plans for his future at that time and 21 just to have someone to discuss these issues with. 22 Q. Did you and he have, what folks in your field 23 call, a good therapeutic relationship? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And tell us what that means, to have a good PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1444 1 therapeutic relationship. 2 A. I think initially, Bill, because of the strong 3 feelings that he had and some of the experiences that 4 he was having, really wanted to talk about the issues, 5 and I think that our relationship, which had begun on 6 Maui, I had had dinner with him that one evening, was 7 such that he was comfortable with me and I certainly 8 was comfortable with him. 9 Q. Did you all meet in a fairly intense manner 10 starting on September 19th and continuing for some 11 weeks thereafter? 12 A. Yes. Bill wanted to work as much as he could 13 in a short period of time, so I would meet with him 14 for a double session once or twice a week. 15 Q. So what's a typical session? 16 A. A typical session for me would be 50 minutes to 17 an hour, and so we would meet for an hour and a half 18 to two hours. 19 Q. Twice a week? 20 A. Twice a week. 21 Q. In a typical setting, does one merely come in 22 once a week for the 50 minutes? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. So he's like getting four times the normal dose 25 of therapy? PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1445 1 A. That's true. 2 Q. And tell us, if you would -- I'm not going to 3 go through each entry. Mr. See can do that if he 4 wants to, but tell us about the progress from mid 5 September to late October when you were just dealing 6 with Bill. 7 A. Initially Bill had a lot to say about the 8 relationship between him and June, and he began to 9 relax as we continued our work. He was able to tell 10 me about the history, about his feelings, and 11 ultimately, got into the sense that he wondered if 12 maybe it would be possible for us to work with June as 13 well if she were willing to come over to California. 14 Q. Was he that initiated that notion or you? 15 A. It was he. 16 Q. Okay. Now, were there some things that -- 17 before he got to that point, okay, were there some 18 anger and resentment that he wanted to get off his 19 chest with you? 20 A. Well, yes. Initially, he talked to me about 21 the concerns that he had in his relationship with 22 June, and it was five years previous that some things 23 had happened between the two of them, and really this 24 was the basis of a lot of unresolved conflict that the 25 two of them had. He talked about -- PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1446 1 Q. Let me stop you there a minute, Dr. Brady. In 2 those five years since this had happened -- and let's 3 put it in context. Is the thing that started that 4 five-year period, her coming to him with kind of a 5 list of grievances, if you will? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And in the five years since that had happened, 8 had they ever worked together, with someone like you, 9 to try to work through those issues? 10 A. I believe that they may have. He did talk 11 about having had some previous counseling, and just 12 what the nature of that was, I don't know. 13 Q. Okay. Now, tell us, if you will, what were 14 some of these issues that he wanted to address? 15 A. Okay. Well, the primary thrust of what he 16 wanted to talk about was the experience that he had 17 five years previous to coming in, and this is what he 18 called his catalog of grievances or his catalog of 19 complaints. And, basically, what had happened during 20 that time between June and Bill is that June came to 21 him and began to talk about all of the concerns that 22 she'd had that dated all the way back to the beginning 23 of their marriage, and Bill said he was overwhelmed by 24 some of these things. 25 She was concerned about communications, she was PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1447 1 concerned that she didn't get enough attention from 2 Bill, that he wasn't there for her, these kinds of 3 things, and Bill, for his part, was, I think a word he 4 used, he was devastated. He thought that his marriage 5 was fine. He thought that everything was good. He 6 had looked upon his marriage as being as healthy as it 7 could be. 8 Q. Let me stop you and ask you something there. 9 Did the catalog of grievances include anything about 10 religious issues? 11 A. Not at that time at all. No, not five years 12 previous. 13 Q. Okay, sir. Did you help him with a better -- 14 achieve a better understanding himself of the catalog 15 of grievances, how his wife was feeling, and how he 16 could respond to that in a positive and constructive 17 way? 18 A. Well, I think I tried to let him know that when 19 we would have the opportunity to speak with June, and 20 he had begun to talk about that by that time, that 21 there could be a process of communication where we 22 would be able to work on those things, yes. 23 Q. Okay, sir. Now, do you recall when it was that 24 he initiated the idea of asking June over to join you 25 in joint sessions? PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1448 1 A. If I'm not mistaken, it was somewhere in the 2 middle of October. 3 Q. Can you tell us a precise date by your records 4 or get us as close to it as you can? 5 A. The date that comes to mind is about 6 October 19th, somewhere in there. 7 Q. Okay, sir. And when does June show up for her 8 first visit? 9 A. That was on October the 29th of '92. 10 Q. Okay. These dates are kind of important, so 11 I'm going to write them up here. What was the first 12 date that he visited you? September what? 13 A. September 19th. I'm sorry, September 18th. 14 Q. Eighteenth. 15 THE COURT: Well, while you're writing, let's 16 take a 15-minute break. Please be back at five to 17 eleven. 18 (Whereupon, a recess was taken at 10:35 a.m.) 19 THE COURT: Please proceed, Mr. Vickery. 20 MR. VICKERY: Thank you, Your Honor. 21 Q. Dr. Brady, I have listed some dates here over 22 the course of the break, not that anyone can read my 23 writing, but 10/19, I believe you told us right before 24 the break, was when Bill suggested that you all invite 25 June to come join? PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1449 1 A. It would be somewhere in that time frame, yes. 2 Q. Now, other evidence that has already been 3 discussed establishes that on October the 23rd, four 4 days later, that Bill got a prescription from 5 Dr. Hawley, his family doctor there, for Xanax. Did 6 you suggest that he go get a prescription for Xanax? 7 A. No. That was something that he did on his own. 8 Q. Did he share with you that he had, indeed, 9 gotten a prescription for anxiety medicine? 10 A. Yes, he did. 11 Q. And was there anything surprising to you, given 12 where you were in the process, having been through the 13 intense periods for, I guess, a little over a month 14 then, and having his wife come join him, is there 15 anything surprising about him being a little anxious 16 about that? 17 A. No, not at all. He was anxious at that point 18 for the opportunity to talk to June, but also very 19 concerned about the confrontation style that he might 20 have had with her. 21 Q. Okay. What happened when she first got there? 22 Was everything lovey-dovey, hunky-dory, or was there 23 some conflict that you had to work with? 24 A. There was definitely conflict. They would 25 space themselves from one another, distance themselves PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1450 1 from one another in the offices, and as we proceeded, 2 that began to change. 3 Q. Was there anything about their body language, 4 other than the distance between them, that told you, 5 as a trained therapist, what feelings you had to deal 6 with on behalf of both of these spouses? 7 A. Well, June was more open, but Bill, you know, 8 would distance himself and have his arms in front of 9 him to keep the distance. 10 Q. Okay. Now, did you continue to see them on the 11 same kind of a schedule, double sessions twice a week 12 for the next few weeks? 13 A. Well, there were a variety of things that 14 happened during that period of time. One of the 15 things that I did was I spent some time with June 16 alone, just as I had done with Bill, so that she would 17 have an opportunity to get to know me on that basis, 18 because here I had been working with Bill intensely 19 for over a month, and she didn't know who I was other 20 than that initial meeting that we had, and there would 21 certainly be the expectation that anyone would have in 22 those circumstances, that Bill and I would have a 23 relationship and that she might be the odd man out. 24 So I spent some time with her individually, 25 getting to know her, getting to know what her concerns PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1451 1 were, getting to know a little bit about her history, 2 her family growing up, her family of origin, and 3 establishing a relationship, basically, with June and 4 she very quickly warmed up to the situation, was very 5 happy to be able to be there and to have this 6 opportunity to work things through with Bill. 7 Q. Okay, sir. Did you do that before you had any 8 joint sessions or after the first joint session or how 9 did that -- 10 A. Before. 11 Q. Before? 12 A. Before. And Bill was very comfortable with 13 that. 14 Q. And approximately how many sessions did you 15 have with June getting to know her and establishing a 16 therapeutic relationship before you got together 17 jointly? 18 A. Well, once again, intensely, probably just the 19 week. That would have been two -- four total sessions 20 if you count the double sessions. 21 Q. Okay, sir. Then how did the joint therapy 22 progress? Can you just give us, if you will, your 23 recollection of the progression of that therapy? 24 A. Well, I mentioned to you that there were the 25 catalog of complaints that Bill had, and one of the PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1452 1 things that I said to both of them is that whatever 2 was discussed with us individually would become grist 3 for the mill of the conjoint therapy, but that's 4 something that I say to people, but I don't always 5 hold them to that, but in Bill's case and in June's 6 case, everything that they discussed with me, they 7 openly brought to the conjoint sessions, which was a 8 very positive sign. 9 Q. Let me make sure we understand that. Stuff 10 that each of them had shared with you in private -- 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. -- they then shared jointly with all of you 13 there? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. Did you deem that to be a healthy sign? 16 A. Yes, it was a very healthy sign. 17 Q. Why? 18 A. Well, because, generally speaking, people have 19 a tendency to be more candid, more direct in 20 individual sessions with what their concerns are, and 21 when they meet with their spouse, they're a little 22 more careful, they're a little more circumspect in the 23 way they share things, but in Bill's case, that wasn't 24 the case at all and neither was it in June's. 25 Q. Okay, sir. What kind of issues did you work PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1453 1 on? Let's talk about the catalog of complaints first. 2 What were the catalog of complaints? 3 A. Well, Bill was not very articulate about that. 4 He just would talk about the fact that there were all 5 of these things that she brought up for all of the 6 years previous to that to the time that they had this 7 confrontation; that, basically, she wasn't there for 8 him, he had spent all of his time building up the 9 business and these sorts of things, and he had thought 10 that that was okay with her. She had been supportive. 11 Their emotional life, he thought was okay. Their 12 sexual life was okay, but from her perspective, there 13 were lots and lots of things that she felt Bill missed 14 on, and so she had shared those with him. 15 In the process of therapy, he was able to share 16 what some of those feelings were, and they talked 17 about it and June asked for his forgiveness on the 18 basis of having dropped all of that on him at that one 19 time. She realized that what she should have done 20 was, during those previous years, she should have 21 brought those to him as they were happening, so she 22 recognized her responsibility in that to him. And for 23 his part, he talked about the fact that he had 24 withdrawn and he had pulled away after that 25 confrontation, and he had asked her forgiveness for PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1454 1 that as well. 2 And so, basically, they worked through the 3 issues and got some closure on that five-year period 4 of events. 5 Q. Dr. Brady, in those sessions, either individual 6 sessions or joint sessions, was there ever a hint, 7 even a hint, of any concern or problem about domestic 8 violence from either of them? 9 A. No. None at all. 10 Q. Is that something that you, as a therapist, are 11 trained to look for? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Is that something that, indeed, you are 14 empowered by the State of California to look for in 15 individuals, whether they're a danger to themselves or 16 others? 17 A. Yes. I didn't mention to you, but the position 18 that I hold in the State of California is that of a 19 certification review officer, which is to be in the 20 decision point when someone has been hospitalized by 21 the State or by the police or what have you, on a 22 72-hour hold involuntarily. 23 After 72 hours, in the State of California, 24 it's mandated that there is a hearing to see if the 25 person needs to continue for an additional 14 days, PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1455 1 and I was a hearing officer for those kinds of 2 hearings. And people are continued to be held on the 3 basis of great disability, danger to others, or danger 4 to self, and these were decisions that I helped make. 5 Q. How many years had you been making those kinds 6 of certifications before you began to treat Bill and 7 June Forsyth? 8 A. Approximately 15 years. 9 Q. Okay. Now, Dr. Brady, we have heard lots and 10 lots in this trial about religion and religious 11 differences between Bill and June. Would you just 12 give us your impression of where each of them were at 13 the start of the process and where they were at the 14 end of the process on that topic? 15 A. When I started to tell you about my treatment 16 with the Forsyths, I mentioned this catalog of 17 complaints. The second area had to do with the 18 religious life that the family had, and Bill had some 19 concerns about the fact that June spent so much time 20 in Christian work and endeavors. June had a women's 21 Bible study, I believe, in her home. She attended 22 church regularly. Bill attended church with her much 23 of that time, but he was concerned that she would talk 24 about these issues, about Christian issues and 25 Christian life issues with him so much, that she spent PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1456 1 so much time reading these materials and issues 2 related to that. 3 Q. Did he ever express any resentment for his 4 wife's faith? I mean, did he ever want her to change 5 being who she was or what faith she had? 6 A. That was not the impression I got. As a matter 7 of fact, towards the end of our work, he made it very 8 clear that he did not want to change her spiritual 9 walk in any manner at all. He just didn't want it to 10 be the total center of her life and their life 11 together. 12 Q. Was there ever any indication that either she 13 felt that she wanted to change him or that he felt 14 pressured by her that, you know, like she was 15 arm-twisting him into making some religious decision 16 that he didn't want to make? 17 A. I don't know that he talked about it that 18 directly. There might have been a sense that he had 19 that that's what she would wish for him; that somehow 20 through her talking about these issues and about 21 having the literature available for him to see or the 22 tapes for him to hear, that he might come to a 23 position closer to hers. 24 Q. Okay. Did you -- in that context, did you see 25 him respond in anger towards her concern for his PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1457 1 religious walk? 2 A. For his religious walk? 3 Q. Yes. I mean, was it like, dang-gummit, Bill, I 4 want you to have a better relationship with God? 5 Anything like that? 6 A. No. I didn't get any indication like that from 7 her or from him. 8 Q. Where were they at the end of the therapeutic 9 sessions? I believe December 4th was your last one, 10 right? 11 A. On this issue? 12 Q. Yes, sir. Where were they on this issue at the 13 end of the process? 14 A. June was perfectly willing to make a change in 15 churches. Because one of the issues had to do with 16 the pastor of that church, that Bill did not like him 17 and didn't like his style, and so he didn't want to 18 continue at that church, and June, at that time, was 19 in agreement. She had had some concerns about the 20 pastor as well, so it was not a major thing for her. 21 She was perfectly willing to worship at a more 22 traditional church if that's what Bill wanted to do. 23 Q. Okay, sir. Now, how about with respect to all 24 of their other issues, where were they at the end of 25 the therapeutic process on December 4th of 1992? PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1458 1 A. There was another area of concern and that had 2 to do with the relationship with their children, Bill, 3 Jr. and Susan. For Bill's part, he wanted to have a 4 better relationship with his son, and for June's part, 5 she wanted to have a better relationship with Susan. 6 And they felt like -- 7 Q. Let me stop you right there a minute, 8 Dr. Brady. Is that uncommon in your experience, that 9 the father would want a better relationship with the 10 son and the mother would want to redefine her 11 relationship with her daughter? 12 A. Well, it's not exactly gender specific like. 13 Sometimes it can be a father with a daughter as well, 14 so... But it's not unusual for parents to have 15 different issues with their children. 16 Q. Okay. I interrupted you. Tell us, if you 17 would then, how that issue was worked through and 18 where they came to on the subject of the relationship 19 with their children by December 4th. 20 A. I think that there was some tension with regard 21 to both Bill and June with how they were feeling 22 towards their children. I think Bill maybe felt 23 protective of Bill -- I'm sorry, June felt protective 24 of Bill, Jr. and his relationship to his father, 25 and -- but then at the same time, she was also PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1459 1 concerned about Susan, talking about the fact that she 2 was working hard in her position, but also had to 3 manage a lot of properties and felt like that that was 4 too much. 5 So there was some tension around some of those 6 issues, as I understood it, at that time. But they 7 had made the decision that they were not going to 8 allow that to get in the way of their happiness and 9 tensions about those kinds of issues interfere. 10 Q. Okay. How would you describe the state of 11 their marital relationship on December 4, 1992, when 12 you had your last visit with them? 13 A. Well, you know, I think it can really be summed 14 up in what began to happen in those last sessions. 15 They had made -- there was one other issue as to 16 whether or not they would stay in -- on Maui, and they 17 had talked about the possibility of moving to Palm 18 Springs. They had actually gone so far as to go to 19 Palm Springs on one of the weekends between sessions 20 to look at some property and they had come back and 21 told me that there was certainly a possibility for 22 them to move back. They had lived there before or had 23 a place in Palm Springs before. 24 What began to happen towards the end of the 25 sessions is that, rather than certainly the distance PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1460 1 that I initially saw and the body language that I saw, 2 they were sitting closer and occasionally, I think, 3 holding hands, and so their relationship was very 4 solid. 5 They had had -- at that point, they had had, I 6 use the phrase of freshening of intimacy. They had a 7 sexual life together again and were enjoying each 8 other's company. They were going to theater, a 9 variety of things. 10 Q. And making these plans for the future? 11 A. For the future. 12 Q. Okay. Dr. Brady, after December 4 of 1992, did 13 you ever have the opportunity to talk to either June 14 or Bill again? 15 A. Yes, there were two occasions. One was that 16 they had called just to let me know how things were 17 going and they both stated, I think this was in 18 January, that things were going fine and they were 19 looking forward to, perhaps, coming to have a 20 follow-up meeting with me later on in the winter. 21 Q. Okay, sir. 22 A. And then the second time -- 23 Q. What was the second one? 24 A. -- I'm not sure of the date of that, but 25 probably several weeks before -- no more than two PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1461 1 weeks before he was hospitalized, he had called asking 2 if I had any recommendations for hospitals in Southern 3 California and what would the cost be if he were to 4 come to the hospital. He was concerned about, the way 5 he expressed it to me at that time, was his Xanax 6 addiction. He viewed himself as being addicted to 7 Xanax. 8 Q. And did you give him some suggestions for 9 places in California where he could go to try to get 10 off the Xanax? 11 A. I gave -- I told him about one place that I 12 knew of at that time, and I'm not sure if -- it was 13 the Miramar Clinics, and I knew that the cost would be 14 approximately a thousand dollars a day to go into the 15 hospital and I shared that with him. 16 Q. And what was his response? 17 A. He felt that was too high. 18 Q. Okay. Let me ask you about that, Dr. Brady. 19 We've heard testimony, and it's been emphasized by 20 Lilly's counsel that he wanted to go in the hospital 21 before he ever took Prozac, and then we've also heard 22 testimony about two days after he took Prozac that he 23 insisted on going that day. 24 When he talked to you about the possibility of 25 going in the hospital to get off Xanax, was there any PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1462 1 real urgency or immediacy, like, I've got to go today, 2 you know, give me the name of a hospital, I've got to 3 get there today, any of that? 4 A. No. I didn't experience that with him at all, 5 no. 6 Q. Did he even talk to you about a time frame of 7 when he might come from Maui to the Mainland in order 8 to go into the hospital to get off Xanax? 9 A. No, he didn't. One of the things that I 10 recommended to him was that he really needed to see a 11 psychiatrist to talk about the Xanax addiction 12 because, from my perspective in looking it up in the 13 PDR and so on, although I'm not an expert at all on 14 medication, he was taking just the minimal dosage of 15 Xanax. 16 Q. Okay. Dr. Brady, would it be fair, from your 17 perspective, based on all you knew about these people, 18 for anyone to stand in this room and claim that after 19 December 4, 1992, Bill and June Forsyth had a broken 20 marriage? 21 MR. SEE: Objection. No foundation. The 22 witness has testified that he didn't see them after 23 that day. 24 MR. VICKERY: He's talked to them twice after 25 that, Your Honor. PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1463 1 THE COURT: Up to the -- well, to the extent 2 that he can answer it on the basis of his telephone 3 calls, I will allow the question. 4 THE WITNESS: Would you rephrase your question? 5 Q (By Mr. Vickery) Sure. Is there -- would it 6 be fair, based on all you know about these people, 7 including your therapeutic visits and the telephone 8 conversations you had, two of them in 1993, for 9 someone to stand in this room and say their marriage 10 was broken? 11 MR. SEE: My objection now is to the form, Your 12 Honor. It's argumentative. 13 THE COURT: Sustained. I think you better 14 rephrase that. 15 Q (By Mr. Vickery) Dr. Brady, do you believe 16 their marriage was broken on December 4th? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Do you believe their marriage was broken when 19 you talked to them on the telephone in January? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Do you believe their marriage was broken when 22 you talked to him approximately two weeks before he 23 went into the Castle Medical Center? 24 A. No. 25 MR. VICKERY: Thank you. I pass the witness. PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1464 1 THE COURT: Mr. See. 2 MR. SEE: Thank you, Your Honor. 3 CROSS-EXAMINATION 4 BY MR. SEE: 5 Q. Good morning, Dr. Brady. 6 A. Good morning. 7 Q. If you would just give me one minute, I need to 8 set this up. 9 A. Okay. 10 Q. Dr. Brady, I've got some blowups that are made 11 from some of your notes. 12 MR. SEE: If I may approach the witness, Your 13 Honor? 14 THE COURT: You may. What exhibit number? 15 MR. SEE: Dr. Brady's chart is 1008. 16 THE COURT: Thank you. 17 MR. SEE: And the small copies of the blowups 18 should be in an envelope in the back. If I may 19 approach, Your Honor? 20 THE COURT: You may. 21 Q (By Mr. See) I'll hand you small copies of 22 these blowups because the way we have to set it up 23 here, it's hard for you to see at the same time the 24 jury is. 25 And do you have your chart there in front of PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1465 1 you, sir? 2 A. I do. 3 Q. First of all, Dr. Brady, if I could just ask 4 you some preliminary questions. From the history you 5 got from Mr. Forsyth, you understood that he and his 6 wife had separated back in 1991? 7 A. That's correct. 8 Q. And then you understood they had reconciled for 9 a time? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And then you understood that they had separated 12 again in 1992? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And it was during this separation that 15 Mr. Forsyth had come to see you? 16 A. That's correct. 17 Q. I'm going to put up the first blowup which 18 corresponds to September 18 of 1992. I think you said 19 that was your first visit with Mr. Forsyth by himself, 20 correct? 21 A. That's correct. 22 Q. Now, so that we all can understand, because 23 some of us may not have been to a therapist, the way 24 the procedure goes is the person who is coming in for 25 counseling sort of tells the therapist what the PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1466 1 problem is and then there may be interviews, sort of 2 proceeding by question and answer, to get out of the 3 person, the history and if there's a relationship 4 problem, or whatever the problem is. It sort of goes 5 like that? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Now, although we didn't blow it up, there's the 8 notation "PP"? 9 A. That's correct. 10 Q. And that means what? 11 A. Presenting problem. 12 Q. So that would be the main issue that the 13 patient was coming to see you about? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. And then when you record that, that's, 16 essentially, what the patient tells you what the 17 problem is that they perceive? 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. And Mr. Forsyth did that with you and indicated 20 to you that the problem was that his relationship with 21 his wife had been deteriorating for the past five 22 years? 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. And then he gave you some general history 25 indicating that, although, it had been a long time in PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1467 1 the past, he had had a drinking problem sometime back? 2 A. That's right. 3 Q. And then also indicated to you that, as he 4 described it himself, he was a workaholic who had 5 built up a car rental company around the Los Angeles 6 airport? 7 A. That's correct. 8 Q. And again, as he described it himself, had come 9 to the realization that during that time when he was 10 working all the time, he simply had not paid enough 11 attention to his home life? 12 A. That's correct. 13 Q. Now, the next entry we have on the blowup here 14 is, "Good relationship in early years, but said I 15 wasn't meeting her needs." Now, that would be what 16 Mr. Forsyth related to you? 17 A. Yes. His perspective was that he had a good 18 relationship. His wife was working with him in all 19 the kinds of things that he wanted to do to build up 20 his business and supportive in all ways, but during 21 this -- during that confrontation, she said that she 22 wasn't meeting her needs -- she said that he was not 23 meeting her needs. 24 Q. So the first part of this sentence is really 25 Bill's perspective on what the marriage was, and he PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1468 1 thought everything was great? 2 A. That's correct. 3 Q. And learned during this emotional visit that 4 they had about the catalog of grievances, that from 5 June's point of view, the marriage was not as he 6 thought, but from her view, he was not meeting her 7 needs? 8 A. That's correct. 9 Q. So this last part would be June's perspective, 10 right? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And then he gave some further description about 13 that meeting where the catalog of grievances was 14 discussed, and that's the entries we have here? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. "Five years ago, broke down and cried. Talked 17 for two hours." And then the quotations were, Bill 18 Forsyth was telling you that June had said that he had 19 not been there for her? 20 A. That's right. 21 Q. Was that the description, as he heard it, that 22 his wife was indicating that he had not been -- had 23 not provided the emotional side of the marriage as she 24 wanted to have it? 25 A. Yes. PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1469 1 Q. And then "grievances cataloged," and that's 2 when June presented Mr. Forsyth with the issues she 3 had, sort of, saved up through this marriage and let 4 him have it? 5 A. That was the way he experienced it. 6 Q. He says, "Very emotional, couldn't believe, 7 couldn't handle it. Talked divorce and got 8 counseling." Now, when Mr. Forsyth indicated to you 9 that he couldn't handle it, was that his statement to 10 you that he simply was unable to emotionally deal with 11 that presentation of all of those conflicts all at 12 once? 13 A. I don't know. A word that he used was that he 14 was devastated when this -- when this came about 15 because he thought his marriage was fine. 16 Q. So this came as a total surprise to him? 17 A. That's right. 18 Q. And, really, the surprise aspect of it really 19 made the impact hit harder? 20 A. Well, as he said, he broke down and cried. 21 Q. Now, is it correct that Mr. Forsyth, then, also 22 told you that since this time, that their marriage had 23 begun to cool, their relationship was cool? 24 A. That's the word he used. 25 Q. Now, is it correct, from your understanding, PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1470 1 from getting this information from Mr. Forsyth, that 2 his visit to you in September of 1992, during this 3 second separation, related to the same issues that had 4 existed at the time of the catalog of grievances? 5 A. The catalog of grievances and then the fact 6 that their life, as it was currently being 7 experienced, wasn't very satisfying to him because of 8 the coolness and the coldness. 9 Q. And, in fact, Mr. Forsyth termed their 10 relationship; that is, he with his wife, "the cold 11 war"; isn't that right? 12 A. That's exactly right. 13 Q. And was an aspect of this cold war type 14 relationship that Mr. Forsyth described to you, that 15 he simply was unable to take the pressure and conflict 16 with his wife and, therefore, kind of withdrew from 17 her? 18 A. That's right. 19 Q. Now, part of the -- is it correct that part of 20 the relationship problem that Mr. Forsyth related to 21 you had to do with his wife's style; that is, how she 22 spoke and how she communicated, that sort of thing? 23 A. I'm not sure that it was how. Certainly the 24 content and some of the issues, and the how would 25 include the fact that June was a verbal lady. She was PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1471 1 able to speak about things in an articulate way, and 2 Bill didn't have the words. 3 Q. So would it be correct that, as you learned it 4 from Mr. Forsyth, one of the things that contributed 5 to his inability to handle the conflict with his wife 6 was, in fact, her verbal abilities; that is, she could 7 be a powerful talker? 8 A. Powerful in the sense that she had her -- she 9 had her ideas and the content of her ideas and wanted 10 to share that, and I think that that's what would 11 overwhelm him, that she could continue to talk and she 12 would have -- she would have a list particularly when 13 she would talk -- when she talked about the catalog of 14 grievances. 15 Q. Did one of the things that Mr. Forsyth told 16 you -- going to the subject of religion for just a 17 second. He did indicate that that was -- that that 18 was at this time and had been a source of conflict 19 between them? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And was one of his descriptions that, as he saw 22 it, that he felt June had become a sort of 23 hyper-Christian who was forcing him to respond to 24 Christ in the same way that she did? 25 A. I think that that would have been how he saw PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1472 1 that, yes. 2 Q. I was taking that off your set of notes here 3 that you made. 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And that was an accurate reflection -- 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. -- of what he related to you, correct? 8 A. I think that word hyper-Christian was mine, not 9 his. 10 Q. Okay. But the following thought, that she was 11 forcing him to respond to Christ in the same way that 12 she did, that's the way he felt about it or, at least, 13 as he described it to you? 14 A. That she would want him to have the same 15 experience -- religious experience that she had had. 16 Q. Now, I'm just looking at your notes. You did 17 use the word "forcing him to respond," and I just 18 wanted to -- 19 A. That was his experience. 20 Q. That was the concept that he related to you? 21 A. Yes, um-hum. 22 Q. In other words, that's the way he felt? 23 A. That's the way he felt. 24 Q. Let me put up the next blowup from your notes. 25 This is the one that starts up at the top, "I became PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1473 1 analytical." Do you have your smaller copy there? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Your entry, "I became analytical and critical," 4 was that -- that was Mr. Forsyth describing how he 5 treated his wife? 6 A. Yes. This was -- this would have been kind of 7 a cycle or a pattern that would happen over these five 8 years, that as these issues would come up or there 9 would become some tension in the relationship, he 10 would experience it as a confrontation, and his first 11 response to that would be to be hurt, he'd be hurt by 12 that, and then that would turn into some kind of 13 resentment or some sort of anger, and then he would 14 withdraw himself and become, as I said -- as he said, 15 what's the phrase here again? 16 Q. It was at the top here. 17 A. "I was analytical and critical," but he would 18 not express it. Most of the time, he wouldn't express 19 it. He would hold that in. 20 Q. Now, there's the entry, "Every conversation and 21 dealing became intimidating." That was what you were 22 just now referring to? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And this was Mr. Forsyth describing to you the 25 interactions he would have with his wife he viewed as PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1474 1 sources of conflict? 2 A. Yes. You know, I think on his part, that's a 3 bit of hyperbole, an overstatement. I'm sure that 4 every conversation wouldn't be that way. But when 5 they were dealing with these kinds of issues, that's 6 how it would feel to him. 7 Q. And the intimidating part, did that include the 8 concept, at least as Mr. Forsyth felt it, his wife's 9 strong verbal style? 10 A. He would be intimidated by that, yes. 11 Q. And, in fact, didn't he also tell you that he's 12 not just intimidated by his wife's communication 13 style, but it was overwhelming to him? 14 A. Yes, that was the word he used. 15 Q. Now, the entry, "Never feel support," again, 16 was that Mr. Forsyth's communication about how he felt 17 about his wife? 18 A. That's right. Compared to the early years of 19 his marriage when he felt support in any kind of 20 decision that was being made, he didn't feel that same 21 kind of support any longer. 22 Q. Now, the next entry -- and let me just ask: Is 23 this what Mr. Forsyth told you, that he felt she was 24 crude, cruel, and tactless? 25 A. Yes. Those were his words. PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1475 1 Q. And the next entry, "The same mind set applies 2 now," was that signifying that all of these issues 3 that he was speaking of, that he applied those to this 4 time when he was speaking with you? 5 A. That's almost six-and-a-half years ago, and to 6 be honest with you, I don't know if that's just a 7 little note that I wrote to myself or something that 8 he said. When I see that now, it suggests to me that 9 he could still be analytical and critical and feel 10 intimidated. 11 Q. So this entry would either be something that 12 Mr. Forsyth told you or perhaps the analysis that you 13 drew from meeting with him and getting information 14 from him? 15 A. I would definitely say that it wasn't something 16 that he would have told me. Mind set sounds like my 17 phrase. 18 Q. Now, let's go down to this entry, 19 "Competitiveness in making decisions." 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. It was the case, as Mr. Forsyth related to you, 22 that in their earlier married life, he had pretty much 23 been in control of things, he was the boss and he 24 called the shots; isn't that right? 25 A. Yes. I think that's a fair way to state it. PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1476 1 Q. And was he now telling you that was no longer 2 the case? 3 A. He was. 4 Q. That, at least from his vantage point, his wife 5 was now desiring to make decisions herself? 6 A. That she was perhaps less willing to go along 7 with what she experienced -- well, you know, right 8 now, I feel like I'm mixing up things because this was 9 before June was even on the scene and I didn't know 10 June and so I'm thinking about how June was. 11 From his perspective, yeah, it was competitive. 12 It was competitive. She didn't just go along with 13 what he said. She might say, you know, let's do it a 14 different way or whatever. 15 Q. And that to him was a change from sort of the 16 old ways that they had been relating? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And that change was one of the things he was 19 having difficulty with; isn't that right? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Now, we go down to the description, I think, of 22 their -- you may have alluded to this before, their 23 communication style. Let's go through it real 24 quickly. 25 A. Okay. PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1477 1 Q. First it's, "June feels he withholds." Can you 2 tell the jury, what does that signify? 3 A. That Bill would withhold emotional support, he 4 would not converse with her, and the next phrase, 5 "Conversations go on and on" would be the complaint 6 that Bill had; that if he were to be responsive to her 7 in those circumstances, the conversations would 8 continue and continue to where he would feel 9 overwhelmed, and as I said in the next note, "I have 10 to leave when that happens." 11 Q. So "June feels he withholds, the conversation 12 goes on and on, and then I have to leave," that's sort 13 of a shorthand description as he was telling you about 14 it of, at least from his viewpoint, how their 15 interactions went; that if she approached him on 16 something, he wouldn't talk about it and then she 17 would feel that he was withholding, and if they 18 actually did start to talk, from his perspective, the 19 conversation would go on and on, and his solution to 20 not being able to handle it was he would just get up 21 and leave? 22 A. That would be one response or he would 23 withhold. Basically, he would leave the relationship 24 right at that point in time in the room. He just 25 wouldn't pay attention. PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1478 1 Q. The next note, "Anybody else, you are kind, 2 courteous." Is that Bill Forsyth talking about June? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And what does he mean there or what did you get 5 from him with that comment? 6 A. That instead of being cruel and tactless with 7 other people, you're kind and courteous. 8 Q. And then the next one, "Felt put down," is that 9 Bill feels put down? 10 A. Felt put down, yes. 11 Q. And did the "felt put down," does that relate 12 back to his comparison of her behavior towards him 13 versus her behavior towards others? 14 A. Well, if she would be kind and courteous to 15 others and not to him, that was a put-down. 16 Q. And that hurt him? 17 A. Um-hum. Yes. 18 Q. Now, there's an entry, a reference to Billy, is 19 that to their son, Bill, Jr.? 20 A. Yes, and we must have made a shift at that 21 point in time and he began to talk about his 22 relationship with his son, and he was saying, at that 23 point, that Billy didn't feel as though Bill had been 24 there for him. 25 Q. And that was a cause of concern for Bill, Sr.? PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1479 1 A. Yeah. As I said, this was a sift. This was a 2 relationship with Bill, Billy. 3 Q. There's the entry below that "Can't put any 4 pressure on her, any question or request." Can you 5 tell us what the reference is here? 6 A. Apparently, the statement about Billy was sort 7 of a parentheses at that point in time, because he 8 then goes back to his relationship with June and, I 9 think, describing how things are. If he wants to do 10 something and feels strongly about it, she resists at 11 that point, and any question or request that he might 12 have had, is the way that he stated it. 13 Q. And that is any question or request from June 14 or -- no, I beg your pardon. I said it the wrong way. 15 Any question or request from Bill, June would resist? 16 A. Would feel it as pressure. If she felt it as 17 pressure, she would resist. 18 Q. Now, did Bill Forsyth speak with you with 19 respect to the relationship and where he was in his 20 marriage and used the phrase or the concept that he 21 felt trapped in his marriage? 22 A. Yes, he did say that at that time. 23 Q. And when he came to see you, he was considering 24 a divorce? 25 A. Yes. PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1480 1 Q. And as he related it to you, his -- the 2 solution that he saw to get out of the trap, that he 3 felt was his marriage, was getting divorced? 4 A. That was one possible solution, but he was also 5 there to examine, maybe, if there was a possibility 6 for a reconciliation. 7 Q. Now, I wonder if I could ask you about a 8 specific note and it's in -- it's on the page of the 9 notes that you wrote later on, if you have your chart 10 there. 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. It's at the bottom of the page that's marked 13 2-5. 14 A. I have my original notes here. I don't have 15 the exhibit notes. 16 Q. Okay. Let's see here. 17 A. Although, is it -- what exhibit is it? I have 18 the deposition. 19 Q. It's 2-5 if it's in there. So the jury will 20 understand, soon after the Forsyths' deaths, as soon 21 as you learned that this had happened, you actually 22 sat down and wrote out a series of notes to sort of 23 preserve your memory of your interactions with them; 24 is that right? 25 A. Yes, that's correct. PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1481 1 Q. And that is what we're referring to now? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. The part I'd like to ask you about is down at 4 the bottom of the page on 2-5? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Where it says, "Living on Maui"? 7 A. That's correct, yeah. 8 Q. There's a reference there, "Essentially, Maui 9 was an acceptable place to live, but because of 10 pressures from Billy and his needs and the need Bill 11 had to have a business outlet, they discussed a move 12 back to southern California." That's the entry there? 13 A. That's right. 14 Q. So -- 15 MR. VICKERY: Excuse me, Mr. See. Would you 16 mind reading the complete paragraph? 17 Q (By Mr. See) And then it goes on after 18 southern California to say, "Palm Springs, where they 19 formerly owned a home. June was willing and looking 20 forward to a change." 21 A. That's right. 22 Q. Now, the question I want to ask you about is 23 the reference to "pressures from Billy and his needs." 24 How did you -- what did Mr. Forsyth relate to you 25 about that? PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1482 1 A. Well, his concerns with Billy had to do with 2 how he viewed Billy's lifestyle at that time. 3 Q. Can you tell us about that? 4 A. It's been six-and-a-half years, but what I can 5 remember from my notes had to do with the fact that 6 Bill enjoyed fishing and going on fishing trips for a 7 week or two weeks at a time, and Bill, Sr. didn't 8 think that that was appropriate. As I recall, it's 9 possible that Bill's wife was pregnant at the time and 10 he was, either had just taken a fishing trip or was 11 going to take one, and there was tension about that. 12 Q. I was just going to ask that the pressures from 13 Billy, as mentioned in the thought that they were 14 thinking about leaving Maui and moving back to 15 California -- 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. -- and I just wondered, was there anything else 18 that Mr. Forsyth told you about how it was that 19 pressures from Billy would cause them to think to move 20 back to California? 21 A. Well, I think it was kind of an 22 intergenerational viewpoint, you know, that when you 23 think about Bill's work history and the hours and 24 hours that he put in developing a business, his view 25 of the kinds of things that young adults are supposed PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1483 1 to be doing might very well be different than what 2 Bill, Jr.'s was, and I don't think he ever had any 3 concerns that Bill, Jr. wasn't providing financially 4 for his family, but he was concerned about whether he 5 was providing enough support to the grandchildren and 6 his wife. 7 Q. Let's go ahead and move to the next blowup. 8 This one is the one that starts with the list called 9 "Projective identification" up at the top. Do you see 10 that one? I hope I'm doing this in the right order. 11 A. Okay. Yes, I see it. 12 Q. Now, there are references to both Bill and June 13 on this particular blowup, so we would now be at the 14 point when June had joined the therapy sessions? 15 A. That's right. 16 Q. So, although this says September 18th up here, 17 that's not right. It was probably sometime in -- 18 well, it would have to be after October, right? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. After June had joined in. Now, first of all, 21 can you tell us what is projective identification? 22 A. Okay. Well, it's basically a psychoanalytic 23 concept, and it's one that's fairly easy to understand 24 if I can say it in a precise enough way. 25 Basically, we all have needs, needs for PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1484 1 nurturance, needs for emotional support, and these 2 kinds of things, and we look to others to meet those 3 needs, and sometimes rightfully or wrongfully, based 4 upon what our needs are and how we see the person, we 5 believe that this person can meet our needs. May not 6 be true at all, but we project upon them that they can 7 do that sort of thing for us. And, of course, what 8 often happens then is that because these are very 9 early needs that we have, there's disappointment that 10 comes when the person does not meet our needs. Even 11 though we've not told them that we have those needs 12 from them or told them that we have that kind of 13 expectation from them, when they fail us, it's very 14 disturbing to us. 15 Q. So is part of that that we may think we know 16 what our partner is thinking and we might be wrong 17 about it? 18 A. It's not so much a thinking thing. It's -- 19 well, maybe if I gave you an example. A very common 20 thing that I see in psychotherapy is that people will 21 attach themselves to other people who really do not 22 have the emotional strength to support them, and 23 that's the very thing that attracts them because 24 somehow that person doesn't share that they love you, 25 but if I could just get them to share that, then I PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1485 1 know that that would be something very special and 2 something very good. And as you can see, most often, 3 those kinds of relationships fail miserably. 4 Q. Now, let's look first at the column on the 5 right-hand side, which is marked "Bill." Do you have 6 that there? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Now, first it says, "From June." So is this 9 June talking about Bill? 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. And then it says, "Summed up a style for Bill, 12 he is" and then there are quotations and it says, 13 "running away"? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. That would be June's words? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. That's why you put the quotations around it? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And then we have the entry, "Didn't want to be 20 accountable." Is that also June describing her view 21 of her husband? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Asking you first about the running away quote, 24 was that June telling you about how she saw Bill solve 25 problems; that is, he would run away from them? PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1486 1 A. When it came to problems with her and the 2 issues, yes. 3 Q. And just to ask you this: Bill's method of 4 solving problems with June as running away, would that 5 be consistent with the history that you got about 6 their two separations; that is, Bill just left the 7 house and he was gone? 8 A. As I understand it, when he left the house, he 9 didn't tell her. He was just gone, yes, until he was 10 at the airport or something similar to that. 11 Q. And would the description of Bill's method of 12 dealing with conflict as running away also be 13 consistent with the behavior that has been described 14 of Bill when he couldn't cope with her, with June's 15 verbal presentations, of getting up and leaving the 16 room? 17 A. He would do that, or as I said before, maybe 18 the best term that we would use these days is he would 19 just tune her out. 20 Q. But all of those behaviors would kind of fit 21 under the running-away mechanism of handling conflict? 22 A. That's right. 23 Q. Now, if we can move over to the left-hand 24 column. That's the column marked "June." The first 25 entry there is, "Inadequate because never know what to PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1487 1 expect." Now, is that June describing herself? 2 A. Yes, it is. 3 Q. And what significance did you get out of June 4 describing herself as inadequate? 5 A. Part of this derives from my individual 6 sessions with June, and June had a view of herself 7 that she felt inadequate as a person. She felt shy, 8 that she wasn't as good a person as she should be, 9 these kinds of things. And I think in, specifically 10 here, because "never know what to expect," that would 11 have to do with what to expect from people, and so she 12 would, at least at this time as she was describing 13 herself, pull back from relationships and not have a 14 lot of intimacy. 15 Q. The next entry here is, "Five years ago 16 expressed need to communicate." Is this now June 17 giving you the story about the catalog of grievances 18 experience? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Then the entry, "Everything was, quote, new to 21 him." What does this refer to? 22 A. That all of the things that she shared at that 23 time were news to him, so to speak. He didn't know 24 that, as we said earlier. It was a complete surprise. 25 Q. That is, he had thought the relationship was PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1488 1 going just fine and he was very surprised that she 2 told him that, from her perspective, it was not? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And then the entry, "Devastated him," this was 5 June telling you? 6 A. Yes. She recognized that that had devastated 7 him. 8 Q. Now, there are some entries under this, 9 "Removed himself from me." This is June telling you 10 about Bill? 11 A. Yes, and I would take from that note that that 12 was the style of leaving. 13 Q. And then "Threatened, argumentative," this is 14 also June telling you about Bill? 15 A. Yes, that Bill was threatened and would be 16 argumentative and treat her as an enemy. 17 Q. And that would cover the last entry here, 18 "Treated me as an enemy," this was June's description 19 of how her husband had treated her? 20 A. Yes. 21 THE COURT: Let's break for lunch now. Please 22 be back at one o'clock. 23 (Whereupon, a lunch recess was taken at 24 12:00 p.m.) 25 THE COURT: Please proceed, Mr. See. PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1489 1 MR. SEE: Thank you, Your Honor. 2 Q. Afternoon, Doctor. 3 A. Afternoon. 4 Q. Was it correct that based upon your interaction 5 with Bill Forsyth, you learned that a significant 6 issue that came between him and his wife was her role 7 in the relationship was changing somewhat? 8 A. By "role changing," you mean insofar as -- 9 Q. Probably not a good question. Let me try 10 again. 11 A. Okay. 12 Q. Did you learn that because June Forsyth was 13 becoming more assertive in desiring to participate in 14 decision-making -- you did learn that? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And is it correct that you learned from Bill 17 Forsyth that that role change had been a source of 18 conflict for him? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And when Mr. Forsyth came in to see you and 21 told you about the issues that were troubling him, 22 that was an issue that was troubling him? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Let me put up the last blowup from your 25 records. This is the one that has the two lists, Bill PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1490 1 and June. Do you have that small one there? 2 A. Yes, I do. I have that. 3 Q. Now, also this one dates from the time when 4 Mrs. Forsyth was being involved in the counseling? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. So the September 18th up here that we put on 7 this really reflects that was the first visit in the 8 series of visits? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. But doesn't date this particular blowup? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. This one would probably be October or November 13 of '92? 14 A. Yes, early November, late October. 15 Q. Now, here you have a column for Bill and a 16 column for June, and if we could look at the column 17 for Bill first, the first entry there and it's in 18 quotation marks. It says, "Details overwhelm me." 19 Now, the quotation marks would mean these are the 20 exact words that Mr. Forsyth spoke to you? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And in his relating that to you, what did he 23 mean? How did you take that? 24 A. That when June would be sharing what her 25 concerns were, she, as I said before, was a verbally PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1491 1 articulate woman and she would give him more details 2 than he could handle. 3 Q. And he actually had a problem in handling that 4 or coping with that much information directed at him? 5 A. Yes, from June. 6 Q. And that was a source of irritation to him, as 7 he related it to you? 8 A. Yes. The next line, "How do I frame it," was I 9 need to let you know how this affects me, and how can 10 I state it in such a way that you can understand that. 11 Q. This is how he was questioning himself, how do 12 I tell her about this? 13 A. No. Actually, that was what was transpiring in 14 our session. 15 Q. So he was saying, how can I make you, 16 Dr. Brady, understand this? 17 A. No. When I say frame, that's not his word, 18 that's my word, and that's find some different way to 19 say this just overwhelms me so that she can understand 20 and give you the space that you need. 21 For example, as I said, "If you will just stop 22 and be quiet and concentrate," that's the way he would 23 say it to her, and that didn't work with June, so he 24 needed to find a different way to say that. 25 Q. Let's look at that then. His approach would PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1492 1 be, "If you'll just stop and be quiet," and then is 2 this the corresponding entry on the June column where 3 June said, this is the old way? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And she didn't like that? 6 A. No, she didn't like that. 7 Q. And also what she was telling you was she 8 feared of being treated in that old way? 9 A. That's correct. 10 Q. Now, from your interaction or your -- I beg 11 your pardon. From your relationship and counseling 12 with June Forsyth, did you learn that she, because of 13 her personal history and psychological makeup, had a 14 fear of abandonment? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And would her fear of abandonment make itself 17 clearly known to her when Bill was in one of his, I'm 18 not going to talk to you, I'm going to tune you out, 19 I'm going to leave the room, kind of phases? 20 A. That would bring up that fear, yes. 21 Q. And also from what you learned from Mr. and 22 Mrs. Forsyth, when June felt that fear of abandonment, 23 it would cause her to try to engage in even more, 24 wouldn't it? 25 A. I'm sure, at times, that would be the case. PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1493 1 Q. And that would cause him to withdraw and try to 2 get away from it even more? 3 A. Yes, that would be the case. 4 Q. And that was the nature of this relationship, 5 this conflict that fed upon itself? 6 A. Certainly in those five years prior to our 7 meeting. 8 Q. Now, returning to the column regarding Bill. 9 The entry is "Conflict not acceptable because 10 catastrophic." 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. That was Bill's sense of it? 13 A. I'm not sure if that was Bill's word, but it 14 was my sense of the way he talked about that, and as 15 you see in the next note, he had a mother who was very 16 dominant and viewed her as such, and that when there 17 was conflict, it was always catastrophic in his 18 growing up. 19 Q. In fact, did he not tell you that when he felt 20 any assertiveness from June, it reminded him of his 21 mother and he didn't like it? 22 A. No, he didn't. He never said that in those 23 exact terms. That would pretty much be an 24 interpretation on my part that that would be related 25 to the experience that he had growing up and why he PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1494 1 had difficulty with conflict. 2 Q. And that would be you as the therapist or 3 psychologist interpreting what he was telling you? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. What the significance might be? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. He gave you a history that he had neglected his 8 sexual relationship with his wife? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And she also gave the same kind of history? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And that was a source of conflict between them? 13 A. Well, this was history in that during that 14 period of time that Bill was working hard to develop 15 the business, that so far as the family was concerned 16 and their personal relationship, that he was 17 neglectful sexually and pretty much took her for 18 granted; and June, for her part, is saying she didn't 19 demand. She didn't -- demand might not be the right 20 word, but she didn't say, hey, there's something wrong 21 here, so there weren't good sexual habits. She 22 recognized that. 23 Q. Now, during the time you were having the 24 individual sessions with Mr. Forsyth by himself, did 25 the topic of whether he had been unfaithful to his PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1495 1 wife come up? 2 A. Yes, it did. And he never said that there was 3 any other relationship that he had with anyone. 4 Q. Did you, as a therapist, look upon the couple 5 being truthful in their responses and truthful in 6 their sharing of what their feelings were and so on as 7 being sort of a necessary element in making the 8 therapy work? 9 A. I would think so, yes. If a person comes in 10 and lies to the therapist, it really isn't going to 11 accomplish very much, is it? 12 Q. Now, you asked them, I think I recall, about a 13 goal, you asked each of them what their goal would be? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And the first entry is June's; is that right? 16 That she wanted to "have time to have peace and joy 17 and not walk on eggshells"? 18 A. No, that would have been Bill's. Actually, all 19 those in that column would be Bill's. 20 Q. Okay. I do see that. That's why it's good to 21 have something you can erase. So the first -- the 22 whole entry on this side is Bill's and then the entry 23 on the right-hand side is June's? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. So the goal that Bill gave was that he would PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1496 1 like to "have time and peace and joy and not to walk 2 on eggshells." What did the "not walk on eggshells" 3 refer to? 4 A. Well, that particular metaphor, it seems, is 5 just talking about feeling that if he were to say the 6 wrong thing or do the wrong thing, there would be 7 conflict. 8 Q. And then down at the bottom, you asked each of 9 them, I think it was something like, finish this 10 sentence, I feel loved when, and then you asked each 11 of them to fill in the blank; is that right? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And the way Bill filled in the blank was, "feel 14 loved when June is at peace. I'm not bugged." 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. How did you take that? 17 A. Well, I remember at the time thinking this was 18 really a microcosm of things, how, for Bill, he just 19 wants to be in a comfort zone in which he feels that 20 there is control. And when there's not conflict, then 21 he doesn't feel bugged, and so that's the way he would 22 feel most loved is if he could be in control. 23 Q. And his particular reference to, "I'm not 24 bugged," would that relate to the verbal input from 25 his wife June? PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1497 1 A. I didn't take it to mean that. I think he 2 would feel bugged when there was conflict and, of 3 course, verbal relationship could be one possibility 4 that he would feel bugged in that circumstance. 5 Q. And then June's, "I feel loved when someone 6 tells me they love me." 7 A. Yeah. I'm not sure whether it's feel loved 8 when someone tells me when they love me or that they 9 love me, but in any case, it is the same meaning. 10 Q. Okay. Thank you. Dr. Brady, at one or more 11 points during your counseling sessions with Bill 12 Forsyth, he actually brought to the sessions pages 13 from his wife's diaries; isn't that right? 14 A. Yes, he did. 15 Q. And was his purpose in that to let you see what 16 she had been writing and discuss it and that sort of 17 thing? 18 A. His purpose, that he told me, was for me to get 19 an understanding of who June was, and so he shared 20 those with me before June came on the scene. 21 Q. Now, during the time that you were counseling 22 with Bill Forsyth, it is true, isn't it, that he spoke 23 with you about the fact that he was experiencing 24 anxiety? 25 A. Yes. PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1498 1 Q. And he told you he was having trouble sleeping? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And having trouble relaxing? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And, in fact, from your observation of him when 6 he would come in the sessions, you could see that he 7 was, at that time, agitated? 8 A. Initially, he was more agitated than he was 9 later in the sessions. 10 Q. And then I think you said you last saw either 11 Bill or June Forsyth on December 4th of '92? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And on the 7th, I think we heard, they flew 14 back to Maui, so you had no more face-to-face contact? 15 A. No more face-to-face contact. 16 Q. Now, your interaction with Bill and June 17 Forsyth was, essentially, in the role as a marriage 18 counselor? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. You did not administer any psychological 21 testing to Mr. Forsyth? 22 A. No, there was none administered. 23 Q. And really did not arrive at any kind of 24 psychological diagnosis of him, that just wasn't what 25 you were doing? PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1499 1 A. That's correct. He came in with a marital 2 problem, and one diagnosis that there is in the 3 DSM-III is that there's a marital problem that's not 4 caused by a mental illness. 5 Q. Now, we have evidence in the case, that was put 6 on before you got here, that Mr. Forsyth was 7 ultimately given a diagnosis of major depression with 8 anxiety, and my question is, because of the timing of 9 your interaction with him, you never actually saw 10 Mr. Forsyth during the time he was diagnosed as having 11 major depression with anxiety, correct? 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. And after Mr. Forsyth was diagnosed with major 14 depression with anxiety or at the time he was, he was 15 seeing a psychiatrist on Maui, a Dr. Roberts. Did you 16 subsequently learn that was the case? 17 A. Subsequently, after the deaths of June and Bill 18 Forsyth. 19 Q. So at the time that you were seeing and 20 providing marital counseling for Mr. and Mrs. Forsyth, 21 you really didn't know about the issues that he would 22 subsequently raise with Dr. Roberts? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Now, I'd like to ask you, based upon your 25 learning about the Forsyths and knowing them and PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1500 1 interacting with them as a marital counselor, is it 2 correct that they had developed a pattern of 3 interaction where they would build up to a crisis 4 point and confront one another, and subsequently kind 5 of back off and maybe withdraw from each other and not 6 communicate very much until there would come and it 7 would build up again to another crisis point and they 8 would confront one another and repeat that sort of 9 thing? Was that the pattern that you learned about 10 and spoke about with them? 11 A. Yes, I think that that's the way that I 12 described it in my deposition earlier, that there were 13 these tensions between them and they would go months 14 at a time -- they built a home together on Maui, they 15 travelled together, somehow they found a way to live 16 with one another, and that would be my sense, that 17 they would reach -- just as you said, they would reach 18 a crisis point and then back off of that, and I 19 suspect that that probably would happen any number of 20 times over that two-year period that they were in 21 Maui. 22 Q. In fact, it is your view, is it not, that 23 Mr. Forsyth's leaving Maui to go to Los Angeles in the 24 summer of '92 was probably the aftermath of reaching 25 one of those crisis points and confrontations? PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1501 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And his -- well, let me ask it this way: And 3 in your view, was his reaction to that crisis point; 4 that is, by walking down the steps and getting in the 5 car and driving to the airport and flying to Los 6 Angeles without even telling his wife where he was 7 going, was that consistent with the pattern that he 8 had described to you of his method of coping with 9 conflict and stress by running away? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And again, from your interaction with 12 Mr. Forsyth, was the running away from the crisis 13 point and the conflict a result of the fact that he 14 was unable to deal with the stress that that conflict 15 produced? 16 A. Yes, that would be fair to say. 17 MR. SEE: Thank you very much, sir. I pass the 18 witness. 19 THE COURT: Mr. Vickery. 20 MR. VICKERY: Thank you, Your Honor. 21 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 22 BY MR. VICKERY: 23 Q. I just have a few things to clear up, 24 Dr. Brady, and the first one concerns this crisis 25 point stuff. Was one of your goals in having therapy PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1502 1 with this couple to give them the tools to deal with 2 their problems in the future so that they didn't come 3 up to a crisis point, so that they could deal with 4 things as they arose? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And do you feel like you were successful in 7 doing that? 8 A. I believe that they had some tools in hand when 9 we finished our therapy, and certainly, it's a process 10 of learning and they were well on their way and we had 11 thought that we would get together at some point in 12 the future to do some more work. 13 Q. Based on the tools that they had as of December 14 the 4th, when you last saw them, did you anticipate 15 there were going to be any more crisis points, or did 16 you think it would be resolved on a day-to-day ongoing 17 way? 18 A. I don't know that there would be that same 19 crisis level that they would reach where he would 20 leave. I would not have anticipated that. Certainly 21 in any relationship, you're going to have some 22 tensions, and hopefully, they had some tools to deal 23 with those. 24 Q. Okay, sir. Now, when Bill gave you these pages 25 from June's journal, was that something that she had PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1503 1 permitted him to share with you so you could get her 2 side of things or do you know? 3 A. I don't think so. I don't think so. 4 Q. Did you subsequently tell her about that? Did 5 that come up, if you recall? 6 A. You know, I don't believe it did. 7 Q. Was Bill Forsyth a truthful man with you? 8 A. I think so. Yeah, I believe so. 9 Q. There are some references in various of the 10 documents, in June's journals, perhaps in your notes 11 and certainly in some others', about the concept of a 12 wide path or wide space. Can you explain to us how 13 that was used in terms of their relationship with one 14 another? 15 A. Well, I would -- I don't think that that's 16 particularly a term that I gave her. One that would 17 make more sense for me is to give Bill some wiggle 18 room, you know, because he -- when things got tight, 19 he needed some space, and that's what I meant by 20 wiggle room, and maybe she would have used a wide path 21 to mean that same thing. 22 Q. Well, one of the things that we have seen 23 already from June's journals, right in the time when 24 she was visiting with you and Bill jointly, one of 25 them says, "I choose today to love Bill PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1504 1 unconditionally and to give him a wide path." Were 2 you seeing that sort of wiggle room and unconditional 3 love from her? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. You mentioned their relationships with their 6 children, Bill, in particular, with Bill, Jr. and June 7 with Susan. What was your sense of how these parents 8 wanted to react toward their children in the future? 9 I mean, did they love them? Did they want better 10 relationships with them? 11 A. Oh, absolutely. June's goal was to have a much 12 closer relationship with Susan. She wanted to work on 13 that. And Bill also wanted to work on the 14 relationship with Bill, Jr. 15 Q. Okay, sir. 16 A. As a matter of fact, just as a little addendum, 17 they had said, in that final telephone call that I 18 had, is that they were going to rethink the move to 19 Palm Springs and that Maui was a nice place to live. 20 Q. Did they mention to you that they had a new 21 grandchild due in a matter of weeks? 22 A. I think I knew that, yes. 23 Q. Now, Mr. See asked you about this marital trap, 24 okay, how they felt trapped early on. On December 4, 25 1992, when you last saw them in joint session PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1505 1 together, were either one of them feeling trapped in 2 their marriage? 3 A. No. They were, I think, very close at that 4 time. They were enjoying each other's company. The 5 whole flavor of the last few sessions and the last 6 week that we had was very positive and very oriented 7 towards a good future together. 8 MR. VICKERY: Thank you, Dr. Brady. That's all 9 I have. 10 MR. SEE: I have nothing further, Your Honor. 11 Thank you very much, Dr. Brady. 12 THE COURT: Thank you. You're excused. 13 MR. VICKERY: Your Honor, we call Mrs. William 14 Forsyth, Jr., Kim or Karen Forsyth. 15 THE CLERK: Please raise your right hand. 16 KAREN FORSYTH, 17 called as a witness on behalf of the Plaintiffs, after 18 having been first duly sworn to tell the truth, the 19 whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was examined 20 and testified as follows: 21 THE CLERK: Please be seated. Please state 22 your name and spell your last name. 23 THE WITNESS: Karen Forsyth, F-O-R-S-Y-T-H. 24 MR. CHANG: May it please the Court, Your 25 Honor, Roy Chang appearing on behalf of the plaintiffs PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1506 1 and I'll be doing the examination of Mrs. Forsyth. 2 THE COURT: Very well. 3 MR. CHANG: Thank you, Your Honor. 4 DIRECT EXAMINATION 5 BY MR. CHANG: 6 Q. Karen, I understand that you also go by the 7 name of Kim; is that right? 8 A. Yes, I do. 9 Q. Would it be okay if I call you Kim? 10 A. Um-hum. 11 Q. Karen, have you ever testified in court before? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Are you a little nervous? 14 A. Sure. 15 Q. Just relax, and if you could speak a little 16 closer into the microphone, that probably would help. 17 Kim, can you tell us a little bit about yourself? For 18 example, Can you tell us where you were born? 19 A. I was born in Torrance, California. 20 Q. And did you grow up there? 21 A. Yes, I did. 22 Q. And did you go to high school there? 23 A. Yes, I did. 24 Q. Where did you go to high school? 25 A. I went to South High School in Torrance. PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1507 1 Q. And when did you graduate? 2 A. 1973. 3 Q. At some point in time, did you come to visit 4 Hawaii? 5 A. Yes, I did. I came out in 1974 to visit my 6 sister who was living here at the time. 7 Q. And how long did you stay on that trip? 8 A. Well, I had planned only to stay a little 9 while, but I ended up staying about a year. 10 Q. And did you return back to California? 11 A. Yes, I did. 12 Q. Did you subsequently make another trip back to 13 Hawaii? 14 A. I did a few years later. In 1977, I came back. 15 Q. And how long did you stay at that point in 16 time? 17 A. I stayed about three months, and then I went 18 back to the Mainland for a few more months and then 19 returned back in '79. 20 Q. And when you say you returned back to Hawaii, 21 was it to Honolulu or to a different island? 22 A. To Maui. 23 Q. And did you, when you returned in 1979, start 24 to work in Maui? 25 A. Yes, I did. PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1508 1 Q. And what kind of jobs would you do in Maui? 2 A. I started out waitressing, and then I did that 3 for a few years, and then I also worked for a 4 helicopter company, Papillon Helicopters. 5 Q. And one of the restaurants that you worked at 6 was Kimo's? 7 A. Yes, it was. 8 Q. And is that where you met Billy? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Can you tell us when you met Billy and what he 11 was doing at that time? 12 A. I met him -- he was working at Kimo's at the 13 same time I was, and we worked together a few times 14 and that's how I met him. And we also had a mutual 15 friend there who introduced us. 16 Q. Do you remember the year that you and Billy 17 met? This is the real big test. 18 A. Yeah, it was three years before I got married, 19 so it was 1981. 20 Q. So you were married in 1984? 21 A. Right. 22 Q. What month was that? 23 A. June. 24 Q. And you and Billy have how many children? 25 A. Four. PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1509 1 Q. Can you tell us your oldest child, first of 2 all, that child's name and also her age? 3 A. Shana is our oldest and she's 13 years old; 4 Seth is our oldest son and he's 11; and there's 5 Willie, he's 9; and our youngest, Wesley, who will be 6 6 on Friday. 7 Q. At some point in time, William and June Forsyth 8 moved to Maui; is that right? 9 A. That's right. 10 Q. And that was approximately in 1990? 11 A. That was about 1990. 12 Q. Prior to them moving to Maui, would they come 13 and visit you and Billy and your family on occasion? 14 A. Um-hum, very often. 15 Q. And how is it that they decided to move to 16 Maui? 17 A. I believe -- well, they loved it over here and 18 they came to visit us often and they had an 19 opportunity to buy some -- or buy a lot up on the 20 Kaanapali hillside, and I think they wanted to be 21 close to us and the grandkids. 22 Q. And they did buy a house lot and built their 23 own house; is that right? 24 A. That's right. 25 Q. Could you briefly tell us the kinds or -- first PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1510 1 of all, how often would Bill and June Forsyth visit 2 with you and Bill and your family? 3 A. They came over quite often. Several times a 4 week, June -- I mean, June called me quite often and 5 she would drop in and so would his father. It was 6 pretty regularly. On weekends, we would get together 7 and they would invite us up just about every weekend 8 to barbecue with them, so yeah, we spent a lot of time 9 with them. 10 Q. And also the holidays, would you get together 11 on the holidays? 12 A. Definitely. June would make a big meal on 13 Thanksgiving and Christmas and we would go over to 14 their house and spend the holidays together. 15 Q. Now, Kim, could you describe for us the kind of 16 relationship Billy had with his father? Tell us some 17 of the things they would do together. 18 A. He had a very close relationship with his 19 father. In fact, when I first met him, I remembered 20 when they greeted each other and they would give bear 21 hugs, I was very impressed by that. Wow, he's got a 22 close relationship with his dad, and they did a lot 23 together. They would go out to breakfast. They both 24 liked to fly model airplanes and they would get 25 together about once a week and fly those together. PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1511 1 And we all went to church together. We went out to 2 dinner occasionally, brunch. He spent -- or he would 3 just go up and visit with him, spend time with him. 4 Q. Can you tell us, did Billy ever discuss with 5 you how he looked at his father as far as his father 6 being a businessman and how he either agreed or 7 disliked his father in reference to business? 8 A. He talked about how his father taught him about 9 finances, and he was -- I could just tell by the way 10 he talked about him, he really admired his father and 11 looked up to him as a role model for business. 12 Q. If you and Billy or your family ever needed any 13 help around the house, would Billy's father come over 14 and help? 15 A. Sure. Yeah. He was a very helpful guy. He 16 was always -- I don't know. He just liked to help 17 people. He was one of those very generous men and 18 friendly, and he would give people advice, financial 19 advice, and help his friends out a lot and, yes, he 20 was there when you needed him. 21 Q. And how was Bill, Sr., how was he with the 22 family, with Billy or with the kids? How was he as a 23 person? 24 A. He was great. He was very funny and very 25 social, very likeable. He would come over to the PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1512 1 house and fool around with the kids and tease them, 2 play the buzzy bee game that he would like to play 3 with them, chase them around and tickle them and bring 4 them little treats. He was just a great guy. 5 Q. We saw some videos of your family, and we 6 understand that Bill, Sr. took the videos most of the 7 time. Was there a reason why he would take those 8 videos? 9 A. Well, he just really enjoyed it and he just 10 wanted to capture those special moments on the videos 11 of all the kids and the special times we had together. 12 He loved his family. He was a very family-oriented 13 man. 14 Q. Kim, could you describe for us the relationship 15 that Billy had with his mother? 16 A. Yes. He was -- him and his mother had a really 17 neat bond, and she was a great influence in his life 18 as far as God is concerned. She would pray for him 19 daily, and I think she really influenced him where he 20 has a relationship with God now and goes to church 21 regularly. And she was very supportive of him, 22 encouraging in whatever he decided to do. It was a 23 good relationship. 24 Q. And, Kim, if, you know, someone was ill or you 25 were ill and needed some help around the house, was PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1513 1 Billy's mother there for you? 2 A. Yes, she was. She was really helpful that way. 3 She would bring over meals or offer to watch the kids. 4 Even if we weren't sick, she would bring meals over. 5 She was just that way. Very helpful. If you needed 6 to talk, she was the type of person you could really 7 sit down and talk to and she'd listen and give me 8 advice. She was a really neat lady. 9 Q. Was she the kind of person that would be 10 strong-willed in that her opinion was the correct 11 opinion, she tried to influence you that way? Was 12 that your experience of her? 13 A. She spoke the truth. I mean, she gave me her 14 opinion, but I don't think she really tried to force 15 it upon me or anything. She would speak her mind, 16 what she thought. 17 Q. And let them make their own decisions or the 18 children make their own decisions? 19 A. Um-hum, yes. 20 Q. And how was June Forsyth with your family, the 21 grandchildren? 22 A. I'm sorry? 23 Q. How was June as she interacted with the 24 grandchildren? What kind of person was she? 25 A. She was great. She was a really neat grandma. PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1514 1 She reminded me a lot of my own grandma. She would 2 have the kids over. She had a little room set up for 3 them with bunk beds and toys. She was kind of 4 child-like herself. She collected all these little 5 stuffed animals and mice and she would bring them 6 little treats, and she just adored them. She loved 7 them. She just really doted on them. 8 Q. Kim, did you have the opportunity to observe 9 Susan and her relationship with both her mother and 10 father? 11 A. A little bit. Susan was on the Mainland and we 12 were all over here, so I wasn't around them too much. 13 So when she was around, it was usually with all of us 14 together, but yeah, they had a good relationship, too. 15 Q. And was there a period of time when you 16 actually lived in California with Bill and June 17 Forsyth? 18 A. Um-hum. In 1986, we were there for, oh, six to 19 nine months. 20 Q. And during that period of time, did you have a 21 chance to see how they interacted with Susan during 22 that occasion? 23 A. Um-hum, I did a little bit. Susan was gone to 24 school a lot. She was usually gone in the morning or 25 home late or she was out with her friends, but I do PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1515 1 remember a lot of times together at the dinner table 2 and eating and talking and laughing and interacting or 3 Bill and Susan having friends over and Bill and June 4 just really opening their home for their friends and 5 barbecuing for everybody. It was great. 6 Q. Describe for us the relationship that June had 7 with Susan on that occasion when you were up there in 8 California. 9 A. I think they -- from what I could see, they had 10 a good relationship. I think June was always very 11 concerned about Susan and how she was doing and how 12 her life was going and how school was going for her. 13 I believe they had deep heart-to-heart talks, so yeah, 14 mother-daughter close relationship. 15 Q. How about between Susan and her father? 16 A. Um-hum. From what I could see, Susan really 17 adored her father and she -- he's the kind of man that 18 she just really looked up to and she was involved with 19 him. He had some apartments that he took care of or 20 that he owned and Susan would help him when they would 21 get a new renter in there and she would go down there 22 and help him repaint it and fix it up. She was very 23 handy like that, so she would go down there. 24 So she was very close in that way, they worked 25 together. He was very supportive of her going to PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1516 1 school, as was June, and very proud of her. 2 Q. Now, Kim, I'm going to switch gears a little 3 bit and come back to Maui, and the day would be 4 March 3rd, the day that the Forsyths went to the 5 hospital. Do you remember that day? 6 A. Um-hum, very clearly. 7 Q. Can you tell us the circumstance? 8 MR. BURKE: Excuse me, the date that he went to 9 Castle, I believe it was February the 24th. 10 Q (By Mr. Chang) I'm sorry. I stand corrected. 11 The date he went to Castle was February 24th; is that 12 correct? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Can you tell us what you recall about that date 15 or how it was that you first came to learn that Bill 16 was going to go to the hospital? 17 A. I believe that Billy called me from the house 18 and said, "I'm bringing my dad over. He wants to go 19 to the hospital, and so we're going to take the car so 20 get ready. We're coming over." And I think I said, 21 "Right now?" And he said, "Yes. He really wants to 22 go." 23 So they came over and I was upstairs in the 24 bedroom, and you have to walk upstairs to get to the 25 living room, and when I came out of the bedroom, he PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1517 1 was standing at the top of the stairs there. 2 Q. And how did Mr. Forsyth appear to you when you 3 first saw him on that occasion? 4 A. He was pretty subdued and quiet, but he was -- 5 but the look in his face was -- his eyes were dilated 6 and very glassy and he just had this really shifty 7 glance and it scared me. I'd never seen that before 8 and he seemed -- his posture -- he just seemed sort of 9 withdrawn and to himself, and he just kind of -- he 10 was standing there, but he was sort of moving around 11 and it was -- I'll just never forget his eyes. It was 12 just a very scary look. It was a different person. I 13 never saw him like that before. His eyes looked very 14 scary. 15 Q. Was he doing anything with his hands? 16 A. It seemed to me like he was holding something, 17 or I don't know if he was, but it seemed like he was 18 kind of fidgeting with something. I don't recall if 19 he was holding something, but I seem to remember his 20 hands moving around. 21 Q. And you've never seen Bill Forsyth like this 22 prior to that date? 23 A. Never. 24 Q. And I think you mentioned he looked like a 25 totally different person to you? PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1518 1 A. Totally. He seemed like a completely different 2 person. 3 Q. And how did you feel inside yourself when you 4 saw him like that? 5 A. I was scared. 6 Q. Bill and June Forsyth came back, well, at least 7 Bill came back to Maui, I believe it was March 3rd; is 8 that correct? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And did you see him on that occasion? 11 A. No, I didn't. 12 Q. Would it be fair to say that the day he went to 13 the hospital was the last day that you saw him? 14 A. Yes, it would be. 15 Q. Now, we've heard all the testimony as to what 16 happened, and it's our understanding that Billy found 17 his parents the following day on March 4th; is that 18 right? 19 A. That's right. 20 Q. How were you first made aware that something 21 had happened? 22 A. Billy called me. They were supposed to go out 23 on the boat that day with him. He had invited them to 24 go out. He was boat captain for one of the hotel 25 boats and they were supposed to meet him like sometime PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1519 1 in the morning. I think it was at ten o'clock or 2 something, and so he called me and said, "Please call 3 my parents. They haven't showed up yet. They haven't 4 showed up and they must be late or something," and so 5 I said okay. 6 And so I called the house and all I got was the 7 answering machine, and so I just left a message, you 8 know, that, "Billy called. He was wondering where you 9 were. Call you later or, you know, when you get home, 10 call me." So that's -- then he called me again, I 11 think it was about one o'clock. He said, "My parents 12 never showed up at the boat." He said, "I'm worried. 13 I'm concerned." 14 Q. At some point in that afternoon, was Billy 15 supposed to pick up one of your children? 16 A. Yes, he was. He had Seth out on the boat with 17 him, and I was supposed to pick up Seth. That's what 18 it was. I was supposed to pick up Seth at two 19 o'clock, I think it was, from the boat, and so I went 20 down there to pick him up and Bill said, "He's going 21 to stay with me and go on the sunset sail," so I said 22 okay, so I left Seth with Bill and I headed home. 23 Q. And when was the next time you heard from 24 Billy? 25 A. The next time is when he called me from the PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1520 1 house and he called and he said -- there was a phone 2 out on their deck and he called me from there. "I'm 3 out on the deck here and the house is all locked up 4 and I don't see anybody here." And he said -- I said, 5 "Well, that's strange. Well, maybe they're down the 6 street at a neighbor's house or something," because 7 the cars were there, too. And he said, "Yeah, maybe." 8 So he hung up and five minutes later, I got 9 another phone call and he said, "Call 911." And I 10 said, "Why? What's wrong?" And he said, "It's my 11 dad." And I said, "What? What happened?" And I 12 don't remember what he said. All I remember is 13 that -- is that I got hysterical. 14 Q. Did you ask Billy to bring Seth home right 15 away? 16 A. That was it. I got hysterical and I said, "Is 17 Seth with you?" And he said, "Yes, he is." And he 18 said, "It's not just my dad. It's my mom." He said, 19 "It's my dad and my mom." And I said, "Is Seth with 20 you?" And he said, "Yes." And I said, "Just get him 21 home right away. Did he see anything?" And he said, 22 "No, he's waiting outside." 23 And so he hung up and then I called 911 and I 24 was pretty hysterical, so the kids kept saying, 25 "What's wrong? What's wrong?" I said, "Just go wait PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1521 1 in the bedroom and wait there until I tell you to come 2 out." And I called 911 and was asking -- she was 3 asking me a million questions. I said, "Just please 4 get an ambulance over there." And Bill came in the 5 door and his face was just white ash. He was just in 6 shock. And then he took over the phone call and I 7 actually started to go into labor. I was pregnant. I 8 was due any day and I had to -- sorry. 9 I had to lay down on the floor and I don't 10 remember much after that, except that eventually I was 11 okay and then Bill had to leave again, too. He had to 12 go meet the police back at the house. 13 Q. Now, you were expecting your fourth child and 14 that's Wesley? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And he was born on, you said -- 17 A. He was born March 19th. 18 Q. So prior to this happening, certainly June and 19 Bill were aware that you were expecting? 20 A. Yes. They were very excited, especially June. 21 Q. And did June do something for you for your last 22 child? 23 A. Yeah, she did. She threw a huge baby shower 24 for me at her home and a lot of people came, and she 25 was extremely excited and it was really wonderful. PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1522 1 Q. Now, Kim, I'm going to ask you how the -- in 2 reference to Susan, first, how the loss of her parents 3 has impacted her. 4 MR. BURKE: Your Honor, I'm going to have to 5 object to that. It seems to be calling for an expert 6 kind of opinion. 7 MR. CHANG: Your Honor -- 8 THE COURT: I can't hear you. 9 MR. CHANG: -- I don't see why an expert 10 witness' testimony is needed. She's expressing grief 11 or she's expressing sadness. She certainly can 12 testify to that. It doesn't require an expert to do 13 that. 14 THE COURT: I'll allow her to testify what she 15 observed and no opinions. 16 MR. CHANG: Thank you. 17 Q. Kim, can you tell us, from what you observed, 18 how the loss of her parents has affected Susan? 19 A. Well, from what I observed, it's created a 20 great void in her life. They were a very close family 21 and it's a great loss for her and -- it is hard to do 22 this without stating my opinion in what I see, but 23 yes, it's devastating. It's created a great loss in 24 her life. They're not there to share in her life now, 25 and she was very close to them and she doesn't have PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1523 1 them to turn to now. It's only her brother and 2 herself, and Bill and I have our kids and our family. 3 She's all alone. She's not married. She's single. 4 She's got friends and everything, but it is a 5 tremendous loss. 6 Q. Kim, in reference to Billy, how was Billy a 7 year after his parents' death? 8 A. Billy was -- he was like a different person. 9 He was devastated. There wasn't a day that went by 10 that he didn't say, "I miss my dad so much. I just 11 wish I could talk to him." And he seemed very lost. 12 He -- Billy is a very -- Billy has always known where 13 he's going and what he's doing. He just seemed very 14 lost and it's a great void in his life, too. 15 And he isn't one to cry easily, but I've seen 16 him cry more times, especially those first couple 17 years, than I did the whole, whatever, ten years we 18 were married. It has affected him greatly. He still 19 misses them, of course. He's very close to them. 20 They were not only father and son, they were friends. 21 MR. CHANG: Thank you, Kim. Your Honor, I have 22 no further questions. I'll pass the witness at this 23 time. 24 MR. BURKE: Thank you, Your Honor. 25 CROSS-EXAMINATION PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1524 1 BY MR. BURKE: 2 Q. Good afternoon, Mrs. Forsyth. 3 A. Good afternoon. 4 Q. I want to talk to you a little bit about the 5 year 1992. You became aware, during the summer of 6 1992, that Bill Forsyth left and went to California? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And at that time, June told you that he had 9 left without telling her where she was -- where he was 10 going? 11 A. I believe so. 12 Q. And she also told you that part of the reason 13 for him leaving was that they had been having marital 14 problems? 15 A. I don't remember exactly what she told me. I 16 was just aware of the fact that, I believe, she called 17 and told us he was on the Mainland. 18 Q. But didn't she tell you that they were having 19 marital problems? 20 A. I don't know if she did at that time. I knew 21 they were, yes. 22 Q. You had observed that before Bill left? 23 A. She had told -- she had mentioned that they 24 were having some problems. I hadn't observed it that 25 much myself, but she had told me. PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1525 1 Q. Had June also told you that one of the problems 2 was that after Bill retired, being that he was quite a 3 hyper personality, that he was having trouble 4 adjusting to retired life? 5 A. I don't remember her telling me that. 6 Q. Well, let me see if I can help you out a bit 7 here. 8 A. Okay. 9 MR. BURKE: May I approach the witness, Your 10 Honor? 11 THE COURT: You may. 12 Q (By Mr. Burke) I'm going to give you a copy 13 of your deposition, which I believe was taken on 14 March 6 of 1996, a couple years ago, three years ago, 15 I guess. Now, if you would turn to Page 30 -- 16 actually, to put this in context, let's turn to 17 Page 29 and the question that starts with Line 24, and 18 I'm going to read over to the next page and would you 19 follow me along. The basic question is, were these 20 the questions that were asked and are these the 21 answers you gave at that time? The question is, 22 "Whether before or after Mr. Forsyth went to the 23 Mainland, what did Mrs. Forsyth tell you about their 24 marital problems? 25 "ANSWER: She didn't discuss it with me then. PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1526 1 Just at different times, she would bring something up. 2 "QUESTION: I'm asking you, at those different 3 times, what was it she told you? 4 "ANSWER: I would say, basically, that it was 5 him being retired. He was very -- oh, God, he was a 6 hyper personality. He would get restless and she 7 seemed to want to spend more time with him and they 8 were just trying to work that out because he kind of 9 always had, you know, had his things that he did. And 10 she wanted to do more together with him." 11 That was your answer three years ago? 12 A. I guess it was. 13 Q. And this was all a little fresher in your mind 14 three years ago than it is now? 15 A. Yes. I suppose she did tell me that. I 16 thought -- I was thinking maybe that I had just 17 observed that. 18 Q. And it was also obvious to you that they had 19 problems with communications, had communicating 20 problem? 21 A. At times, I think so, yes. 22 Q. And you can remember times when they had very 23 different opinions about things? 24 A. I can't remember specific things, but yes, they 25 had differences of opinions. PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1527 1 Q. Well, let's do this. The same page, you're 2 still on page 30. 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Are you with me? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Starting on Page 30 and going over to Page 31, 7 were these questions asked and were these your 8 answers? 9 "QUESTION: Did Mrs. Forsyth tell you that one 10 of their marital problems was the difficulty 11 communicating? 12 "ANSWER: She never really came right out and 13 said that, but it was somewhat obvious at times that 14 that was the problem. 15 "QUESTION: What did you see that made it 16 somewhat obvious that difficulty in communications was 17 a problem between Mr. and Mrs. Forsyth? 18 "ANSWER: I don't know so much if it was 19 communication. It was seeing eye to eye. They saw 20 things differently at times. 21 "QUESTION: Can you tell us about that, what 22 things they see differently? 23 "ANSWER: They had different opinions on 24 things, I can't be real specific, like any husband, 25 wife, really." PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1528 1 Those were your answers then? 2 A. Um-hum. 3 Q. Now, after they returned, and I think the 4 evidence is pretty well indicated now that on December 5 the 7th of 1992, they returned to Maui? 6 A. Um-hum. 7 Q. You remember that being about right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And after -- between this time of the return 10 and their deaths on March the 3rd of 1993, you became 11 aware that Bill Forsyth was suffering from depression; 12 isn't that true? 13 A. I was told by Bill or by June that he had been 14 diagnosed as clinically depressed. I hadn't observed 15 that he was depressed. 16 Q. Well, didn't you observe him seeming sad and 17 seeming withdrawn? 18 A. When he returned after he -- oh, yes. After 19 they got back? 20 Q. Yes, after they got back. 21 A. Yes, he was taking some medication then and 22 that's when I noticed it. 23 Q. Let's talk about this. Turn to Page 33. I'm 24 going to ask you to help refresh your recollection 25 here. Are you on Page 33 with me? PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1529 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And starting at Line 2. 3 "QUESTION: Did you know after they came back 4 to Maui in December of '92 and through the months of 5 January '93 and February of '93, that Mr. Forsyth was 6 suffering from depression? 7 "ANSWER: Yes, I had been told he was. 8 "Question: Now again, during this time frame, 9 January through early February of '93, based upon your 10 observations of Mr. Forsyth, did he appear to you to 11 be sad? 12 "ANSWER: At times, yes. 13 "QUESTION: Again, the same time frame. Did 14 Mr. Forsyth appear to you to be withdrawn? 15 "ANSWER: Yes, more withdrawn than sad. 16 "QUESTION: Was that contrary to his normal 17 personality. 18 "ANSWER: Absolutely. He was a very outgoing 19 person." Those were your answers at that time. 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And you never really noticed during that time 22 period, and I'm talking right through the time up 23 until he went to the hospital, that he was acting 24 nervous or anxious; isn't that correct? 25 A. He seemed -- PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1530 1 Q. Pardon me? 2 A. He seemed more quiet. 3 Q. Quiet and subdued? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Instead of being nervous or anxious, correct? 6 A. Right. 7 Q. And didn't June tell you that Bill Forsyth, Sr. 8 was feeling low self-worth during this period of 9 January and February of 1993? 10 A. Yes, I believe she did. 11 Q. I want to now go to this day that, I believe 12 February the 24th, the day that he went to Castle, and 13 he was at your home for at least a brief time on the 14 way to Castle. I think you've already told us that? 15 A. Um-hum. Yes. 16 Q. Now, isn't it true -- I mean, that was the very 17 last occasion that you saw Bill Forsyth, was it not? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And you can't really recall when it was that 20 you had last seen him before the day he went to 21 Castle, as far as a specific day? 22 A. No, not a specific day. I saw him several 23 times before that. 24 Q. Now, when Mr. and Mrs. Forsyth stepped to your 25 home -- stopped by your home that day, he appeared to PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1531 1 be very sedate and very quiet, did he not? 2 A. On the day they came? 3 Q. Yes. 4 A. The day they went to the hospital? 5 Q. Yes. 6 A. When I first saw him, he was quiet. 7 Q. I'd like you to turn to Page 11 of your 8 deposition. Would you look at the question that 9 starts on Line 9 and follow me along here. 10 A. Okay. 11 Q. And the question was asked to you by Mr. See 12 three years ago: 13 "QUESTION: How did Mr. Forsyth appear to you?" 14 And your answer was: "Let's see. He appeared very 15 sedate. Somewhat quiet. That's all. 16 "QUESTION: Did you speak with him? 17 "ANSWER: Yes, I did. 18 "QUESTION: What did you talk about? 19 "ANSWER: We talked about him going over to the 20 hospital. He was very thankful that we were helping 21 him and that he loved us all very much." 22 That was your answer at that time, correct? 23 A. Yes. He was like that, but I -- 24 Q. Thank you. I have one other question. 25 A. I remember his face also. PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1532 1 Q. But you didn't tell Mr. See that at the time, 2 did you? You didn't say anything at all three years 3 ago about any look in his eye, true? 4 A. Apparently not. 5 Q. And you didn't say anything about him holding 6 something in his hands? Is that correct? 7 A. No, but I'll never forget it. I'll never 8 forget that moment. I don't know why I didn't say it 9 in here, but I'll never forget his face that day. 10 Q. That's what you were being asked about three 11 years ago, wasn't it, to describe what you saw and 12 what he said to you, true? 13 A. True. You didn't ask me what his face looked 14 like. 15 Q. Now, I want to ask you about the day that 16 Mr. Forsyth came home from the hospital. You were 17 aware that your son Bill -- excuse me, that your 18 husband Bill, Jr. picked them up at the airport? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And they came back to your house initially; is 21 that true? 22 A. I didn't see them, no. 23 Q. Weren't you aware that when they came back to 24 your house, that Bill and his father -- your husband 25 Bill and his father went to a home across the street PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1533 1 to have a little talk? 2 A. Yes, they went across the street. 3 Q. You just didn't see them at that time? 4 A. No. I think they went directly to the house 5 across the street. I don't think they came into the 6 house. I never saw him. 7 Q. You never saw him inside your house? 8 A. No. 9 Q. But your husband Bill told you about the 10 conversation when they went across the street; is that 11 correct? 12 A. He told me that they had spent some time over 13 there talking, yes, about various different things. 14 Q. Just so your memory is fresh on this, let's 15 turn to Page 17 of your deposition. And we'll start 16 with the question on Line 1 of Page 17, and follow me 17 along and make sure I'm reading the questions and 18 answers correctly. 19 "QUESTION: One thing your husband said was 20 that he went with his parents across the street from 21 your home and met with them in the home of a friend 22 who happened to be away at the time. Do you remember 23 that?" 24 And your answer was: "Well, that's not 25 entirely correct. PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1534 1 "QUESTION: Okay. 2 "ANSWER: He only went with his father across 3 the street, I think. 4 "QUESTION: Why did they go across the street? 5 "ANSWER: To talk. 6 "QUESTION: Did June stay at your home? 7 "ANSWER: I don't remember her being there. 8 "QUESTION: Did you -- 9 "ANSWER: No, I didn't see her. 10 "QUESTION: Do you know what Bill and his dad 11 talked about when they went across the street from 12 your home? 13 "ANSWER: Yes. 14 "QUESTION: How do you know that? 15 "ANSWER: Bill told me. 16 "QUESTION: What did Bill tell you about that? 17 "ANSWER: He told me he talked about their life 18 growing up. He was concerned how he had been as a 19 father. 20 "QUESTION: That is Mr. Forsyth, Sr. was 21 concerned? 22 "ANSWER: Yeah." 23 That's basically what Bill told you of that 24 conversation between him and his father across the 25 street from your house? PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1535 1 A. That's all I remember him telling me about. 2 They had spoken several different things, but that was 3 the only specific subject I remember him telling me 4 about. 5 Q. And the important part of that was that Bill, 6 Sr. expressed concern as to whether he had been a good 7 father to Bill, Jr. while he was growing up? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And then after dinner, Bill, Jr. went over to 10 his parents' house and spent time with them -- 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. -- that evening? That's the night of March the 13 3rd, correct? 14 A. Right. 15 Q. And he told you that they talked about a lot of 16 things when he was with his parents that night? 17 A. Right. 18 Q. Including his business, Christianity, the 19 future? Those are things they talked about? 20 A. Some of the things, yes. Some of the things 21 that Bill had mentioned that they had talked about, 22 yes. I don't think he told me everything they talked 23 about. 24 Q. Did he tell you that Bill, Sr. was experiencing 25 some stress over property that he owned? In other PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1536 1 words, stress that he had had for some time and that 2 Bill, Jr. and June were trying to encourage him to 3 make some decision about that property? 4 A. Yes, he did. 5 Q. And did your husband tell you that Bill, Sr. 6 seemed very relaxed that evening and that he seemed 7 okay? 8 A. Yes. 9 MR. BURKE: Thank you. That's all I have. 10 MR. CHANG: Your Honor, I have no other 11 questions. No redirect. 12 THE COURT: Thank you. You're excused. 13 MR. VICKERY: You wish us to call our next 14 witness now, Your Honor? 15 THE COURT: Pardon me? 16 MR. VICKERY: Do you want us to call our next 17 witness now? 18 THE COURT: Yes. 19 MR. VICKERY: Okay. We call the plaintiff, 20 Susan Forsyth. 21 SUSAN FORSYTH, 22 the Plaintiff, after having been first duly sworn to 23 tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 24 truth, was examined and testified as follows: 25 THE CLERK: Please be seated. Please state PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1537 1 your name and spell your last. 2 THE WITNESS: My name is Susan Forsyth, 3 F-O-R-S-Y-T-H. 4 DIRECT EXAMINATION 5 BY MR. VICKERY: 6 Q. Good afternoon. 7 A. Good afternoon. 8 Q. Did you go with your brother to Indianapolis 9 when he went up and put the fliers on the cars at 10 Lilly headquarters? 11 A. No, I didn't. I chose not to do that and to 12 look into other forums to get the information out. 13 Q. Have you also been active in trying to get 14 information out to people about Prozac? 15 A. Yes. I've been involved with a website and an 16 800 number and information packets and mailings. 17 Q. Are you embarrassed or ashamed about that at 18 all? 19 A. Absolutely not. 20 Q. Ms. Forsyth, let's back up a little bit and get 21 a little family history here, and we'll try not to 22 plow over territory that's been covered adequately by 23 others. How old are you? 24 A. I'm 34. 25 Q. Where did you grow up? PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1538 1 A. In Malibu, California. 2 Q. Did you go to high school there? 3 A. I went to Santa Monica High School. 4 Q. Now, you're about, what, four years junior to 5 your brother? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Tell us, if you would, your recollections of 8 your family life growing up. 9 A. I felt very fortunate. I think I had a 10 wonderful family life. My dad was around all the 11 time. My mother was around. Weekends, we travelled. 12 We spent time together. We had dinners together. I 13 felt blessed. I had a great family life. 14 Q. When you finished high school, did you go on to 15 pursue a career in college? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Where did you go to school? 18 A. I went to UCLA. 19 Q. And did you graduate from UCLA? 20 A. Yeah, I graduated with a bachelor's in 21 mechanical engineering. 22 Q. And are you a mechanical engineer? 23 A. I'm not practicing as an engineer now, no. 24 Q. Have you used your engineering education and 25 background? PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1539 1 A. I was in the engineering field for about five 2 years. 3 Q. Now, we've heard some testimony about your 4 parents and their view about your brother hookin' it 5 down here in Hawaii to live in Hawaii. You chose a 6 different path, obviously? 7 A. Yeah. 8 Q. How did your parents feel about your 9 educational goals and accomplishments? 10 A. They were very supportive and they thought it 11 was wonderful, and they kind of threw it around and 12 were being proud about it. 13 Q. Tell us, were you sort of closer to one of your 14 parents than the other? 15 A. I would say I felt really, really close to my 16 father. 17 Q. Is that for your entire life? 18 A. No. I think probably sometime in about high 19 school and later. 20 Q. That's when you got close? 21 A. I felt closer when I became an adult. 22 Q. Now, what was your relationship with your 23 mother like? 24 A. I thought it was a very good relationship. The 25 way I look at things is they were two of my best PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1540 1 friends and my mom is who I confided in as a woman and 2 about religion and my belief as a Christian, and also 3 my father was -- he was like a good friend, a buddy, 4 and he helped me with business, and I got involved 5 with the family property and we were kind of like 6 partners and things. And like I said earlier, I had a 7 wonderful family life and they were both -- I 8 considered them good friends that I would speak to 9 several times a week. 10 Q. We've heard so much about religion in this 11 trial. Your memories growing up, did your family go 12 as an entire family together to church? 13 A. I do remember on like Christmas Eve type 14 things, that we would go as a whole family. I started 15 going to church probably when I was in elementary 16 school with my brother and my mother, and we would -- 17 as a family, my father would pray at dinner time and 18 he was -- 19 Q. Stop. Wait a minute. Did your mother force 20 him to do that, to say grace before you ate dinner? 21 A. No. It was fairly common for him to do that, 22 to talk about God and to pray and to bless the food. 23 Q. In your lifetime ever, did you ever see your 24 mother overtly pressure your father about religion? 25 A. I never saw that. Never. PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1541 1 Q. Okay. Now, when -- you've mentioned the family 2 business. At some point, your father retired from his 3 auto business. Were you ever in that portion of the 4 business with him? 5 A. No. 6 Q. In addition to that, did he own some apartments 7 or other real estate investments? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And did you become active in helping him with 10 those things? 11 A. I did become fairly active and even more so 12 when they moved to Maui. 13 Q. How did that come to be that you got involved? 14 A. Well, it all started back when Bill and I were 15 kids and we would do some of the cutting and the 16 landscaping around the one apartment building we had 17 at the time that was fairly close to where we lived. 18 That was our first exposure to it. But I did get 19 involved with it more so after high school, when I was 20 in college, with some of the management aspects and 21 remodeling specifics about running the property. 22 Q. Is that something that was forced on you by 23 either of your parents? 24 A. No. It was something, actually, I took an 25 interest in and I liked helping them out, too. PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1542 1 Q. And you mentioned it became more active when 2 they moved to Maui. Before we get to that point, your 3 father, I believe, retired around '86; is that 4 correct? 5 A. That's what I recall, from the car rental 6 business. 7 Q. Well, from '86 to '90, until he moved to Maui, 8 what did you observe insofar as his level of activity, 9 his adjustment to retirement? 10 A. He was around more and he was involved with the 11 property with me and doing his hobbies, and I thought 12 he was -- nothing stood out that he was having a 13 really hard time particularly. He was making 14 adjustments. He was changing what he did every day. 15 Q. Did you ever hear him say or see him do 16 anything that made you think, oh, boy, he's not 17 dealing with retirement very well at all? 18 A. No. During that time, I didn't see anything 19 like that. 20 Q. Okay. Now, I want to move you up to 1990 and 21 the move to Maui. How did you learn that your parents 22 were going to move to Maui? 23 A. I learned from them that they were -- they had 24 a condo before over on Maui and they would visit a 25 lot, and they had -- actually, I had an opportunity to PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1543 1 use the condominium that they had already, and at that 2 point, they were pursuing building a home, possibly a 3 spec home, and they both decided they'd like to move 4 there and give it a try, to actually live there and 5 sell the house they had in the desert, and that's 6 where -- they moved all our furniture and belongings 7 from the desert home to the Maui house. 8 Q. The way it was presented to you, was there any 9 conflict between your parents about the move to Maui, 10 one wanting to go, the other not? 11 A. I don't recall anything specific that stood out 12 of my mother or father resisting the idea. I think 13 they both came to an agreement on it. 14 Q. What did they share with you insofar as their 15 reason for that move? 16 A. I think they wanted to move to Maui, a 17 beautiful place. They had an opportunity to building 18 a home and they could be around the grandkids, and my 19 father didn't really have -- he didn't have his 20 business anymore, his car business obligation, so they 21 were free to do that, to do something new. 22 Q. Was there something about that move that caused 23 you to become more involved in the management of the 24 family properties in California? 25 A. Yeah, of course, because my father was in PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1544 1 another state and I became more directly involved with 2 everything here, or everything on the Mainland in 3 California, the real estate there. 4 Q. Now, we have heard some testimony and seen some 5 journal entries and other things about there being 6 some disagreement between your parents in the fall of 7 '92 about the burdens that were being placed on you. 8 My question to you is, were you aware, in the fall of 9 '92, that your parents were having a disagreement 10 about your role in managing the properties? 11 A. I don't think -- I didn't observe any 12 disagreements. When they did bring that up with me, 13 and they were both, I recall in December, before they 14 went back, probably just a few days, at my residence 15 there with me speaking about various things, and they 16 brought up, you know, "You're doing so much. You're 17 getting worn out too much. Is it too much for you to 18 manage the property? We don't want you to do it if it 19 is, because we want you to be happy and enjoy life and 20 you don't have to do it," and that was both my 21 parents, you know, basically saying, "How are you 22 doing? Do we need to, you know, unload your life a 23 little bit, because you're working so hard." 24 Q. And what did you say? 25 A. I guess stubbornly, at the time, I said, "I'm PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1545 1 fine and I do enjoy it," and I was willing to be 2 practicing engineering and managing their property 3 like I had, you know, prior to that. 4 Q. As a person managing the property, did you have 5 control of the income from that property? 6 A. Yes. I was running all the deposits and paying 7 all the bills and had the signing authority to the 8 accounts that pertained to all the properties. 9 Q. Did your brother ever have his hand in the 10 cookie jar there managing the family property? 11 A. No, he didn't. 12 Q. Did he have any access to that money from 13 that -- from those properties? 14 A. No. Those accounts, he didn't have any signing 15 authority. 16 Q. The reason I ask that, obviously, is you were 17 here Friday to hear the testimony of Dr. Neal, were 18 you not, that your father -- he says your father said 19 something about June and Bill trying to take over 20 financial affairs. Were you here for that? 21 A. Yeah, I heard that. 22 Q. Ms. Forsyth, if your father said that, okay, if 23 your father said that, give us your perspective on it. 24 A. I don't understand why he would say that. It 25 would seem like he didn't know what he was talking PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1546 1 about. He was kind of out of touch with things, out 2 of touch with reality. 3 Q. Okay. 4 MR. SEE: Well, Your Honor, I object to the 5 witness' last statement as calling for an expert 6 opinion and move to strike it. 7 MR. VICKERY: Your Honor, I would submit that 8 that qualifies under Rule 701. She certainly had the 9 foundation for such an opinion as a lay witness under 10 Rule 701. 11 THE COURT: Well, I'll strike the statement 12 about reality. 13 MR. VICKERY: Okay. 14 THE COURT: Let's take a 15-minute break. 15 Please be back at quarter to three. 16 (Whereupon, a recess was at 2:33 p.m.) 17 THE COURT: Please proceed, Mr. Vickery. 18 MR. VICKERY: Thank you, Your Honor. 19 Q. Ms. Forsyth, let's talk about the summer of 20 1991 when your parents had a separation for a period 21 of time. 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Were you living in California when your father 24 left here and went to the Mainland? 25 A. Yes, I was. PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1547 1 Q. Did you know before he got there that he was 2 coming? 3 A. Actually, I didn't. 4 Q. Did they have a place there? Did he maintain 5 an apartment or some other place that he could stay 6 when he went? 7 A. No, they didn't maintain an apartment. 8 Q. How did you learn that your father was there on 9 the Mainland? 10 A. From him. 11 Q. Okay. We haven't really talked very much about 12 the '91 time period. How long did he stay over there, 13 if you recall? 14 A. I think that was just a few weeks. My 15 recollection was it wasn't a very long period of time. 16 Q. Well, tell us how you learned and what you 17 learned when you first did learn that they were 18 separated. 19 A. In '91 or '92? 20 Q. '91 right now. 21 A. Well, actually, in the '91 period, it was -- my 22 perception of time was it was a -- my father was 23 taking advantage, through the separation, with 24 business on the Mainland, so it was like a pseudo 25 business trip, pseudo issues with our mother. PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1548 1 Q. Okay. And so what did he tell you about it, 2 anything? 3 A. You know, I don't recall him -- in '91, I don't 4 recall a lot of detail. 5 Q. How about from your mom, did you discuss it 6 with her in '91? 7 A. I don't recall any lengthy discussion about it 8 that stood out. 9 Q. Okay. Let's move forward now to '92. When 10 your father comes over in '92, as I recall, that's 11 about sometime in July; is that correct? 12 A. Right. July. 13 Q. Do you know about that before he lands on the 14 Mainland? 15 A. No, I didn't. 16 Q. How did you learn and when did you learn? 17 A. I learned from my father when he got here. 18 Q. Did he call you on the telephone? 19 A. Yeah, I believe that's how he originally 20 contacted me that he was on the Mainland. 21 Q. And where did he stay when he first got there? 22 A. When he first got here, he stayed with me. 23 Q. In your apartment or house or what? 24 A. It was actually in the house that I was living 25 in, which was their house that they had moved from in PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1549 1 Malibu when they moved to Maui, and I was residing 2 there after they moved to Maui. 3 Q. Okay. So you're the mistress of the house, and 4 all of a sudden, your dad's back there, right? 5 A. Right. 6 Q. How long did he actually stay in the house 7 there with you in the summer of '92? 8 A. I think it was about two weeks. 9 Q. How much did he share with you about his 10 reasons for leaving or his concerns about the 11 marriage? 12 A. Well, I got a chance to see him in the morning 13 because we were both coffee drinkers and that's when 14 we talked. And I was working as an engineer at the 15 time, so I got up every morning and went to work, and 16 he had expressed that he left because of issues with 17 mom, and he expressed to me, he said, "I love your 18 mom. That's not an issue. There's no one else," and 19 he wanted things to be like they used to be. He 20 wanted things to be better between she and him and 21 there were issues he was concerned with. 22 Q. Now, if I'm correct on my math, you were, what, 23 27 years old then? 24 A. Twenty-six. 25 Q. Twenty-six in the summer of '92? PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1550 1 A. Yeah. 2 Q. Did your father, in discussing his concerns 3 about his marriage with your mother, use the D word? 4 A. Actually, he never used that. He just made the 5 statement, he didn't know if he could work things out 6 with our mother so that they could be together again. 7 Q. Okay. Now, did you and he just have one 8 morning coffee discussion about it or did you discuss 9 it more than once over the two weeks that he was there 10 with you? 11 A. I was very concerned, so it was something that 12 I wanted to talk about, and we did talk about it on 13 more than one occasion. I wanted to understand what 14 was going on. 15 Q. Did you get on the horn and talk to your mother 16 about it? 17 A. I did talk to my mom as well over the phone. 18 Q. And what did she tell you about it? 19 A. She -- it was along the same lines, that there 20 was issues that they had to work on, but she was -- 21 she was more hopeful and optimistic. In other words, 22 she didn't place as much of a concern when she talked 23 about the fact that there were issues. It wasn't as 24 weighty to her as it was to my father. So she was 25 thinking things weren't possibly as bad; whereas, my PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1551 1 father was upset about issues, and felt that he needed 2 to pursue looking into dealing with them. 3 Q. Susan, let me back up a minute to the summer of 4 '91 when the first separation happened. There's going 5 to be other testimony and there are medical records in 6 there about your mother being depressed in August of 7 1991 and seeing a psychiatrist three times for that. 8 Were you aware of that at the time? 9 A. No, I was not aware of it. 10 Q. And did either of your parents share with you 11 their private journals, that are in evidence for the 12 jury to see, during their lifetimes? 13 A. No, they didn't share those. 14 Q. Okay. Back to '92 now. After the couple of 15 weeks staying at the family home there, where did your 16 father move? 17 A. He rented an apartment in El Segundo. 18 Q. Why El Segundo? 19 A. El Segundo because one of his good friends 20 lived there, and he was able to spend time with him 21 and share an office there in El Segundo. We had a 22 property there, so he was already familiar with the 23 town and it appealed to him, and actually, it was 24 really close to where he had his car rental company by 25 LAX. It was an adjoining neighborhood, so it was PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1552 1 actually a neighborhood he had, for years and years 2 and years, gone to work in when he had his business. 3 Q. Now, how far is El Segundo from Malibu, where 4 you were living? 5 A. It's about a half hour's drive if there's not 6 really bad traffic. 7 Q. In the period of time from when your father 8 moved out of your house until your mother joined him 9 in mid or late October, how frequently would you 10 either see or talk to your father? 11 A. During that time, probably I would two to three 12 times a week perhaps. I would talk to him on the 13 phone, and we went out to dinner a couple times. And 14 he also had asked me if he could go to church with me, 15 and he went on -- probably about four or five Sundays, 16 he went to church with me, too. 17 Q. Okay. Now, same question with respect to your 18 mother. In this period of time, when your father is 19 in El Segundo and your mother is down on Maui, how 20 frequently were you talking to her? 21 A. Probably, maybe a little bit less. I probably 22 communicated with her about twice a week. 23 Q. Were you aware of the fact that in September, 24 starting on September the 18th, 1992, your father 25 sought professional help from Tom Brady? PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1553 1 A. Yes, I was aware of that. 2 Q. Your father shared that with you at the time? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And did he give periodic reports of the 5 progress of his individual therapy with Dr. Brady 6 between September the 18th and October the 29th, when 7 your mother joined him? 8 A. I don't have a precise recollection of him 9 reporting back what was coming out from the therapy. 10 I know that he was very optimistic about it and he was 11 going very regularly, and he had expressed to me that 12 he really had connected with Tom Brady, and he was 13 very happy about that. He expressed that he felt that 14 he was really listening and taking notes and he was 15 feeling like something was happening, that he was 16 making progress, and that Tom was really working with 17 him and helping him and something was being 18 accomplished. 19 Q. Did he say anything to you, "he," your father, 20 about the fact that he had invited your mother to come 21 and stay with him there and go to the joint sessions? 22 A. Yeah, I was aware that she was coming out. 23 Q. You knew before she came? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. What was his attitude about that? PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1554 1 A. He was in favor of it. He was optimistic. 2 Q. What was her attitude about that? 3 A. She was very interested and looking forward to 4 it. 5 Q. When she arrived, did they live in the 6 apartment there in El Segundo together? 7 A. Yes, both of them. 8 Q. And what was the nature of your contact with 9 them from mid October until December the 7th, I think, 10 when they actually left and came back to Maui? 11 A. When my mom came out, there was some contact, 12 and then they got busy. They were going to the 13 counseling a lot, and then they actually started doing 14 some traveling. They went -- I recall they went up to 15 Reno and Northern California and the coast and then 16 they went down to Palm Springs and they were looking 17 at homes. And then I got a call from my dad when they 18 were in Palm Springs. 19 Q. Tell us about that call. What did your father 20 say when he and your mother were at Palm Springs? 21 A. He called and said they were in Palm Springs 22 and that they were looking at homes, and I thought 23 that was really neat because we did have a home there. 24 And so I was asking where they were looking, in what 25 areas, and then I go, "Well, how are you and mom PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1555 1 doing?" And he -- excuse me. 2 Q. It's okay. Take your time. 3 A. My father said -- he goes, "Everything's 4 great." And he said it was like a second honeymoon. 5 I was really happy. 6 Q. Take a minute to get your breath, Susan, and 7 then I'll go on. 8 A. And then I saw them both, I think it was just a 9 few days before they went back to Maui, at the house, 10 the Malibu house where I was living, and they were 11 both sitting on the sofa next to each other, and at 12 that time, they were talking about buying a house in 13 the desert and that they were thinking about not 14 living on Maui fully all the time, part time. 15 And they also talked about, as I mentioned 16 before, their concern if I was working too much. They 17 talked about that they were -- both of them, that they 18 said they wanted to pursue another church. They want 19 to look into another church, and they were just really 20 happy. It was really wonderful to see them. They 21 were side by side and they were both smiling and 22 joking around about me and the guy I was dating at the 23 time and everything. And they were real open and 24 happy and we were talking about sex, and they were 25 talking about they got married after six weeks and PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1556 1 they were intimate before they got married. 2 Q. As they talked to you about your own 3 relationships, I guess to be blunt about it, were your 4 parents trying to marry you off? Were they saying, 5 Susan, find a guy, get married? 6 A. No. They were just basically -- in the 7 Christian belief system, it's something that is 8 supposed to be held for marriage. And we were talking 9 about -- I was dating a guy by the name of Patrick, 10 and they were saying, you know, you should enjoy life 11 and don't work so hard, and that issue came up 12 about -- 13 Q. Okay. Well, I don't want to delve into your 14 private life about that. Did you come over to Hawaii 15 for Christmas holidays with your family? 16 A. Yeah. I would come over for, usually, either 17 Christmas or Thanksgiving. 18 Q. And which was it -- well, actually, they didn't 19 come back here until after Thanksgiving, right -- 20 A. Right. 21 Q. -- in '92. 22 A. Right. 23 Q. Did you come for December the 25th or for 24 Christmas season in 1992? 25 A. No. I was not here. PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1557 1 Q. Susan, after your parents left on December the 2 7th, did you ever see either one of them alive again? 3 A. No. 4 Q. You talked to them though? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. All right. Let's talk about that. Did you 7 talk to them in the month of January? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Did either of them share with you the religious 10 experience your father had in January? 11 A. I believe it was my mother that shared it in 12 January. 13 Q. What did she tell you? 14 A. That our father had accepted Christ as his 15 Savior. 16 Q. Okay. From that point until their deaths, did 17 you ever see a hint of any religious strife or 18 pressure between your parents? 19 MR. SEE: I would just object, Your Honor. 20 Ms. Forsyth has said that she didn't see her parents 21 after that time. 22 MR. VICKERY: Counsel is absolutely right. 23 THE COURT: You better rephrase. 24 MR. VICKERY: Let me rephrase it. 25 Q. Did you ever hear anything to indicate that PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1558 1 there was any religious strife or disagreements 2 between your father and your mother from the time your 3 mother told you that until their deaths? 4 A. No, I didn't. 5 Q. How frequently did you talk to them in January 6 and February of 1993? 7 A. I would say two or three times a week. 8 Q. And would you usually talk to one or both of 9 them? 10 A. It was usually -- most of the time, it was one 11 or the other. 12 Q. Okay. Let me take you forward to February the 13 24th, 1993. Tell us when and how you learned that 14 your father was either going to the hospital or in the 15 hospital. 16 A. My recollection was that I learned the 17 following day, the 25th. I was out of town, I think, 18 about four days, through the 24th, so I learned about 19 it on the 25th. 20 Q. Who told you? 21 A. I believe -- I actually believe I -- I think I 22 had spoken with Kim, Bill's wife. That's who comes to 23 mind. 24 Q. Okay. Do you recall what she told you? 25 A. At that time, it was -- I think the feeling was PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1559 1 that it was that he had wanted to go to the hospital 2 and it was problems with the medication. That's what 3 was conveyed to me, that he needed help with the 4 medication and that the hospital would be the place 5 with the supervision to do that. 6 Q. Okay. Did you actually talk to your father or 7 your mother during the time that he was in Castle 8 Medical Center? 9 A. Yes, I did. 10 Q. And being the engineer that you are, can you 11 tell us, based on your own phone records, what days 12 you talked to them and how many minutes you talked to 13 them? 14 A. I believe it was Friday the 26th, I spoke with 15 my mother. I spoke to her almost two hours and it was 16 a lengthy discussion about the concern about my 17 father, about the family, and it's one of these kind 18 of, you know, what's on your mind. Let's talk about 19 things. How do you feel? What's upsetting you? It 20 was wonderful. I mean, looking back, I mean, I 21 cherish it, that I had that opportunity. 22 Q. How about your dad, did you talk to him? 23 A. I did. I called him. I spoke to him, I think 24 it was on the same day. Yeah, I spoke to him on the 25 same day, in the evening and about 17 minutes, PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1560 1 according to my phone records. It was right before 2 dinner time, and when I spoke to him, he was just 3 really, really quiet and different. I was really 4 confused. And I just wanted to assure him that I 5 loved him and that he would be okay. And he said, 6 yes, but he just wasn't my dad, and he insisted that 7 he had to go because it was dinner time, so I started 8 to cry on the phone. 9 Q. I'm sorry, I didn't hear that. 10 A. I started to cry. 11 Q. You cried when you were on the phone with him? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Why? 14 A. Because he wasn't my happy dad, my upbeat dad, 15 you know, and then the fact that he was insisting that 16 he had to go to dinner and I wanted to talk to him. 17 It just kind of seemed like he was somewhere else. 18 Q. So he wanted to get off the phone with you to 19 go to dinner at the hospital? 20 A. Right. 21 Q. Now, Susan, in your entire life, had you ever 22 had the experience of your father being in the 23 hospital? 24 A. Never. 25 Q. And was that conversation you had with him PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1561 1 there on that day different, did he sound different 2 from the conversations that you had had in January and 3 February up to that point? 4 A. He never sounded like that before, ever. Never 5 had that demeanor. And then I -- I talked to my 6 mother later and I was really upset and I told her how 7 upset I was, and she still had so much faith that 8 things were fine and that he was getting good care and 9 he'd be okay. And then she must have told my dad, 10 because Saturday the next morning, my dad called and 11 left a message. He said, "I'm sorry I upset you. 12 Everything is fine. Don't worry. I'm sorry, I didn't 13 mean to upset you." And then at that time, he sounded 14 more like my dad the way he spoke, and more upbeat. 15 So there was a change. 16 Q. So he left that message on your recorder? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Did you ever have a chance to talk to your 19 father again? 20 A. No, I didn't. 21 Q. And did you ever have a chance to talk to your 22 mother again? 23 A. I don't believe I did, no. 24 Q. Okay. Want to take a sip? I need to ask you 25 some hard questions. PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1562 1 A. Yeah. 2 Q. I want you to try, as best you can, and I know 3 this is very hard for you, but to put into words so 4 that we can understand your feelings, the loss that 5 you feel as a result of the deaths of your parents. 6 And there are several categories under the law I need 7 to ask you about. The first is love and affection. 8 Can you put it in words for us? 9 A. I've lost two of my best friends. I lost a lot 10 of support and an immense amount of love and affection 11 that was there for me all the time up to that point. 12 Q. Were your parents a comfort to you? 13 A. They were a huge comfort. In life, it's really 14 nice to actually have someone you can call up when 15 you're having a hard time, be it emotionally or 16 business matters. Like I said before, my mom was -- I 17 confided in as a woman, as my mother, and she was -- 18 she's always so supportive and loving, and my father 19 was always supporting and helped me with understanding 20 business and with actually going out into the world 21 and dealing with my finances and business 22 relationships, and he pretty much taught me everything 23 I know. It's been a huge loss. I think I've -- I 24 still don't think I'm out of it. It's going to be 25 with me forever. PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1563 1 Q. Susan, I want to ask you about the future. You 2 have a boyfriend now, Doug, right? 3 A. Right. 4 Q. And he's been here with you for your support 5 this week, has he not? 6 A. Yes, he has. 7 Q. I think right now, he's gone to take your 8 sister-in-law to the airport, but has he been here in 9 your courtroom? 10 A. Yes, he has. 11 Q. And how long have you and he been dating? 12 A. Six months, about. 13 Q. Do you ever look forward and think about, in 14 anticipation, your wedding day? 15 A. I do. One of the things that hurts most is 16 that I can't share my parents with anyone else. My 17 future husband, my family, my future children will 18 never meet my parents, will never know them, and I 19 will never have these two wonderful people in their 20 life. It is just -- it is so unfair. 21 MR. VICKERY: I'm sorry to put you through 22 that. I pass the witness. 23 THE COURT: Mr. See. 24 MR. SEE: Thank you, Your Honor. 25 CROSS-EXAMINATION PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1564 1 BY MR. SEE: 2 Q. Mrs. Forsyth. 3 A. Can you give me a moment to collect myself, 4 please? 5 Q. I sure will. Just take all the time you need. 6 A. All right. 7 Q. I do need to ask you some questions, but I'll 8 make them as brief as I can. I want to ask you about 9 your father after he retired and moved to Maui. He 10 had some changes in his life that he was having a hard 11 time dealing with at that time, isn't that right, 12 after he moved to Maui? 13 A. Yes, the change of moving to Maui. 14 Q. One of the changes that he was having a hard 15 time with, again, after his move to Maui, was that he 16 was at home, at his home, being around the house more, 17 something he was not used to in his working life? 18 A. Yes, but he was retired earlier in '86. 19 Q. Mr. Vickery asked you a question about your 20 mother and depression, and if I could just ask a 21 couple more questions about that. By your own 22 observation, your mother had had a problem with 23 recurring bouts of depression; isn't that right? 24 A. From my own personal witness, is that what 25 you're asking me, or my awareness of? PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1565 1 Q. Well, let's just ask, you're aware of that? 2 A. I'm aware that she did have depression at one 3 point or another, yes. 4 Q. Did you know, Ms. Forsyth, at the time, that 5 your mother had one of the recurring bouts of 6 depression during the time she was on Maui? 7 A. What time are you referring to on Maui? 8 Q. Any time on Maui. 9 A. Actually, no, I wasn't aware of that. 10 Q. Now, if I could, with respect to your father, 11 from the time period of, say, October, November of 12 '92, he was in Los Angeles during that time, right? 13 A. Right. Correct. 14 Q. I want to ask you from that time period on 15 until you last had contact with him. After October of 16 '92, there were times when you observed your father 17 being uneasy; is that correct? 18 A. I would say, yes. 19 Q. And one of the things that you observed 20 yourself in telephone calls with your father, again, 21 we're referring to the same time period, was that he 22 was displaying an uneasiness about his real estate 23 dealings that he just had not displayed before; isn't 24 that right? 25 A. I believe I put it that he came across more PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1566 1 worried about some of the affairs we were dealing with 2 with the property. 3 Q. And, again, going to the same time frame, what 4 was unusual about that is that your father was 5 displaying a lack of confidence, which was out of 6 character for him; is that right? 7 A. Yes, I would say that would -- you could draw 8 that from that. 9 Q. And this lack of confidence was unusual and, 10 for your father, was a real personality change; isn't 11 that right? 12 A. You're speaking during that same time or are 13 you talking about January? 14 Q. Well, I'm talking about from the time frame of 15 October, November '92 and going into January and early 16 February of '93. 17 A. These particular events you're referring to 18 fell later in the January, February time frame. 19 Q. All right. So the real personality change that 20 you observed in your father was in the January to 21 early February '93 time period; is that correct? 22 A. Yes, more or less. 23 Q. And you had described your father again, and 24 specifically during the time January '93, 25 February '93, up to the time that he took Prozac, I'm PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1567 1 asking you about the time period before he took Prozac 2 in January and February of '93, you had described your 3 father during that period, again before he took 4 Prozac, as mentally, he was struggling; is that right? 5 A. I believe I did make that description. 6 Q. Now, after your parents went back to Maui in 7 early December of '92, your mother told you that she 8 was perplexed at your father's behavioral changes; 9 isn't that right? 10 A. I don't recall her saying that she was 11 perplexed at his behavioral changes. 12 Q. Okay. Let's wait one second. 13 MR. SEE: If I can have just one moment, Your 14 Honor. 15 If I might approach, Your Honor, I have 16 deposition transcripts for Ms. Forsyth's reference. 17 THE COURT: Okay. 18 Q (By Mr. See) If I could ask you to look at 19 the first volume of your deposition, ma'am, at 20 Page 75. And I want to specifically ask you about the 21 questions beginning at Line 3, and I want to ask you 22 if, at your deposition, you were asked these questions 23 and did you give these answers? 24 "QUESTION: How else did your mother describe 25 your dad in terms of how he appeared or what he did or PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1568 1 what he said? 2 "ANSWER: In regards to? 3 "QUESTION: Being depressed. 4 "ANSWER: She said that he didn't have enough 5 to do, that she was perplexed, kind of, too, about why 6 he was -- had a behavioral change, and she believed 7 that counseling was a very effective tool to deal with 8 things from depression to any other issues he was 9 challenged through life, and I think she just wanted 10 him to get more involved with things in general, keep 11 busy and be active. 12 "And he was down because he wasn't -- he didn't 13 display the same personality, which was more of a very 14 down to earth, funny kind of guy, joked around, very 15 self-motivated, had lots of interest in things, so he 16 didn't have his nature about him. His normal nature. 17 And your mother relating this to you -- 18 "QUESTION: And your mother relating this to 19 you, was she -- was she telling you that he was not of 20 his normal personality and related that to being 21 depressed? 22 "ANSWER: Yeah, you could say that. That's 23 what we were feeling at the time, that he was in a 24 depressed mood." 25 Do you remember giving those answers, ma'am? PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1569 1 A. Yes, I do. 2 Q. Now, before your father became ill with 3 depression, you had known him to be a person who had a 4 lot of self-confidence? 5 A. Yes, I think he would. 6 Q. And after he became depressed, that 7 self-confidence, I think you described it as having 8 given way to inexplicable anxiety? 9 A. Is that how I described it? I don't think I 10 was saying inexplicable anxiety in reference to 11 talking about his self-confidence. I think it was in 12 reference to what we talked about earlier, that he was 13 more worried about affairs falling through than I had 14 noticed him ever before because I'm managing property 15 and dialoged with him very often about real estate 16 matters. 17 Q. Now, from your observation and from information 18 that you got from your mom and your brother, it would 19 be true that from the time your father returned to 20 Maui on December 7, 1992, up to the time of his death, 21 he had become more and more withdrawn? 22 A. I believe that's withdrawn twofold, as far as 23 not being as active, that he was around the house 24 more. I would put the term withdrawn to. I don't 25 know how other people use that word. And the other PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1570 1 term was in reference when I talked to him on the 2 phone in Castle, which was a different kind of 3 withdrawn. 4 Q. Again, have you described the way your father 5 changed, that after he had returned to Maui in early 6 December of '92, that the spark was gone from his 7 normal self, his essence, his character had lost its 8 spark? 9 A. I did make that comment in trying to explain 10 January and February in hindsight. 11 Q. Now, even after your mother and father returned 12 together to Maui in December of '92, it is your 13 understanding that your father continued to have a 14 problem experiencing loneliness? 15 A. I think that my personal account to that was 16 when he was -- when he had left and he was in L.A., 17 and I thought that was natural, but I think 18 afterwards, after they passed away, that was something 19 that came out from the notes, the counseling notes, 20 but I wasn't aware of loneliness. 21 Q. Okay. Let me ask you, then, about your 22 understanding from what you have learned. Your 23 understanding is that after your mother and father 24 returned to Maui in early December '92, that your 25 father continued to have a problem with loneliness? PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1571 1 A. It's been discussed here, but I wouldn't say 2 that was the case, what I observed from talking to my 3 father and my mother, that that was an issue after 4 they went back. 5 Q. Okay. Can I ask you to look at Page 280, that 6 would be of the second volume of your deposition. And 7 I want to refer you to Line 23 on Page 280. Were you 8 asked this question and gave this answer? 9 A. Excuse me, what line? 10 Q. I'm sorry. It starts at Line 23. 11 "QUESTION: So what I'm asking you, even after 12 his return to Maui on December 7 of 1992, is it your 13 understanding that your father was continuing to have 14 a problem with loneliness? 15 "ANSWER: It is my understanding that he was 16 experiencing loneliness after they returned on 17 December 7, '93 to Maui -- or excuse me, '92." 18 Now, did you give your answer at that 19 deposition, ma'am? 20 A. I probably feel that I didn't answer that 21 correctly at the time, that particular question. It 22 was unclear to me. 23 Q. Could you just tell us, though, is that the 24 answer that you gave? 25 A. At this time, three years ago, yeah, that was PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1572 1 the answer I gave, I think. 2 Q. Now, from what you observed yourself and from 3 what your family members told you, would it be correct 4 that as of December '92 and thereafter, your father 5 was having feelings that he had no purpose and no 6 direction in his life? 7 A. Can you restate that question, please? 8 Q. Sure. From what you observed and from what 9 your mother and brother and other family members told 10 you, is it correct that as of December of 1992 and 11 thereafter, your father was having feelings that he 12 had no purpose and no direction in his life? 13 A. The only knowledge I have about that was 14 through the counseling notes, and I think that was -- 15 those came out in January and February, but I didn't 16 hear that from my mother or my brother or directly 17 from my father. 18 Q. All right. Can I ask you to turn to Page 281 19 of your deposition, please. That would be in Volume 20 II, and I refer you to Line 12. Did -- 21 MR. VICKERY: Excuse me, Mr. See. 22 MR. SEE: Sure. 23 MR. VICKERY: Let me get that. Okay. 24 Q (By Mr. See) Were you asked this question and 25 gave this answer: PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1573 1 "QUESTION: There is an indication of, again, 2 describing your father as having, as of 12/16/92, no 3 purpose and no direction. Based upon your observation 4 and information gathered from family members, is it 5 your understanding that your father was feeling that 6 he had no purpose and no direction as of 12/16 of '92? 7 "ANSWER: Yes. I believe that I would qualify, 8 that's what my father was experiencing at that time, 9 thereabouts, that time or at that time." 10 Did you give that answer, ma'am? 11 A. Yes, I did. 12 Q. Now, I'd like to bring you forward in time a 13 little bit to about the end of January of '93. Is it 14 correct that, at that time, your mother had told you 15 that your father had become dependent upon her because 16 of his mental struggle? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And did she also tell you, at that time, that 19 your father had become fearful not to have someone by 20 his side? 21 A. Yes. I believe he wanted her there while he 22 was under these medications. 23 Q. And during the same time period, that is, the 24 end of January of '93, did your mother also tell you 25 that your father had indicated that he felt trapped PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1574 1 because of his emotional and his mental condition? 2 A. Can you repeat that question? You say my -- 3 Q. Surely. During the same period, that is, the 4 end of January '93, did you learn from your mother 5 that your father was having feelings of feeling 6 trapped because of his emotional and mental condition? 7 A. I don't recall her telling me that. 8 Q. All right. Could I refer you to your 9 deposition at 291, and for the context, I'll start at 10 Line 15. 11 MR. VICKERY: Hang on a minute, please, sir. 12 MR. SEE: Sure. 13 Q. At Line 15, the question is, and were you asked 14 this question and did you give this answer: 15 "On January 25 of 1993, Dr. Roberts also 16 records in his chart that your father indicated that 17 he had a trapped feeling. The question is, did you 18 ever hear your father say that? 19 "ANSWER: I don't believe that he said that 20 specifically to me. 21 "QUESTION: Do you have any information from 22 other family members that he said that or that they 23 perceived he felt that way? 24 "ANSWER: I believe that my mother, through 25 discussions with her, perceived or commented that he PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1575 1 felt trapped because of his emotional, mental 2 capacity, that he wasn't himself and able to be out 3 and in life and community as he was prior. So he was 4 spending a lot of time around the house, feeling 5 cooped up and lonely, not being exposed to his friends 6 as much, perhaps, so I think that that would -- the 7 idea of trapped would fall under that situation." 8 Was that your answer at the time of your 9 deposition, ma'am? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Now, referring to the same time period, the end 12 of January of '93, is it correct that your mother also 13 told you that your father had displayed a worried, 14 panicky behavior? 15 A. I believe that she said that or I perceived 16 that from the worried state I noticed when I talked to 17 him. 18 Q. So you either learned that from your mother or 19 you perceived it yourself? 20 A. Well, I -- the way I look at it, the worry at 21 the time, I perceived that worry was a panic kind of 22 thing, to be worried about, you know, you're panicky. 23 They kind of go hand in hand of my experience when I 24 talked to him on the phone. 25 Q. Again, referring to the same time frame in PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1576 1 January of '92 going into February -- I misspoke, 2 January '93 going into February of '93, but before 3 your father took Prozac. With respect to that time 4 frame, your brother also told you some things about 5 his observations of your father's behavior; isn't that 6 right? 7 A. Yes, I believe so. 8 Q. And one of the things that your brother told 9 you was about how your father behaved during the 10 periods of panicky behavior that he would have, 11 correct? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And one of the things your brother told you was 14 that during these periods of panicky behavior, that 15 your father became hard to talk to; is that correct? 16 A. Yes, I believe that's referring to a concern he 17 had over the Xanax. 18 Q. And your brother also told you that it was like 19 your father was not really listening to you? 20 A. I think that's how he stated it, when my father 21 was so worried about the dependency issue with Xanax, 22 that he was just kind of consumed by it, so it was 23 hard to speak to him to help him out. 24 Q. Your brother told you that it was hard to calm 25 your father down during these panicky episodes; is PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1577 1 that right? 2 A. Yeah. I think that would be right. 3 Q. And that during the panicky episodes, your 4 brother told you that your father would become 5 insistent about talking to his doctor; is that right? 6 A. I think we're talking about the one instance 7 that's been brought up in court before about wanting 8 to go see Riggs Roberts. 9 Q. That was the incident when your brother and 10 father were going to the swim meet? 11 A. To Shana's swim meet, right. 12 Q. Now, again, in January and February of '93, but 13 before the time your father took Prozac, in the 14 telephone conversations that you had with him about 15 business dealings, you observed that he was much more 16 worried and paranoid about these business dealings; is 17 that correct? 18 A. I did use the word paranoid. That's how I 19 interpreted what I was experiencing with him. I don't 20 know if that would be correct by any other standard. 21 Q. And your observation of your father during 22 these telephone calls was very uncharacteristic for 23 him, correct? 24 A. Yeah, worrying the way he did. Yes. 25 Q. Now, let me ask you about February 24th, the PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1578 1 time when your father went to the hospital at Castle 2 Medical Center. Although you weren't there 3 personally, you later got a phone call or spoke with 4 your brother and he told you what he had observed? 5 A. I think I had spoken to -- my recollection is 6 that I spoke to -- first spoke to Kim. 7 Q. Did you eventually speak with your brother 8 about that incident? 9 A. Yes, I did. 10 Q. And your brother told you that at this time, on 11 February 24th, before he went to Castle Medical 12 Center, that your father had a panic attack or became 13 panicky and wanted to go to the hospital? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And your brother has also told you about the 16 time that he spent with your parents after your father 17 was released from Castle Medical Center on March the 18 3rd of '93? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And one of the things that he told you was from 21 his observations on that day, that's March the 3rd, 22 your father seemed relatively okay; is that right? 23 A. I think that my recollection of what he said 24 was that he knew that he seemed okay, but he wasn't 25 himself entirely yet. PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1579 1 Q. In other words, he still was clearly not 2 himself, but as your brother related it to you, your 3 father was not engaging in any kind of alarming 4 behavior? 5 A. Correct, he didn't have an immediate concern. 6 Q. I'm sorry, you said he did not have -- 7 A. He did not have an immediate concern. 8 Q. Recounting his observations on March the 3rd, 9 your brother never told you that your father appeared 10 to be agitated on that day, correct? 11 A. Correct. 12 Q. And is it also correct that you never got any 13 information from your brother or any other family 14 member that on March the 3rd, after he came home from 15 Castle Medical Center, that your father exhibited an 16 inability to sit still or an inability to be calm? 17 Never heard anything like that from your brother? 18 A. No, I believe I didn't. 19 Q. Now, is it also correct that you never got any 20 information at all from any family member, be it your 21 brother or his wife, that your father, during any time 22 he was taking Prozac, ever exhibited an inability to 23 sit down or an inability to be still or an inability 24 to be calm; isn't that right? 25 A. As far as -- can you state, was it three things PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1580 1 you just said? 2 Q. Surely. My question is, neither your brother 3 nor his wife nor any family member has ever told you 4 that during any time he was taking Prozac, your father 5 showed an inability to sit still or showed an 6 inability to be calm; isn't that correct? 7 A. I don't know if I could say that that's correct 8 since I believe it was the day -- the second day he 9 was on it, he was running around with the kids and was 10 pretty energetic at that time. So he wasn't calm. I 11 think that would probably contradict saying yes to 12 those things. 13 Q. All right. Can I refer you to Page 319 of your 14 deposition, please. I want to ask you about the 15 question starting at Line 15. Were you asked this 16 question and gave this answer -- 17 MR. VICKERY: Excuse me, Mr. See, just a 18 minute. Sure. 19 Q. "QUESTION: Have you gotten any information 20 from any source that your father demonstrated an 21 inability to sit still or be calm? 22 "ANSWER: No." 23 Did you give that answer? 24 A. Yes, I did. 25 MR. SEE: Thank you, Ms. Forsyth, very much. PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1581 1 I'll pass the witness. 2 THE COURT: Mr. Vickery. 3 MR. VICKERY: Thank you, Your Honor. 4 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 5 BY MR. VICKERY: 6 Q. I just have a couple things to cover with you. 7 Mr. See has gone over with you the conversations that 8 you had or the impressions you had either directly or 9 from other family members of your father in January 10 and February of '93 before Prozac, and I want to ask 11 you, if you will, to compare those impressions to the 12 impression you got in talking to him on February the 13 25th, when he was in Castle and under the influence of 14 Prozac. Were they different? Were they the same? 15 Put it in your own words. 16 MR. SEE: Objection, Your Honor. There's no 17 foundation. The witness was not observing her father. 18 His appearance, demeanor, and so on, behavior, cannot 19 be compared because she wasn't observing him on the 20 25th of February. She wasn't there. 21 THE COURT: Well, I'll allow it from her 22 limited contact over the telephone. 23 MR. VICKERY: Thank you, Your Honor. 24 THE WITNESS: There was a huge difference 25 between what I observed through conversations with my PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1582 1 father in January and February, when I knew he was 2 getting counseling and treatment and psychotherapy, 3 and when I talked to my dad in the hospital. There's 4 no comparison. 5 Q (By Mr. Vickery) Can you give words to that 6 difference and explain for us what it was? 7 A. What happened in the few times I talked to my 8 father about real estate matters in January and 9 February weren't so dramatic. They didn't concern me. 10 They didn't worry me. It was looking back that I can 11 see that there was something there. 12 When I talked to my father in the hospital, it 13 was clear cut that there was something really 14 different about him. I mean, just -- that's why I 15 cried. That's why I broke down. That's the first 16 time, in this whole period, that I was alarmed to any 17 degree that something seriously was different about my 18 dad. 19 MR. VICKERY: Thank you. That's all I have, 20 Your Honor. 21 MR. SEE: I have no further questions, Your 22 Honor. Ms. Forsyth, thank you very much. 23 THE COURT: Thank you. You're excused. Well, 24 it's four o'clock. Let's meet again at nine o'clock 25 tomorrow morning. PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1583 1 (Whereupon, the proceedings were adjourned at 2 4:00 p.m. to be reconvened on Thursday, 3 March 18, 1999 at 9:00 a.m.) 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1584 1 C E R T I F I C A T E 2 --ooOOoo-- 3 I, TINA M. STUHR, Official Court Reporter, 4 United States District Court, District of Hawaii, 5 Honolulu, Hawaii, do hereby certify that the foregoing 6 is a correct partial transcript of proceedings in 7 Civil No. 95-00185ACK, Susan K. Forsyth, et al. vs. 8 Eli Lilly and Company, et al., at Honolulu, Hawaii, on 9 March 17, 1999, before the Honorable Alan C. Kay, 10 United States District Judge. 11 DATED: December 23, 1999. 12 13 ______________________________________ TINA M. STUHR, RPR, CSR #360 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU