1 1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 2 FOR THE DISTRICT OF WYOMING 3 ------------------------------------------------------- 4 THE ESTATES OF DEBORAH MARIE TOBIN 5 and ALYSSA ANN TOBIN, Deceased, by TIMOTHY JOHN TOBIN, Personal 6 Representative; and THE ESTATES OF DONALD JACK SCHELL and RITA CHARLOTTE 7 SCHELL, Deceased, by NEVA KAY HARDY, Personal Representative, 8 Plaintiffs, 9 vs. Civil No. 00-CV-025D 10 SMITHKLINE BEECHAM PHARMACEUTICALS, 11 Defendant. 12 ------------------------------------------------------- 13 DEPOSITION OF FATHER THOMAS OGG 14 Taken in behalf of Defendant 9:00 a.m., Wednesday 15 February 14, 2001 16 17 PURSUANT TO NOTICE, the deposition of FATHER 18 THOMAS OGG was taken in accordance with the applicable 19 Federal Rules of Civil Procedure at St. Barbara's 20 Catholic Church, 115 E. 3rd, Powell, Wyoming, before 21 Vonni R. Bray, Registered Professional Reporter and 22 Notary Public of the State of Wyoming. 23 24 25 2 1 A P P E A R A N C E S 2 For the Plaintiffs: MR. JAMES E. FITZGERALD (By telephone) 3 Attorney at Law FITZGERALD LAW FIRM 4 2108 Warren Avenue Cheyenne, WY 82001 5 (307) 634-4000 6 For the Defendant: MS. MISHA E. WESTBY Attorney at Law 7 HIRST & APPLEGATE 1720 Carey Avenue, Ste. 200 8 P.O. Box 1083 Cheyenne, WY 82003-1083 9 (307) 632-0541 10 11 I N D E X 12 DEPOSITION OF FATHER THOMAS OGG: Page 13 Direct Examination By Ms. Westby 3 14 Cross-Examination By Mr. Fitzgerald 45 15 Redirect Examination By Ms. Westby 48 16 Recross-Examination By Mr. Fitzgerald 51 17 Further Redirect Examination By Ms. Westby 53 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 (Deposition proceedings commenced 3 at 9:00 a.m., February 14, 2001.) 4 (Witness sworn.) 5 FATHER THOMAS OGG, 6 called for examination by the Defendant, being first 7 duly sworn, on his oath testified as follows: 8 DIRECT EXAMINATION 9 Q. (BY MS. WESTBY) Good morning again. We've 10 been sitting here talking for a while. And I think when 11 I spoke to you about your deposition, I told you that I 12 represent the defendants, Smithkline Beecham, in this 13 case, who is the manufacturer of the antidepressant that 14 Don Schell was taking at the time of his death. 15 Jim Fitzgerald, the attorney for the 16 plaintiffs, is present on the phone. 17 Father Ogg, have you ever had your deposition 18 taken before? 19 A. Not like this. 20 Q. You mean not like with a court reporter and 21 being transcribed? 22 A. Correct. 23 Q. Okay. The things to remember in this type of 24 setting are that she is going to be taking down 25 everything we say. So you need to let me finish my 4 1 questions before you answer, and I'll do the same for 2 you. Every answer that you give needs to be audible. 3 So don't nod your head, because she can't take down 4 those kinds of gestures. And please let me know if you 5 don't understand my question. Please ask me to repeat 6 it, and I will do the best I can to make it more clear. 7 For the record, please give your full name and 8 address. 9 A. I'm Father Thomas G., for George, Ogg. And I 10 live at xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx. Is that a 11 sufficient address? 12 Q. That's just fine. And where is the best phone 13 number to reach you? 14 A. The one we're on. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx. 15 Q. And I'm assuming that the church next door is 16 your church; is that correct? 17 A. St. Barbara's Catholic Church. 18 Q. And how long have you been at St. Barbara's 19 church? 20 A. Since a year ago October, so about a year and 21 a half. 22 Q. And where did you come from? 23 A. I was stationed in Gillette, Wyoming at 24 St. Matthew's Catholic Church for 13 years. 25 Q. Did you come directly from Gillette to xxxxxxxxx, 5 1 or do you get time in between? How does that work? 2 A. Quite directly. 3 Q. How does that work within the church? Are you 4 assigned different locations? Why did you move from 5 Gillette to xxxxxxx? 6 A. The bishop is our spiritual leader. And he 7 has the total and final say. So it's a polite way of 8 asking, meaning you will go. And with some reluctance, 9 I did. 10 Q. You were reluctant to leave your church in 11 Gillette? 12 A. I loved it there. The people are wonderful. 13 But they are here, too. It's not anti-anyplace else. 14 Q. I'm sure you just form bonds and have 15 friendships, and I guess that is hard to leave. 16 Give me a little bit of background, 17 educational background. What schooling did you attend? 18 What kind of degrees do you hold, those kind of things? 19 A. My first -- I grew up in Worland, graduated 20 from the high school there. My next degree was in 21 agriculture from the University of Wyoming. 22 Q. And is that a BS? 23 A. Yes, in agriculture. Then I went to 24 St. Thomas Theological Seminary in Denver. And there I 25 received a bachelor of arts in philosophy, a master's 6 1 degree in religious education. And then three years 2 after I was ordained a priest, which was in 1968, the 3 bishop sent me back to school. And I now have a Ph.D. 4 in guidance and counseling, marriage counseling. 5 Q. Where did you earn that degree? 6 A. From the University of Wyoming, 1975. 7 Q. What did you do after you received your 8 doctorate? 9 A. I've always pastored in Wyoming, which is 10 where I asked to be and will always be, in the Diocese 11 of Cheyenne, which is the equivalent to the state of 12 Wyoming. And I served in -- do you want to know all the 13 churches? 14 Q. Yes, please. 15 A. You do, okay. Sts. Cyril and Methodius, whose 16 feast day is today, and that's in Rock Springs. Then in 17 Laramie at St. Paul's Newman Center. Then at 18 St. Laurence O'Toole in Laramie, the downtown parish. 19 Then St. Anthony's in Casper, back to Laramie at Newman 20 Center in residence while I was vocation director for 21 the diocese, which meant I traveled the state and 22 encouraged men and women to consider religious 23 vocations. Recruiter if that word fits better. 24 And then assigned in addition to that to 25 Glenrock, to St. Louis Parish. That was seven years. 7 1 And then 13 years in Gillette at St. Matthew's. As I 2 mentioned, a year and a half here at St. Barbara's. 3 Q. Okay. How does the Ph.D. in guidance and 4 marriage counseling, how does that fit into your 5 vocation as a priest? And I'm assuming that it has some 6 connection since the church sent you back for that 7 degree; is that correct? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. How does that fit in with your general 10 vocation? 11 A. I've used that specifically on the church's 12 marriage tribunal, which looks at broken and divorced 13 marriages to see if there's a possibility for a church 14 annulment. I used it in vocation ministry, obviously to 15 help people discern their call from God. I've used it 16 on the road, meaning everywhere I've been plus in the 17 parish ministry with counseling families and individuals 18 in marriage difficulties. So it's been used about as 19 much as my -- actually more. But I like to think that I 20 started with a BS in agriculture, and I've never lost 21 that one. 22 Q. Do you only counsel to your parishioners? 23 A. No. I have never asked -- that's not been a 24 concern. My desire is to help people. 25 Q. So even if they are not Catholic, even if they 8 1 are just somebody in the community and they request your 2 help, you will do that as well? 3 A. I will, and I do, yes. 4 Q. How often does that happen? 5 A. Every day, meaning I use it all the time. 6 Q. Right. When did you first meet Don or Rita or 7 both of them? And I'm assuming it would have been in 8 Gillette; is that correct? 9 A. Yes, that's correct. 10 Q. And do you recall generally when you first met 11 them? 12 A. I do not remember the time sequence that 13 well. So I could not even give you a year. Because I 14 don't remember, so I'm not going to say. It's like I 15 don't remember not knowing them being in Gillette. 16 Q. Okay. Do you believe -- were they 17 attending -- was that St. Matthew's? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Were they attending St. Matthew's as far as 20 you know when you took over that church? 21 A. See, again, I can't say when I first formally 22 met them to where I can say, yes, I know who that person 23 is or those people are. But I did get to know them 24 quite well only because Don and sometimes Rita would 25 come to daily Mass as well as to Sunday services. So it 9 1 was a much more personal or direct relationship. So I 2 did know them. Now, as for what year, I couldn't say 3 that. 4 Q. Okay. When you say daily Mass, what time did 5 daily Mass take place? 6 A. Just before God wakes up. It's actually -- 7 the Mass was the -- when I first got there, it moved 8 rapidly from 7:00 a.m. to 6:45 in the morning. And then 9 at 5:15 in the afternoon. 10 Q. What time did they attend daily Mass when they 11 did that? 12 A. They would often come. Don I say more than 13 Rita. But they would usually often both be there at 14 either time. It varied. 15 Q. If you can, give me a general idea 16 approximately how many times a week would they -- would 17 Don attend daily Mass? 18 A. For a couple of years before that awful 19 tragedy, it was -- you know, it was constant or regular, 20 I would say. Maybe twice a week. I'm just guessing. 21 But it was with some regularity. And like often people 22 do, they sit in the exact same pew, the same spot each 23 time. So it's -- you notice if they are there. 24 Q. What pew did they sit in? Did they sit up 25 front or in the back? 10 1 A. Okay. The church is octagonal. So now we 2 have to be specific, right? 3 Q. That's right. 4 A. They sat in the second section from my right, 5 all right. If I'm looking at the congregation, the 6 second section from the right about two-thirds back. 7 And they sat directly in between myself and the 8 vestibule. All the lamp stands were in the back there, 9 the votive lights. So I mean, it was -- that's one of 10 my quirks. I like to see some order. So I line them 11 up. 12 Q. So if Don was attending approximately two 13 times a week, how often would Rita be with him? 14 A. I'd say more often than not. So translate 15 that. I don't know, 50, 60 percent of the time. 16 Q. That's great. Did you notice any mannerisms, 17 certain ways they sat when they were in church 18 generally? 19 A. Nothing unusual for a Catholic. I mean, they 20 followed the sequence, the flow of the Mass. We stand, 21 we sit, we kneel. 22 Q. Did they sit close to each other? Far apart? 23 Did he have his arm around her generally, anything like 24 that? 25 A. They sat as most husbands and wives do in our 11 1 Catholic tradition, which is approximate close. But 2 it's not a time for emotional display. Our Catholics 3 are not good at that. 4 Q. Did he have his arm around her usually when 5 they were in church; do you remember? 6 A. There were times he did. I remember he would 7 sit back in the pew. How do you talk like this? Put 8 that on paper. Puts his hands on both sides of himself 9 and Rita is obviously under one of those. But it was 10 not like he was holding her as much as being in that 11 position. 12 Q. Okay. And you said that was more of a 13 personal kind of thing. I'm assuming the daily Mass, 14 because there were fewer people so you had more of a 15 chance to talk to people maybe? Was it the same as the 16 Sunday Mass when you would stand and greet people at the 17 end of service, or did you do that generally? 18 A. Yes, I always did that. But there's a number 19 of doors. So often I would be at the main entrance. 20 And they would go out the side door to my right, which 21 would be to the south in that church. 22 Q. Okay. When you did talk to them, how did they 23 appear to you? What -- did anything strike you as 24 unusual when you would talk to them during their 25 attendance of these daily masses? Anything ever concern 12 1 you? 2 A. Concern me. I was aware that Don was not a 3 happy camper. 4 Q. And how were you aware of that? 5 A. My desire to know and love people. And I 6 guess my training -- there was times when he would be 7 sad or depressed. 8 Q. Can you give me an idea of how often you 9 noticed that or were concerned about that? 10 MR. FITZGERALD: The question is 11 compound. 12 Q. (BY MS. WESTBY) And he's going to be making 13 objections throughout the deposition. It's just to 14 preserve that for the Court later on because the judge 15 can't make rulings right now. But you can go ahead and 16 answer after those objections. 17 A. So let's start over with your question. 18 Q. Okay. Can you give me a general idea of how 19 often it happened that you were concerned about him 20 being sad or depressed? 21 A. I would say off and on. I mean, was not 22 consistent, one or another. 23 Q. How could you tell that he was sad or 24 depressed? 25 MR. FITZGERALD: Lacks foundation. 13 1 THE WITNESS: I didn't hear that. 2 MR. FITZGERALD: I just said it lacks 3 foundation. 4 Q. (BY MS. WESTBY) And you can go ahead and 5 answer. 6 A. I can answer? 7 Q. Yes, that's just another objection. He just 8 needs to put those in so the Court at some point down 9 the road can look at those objections and possibly rule 10 on them. 11 A. Oh, I see. In visiting with Don after 12 services on occasion, we would talk in generic or 13 general ways about how he's doing. There's times when I 14 believe that I can, like most concerned people, notice 15 when somebody's mood has changed. So it's not magic. 16 It's a natural human reaction. So how can I? I think 17 that's how I'm answering it. 18 Q. Would he express to you that he was sad or 19 depressed? 20 A. In general ways, yes. 21 Q. How do you mean general ways? 22 A. Well, I do know. And that's where I jump off 23 the deep end. I know he was visiting with a person on 24 our staff, Sister Agnes Clare, who was a professional 25 counselor. And so he was visiting with her with some 14 1 regularity. So I didn't butt in. I deliberately know 2 my limits in that area. 3 So we talked as parishioner/pastor rather than 4 counseling mentality mode. So I never got into that 5 dimension deliberately, because I knew he was receiving 6 some counsel or guidance. 7 Q. Okay. So you didn't want to interfere with 8 what Sister Agnes Clare was doing for Don or how she was 9 trying to help him; is that what you're telling me? 10 A. That is correct. 11 Q. Okay. You said that he would express to you 12 just generally, as you were greeting him or talking to 13 him after the service, that he would generally say that 14 he was sad or depressed. Can you give me a sense of the 15 kind of words that he would use to tell you that? 16 MR. FITZGERALD: The question assumes 17 facts not in evidence. And I also want to interpose the 18 possibility to where there's a penitent privilege here. 19 I don't know at what point we cross that line. But I 20 want to have that on the record. 21 THE WITNESS: I thank you for that, 22 because that's exactly why I'm hesitating. 23 MS. WESTBY: Okay. It's my 24 understanding from what I know about the priest penitent 25 privilege, that it applies to confessions made to you, 15 1 to things told to you in confidence seeking forgiveness 2 and help in that setting. Is that your understanding of 3 the priest penitent privilege as well, Jim? 4 MR. FITZGERALD: Well, yeah. And I 5 don't think there's anything there. I just would be -- 6 I am imagining that Father Ogg, as he confirmed here, 7 has some concerns about the extent to which he should be 8 talking. He's obviously here setting out his 9 observations. And this is, you know, a public forum 10 essentially he's describing at this point. So I don't 11 know what other questions you might have. We'll just 12 take them one at a time and see what Father Ogg's 13 comfort level is. As far as we're concerned, he's got 14 nothing to hide. I'm just speaking up because I'm 15 sensitive to Father Ogg's position. 16 Q. (BY MS. WESTBY) And you -- I think that's 17 right. You let me know when you feel uncomfortable with 18 areas that we're getting into, and we'll do the best we 19 can to avoid those things. 20 A. Could I answer your question? 21 Q. Sure. That would be great. 22 A. See, I'm trying to decide, do I get to talk or 23 do I have to answer your questions? 24 MR. FITZGERALD: The answer to that is 25 you have to answer the questions. And both lawyers will 16 1 do their best to give you questions that allow you to 2 say what you know and observed. 3 THE WITNESS: Okay. 4 MR. FITZGERALD: I'm not sure what the 5 pending question is. 6 A. Well, back to that original thing. I have a 7 totally strict desire, effort and experience of 8 confidentiality with reconciliation or the sacrament of 9 penance in that forum. I also have a very serious 10 obligation as a professional counselor to not divulge 11 what happens in counseling. And that's what I -- those 12 are two different reasons that is. 13 Q. (BY MS. WESTBY) Yes, I agree. 14 A. But I take the second one very seriously, 15 also. So that if someone comes, they have every 16 confidence, I hope, in me that they will not be spoken 17 about in any other forum with any other person, spouse 18 or otherwise. 19 So in the marriage counseling, for example, I 20 will not mention anything I hear from one spouse to the 21 other spouse without explicit permission. Now, ideally, 22 obviously, you try to help people. So you use the 23 knowledge you gain from one to help the relationship. 24 But I would not in any way try to break that 25 confidence. And I'm very sensitive to that. 17 1 Q. Okay. 2 A. So that's why I'm already starting to, you 3 know, be a little more careful here. Because what 4 happens after Mass is obviously a public forum or in the 5 church public. But what I did mention that -- knowing 6 what I do about Sister Agnes Clare's expertise in that 7 role, I also have the understanding and the practice of 8 not counseling someone who is counseling someone else. 9 That's not fair to the person or counselor. 10 Q. And am I correct, then, in assuming or 11 understanding from you that you did not provide 12 counseling to the Schells? 13 A. That is correct. Sister Agnes Clare did. 14 Unfortunately, as you probably already know, she passed 15 away last November. 16 Q. Right. Do you know if she kept records of her 17 counseling sessions? 18 A. Yes, I know that. And she did. 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. I also know they were destroyed when she left 21 Gillette, because I helped in that process. 22 Q. Okay. 23 A. We shredded everything that she was not going 24 to take with her. And those counsel, counselees, 25 clients, whatever term you use for them that she 18 1 referred back to me, I inherited those records. 2 Q. But that was not Don and Rita Schell? 3 A. None, none whatever. 4 Q. When did she leave Gillette? 5 A. I'm guessing five years ago now. 6 Q. So as far as you knew, then, after she left, 7 Don and Rita never received counseling from anyone at 8 the church after that point; is that correct? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. Okay. I want to go back to the question that 11 caused this discussion about confidentiality and the 12 privilege and ask you if you feel comfortable answering 13 it since -- and let me make my question very specific. 14 MR. FITZGERALD: Pardon me, can we go 15 off the record for a minute? 16 MS. WESTBY: Okay. 17 (Discussion held off the record.) 18 MR. FITZGERALD: Let me make this 19 statement for the record. The families, through these 20 estates which we represent, Father Ogg, the estates are 21 the legal instrument by which these claims are brought, 22 have no issue, no concern with -- wish to place no 23 impediment on Father Ogg revealing whatever it is he was 24 told by Don Schell at any time. In other words, we're 25 waiving any privilege that might exist. 19 1 And, Father Ogg, this might give you a greater 2 comfort level. As far as we're concerned you can answer 3 these questions if in your, you know, profession and 4 your duties with your church you feel some impediment, 5 you can let us, me, know that today. But as far as the 6 law goes, the door is open. You can reveal whatever 7 you're asked about. 8 THE WITNESS: All right. 9 Q. (BY MS. WESTBY) Is that okay, then, with 10 you? Do you feel comfortable with that? 11 A. Yes. 12 MR. FITZGERALD: I may still interpose 13 some objections because I -- you know, the question 14 might be too general or need to be more focused, 15 whatever. These depositions aren't just free-for-alls. 16 They have to follow a logical process with questions and 17 answers, because sometimes they wind up being used in 18 court proceedings. So I'm not trying to keep you from 19 revealing the things that are pertinent to this 20 lawsuit. And I may still pose some objections to try to 21 clarify some questions and so forth. 22 THE WITNESS: And my understanding is 23 simply I'm going to tell what I know as truthfully as I 24 can remember it and get out of the way. 25 MR. FITZGERALD: Right. 20 1 Q. (BY MS. WESTBY) Okay. Let's go back to -- we 2 were discussing where you got the impression that Don 3 Schell -- I think you used the word that he wasn't a 4 happy camper sometimes. Tell me, then, what he told you 5 that led you to believe that. One of the things that 6 you said is he was counseling with Sister Agnes Clare, 7 and you were aware of that. But what did he tell you 8 that made you think that was the case? 9 MR. FITZGERALD: Let me say one other 10 thing. Usually there can be issues that arise later on, 11 you know, Deadman Statute, hearsay, and all those 12 things. I'm objecting pursuant to the rules only to the 13 form of the questions. 14 MS. WESTBY: Okay. 15 Q. (BY MS. WESTBY) And then you can answer. 16 He's just preserving any objections that he may have 17 down the road so that they are on the record, because 18 otherwise he waives them. 19 A. I'm going to say I'm not going to sit here and 20 say I remember a verbatim conversation. 21 Q. Okay. 22 A. So I don't have a -- you know, and I must 23 confess, I haven't spent a whole lot of time worrying 24 about this either. 25 Q. But generally, do you recall what kinds of 21 1 things he told you that made you believe that he was sad 2 or depressed? 3 A. I knew he had some depression from him. I 4 knew that he was on some medication. I never heard what 5 it was, what it might have been. And just in visiting 6 after church as people are leaving, you get a sense or a 7 flavor of what's happening in a relationship or in a 8 situation. 9 I did talk to Rita independently on an 10 occasion or two that I can recall that only indicated 11 her concern for him. That's about the sum of my memory 12 with that family up to that point. 13 Q. And by up to that point, do you mean up to the 14 point of their death? 15 A. Well, I was involved in that. And I probably 16 would be happy to tell you what little I know there. 17 And then I'm saying, well, go fishing, because I can't 18 help you. 19 Q. Okay. Let me ask you a couple more specific 20 questions. When you say that you knew that he had some 21 depression from things that he had told you, did he ever 22 use that word depression that you can remember? 23 A. I don't remember. I'm not going to say I 24 could say for sure yes or for sure no. 25 Q. Okay. 22 1 A. I mean, sometimes you don't need to use the 2 word. If someone is sad-faced, you presume, and I 3 presume they know there's a sadness or joy, the opposite 4 of that. So I'm saying that it was not an unpublic 5 fact, if people are observant. 6 Q. Right. And I know what you mean. And then 7 that you knew he was on some medication; did he tell you 8 that he was on medication for it, or did Rita tell you? 9 A. I'm sure both did, because we did talk more 10 than a few times over those. 11 Q. And you were -- were you aware of what 12 purposes the medication was serving, you know, what he 13 was taking the medication for? 14 A. No. That I left to someone else. 15 Q. And I think you already told me this, but do 16 you remember the names of any medications that they may 17 have mentioned? 18 A. I don't recall them ever mentioning a name, 19 much less what it might be. So I won't venture into 20 that. 21 Q. Okay. Is it true -- I've read in different 22 accounts that Rita was the church secretary for a while; 23 is that true, at St. Matthew's? 24 A. I've heard that same story. It was not during 25 my time in those 13 years. 23 1 Q. Okay. 2 A. I do believe she was the church secretary 3 prior -- some years prior to my arriving in Gillette. 4 Q. Did she perform any other function in the 5 church while you were there that would have brought her 6 into contact independently of Don? 7 A. Nothing specifically. I mean, just a 8 regular -- a parish member that was obviously a -- if 9 they are at daily Mass, they are active parishioners. I 10 call them and they're receiving the sacraments. 11 Q. But she didn't serve on any boards or -- 12 A. No, not to my memory. 13 Q. Okay. You said that you talked to her a 14 couple of times without Don being present. Do you 15 recall under what circumstances those discussions would 16 have taken place? 17 A. Concern for Don. 18 Q. So she came to see you specifically out of 19 concern for Don? 20 A. Well, and herself obviously. She's an active 21 member of the family. 22 Q. And what concerns did she relate to you during 23 those meetings? 24 A. I don't remember. That's my way of saying I 25 don't remember. 24 1 Q. You just generally got the impression that she 2 was concerned -- or concerned for Don and herself as a 3 member of the family; is that correct? 4 A. Repeat that in a different way, please. 5 Q. You testified earlier that Rita came to you 6 with concerns about Don on a couple of occasions. I am 7 trying to just figure out how she expressed those 8 concerns or what her concerns were. 9 A. And I'm saying I'm not answering that. 10 Q. Oh, okay. You're not answering that based 11 on -- 12 A. I'm not going to tell you. How do I need to 13 say that? None of your business. 14 Q. Okay. 15 A. Is that a painful way to say it? 16 Q. The plaintiff has agreed to waive any legal -- 17 A. That's not -- 18 Q. -- right that -- 19 A. I'm talking for me. I'm not worried about the 20 plaintiff or what the other side of the story is 21 asking. I'm just saying I choose not to answer that 22 question. 23 Q. Okay. Is that based on the priest penitent 24 privilege or on the -- you know, counseling 25 confidentiality? 25 1 A. It's who I am. It's based on my understanding 2 of confidentiality. 3 Q. Okay. 4 A. Because it's not up to me to determine why 5 they didn't share that with somebody else. 6 Q. Okay. 7 A. I presume they did share it, which in this 8 particular case I knew. Sister Agnes Clare was working 9 with them, all right. 10 Q. Okay. 11 A. And so that's my way of saying I'm out of the 12 loop. So I realize your desire to get me to say more. 13 I realize my desire to not say it. 14 Q. Right. 15 A. And partly -- 16 Q. Go ahead. 17 A. I can see where you might be exasperated, and 18 I'm sorry about that. My point is I am not going to say 19 anything that I am not positive of. So I can say that 20 I'm not -- I'm not -- if I'm not positive of your 21 specific question, which is a naturally inept leading 22 question, I'm not -- I choose not to answer that. 23 Q. Okay. 24 A. Because of I don't want to jeopardize 25 anybody's situation with a poor memory. 26 1 Q. Okay. I am going to -- I am going to ask you 2 very specific questions, then, in an effort to get 3 exactly to the point where you have concerns about 4 telling me information so that if I have to go to the 5 Court and see what the Court's take on this is and how 6 they view this, then I know exactly where you don't feel 7 comfortable giving me any more information. And I agree 8 with you, that under these circumstances, it's important 9 that I ask you very specific questions. And then 10 whenever you feel like it's a confidentiality or a 11 privilege problem, you just tell me that. Just say that 12 you feel like that's confidential or privileged and you 13 don't want to give me any more information. Is that 14 okay if I ask you some more specific questions? 15 A. If it's okay with you that I say I don't know, 16 and that's what that means. It means I don't know. 17 Q. Well, let's for -- 18 A. Or some other reason. That's where I'm not. 19 Q. For accuracy, if you can't recall, then go 20 ahead and say -- or if you don't know, say you don't 21 know. But if you are asserting that you don't want to 22 give me the information because it's confidential or 23 privileged, then just please tell me that. And then the 24 record will be accurate, and then we can go from there. 25 Is that acceptable? 27 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Okay. Did Rita come to you for counseling? 3 A. I don't know why people come to me. She came 4 with a concern. Is that -- see, now -- you know, this 5 is where it gets confusing. And I'm just saying she did 6 come. We did visit. The decision was that she and/or 7 Don would go to Sister Agnes Clare. 8 Q. Oh, okay -- 9 A. And so I'm out of the loop. 10 Q. Okay. I should have been more -- 11 A. That's what I meant. 12 Q. I should have been more specific. So this 13 occurred before she went to see -- before she and/or Don 14 went to see Sister Agnes Clare; is that correct? 15 A. This? 16 Q. The instance or couple of instances when Rita 17 came to see you with concerns. 18 A. Before and during, both. I still talk to my 19 parishioners. We still visited. We still keep tabs on 20 each other, on what's happening. But it was not a 21 counseling relationship, and it wasn't in any depth 22 either. 23 Q. Okay. 24 A. So I don't have any pertinent information to 25 share about that, other than how are you today, and how 28 1 is the weather, quite like we talked about when you got 2 up here. 3 Q. Were you surprised -- what was your reaction 4 when you learned about what had happened to Don and Rita 5 Schell? 6 A. Extreme shock. 7 Q. And I'm just going to -- I'm going to ask you 8 these questions. 9 A. These questions I'm ready for. 10 Q. Okay. I'm absolutely -- 11 A. Get on with it. 12 Q. I'm absolutely fine if you assert a privilege 13 or confidentiality. But I want to know that's what your 14 problem is, not whether you -- 15 A. You were talking about sequence. I thought 16 you were leading us on a path, leading me on a path 17 here. And I'm saying I gave you that first part of the 18 path. That's all I got to say about that. 19 Q. So basically when Rita came to see you about 20 concerns with Don, you referred them, first of all, to 21 Sister Agnes Clare. And whenever she came to see you 22 while she and/or Don were seeing Sister Agnes Clare, you 23 basically just referred her back to Sister Agnes Clare; 24 is that correct? 25 A. No. We shared as pastor and parishioner, not 29 1 as counselor. 2 Q. Okay. Did she relate problems to you about 3 her marriage, or was it specifically concerns with Don's 4 emotional state or psychological state? 5 MR. FITZGERALD: Question assumes facts 6 not in evidence and is compound. 7 A. Any time a spouse is hurting, it directly 8 involves the other spouse. I don't know if it's 9 important at this point to try to make that 10 distinction. If one is hurting, the other is hurting. 11 So does it affect the marriage? Yes, it does. Is it a 12 personal issue? Not necessarily. So I found nothing 13 that there was a tension between Rita and Don. That's 14 not where I'm coming from. Do you hear what I'm 15 saying? 16 Q. (BY MS. WESTBY) Yes, I do. 17 A. She's coming out of concern for somebody she 18 knows and loves. 19 Q. Okay. Do you have -- can you give me an 20 estimate of the number of times during your -- during 21 the time period that you knew Don and Rita Schell that 22 you were concerned about his emotional state, that you 23 felt like he was sad or depressed? 24 A. I was never concerned in terms of something 25 serious. I was under the distinct impression that with 30 1 his medication and with his getting assistance, help 2 emotionally or pastorally, however words you want to use 3 that, that things were going forward. The 4 relationship -- I don't mean relationship. I'm talking 5 about his well-being was stable and adequate for the 6 day. 7 Q. And I appreciate that information. That's 8 good to have. But do you recall how many times during 9 the time period that you knew him when he seemed sad? 10 Or depressed to you maybe is the better way to say that 11 since those are the terms you used? 12 A. I don't have a number for you. I have the 13 impression of there being some cyclic ups and downs, 14 which is very human. It's not unnatural. 15 Q. Do you have any feeling about how long of a 16 time period these cycles were? Like was it every six 17 months? Was it once a year? Do you have any feeling 18 like that? 19 A. You use a feeling. I have a sense that it was 20 several times -- you know, the cyclics weren't up and 21 down weekly or maybe even monthly. But I wouldn't -- I 22 didn't chart it. So I don't -- I have an impression 23 that maybe he had those big waves several times a year 24 maybe. I don't know that. 25 Q. Okay. 31 1 A. That's an impression now, not a fact. 2 Q. Right. And in that same line, do you know how 3 long each episode lasted? Or do you have -- 4 A. I don't. I just said I don't know any more 5 than what I should. 6 Q. Did you ever -- and I'm assuming the answer to 7 this is no -- but did you ever -- and you're a Ph.D., so 8 you can't write prescriptions, can you? 9 A. No, I cannot. 10 Q. And you did not feel that you treated Don or 11 Rita Schell as a psychiatrist or a counselor? 12 A. I did not. 13 Q. Okay. Did you keep any records or notes of 14 your conversations with the Schells? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Did the Schells ever indicate to you that Don 17 had any kind of reaction to the medication that he was 18 taking, either good or bad? 19 MR. FITZGERALD: At what time frame? 20 The question is vague. 21 Q. (BY MS. WESTBY) At any time that you knew or 22 talked to them? 23 A. We did not go into those details. I did not 24 go into those details with them. 25 Q. Okay. And they never mentioned anything to 32 1 you about reactions to medication? 2 A. Not to me. 3 Q. We know, based on the history, that Don 4 experienced losses in his family during this time. I 5 guess Rita's father passed away. And during this time, 6 I'm talking of the period you would have known them, his 7 brother passed away. How did those losses affect him? 8 MR. FITZGERALD: Lack of foundation. 9 A. I think quite like most people. That may have 10 been the cause for the ups and downs of his emotional 11 state. I don't know. 12 Q. (BY MS. WESTBY) Okay. 13 A. I do know that it was -- I remember enough of 14 that to say, yeah, that affects people. 15 Q. Do you know anybody besides Sister Agnes Clare 16 who was treating Don for his problems? 17 A. I don't know any other person that was 18 involved in that healthcare. 19 Q. Okay. Did Don ever mention to you concerns 20 that he may have had with work? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And do you recall what those concerns were? 23 A. No. I mean, I couldn't even -- I'd have to be 24 guessing. 25 Q. Okay. Do you recall when he expressed 33 1 concerns about work to you? 2 A. This, as I do recall, was several years before 3 the tragedy. 4 Q. How about anything in close proximity to their 5 deaths? Do you recall anything, any concern about 6 work? 7 A. I do not. 8 Q. Were you aware of a nervous breakdown or 9 something of that nature that Don may have suffered in 10 1993 or 1994? 11 MR. FITZGERALD: The question is vague. 12 A. It was alluded to. 13 Q. (BY MS. WESTBY) Was it alluded to by Don or 14 Rita Schell or both? 15 A. I don't -- I mean, I'm aware of that 16 information. That's all. 17 Q. Do you counsel people in your church to 18 keep -- or to prepare and keep the kind of notebooks 19 that Don and Rita Schell had about funeral arrangements, 20 arrangements to be taken care of at the time of their 21 death? 22 A. Yes, I do. And I preach on it, so it's a very 23 public thing. That I find it very helpful if people 24 prepare so that their family doesn't have to make 25 frustrating or divisive decisions. The human condition 34 1 is such that that's a gift. 2 Q. Did you do that -- did you preach to your 3 congregation on that yearly? Was it a seminar? Tell me 4 how that took place. 5 A. Again, I have no memory. But I would say 6 roughly annually. I know periodically that's a topic 7 that I address. 8 Q. Had you been to Don and Rita Schells' home 9 before their death? 10 A. At any time? Yes. 11 Q. When were you at their home, or for what 12 reason? 13 A. Probably to have supper. Just -- 'cause 14 that's how I minister. You know, when do you eat? 15 Q. That's a good way to do it. 16 A. And, you know, can I join you? So I go 17 bumming considerably, so that's not unusual. 18 Q. Do you remember how many times roughly you 19 would have been to their house or eaten with them? 20 A. Very few. Because another style of ministry 21 that I have is I try to get around to different folks. 22 I don't have any few that I go to often and others 23 none. I try to reach out. 24 Q. When you were at their house, did you notice 25 anything unusual? Did anything concern you when you 35 1 were at their home? 2 A. No. 3 Q. It's my understanding from the police records 4 that when you were contacted following their deaths, 5 that you told the police where their funeral arrangement 6 notebooks were. How did you know that? 7 A. I did know that, but I don't know how I know 8 it. I'm serious. I mean, I'm not -- see, I didn't try 9 to hang on to these data. It was so painful. It was an 10 awful experience. See, and that's why you have a 11 jillion questions, and I have a few simple memories that 12 were strong and clear and painful. 13 Q. Okay. 14 A. And so I guess that's my answer to that one. 15 Q. Had you helped them prepare those notebooks or 16 been involved in any way in preparing those notebooks? 17 A. I do not recall specifically helping them 18 prepare. 19 Q. When were you first contacted after they were 20 discovered; do you remember? 21 A. Soon, but I don't remember the time or the day 22 or any of that. 23 Q. Who were you contacted by? 24 A. I don't know. Often it's the coroner or the 25 funeral home. Those variously overlapped. But it would 36 1 be the.... 2 Q. What actions did you take when you were 3 informed of what happened? 4 A. I go immediately to the phone or to the family 5 or wherever I'm called to go to. 6 Q. And where was that in this case? 7 A. To the home. 8 Q. To Don and Rita's home? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And what did you do at the house? 11 A. Prayed. 12 Q. Was there anybody else? Was Tim Tobin at the 13 neighbor's home at that time, or do you know where he 14 was at that time? 15 A. I don't recall. 16 Q. Did you -- 17 A. I don't recall who was there and who was not 18 there except that I go there to try to be there for 19 others. And this is again where my lack of ability with 20 names is a factor. But that's -- I don't recall. I can 21 remember being there. I can remember the awful -- you 22 know, the sadness of the neighbors and the people that 23 congregated quickly and their coming and going fast, the 24 number of people. 25 As I remember -- and see, once again, I 37 1 remember mean that's often what happens. So it's not -- 2 so I'm not specifying this as being absolutely the only 3 thing I can remember. 4 Q. Okay. Do you recall how long you were at 5 their home? 6 A. It seems like it was an hour or so. I 7 mean.... 8 Q. What did you do after you left the home? Did 9 you go anywhere else? 10 A. Back to church to pray. 11 Q. Were you ever called to go to Rita's mother's 12 home or her sister? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And when did you go there? 15 A. I don't recall. I just know that it was such 16 an awful thing that I would go -- if there was any 17 indication of someone who wanted to have a listening 18 ear. 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. That's why when you asked how did I know, I 21 listen. And I don't at this time remember who would 22 have said. People talk, and so -- but somewhere I 23 overheard that. How else would I -- I mean, I can't 24 imagine how I would have known it except that -- if I'm 25 not mistaken, didn't the police say where is our 38 1 things? And I said, no, I heard they were here. So I 2 went back with them if I'm not mistaken on that one. 3 Q. And the police report says that they called 4 you and you said that the notebooks were approximately 5 five by seven inches and would be on the end table 6 located in the living room. That's what the police 7 report says. Were you aware that there were guns in the 8 house? Did you know that Don and Rita had guns in the 9 house? 10 A. No. 11 Q. What kind of sense did you get from the 12 family, from Rita's family and if you talked to Tim 13 Tobin's family, about their thoughts on what had 14 happened? 15 A. I'm going to answer a different question, so I 16 may not be answering your question. But I just have a 17 desire to say what I recall. 18 Q. Okay. 19 A. I mentioned it was a shock. It was an 20 absolute shock that the person I knew, Don, would or 21 could have it in him to do what happened. That was 22 totally out of character, out of context. I just have 23 that deep sense of sadness because this was not the man 24 I knew. I mean, it's like I don't want to believe it, 25 and yet it's there. The evidence is too obvious. And 39 1 so it -- I mean, and now I'm saying I don't know. That 2 was me. 3 Now, it seemed like I was sharing the same 4 experience of the people around. That was a common 5 denominator, thread, the gentle caring person that I 6 knew Don to be. It was so out of context, out of 7 character. It makes no sense. It doesn't, it didn't. 8 Q. Did you conduct or -- and I don't know what 9 the right word is. Did you perform the funeral 10 service? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And it's my understanding that that funeral 13 service included all four of them; is that correct? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And then they had a separate -- 16 A. Separate services or graveside or something 17 back in Montana, as I remember. 18 Q. For Deb and the baby; is that right? Okay. 19 Do you recall there being some concern on Tim 20 Tobin's part about the funeral services being held 21 together for the four of them? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And what was that concern based on? 24 MR. FITZGERALD: Irrelevant. 25 Q. (BY MS. WESTBY) And you can go ahead and 40 1 answer. 2 A. I remember that part because Tim was so upset 3 with his father-in-law, even in death, that he didn't 4 want anything to do with him. He didn't want the 5 physical connection, as if that would make a big 6 difference. Because it was an emotional struggle for 7 him. 8 Q. How did it happen, then, that even with those 9 concerns the funerals ended up being held together? 10 A. I'm not sure who makes the final decision on 11 that. But somehow, within the family constellation, 12 they came to that decision. As I recall, I certainly 13 didn't think it was inappropriate, because it was the 14 tragedy that affected all of those people there and the 15 community there. And it seems like it was a compromise, 16 if I can remember, that we have this community grieving 17 process, which would be a healthy thing. And then where 18 the final burial takes place, it was his decision. 19 Anyway, I presumed as the remaining guardian or whatever 20 you call those folks that are left. 21 Q. Do you recall anything else that you may have 22 done or participated in following being notified of 23 their deaths? 24 A. I don't know what you're asking for. 25 Q. Okay. Basically, I'm just asking if there was 41 1 anything -- you know, any information that was brought 2 to your attention that you viewed as significant 3 following their deaths. 4 A. I don't know what the facts are, but I know 5 what I heard. As a possible explanation, somebody said, 6 and there seemed to be a sense that -- 7 MR. FITZGERALD: Excuse me one second 8 before you go further. The question calls for hearsay. 9 Go ahead. 10 A. That's exactly what I said, yeah. 11 MR. FITZGERALD: These are lawyer things 12 that we have to do. 13 A. Oh. Do what you got to do. The one thing 14 that made any sense in this tragedy was that I had heard 15 that his medications were changed very recently, like 16 the day -- I mean, within hours or days. Now, that's 17 what I remember hearing. And I'm thinking -- and that 18 would have -- could have made some semblance of 19 reasonableness of why that happened. 20 Q. (BY MS. WESTBY) Do you remember where you got 21 that information from? 22 A. I do not. But it certainly wasn't just me 23 privately hearing that. It was certainly common talk. 24 I do not know its origin. 25 Q. Okay. 42 1 A. And that's why -- well, what Don apparently 2 did was so foreign to Don, the person I knew. That's 3 all I can say with some clarity, with some 4 definitiveness. 5 Q. Okay. But you would agree that he suffered 6 from depression prior to this time? 7 A. I did say that. 8 MR. FITZGERALD: Lack of foundation. 9 A. I did say that he had, you know, periods of 10 ups and downs. 11 Q. (BY MS. WESTBY) Okay. 12 A. But that in no way answers the question of why 13 a person would, you know -- that's a clear break from 14 his normal life and livelihood, lifestyle. He was a 15 gentle person. I don't know if you want to know that. 16 Q. Okay. 17 A. I mean, he was just a nice guy. And as far as 18 I knew, a good husband, a good father. And I do know 19 with some personal awareness, his great love for his 20 family. And that's why it just bothers my mind to think 21 that this could happen. 22 Q. Did you ever go to the Schells' home when Don 23 was suffering from depression or sadness or something? 24 A. I want to say no, because mostly it was the 25 other way around. He would come to the office. 43 1 Q. Okay. Were you aware of any concern by Don or 2 Rita Schell about suicide or Don feeling like he wanted 3 to commit suicide? 4 A. I was not. 5 Q. When you were aware that Don was sad or 6 depressed, did you notice any physical manifestations of 7 that? 8 A. No. I mean, nothing unusual which was noted 9 to a startling degree. 10 Q. Did you notice any shaking, his hands 11 shaking? 12 A. No. That's what I mean. 13 Q. Okay. What about -- what was it about his 14 physical demeanor that led you to believe when he didn't 15 come right out and tell you that he was sad or 16 depressed? 17 A. That's when he did come out and say, we would 18 visit. 19 Q. Okay. Did you -- 20 A. To me, that gesture that I mentioned earlier 21 in the church was an example. If you want to know 22 physical reaction, when he would sit in the pew and put 23 his hands out on either side of himself and hold on to 24 the pew. Now, look how it looks from where you sit 25 right now. That does not look normal, does it? 44 1 Q. No, it doesn't. 2 A. It does not, okay. So he puts his hands out 3 straight -- you know, across the top of the pew. That 4 would be one of those physical indicators that things 5 were not as they were months before. I'm just simply 6 saying, how does a human being express the -- I mean, I 7 guess I'm just theorizing now. 8 How does anybody be who they are? Well, they 9 have behaviors or mannerisms. And I'm not recalling any 10 other than that one, because it was noticeable. But I 11 don't have any unique or specific -- I mean, I don't 12 recall any expressions of nervousness or excitement. 13 Depression is the opposite, I believe. And it was just 14 that he would be more quiet or more slow or more 15 subdued, I think is an accurate word. 16 Q. Okay. Did you ever see Rita cry? 17 A. Why do you ask that question? 18 Q. I'm wondering -- it sounds like she did not 19 exhibit emotions very much. And I was just wondering if 20 you ever saw her cry. 21 MR. FITZGERALD: The question may assume 22 facts not in evidence. 23 A. I don't recall. I just thought highly of 24 Rita, of her strength, tenacity, her persistent love. 25 MS. WESTBY: Okay, Father Ogg, I think 45 1 I'm finished unless I have something after 2 Mr. Fitzgerald's questions. 3 CROSS-EXAMINATION 4 Q. (BY MR. FITZGERALD) Father Ogg, I want to 5 clarify a few things. You described a physical way that 6 Don sat in the pew with his arms outstretched and said 7 that that to you is a physical indicator that things at 8 that time were not the way they had been months before. 9 I'm sure you recall saying that just a few minutes ago? 10 A. I do. 11 Q. Now, I need to inquire about what time frame 12 you're talking about. So I'll ask you a couple of 13 specific questions. Are you talking about a particular 14 time when he sat that way that indicated to you that 15 things were not the way they were a few months before? 16 A. A particular time meaning one unique 17 experience? 18 Q. Well, what I'm trying to figure out is are you 19 saying that he would do that from time to time, or that 20 you noticed it just before these deaths, or what are you 21 talking about? 22 A. I think I'm talking about that would be one of 23 those cyclic things that I mentioned, which I don't 24 recall the time between them. But that happened more 25 than once. And it -- it may have been when I was just 46 1 being asked to review in my memory, how I would know 2 things were different. That may have been one of those 3 indicators. 4 Q. Okay. I take it you're not saying that you 5 recall that, you know, shortly before these incidents, 6 he exhibited this gesture and that told you things 7 weren't the way they were months before. You're not 8 saying that, are you? 9 A. I am not saying that. I'm saying that on 10 occasion -- and it was -- it's memorable. So it 11 happened -- and I know it did happen more than once. It 12 happened a number of times. I can't guess whether that 13 was 4 or 12. I don't know that. But I remember when he 14 did that, it was another expression of change in his 15 emotional condition, I guess. 16 Q. Okay. And this happened over the years, as I 17 take it is what you're saying? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Would it be correct, then, to say you're not 20 aware of any significant pattern change in his behavior 21 or physical manifestations or whatever in the months 22 before this incident? 23 A. That is correct. 24 Q. Okay. 25 A. In other words, the patterns would not have 47 1 given me a clue or a hint or an indication that things 2 were getting noticeably worse or better. 3 Q. Okay. And I take it, Father Ogg, you'd 4 probably describe yourself pretty much as a people 5 person, wouldn't you? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And you tend to watch people pretty carefully, 8 especially in your flock, shall we say? 9 A. I tend to do that. 10 Q. Father Ogg, this case is set for trial 11 starting May 21st, and it will last about 3 weeks. Will 12 you be in Wyoming during that time period? 13 A. I'd like not to be. Already I see the 14 handwriting on the wall. Good God. 15 Q. Do you have any current plans to be absent 16 from the state at that time? 17 A. Give me the time frame again. 18 Q. May 21st. It's the last -- essentially the 19 last ten days of May and about the first ten days in 20 June. 21 A. We have -- June is our annual clergy retreat 22 always, the first full week of June. That one I'm sure 23 of. In May, there's some clergy anniversaries. In 24 fact, isn't it Father Ruzicka in Cheyenne, his 25th, and 25 we priests support each other in that way. 48 1 Q. Yes. Will either of those events take place 2 outside the state of Wyoming? 3 A. The retreat, yes. 4 Q. Where will that be? 5 A. Sacred Heart Retreat House in Sedalia, 6 Colorado. 7 Q. And you'll start that in the first full week 8 of June? 9 A. We start Monday, and it ends Friday. 10 Q. Before that time, you'll be in Wyoming, even 11 though you may be outside your own parish? 12 A. I presume so. I could look and see more 13 clear. But I think so. 14 Q. All right. Well, I have no other questions at 15 this time, Father Ogg. Thank you. 16 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 17 Q. (BY MS. WESTBY) I have two quick ones. Do 18 you remember the last time that you saw Don and/or Rita 19 Schell prior to their deaths? 20 A. No. Specifically the exact day, no. 21 Q. Okay. And so I'm assuming because that answer 22 is no, that there was nothing that caused you concern 23 about the time that you saw them immediately prior to 24 their deaths? 25 A. Correct. 49 1 Q. And then this is strictly for my purposes, if 2 I need to go to the Court to see if we can get 3 additional information. Do you have information about 4 what took place in the counseling that Sister Agnes 5 Clare was doing with Don and Rita Schell? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Okay. 8 A. If I heard that question correctly. 9 Q. Did Don and/or Rita Schell talk to you about 10 what they were counseling with Sister Agnes Clare 11 about? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Did Sister Agnes Clare talk to you about her 14 counseling sessions with Don and Rita Schell? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Did Rita Schell confide in you or discuss with 17 you specific concerns about Don Schell -- I'll just 18 leave it at that. 19 A. I did say yes earlier insofar as she was 20 concerned about his being depressed or down. 21 Q. Okay. 22 A. That was early on. Years before. 23 Q. Okay. But do you have more specific 24 information than you're giving me? 25 A. No. 50 1 Q. Are you withholding any information, then, 2 based on the -- either the priest penitent privilege or 3 the psychological counseling privilege confidentiality? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Okay. Then I'm just going to ask one other 6 question. Do you have any more specific information 7 than what you've told me about concerns that Rita had 8 about Don? 9 A. I do not. 10 Q. Do you have any more specific information than 11 what you've given me about Rita's concerns with her 12 marriage or with her relationship with Don? 13 MR. FITZGERALD: The question assumes 14 facts not in evidence. 15 A. Again, could you repeat the question? 16 MS. WESTBY: Okay. Can you read the 17 question back for me, Vonni? 18 (Record read.) 19 MR. FITZGERALD: Same objection. 20 A. No. 21 Q. (BY MS. WESTBY) Okay. Do you have any other 22 information about Don's problems that he confided in you 23 or that he told you about? 24 A. I do not. 25 Q. Okay. I think that's all the questions I 51 1 have. 2 MR. FITZGERALD: Well, I've got some 3 redirect here then or recross for me. 4 RECROSS-EXAMINATION 5 Q. (BY MR. FITZGERALD) Father Ogg, the 6 implication here is that there's something wrong with 7 this marriage. And I want to ask you about your 8 observations specifically. You saw these people a lot, 9 were at their home, you saw them at your church; were 10 they a loving couple? 11 A. I would say they had a good marriage. Now, is 12 that answering your question? See, I'm just saying, 13 yes, they cared for each other. I think I heard the 14 questions implying that maybe there was something wrong 15 with the marriage, per se, in itself. And I'd say no. 16 That the stress or the strain that may have been in the 17 marriage was because Don was not on top of his game. 18 Q. Okay. And would it be correct to characterize 19 what you saw in the way of concerns as loving concerns 20 on Rita's part about Don? 21 MS. WESTBY: I'm going to object to the 22 form of the question. 23 A. Well, you define loving, and I might even 24 answer that question. 25 Q. (BY MR. FITZGERALD) Okay. Was she 52 1 expressing -- was the concern that you detected, was 2 that, in your observation, was that concern that she 3 needed to get out of the marriage, or she needed to, you 4 know, make a radical change in their relationship? Or 5 was it more along the lines of I love my husband, Don. 6 I want the best for him, and I have some concerns about 7 him because I want to have him be the best he can be? 8 MS. WESTBY: I'm going to object to the 9 form of the question. 10 A. I'm not sure you like my words. But I think 11 I'm trying to say that she was a dedicated wife. She 12 was not -- the issue was not their relationship. It was 13 her concern. 14 Now, this may not be appropriate either. But 15 by contrast, I have dealt with a number of people who, 16 you know, don't maintain a relationship when they have 17 stress in the relationship or because one refuses or is 18 unable to change or grow. In this case, Rita stayed 19 with, and as far as I can tell and as far as I know, 20 voluntarily and eagerly to be helpful. 21 Q. (BY MR. FITZGERALD) Okay. Let me just -- 22 A. So just because it's Valentine's Day doesn't 23 mean you have to push loving in there so much. I don't 24 know what another person means by that. 25 Q. Well, Rita was a dedicated wife in your 53 1 observation, right? 2 A. Yes, I would say that. 3 Q. The issue, then, was not the relationship 4 between them, was it? 5 A. To my knowledge, no. 6 Q. Okay. By contrast, whereas other couples you 7 know might work toward getting out of the relationship, 8 what you saw here was that Rita stayed with Don 9 voluntarily and eagerly, correct? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Okay. 12 A. Eagerly, yeah. I don't know how you judge a 13 motive of a human being, but that was the impression. 14 Q. Okay. I have no other questions. Thank you 15 very much, Father Ogg. 16 FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION 17 Q. (BY MS. WESTBY) I just have two more. And I 18 keep thinking of things and I'm sorry. Did Rita ever 19 express any fear of Don to you? 20 A. I would not use that word. No fear. Concern, 21 yes. But concern for his well-being, not concern for 22 her in reference to him. I never heard that. 23 Q. Would you describe Don as possessive of Rita? 24 MR. FITZGERALD: The question is vague. 25 A. I would say he was devoted to her. I don't 54 1 know. I don't know. 2 Q. (BY MS. WESTBY) Okay. Did you ever see any 3 signs that he was controlling or possessive in any way 4 of Rita? 5 MR. FITZGERALD: The question is vague 6 and compound. 7 A. See, I can't answer that. If I were 8 counseling with them, I would be able to, I suppose, 9 with some more clarity or accuracy in answer to that 10 question. But I didn't enter the relationship at any 11 point as analyzing or assessing the relationship to that 12 degree. 13 Q. (BY MS. WESTBY) Okay. 14 A. That was not my intention. 15 Q. Okay. 16 A. And so I don't have an answer to that. 17 Q. What about any signs of jealousy? Did you 18 ever see any signs of jealousy just in your interaction 19 with them, jealousy on the part of Don with regard to 20 Rita? 21 A. For the same reason, I don't know the answer 22 to that. 23 Q. Okay. I think that's all I have. 24 MR. FITZGERALD: No questions. 25 MS. WESTBY: Father Ogg, you have the 55 1 right to read and sign your deposition. That gives you 2 the chance to look it over and make sure that spellings 3 and dates are right. Or you can waive that, and you 4 don't have to do that. But I recommend that you look it 5 over and just make sure that everything is accurate. 6 THE WITNESS: I would be able and eager 7 to do that, to look it over. 8 MS. WESTBY: And is this the address 9 that you want your transcript sent to? 10 THE WITNESS: Box 818, yes. 11 (Deposition proceedings concluded 12 at 10:29 a.m., February 13, 2001.) 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 56 1 DEPONENT'S CERTIFICATE 2 I, FATHER THOMAS OGG, do hereby certify 3 that I have read the foregoing transcript of my 4 testimony consisting of 55 pages, taken on February 13, 5 2001 and that the same is a full, true and correct 6 record of my deposition. 7 8 FATHER THOMAS OGG 9 10 ( ) No changes ( ) Changes attached 11 12 13 Subscribed and sworn to before me this 14 day of , 2001. 15 16 17 Notary Public 18 19 20 21 My commission expires: 22 23 24 25 57 1 C E R T I F I C A T E 2 I, VONNI R. BRAY, Registered Professional 3 Reporter, and Notary Public of the State of Wyoming, do 4 hereby certify that FATHER THOMAS OGG was by me first 5 duly sworn to testify to the truth, the whole truth, and 6 nothing but the truth; 7 That the foregoing transcript, consisting of 8 55 typewritten pages, is a true record of the testimony 9 given by the said deponent, together with all other 10 proceedings herein contained. 11 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my 12 hand and affixed my Notarial Seal this day of 13 February, 2001. 14 15 16 17 VONNI R. BRAY, RPR 18 19 My commission expires July 6, 2003. 20 21 22 23 24 25