1396 1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 2 FOR THE DISTRICT OF HAWAII 3 4 SUSAN K. FORSYTH, ) Civil No. 95-00185ACK Individually and as ) 5 Personal Representative ) Pages 1,396 - 1,584 of the Estates of June M. ) 6 Forsyth and William D. ) Forsyth, and WILLIAM F. ) 7 FORSYTH, JR., ) ) 8 Plaintiffs, ) ) 9 vs. ) ) 10 ELI LILLY AND COMPANY, ) an Indiana corporation, ) 11 et al., ) ) 12 Defendants. ) __________________________) 13 14 TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS 15 The above-entitled matter came on for trial on 16 Wednesday, March 17, 1999 at 9:20 a.m. at Honolulu, 17 Hawaii. 18 BEFORE: THE HONORABLE ALAN C. KAY 19 United States District Judge District of Hawaii 20 21 REPORTED BY: TINA M. STUHR, RPR, CSR #360 Notary Public, State of Hawaii 22 PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. 23 733 Bishop Street Suite 2090, Makai Tower 24 Honolulu, Hawaii 96813 (808) 524-PRSU 25 PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1397 1 APPEARANCES: 2 For Plaintiffs: ANTHONY ANDERSON VICKERY, ESQ. Archer, Waldner & Vickery 3 2929 Allen Parkway Suite 2410 4 Houston, Texas 77019 5 KAREN BARTH, ESQ. Baum, Hedlund, Aristei, Guilford 6 & Downey 12100 Wilshire Boulevard 7 Suite 950 Los Angeles, California 90025 8 ROY K.S. CHANG, ESQ. 9 Shim & Chang 333 Queen Street 10 Suite 900 Honolulu, Hawaii 96813 11 For Defendant: ANDREW SEE, ESQ. 12 MICHELLE R. MANGRUM, ESQ. Shook, Hardy & Bacon L.L.P. 13 One Kansas City Place 1200 Main Street 14 Kansas City, Missouri 64105 15 EDMUND BURKE, ESQ. Burke Sakai McPheeters Bordner 16 Iwanaga & Estes 737 Bishop Street 17 Suite 3100 - Mauka Tower Honolulu, Hawaii 96813 18 Also Present: Catherine Itai 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1398 1 I N D E X 2 WITNESS ON BEHALF OF PLAINTIFFS PAGE 3 RONALD SHLENSKY, M.D. 4 Cross-Examination Continued by Mr. See 1399 Redirect Examination by Mr. Vickery 1425 5 THOMAS F. BRADY, Ph.D. 6 Direct Examination by Mr. Vickery 1440 7 Cross-Examination by Mr. See 1464 Redirect Examination by Mr. Vickery 1501 8 KAREN FORSYTH 9 Direct Examination by Mr. Chang 1506 10 Cross-Examination by Mr. Burke 1523 11 SUSAN FORSYTH 12 Direct Examination by Mr. Vickery 1537 Cross-Examination by Mr. See 1563 13 Redirect Examination by Mr. Vickery 1581 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1399 1 THE CLERK: Civil No. 95-00185ACK, Susan K. 2 Forsyth, et al. versus Eli Lilly and Company, et al. 3 MR. VICKERY: Good morning, Your Honor. Andy 4 Vickery and Karen Barth for the Forsyths. 5 THE COURT: Good morning. 6 MR. SEE: Good morning, Your Honor. Andy See 7 with Michelle Mangrum and Ed Burke for Eli Lilly and 8 Company. 9 THE COURT: Good morning. Good morning, ladies 10 and gentlemen of the jury. Please proceed. 11 MR. SEE: Thank you, Your Honor. 12 CROSS-EXAMINATION (Continued) 13 BY MR. SEE: 14 Q. Dr. Shlensky, good morning. 15 A. Good morning. I fell into a psychological trap 16 yesterday, and I should apologize to you. I felt 17 criticized and I acted critical, which is a natural 18 human tendency, so I apologize if I was critical of 19 you. 20 Q. You don't have to apologize to me. That's not 21 why we're here. I do have just a few more things for 22 you this morning. Hopefully, it will not take too 23 long. 24 Again, asking you about the conclusions that 25 you've drawn after your review of the materials PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1400 1 provided to you about Bill and June Forsyth. The 2 first thing I want to ask is with respect to the 3 aspect of religion and the life of the Forsyth family, 4 from your review of the materials about this case, you 5 have concluded that, in fact, June Forsyth had put 6 some pressure on her husband Bill to become more 7 involved in the church; isn't that right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And you also concluded, I think, that Bill 10 Forsyth was resistant to that pressure; isn't that 11 right? 12 A. Well, he ultimately did proceed to get more 13 involved. 14 Q. I understand, but I'm asking you, isn't it 15 correct and did you not conclude that in response to 16 the pressure from his wife June to be more involved in 17 the church, Bill Forsyth's reaction was to resist it; 18 isn't that right? 19 A. I felt that was the case, and I think that, 20 again, is human nature operating there. Generally, 21 pressure is met with resistance within, so it's not 22 the best technique to get somebody to go along with 23 the plan, is to pressure them. 24 Q. And you would also agree that there were times 25 in the Forsyth marriage that this pressure and PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1401 1 resistance to pressure, with respect to how involved 2 in religion the family would be, that at times, in the 3 marriage, it was a source of significant conflict? 4 A. Well, there was conflict, but it also is an 5 indication of intense involvement with each other. 6 Q. Would you mind turning to Volume III of your 7 deposition? 8 A. Sure. 9 Q. And I'll ask you to look specifically at 10 Page 515. I think it's the thin one. 11 A. Is it here? 12 Q. Is there a thin one underneath the stack? 13 A. Oh, there it is, I'm sorry. What page? 14 Q. 515. 15 MR. VICKERY: 515? 16 MR. SEE: Yes, sir. 17 Q. And starting at Line 25, I want to ask if you 18 were asked this question and gave this answer: 19 "QUESTION: Would you agree that Mrs. Forsyth's 20 approach and practices that made up her religious life 21 constituted a significant conflict in the marriage 22 between Mrs. Forsyth and Mr. Forsyth? 23 "ANSWER: Well, I would say that varied from 24 time to time. 25 "QUESTION: So are you saying that sometimes PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1402 1 that was a significant conflict and then sometimes it 2 was not? 3 "ANSWER: Yes." 4 Did you give those answers? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. So we can agree, then, that your view is that 7 there were times when this conflict was a significant 8 issue in their marriage? 9 A. Yes. I think that's a fair statement. 10 Q. Now, as I understand it, you also were provided 11 and reviewed the records relating to June Forsyth's 12 own psychiatric treatment; isn't that right? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. And you would agree, would you not, that if one 15 spouse in a marriage has a psychiatric illness or a 16 significant emotional problem, it can affect the 17 emotional state or psychiatric state of the other 18 spouse? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Now, we've heard testimony about the fact that 21 there was a request, perhaps, by Mr. Forsyth on 22 February 24th to go to the hospital. You're familiar 23 with that? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Now, isn't it correct that Mr. Forsyth called PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1403 1 one of his doctors two days earlier; that is, on 2 February 22nd, before he ever took Prozac, and told 3 his doctor that he thought he needed to be in the 4 hospital? Isn't that right? 5 A. Well, it sounds right. I must say I haven't 6 necessarily committed these various events to memory. 7 I don't think I want to be a source of information 8 about that because it's not really within the scope of 9 my expertise. It's more of a fact issue. 10 Q. Okay. The reason I'm asking you that goes to 11 your opinion that Prozac caused what it has alleged to 12 cause in this case, so I'm just asking you, did you 13 take into account in forming your opinion that Bill 14 Forsyth, before he ever took Prozac, on February 22nd 15 of 1993, that Bill Forsyth called one of his doctors 16 and said I think I need to be in the hospital? 17 A. Now, I remember more about that. I believe at 18 that time, my understanding was that he was scared of 19 being hooked on Xanax because he had a history 26 20 years ago of having had, at least as he perceived it, 21 a problem with alcohol and he was worried. He had 22 been told or somehow he came to believe that Xanax, 23 this Valium-like agent, could cause him to become 24 dependent on it or addicted, and I think that's why 25 he -- that was my understanding of why he wanted to go PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1404 1 in the hospital because he was worried about being 2 addicted and he wanted to get off of that drug. 3 Q. So we can understand your testimony then, you 4 now have a recollection that, in fact, Bill Forsyth 5 called one of his doctors on February 22nd, before he 6 ever took Prozac, and said he thought he needed to be 7 in the hospital? That's one of the facts that you -- 8 A. That's my best recollection, yeah. 9 Q. I'm sorry? 10 A. That's my best recollection. 11 Q. As I understand it, you have no criticism of 12 the treatment that Dr. Roberts provided Mr. Forsyth? 13 A. Well, it's always easy to find problems, 14 especially in circumstances like this where the 15 outcome was so bad and, you know, so I have certain 16 problems, but it's easy in retrospect to find fault 17 with somebody when you're not there. 18 Q. Would you turn to your deposition at Page 172? 19 A. Okay. I have to remind you, though, with 20 regard to my deposition, that that deposition was 21 given in 1997. It was before I ever sat here in the 22 courtroom and listened to Dr. Roberts. So I can't 23 distill that out of my mind, so to speak, so I have 24 new information. 25 Q. If you wouldn't mind just looking at your PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1405 1 deposition. 2 A. Let's see. Which volume is that? 3 Q. It's the first volume, Page 172. 4 A. Okay. 5 Q. I'm going to direct you to Line 18, and ask if 6 you got this question and gave this answer at the time 7 I took your deposition in this case. 8 "QUESTION: Do you have any criticism of 9 Dr. Roberts' care of Mr. Forsyth? 10 "ANSWER: Is that Riggs Roberts? 11 "QUESTION: Yes, sir. 12 "ANSWER: Do I have the right guy? 13 "QUESTION: You do. 14 "ANSWER: At the moment, I don't have any 15 criticisms of his treatment." 16 Did you give that answer? 17 A. Well, the problem with his treatment is -- one 18 of the problems -- 19 Q. I'm sorry, Dr. Shlensky. Right now, the only 20 question before you is, at the time that I took your 21 deposition in this case, when I was asking you about 22 your opinions that you had already arrived at, that 23 you had written a report about, that had been produced 24 to me, and when I had a chance to ask you about what 25 your opinions were and what you were going to testify PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1406 1 about in this case, did you give the answer that we 2 just read in your deposition? 3 MR. VICKERY: Excuse me, Mr. See, and, Doctor, 4 before he answers. Your Honor, I would like, for 5 fairness, for Mr. See to read the very next question 6 and answer at the top of Page 173 before the doctor is 7 asked to answer that question. He's taking the 8 statement out of context, Your Honor. 9 MR. SEE: Your Honor, I object to counsel's 10 comment. If there's a question about what ought or 11 ought not be read in fairness, that's one thing. 12 Q. Dr. Shlensky, would you turn over to Page 173. 13 Let's accommodate Mr. Vickery and read -- and I'll 14 read to you and ask if you got a question and gave an 15 answer, starting at Line 1. 16 "QUESTION: Do you have information about what 17 Dr. Roberts knew or didn't know about Prozac at the 18 time he prescribed it for Mr. Forsyth? 19 "ANSWER: No." 20 Now, the same question is still pending, 21 Dr. Shlensky. The questions and answers that were 22 just read to you from your deposition in this case, 23 did you give the answers at that time? 24 A. You know, I can't -- my problem is that -- 25 THE COURT: Just answer yes or no. PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1407 1 THE WITNESS: Oh, okay. Well, it really would 2 create a misleading impression if I answered yes or 3 no. 4 Q (By Mr. See) So you're not going to follow 5 the Judge's instruction? 6 A. Well, I don't want to get into trouble, but I'm 7 just trying to give the best information. 8 THE COURT: Was that your answer at the time of 9 your deposition or not? 10 THE WITNESS: Oh, yes, it was. 11 Q (By Mr. See) Okay. Thank you, sir. Now, the 12 next question, Dr. Shlensky, is this: Isn't it also 13 true that you have no criticism of Dr. Neal's 14 treatment of Mr. Forsyth during the time he was a 15 patient at Castle Medical Center? 16 A. Well, it's not true. 17 Q. Could I refer you, please, to your deposition 18 at Page 172. It's the same Volume I. Are you there, 19 sir? I'm going to start at Line 6. 20 A. Which page? 21 Q. 172. 22 A. 172? 23 Q. Yes. 24 "QUESTION: And my question is, do you have any 25 criticism of Dr. Neal's treatment of Mr. Forsyth PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1408 1 during the time that he was in Castle Hospital? 2 "ANSWER: I'm just -- at the moment, I'm taking 3 my time because I'm thinking over what Dr. Neal did 4 and so on and so forth. I just want to give you 5 careful answers to the questions. Well, at the 6 moment, I can't identify any criticisms of the care he 7 provided." 8 Did you give that answer, sir? 9 MR. VICKERY: Excuse me, Mr. See. Out of 10 fairness, Your Honor, we have the same question with 11 respect to Dr. Neal we did about Dr. Roberts on the 12 next page, 173 beginning on Line 5. 13 Q (By Mr. See) All right. Dr. Shlensky, turn 14 over to Page 173 and let's read the question 15 Mr. Vickery wants read. That starts at Line 5. And 16 the question was: "Do you have any information about 17 what Dr. Neal knew or didn't know about Prozac at the 18 time he prescribed for Mr. Forsyth? 19 "ANSWER: I would not want to represent myself 20 as being knowledgeable about what those people knew 21 about Prozac at this time." 22 Now, Dr. Shlensky, the pending question is, did 23 you give those answers at the time of your deposition? 24 A. The answer is yes, I gave those answers, but 25 they need to be interpreted at this time. PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1409 1 Q. Yes, sir. Now, you wrote a report in this 2 case, which was provided to me, that sets forth the 3 opinions that you had formed and were intending to 4 testify about, correct? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And in your report, you wrote and do you 7 have -- 8 MR. VICKERY: I have it right here. What page? 9 MR. SEE: It's the third page, and I'm going to 10 ask him about paragraphs numbered three and four. 11 Q. And you wrote, "The patient was ultimately put 12 on Prozac and, shortly thereafter, briefly 13 hospitalized. He was appropriately worried about 14 being on such medication, but was reassured by his 15 doctors." Do you recall writing that? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Now, your reference to Mr. Forsyth being 18 worried about being on such medication, you intended 19 that that refer to Prozac; isn't that right? 20 A. I believe so. 21 Q. But isn't it the fact, Dr. Shlensky, that the 22 medication that Mr. Forsyth was worried about was 23 Xanax, that he was worried about being addicted to 24 Xanax; isn't that right? 25 A. Well, that's partially right, but I think, in PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1410 1 general, he was a person who did not like the idea of 2 taking medications, and I can't tell you specifically 3 why I have this impression, but I think that somehow 4 he was fearful of Prozac, not only by its specific 5 identification. And I think there had been a lot 6 of -- some stuff in the newspaper -- 7 Q. Dr. Shlensky, I have to ask you to stop right 8 there. 9 A. Okay. 10 Q. The next question I have is this: You have 11 carefully reviewed the records regarding Mr. Forsyth's 12 hospitalization at Castle Medical Center? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Isn't it correct that during the time 15 Mr. Forsyth was a patient at Castle Medical Center, he 16 showed a good response to Prozac and, in fact, began 17 to gradually improve his depression? Isn't that true? 18 A. I don't believe that that's accurate, no. 19 Q. All right. I'm going to write down, "At 20 Castle, did not show good response to Prozac." That 21 would be consistent with your view, right? 22 A. I think that's -- yes, that's more consistent 23 than he did. 24 Q. And your view is also that at the time 25 Mr. Forsyth was at Castle, his depression did not PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1411 1 gradually begin to improve, correct? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Now, let me ask you just a couple of questions 4 about your opinion on causation. As I understand it 5 from your testimony, it is your opinion that Prozac 6 caused Mr. Forsyth to become agitated, right? 7 A. That's true. 8 Q. And it's also your opinion that Prozac caused 9 Mr. Forsyth to develop akathisia? 10 A. Some elements of that condition. 11 Q. Now, you also have the view, isn't it right, 12 that during the time Mr. Forsyth was taking Prozac, he 13 developed behaviors; pacing, foot tapping, 14 handwriting? Is that correct? 15 A. No, I don't think that's correct. Those are 16 words I used to describe some features of akathisia, 17 but not necessarily all such features are present in 18 each person that develops the condition. 19 Q. All right. Would you mind turning to Volume 20 III of your deposition at Page 527. 21 THE COURT: I'm sorry, what page? 22 MR. SEE: 527, Your Honor. 23 Q. I'm going to start on that page at Line 23 and 24 ask if you were asked this question and gave this 25 answer: PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1412 1 "QUESTION: Based upon your review of the 2 materials provided to you, did Mr. Forsyth, at any 3 time he was taking Prozac, engage in pacing or foot 4 tapping or hand wringing? 5 "ANSWER: That's my impression. 6 "QUESTION: That he did? 7 "ANSWER: Yeah." 8 Did you give those answers? 9 A. Well, I think the next answer I gave is also 10 meaningful. 11 Q. I understand that, Dr. Shlensky. 12 A. In relating to what you're asking, that's part 13 of my answer. 14 MR. SEE: Your Honor, may I just ask that the 15 Court direct the witness to answer the question? 16 THE COURT: Just answer the question -- 17 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 18 THE COURT: -- Dr. Shlensky. 19 THE WITNESS: Okay. 20 Q (By Mr. See) The only question was, Doctor, 21 did you give that answer? 22 A. I did give that answer. 23 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, it is -- let me make a 24 note of that. 25 A. I gave that answer, but it was in the context PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1413 1 of other information. 2 Q. All right, sir. Now I'm going to ask you about 3 that. I'm going to ask you this: Isn't it correct 4 that there is not a single note in the Castle Medical 5 records to the effect that Mr. Forsyth engaged in 6 pacing or foot tapping or hand wringing; isn't that 7 right? No note of those things? 8 A. I think that's correct, yes. 9 Q. Now, with respect to Mr. Forsyth and 10 akathisia -- 11 A. That doesn't mean that it didn't happen. 12 Q. Now, with respect to Mr. Forsyth and akathisia, 13 isn't it correct there's not a single note or entry in 14 any of the Castle Medical Center records that says 15 that Mr. Forsyth had, was observed to have, was 16 diagnosed as having akathisia; isn't that right? 17 A. Well, it's not right in the full meaning of the 18 matter. I mean, I don't think they identified it as 19 akathisia. 20 Q. The word akathisia does not appear in the 21 Castle Medical Records, does it, in relation to Bill 22 Forsyth? 23 A. I don't think it does. I mean, that's my 24 impression. 25 Q. Would you agree to this, Dr. Shlensky, during PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1414 1 any time that Bill Forsyth ever took Prozac, he did 2 not have any sign of involuntary movement? 3 A. No, I don't agree with that. 4 Q. Would you turn to Page 527 of your deposition. 5 That would be in Volume III. I'm going to ask you 6 about Line 13. 7 A. Oh, Volume III? 8 Q. Yes, sir. Starting at Line 13, I'm going to 9 ask if you got these questions and gave these answers. 10 MR. VICKERY: Excuse me, Mr. See. Your Honor, 11 this is not impeachment. It's improper use of a 12 deposition, but I don't mind it as long as he reads it 13 in context. Line 2 is where this colloquy starts. 14 Q (By Mr. See) Dr. Shlensky? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. Look up the page there to Line 2. 17 A. I'm not sure we have the same lineage here. 18 Q. My question is: At the time of your deposition 19 in this case, did you get these questions and give 20 these answers: 21 "QUESTION: Was there any time when Mr. Forsyth 22 was taking Prozac that he showed signs of involuntary 23 movement? 24 "ANSWER: Not that I know of unless you call 25 agitation involuntary movement. I mean, I don't have PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1415 1 a -- I don't think I have a -- I don't -- I don't 2 have -- I am not willing to, on the basis of physical 3 descriptions of, or I don't have sufficient 4 information about physical observations of him that I 5 can say that he was experiencing involuntary movements 6 or that he wasn't. 7 "QUESTION: Well, from anything that you've 8 seen, is there any sign, any evidence, that he was, in 9 fact, experiencing involuntary movement during any 10 time he was taking Prozac? 11 "ANSWER: No." And then you go on, "Well, I 12 don't think anybody reported that." 13 Did you give those answers? 14 A. I'm sure I did. What page are you on? 15 Q. It was at 527. 16 A. Oh, I see. Well, I certainly gave those 17 answers, but -- 18 Q. All right, sir. 19 A. -- they're not really reflecting my current 20 understanding of what transpired. 21 Q. Now, a couple of questions about the disease -- 22 the mental disease of major depression. You would 23 agree that as a part of the disease of major 24 depression, patients can perform acts or exhibit 25 behavior that is outside of their normal personality? PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1416 1 You agree with that? 2 A. Well, it's a very complicated question. I 3 could probably talk about that answer for a long time. 4 I'd say in the -- 5 Q. Maybe I can help, Doctor. You can say I agree 6 with it, I don't agree with it, or you can say I'm 7 unable to answer it because it's a complex question. 8 Any of those answers are permissible. 9 A. All right. Well, what I would say is that I 10 would like to explain why I'm having difficulty 11 answering it. Because it involves what the definition 12 of personality is and things of that nature. 13 Q. Would you turn to your deposition, please, at 14 Page 507. That would be in Volume III. 15 A. Okay. 16 Q. And I want to ask you about Line 18. 17 MR. VICKERY: Excuse me, Mr. See, 507? 18 MR. SEE: Yes, sir. 19 THE WITNESS: Oh, that's different. 20 Q (By Mr. See) Were you asked this question and 21 did you give this answer: 22 "QUESTION: Would you agree that an individual 23 suffering from major depression, as a part of that 24 disease, can perform acts or exhibit behavior that is 25 out of his normal character? PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1417 1 "ANSWER: Yes." 2 Did you give that answer? 3 MR. VICKERY: Well, wait a minute. That's not 4 the entire answer, Mr. See. 5 THE COURT: Pardon me? 6 MR. VICKERY: Your Honor, that's not the entire 7 answer. The answer continues on Line 25. Out of 8 fairness, I would ask that he just read the entire 9 answer. 10 Q (By Mr. See) All right. Look down at Line 11 25, Dr. Shlensky. 12 A. Okay. 13 Q. Are you there? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. "But I -- I do have to add this, but -- and 16 that is that with scrutiny, one would see some 17 congruence ordinarily or find some explanation in the 18 person's history, background, psychodynamics, 19 congenital makeup and so on. In other words -- well, 20 that's sufficient. Enough said." 21 Did you give those answers at your deposition? 22 A. You know, I have to point out that when you 23 first asked me this question, you used the word 24 personality, and then when you read it, you used the 25 character, and they're different things. PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1418 1 Q. All right. If I made an error in that respect, 2 I'll correct it. Do you agree, Dr. Shlensky, that in 3 a person who has major depression, as a part of the 4 disease, the person can perform acts or exhibit 5 behavior that is outside of his normal character? Do 6 you agree with that? 7 A. Yes, I would agree with that. If you don't 8 mind my adding, the concept of character -- 9 THE COURT: Well, you don't have a question 10 before you at this point. 11 THE WITNESS: Okay. 12 Q (By Mr. See) Now, again, patients with major 13 depression. Would you agree with this concept: In 14 people who have the disease of major depression, 15 sometimes a patient can begin to look better; that is, 16 improving conditions, but that, in fact, can be a 17 danger sign because it can signify that that person 18 has decided to commit suicide? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And that is a recognized concept in psychiatry, 21 isn't it? 22 A. Yes. But not murder. 23 Q. Sorry? 24 A. But not murder. 25 Q. I'll ask you about that in a second. Now, PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1419 1 isn't it also a recognized concept in the field of 2 psychiatry, that in patients with major depression who 3 become suicidal, sometimes those people kill other 4 people along with themselves? 5 A. Do you mind repeating the question? I want to 6 be very careful of my answer. 7 Q. Sure. Do you also agree that it is a 8 recognized concept in the field of psychiatry that in 9 patients with major depression who become suicidal, 10 sometimes those patients will kill other people along 11 with themselves? 12 A. Well, again, it's a complicated question. This 13 happens -- it is recognized, and it is -- I remember 14 one patient of mine that killed his dog, for example, 15 because he didn't want the dog to be abandoned. It's 16 a terrible mentality, however this is done -- this 17 concept that we're discussing is the concept of 18 sparing others' suffering as a result of my death, for 19 example -- 20 Q. All I'm asking you, Doctor, at this point -- 21 A. Yeah. 22 Q. -- is that is a recognized concept in 23 psychiatry, and I think you agreed with that, right? 24 A. Well, I agreed with it, but it doesn't fit in 25 this instance. PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1420 1 Q. Okay. Again, considering a patient with major 2 depression, if some event or some other person puts 3 pressure on a person who is depressed to do something 4 that the patient may not want to do, that can have the 5 effect of worsening the patient's depression? 6 MR. VICKERY: Objection. That question assumes 7 facts not in evidence. There's no evidence of any 8 pressure in February or March of 1993, Your Honor. 9 THE COURT: Overruled. 10 THE WITNESS: Let's see if I'm answering the 11 right question here. In general, I don't tell my 12 patients to do things because I don't want -- I know 13 that they might not do it, and then they might feel 14 bad that they didn't follow instructions, so I don't 15 like to pressure them. 16 Q (By Mr. See) That's exactly what I want to 17 ask you about. 18 A. Yeah. 19 Q. Isn't it the case that that concept, recognized 20 concept, is that if pressure is put on a depressed 21 person to do something, the depressed person can feel 22 guilty because they're unable to do it, they're unable 23 to satisfy whoever it is that is asking them to do it; 24 isn't that right? 25 A. Well, it always happens. Every family thinks, PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1421 1 gee, if you would just go to the movies or if you'd 2 just go out, it's just a natural part of the healing 3 attempts on the part of the family, and I try to teach 4 them, you know, don't pressure the person because they 5 might not do it and then they feel bad. So it's a 6 recognized thing, sure. 7 Q. Now, let me ask you this question: I want to 8 ask you about the period of time immediately following 9 the release of a patient from a psychiatric hospital, 10 okay? That's the time frame I want to ask you about, 11 the time period that follows the release. And the 12 question I have for you about that is this: Isn't it 13 correct that in a patient with major depression, and 14 that patient has been in an inpatient program in a 15 psychiatric hospital, that if that patient is 16 prematurely released; that is, released before, maybe, 17 they should be, that in that situation, isn't it 18 correct that the period immediately following the 19 release is, for that patient, a high risk for suicide? 20 A. Especially if they're on a drug that's making 21 them worse, that's true. 22 THE COURT: Especially what? 23 THE WITNESS: If they're on a drug that's 24 making them worse. 25 MR. SEE: Your Honor, I ask that the Court PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1422 1 strike the witness' answer, and direct the witness to 2 answer the question. 3 THE COURT: The answer will be stricken and, 4 Dr. Shlensky, you are directed to answer the question. 5 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 6 Q (By Mr. See) Do you have it mind? I can ask 7 it again. 8 A. About a high risk period. 9 Q. Isn't it correct -- just set aside drugs for a 10 second for this question. 11 A. Okay. 12 Q. Isn't it correct that if a person with major 13 depression is in a psychiatric hospital, inpatient, 14 and that person is prematurely released, isn't it 15 right that this time period immediately following the 16 release is, for that patient, a high risk for suicide? 17 A. Actually, I haven't looked at the statistics on 18 that recently, but it makes sense to me. 19 I apologize for elaborating, but a doctor in 20 this situation -- I understand it from both the 21 doctor's standpoint and a lawyer's standpoint. A 22 doctor in this situation feels pretty bridled when he 23 can't answer questions completely. So I apologize for 24 deviating. I apologize to you, sir. I'll be careful 25 about it. PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1423 1 Q. If you answered my question, I didn't catch it, 2 Dr. Shlensky. 3 A. Well, I haven't looked at the statistics -- 4 Q. The question is, for that patient, isn't the 5 period immediately following the release a high risk 6 for suicide? 7 A. Well, I haven't checked out the statistics on 8 that, so I don't want to -- it seems logical, but I 9 don't want to be definitive about it. 10 Q. All right. Let me refer you to Page 534 of 11 your deposition. That's in Volume III, specifically 12 at Line 4. Were you asked this question and did you 13 give this answer: 14 "QUESTION: Is the period immediately following 15 discharge from a mental hospital a period of high risk 16 for suicidality in patients with major depression who 17 had been discharged from the hospital after an 18 inpatient treatment? 19 "ANSWER: I would say if they haven't had 20 proper care or if they're discharged prematurely, that 21 would be the case. If they've had successful 22 treatment, then that wouldn't be the case." 23 Did you give that answer? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Now, again, talking about patients with major PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1424 1 depression, you would agree that if a person has major 2 depression and they also have anxiety, that increases 3 the risk of suicide in that person, correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And is it also correct that if a patient with 6 major depression also has panic attacks, that 7 increases the risk of suicide in that person? 8 A. I've seen such statements in the literature and 9 they make sense. Anything that aggravates the 10 condition, makes it worse, increases the risk. 11 Q. Dr. Healy gave some testimony earlier about 12 case reports. The question I want to ask you about 13 case reports is this: Would you agree that case 14 reports are not controlled data? 15 A. Yes. It can become controlled data. 16 Q. Now, you agree that there are, in history, 17 unfortunately, depressed patients sometimes become 18 suicidal and sometimes actually commit suicide, right? 19 A. That's true. 20 Q. You also agree that people with major 21 depression, even if they're receiving treatment with 22 antidepressant medications, can become suicidal and 23 commit suicide, right? 24 A. That's true. 25 Q. But you also agree that that does not PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1425 1 necessarily mean that the antidepressant medication 2 the patient was taking caused the suicide, right? 3 A. Well, each situation is different, but in 4 general, that doesn't mean that. It can mean it, but 5 it doesn't mean it necessarily. 6 MR. SEE: Thank you, sir. I'll pass the 7 witness. 8 MR. VICKERY: May I proceed, Your Honor? 9 THE COURT: You may. 10 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 11 BY MR. VICKERY: 12 Q. Dr. Shlensky, Mr. See read three paragraphs 13 from your report today, Paragraphs 3, 4, and 5, I want 14 to read -- I'm sorry, he read Paragraphs 3 and 4, and 15 I want to read 5, 6, 7, and 8 and ask you if these 16 were the opinions that you had at the time of the 17 report and are these still your opinions. 18 MR. SEE: I object to the hearsay, Your Honor. 19 THE COURT: Hearsay? Overruled. 20 MR. SEE: The report is not in evidence, Your 21 Honor. 22 THE COURT: Well, he can ask him whether that's 23 his opinion. 24 MR. VICKERY: Thank you, Your Honor. 25 Q. Number five, "The records convey the sense that PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1426 1 he was seeking and expecting relief and was frightened 2 by his distress and the feeling of loss of his usual 3 coping strategies. 4 "Though he reported feeling better and seemed 5 better to his family, almost immediately on starting 6 Prozac, within a few days he described complaints 7 typical of patients not tolerating Prozac well, 8 feeling strange and fearful. His family recognized 9 his emotional change for the worse reflected in his 10 appearance and emotional tone and was worried about 11 him. In other words, the signs of a reaction to the 12 medication were apparent to others. 13 "Approximately ten days after starting Prozac, 14 he killed his wife and himself. The killing of the 15 wife was unusually violent. Given no history of a 16 sensilla or predisposition of such behavior, the 17 typical Prozac reaction complaints, and the precise 18 time concordance, this is clearly a psychotic and 19 agitated response to Prozac with sudden onset and 20 savage results." 21 Were those your opinions in May of 1997? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Are they your opinions today? 24 A. Absolutely. 25 Q. Now, I want to ask you about this pacing PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1427 1 business, okay. Mr. See read to you two segments from 2 your deposition and I want us to look at the third one 3 that follows it. If you'll turn to Page 528 in Volume 4 III. 5 A. 528? 6 Q. That's the thin volume. 7 A. Okay. 8 Q. You got it? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. Now, Mr. See read to you from 527 and from the 11 top of 528. I'm going to just simply read the 12 question that you were asked then, beginning at 528, 13 Line 9, and I'm going to ask you to read the response 14 you gave to Mr. See at that time as printed in the 15 deposition. 16 MR. SEE: Your Honor, I object to Mr. Vickery 17 reading the deposition while the witness is here to 18 testify. It's not impeachment. It's hearsay. 19 THE COURT: Well, I surprised that this wasn't 20 brought up as a matter of completeness at the time 21 that the other questions were read. 22 MR. VICKERY: Your Honor, there were a couple 23 of instances where that wasn't done. The rule, Rule 24 106, I think is clear that there are certain matters 25 that are complete, and I'm given the option either of PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1428 1 insisting that he offer it at that time or 2 subsequently offering such additional portions of the 3 writings as are appropriate. 4 THE COURT: Well, in any event, I will allow it 5 at this time for completeness. 6 MR. VICKERY: Thank you, Your Honor. 7 Q (By Mr. Vickery) Starting at Line 7, I'm 8 sorry, on 528. "When did that happen, please?" 9 A. You want me to read the answer? 10 Q. Just read the answer. Don't do anything, but 11 read the answer. 12 A. Oh, I see. You want -- 13 THE COURT: You go ahead and read the whole 14 thing, Mr. Vickery. 15 MR. VICKERY: Okay. I will, Your Honor. 16 Q. Your answer, "Well, my -- the picture I have of 17 him is that he was very restless in the hospital and 18 that that was part of the reason he was discharged 19 because he wanted to get out of there. 20 "QUESTION: And as part of that restlessness 21 you say you have seen, there was a report of him 22 pacing or hand wringing or foot tapping? 23 "ANSWER: Well, I don't know whether those 24 specific words were used. 25 "QUESTION: That's what I'm asking you about. PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1429 1 Is there any evidence that you know about that 2 Mr. Forsyth was engaged in activities of pacing or 3 hand wringing or foot tapping while he was taking 4 Prozac? 5 "ANSWER: The best answer I can give you is 6 that as an experienced psychiatrist, who's taken care 7 of so many patients in that circumstance, when I 8 picture what was going on at the hospital, that's the 9 way I picture Mr. -- based on what I read in the 10 hospital record and my experience, that's the way I 11 picture Mr. Forsyth at that time. I don't picture a 12 calm, thoughtful, relaxed person. I picture somebody 13 who was miserable, and part of misery in such patients 14 is a certain degree of agitation sometimes, and in 15 this case, it was substantial as far as I could 16 determine." 17 Were those your answers to the questions about 18 akathisia in your deposition? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Thank you. 21 A. Actually, I got choked up in the middle of my 22 answer, I was going to add -- 23 THE COURT: Well, there's no question before 24 you at this point. 25 Q (By Mr. Vickery) Dr. Shlensky, you guys as PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1430 1 psychiatrists are trained, when people ask you a 2 question, to answer with a question, aren't you? 3 A. Well, there's a reason for that, too. 4 Q. I understand that. And I know it's tough for 5 you to change gears in court here, but please just try 6 to listen and answer my questions, okay? 7 A. Okay. 8 Q. That's the rules we have to play by. 9 Now, I want to ask you about this question 10 about premature release. Premature release. 11 MR. VICKERY: And to do that, Ms. Barth, can we 12 have the television? 13 Q. I want to look at a draft warning that Eli 14 Lilly prepared and thought about giving to physicians, 15 but didn't, okay? It's Exhibit No. 5. 16 MR. SEE: Your Honor, before that comes up, can 17 I approach side bar? I have an objection to it. 18 THE COURT: Very well. 19 (Whereupon, the following proceedings were had 20 at side bar out of the hearing of the jury.) 21 MR. SEE: My objection is, any question going 22 to the warnings is beyond the scope of 23 cross-examination. I did not ask Dr. Shlensky any 24 question about the opinions of adequacy of warnings, 25 what should or should not be warned about. That was PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1431 1 not a part of any cross-examination, so Mr. Vickery is 2 beyond the scope and trying to get into new areas for 3 the witness. 4 MR. VICKERY: Your Honor, I'm not doing that at 5 all. He asked him about a premature release from the 6 hospital, okay? And this warning would have cautioned 7 this doctor against a premature release from the 8 hospital, so it is a direct response to what Mr. See 9 raised on cross-examination. 10 MR. SEE: No questions about warnings. 11 THE COURT: I'm going to preclude it because it 12 does go beyond the scope and it is sheer speculation. 13 You should have asked that question to Dr. Neal. This 14 doctor doesn't know what Dr. Neal would have done. 15 (Whereupon, the following proceedings were had 16 in open court in the presence of the jury.) 17 THE COURT: Please proceed, Mr. Vickery. 18 MR. VICKERY: Thank you, Your Honor. 19 Q. Do you believe that Dr. Neal did prematurely 20 release Bill Forsyth from the hospital? 21 A. He obviously did. 22 Q. And do you know whether or not he -- 23 MR. SEE: I beg your pardon. I honestly didn't 24 hear Dr. Shlensky's answer. 25 THE WITNESS: He obviously did. PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1432 1 THE COURT: He obviously what? 2 THE WITNESS: Did. 3 Q (By Mr. Vickery) And were you here for his 4 testimony on Friday? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And did you hear his response to the final 7 question I asked him, would he have heeded a warning 8 from Eli Lilly? 9 MR. SEE: Objection. Beyond the scope, Your 10 Honor. 11 THE COURT: Sustained. 12 Q (By Mr. Vickery) Considering all that 13 Dr. Neal knew, are you critical of him for prematurely 14 releasing Mr. Forsyth or critical of someone else? 15 A. Well, I believe that he was not -- 16 MR. SEE: Your Honor -- 17 THE WITNESS: -- well informed. 18 MR. SEE: The witness is now testifying on 19 matters that are beyond the scope. 20 THE COURT: Sustained. 21 Q (By Mr. Vickery) Okay. Let's go on to 22 something else. Let's talk about this religious 23 pressure for a minute. Are you aware of any evidence, 24 anywhere, any document, any testimony to indicate that 25 Mrs. Forsyth directly or indirectly placed any PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1433 1 religious pressure on Bill Forsyth after, listen 2 carefully, after his conversion experience of 3 January 26, 1993? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Now, Mr. See asked you yesterday about the FDA. 6 You remember he showed you a big blowup of what the 7 FDA did in response to a petition of some 8 scientologists to ban Prozac? Remember that? 9 A. Yes, indeed. 10 Q. As part of your opinion in this case, did you 11 consider the documents, that the jury will have 12 available to them, that showed the nature of the 13 relationship between Lilly and the FDA? 14 MR. SEE: Objection, Your Honor. It's beyond 15 the scope of the report. 16 THE COURT: Sustained. 17 MR. VICKERY: Your Honor, it's not beyond the 18 scope of the report. His report specifically 19 chronicles these documents and Mr. See asked him -- 20 MR. SEE: Your Honor, may I just ask that we 21 approach at side bar? 22 THE COURT: Let's have it at side bar. 23 (Whereupon, the following proceedings were had 24 at side bar out of the hearing of the jury.) 25 MR. VICKERY: Judge, I can't try my case if I PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1434 1 can't respond to the things that Mr. See raises in my 2 cross-examination. That's the whole purpose of 3 redirect. He put up this big blowup yesterday about 4 what the FDA did or did not do, and this man said in 5 his report that he considered these documents and you 6 know -- 7 THE COURT: What are you referring to? What 8 went up yesterday about the FDA? 9 MR. VICKERY: Mr. See put up a big blowup. I 10 think it was Exhibit 1167. A big blowup of an FDA 11 talk paper where they denied a scientology petition, 12 and he asked this witness about it. 13 MR. SEE: I asked Dr. Shlensky if he was aware 14 that the FDA had considered this evidence in case 15 reports and so on, and he said he wasn't sure. And I 16 showed him the blowup that the FDA has considered this 17 and determined there is no connection between Prozac 18 and suicide. It went to causation. 19 MR. VICKERY: And that's what I want to respond 20 to. 21 THE COURT: What is it that you want to respond 22 to? 23 MR. VICKERY: What I want to respond to is the 24 reasons why he said that he doesn't put credence in 25 what the FDA said. The fact that the documents PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1435 1 reflect a very cozy relationship between Lilly and the 2 FDA; that those documents were part of his opinion 3 from the get-go that were listed in his report; that 4 he was questioned about in his deposition, and I 5 simply can't respond to Mr. See's cross-examination 6 with redirect if the Court ties my hands behind my 7 back. 8 MR. SEE: I'll specifically respond to that, 9 Your Honor. Number one, it is most certainly not in 10 the report, and in the second place, I'll find the 11 deposition references if Your Honor would like to see 12 them, but I will tell you that I asked Dr. Shlensky 13 about the internal workings of the FDA. Well, his 14 response was, I don't know. I asked him what do you 15 know about the regulations of the warnings? He said, 16 I don't know. 17 THE COURT: I do recall that. 18 MR. SEE: And there's no FDA information that 19 I'm going to talk about that the FDA did or didn't do 20 or anything like that in this report. He says he's 21 going to talk about warnings and causation. 22 THE COURT: Can you point out anything about 23 the FDA in his report? 24 MR. VICKERY: No, sir. She was just showing it 25 to me. I can't. I know that we have provided some PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1436 1 documents to him, but what I'm saying to the Court is 2 I think it's unfair for Mr. See to expand the scope of 3 inquiry with his cross-examination, and then for the 4 Court to preclude me with the redirect from addressing 5 those very matters that Mr. See has chosen to cross 6 him on. 7 That's the real gist of my impatience. I'm 8 sure the Court can see I'm a little impatient about 9 it, and I apologize for that, Judge. When Mr. See 10 expands into other areas with cross-examination and 11 the Court says, oh, Mr. Vickery, you can't do that, 12 then it really ties my hands behind my back. 13 MR. SEE: The question was with respect to 14 causation, and I think he can ask whatever causation 15 question. Now he's not asking about a causation 16 question. 17 THE COURT: You can question him on causation 18 with respect to the FDA. 19 MR. VICKERY: Okay. I'll do that. 20 (Whereupon, the following proceedings were had 21 in open court in the presence of the jury.) 22 Q (By Mr. Vickery) Dr. Shlensky, you were asked 23 yesterday about a determination that the FDA had made 24 in response to a citizen petition, okay? Do you put 25 any credence in what the FDA said back in 1991 about PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1437 1 the causation of whether this drug causes suicide or 2 violence? 3 A. Well, it's a problem for me because the FDA, 4 like the IRS, is dependent on information -- 5 MR. SEE: Your Honor, it goes to the topic we 6 were just talking about at side bar. 7 THE COURT: Overruled. 8 Q (By Mr. Vickery) You can continue. 9 A. The FDA does not do studies itself ordinarily. 10 They rely upon information provided to -- for 11 instance, with regard to Prozac, the FDA has to rely 12 on information from the people that are manufacturing 13 the drug and who are trying to determine the 14 effectiveness and dangers of the drug, and so they get 15 their information from Eli Lilly. And I have good 16 reason to believe that some of the information 17 provided to them is not accurate, so I don't -- 18 MR. SEE: I object. 19 THE COURT: Sustained. 20 MR. SEE: I object. It calls for speculation. 21 I ask that the Court strike that part of the witness' 22 answer. 23 THE COURT: That part of the answer will be 24 stricken. 25 Q (By Mr. Vickery) One more question. Another PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1438 1 deposition issue. Look with me, if you would, to 2 Page 67. 3 A. Page 67. Okay. 4 Q. Bear with me just a minute, Dr. Shlensky, while 5 you're getting that page. You see where Mr. See has 6 written here under Dr. Shlensky, "Nihilism, 7 pessimistic view," that was based on him asking you a 8 question on Page 67, and I want to -- I want you to 9 look at the sequence immediately following that 10 question on Line 18, and I will just, as the Court 11 instructed before, read the colloquy. You said to 12 him -- 13 MR. SEE: Your Honor, if I may. I object to 14 the hearsay reading of the witness' deposition. He's 15 here to testify in person. It's improper impeachment. 16 It's improper rehabilitation. 17 MR. VICKERY: It was improper impeachment when 18 Mr. See tried to do it because his answer was 19 consistent, Your Honor. 20 THE COURT: Well, just a minute. That doesn't 21 seem to go to the rule of completeness, Mr. Vickery, 22 so proceed as normal rather than reading the 23 deposition. 24 Q (By Mr. Vickery) Okay. Did you correct what 25 you told Mr. See and tell him that this man wasn't PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1439 1 really nihilistic? Do you believe that this man was 2 nihilistic before he was on Prozac? 3 A. Well, actually nihilism is simply a point of 4 view of a depressed person. So if he -- you know, 5 there's reason to believe that he was put on Prozac 6 because he was depressed. 7 Q. Okay. 8 A. So it's an outlook on things, really. 9 Q. So anybody, I guess, that's depressed is 10 probably nihilistic? 11 A. Well, if you have a substantial depression, 12 then you're -- one of the things that's affected by it 13 is your point of view. 14 MR. VICKERY: Very well. Thank you, sir. 15 MR. SEE: Nothing further, Your Honor. Thank 16 you, Dr. Shlensky. 17 THE COURT: Thank you. You're excused. Next 18 witness. 19 MR. VICKERY: Yes. We call Dr. Tom Brady. 20 THE CLERK: Please raise your right hand. 21 THOMAS F. BRADY, Ph.D., 22 called as a witness on behalf of the Plaintiffs, after 23 having been first duly sworn to tell the truth, the 24 whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was examined 25 and testified as follows: PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1440 1 THE CLERK: Please be seated. Please state 2 your name and spell your last name. 3 THE WITNESS: My name is Thomas F. Brady, 4 B-R-A-D-Y. 5 DIRECT EXAMINATION 6 BY MR. VICKERY: 7 Q. Good morning, Dr. Brady. 8 A. Good morning. 9 Q. Thank you for waiting patiently to get here. 10 Tell us where you live, sir. 11 A. I live in Dana Point, California. 12 Q. How long have you lived in California? 13 A. A total of 27 years. 14 Q. Now, when I summoned you to the stand, I said 15 we call a fellow named Dr. Tom Brady. Do you hold a 16 doctorate degree? 17 A. Yes, I do. 18 Q. In what field? 19 A. In psychology. 20 Q. Where did you get that education? 21 A. From Arizona State University. 22 Q. Are you what is called a clinical psychologist? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And can you explain for these folks what a 25 clinical psychologist does? PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1441 1 A. Yes. Well, a clinical psychologist works in a 2 variety of areas. They work in areas of counseling 3 and psychotherapy. They also do pain management and a 4 number of other specialties that have arisen within 5 clinical psychology itself, including forensic 6 psychology. 7 Q. Are you now retired? 8 A. I am retired, yes. 9 Q. In the nineties -- let's just take the early 10 nineties, until the time that you retired, what was 11 the nature of your clinical practice? 12 A. Primarily I did individual psychotherapy and 13 marriage and family therapy. 14 Q. And how long did you do that, say, before the 15 nineties? Give us a feel for your practice. 16 A. I worked -- initially, my first position was as 17 a professor at the University of South Dakota, and 18 then I went to Viola University in Southern California 19 and began a private practice in 1971. 20 Q. Okay, sir. So from 1971 until '92, when you 21 saw Bill and June Forsyth, was the nature of your 22 clinical practice what you described to us? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Did you meet the Forsyths in a social context 25 before you met them in a professional context? PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1442 1 A. Yes, I did. 2 Q. Tell us about the background of that. How did 3 it happen? 4 A. Well, we had a mutual friend by the name of 5 Bobbie Comstock, actually, her husband, Jim and Bobbie 6 Comstock, on Maui. The Comstocks and I, we often 7 traded our cabin and the condominium that they had -- 8 as a matter of fact, when I first met them I was 9 staying at the Comstock's condominium in 19 -- in June 10 of '92. And I need to -- 11 Q. You're here on a swap, staying in the 12 Comstocks' condo, right? 13 A. That's right. 14 Q. Were the Comstocks there? 15 A. The Comstocks were not there at that time, and 16 one of the things that they suggested to me was that I 17 might want to get to know the Forsyths, and 18 subsequently, I did meet Bill and June Forsyth. 19 Q. All right, sir. Now, that's June of '92, and 20 we all know by now that sometime the next month, Bill 21 left suddenly and went to California? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Now, when he was there, after he had been there 24 a while, did he contact you in a professional 25 capacity? PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1443 1 A. Yes, he did. 2 Q. Tell us approximately when that happened. 3 A. That would have been the second week in 4 September that he called to make an appointment. 5 Q. What did he tell you? Why did he need your 6 services? 7 A. Well, initially he didn't tell me anything. He 8 just said he wanted to come in and see me, and on that 9 first contact, he called and cancelled that 10 appointment, but then when he came in, he told me that 11 he had left Maui and he had left his wife June at that 12 time. 13 Q. And when was the date of that first visit? 14 A. September 19th. 15 Q. Okay, sir. And what was his goals that he was 16 telling you that he wanted to do? I mean, why did he 17 need the services of someone like you? 18 A. Well, he was in the process of trying to decide 19 whether or not to get a divorce, and also, he wanted 20 to make some plans for his future at that time and 21 just to have someone to discuss these issues with. 22 Q. Did you and he have, what folks in your field 23 call, a good therapeutic relationship? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And tell us what that means, to have a good PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1444 1 therapeutic relationship. 2 A. I think initially, Bill, because of the strong 3 feelings that he had and some of the experiences that 4 he was having, really wanted to talk about the issues, 5 and I think that our relationship, which had begun on 6 Maui, I had had dinner with him that one evening, was 7 such that he was comfortable with me and I certainly 8 was comfortable with him. 9 Q. Did you all meet in a fairly intense manner 10 starting on September 19th and continuing for some 11 weeks thereafter? 12 A. Yes. Bill wanted to work as much as he could 13 in a short period of time, so I would meet with him 14 for a double session once or twice a week. 15 Q. So what's a typical session? 16 A. A typical session for me would be 50 minutes to 17 an hour, and so we would meet for an hour and a half 18 to two hours. 19 Q. Twice a week? 20 A. Twice a week. 21 Q. In a typical setting, does one merely come in 22 once a week for the 50 minutes? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. So he's like getting four times the normal dose 25 of therapy? PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1445 1 A. That's true. 2 Q. And tell us, if you would -- I'm not going to 3 go through each entry. Mr. See can do that if he 4 wants to, but tell us about the progress from mid 5 September to late October when you were just dealing 6 with Bill. 7 A. Initially Bill had a lot to say about the 8 relationship between him and June, and he began to 9 relax as we continued our work. He was able to tell 10 me about the history, about his feelings, and 11 ultimately, got into the sense that he wondered if 12 maybe it would be possible for us to work with June as 13 well if she were willing to come over to California. 14 Q. Was he that initiated that notion or you? 15 A. It was he. 16 Q. Okay. Now, were there some things that -- 17 before he got to that point, okay, were there some 18 anger and resentment that he wanted to get off his 19 chest with you? 20 A. Well, yes. Initially, he talked to me about 21 the concerns that he had in his relationship with 22 June, and it was five years previous that some things 23 had happened between the two of them, and really this 24 was the basis of a lot of unresolved conflict that the 25 two of them had. He talked about -- PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1446 1 Q. Let me stop you there a minute, Dr. Brady. In 2 those five years since this had happened -- and let's 3 put it in context. Is the thing that started that 4 five-year period, her coming to him with kind of a 5 list of grievances, if you will? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And in the five years since that had happened, 8 had they ever worked together, with someone like you, 9 to try to work through those issues? 10 A. I believe that they may have. He did talk 11 about having had some previous counseling, and just 12 what the nature of that was, I don't know. 13 Q. Okay. Now, tell us, if you will, what were 14 some of these issues that he wanted to address? 15 A. Okay. Well, the primary thrust of what he 16 wanted to talk about was the experience that he had 17 five years previous to coming in, and this is what he 18 called his catalog of grievances or his catalog of 19 complaints. And, basically, what had happened during 20 that time between June and Bill is that June came to 21 him and began to talk about all of the concerns that 22 she'd had that dated all the way back to the beginning 23 of their marriage, and Bill said he was overwhelmed by 24 some of these things. 25 She was concerned about communications, she was PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1447 1 concerned that she didn't get enough attention from 2 Bill, that he wasn't there for her, these kinds of 3 things, and Bill, for his part, was, I think a word he 4 used, he was devastated. He thought that his marriage 5 was fine. He thought that everything was good. He 6 had looked upon his marriage as being as healthy as it 7 could be. 8 Q. Let me stop you and ask you something there. 9 Did the catalog of grievances include anything about 10 religious issues? 11 A. Not at that time at all. No, not five years 12 previous. 13 Q. Okay, sir. Did you help him with a better -- 14 achieve a better understanding himself of the catalog 15 of grievances, how his wife was feeling, and how he 16 could respond to that in a positive and constructive 17 way? 18 A. Well, I think I tried to let him know that when 19 we would have the opportunity to speak with June, and 20 he had begun to talk about that by that time, that 21 there could be a process of communication where we 22 would be able to work on those things, yes. 23 Q. Okay, sir. Now, do you recall when it was that 24 he initiated the idea of asking June over to join you 25 in joint sessions? PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1448 1 A. If I'm not mistaken, it was somewhere in the 2 middle of October. 3 Q. Can you tell us a precise date by your records 4 or get us as close to it as you can? 5 A. The date that comes to mind is about 6 October 19th, somewhere in there. 7 Q. Okay, sir. And when does June show up for her 8 first visit? 9 A. That was on October the 29th of '92. 10 Q. Okay. These dates are kind of important, so 11 I'm going to write them up here. What was the first 12 date that he visited you? September what? 13 A. September 19th. I'm sorry, September 18th. 14 Q. Eighteenth. 15 THE COURT: Well, while you're writing, let's 16 take a 15-minute break. Please be back at five to 17 eleven. 18 (Whereupon, a recess was taken at 10:35 a.m.) 19 THE COURT: Please proceed, Mr. Vickery. 20 MR. VICKERY: Thank you, Your Honor. 21 Q. Dr. Brady, I have listed some dates here over 22 the course of the break, not that anyone can read my 23 writing, but 10/19, I believe you told us right before 24 the break, was when Bill suggested that you all invite 25 June to come join? PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1449 1 A. It would be somewhere in that time frame, yes. 2 Q. Now, other evidence that has already been 3 discussed establishes that on October the 23rd, four 4 days later, that Bill got a prescription from 5 Dr. Hawley, his family doctor there, for Xanax. Did 6 you suggest that he go get a prescription for Xanax? 7 A. No. That was something that he did on his own. 8 Q. Did he share with you that he had, indeed, 9 gotten a prescription for anxiety medicine? 10 A. Yes, he did. 11 Q. And was there anything surprising to you, given 12 where you were in the process, having been through the 13 intense periods for, I guess, a little over a month 14 then, and having his wife come join him, is there 15 anything surprising about him being a little anxious 16 about that? 17 A. No, not at all. He was anxious at that point 18 for the opportunity to talk to June, but also very 19 concerned about the confrontation style that he might 20 have had with her. 21 Q. Okay. What happened when she first got there? 22 Was everything lovey-dovey, hunky-dory, or was there 23 some conflict that you had to work with? 24 A. There was definitely conflict. They would 25 space themselves from one another, distance themselves PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1450 1 from one another in the offices, and as we proceeded, 2 that began to change. 3 Q. Was there anything about their body language, 4 other than the distance between them, that told you, 5 as a trained therapist, what feelings you had to deal 6 with on behalf of both of these spouses? 7 A. Well, June was more open, but Bill, you know, 8 would distance himself and have his arms in front of 9 him to keep the distance. 10 Q. Okay. Now, did you continue to see them on the 11 same kind of a schedule, double sessions twice a week 12 for the next few weeks? 13 A. Well, there were a variety of things that 14 happened during that period of time. One of the 15 things that I did was I spent some time with June 16 alone, just as I had done with Bill, so that she would 17 have an opportunity to get to know me on that basis, 18 because here I had been working with Bill intensely 19 for over a month, and she didn't know who I was other 20 than that initial meeting that we had, and there would 21 certainly be the expectation that anyone would have in 22 those circumstances, that Bill and I would have a 23 relationship and that she might be the odd man out. 24 So I spent some time with her individually, 25 getting to know her, getting to know what her concerns PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1451 1 were, getting to know a little bit about her history, 2 her family growing up, her family of origin, and 3 establishing a relationship, basically, with June and 4 she very quickly warmed up to the situation, was very 5 happy to be able to be there and to have this 6 opportunity to work things through with Bill. 7 Q. Okay, sir. Did you do that before you had any 8 joint sessions or after the first joint session or how 9 did that -- 10 A. Before. 11 Q. Before? 12 A. Before. And Bill was very comfortable with 13 that. 14 Q. And approximately how many sessions did you 15 have with June getting to know her and establishing a 16 therapeutic relationship before you got together 17 jointly? 18 A. Well, once again, intensely, probably just the 19 week. That would have been two -- four total sessions 20 if you count the double sessions. 21 Q. Okay, sir. Then how did the joint therapy 22 progress? Can you just give us, if you will, your 23 recollection of the progression of that therapy? 24 A. Well, I mentioned to you that there were the 25 catalog of complaints that Bill had, and one of the PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1452 1 things that I said to both of them is that whatever 2 was discussed with us individually would become grist 3 for the mill of the conjoint therapy, but that's 4 something that I say to people, but I don't always 5 hold them to that, but in Bill's case and in June's 6 case, everything that they discussed with me, they 7 openly brought to the conjoint sessions, which was a 8 very positive sign. 9 Q. Let me make sure we understand that. Stuff 10 that each of them had shared with you in private -- 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. -- they then shared jointly with all of you 13 there? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. Did you deem that to be a healthy sign? 16 A. Yes, it was a very healthy sign. 17 Q. Why? 18 A. Well, because, generally speaking, people have 19 a tendency to be more candid, more direct in 20 individual sessions with what their concerns are, and 21 when they meet with their spouse, they're a little 22 more careful, they're a little more circumspect in the 23 way they share things, but in Bill's case, that wasn't 24 the case at all and neither was it in June's. 25 Q. Okay, sir. What kind of issues did you work PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1453 1 on? Let's talk about the catalog of complaints first. 2 What were the catalog of complaints? 3 A. Well, Bill was not very articulate about that. 4 He just would talk about the fact that there were all 5 of these things that she brought up for all of the 6 years previous to that to the time that they had this 7 confrontation; that, basically, she wasn't there for 8 him, he had spent all of his time building up the 9 business and these sorts of things, and he had thought 10 that that was okay with her. She had been supportive. 11 Their emotional life, he thought was okay. Their 12 sexual life was okay, but from her perspective, there 13 were lots and lots of things that she felt Bill missed 14 on, and so she had shared those with him. 15 In the process of therapy, he was able to share 16 what some of those feelings were, and they talked 17 about it and June asked for his forgiveness on the 18 basis of having dropped all of that on him at that one 19 time. She realized that what she should have done 20 was, during those previous years, she should have 21 brought those to him as they were happening, so she 22 recognized her responsibility in that to him. And for 23 his part, he talked about the fact that he had 24 withdrawn and he had pulled away after that 25 confrontation, and he had asked her forgiveness for PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1454 1 that as well. 2 And so, basically, they worked through the 3 issues and got some closure on that five-year period 4 of events. 5 Q. Dr. Brady, in those sessions, either individual 6 sessions or joint sessions, was there ever a hint, 7 even a hint, of any concern or problem about domestic 8 violence from either of them? 9 A. No. None at all. 10 Q. Is that something that you, as a therapist, are 11 trained to look for? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Is that something that, indeed, you are 14 empowered by the State of California to look for in 15 individuals, whether they're a danger to themselves or 16 others? 17 A. Yes. I didn't mention to you, but the position 18 that I hold in the State of California is that of a 19 certification review officer, which is to be in the 20 decision point when someone has been hospitalized by 21 the State or by the police or what have you, on a 22 72-hour hold involuntarily. 23 After 72 hours, in the State of California, 24 it's mandated that there is a hearing to see if the 25 person needs to continue for an additional 14 days, PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1455 1 and I was a hearing officer for those kinds of 2 hearings. And people are continued to be held on the 3 basis of great disability, danger to others, or danger 4 to self, and these were decisions that I helped make. 5 Q. How many years had you been making those kinds 6 of certifications before you began to treat Bill and 7 June Forsyth? 8 A. Approximately 15 years. 9 Q. Okay. Now, Dr. Brady, we have heard lots and 10 lots in this trial about religion and religious 11 differences between Bill and June. Would you just 12 give us your impression of where each of them were at 13 the start of the process and where they were at the 14 end of the process on that topic? 15 A. When I started to tell you about my treatment 16 with the Forsyths, I mentioned this catalog of 17 complaints. The second area had to do with the 18 religious life that the family had, and Bill had some 19 concerns about the fact that June spent so much time 20 in Christian work and endeavors. June had a women's 21 Bible study, I believe, in her home. She attended 22 church regularly. Bill attended church with her much 23 of that time, but he was concerned that she would talk 24 about these issues, about Christian issues and 25 Christian life issues with him so much, that she spent PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1456 1 so much time reading these materials and issues 2 related to that. 3 Q. Did he ever express any resentment for his 4 wife's faith? I mean, did he ever want her to change 5 being who she was or what faith she had? 6 A. That was not the impression I got. As a matter 7 of fact, towards the end of our work, he made it very 8 clear that he did not want to change her spiritual 9 walk in any manner at all. He just didn't want it to 10 be the total center of her life and their life 11 together. 12 Q. Was there ever any indication that either she 13 felt that she wanted to change him or that he felt 14 pressured by her that, you know, like she was 15 arm-twisting him into making some religious decision 16 that he didn't want to make? 17 A. I don't know that he talked about it that 18 directly. There might have been a sense that he had 19 that that's what she would wish for him; that somehow 20 through her talking about these issues and about 21 having the literature available for him to see or the 22 tapes for him to hear, that he might come to a 23 position closer to hers. 24 Q. Okay. Did you -- in that context, did you see 25 him respond in anger towards her concern for his PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1457 1 religious walk? 2 A. For his religious walk? 3 Q. Yes. I mean, was it like, dang-gummit, Bill, I 4 want you to have a better relationship with God? 5 Anything like that? 6 A. No. I didn't get any indication like that from 7 her or from him. 8 Q. Where were they at the end of the therapeutic 9 sessions? I believe December 4th was your last one, 10 right? 11 A. On this issue? 12 Q. Yes, sir. Where were they on this issue at the 13 end of the process? 14 A. June was perfectly willing to make a change in 15 churches. Because one of the issues had to do with 16 the pastor of that church, that Bill did not like him 17 and didn't like his style, and so he didn't want to 18 continue at that church, and June, at that time, was 19 in agreement. She had had some concerns about the 20 pastor as well, so it was not a major thing for her. 21 She was perfectly willing to worship at a more 22 traditional church if that's what Bill wanted to do. 23 Q. Okay, sir. Now, how about with respect to all 24 of their other issues, where were they at the end of 25 the therapeutic process on December 4th of 1992? PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1458 1 A. There was another area of concern and that had 2 to do with the relationship with their children, Bill, 3 Jr. and Susan. For Bill's part, he wanted to have a 4 better relationship with his son, and for June's part, 5 she wanted to have a better relationship with Susan. 6 And they felt like -- 7 Q. Let me stop you right there a minute, 8 Dr. Brady. Is that uncommon in your experience, that 9 the father would want a better relationship with the 10 son and the mother would want to redefine her 11 relationship with her daughter? 12 A. Well, it's not exactly gender specific like. 13 Sometimes it can be a father with a daughter as well, 14 so... But it's not unusual for parents to have 15 different issues with their children. 16 Q. Okay. I interrupted you. Tell us, if you 17 would then, how that issue was worked through and 18 where they came to on the subject of the relationship 19 with their children by December 4th. 20 A. I think that there was some tension with regard 21 to both Bill and June with how they were feeling 22 towards their children. I think Bill maybe felt 23 protective of Bill -- I'm sorry, June felt protective 24 of Bill, Jr. and his relationship to his father, 25 and -- but then at the same time, she was also PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1459 1 concerned about Susan, talking about the fact that she 2 was working hard in her position, but also had to 3 manage a lot of properties and felt like that that was 4 too much. 5 So there was some tension around some of those 6 issues, as I understood it, at that time. But they 7 had made the decision that they were not going to 8 allow that to get in the way of their happiness and 9 tensions about those kinds of issues interfere. 10 Q. Okay. How would you describe the state of 11 their marital relationship on December 4, 1992, when 12 you had your last visit with them? 13 A. Well, you know, I think it can really be summed 14 up in what began to happen in those last sessions. 15 They had made -- there was one other issue as to 16 whether or not they would stay in -- on Maui, and they 17 had talked about the possibility of moving to Palm 18 Springs. They had actually gone so far as to go to 19 Palm Springs on one of the weekends between sessions 20 to look at some property and they had come back and 21 told me that there was certainly a possibility for 22 them to move back. They had lived there before or had 23 a place in Palm Springs before. 24 What began to happen towards the end of the 25 sessions is that, rather than certainly the distance PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1460 1 that I initially saw and the body language that I saw, 2 they were sitting closer and occasionally, I think, 3 holding hands, and so their relationship was very 4 solid. 5 They had had -- at that point, they had had, I 6 use the phrase of freshening of intimacy. They had a 7 sexual life together again and were enjoying each 8 other's company. They were going to theater, a 9 variety of things. 10 Q. And making these plans for the future? 11 A. For the future. 12 Q. Okay. Dr. Brady, after December 4 of 1992, did 13 you ever have the opportunity to talk to either June 14 or Bill again? 15 A. Yes, there were two occasions. One was that 16 they had called just to let me know how things were 17 going and they both stated, I think this was in 18 January, that things were going fine and they were 19 looking forward to, perhaps, coming to have a 20 follow-up meeting with me later on in the winter. 21 Q. Okay, sir. 22 A. And then the second time -- 23 Q. What was the second one? 24 A. -- I'm not sure of the date of that, but 25 probably several weeks before -- no more than two PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1461 1 weeks before he was hospitalized, he had called asking 2 if I had any recommendations for hospitals in Southern 3 California and what would the cost be if he were to 4 come to the hospital. He was concerned about, the way 5 he expressed it to me at that time, was his Xanax 6 addiction. He viewed himself as being addicted to 7 Xanax. 8 Q. And did you give him some suggestions for 9 places in California where he could go to try to get 10 off the Xanax? 11 A. I gave -- I told him about one place that I 12 knew of at that time, and I'm not sure if -- it was 13 the Miramar Clinics, and I knew that the cost would be 14 approximately a thousand dollars a day to go into the 15 hospital and I shared that with him. 16 Q. And what was his response? 17 A. He felt that was too high. 18 Q. Okay. Let me ask you about that, Dr. Brady. 19 We've heard testimony, and it's been emphasized by 20 Lilly's counsel that he wanted to go in the hospital 21 before he ever took Prozac, and then we've also heard 22 testimony about two days after he took Prozac that he 23 insisted on going that day. 24 When he talked to you about the possibility of 25 going in the hospital to get off Xanax, was there any PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1462 1 real urgency or immediacy, like, I've got to go today, 2 you know, give me the name of a hospital, I've got to 3 get there today, any of that? 4 A. No. I didn't experience that with him at all, 5 no. 6 Q. Did he even talk to you about a time frame of 7 when he might come from Maui to the Mainland in order 8 to go into the hospital to get off Xanax? 9 A. No, he didn't. One of the things that I 10 recommended to him was that he really needed to see a 11 psychiatrist to talk about the Xanax addiction 12 because, from my perspective in looking it up in the 13 PDR and so on, although I'm not an expert at all on 14 medication, he was taking just the minimal dosage of 15 Xanax. 16 Q. Okay. Dr. Brady, would it be fair, from your 17 perspective, based on all you knew about these people, 18 for anyone to stand in this room and claim that after 19 December 4, 1992, Bill and June Forsyth had a broken 20 marriage? 21 MR. SEE: Objection. No foundation. The 22 witness has testified that he didn't see them after 23 that day. 24 MR. VICKERY: He's talked to them twice after 25 that, Your Honor. PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1463 1 THE COURT: Up to the -- well, to the extent 2 that he can answer it on the basis of his telephone 3 calls, I will allow the question. 4 THE WITNESS: Would you rephrase your question? 5 Q (By Mr. Vickery) Sure. Is there -- would it 6 be fair, based on all you know about these people, 7 including your therapeutic visits and the telephone 8 conversations you had, two of them in 1993, for 9 someone to stand in this room and say their marriage 10 was broken? 11 MR. SEE: My objection now is to the form, Your 12 Honor. It's argumentative. 13 THE COURT: Sustained. I think you better 14 rephrase that. 15 Q (By Mr. Vickery) Dr. Brady, do you believe 16 their marriage was broken on December 4th? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Do you believe their marriage was broken when 19 you talked to them on the telephone in January? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Do you believe their marriage was broken when 22 you talked to him approximately two weeks before he 23 went into the Castle Medical Center? 24 A. No. 25 MR. VICKERY: Thank you. I pass the witness. PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1464 1 THE COURT: Mr. See. 2 MR. SEE: Thank you, Your Honor. 3 CROSS-EXAMINATION 4 BY MR. SEE: 5 Q. Good morning, Dr. Brady. 6 A. Good morning. 7 Q. If you would just give me one minute, I need to 8 set this up. 9 A. Okay. 10 Q. Dr. Brady, I've got some blowups that are made 11 from some of your notes. 12 MR. SEE: If I may approach the witness, Your 13 Honor? 14 THE COURT: You may. What exhibit number? 15 MR. SEE: Dr. Brady's chart is 1008. 16 THE COURT: Thank you. 17 MR. SEE: And the small copies of the blowups 18 should be in an envelope in the back. If I may 19 approach, Your Honor? 20 THE COURT: You may. 21 Q (By Mr. See) I'll hand you small copies of 22 these blowups because the way we have to set it up 23 here, it's hard for you to see at the same time the 24 jury is. 25 And do you have your chart there in front of PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1465 1 you, sir? 2 A. I do. 3 Q. First of all, Dr. Brady, if I could just ask 4 you some preliminary questions. From the history you 5 got from Mr. Forsyth, you understood that he and his 6 wife had separated back in 1991? 7 A. That's correct. 8 Q. And then you understood they had reconciled for 9 a time? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And then you understood that they had separated 12 again in 1992? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And it was during this separation that 15 Mr. Forsyth had come to see you? 16 A. That's correct. 17 Q. I'm going to put up the first blowup which 18 corresponds to September 18 of 1992. I think you said 19 that was your first visit with Mr. Forsyth by himself, 20 correct? 21 A. That's correct. 22 Q. Now, so that we all can understand, because 23 some of us may not have been to a therapist, the way 24 the procedure goes is the person who is coming in for 25 counseling sort of tells the therapist what the PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1466 1 problem is and then there may be interviews, sort of 2 proceeding by question and answer, to get out of the 3 person, the history and if there's a relationship 4 problem, or whatever the problem is. It sort of goes 5 like that? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Now, although we didn't blow it up, there's the 8 notation "PP"? 9 A. That's correct. 10 Q. And that means what? 11 A. Presenting problem. 12 Q. So that would be the main issue that the 13 patient was coming to see you about? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. And then when you record that, that's, 16 essentially, what the patient tells you what the 17 problem is that they perceive? 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. And Mr. Forsyth did that with you and indicated 20 to you that the problem was that his relationship with 21 his wife had been deteriorating for the past five 22 years? 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. And then he gave you some general history 25 indicating that, although, it had been a long time in PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1467 1 the past, he had had a drinking problem sometime back? 2 A. That's right. 3 Q. And then also indicated to you that, as he 4 described it himself, he was a workaholic who had 5 built up a car rental company around the Los Angeles 6 airport? 7 A. That's correct. 8 Q. And again, as he described it himself, had come 9 to the realization that during that time when he was 10 working all the time, he simply had not paid enough 11 attention to his home life? 12 A. That's correct. 13 Q. Now, the next entry we have on the blowup here 14 is, "Good relationship in early years, but said I 15 wasn't meeting her needs." Now, that would be what 16 Mr. Forsyth related to you? 17 A. Yes. His perspective was that he had a good 18 relationship. His wife was working with him in all 19 the kinds of things that he wanted to do to build up 20 his business and supportive in all ways, but during 21 this -- during that confrontation, she said that she 22 wasn't meeting her needs -- she said that he was not 23 meeting her needs. 24 Q. So the first part of this sentence is really 25 Bill's perspective on what the marriage was, and he PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1468 1 thought everything was great? 2 A. That's correct. 3 Q. And learned during this emotional visit that 4 they had about the catalog of grievances, that from 5 June's point of view, the marriage was not as he 6 thought, but from her view, he was not meeting her 7 needs? 8 A. That's correct. 9 Q. So this last part would be June's perspective, 10 right? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And then he gave some further description about 13 that meeting where the catalog of grievances was 14 discussed, and that's the entries we have here? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. "Five years ago, broke down and cried. Talked 17 for two hours." And then the quotations were, Bill 18 Forsyth was telling you that June had said that he had 19 not been there for her? 20 A. That's right. 21 Q. Was that the description, as he heard it, that 22 his wife was indicating that he had not been -- had 23 not provided the emotional side of the marriage as she 24 wanted to have it? 25 A. Yes. PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1469 1 Q. And then "grievances cataloged," and that's 2 when June presented Mr. Forsyth with the issues she 3 had, sort of, saved up through this marriage and let 4 him have it? 5 A. That was the way he experienced it. 6 Q. He says, "Very emotional, couldn't believe, 7 couldn't handle it. Talked divorce and got 8 counseling." Now, when Mr. Forsyth indicated to you 9 that he couldn't handle it, was that his statement to 10 you that he simply was unable to emotionally deal with 11 that presentation of all of those conflicts all at 12 once? 13 A. I don't know. A word that he used was that he 14 was devastated when this -- when this came about 15 because he thought his marriage was fine. 16 Q. So this came as a total surprise to him? 17 A. That's right. 18 Q. And, really, the surprise aspect of it really 19 made the impact hit harder? 20 A. Well, as he said, he broke down and cried. 21 Q. Now, is it correct that Mr. Forsyth, then, also 22 told you that since this time, that their marriage had 23 begun to cool, their relationship was cool? 24 A. That's the word he used. 25 Q. Now, is it correct, from your understanding, PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1470 1 from getting this information from Mr. Forsyth, that 2 his visit to you in September of 1992, during this 3 second separation, related to the same issues that had 4 existed at the time of the catalog of grievances? 5 A. The catalog of grievances and then the fact 6 that their life, as it was currently being 7 experienced, wasn't very satisfying to him because of 8 the coolness and the coldness. 9 Q. And, in fact, Mr. Forsyth termed their 10 relationship; that is, he with his wife, "the cold 11 war"; isn't that right? 12 A. That's exactly right. 13 Q. And was an aspect of this cold war type 14 relationship that Mr. Forsyth described to you, that 15 he simply was unable to take the pressure and conflict 16 with his wife and, therefore, kind of withdrew from 17 her? 18 A. That's right. 19 Q. Now, part of the -- is it correct that part of 20 the relationship problem that Mr. Forsyth related to 21 you had to do with his wife's style; that is, how she 22 spoke and how she communicated, that sort of thing? 23 A. I'm not sure that it was how. Certainly the 24 content and some of the issues, and the how would 25 include the fact that June was a verbal lady. She was PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1471 1 able to speak about things in an articulate way, and 2 Bill didn't have the words. 3 Q. So would it be correct that, as you learned it 4 from Mr. Forsyth, one of the things that contributed 5 to his inability to handle the conflict with his wife 6 was, in fact, her verbal abilities; that is, she could 7 be a powerful talker? 8 A. Powerful in the sense that she had her -- she 9 had her ideas and the content of her ideas and wanted 10 to share that, and I think that that's what would 11 overwhelm him, that she could continue to talk and she 12 would have -- she would have a list particularly when 13 she would talk -- when she talked about the catalog of 14 grievances. 15 Q. Did one of the things that Mr. Forsyth told 16 you -- going to the subject of religion for just a 17 second. He did indicate that that was -- that that 18 was at this time and had been a source of conflict 19 between them? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And was one of his descriptions that, as he saw 22 it, that he felt June had become a sort of 23 hyper-Christian who was forcing him to respond to 24 Christ in the same way that she did? 25 A. I think that that would have been how he saw PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1472 1 that, yes. 2 Q. I was taking that off your set of notes here 3 that you made. 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And that was an accurate reflection -- 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. -- of what he related to you, correct? 8 A. I think that word hyper-Christian was mine, not 9 his. 10 Q. Okay. But the following thought, that she was 11 forcing him to respond to Christ in the same way that 12 she did, that's the way he felt about it or, at least, 13 as he described it to you? 14 A. That she would want him to have the same 15 experience -- religious experience that she had had. 16 Q. Now, I'm just looking at your notes. You did 17 use the word "forcing him to respond," and I just 18 wanted to -- 19 A. That was his experience. 20 Q. That was the concept that he related to you? 21 A. Yes, um-hum. 22 Q. In other words, that's the way he felt? 23 A. That's the way he felt. 24 Q. Let me put up the next blowup from your notes. 25 This is the one that starts up at the top, "I became PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1473 1 analytical." Do you have your smaller copy there? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Your entry, "I became analytical and critical," 4 was that -- that was Mr. Forsyth describing how he 5 treated his wife? 6 A. Yes. This was -- this would have been kind of 7 a cycle or a pattern that would happen over these five 8 years, that as these issues would come up or there 9 would become some tension in the relationship, he 10 would experience it as a confrontation, and his first 11 response to that would be to be hurt, he'd be hurt by 12 that, and then that would turn into some kind of 13 resentment or some sort of anger, and then he would 14 withdraw himself and become, as I said -- as he said, 15 what's the phrase here again? 16 Q. It was at the top here. 17 A. "I was analytical and critical," but he would 18 not express it. Most of the time, he wouldn't express 19 it. He would hold that in. 20 Q. Now, there's the entry, "Every conversation and 21 dealing became intimidating." That was what you were 22 just now referring to? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And this was Mr. Forsyth describing to you the 25 interactions he would have with his wife he viewed as PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1474 1 sources of conflict? 2 A. Yes. You know, I think on his part, that's a 3 bit of hyperbole, an overstatement. I'm sure that 4 every conversation wouldn't be that way. But when 5 they were dealing with these kinds of issues, that's 6 how it would feel to him. 7 Q. And the intimidating part, did that include the 8 concept, at least as Mr. Forsyth felt it, his wife's 9 strong verbal style? 10 A. He would be intimidated by that, yes. 11 Q. And, in fact, didn't he also tell you that he's 12 not just intimidated by his wife's communication 13 style, but it was overwhelming to him? 14 A. Yes, that was the word he used. 15 Q. Now, the entry, "Never feel support," again, 16 was that Mr. Forsyth's communication about how he felt 17 about his wife? 18 A. That's right. Compared to the early years of 19 his marriage when he felt support in any kind of 20 decision that was being made, he didn't feel that same 21 kind of support any longer. 22 Q. Now, the next entry -- and let me just ask: Is 23 this what Mr. Forsyth told you, that he felt she was 24 crude, cruel, and tactless? 25 A. Yes. Those were his words. PACIFIC REPORTING SERVICES UNLIMITED, INC. (808) 524-PRSU 1475 1 Q. And the next entry, "The same mind set applies 2 now," was that signifying that all of these issues