1

 
        1
 
        2            IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
 
        3                FOR THE DISTRICT OF WYOMING
 
        4                Civil Action No. 00_CV_025D
 
        5
 
        6  ________________________________________________________
 
        7  THE ESTATES OF DEBORAH MARIE
           TOBIN and ALYSSA ANN TOBIN,
        8  Deceased, by TIMOTHY JOHN TOBIN,
           Personal Representative; and THE
        9  ESTATES OF DONALD JACK SCHELL
           and RITA CHARLOTTE SCHELL,
       10  Deceased, by NEVA KAY HARDY,
           Personal Representative,
       11
                           Plaintiffs,
       12
               v.
       13
           SMITHKLINE BEECHAM
       14  PHARMACEUTICALS,
 
       15                  Defendant.
 
       16  ________________________________________________________
 
       17
 
       18
                          DEPOSITION OF TIMOTHY TOBIN
       19                Taken in behalf of Defendant
 
       20                      9:05 a.m., Monday
                            December 4, 2000
       21
 
       22            PURSUANT TO NOTICE, the deposition of Timothy
           Tobin was taken in accordance with the applicable
       23  Federal Rules of Civil Procedure at the Campbell County
           Courthouse, Gillette, Wyoming, before John E. Walz, a
       24  Registered Merit Reporter and a Notary Public of the
           State of Wyoming.
       25

 

 
                                                              2

 
        1                   A P P E A R A N C E S
 
        2  For the Plaintiffs:   Mr. ANDY VICKERY
                                 Attorney at Law
        3                        Vickery & Waldner
                                 2929 Allen Parkway, Suite 2410
        4                        Houston, Texas  77019
 
        5  For the Defendant:    Mr. THOMAS GORMAN
                                 Attorney at Law
        6                        Hirst & Applegate
                                 1720 Carey Avenue, Suite 200
        7                        P.O. Box 1083
                                 Cheyenne, Wyoming  82003_1083
        8
                                 Mr. CHARLES F. PREUSS
        9                        Attorney at Law
                                 Preuss, Schanacher, Zvoleff &
       10                          Zimmer
                                 225 Bush Street, 15th Floor
       11                        San Francisco, CA  94104_4207
 
       12
 
       13
 
       14
 
       15
                                   I N D E X
       16
                                                            PAGE
       17
           DEPOSITION OF TIMOTHY TOBIN:
       18
           Examination
       19  By Mr. Preuss                                      3
 
       20
 
       21
 
       22
 
       23
 
       24
 
       25

 

 
                                                              3

 
        1                    P R O C E E D I N G S
 
        2                       TIMOTHY TOBIN,
 
        3  called for examination by the defendant, being first
 
        4  duly sworn, on his oath testified as follows:
 
        5                        EXAMINATION
 
        6  BY MR. PREUSS:
 
        7      Q.    Mr. Tobin, as I introduced myself a little bit
 
        8  earlier, my name is Chuck Preuss and I represent
 
        9  SmithKline in this matter.  We're going to be asking you
 
       10  some questions about the circumstances surrounding the
 
       11  death of your wife.  I know that it's going to be tough
 
       12  for you from time to time.  I want you to know that at
 
       13  any time when you feel that you need to take a break or
 
       14  take a moment to compose yourself, please do that.
 
       15      A.    Okay.
 
       16      Q.    Also, I necessarily will have to ask you
 
       17  questions in and around that area.  I know that's going
 
       18  to be tough for you, too.  But it's important that I do
 
       19  that to represent my clients in the same way Mr. Vickery
 
       20  represents you.
 
       21      A.    I understand.
 
       22      Q.    Your full name for the record, sir?
 
       23      A.    Timothy John Tobin.
 
       24      Q.    Your date of birth?
 
       25      A.    April 6th, 1968.

 

 
                                                              4

 
        1      Q.    Where were you born?
 
        2      A.    Redwood City, California.
 
        3      Q.    And where were you raised?
 
        4      A.    I was raised partially in Montana, around
 
        5  Helena, and partially in Honolulu and Maui, Hawaii.
 
        6      Q.    Where did you graduate from high school?
 
        7      A.    Mid_Pacific Institute, which was in Honolulu,
 
        8  Hawaii.
 
        9      Q.    What was your father's occupation?
 
       10      A.    He was a CPA.
 
       11      Q.    Do you have education beyond high school?
 
       12      A.    Yeah.  I went to University of Southern
 
       13  California for three years and then to Rocky Mountain
 
       14  College up in Billings and completed the aviation
 
       15  program.
 
       16      Q.    What was the aviation program all about?
 
       17      A.    It was just one of those __ a four_year
 
       18  program to become a commercial pilot.  So it was towards
 
       19  getting into the flight instructing and then working
 
       20  your way up into the airlines or whatever you chose to
 
       21  do at that point.
 
       22      Q.    So when you were down at USC, you got the idea
 
       23  that you wanted to fly?
 
       24      A.    Yeah.  Actually, I took a semester off, and I
 
       25  had always liked flying, and my mom's husband was a

 

 
                                                              5

 
        1  pilot and my cousin was a pilot and my uncle, my great
 
        2  uncle.  And so I decided I might as well do what I
 
        3  enjoy.  So I tried to go to business school, and that
 
        4  wasn't really doing much for me.
 
        5      Q.    That was at USC?
 
        6      A.    Yeah.
 
        7      Q.    That business course?
 
        8      A.    Yeah.  And so, it just seemed like the easy
 
        9  way to finish school, because I enjoyed doing that.
 
       10      Q.    So, did you get your aviation degree then at
 
       11  Rocky Mountain __
 
       12      A.    I did.
 
       13      Q.    __ College?  And do you have a license today?
 
       14      A.    Yeah, I have a commercial license, commercial
 
       15  instrument.
 
       16      Q.    Do you fly regularly?
 
       17      A.    I haven't for quite a few years.  When Deb and
 
       18  I met, I kind of changed my approach on it.  I didn't
 
       19  want to be away from home that much, and so I gave it up
 
       20  and just flew periodically.  So I really haven't flown
 
       21  that much, at least for the last eight years.
 
       22      Q.    But your license is still active?
 
       23      A.    My medical is current.  I thought I would try
 
       24  to do some flying again here recently because my stepdad
 
       25  bought a plane, and I thought that might be kind of

 

 
                                                              6

 
        1  enjoyable to do again since it's been so long.
 
        2      Q.    Okay.  Now, your stepdad is the commercial
 
        3  pilot.
 
        4      A.    Actually, he's in the oil industry, but he's
 
        5  got like 3,000 hours of flying time.  He used to fly up
 
        6  to Canada and back.  I believe he's got a commercial
 
        7  license also and instrument.
 
        8      Q.    Your parents must have divorced then.  Is that
 
        9  right?
 
       10      A.    Yeah.  They divorced when I was 14, I think.
 
       11      Q.    And your mom remarried.
 
       12      A.    Yes.
 
       13      Q.    To the individual that __
 
       14      A.    Yeah.
 
       15      Q.    __ maintains his license.
 
       16      A.    Right.  Carl is his name.
 
       17      Q.    What's Carl's last name?
 
       18      A.    Durant, D_u_r_a_n_t.
 
       19      Q.    And where do Mr. Durant and your mom live?
 
       20      A.    They live in Billings, and Carl actually works
 
       21  down here in Gillette.
 
       22      Q.    Do you see them on a regular basis?
 
       23      A.    Yeah.  We do quite a bit together.  We're
 
       24  pretty close.
 
       25      Q.    Do you have any brothers and sisters?

 

 
                                                              7

 
        1      A.    One brother, older.  He went to film school at
 
        2  USC and lives down in __ they just moved to Long Beach.
 
        3      Q.    He's married and has a family?
 
        4      A.    No.  My brother is actually gay, and him and
 
        5  his friend live __ they have been together for quite a
 
        6  while.
 
        7      Q.    How often do you see your brother?
 
        8      A.    Quite a bit.  I would say at least a couple
 
        9  times a year, sometimes more.
 
       10      Q.    During the holiday season or __
 
       11      A.    Yeah.  And sometimes he takes __ he's a writer
 
       12  and does some part_time work.  And he just took a
 
       13  full_time job, so I haven't been able to see him as much
 
       14  as I would like to.
 
       15      Q.    What's your brother's name?
 
       16      A.    Patrick.
 
       17      Q.    Where does your stepdad work?
 
       18      A.    He works for Enron in town.  Just started
 
       19  working, I guess, two years ago for them,
 
       20  approximately.  I'm not really sure.
 
       21      Q.    So, is flying one of your hobbies then?
 
       22      A.    It hasn't been since I gave it up.  I actually
 
       23  gladly gave it up.  I enjoyed it, but it's kind of
 
       24  expensive.  So, I like to go up every now and then.
 
       25  It's more of just a very periodic hobby, I guess, more

 

 
                                                              8

 
        1  than anything.  So I haven't kept my license current in
 
        2  terms of the hours flying.
 
        3      Q.    Do you have other hobbies that you enjoy?
 
        4      A.    I read quite a bit.
 
        5      Q.    Any subject matter that is a favorite?
 
        6      A.    Not really.  I have actually been reading the
 
        7  Harry Potter books here recently.
 
        8      Q.    Fiction or nonfiction is not a distinction for
 
        9  you?
 
       10      A.    No, just whatever is __ my mother reads quite
 
       11  a bit.  She reads probably a book a week, and so I
 
       12  usually read whatever spins off from hers, and half the
 
       13  time I can't remember the titles or the author.  Just
 
       14  something to keep my mind busy.
 
       15      Q.    Is your mom in the teaching field?
 
       16      A.    No.  She has a lamp store, a custom lamp store
 
       17  in Billings, which she started a couple years ago.
 
       18      Q.    You may have told me, and if you did, I
 
       19  apologize.  How long have your mom and stepdad lived in
 
       20  Billings?
 
       21      A.    Since probably '84.  When my folks got
 
       22  divorced, my mom moved to Billings where my
 
       23  grandparents __ that's where my grandparents were
 
       24  living.  So she decided to come back to Montana.
 
       25      Q.    So that would be your maternal grandparents.

 

 
                                                              9

 
        1      A.    Correct.
 
        2      Q.    What are their names?
 
        3      A.    Bill and Lois Kahla, K_a_h_l_a.
 
        4                  MR. VICKERY:  K_a_h_l_a?
 
        5                  THE DEPONENT:  Correct.  It's Arab.
 
        6                  MR. VICKERY:  There are some people near
 
        7  my beach house that have a place called Kahla's Fine
 
        8  Junk.
 
        9                  THE DEPONENT:  Actually, not to change
 
       10  the subject, but my grandparents went through there
 
       11  and __
 
       12                  MR. VICKERY:  Saw that?
 
       13                  THE DEPONENT:  Yeah, got a picture of
 
       14  it.  It's toward the __
 
       15                  MR. VICKERY:  Bolivar Peninsula on the
 
       16  Gulf.
 
       17            I'm sorry.  I didn't mean to jump in there.
 
       18                  MR. PREUSS:  That's okay.
 
       19      Q.    (BY MR. PREUSS)  Where do you presently
 
       20  reside?
 
       21      A.    In Billings.
 
       22      Q.    What address?
 
       23      A.    1831 Avenue D as in dog.
 
       24      Q.    And how long have you lived there?
 
       25      A.    I would say about two years.

 

 
                                                              10

 
        1      Q.    Is it a residence?
 
        2      A.    Yeah.  It's a house.
 
        3      Q.    Do you share the house with anybody else?
 
        4      A.    Yeah, a roommate, John.
 
        5      Q.    John's last name?
 
        6      A.    Clem, C_l_e_m.  And I'm dating somebody that
 
        7  stays there.  Her name is Carrie Hoyt.
 
        8      Q.    C_a_r_e_y?
 
        9      A.    C_a_r_r_i_e.
 
       10      Q.    H_o_y_t?
 
       11      A.    Correct.
 
       12      Q.    And how long has she been living at the house?
 
       13      A.    Probably about three months.
 
       14      Q.    Do you consider her your girlfriend at this
 
       15  point?
 
       16      A.    Yeah, I do.
 
       17      Q.    Any plans for marriage?
 
       18      A.    I don't know.  I need to reconcile quite a bit
 
       19  before I get there, honestly.  I would like to.  She's
 
       20  great.  She's a very nice person.
 
       21      Q.    Is she employed?
 
       22      A.    She sells beads on the Internet through eBay.
 
       23  I know that sounds odd, but __
 
       24                  MR. VICKERY:  Sells beads on the
 
       25  Internet?

 

 
                                                              11

 
        1                  THE DEPONENT:  Beads, yeah.
 
        2      Q.    (BY MR. PREUSS)  Beads, right?
 
        3      A.    Beads, correct.
 
        4      Q.    For like necklace beads.
 
        5      A.    Yeah.
 
        6      Q.    So I take it she can work out of the house?
 
        7      A.    Correct.
 
        8      Q.    How about John?  What does John do for a
 
        9  living?
 
       10      A.    John is going to school right now.  So, he's a
 
       11  good friend of mine that is making a change in his life,
 
       12  and I offered that he could stay at my place.  Kind of
 
       13  lonely at the time and just seemed like a nice thing.
 
       14      Q.    Was he previously married and have a marriage
 
       15  breakup?
 
       16      A.    No.  I think he planned to get married at some
 
       17  point, but he was kind of driven in his career.  And I
 
       18  honestly can't remember what it was.  That's horrible.
 
       19  I think he sold vegetables or something, was a food
 
       20  broker, and decided to go back and get computer degree.
 
       21      Q.    Are you the owner of the house?
 
       22      A.    I am.
 
       23      Q.    So they pay rent to you?
 
       24      A.    No.
 
       25      Q.    They just share.

 

 
                                                              12

 
        1      A.    John __ they pay for bills periodically, but I
 
        2  prefer to keep it as __ they are important people, so I
 
        3  don't __
 
        4      Q.    Okay.  And prior to that, where did you live?
 
        5      A.    2020 Glendale Lane.
 
        6      Q.    How long did you live there?
 
        7      A.    About two years.
 
        8      Q.    So that's where you lived with Debbie and your
 
        9  daughter?
 
       10      A.    Yeah.
 
       11      Q.    And that was a private residence?
 
       12      A.    That was.
 
       13      Q.    And you sold it?
 
       14      A.    Yeah.
 
       15      Q.    When did you sell it?
 
       16      A.    It was about ten months after the girls were
 
       17  killed.  That's approximate.  Honestly, to tell you the
 
       18  truth, I __ it was somewhere around there.
 
       19      Q.    And why did you sell it?
 
       20      A.    I just couldn't live there anymore.  Couldn't
 
       21  go in the rooms.
 
       22      Q.    The memory was too much for you?
 
       23      A.    Uh_huh.
 
       24      Q.    You have to try to answer and yes or no.
 
       25      A.    Oh.  Yes.  Sorry.

 

 
                                                              13

 
        1      Q.    That's all right.  Let me get oriented as to
 
        2  time here.  When did you buy the house at 2020 Glendale?
 
        3      A.    I'm sorry.  I was just thinking.
 
        4      Q.    Take your time.  There is no rush.  Would it
 
        5  have been around 1996?
 
        6      A.    I think it was '97, I believe.
 
        7      Q.    Is that the first home that you owned?
 
        8      A.    Yeah, it was.
 
        9      Q.    What's your job, sir?
 
       10      A.    Currently I do contractor work for Touch
 
       11  America as a fiber_optics instructor.
 
       12      Q.    For Touch America?
 
       13      A.    Correct, yes.
 
       14      Q.    And what is the business of Touch America?
 
       15      A.    They are a telecommunications company, long
 
       16  distance, and they have been putting in fiber, the
 
       17  project I was on was from Billings to Seattle.  They
 
       18  were doing it in conjunction with ATT.  And I was hired
 
       19  as an inspector for Touch, who was the main contractor,
 
       20  and just inspected the construction, actually, of the
 
       21  line.
 
       22      Q.    What background did you have that qualified
 
       23  you for that job?
 
       24      A.    Not much, to tell you the truth.  A guy just
 
       25  took a chance on me.  I was looking for work and he __ I

 

 
                                                              14

 
        1  had a telecommunications background prior.  I was
 
        2  general manager of a small telecom company, but I didn't
 
        3  have any construction experience.  And so I picked that
 
        4  up as I __ it's not unusual for them to hire people that
 
        5  maybe just have __ who mainly are just trustworthy,
 
        6  because you sign off on all the pay sheets.
 
        7      Q.    In other words, you're telling the person that
 
        8  hired you that the contractor that they hired did the
 
        9  job according to the specs.
 
       10      A.    Yes.
 
       11      Q.    How long have you worked for Touch America?
 
       12      A.    I finished up three months ago.  I wasn't
 
       13  feeling well and I had surgery.  They thought I had
 
       14  lymphoma, and so I asked to get off the project early.
 
       15  I didn't continue my basic commitment and wanted to get
 
       16  that cleared up.  They have another project starting in
 
       17  February that they have put me on the list for.
 
       18      Q.    So, right now you're unemployed?
 
       19      A.    Correct.
 
       20      Q.    When did you start working for Touch America
 
       21  as an independent contractor?
 
       22      A.    I got hired in April.  Excuse me.  No.  I'm
 
       23  sorry.  It was the end of February.
 
       24      Q.    Of 2000?
 
       25      A.    Of 1999.  Excuse me.  I'm sorry.  It was

 

 
                                                              15

 
        1  2000.
 
        2      Q.    Was that the first project for them that you
 
        3  were hired?
 
        4      A.    Yes.
 
        5      Q.    And prior to that job, by whom were you
 
        6  employed?
 
        7      A.    WCS Telecom.
 
        8      Q.    Is that the small __
 
        9      A.    Yes.
 
       10      Q.    __ company for which you were a general
 
       11  manager?
 
       12      A.    Yes.
 
       13      Q.    They are out of Billings as well?
 
       14      A.    Yes.
 
       15      Q.    And what was their business?
 
       16      A.    Just long distance, consumer long distance.
 
       17      Q.    So that was selling long distance to
 
       18  consumers?
 
       19      A.    Correct, yeah.
 
       20      Q.    How long were you the general manager there?
 
       21      A.    I worked for them for probably four, four and
 
       22  a half years.
 
       23      Q.    Did you work your way up to the position of
 
       24  general manager or did you __
 
       25      A.    I did, yes.

 

 
                                                              16

 
        1      Q.    About how many people were under your
 
        2  supervision when you left there?
 
        3      A.    About eight.  The sales force came and went,
 
        4  but it was roughly eight.
 
        5      Q.    Was it primarily a sales job?
 
        6      A.    No.  Mine was mainly overseeing __ we had a
 
        7  switch and we were trying to expand.  And so my
 
        8  oversight was just mainly expansion of the switch and
 
        9  carriers that we used on an off_network basis.  That was
 
       10  my main focus.
 
       11      Q.    Before working for WC Telecom, for whom were
 
       12  you working?
 
       13      A.    I worked at a __ for a division of Pulte Homes
 
       14  in Denver.
 
       15      Q.    Could you spell the name, please?
 
       16      A.    It's actually ICM Mortgage.
 
       17      Q.    So it's a division of ICM Mortgage?
 
       18      A.    Yeah.  ICM Mortgage was the division, and
 
       19  Pulte Homes, P_u_l_t_e, they were the mortgage division
 
       20  of a home builder, is who Pulte is.
 
       21      Q.    Pulte is a home builder?
 
       22      A.    Correct and ICM __
 
       23      Q.    The mortgage outfit is ICM Mortgage?
 
       24      A.    Yeah.  Right.  I guess it was a wholly owned
 
       25  subsidiary of Pulte.  It was just their mortgage arm to

 

 
                                                              17

 
        1  help, you know, people buy the houses.
 
        2      Q.    And what was your job?
 
        3      A.    I was a bond loan specialist.  And I just
 
        4  worked with the states on their bond loan programs and
 
        5  coordinated once the loan was closed and needed to be
 
        6  purchased by the state bond program or bond agency.  And
 
        7  so I coordinated, just expedited if there was any
 
        8  problems between when they closed till purchasing the
 
        9  loan.  And that was my job, just making sure that that
 
       10  process was handled.
 
       11      Q.    So this state bond program was a program to
 
       12  help buyers?
 
       13      A.    Correct, right, mainly first_time home buyers
 
       14  or veterans.  It was just another one of the many myriad
 
       15  of loan programs that they have got.
 
       16      Q.    How long did you work for ICM mortgage?
 
       17      A.    About a year and a half.
 
       18      Q.    And were you commuting to Denver?
 
       19      A.    No.  We lived __ Deb and I lived in Denver at
 
       20  that point.
 
       21      Q.    What time frame are we talking about?
 
       22      A.    It was around '94.
 
       23      Q.    Is when you started or __
 
       24      A.    I started in '93, I believe.
 
       25      Q.    When you were with WC Telecom, was that in

 

 
                                                              18

 
        1  Denver or was that in __
 
        2      A.    That was in Billings.
 
        3      Q.    So you moved up there?
 
        4      A.    Correct.
 
        5      Q.    And then changed your job?
 
        6      A.    Yeah.
 
        7      Q.    And why did the two of you decide to move to
 
        8  Billings?
 
        9      A.    We didn't like living in Denver.  It's just
 
       10  too big for our tastes, really.  We had hoped to have a
 
       11  family and we wanted to be around our family.  And
 
       12  Billings was just a nice, happy medium, I guess,
 
       13  between __ where we could move.  I really didn't want to
 
       14  move to Gillette again, because we had lived here for a
 
       15  while as we go farther back, and I didn't want to move
 
       16  anyplace else, really.  It was kind of __ Deb had also
 
       17  decided she wanted to become a special education teacher
 
       18  and get back into teaching.  And so we just kind of made
 
       19  the whole decision that she __ there was a good program
 
       20  in Billings, and so we just agreed it was a good change.
 
       21      Q.    So that would have been roughly '94 then.
 
       22      A.    Yeah, '93, '94.  I can get you the exact
 
       23  dates.
 
       24      Q.    That's fine.  And at that time, your mother
 
       25  and stepfather were living in Billings.  Right?

 

 
                                                              19

 
        1      A.    Yes.
 
        2      Q.    They had been there since '84, if I remember
 
        3  right.
 
        4      A.    Yeah.
 
        5      Q.    And Deb's parents were living here in
 
        6  Gillette.
 
        7      A.    Yes.
 
        8      Q.    All right.  Before ICM Mortgage, then by whom
 
        9  were you employed?
 
       10      A.    I was employed by Amax Coal Company here in
 
       11  town.
 
       12      Q.    I should remember the spelling, but could you
 
       13  help me on that?
 
       14      A.    A_m_a_x.  And I worked in their laboratory.
 
       15      Q.    What was your job?
 
       16      A.    I ran coal samples for compliance.  Each end
 
       17  user has certain criteria that they need to burn coal in
 
       18  their particular facility, and we would run samples for
 
       19  the mine to use so they knew how to make the coal as it
 
       20  was shipped out, and also we did samples so that the end
 
       21  user would have a moisture or sodium, basically the
 
       22  whole analysis so that they knew how to burn it and make
 
       23  sure they were in compliance with whichever state they
 
       24  were in.
 
       25      Q.    So you would get __ a customer would say, we

 

 
                                                              20

 
        1  need coal that will produce so much heat or energy or
 
        2  whatever it is?
 
        3      A.    Correct.  And then you know the waste product,
 
        4  sodium that would be going through for emissions.
 
        5      Q.    And you did the lab tests to make sure that
 
        6  the coal that was being shipped to them complied with
 
        7  those specs?
 
        8      A.    Correct.
 
        9      Q.    Who was your boss when you were in the lab in
 
       10  Gillette?
 
       11      A.    His first name was Sid and last name was
 
       12  Mitchel, M_i_t_c_h_e_l, I believe.
 
       13      Q.    Is he still working with Amax?
 
       14      A.    You know, I don't know.  I have fallen out of
 
       15  touch.  Seems like a long time ago.
 
       16      Q.    Almost ten years.  How long did you work in
 
       17  the lab for Amax?
 
       18      A.    That was about a year and a half, a year to a
 
       19  year and a half, probably about 13 months, 14 months.
 
       20      Q.    Was it right after you got married?
 
       21      A.    It was __ I started working before we got
 
       22  married, a little bit, and then it was a little bit
 
       23  afterwards, yeah.  So it was right around that time, '91
 
       24  and '92.
 
       25      Q.    Did you start that job when you started living

 

 
                                                              21

 
        1  at Deb's parents' house?
 
        2      A.    Yes.  A little bit after.  I looked for work
 
        3  and worked at a temporary service out in the oil field
 
        4  just to make ends meet.
 
        5      Q.    When did you first meet Deb?
 
        6      A.    I met her in school in '89.
 
        7      Q.    "In school" being Rocky Mountain?
 
        8      A.    Yes.  I'm sorry.  Yeah, Rocky Mountain.
 
        9      Q.    So you would have been a senior.  Right?
 
       10      A.    Yeah.  I was a five_year_plan man.
 
       11      Q.    Much to your parents' pleasure?
 
       12      A.    Right.  Deb was a senior.
 
       13      Q.    Okay.  You were in your fifth year?
 
       14      A.    Yeah.
 
       15      Q.    So you had been there one year.
 
       16      A.    Right.  I'm sorry.  That year, I had just come
 
       17  up.  That was my first semester.
 
       18      Q.    You were in your __ you had been three years
 
       19  at USC.  Right?
 
       20      A.    Three years, took a semester off and then
 
       21  finished up that, I guess it would be __ it would have
 
       22  been this semester or this time of the year.  And so
 
       23  that's what forced me into the fifth year, in addition
 
       24  to the fact that I had all the flying to do.  So I had
 
       25  my __ all the prerequisites done, basically, but I had

 

 
                                                              22

 
        1  to complete all the flying.
 
        2      Q.    All right.  So you started dating her senior
 
        3  year and __
 
        4      A.    Really would have been my junior year, I
 
        5  guess, but by credits, yeah, I guess it would have been
 
        6  about my junior year.
 
        7      Q.    Okay.  Your junior year creditwise and fourth
 
        8  year of college training.  Right?
 
        9      A.    Yeah.  I hope no one else did it in four.
 
       10                  MR. VICKERY:  It took all of us five or
 
       11  six years.  Don't worry about it.
 
       12      Q.    (BY MR. PREUSS)  What was her major in
 
       13  college?
 
       14      A.    Elementary education.
 
       15      Q.    Did she get her teaching degree?
 
       16      A.    She did.
 
       17      Q.    And that qualified her to teach at what
 
       18  levels?
 
       19      A.    Kindergarten through eighth grade.
 
       20      Q.    So, once you started dating, did you just date
 
       21  her through your college up here?
 
       22      A.    Yeah.
 
       23      Q.    And eventually got married.
 
       24      A.    Correct.
 
       25      Q.    When were you graduated, then, from Rocky

 

 
                                                              23

 
        1  Mountain?
 
        2      A.    It was the last __ it was the semester that
 
        3  ended in '91.
 
        4      Q.    So June '91?
 
        5      A.    Yeah.
 
        6      Q.    That's when she got her degree?
 
        7      A.    She actually finished before I did.  She did
 
        8  it in four years, and she worked at a __ when we met in
 
        9  '89, it was her last semester.  And then she tried to
 
       10  get some teaching, but it was kind of tight in Billings
 
       11  at the time for teachers.  And so she worked at a
 
       12  computer company.
 
       13      Q.    What was the name of it, if you remember?
 
       14      A.    Computers Unlimited.
 
       15      Q.    What was her job?
 
       16      A.    She was the assistant to the __ I think he was
 
       17  the head of sales.
 
       18      Q.    So was that a floor sales job?
 
       19      A.    No.  She just was mainly a secretary, I guess
 
       20  is what it would be.  There was a little bit more than
 
       21  that.  She handled __ she didn't necessarily do typing.
 
       22  She just was more like as an assistant, I guess, but
 
       23  not __
 
       24      Q.    Administrative assistant?
 
       25      A.    Yeah.  I guess that would be it, yeah,

 

 
                                                              24

 
        1  administrative assistant.
 
        2      Q.    And so she hung around there while you were
 
        3  finishing up.  Is that a fair statement?
 
        4      A.    Yeah.
 
        5      Q.    And then you continued to date?
 
        6      A.    Yes.
 
        7      Q.    And then when you got your degree, then did
 
        8  you move up here?
 
        9      A.    We were kind of deciding what to do at that
 
       10  point.  And we decided to get married.  I asked Deb to
 
       11  marry me at Christmastime.  And we decided to come up to
 
       12  Gillette.
 
       13            We had spent Christmas with my parents in
 
       14  Phoenix, and we decided that it would be nice to get
 
       15  married in Gillette since that's where Deb grew up and
 
       16  she had a lot of roots here.  And her parents were very
 
       17  devout Catholic.  We thought it would be nice to get
 
       18  married here.
 
       19            So we came back.  And that's why I got work
 
       20  here, mainly just because we wanted to have a summer
 
       21  wedding, and we thought it would be nice to just kind of
 
       22  be able to be here and plan it here instead of trying to
 
       23  move someplace else and then come back here.  We were
 
       24  flexible.  So it worked out.
 
       25      Q.    So we're talking about that Christmas of '90?

 

 
                                                              25

 
        1      A.    Christmas of '90, yes.
 
        2                  MR. VICKERY:  '90 or '91?
 
        3      A.    '91, actually.
 
        4                  MR. VICKERY:  He said he graduated in
 
        5  June '91.
 
        6                  THE DEPONENT:  Yeah, so it would have
 
        7  been __
 
        8      Q.    (BY MR. PREUSS)  Well, okay.  Then I'm a day
 
        9  off somewhere.  In '89 __ I thought she got out of her
 
       10  fourth year in '89.
 
       11      A.    She did.  And then I had another __
 
       12      Q.    Year, right?
 
       13      A.    __ year.
 
       14      Q.    So that would take us to June of '90.
 
       15      A.    Right.
 
       16      Q.    And then you decided to get married at
 
       17  Christmas?
 
       18      A.    Yeah.
 
       19      Q.    Or did I miss a year?
 
       20      A.    No.  We decided to get married Christmas.
 
       21      Q.    So it is December of '90 then.
 
       22      A.    No.  I'm sorry.  I seem to have __
 
       23                  MR. VICKERY:  He went in the fall of
 
       24  '89.  She graduated in the spring of '90.
 
       25                  THE DEPONENT:  Yeah, that's right.

 

 
                                                              26

 
        1                  MR. PREUSS:  Okay.  That's __
 
        2                  THE DEPONENT:  It's been long time ago.
 
        3                  MR. PREUSS:  It's going to be close
 
        4  enough.  We ought to be able to get it in the space of a
 
        5  year.  I'll keep working on it.
 
        6      Q.    (BY MR. PREUSS)  Okay.  So you met her in the
 
        7  fall of '89.
 
        8      A.    Yeah.
 
        9      Q.    She got out or graduated in June of '90.
 
       10      A.    Yeah.
 
       11      Q.    Then that makes sense.
 
       12      A.    Yeah.  I'm sorry.
 
       13      Q.    Then in June of '91, you got your degree.
 
       14      A.    Right.
 
       15      Q.    And she was working in that in_between year
 
       16  with Computers __
 
       17      A.    Correct, yes.
 
       18      Q.    __ Unlimited.  And then I take it your
 
       19  parents, your mom and stepdad, just decided to spend
 
       20  Christmas in Phoenix even though their main residence
 
       21  was in Billings at that point.
 
       22      A.    Yeah.
 
       23      Q.    And then you asked her to marry you that __
 
       24      A.    That Christmas.
 
       25      Q.    __ Christmas.

 

 
                                                              27

 
        1      A.    Right.
 
        2      Q.    And you planned to have a wedding at what
 
        3  time?
 
        4      A.    In July.
 
        5      Q.    Okay.  So that would have been in July of
 
        6  '92.
 
        7      A.    Correct.
 
        8      Q.    And you wanted to have it in Gillette during
 
        9  the summer.  Correct?
 
       10      A.    Yes.
 
       11      Q.    So in Christmas of '90, then, you were
 
       12  employed by whom?  You had been out six months.
 
       13                  MR. VICKERY:  That was Christmas '91.
 
       14                  MR. PREUSS:  '91.  Sorry.
 
       15                  THE DEPONENT:  Now I'm getting
 
       16  confused.
 
       17                  MR. PREUSS:  Well, your lawyer keeps
 
       18  talking.  That's why.  He's getting us both confused.
 
       19                  MR. VICKERY:  Yeah.  I'll shut up.
 
       20                  THE DEPONENT:  No, no.
 
       21                  MR. VICKERY:  You'll guys really have it
 
       22  down.
 
       23      A.    I signed up with a temporary service because
 
       24  there really wasn't that much work at that time here in
 
       25  Gillette, so I kind of took whatever I could get.  So I

 

 
                                                              28

 
        1  really wasn't formally employed.  I worked for Olsten's
 
        2  Temporary Service, and then they would call me out for
 
        3  jobs.  And I worked for different companies at oil field
 
        4  work.  And I wanted to get on with the mine because it
 
        5  paid so well.  I really would have taken anything full
 
        6  time at that point.  So, I guess I was employed by a
 
        7  temporary service.
 
        8      Q.    (BY MR. PREUSS)  Okay.  Until you got married?
 
        9      A.    I got hired on prior to __ working with the
 
       10  temporary service through that time we were in Gillette,
 
       11  I got hired on before we got married.
 
       12      Q.    With Amax.
 
       13      A.    Correct.  And it was __ I can get the date.  I
 
       14  just __ I __
 
       15      Q.    That's all right.
 
       16      A.    I honestly just don't __
 
       17      Q.    Now I'm trying to track you down during the
 
       18  time frame what you got your degree and before you asked
 
       19  Deb to marry you.  What were you doing then?
 
       20      A.    At that point, my __ I'm trying to remember
 
       21  exactly so I don't confuse you.  I had __ was doing some
 
       22  work up at the airport.  I was still thinking maybe I
 
       23  could do something in aviation.  And I kind of was just
 
       24  trying to figure out what I was going to do at that
 
       25  point.  So I had odd jobs.  I washed some planes up at

 

 
                                                              29

 
        1  the airport, but nothing __ again, no formal employment.
 
        2      Q.    Where were you living at the time after you
 
        3  graduated?
 
        4      A.    We had an apartment in Billings.
 
        5      Q.    You and Debbie did?
 
        6      A.    Correct, yes.
 
        7      Q.    So you were living together.
 
        8      A.    We were.
 
        9      Q.    After you graduated.
 
       10      A.    Yeah.  It was before I graduated.  She
 
       11  finished up school and then came home to Gillette for
 
       12  the summer.
 
       13      Q.    Right.
 
       14      A.    And then came back to Billings and got an
 
       15  apartment.  And I was living with my mother and
 
       16  stepdad.  And we just slowly started living together, I
 
       17  guess, at that point.
 
       18      Q.    Okay.  I think I've got it now.
 
       19      A.    Okay.
 
       20      Q.    Thanks.
 
       21                  MR. VICKERY:  See, if I would just shut
 
       22  up, you guys will get it right.
 
       23                  THE DEPONENT:  No.  I __
 
       24      Q.    (BY MR. PREUSS)  When were you married?
 
       25      A.    We were married in '92, July.  I'm sorry.

 

 
                                                              30

 
        1      Q.    Can you give me a date?
 
        2      A.    Yes, July 28th.
 
        3      Q.    And who was your best man?
 
        4      A.    My best man was my brother.
 
        5      Q.    Who were your ushers?
 
        6      A.    My cousin, Bob, a good friend of mine named P.
 
        7  J. Priest.  Bob is Tobin, by the way.  A friend of mine,
 
        8  P. J. Priest, and another friend.  His name was Larry
 
        9  Detweiler.
 
       10      Q.    Where are they located?
 
       11      A.    I have lost touch with __
 
       12      Q.    Both?
 
       13      A.    Both, yeah.  My cousin, he lives in
 
       14  Sacramento.
 
       15      Q.    And what's he do for a living?
 
       16      A.    He's a captain for American Airlines.
 
       17      Q.    Flying runs in the blood.
 
       18      A.    Yeah.
 
       19                  MR. GORMAN:  He counts every flight.
 
       20                  MR. PREUSS:  That's a private joke.
 
       21                  (Deposition proceedings recessed 9:42
 
       22                  a.m. to 9:44 a.m.)
 
       23      Q.    (BY MR. PREUSS)  So, after July of 1992, then
 
       24  did you start living at Deb's house here?
 
       25      A.    Yeah.

 

 
                                                              31

 
        1      Q.    Actually started before that, didn't you?
 
        2      A.    Yeah, before that.  I'm sorry.  When we
 
        3  decided to get married and we came back from Christmas,
 
        4  we stayed with Don and Rita.  And then until we got
 
        5  married, we lived with them.  Out of respect for them,
 
        6  we just felt it was better __ I know it seems kind of
 
        7  awkward in a way to do it this way, but we just felt
 
        8  since Don and Rita were such devout Catholics, that it
 
        9  was more important, since we were in their house, just
 
       10  to __ and going to get married, that we live separately
 
       11  at their house.
 
       12      Q.    In separate rooms.
 
       13      A.    Yeah.
 
       14      Q.    Did Don insist on that?
 
       15      A.    No.  It was __ Deb felt more comfortable with
 
       16  it that way, and it's her dad, so, you know.  He never
 
       17  really had a problem with us living together.  It's
 
       18  just __ it's a small town.  It was just mainly done out
 
       19  of respect.
 
       20      Q.    Did Don and Rita know that you and Deb were
 
       21  living together in Billings?
 
       22      A.    Yes.
 
       23      Q.    Was her mom a Catholic?
 
       24      A.    I'm sorry.  My mom?
 
       25      Q.    Was Deb's mom a Catholic?

 

 
                                                              32

 
        1      A.    She was.
 
        2      Q.    Was she a Catholic when they got married?
 
        3      A.    No.  She converted, I believe.
 
        4      Q.    Did Don ask her to convert?
 
        5      A.    I honestly don't know.  I have always known
 
        6  them as both Catholic.  I think her __ she may have in
 
        7  fact been a Catholic.  I just know her folks were, I
 
        8  think, Baptist.  So I just assumed that she converted.
 
        9      Q.    Was Deb employed before the marriage when you
 
       10  were living up here?
 
       11      A.    When we were in Gillette living with them?
 
       12      Q.    Right.  After you moved from Billings, I take
 
       13  it she left her job with Computer Unlimited.
 
       14      A.    Right.  After I started working with Olsten's,
 
       15  she used to come in and would look at my paycheck, and
 
       16  she was __ they were looking for somebody, and she was
 
       17  always very nice to them.  And I got along with
 
       18  everybody at Olsten's and so did Deb.  And they hired
 
       19  her to help there.  So she worked for Olsten's also.
 
       20      Q.    So she found you your jobs.
 
       21      A.    No, no.  Well, you know __ no.  I had started
 
       22  working for Olsten's before she went down there.  It's
 
       23  just that in her going down __ my schedule was kind of
 
       24  erratic and we got paid once a week.  So I would have
 
       25  her go down and pick up my paycheck, which they got

 

 
                                                              33

 
        1  issued on __ at whatever time.  So I was usually at work
 
        2  or sleeping, because I had a very strange schedule.  So
 
        3  she would just take care of that.  And they just liked
 
        4  her.  So they were looking for somebody, and they hired
 
        5  her.
 
        6      Q.    Okay.  But you worked on jobs that came to
 
        7  them, and then you went out and worked for whatever
 
        8  temporary job, and then they would give you another job
 
        9  and you would go out and work for them.
 
       10      A.    Yes.
 
       11      Q.    But she was employed by them __
 
       12      A.    By the office itself.
 
       13      Q.    __ as part of their administrative cadre.
 
       14      A.    Yes.
 
       15      Q.    And that was true before you got married and
 
       16  after as well for a while?
 
       17      A.    Yes.
 
       18      Q.    How long did she continue to work with Olsten?
 
       19      A.    We both worked until we decided to go to
 
       20  Denver.
 
       21      Q.    And when was that?
 
       22      A.    Gosh.  You know, it was probably six months or
 
       23  eight months after we got married.  It may have even
 
       24  been a year.  I mean, some of these years overlap.  I
 
       25  was just giving you rough numbers.

 

 
                                                              34

 
        1      Q.    Okay.  So after you got married, where did you
 
        2  live?
 
        3      A.    We lived here in Gillette but in an apartment
 
        4  at Indian Hills.
 
        5      Q.    And then you decided to go to Billings?
 
        6      A.    After Denver, we were there for a while, yes,
 
        7  we decided to go back to Billings.
 
        8      Q.    I'm sorry.  And you moved to Denver for the
 
        9  ICM job?
 
       10      A.    Correct.
 
       11      Q.    Was that the impetus to move?
 
       12      A.    We __ I got that through another temporary
 
       13  service.  I had pretty good luck with getting permanent
 
       14  employment that way.  So, we went __ we had saved up __
 
       15  we were savers and we had some money.  We paid off a lot
 
       16  of our student loans.  I worked a lot of hours.  And we
 
       17  saved up some money and we decided it might be kind of
 
       18  nice just to go down there.
 
       19            Deb had really never lived anyplace other than
 
       20  Gillette and Billings.  And, you know, my first year __
 
       21  our first year of marriage, I was working a very odd
 
       22  schedule.  We just thought it might be nice to get
 
       23  more __ for me to get a more traditional job.  I wanted
 
       24  to and so did Deb.  I would sleep during the day, and if
 
       25  I would work nights, days.  It was an odd shift

 

 
                                                              35

 
        1  schedule.  And so we decided to go down there and I
 
        2  started work at a temporary service.  And luckily, ICM
 
        3  hired me as a temp for a while and then hired me
 
        4  permanently.  But I did not go down for that specific
 
        5  job.
 
        6      Q.    And then you lived in an apartment in Denver
 
        7  then?
 
        8      A.    Yeah.
 
        9      Q.    How long did you live in Denver before you
 
       10  moved to Billings?
 
       11      A.    About a year and a half.
 
       12      Q.    And then when you moved back to Billings,
 
       13  that's where you moved into 1831 Avenue D?
 
       14      A.    No.  That's my current house right now.
 
       15      Q.    I'm sorry.
 
       16      A.    No.  We moved back, and we lived with my mom
 
       17  and my stepdad.  And my stepdad was, at that point,
 
       18  working up in Canada.  And my mom offered to let us stay
 
       19  there.  So we stayed with her and got an apartment and
 
       20  until we actually were close to having Alyssa.  And then
 
       21  we bought the house on 2020 Glendale.  We were rather
 
       22  nomadic.
 
       23      Q.    And was Deb employed when you were in Denver?
 
       24      A.    No __ excuse me.  Yeah.  I thought you were
 
       25  going to say Billings.  She work for Oppenheimer Mutual

 

 
                                                              36

 
        1  Funds, and she was in their customer service.
 
        2      Q.    And she stayed at that job the whole time you
 
        3  were there.
 
        4      A.    Uh_huh.  Yes.
 
        5                  MR. VICKERY:  He's got lots of keys but
 
        6  there is no uh_huh key on that machine.
 
        7      Q.    (BY MR. PREUSS)  And you indicated in
 
        8  anticipation of a question of mine that she was not
 
        9  employed once you moved back to Billings?
 
       10      A.    No.  At that point, she hadn't taught like she
 
       11  initially planned.  And, again, it was more we decided
 
       12  that we were going to try to have a family and we wanted
 
       13  to come to Billings.  She wanted to get back into
 
       14  teaching, if at all possible.  And we had talked about
 
       15  it, and it just made sense to come to Billings.
 
       16            The only thing that was certain when we came
 
       17  to Billings was that she was going to go to school, and
 
       18  we had saved up enough money to do that.  And then
 
       19  hopefully I was to find employment, and I didn't think
 
       20  it would be too hard.  And that's when I started working
 
       21  for WCS.
 
       22      Q.    WCS?
 
       23      A.    Telecom.
 
       24      Q.    Oh, Telecom.  That's right.
 
       25      A.    Yeah.

 

 
                                                              37

 
        1      Q.    And initially you lived with your mom.
 
        2      A.    My mother.
 
        3      Q.    And then you went to an apartment for a while?
 
        4      A.    Yeah.
 
        5      Q.    And then you bought the house.
 
        6      A.    Correct, yes.
 
        7      Q.    And was Deb pregnant at the time you bought
 
        8  the house then?
 
        9      A.    Yeah.  We signed the papers.  Actually, Alyssa
 
       10  was maybe __ we bought the house in May because Alyssa
 
       11  was maybe like four days old when we signed the papers.
 
       12  And __
 
       13      Q.    So she had been born then.
 
       14      A.    Yeah.
 
       15      Q.    Her birth date?
 
       16      A.    May 11th.
 
       17      Q.    Want to take a break?
 
       18      A.    No.  I'm fine.
 
       19      Q.    That would have been '97.  Right?
 
       20      A.    Yeah.
 
       21      Q.    Is that right or is it '98?
 
       22      A.    I'm sorry.
 
       23                  MR. VICKERY:  '7, you're right.
 
       24                  MR. PREUSS:  Why don't we take a
 
       25  minute.

 

 
                                                              38

 
        1                  THE DEPONENT:  I'm sorry.
 
        2                  MR. PREUSS:  That's okay.
 
        3                  (Deposition proceedings recessed 9:54
 
        4                  a.m. to 9:56 a.m.)
 
        5      Q.    (BY MR. PREUSS)  You indicated that when you
 
        6  moved from Denver to Billings, that Deb wanted to go to
 
        7  school.  That was one thing that was __
 
        8      A.    Yeah.
 
        9      Q.    What further schooling did she want to do?
 
       10      A.    She wanted to become a special education
 
       11  teacher.
 
       12      Q.    In what area?
 
       13      A.    She wanted to get her own special ed. class,
 
       14  but I think what she did is she got the __ I'm not quite
 
       15  sure how the requirements were to become a special ed.
 
       16  teacher.  She got enough of the master's requirements so
 
       17  that they would at least hire her.  And so she worked
 
       18  for the Catholic school system as a resource room
 
       19  teacher, and so she didn't necessarily have full_time
 
       20  students that were special ed. needs.  They were sent to
 
       21  her, what they called inclusion, where the special ed.
 
       22  students are part of a normal classroom.  And then for
 
       23  periods during the day, Deb would take them for, I
 
       24  guess, a __ I think like an hour or two.  It was a
 
       25  part_time job, but she actually loved it.

 

 
                                                              39

 
        1      Q.    But she got her master's, though.  Right?
 
        2      A.    She didn't complete it.  And I'm not sure how
 
        3  the __ she had enough requirements to actually get hired
 
        4  as a resource room teacher but she didn't complete the
 
        5  master's.  And her goal was just to do that slowly and
 
        6  then finish that requirement.  And I think in the state
 
        7  of Montana, they will hire you if you have a certain
 
        8  amount of __ you know, actually, I don't know.  But she
 
        9  had enough to get hired with the school system, the
 
       10  Catholic school system.
 
       11      Q.    The Catholic school system?
 
       12      A.    Yeah.  But she didn't have a master's.
 
       13      Q.    Was the schooling at Rocky Mountain?
 
       14      A.    No.  She went to __ at that time it was called
 
       15  Montana State University, Billings Campus, so MSUB was
 
       16  what it was referred to.
 
       17      Q.    And was that full time?
 
       18      A.    Yes.
 
       19      Q.    So how long did she go full time to get the
 
       20  credits that she earned?
 
       21      A.    She went about __ she went __ there was a
 
       22  summer semester in there.  And so I think she went for
 
       23  two semesters.  And she took a lot of __ she took a lot
 
       24  of courses.  So she took more than was normal, I guess,
 
       25  for that.  And that got her to where she had the minimum

 

 
                                                              40

 
        1  requirements to work in the school systems.  And it was
 
        2  both private and public, I believe.  I never quite
 
        3  understood how the teaching certification worked for
 
        4  that.
 
        5      Q.    And did she continue to do part_time special
 
        6  ed. education teaching after the birth of your daughter?
 
        7      A.    No.  It was kind of a __ I had started for the
 
        8  first time in my life making decent money and I enjoyed
 
        9  what I did.  And we both just thought it would be best
 
       10  if one of us stayed home with Alyssa, at least for her
 
       11  formative years, you know, through her __ you know,
 
       12  before she went to school.  We had planned to have
 
       13  another child.  And it was one of those decisions just
 
       14  like my flying.  We were both happy with it.  She was
 
       15  happy with it.  And she just felt like she at that point
 
       16  had proved she could at least teach.  She was very good
 
       17  at it.  They loved her at the school.
 
       18            So, she decided that she __ mainly it was her
 
       19  decision.  I said whatever she wanted to do was fine and
 
       20  I supported either way.  It she wanted to stay at home,
 
       21  that was great with me.  It was still just a part_time
 
       22  situation, but she made $7,000 that one __ it was like
 
       23  $7,000 each year.  And I think we figured with the day
 
       24  care, that it just didn't make sense to have Alyssa with
 
       25  somebody else.

 

 
                                                              41

 
        1      Q.    So after she was born, then, Deb spent her
 
        2  time taking care of Alyssa.
 
        3      A.    Yes.
 
        4      Q.    And you worked.
 
        5      A.    Yes.  She had finished out her semester.  And
 
        6  I'm sorry.  I don't remember when that was.  But she had
 
        7  finished.  You know, she informed them and they were
 
        8  happy for her.  She had a little time before Alyssa was
 
        9  born to kind of get ready for it and move.
 
       10      Q.    And did Deb have any health problems at all?
 
       11      A.    She had __ they called it dysplasia on her
 
       12  cervix.  And we were even wondering if she was going to
 
       13  be able to have children.
 
       14      Q.    She had some cryosurgery?
 
       15      A.    Cryosurgery.  And then it would pop back up at
 
       16  one point, and they had told her at that point __ and
 
       17  I'm jumping back on you.  I don't know what year this
 
       18  was.  But they said, you know, if it came up __ it was
 
       19  like the second occurrence within a certain time frame.
 
       20  And they were concerned about it coming back.  And it
 
       21  never did, so __ but there was still that concern over,
 
       22  you know, they had done the cryosurgery, and her doctor
 
       23  was a little concerned about her carrying a baby to
 
       24  term.
 
       25      Q.    Do you remember when that cryosurgery was?

 

 
                                                              42

 
        1      A.    She had it in '90.
 
        2      Q.    So before you got married then.
 
        3      A.    Right.  And then she had it again after she
 
        4  graduated.  I mean, approximately '92.  And then it
 
        5  never did come back.  But there was still that concern
 
        6  over her cervix being able to __
 
        7      Q.    Hold the baby to term?
 
        8      A.    Right.
 
        9      Q.    Did you have any trouble getting pregnant?
 
       10      A.    No.  She got pregnant, I think it was, the
 
       11  second month after we tried.  And they said it was kind
 
       12  of a miracle because her cervix had closed so tight, and
 
       13  we didn't realize that until __ they didn't do too much
 
       14  exams while she was pregnant because they were worried
 
       15  about her cervix becoming __ disturbing her cervix.  And
 
       16  when Alyssa was born, she was late because Deb's cervix
 
       17  was so tight that she wouldn't let Alyssa through.  So
 
       18  we had all this worry over nothing.  She actually could
 
       19  have probably had a 20_pound baby.
 
       20      Q.    So she certainly carried to full term.
 
       21      A.    She carried full term.
 
       22      Q.    And I think you indicated earlier that the two
 
       23  of you were planning to have a second child?
 
       24      A.    Yeah.
 
       25      Q.    Had you started to try to have a second child

 

 
                                                              43

 
        1  at the time that you lost her?
 
        2      A.    Yeah.
 
        3      Q.    As far as you knew, she was not pregnant,
 
        4  though.  Is that right?
 
        5      A.    Yeah.  I take that back.  I was worried that
 
        6  she might be, but she had had me bring down __ the night
 
        7  before I lost them, she asked me to bring down some
 
        8  feminine products.  So she felt like it was coming
 
        9  along, but I don't think she had had her period yet.
 
       10      Q.    Any other health problems that Deb had?
 
       11      A.    Other than she would faint periodically.  She
 
       12  had very low blood pressure.  And she had a surgery on
 
       13  her thumb.  She broke her thumb in school.  And she
 
       14  fainted then, and they said it was nothing to worry
 
       15  about.  And then she had fainted in Denver at one time.
 
       16  It was hot in a restaurant.  We were standing up and we
 
       17  had a drink with some friends, and she just __ she was
 
       18  exhausted and she just fainted.  We took her to the
 
       19  hospital.  And they said it was nothing to worry about.
 
       20      Q.    She didn't have any medication for it.
 
       21      A.    No.  She didn't take any medication other than
 
       22  for, like, say, sinus injections or __
 
       23      Q.    Did she ever take any sleeping medication?
 
       24      A.    No.
 
       25      Q.    Ever take any medication for anxiety?

 

 
                                                              44

 
        1      A.    No.
 
        2      Q.    Did she have any trouble sleeping?
 
        3      A.    No.
 
        4      Q.    So other than over_the_counter type
 
        5  medications or there may have been an antibiotic from
 
        6  time to time when she had a cold, she was taking no
 
        7  other medications regularly.  Is that correct?
 
        8      A.    That's correct, yes.
 
        9      Q.    Before today's deposition, did you review any
 
       10  written material at all?
 
       11      A.    Yeah.  I hadn't looked at any of the police
 
       12  reports or anything until earlier.  Andy and I thought
 
       13  it would be a good idea just to jog my memory.  It was a
 
       14  good thing just to __ I hadn't done it.
 
       15      Q.    So you read the Gillette police reports?
 
       16      A.    Yeah.
 
       17      Q.    Anything else?
 
       18      A.    No.
 
       19                  MR. PREUSS:  Andy, you can jump in, if
 
       20  you want.  In the notice, there were a number of things
 
       21  that we requested you to bring along.  I don't know
 
       22  whether you had opportunity to look at the deposition
 
       23  notice or not.
 
       24                  MR. VICKERY:  We didn't.
 
       25                  MR. PREUSS:  Let me finish.

 

 
                                                              45

 
        1                  MR. VICKERY:  Oh.  Okay.  Sorry.
 
        2                  MR. PREUSS:  And my question really is
 
        3  whether or not there is any material requested that
 
        4  hasn't already been produced.
 
        5                  MR. VICKERY:  The best that I know,
 
        6  there is none.  If it turns out that you asked about
 
        7  something and there is something in that category, we'll
 
        8  certainly produce it.  But to my knowledge, there is
 
        9  none.  I mean, everything that he has, that he's shared
 
       10  with me, we have produced to you.
 
       11      Q.    (BY MR. PREUSS)  Okay.  Let me just read what
 
       12  the subject matters are in case this triggers any memory
 
       13  you have as to whether you may have things that you
 
       14  haven't given to him or, for one reason or another, it
 
       15  hasn't been brought to our attention.
 
       16            So, one, medical records, and those would be
 
       17  medical records relating to Donald Schell, just a
 
       18  general category of records, correspondence, checks,
 
       19  receipts, memoranda, records of telephone or other
 
       20  conversations and communications, witness statements or
 
       21  records or memoranda related to the knowledge of you,
 
       22  Mr. Tobin, about the subject of this action,
 
       23  instruments, information, photographs or other things of
 
       24  every sort related to the subject matter of this.
 
       25            Anything that comes to mind that you may have

 

 
                                                              46

 
        1  that you haven't turned over to your attorney?
 
        2      A.    No.
 
        3                  MR. VICKERY:  Chuck, the only thing from
 
        4  that list that you mentioned, I have not asked Tim to
 
        5  pull together an exhaustive list of photos of his family
 
        6  before.  And so that may be something that we should ask
 
        7  him to do, if you want to see them.  I can imagine __
 
        8                  MR. PREUSS:  Well, I think what I would
 
        9  like would be, if there is anything that you plan to use
 
       10  in connection with the trial relative to his family,
 
       11  then, obviously, we would like to have the opportunity
 
       12  to see those before they are presented.
 
       13                  MR. VICKERY:  Okay.  What I'll do is,
 
       14  after this is over, just ask Tim to provide me with a
 
       15  representative sample of family photographs, wedding
 
       16  pictures and pictures of the baby and whatever.  And
 
       17  we'll make a selection of what we would use at trial and
 
       18  make a copy of that for you.
 
       19      Q.    (BY MR. PREUSS)  Who was Deb's primary
 
       20  treating doctor or family doc at the time of her death?
 
       21      A.    Dr. Randak was her __
 
       22      Q.    R?
 
       23      A.    R_a_n_d_a_k.
 
       24      Q.    His first name?
 
       25      A.    I just know him as Dr. Randak.  I believe it's

 

 
                                                              47

 
        1  Mark.
 
        2      Q.    Is he an internist?
 
        3      A.    He's an OB/GYN.
 
        4      Q.    Any other doctor that she was seeing on a
 
        5  regular or periodic basis __
 
        6      A.    No.
 
        7      Q.    __ in 1998?
 
        8      A.    No.
 
        9      Q.    Did you use a pharmacy for any medications
 
       10  that you might need as a family in 1998?
 
       11      A.    If we did, it was probably Wal_Mart.
 
       12      Q.    In Billings?
 
       13      A.    Yes.
 
       14      Q.    Where in Billings?
 
       15      A.    Just a general area or __
 
       16      Q.    When you went to Wal_Mart, where would you go?
 
       17      A.    It's out on __ it's a stand_alone.  It's out
 
       18  on King Avenue West, I believe.  I don't know the
 
       19  address.
 
       20      Q.    That's fine.  Was she breast_feeding Alyssa at
 
       21  the time of their death?
 
       22      A.    She tried, but her __ she couldn't supply
 
       23  enough breast milk.  And so she tried for three weeks.
 
       24  There was enough to sustain Alyssa, and she was growing
 
       25  fine and she wasn't losing weight but she wasn't really

 

 
                                                              48

 
        1  putting on weight like she needed to.  So we went to
 
        2  bottle feeding.
 
        3      Q.    So at the time of their deaths, Alyssa was on
 
        4  bottle and not breast milk?  Is that right?
 
        5      A.    That's correct.
 
        6      Q.    Had Deborah ever been diagnosed with
 
        7  depression before?
 
        8      A.    No.
 
        9      Q.    Anxiety?
 
       10      A.    No.
 
       11      Q.    Obsessive_compulsive disorder?
 
       12      A.    No.
 
       13      Q.    Any personality disorder or other mental
 
       14  illness?
 
       15      A.    No.
 
       16      Q.    And I think you indicated that she had no
 
       17  problems sleeping.  Is that right?
 
       18      A.    Yeah.  She never __ other than when Alyssa
 
       19  came along.  We both had problems.
 
       20      Q.    Your only marriage has been to Deb.  Right?
 
       21      A.    That's correct.
 
       22      Q.    And her only marriage has been to you.
 
       23      A.    Yes.
 
       24      Q.    And Alyssa is the only child of either of
 
       25  you.  Is that correct?

 

 
                                                              49

 
        1      A.    Yes.
 
        2      Q.    Have you ever been convicted of a felony, sir?
 
        3      A.    No.
 
        4      Q.    When did you first meet Don Schell?
 
        5      A.    It was a few weeks after I started dating Deb,
 
        6  actually.
 
        7      Q.    What were the circumstances of your meeting
 
        8  him, Mr. Schell?
 
        9      A.    They had come up to visit Deb at school.  And
 
       10  Deb and I had really pretty much fallen in love really
 
       11  quick, and she wanted me to meet her parents as soon as
 
       12  possible.  So we didn't have lunch or anything.  We
 
       13  just __ I believe I just __ Don and Rita wanted to get
 
       14  something at the mall.  I think we all went out and just
 
       15  kind of walked around.  So it was kind of a nice first
 
       16  meeting.
 
       17      Q.    So you were at least part of the reason that
 
       18  they came down to see Deb?
 
       19      A.    I think so, yeah.
 
       20      Q.    Get the once_over?
 
       21      A.    Yeah.
 
       22      Q.    And after that first meeting and up to the
 
       23  time that you started living in the Schell house here in
 
       24  Gillette, how many times, roughly, did you see the
 
       25  parents?

 

 
                                                              50

 
        1      A.    Oh, boy.  Like a yearly basis or just __
 
        2      Q.    However you want to do it.  I mean, did you
 
        3  see them once a week, once a month, once every six
 
        4  months?
 
        5      A.    I would say it averaged out to maybe like once
 
        6  a month, maybe, give or take a few.  You know, there was
 
        7  times we would be busy and not for three months and
 
        8  then, say, in the summer we would come down for, you
 
        9  know, maybe two weekends in a row.  So I would say once
 
       10  a month.
 
       11      Q.    On those monthly visits, were those mainly you
 
       12  coming here to Gillette or vice versa or were they
 
       13  balanced in some way?
 
       14      A.    When Deb __ I'll just take you through the __
 
       15  pretty much the only time that I came down to visit Deb
 
       16  when we weren't together was when she came home for the
 
       17  summer after we first met.  And so I would come down
 
       18  every weekend, actually, in that period.  And after she
 
       19  came back up to Billings, her folks would either come up
 
       20  maybe every three months or so and we would come down
 
       21  every couple of months or every month.  But it was
 
       22  always Deb and I together.
 
       23            I think after that first summer, I don't __
 
       24  other than when she would come down after Alyssa was
 
       25  born, I don't remember the last time she just came down

 

 
                                                              51

 
        1  by herself.  In fact, I don't think she ever did.
 
        2      Q.    It was always as a family unit.
 
        3      A.    Yeah, I think so.
 
        4      Q.    Let me ask you some questions about Donald
 
        5  Schell.  Do you know his date of birth?
 
        6      A.    I don't.
 
        7      Q.    Do you know where he was born?
 
        8      A.    He was born in Rugby, North Dakota.
 
        9      Q.    Do you know what his educational background
 
       10  is?
 
       11      A.    He just finished high school.
 
       12      Q.    Do you know what his employment history
 
       13  consists of?
 
       14      A.    Yeah.  He worked for Occidental Petroleum for
 
       15  quite a few years, retired with Oxy and then became a
 
       16  pumper with __ I am trying to remember the name of the
 
       17  company.  I think it was Wellstar.  I'm sure it was
 
       18  Wellstar.  And then he did that up __ the remainder of
 
       19  his life.
 
       20      Q.    What does a pumper do?
 
       21      A.    He specifically would just go out every day,
 
       22  make sure that the oil wells were running, and if the
 
       23  oil got to a certain __ if there is any problems with
 
       24  the rig or the oil needed to be shipped out, the pumper
 
       25  handles all that, maintenance, preventive and

 

 
                                                              52

 
        1  otherwise.
 
        2      Q.    So if we're talking __ are we talking about
 
        3  one of these little rocker arm things?
 
        4      A.    That's correct, yeah.
 
        5      Q.    And he starts it or stops it?
 
        6      A.    No.  They are on a timer.  And pretty much
 
        7  what a pumper does is they just go out and make sure
 
        8  that, A, the oil is pumping on that particular time __
 
        9  they usually go on a sequence.  They pump for a while,
 
       10  turn off, pump for a while __ and log however many
 
       11  barrels of oil for that day or the prior day were
 
       12  pumped.
 
       13      Q.    Is he responsible for putting it into drums to
 
       14  ship?
 
       15      A.    No, no.  All he does is call a service to come
 
       16  out, and if it's not directly connected to a pipeline,
 
       17  for a service to come out and pick up the oil.
 
       18      Q.    How is a pumper compensated?
 
       19      A.    It's usually on a daily rate.
 
       20      Q.    So many __
 
       21      A.    Don was on a daily rate.
 
       22      Q.    So what does that mean, he had so many pumps?
 
       23      A.    Well, I think traditionally __ I know this was
 
       24  for Don.  I think it's pretty much for all of them.
 
       25  They bid a certain __ like a company will have wells

 

 
                                                              53

 
        1  that they need a pumper on, and they will ask __ it's
 
        2  not a formal bid, but they will say, "How much a day do
 
        3  you need?"  And I don't know how much Don made.  But,
 
        4  say, for example, if they made $200 a day, whether it
 
        5  takes him an hour or ten hours, they still get paid
 
        6  200.  They are independent contractors.
 
        7      Q.    What did he do when he was in the service?
 
        8      A.    He was in Germany and he was just, I think, a
 
        9  basic infantryman.  But most of his time was spent in
 
       10  Germany or he did a stint in Germany.  That's all I
 
       11  remember him talking about.
 
       12            He spoke German, his family in Rugby.  I think
 
       13  it was high German.  And when he was in Germany, I just
 
       14  remember him, that was a lot of fun for him because he
 
       15  was very familiar with the language.  And so he seemed
 
       16  to enjoy it, from what I remember him recalling.
 
       17      Q.    Was he fluent in German?
 
       18      A.    He was __ he didn't speak English until he
 
       19  went to school.  His family up in North Dakota just
 
       20  spoke German at the house.
 
       21      Q.    Did he ever speak German around here?
 
       22      A.    He would say an odd comment, but just __ Deb
 
       23  took German in high school, and so they would practice
 
       24  with each other.  There is, I guess, a difference
 
       25  between high and low German.  This is going more into

 

 
                                                              54

 
        1  the specifics than you need.  They would speak it back
 
        2  and forth, but not __ you know, there was never really
 
        3  any German spoken when I was around, even when Deb was
 
        4  there.  She had forgotten most of it, I think.  Don was
 
        5  a smart guy.  I think he remembered most of his German.
 
        6      Q.    Do you know when he married Rita?
 
        7      A.    I don't.  It was the early '60s.  I know
 
        8  that.
 
        9      Q.    And her maiden name was what?
 
       10      A.    Reavis.
 
       11      Q.    R_e_a_v_i_s?
 
       12      A.    R_e_a_v_i_s, correct.
 
       13      Q.    Now, they had __ in addition to Deb, they had
 
       14  a son named Mike.  Is that correct?
 
       15      A.    That's correct.
 
       16      Q.    And did Deb have a twin?
 
       17      A.    No.
 
       18      Q.    Was there another son born to them?
 
       19      A.    Yeah.  They had a miscarriage, a late_term
 
       20  miscarriage, from what I understood.  And that was
 
       21  between Michael and Deb.  They had a hard time
 
       22  conceiving.  In fact, Rita had to stay __ she was __ I
 
       23  believe she stayed in bed for the last two term __ two
 
       24  trimesters, because they were afraid she was going to
 
       25  lose the baby.  And that's partially why we were so

 

 
                                                              55

 
        1  concerned about Alyssa.  And after Deb was born, they
 
        2  said she needed to have a hysterectomy and they couldn't
 
        3  have any more kids.
 
        4      Q.    The child that miscarried was subsequent to
 
        5  Deb's birth?
 
        6      A.    Prior.
 
        7      Q.    Prior.
 
        8      A.    Prior.
 
        9      Q.    So between Michael and Deb?
 
       10      A.    Right.  There was __ she had had miscarriages,
 
       11  but that one was __ I believe she even carried close to
 
       12  term.  And so the child was born.  From what I
 
       13  understood, it was very painful for them.  You know,
 
       14  they __ you know, they loved their family.  They were
 
       15  really good to their kids and me.  So it was hard for
 
       16  them.  Probably would be for me if I __ but it was
 
       17  between those.  There was a few miscarriages even
 
       18  between __ before that child was __ I don't want to say
 
       19  born because I think it was premature a little but not
 
       20  by much.
 
       21      Q.    So was it stillborn then?
 
       22      A.    It was alive for a while.  Rita seemed to be
 
       23  kind of uncomfortable talking about that, so I just
 
       24  never really __ again, I didn't feel it was appropriate
 
       25  for me.

 

 
                                                              56

 
        1      Q.    Were both Michael and Deb carried to term, as
 
        2  far as you know?
 
        3      A.    Yes.
 
        4      Q.    And then after Deb's birth, she had __ Rita
 
        5  had a hysterectomy?
 
        6      A.    A hysterectomy, yeah.
 
        7      Q.    When did you first meet Mike?
 
        8      A.    I don't really remember.  He was in __ he just
 
        9  moved to Denver, I believe, not long after Deb and I
 
       10  met.  And it was definitely within the first, you know,
 
       11  couple visits of us coming down, because he was still in
 
       12  Gillette before he moved to Denver.  So I met him.  I
 
       13  just don't remember the exact circumstance.
 
       14      Q.    Is he a high school graduate?
 
       15      A.    He __ yes.  He graduated from high school.
 
       16      Q.    What was his employment after high school?
 
       17      A.    He worked in the oil field and then slowly
 
       18  moved into doing electrician work.  And that's what he
 
       19  continued to do.
 
       20      Q.    Was he employed at the time of his parents'
 
       21  deaths?
 
       22      A.    I believe he just prior __ let's see.  I think
 
       23  two or three weeks prior, he left his job.
 
       24      Q.    Was he fired?
 
       25      A.    I don't know.  I think he __ I can't remember

 

 
                                                              57

 
        1  if he just got tired of working there or if they fired
 
        2  him.  Mike keeps to himself.  So I wasn't quite sure.
 
        3      Q.    Mike ever been married?
 
        4      A.    Not __ no.
 
        5      Q.    Mike ever have any problems with drugs?
 
        6      A.    Yes, he did.
 
        7      Q.    What's the nature of those problems?
 
        8      A.    I don't know directly but just from Deb.  Deb
 
        9  seemed to think that when he was in his teens, he got
 
       10  involved with the wrong crowd, I think a lot of people
 
       11  in Gillette at that time, and I think it probably
 
       12  carried through into his adult life.  And I had never
 
       13  seen him __ I had seen him drink quite heavily, but I
 
       14  don't know.  I honestly don't know.  I assume he was,
 
       15  though.
 
       16      Q.    You say you have seen him drink heavily?
 
       17      A.    Yeah, I have seen him a few times, you know.
 
       18      Q.    In and around the house?
 
       19      A.    No.  You know, he never really __ he preferred
 
       20  to go out, and then, you know, he would come home and it
 
       21  was obvious that he had been drinking.  But he usually
 
       22  would just go to bed, so __
 
       23      Q.    Is that when he was visiting then?
 
       24      A.    Yeah.  It was pretty rare over the years,
 
       25  later years that we would really be there except for

 

 
                                                              58

 
        1  holidays together and if it was a Christmas that we were
 
        2  spending with Don and Rita, not with my folks.  We
 
        3  alternated.  We tried to alternate years.  So it wasn't
 
        4  really very often he was home.
 
        5      Q.    All right.  How were Mike's relationships with
 
        6  his dad?
 
        7      A.    They were hard at times, I think.  They seemed
 
        8  like they would battle like fathers and sons do, you
 
        9  know.  I shouldn't say battle.  Just kind of __
 
       10      Q.    Disagree?
 
       11      A.    Disagree.  Mike's maturity I think at times
 
       12  wasn't really good.  He would take things kind of
 
       13  personally that I wouldn't necessarily that Don would
 
       14  say.  I would say it was more that Don was concerned
 
       15  about Mike kind of getting his act together.  And so was
 
       16  Rita.  And, for that matter, so was Deb and I.  We just
 
       17  wanted to see him be happy, you know, and reach some
 
       18  stability like we had, I guess, in a way.
 
       19      Q.    How often in the last year would Mike __ when
 
       20  Mike's parents were alive did Mike see them or vice
 
       21  versa?
 
       22      A.    I don't think any.
 
       23      Q.    How often did they speak by phone, if at all,
 
       24  in that last year, to your knowledge?
 
       25      A.    You know, I __ you know, they never really

 

 
                                                              59

 
        1  talked to Deb about that.  I know that __ I think Mike
 
        2  tried to check in with them every couple weeks, but I
 
        3  don't know for sure.
 
        4      Q.    How often in the last year did you and Deb see
 
        5  Mike?
 
        6      A.    We didn't see him at all, I don't think, in
 
        7  that last year.  If we did, I just don't __ I don't
 
        8  remember.
 
        9      Q.    When is the last time before the death of Don
 
       10  and Rita did you see Mike?
 
       11      A.    I'm getting my years screwed up, so you have
 
       12  got to help me.
 
       13      Q.    Okay.  1998.
 
       14      A.    Not the Christmas that __ after, you know,
 
       15  Christmas, and then everybody __ not that Christmas but
 
       16  the Christmas prior.  So __
 
       17      Q.    The immediate __ okay.
 
       18      A.    So it was __ I guess, actually, it would have
 
       19  been about a year that we saw him, from that __
 
       20                  MR. VICKERY:  Christmas '96?
 
       21                  THE DEPONENT:  Yeah.
 
       22                  MR. VICKERY:  They died in February
 
       23  '98.
 
       24                  THE DEPONENT:  Yeah.
 
       25                  MR. VICKERY:  So 14 months before?

 

 
                                                              60

 
        1                  THE DEPONENT:  Yeah.
 
        2      Q.    (BY MR. PREUSS)  Was Mike up then __
 
        3      A.    Uh_huh.
 
        4      Q.    __ to Gillette for that Christmas in '96?
 
        5      A.    Yeah.
 
        6      Q.    But he wasn't there in '97.
 
        7      A.    Actually, I think he might have been, the more
 
        8  I think about it.  I don't know if he stayed __ we __
 
        9      Q.    You were at the parents' in that __ '98?
 
       10      A.    Yeah.  And we had flown down to Texas.  And I
 
       11  don't know __ you know, it's __ I don't remember if he
 
       12  went up or not.  I think he did.  I'm pretty sure he
 
       13  did.
 
       14      Q.    The last time you remember seeing Mike prior
 
       15  to Don and Rita's deaths was Christmas of '96.
 
       16      A.    Yes.
 
       17      Q.    Had Mike gotten in any problems with the law,
 
       18  to your knowledge?
 
       19      A.    I think he had a DUI at some point, but I
 
       20  don't know if it was a DUI or just a ticket that he
 
       21  didn't take care of.  I don't remember.  That was quite
 
       22  a few years ago, though.  That would have been '91 or
 
       23  '92.  That's speculation.  I shouldn't even guess,
 
       24  actually.  I don't know when it was.  I know that he had
 
       25  had a ticket or a DUI.

 

 
                                                              61

 
        1      Q.    What were Mike's hobbies?
 
        2      A.    He liked to fish.
 
        3      Q.    Did you ever go fishing with him?
 
        4      A.    No.  We never did.
 
        5      Q.    Anything besides fishing?
 
        6      A.    He played billiards, played pool.  I don't
 
        7  know if he played league or not, but he talked about
 
        8  going to play pool.  Other than that, I don't know.
 
        9      Q.    Did Deb call him on the phone from time to
 
       10  time?
 
       11      A.    No.  He was hard to get ahold of.  He didn't
 
       12  have a phone.  So really the only time that we would
 
       13  talk to him was when we were in Gillette and by chance
 
       14  he would call.
 
       15            Mike and Deb weren't exceptionally close.
 
       16  And, you know, Deb was such a straightlaced person, it
 
       17  was hard for her to __ actually, it was hard for both of
 
       18  us sometimes.  He just didn't seem to get his act
 
       19  together.  He was just kind of a lost soul, in a way,
 
       20  you know, just drinking a lot.  He just kept to
 
       21  himself.  He was almost painfully shy, you know.
 
       22            So we really kind of __ there wasn't that
 
       23  closeness, like, say, me and my brother are
 
       24  exceptionally close.  And I would say that my brother
 
       25  and Deb were closer than Mike and her just because of

 

 
                                                              62

 
        1  the time involved, and Mike never seemed to want to make
 
        2  an effort to kind of spend time other than coming up to
 
        3  spend time for Christmas, and Gerald's funeral he came
 
        4  up.  But other than that, there wasn't enough time
 
        5  really to get close.  And I never really got close to
 
        6  Mike.  And Deb __ our life moved on, and she never
 
        7  really __ he left the house after high school and he was
 
        8  five years older than her.  So there wasn't __ they
 
        9  weren't that close.  She cared about him, but it was
 
       10  just __ just wasn't a close relationship.
 
       11      Q.    Would the same be true with respect to Mike
 
       12  and Don and Rita?
 
       13      A.    I think so.  I would say he was distant with
 
       14  them, too.
 
       15      Q.    Did Don and Rita ever express their
 
       16  frustration, concern about their relationship with Mike?
 
       17      A.    Not their relationship, but very rarely would
 
       18  Don and Rita talk about it.  They tried to always say,
 
       19  "Well, Mike is doing better now," you know, and, "Mike
 
       20  is working."
 
       21            Actually, Mike had the same job for quite a
 
       22  while.  But Mike just never seemed to get ahead of the
 
       23  game, I guess.  It always seemed like, you know __ I
 
       24  don't know how to describe it.  But very rarely __ I
 
       25  think once a couple years ago, Don had said something to

 

 
                                                              63

 
        1  me, and I don't remember the circumstance, but Mike
 
        2  had __ I don't even know what the circumstance was.  And
 
        3  Don was just frustrated.  He said, "I just want him" __
 
        4  he goes, "I understand Mike is not, you know, perfect
 
        5  but I just want him to be, you know, just take care of
 
        6  himself."  And I think it was more the concern of a
 
        7  father, you know, for his son.  You know, all of the
 
        8  father_son relationships in my family, maybe to a lesser
 
        9  extent, they just want you to be okay, not worry about
 
       10  you.  And with Mike, it always seemed like he worried
 
       11  about him I guess is the best way to __ you just felt
 
       12  like __ you just kept rooting for him, you know.
 
       13      Q.    Did Don have some brothers and sisters?
 
       14      A.    Yeah.  He had __ came from a large family.  He
 
       15  had an older brother.  Actually, he was the youngest
 
       16  boy, Don was.  There was __ I believe there was three
 
       17  brothers and one sister.  One of them lived here in
 
       18  Gillette.  He wasn't particularly close to him.  And I
 
       19  don't remember his name.  He died quite a while back of
 
       20  a heart attack.  I think his name was Leonard.  And then
 
       21  he had another brother that was __ I take that back __
 
       22  was younger.  Don was __ I'm sorry.  The other brother
 
       23  was younger and died.  He had leukemia.  He died also.
 
       24  We went up a couple summers before he passed away and I
 
       25  got to meet part of the family for the first time.  We

 

 
                                                              64

 
        1  never had much to do with them.  I don't remember.  I
 
        2  probably will remember his name here in a little bit.
 
        3  And the sister lives down in Phoenix.  Her name is
 
        4  Doris.  She's a very sweet lady.  She's a __ Deb and I
 
        5  when we were down for Christmas had lunch with her and
 
        6  her husband.  They are just real nice people.  Actually,
 
        7  the ones that I met were all nice.  His younger brother
 
        8  that died was very nice, a very nice family.
 
        9      Q.    The one that had leukemia?
 
       10      A.    Yeah.
 
       11      Q.    What was his name?
 
       12      A.    It will probably come to me here in a little
 
       13  bit.
 
       14      Q.    When did he die?
 
       15      A.    I think it was a year before everything
 
       16  happened.
 
       17      Q.    And was the death of that brother upsetting to
 
       18  Don?
 
       19      A.    Yeah.  It was hard for him.  It was sad.  They
 
       20  thought he was kind of whipping it and he just lost the
 
       21  battle, I guess.  He was the baby of the family, the
 
       22  brother that died.  It was hard on them all.
 
       23      Q.    The mother's name was what?
 
       24      A.    Oh.  Don's mother?  I don't remember right
 
       25  now.

 

 
                                                              65

 
        1      Q.    Where did she live?
 
        2      A.    She lived up in Rugby.  She passed away when
 
        3  he was quite young.  In fact __
 
        4      Q.    I'm sorry.  I interrupted you.
 
        5      A.    Oh.  Sure.
 
        6      Q.    But I thought you said that it was hard on the
 
        7  mom.
 
        8      A.    Oh.  Hard on them all.  I'm sorry.  I'm not
 
        9  being clear.
 
       10                  MR. VICKERY:  I thought you said the
 
       11  mom, too.
 
       12                  THE DEPONENT:  I'm sorry.  I'll try to
 
       13  speak clearer.
 
       14      Q.    (BY MR. PREUSS)  Were you at the funeral?
 
       15      A.    No.  It may have been less than a year,
 
       16  because we had talked to Don __ I had talked to Don, and
 
       17  I just didn't want Deb upset.  And I had talked to Don.
 
       18  Don and I were pretty close, actually.  And we talked
 
       19  for a quite a while.  And we decided it would be best if
 
       20  Deb didn't get upset.  I was worried about __
 
       21      Q.    She was pregnant.
 
       22      A.    __ we were all worried at that time.  I mean,
 
       23  and we didn't want her to __ we just didn't want her to
 
       24  be stressed.  So we all agreed it was best if she
 
       25  just __ we just stayed home, you know.  That was

 

 
                                                              66

 
        1  probably less than a year, actually.
 
        2      Q.    Did his father_in_law die within a year?
 
        3      A.    Yeah.  Gerald passed away __
 
        4      Q.    That would be __ is it Flo?
 
        5      A.    Yeah, Flo.  I call her Mimi.  I was confusing
 
        6  Andy earlier.  Flo, but Deb called her Mimi, and that's
 
        7  what I called her, too.  I'll try to call her Flo if you
 
        8  ask about her.
 
        9      Q.    And Flo's husband died within a year of Don's
 
       10  death?
 
       11      A.    Yeah.
 
       12      Q.    Was that hard?
 
       13      A.    That was more recent than his brother,
 
       14  actually.  Yeah.  That was __ that was another sad one.
 
       15  You know, he had heart surgery up in Billing and was
 
       16  doing so well, and he had a massive heart attack and it
 
       17  just killed him instantly.
 
       18      Q.    Was that hard on Don?
 
       19      A.    It was.
 
       20      Q.    Did you go to that funeral?
 
       21      A.    Yeah.  We all did.
 
       22      Q.    Did Don cry at that funeral?
 
       23      A.    Yeah, he did.  He was pretty upset.
 
       24      Q.    Was that something you had seen before in Don?
 
       25      A.    I had seen it rarely.  I think I was __ you

 

 
                                                              67

 
        1  know, I was one of the few, I think, that had seen Don
 
        2  really show emotion that way.  Rita had, Deb had and I
 
        3  had.  But it really bothered me.  They were all very __
 
        4  you know, we were all very close.  I know it sounds so
 
        5  small_townish, but we really were all very close.
 
        6      Q.    Did Rita also lose a brother within a year
 
        7  of __
 
        8      A.    No.  David died down in Texas probably ten
 
        9  years, twelve years ago now.  He was killed in an
 
       10  automobile accident.
 
       11      Q.    That was about ten years before?
 
       12      A.    Yeah, you know, give or __ maybe I shouldn't
 
       13  even throw dates out.  It was probably around ten years,
 
       14  just so long as you know __
 
       15      Q.    No.  It's approximately.  Approximately ten
 
       16  years ago.
 
       17      A.    Yeah.
 
       18      Q.    Did David have a close relationship with Mike?
 
       19      A.    You know, David and him were close.  He was
 
       20  also close to Peg and Al.  Peg is Rita's sister and Al
 
       21  is her husband.  And they had tried over the years __
 
       22  actually, I think how he got involved in being an
 
       23  electrician was through Al, who was an electrician.  And
 
       24  they kind of had steered him down that path, and it
 
       25  worked good for him.

 

 
                                                              68

 
        1      Q.    What's Peg and Al's last names?
 
        2      A.    Deans, D_e_a_n_s.
 
        3      Q.    And they live in Gillette?
 
        4      A.    Artesia, New Mexico.  But they did live in
 
        5  Gillette for quite a few years.  When Mike was here,
 
        6  they were here for most of that, too, I think.  I don't
 
        7  know when they moved down it Artesia.  But by the time I
 
        8  had met Deb, they were already down there.
 
        9      Q.    And are Peg and Al still alive?
 
       10      A.    Yes, they are.
 
       11      Q.    What did Don like to do for hobbies?
 
       12      A.    Well, Don actually read quite a bit.
 
       13      Q.    What kinds of things did he read?
 
       14      A.    Oh, he was kind of like I was.  Just kind
 
       15  of __ he really liked Louis L'amour.  He liked westerns,
 
       16  but not really a specific type, I guess.  But he loved
 
       17  doing his yard.
 
       18      Q.    Gardening?
 
       19      A.    Yeah.  And he would go fishing periodically.
 
       20  I think he just got tired of going fishing, so he __ he
 
       21  wasn't the fishing retirement type.  He wanted to work.
 
       22  So Don kept himself fairly busy with work still, even
 
       23  though he was retired, and a pumper, he still kept
 
       24  pretty busy with that.
 
       25      Q.    What were his hours?

 

 
                                                              69

 
        1      A.    He would go out really early.  I think he went
 
        2  out like at six.  And depending on the day and what
 
        3  needed to be done, if there was bookwork, well logs,
 
        4  bookwork, he wouldn't make it in until one sometimes.
 
        5  But usually __ he was so good at his job, it didn't take
 
        6  him hardly any time at all.  And he did a good job, from
 
        7  what I heard from other people.
 
        8      Q.    And then what did he do in the afternoons when
 
        9  he got back?
 
       10      A.    Just piddle around the house.  And their kind
 
       11  of outing was they would go to Deadwood, which is, I
 
       12  guess, an hour and a half from here.  It's a little
 
       13  gambling town.  And they would go over and get a chance
 
       14  to sneak away.  Rita loved to gamble and he liked to go
 
       15  over with her.  And actually, had a pretty simple life.
 
       16      Q.    When we talk about a little gambling, are we
 
       17  talking about playing a little blackjack or what are we
 
       18  talking about?
 
       19      A.    I think Rita __ oh, yeah, Don would play
 
       20  blackjack or the slot machines and Rita would strictly
 
       21  play the slot machines.  I don't think they would go
 
       22  over with that much money, maybe a hundred bucks or two
 
       23  hundred bucks maybe.  It wasn't like a __ it was more
 
       24  just for the fun of going over and it was more for
 
       25  Rita.  Don would always __ we would go over with them

 

 
                                                              70

 
        1  periodically and Don and I would sit there and we would
 
        2  kind of laugh because the girls really loved it.  And I
 
        3  don't particularly like to gamble and Don wasn't really
 
        4  big on it.  He just liked it because Rita enjoyed it so
 
        5  much.  And it was kind of fun to watch them because they
 
        6  were __ I don't know.  They just __ you know, I'm sure
 
        7  that your wives, you want to make sure that they are
 
        8  happy, so __
 
        9      Q.    It helps.
 
       10      A.    It helps.
 
       11      Q.    Was Don a hunter?
 
       12      A.    He used to hunt earlier.  I remember they used
 
       13  to hunt for rabbit when they were first married.  They
 
       14  were very poor.  Don always worked and was always
 
       15  responsible.  But, you know, with a high school
 
       16  education in the oil field, he had to work his way up
 
       17  before he started making decent money.  And he used to
 
       18  hunt for meat that they would eat.  It wasn't just
 
       19  pleasure hunting.  He was strictly a hunter for the
 
       20  meat.  I mean, they ate rabbits for a while.  I can't
 
       21  remember if they ate their rabbits or if they sold
 
       22  them.  I think there was something for a while if you
 
       23  brought in a rabbit, you got a dollar or something like
 
       24  that.
 
       25      Q.    How many guns did he have around the house?

 

 
                                                              71

 
        1      A.    I was just aware of three, I think.
 
        2      Q.    What were they?
 
        3      A.    I'm assuming.  I'm not into guns.  I don't
 
        4  even know.
 
        5      Q.    Were they rifles or pistols?
 
        6      A.    Pistols and a rifle, I think.
 
        7      Q.    Two pistols and one rifle?
 
        8      A.    I think so.  I had never seen them, so I
 
        9  wasn't sure if he had a bunch or not.  But I think __
 
       10      Q.    You had never seen them at all?
 
       11      A.    No.  I think __ actually, I saw them one time
 
       12  when __ I believe he gave Mike or he was giving Gerald
 
       13  one or vice versa or he was holding one for Mike, just a
 
       14  hunting rifle.  And I saw them then.  But I just never
 
       15  really enjoyed guns.
 
       16      Q.    Do you know whether or not his guns were the
 
       17  guns that were involved in the deaths of your family?
 
       18      A.    I would assume so.
 
       19      Q.    You don't know one way or the other?
 
       20      A.    Well, I would have to say yes, I guess.
 
       21      Q.    Were you aware that Don and Rita had a little
 
       22  note pad that indicated instructions to whomever __
 
       23      A.    Yeah.
 
       24      Q.    __ were responsible for their __
 
       25      A.    They went over that.  After Gerald died, there

 

 
                                                              72

 
        1  was a lot of questions about what __ who __ what needed
 
        2  to be done.  And they sat us down one time.  We came
 
        3  down.  Said, "Look, we're going to put all of our
 
        4  information down, who we want to carry our casket," just
 
        5  kind of important information that they felt was
 
        6  relevant.  And they told us where it was at if something
 
        7  happened to them.  They wanted us to know where their
 
        8  wills were at.  And so they __ yeah, we were aware of
 
        9  that.
 
       10      Q.    You mentioned Gerald's death.
 
       11      A.    Yeah.
 
       12      Q.    Refresh me again as to who Gerald is.
 
       13      A.    That's Deb's grandfather or Rita's father.
 
       14      Q.    Flo's __
 
       15      A.    Flo's husband.
 
       16      Q.    __ husband?
 
       17      A.    Yeah.  She's also referred to as Mimi in
 
       18  case __
 
       19      Q.    That's your name.  Right?
 
       20      A.    Yeah.  A lot of the kids refer to her as
 
       21  Mimi.
 
       22      Q.    Do you know __ had you actually seen the
 
       23  notebook before their deaths?
 
       24      A.    He told us where he had it, but __ and then we
 
       25  just kind of laughed about stuff because they __ you

 

 
                                                              73

 
        1  know, he was telling me about that he just wanted things
 
        2  organized and that we should probably do the same thing,
 
        3  which is probably a good idea.  We never did it, but __
 
        4      Q.    Do you know whether the instructions here were
 
        5  carried out?  Instructions here, I mean the instructions
 
        6  in the note pad.
 
        7      A.    I believe they were, yeah.
 
        8      Q.    And who was responsible for carrying them out?
 
        9      A.    Neva.
 
       10      Q.    One of the things he indicated, that he wanted
 
       11  the Ruger to go to you and Deb.
 
       12                  MR. VICKERY:  The what?  The Ruger?
 
       13                  MR. PREUSS:  Ruger, R_u_g_e_r.
 
       14                  MR. VICKERY:  Oh, the gun.
 
       15      A.    I wasn't aware of that.
 
       16      Q.    (BY MR. PREUSS)  And you never got a gun.
 
       17      A.    No.
 
       18      Q.    Is Mike living in the home now?
 
       19      A.    He is.
 
       20      Q.    When did he move in?  Or __
 
       21      A.    It was months after.
 
       22      Q.    Yeah, that's what __
 
       23      A.    Yeah.  I don't know exactly.
 
       24      Q.    About how many months?
 
       25      A.    You know, I don't even know.  It was all I

 

 
                                                              74

 
        1  could do to get up in the morning.
 
        2      Q.    Does anybody live in the house with him?
 
        3      A.    Not that I know of.
 
        4      Q.    Is he employed now here in Gillette?
 
        5      A.    I don't know.
 
        6      Q.    Have you had any contact with Mike at all
 
        7  since the death of your family?
 
        8      A.    No.  I have had real limited contact with most
 
        9  of the family.
 
       10      Q.    Have you had any contact with the family?
 
       11      A.    Talked to Mimi a couple times and Neva a
 
       12  couple times.  Deb's aunt Peg I talked to a couple
 
       13  times.  It just was hard.
 
       14      Q.    When was the last time you talked with any of
 
       15  them?
 
       16      A.    Probably a year.
 
       17      Q.    Do you find it easier if you __ to stop the
 
       18  relationships that were in the past that remind you of
 
       19  Deb?
 
       20      A.    Yeah.
 
       21      Q.    Have anybody on her family's side made an
 
       22  effort to stay in touch with you?
 
       23      A.    Peg sends cards and Neva for a while.  We
 
       24  would talk on the phone.  And I think on this, everybody
 
       25  is about the same.  It's just __ I think it's best the

 

 
                                                              75

 
        1  way it is.  I know it's hard on me and I'm sure it's
 
        2  hard on them.  We're just reminders of very special
 
        3  people.
 
        4      Q.    So, the break in the contact, if you will __
 
        5  you can phrase it any other way, if you want __ is
 
        6  something you feel is healthier for both you and for
 
        7  Deb's side of the family.
 
        8      A.    I don't know for them, but for me, it's
 
        9  probably easier.  I don't know if it would be
 
       10  healthier.  I don't know if how I deal with this is
 
       11  necessarily healthy.  I just know how I deal with it is
 
       12  best for me.  I don't mean to sound like a riddle.  I
 
       13  just __
 
       14      Q.    I understand.
 
       15      A.    That sounded like a riddle.
 
       16      Q.    No, it sounded __
 
       17      A.    I just don't __ I have a very, very hard time
 
       18  with this still.  And any reminders __ I just sold the
 
       19  house because I couldn't handle that anymore.  And I
 
       20  have all of Deb's things and Alyssa's.  I can't give
 
       21  them away, throw them away or anything.  I have them in
 
       22  a room and I can't look at them.
 
       23      Q.    You still have them in a room in your present
 
       24  house?
 
       25      A.    Yeah.  And that goes kind of hand in hand with

 

 
                                                              76

 
        1  people, too.  I have lost touch with just about
 
        2  everybody.
 
        3      Q.    Your other friends, you mean, that __
 
        4      A.    Yeah.  I just __
 
        5      Q.    Mutual friends that you and Deb had?
 
        6      A.    Yeah.
 
        7      Q.    You do maintain contact with your mom and your
 
        8  stepfather.
 
        9      A.    Yeah.  I __ my family, when I went to Billings
 
       10  and left here, it was a place I just never wanted to
 
       11  come back.  And it was just too hard.  Even being here
 
       12  now is extremely difficult for me.
 
       13      Q.    I'm sorry.  You said when you left here to go
 
       14  to Billings?
 
       15      A.    Yeah.  I just didn't want to come back and I
 
       16  felt __
 
       17      Q.    You mean __
 
       18      A.    __ that it was easier to break the
 
       19  relationships.  I have a lot of guilt with that, too,
 
       20  because I know Mimi __ Deb thought quite a bit of Mimi.
 
       21  And it's just best for me.  I don't know how else to
 
       22  describe it.
 
       23      Q.    I'm not sure I understood one thing.  You said
 
       24  when you moved from here to Billings, you wanted to
 
       25  forget about __

 

 
                                                              77

 
        1      A.    I'm sorry.  I didn't mean move.  When I left
 
        2  after I came back to pick up Deb's stuff, I swore I
 
        3  would never come back here.  And actually,
 
        4  unfortunately, even now, it's very, very difficult.
 
        5      Q.    Being here today __
 
        6      A.    Yeah.
 
        7      Q.    __ talking about it.
 
        8      A.    And my family, just so __ I know I'm not
 
        9  making much sense.  My brother came and lived with me
 
       10  for about ten months until I sold the house.  I couldn't
 
       11  take care of myself.  Outside of waking up, I went to
 
       12  work.  I was useless at work.  I would come home and my
 
       13  brother would make me dinner, my brother and his friend,
 
       14  and make sure I went to bed.  That was the extent of my
 
       15  life, and my mom and my stepdad and some friends that __
 
       16  very few friends, maybe like two, I didn't want to see
 
       17  anybody.  I didn't want __ so I think if I had probably
 
       18  broken from my parents and my brother, I would probably
 
       19  have isolated myself from them, too.  They just happened
 
       20  to be there.  And they weren't going to let anything
 
       21  happen to me.  And I was in bad shape.  So, I look back
 
       22  now and I'm glad they were there.
 
       23      Q.    So how soon after did your brother and his
 
       24  friend move into your house then?
 
       25      A.    Immediately.  They didn't leave me alone for

 

 
                                                              78

 
        1  two weeks.  Someone slept with me when I went to sleep
 
        2  because I was __ I was gone.
 
        3      Q.    Did you have suicidal thoughts?
 
        4      A.    Yeah.
 
        5      Q.    Did you seek any medical attention?
 
        6      A.    I finally went to a therapist.  I went to him
 
        7  for probably four or five months.  I was afraid.  I was
 
        8  afraid to go to sleep.  I was afraid to wake up.
 
        9      Q.    Who was the therapist you saw?
 
       10      A.    Lou Gumper, G_u_m_p_e_r.
 
       11      Q.    In Billings?
 
       12      A.    Yes.
 
       13      Q.    Is he a psychiatrist?
 
       14      A.    Whichever the one is that doesn't prescribe
 
       15  medicine.
 
       16      Q.    Psychologist.
 
       17      A.    He's a psychologist.
 
       18      Q.    How did you get ahold of him?
 
       19      A.    Some people told my mom that some other people
 
       20  that had had __ he had treated some other people that
 
       21  had had some fairly catastrophic things happen to them,
 
       22  and it seemed like it was his specialty, I guess.  So,
 
       23  everyone knew I was having a hard time.  They
 
       24  basically __ it was one Sunday, they made me __ they
 
       25  said, "That's it.  You're going to go."

 

 
                                                              79

 
        1            So he came in.  He was aware of the
 
        2  circumstances with everything.  He made a special effort
 
        3  to come in.  I was just having too hard a time.  They
 
        4  didn't know __ they didn't know what other options at
 
        5  that point there was.  I mean, I didn't want anything
 
        6  for it.  I didn't want to do anything.
 
        7      Q.    Were you able to eat?
 
        8      A.    No.
 
        9      Q.    Did they make you eat, your brother?
 
       10      A.    Yeah.  The first two weeks were very hard.  I
 
       11  couldn't keep anything down.  And slowly but surely, I
 
       12  started to be able to __ you know, I kept some food
 
       13  down.  It's just if I got upset while I was eating, I
 
       14  would usually get sick.
 
       15      Q.    So did you just resign your job or how did
 
       16  your job end?
 
       17      A.    My __ Duane, who was my boss, came and talked
 
       18  to me after about three weeks.  And he's a very, very
 
       19  sweet man, actually, because I was completely useless.
 
       20  He said, "We want you back.  I'm not telling you you
 
       21  need to come back.  You can have your job whenever you
 
       22  want it."  He goes, "I just" __ we talked for about an
 
       23  hour and he said, "I would just like you to come down,
 
       24  just come down."
 
       25            I don't know if my mom had talked to him or if

 

 
                                                              80

 
        1  she felt like I needed to get out, because all I was
 
        2  doing was staying in the house.  I wouldn't go
 
        3  anywhere.
 
        4            So Duane came down.  Felt like I kind of owed
 
        5  him a little bit, ironically at that time, you know, he
 
        6  had been so good to me.  And I know they were having
 
        7  some problems with just staffing because I was gone.
 
        8  And so I agreed to go down part time.  And then that's
 
        9  how I got back into that.
 
       10      Q.    That was about three weeks after?
 
       11      A.    Yeah.
 
       12      Q.    And when did it __ how long was it before you
 
       13  got back full time?
 
       14      A.    You know, I never really got back full time.
 
       15  I started off just a couple hours here, but, you know,
 
       16  that was gimme work.  You know, I __ I mean,
 
       17  admittedly, I was useless.  I would sit in my office for
 
       18  hours and couldn't do anything.  I would leave.  I would
 
       19  go get coffee and I just would be gone for __ and Duane,
 
       20  bless his soul, just said, Well, that was fine.
 
       21      Q.    How long did that last then?
 
       22      A.    I worked for about another year there and then
 
       23  I just __ I needed to get away.  So I quit and traveled
 
       24  a little.  I had a hard time being in Billings.  I sold
 
       25  the house.

 

 
                                                              81

 
        1      Q.    Sold the house before you went traveling?
 
        2      A.    Yeah.  I didn't know what to do.  You know, I
 
        3  wish I had some stock thing where I said, you know, I
 
        4  knew what I was __ you know, I don't.  I think at that
 
        5  point I was still in such shock, I think, you know, and
 
        6  I started having bad dreams about __ I just couldn't
 
        7  sleep.  And then I started having nightmares after a few
 
        8  months.  And I just got so tired of everything that I
 
        9  just wanted to leave.
 
       10            And so, I went to Australia and came back.
 
       11  And I got back, actually, and that's when I formally
 
       12  quit my job.  I just told Duane, I said, "I don't know
 
       13  what I can do."
 
       14            And, of course, he just said, you know, "Take
 
       15  as much time and we'll hire you back."  I mean, the guy
 
       16  is __ I really am fortunate.  And then I went mountain
 
       17  climbing in South America.  I just wanted to get away.
 
       18      Q.    How long were you in Australia?
 
       19      A.    A month.
 
       20      Q.    How long were you in South America?
 
       21      A.    Two and a half months.
 
       22      Q.    When was your next job then after you came
 
       23  back from South America?
 
       24      A.    That was the one that started.
 
       25      Q.    As the independent contractor?

 

 
                                                              82

 
        1      A.    Yeah.
 
        2      Q.    Were you more on your own time on that?
 
        3      A.    No.  It was a pretty hectic schedule.  We had
 
        4  to be out there with __ you know, I kind of cleared my
 
        5  head of the whole __ I wasn't __ actually, I wasn't sure
 
        6  if I was coming back.  So I got my will in order.  And,
 
        7  I mean, I was kind of haunted by the whole thing, I
 
        8  guess is the best way to put it.
 
        9            So I had consciously made an effort, I think,
 
       10  to make myself as far away from everything that I loved
 
       11  as possible.  And so I decided I was going to become an
 
       12  extremist, basically.  I figured that's about all my
 
       13  life was good for at that point.  I wasn't afraid to
 
       14  die.  I really didn't feel like I belonged anywhere.
 
       15  And __
 
       16      Q.    Hang gliding?
 
       17      A.    Hang gliding.  I basically tried to kill
 
       18  myself, I think, at that point without really doing it,
 
       19  because I felt guilty then of my family.  And they were
 
       20  worried.  I was drinking kind of heavily.  That was
 
       21  about the only way I could sleep or I thought that was
 
       22  the only way I could sleep.  And I really just wasn't a
 
       23  healthy man at that point.  And I didn't know what to
 
       24  do.
 
       25      Q.    What period of time are we talking before you

 

 
                                                              83

 
        1  came back then and started working with this independent
 
        2  contractor?
 
        3      A.    I came back and stayed at my house for
 
        4  probably six months, five months.  I still __ I went to
 
        5  New Zealand for __ basically up until February of last
 
        6  year __ February of this year.  Excuse me.  I had spent
 
        7  almost a year away, pretty much.  I would come back
 
        8  and __ I would come back and think I was going to get my
 
        9  life in order.  And it would be too hard to be back.
 
       10  And then I would leave again.  And then something else
 
       11  would happen and I would leave.  I couldn't deal with
 
       12  anything.
 
       13            And so, I got back from my last traveling,
 
       14  which was February of this last __ this current year,
 
       15  2000, and I kind of made a decision that I was going to
 
       16  either completely give up or try and make a go of life,
 
       17  I guess, at this point.
 
       18            It's not as dramatic __ I mean, I'm not trying
 
       19  to make this sound dramatic.  I didn't literally sit
 
       20  there and go, all right.  Today is the day, Tim.  You're
 
       21  going to __ I just came back.  And I was tired of being
 
       22  tired and I was tired of being away from people I cared
 
       23  about.  And I really didn't want to end up hurting my
 
       24  parents and my brother and people that cared about me.
 
       25  And that's kind of where I was headed.

 

 
                                                              84

 
        1      Q.    Okay.  So we're talking about roughly in a
 
        2  two_year period, then, before you came back and really
 
        3  got started again.  Right?
 
        4      A.    Yeah.  Went to work in there right afterwards,
 
        5  but, yeah, I was not what I would call a full_time
 
        6  employee because I had just __ I just wasn't there.  You
 
        7  know, I __
 
        8      Q.    And your brother stayed with you and his
 
        9  friend for about ten months, I think you said?
 
       10      A.    About ten months, yeah.
 
       11      Q.    And you sold the house?
 
       12      A.    Yeah.
 
       13      Q.    And then you went down to Australia?
 
       14      A.    Yeah.  When I left, it was right at the year
 
       15  anniversary, and I didn't want to be anywhere near here.
 
       16      Q.    That's February '99.
 
       17      A.    Yeah.  And I had actually bought the house in
 
       18  October.  I sold the house in October.  Excuse me.  I
 
       19  sold the 2020 Glendale in October.  And I was trying to
 
       20  figure out what to do.  So I bought another smaller
 
       21  house.  And I have a cat, and __ it's more Deb's cat.
 
       22  And I just didn't want to live in an apartment with
 
       23  Maggie.  That's the cat.
 
       24            So I had the house and I figured I could rent
 
       25  it out or something if I was gone.  And so I did that.

 

 
                                                              85

 
        1  And then in February, I left.  And that's what started
 
        2  my travels.  I kind of wanted to stay.  I just
 
        3  couldn't.  And as the anniversary of me losing them
 
        4  came, I just couldn't stay.  And so I just left.  I
 
        5  went __ picked the farthest place I could go.
 
        6      Q.    And at that time you had sold your house that
 
        7  you and __
 
        8      A.    2020 Glendale, yeah.
 
        9      Q.    And you bought another house?
 
       10      A.    Yeah.
 
       11      Q.    And did you rent it out?
 
       12      A.    No.  I just kept it.
 
       13      Q.    And that's the house you now live in?
 
       14      A.    Yeah.
 
       15      Q.    And the people mentioned earlier are living
 
       16  with you?
 
       17      A.    Correct.  I was by myself completely
 
       18  through __ all the way up you know, I would say, March
 
       19  of this year.  And my mom had tried to get me to come
 
       20  stay with her because I wouldn't leave the house.  I
 
       21  would just stay in the basement.
 
       22      Q.    And the psychologist you started seeing how
 
       23  far after the __
 
       24      A.    I would say, you know __
 
       25      Q.    __ incident?

 

 
                                                              86

 
        1      A.    You know, I think it was a couple weeks
 
        2  actually.  Think I said a couple months.  It was a
 
        3  couple weeks, because that whole time period, I'm not
 
        4  really good at __ after everything.  I'm pretty sure it
 
        5  was a couple weeks.  And I saw him quite a bit that
 
        6  first month.  I mean, he really kind of got me to where
 
        7  I was a lot more stable.
 
        8      Q.    Did you have any medications that you were
 
        9  taking?
 
       10      A.    No.  I got __ at one point I got basically so
 
       11  bad that I told him I would never go on medication,
 
       12  ever.  And then I was so depressed.  He goes, "Well,
 
       13  maybe you should talk you to a psychiatrist, I guess."
 
       14            So I went in there and I said, "Look, I don't
 
       15  want any medicine, but" __ and I said, "Well, I'll go
 
       16  talk to him."  And even after I said what happened,
 
       17  irrespective of who thinks what, the guy prescribed me
 
       18  Prozac.  And after I told him, I said, "I don't want any
 
       19  medication," you know, he goes, "Well, this has nothing
 
       20  to do with anything," whipped off a __ and I came back
 
       21  and I just told Lou, I said, "I can't do it."  So, no.
 
       22  The answer and is no.
 
       23      Q.    When did you start the drinking?
 
       24      A.    Within a couple months.  I had such bad
 
       25  nightmares I couldn't __

 

 
                                                              87

 
        1      Q.    A couple months after you started the
 
        2  drinking?
 
        3      A.    Excuse me.  After the death.
 
        4      Q.    After the death?
 
        5      A.    After the death, I started drinking.  And I
 
        6  wouldn't say I was like a lush.  I would just drink at
 
        7  night so that I could sleep.
 
        8      Q.    How long did that go on?
 
        9      A.    For quite a while.  I would say six or eight
 
       10  months.  And towards the end, it had basically just
 
       11  become where that's all I was doing, I think.  And my
 
       12  brother and my mom stepped in and said that was enough,
 
       13  that needed to stop.  They were right.  Actually, I __
 
       14      Q.    So when did the alcohol consumption stop?
 
       15      A.    I would say before I went to Australia.
 
       16      Q.    Within a year then?
 
       17      A.    Yeah.  You know, I mean, after that, I would
 
       18  still drink periodically and I would still __ I still
 
       19  have a hard time sleeping.  But I try not to drink and
 
       20  it's __ I'm not an alcoholic, I just didn't know __ I
 
       21  mean, what else is my options?  I was afraid to take __
 
       22  I was afraid to take anything.
 
       23      Q.    Do you still drink today?
 
       24      A.    Just socially now.  I haven't had a drink up
 
       25  until I knew I was coming down here for probably, other

 

 
                                                              88

 
        1  than maybe three beers, probably in the last six
 
        2  months.
 
        3      Q.    Beer is what you were drinking?
 
        4      A.    No.  I was drinking vodka.
 
        5      Q.    Did you ever act out any suicidal thought?
 
        6      A.    No.
 
        7      Q.    And this extremism, am I understanding you to
 
        8  mean that you engage in activities that are highly
 
        9  dangerous and could result in death?
 
       10      A.    Yeah.  I mean, I wasn't, you know, like doing
 
       11  anything __ just my frame of mind was where I was just
 
       12  basically willing to try just about anything.  I mean, I
 
       13  wasn't scared of anything.  Even worse than that, I
 
       14  wasn't scared of dying.  And, you know, I think that's
 
       15  what made it dangerous is that I just didn't care.
 
       16      Q.    So you went mountain climbing?
 
       17      A.    Yeah.
 
       18      Q.    You went hang gliding?
 
       19      A.    Hang gliding.
 
       20      Q.    What other activities?
 
       21      A.    I went free diving, deep free diving in the
 
       22  Great Barrier Reef.  I jumped off a cliff on the Tulle
 
       23  River.  It's probably about 60 feet and I just dove
 
       24  off.  And white water rafting, bungee jumping.  If I
 
       25  could have got into a race car, I probably would have

 

 
                                                              89

 
        1  done that.  If I __ I mean, it was basically whatever
 
        2  was available.
 
        3      Q.    You never got into an airplane?
 
        4      A.    Never did an airplane.  Quite honestly, I
 
        5  always thought it was more __ stuff like the __ you
 
        6  know, the sports, I guess, was more __ I didn't really
 
        7  think about flying.  So I never flew.
 
        8            I wanted to parachute, because I wanted to
 
        9  base jump.  I think when I got back and I had decided I
 
       10  was going to be a base jumper with no parachuting
 
       11  experience, my family just basically had had enough.
 
       12  And, you know, I was just kind of laughing about it.  It
 
       13  was like, well, you know, base jumping is the real __
 
       14                  MR. VICKERY:  What's that word you're
 
       15  saying?
 
       16                  MR. PREUSS:  Base.
 
       17                  THE DEPONENT:  Base.
 
       18                  MR. VICKERY:  Bates?
 
       19                  THE DEPONENT:  B_a_s_e.  It's like where
 
       20  you jump off a tower or Angel Falls in Venezuela.  I
 
       21  kind of envisioned myself.  That was my oath to Deborah
 
       22  in a way.  So I was going to make it extravagant.
 
       23  And __
 
       24      Q.    (BY MR. PREUSS)  You jump with a parachute?
 
       25      A.    Yeah.

 

 
                                                              90

 
        1      Q.    But the margin is fairly narrow.
 
        2      A.    Yeah.  I mean, it's just __ I say extremist
 
        3  activity, extremist for me.  That was quite a __ I mean,
 
        4  and then where it was headed was definitely down the
 
        5  wrong road to stuff like that.  And it's not that I am
 
        6  very brave because I'm not.  I just didn't care.  I
 
        7  guess that's what made it bad.  You know, I just didn't
 
        8  care.
 
        9      Q.    You didn't weigh the risks.
 
       10      A.    No.  And I did get it in my mind for a while
 
       11  that, I thought, well, you know, what a way to go.  It
 
       12  was always when I do try something or think of
 
       13  something, I would say, what a way to go.  And then, you
 
       14  know, my family were like, you know, "You know how you
 
       15  miss Deb and Alyssa.  Imagine us losing you now.  We
 
       16  have lost Deb and Alyssa.  Don and Rita are gone.  And
 
       17  then you would be gone.  And there is nobody left."
 
       18  This is my folks, you know.  And actually, when they put
 
       19  it in that context, that kind of __ I don't know.  It
 
       20  was kind of a re __ I wasn't the health __ you know,
 
       21  none of this, I look back now and I think, well, this is
 
       22  what I was doing, but at the time I didn't really have
 
       23  like this well_thought_out thing of, well, this is what
 
       24  I am going to do.  It was awfully chaotic, I guess.  And
 
       25  that kind of stopped when my brother and my mom __ you

 

 
                                                              91

 
        1  know, here is my mom, you know.  She's in tears and
 
        2  she's like, "Well, we don't want to lose you.  I mean,
 
        3  imagine how you felt."  And she pulled the old mother
 
        4  guilt, and I guess it worked, because I kind of stopped
 
        5  doing that.  I didn't __ I was happy to give it up, you
 
        6  know.  I hadn't progressed to a point, you know, where I
 
        7  was an extremist, but I just __ I think for me, it was
 
        8  just a way to escape, I guess, just like the drinking
 
        9  was for a while.  That's all it was, you know.
 
       10      Q.    When did you give it up, as you say?
 
       11      A.    When I got back from South America, I kind of
 
       12  felt like I needed to really kind of get some sort of
 
       13  foundation again.  And that was in August __ excuse
 
       14  me __ September.  So I tried.  And the February
 
       15  anniversary came around and I just couldn't __ I just
 
       16  couldn't do it.
 
       17            So I went down to New Zealand and did kind of
 
       18  the same thing but a lot more __ it was more just to get
 
       19  away.  I ended up climbing a glacier but it wasn't __ it
 
       20  wasn't like __
 
       21      Q.    Mount Cook?
 
       22      A.    Yeah.  So __ actually, we did Fox Glacier.
 
       23  And then I did hang gliding down there, too.  But for
 
       24  me, it was, I think __ I don't know.  It was like a
 
       25  last __ I don't want to do it anymore, you know.

 

 
                                                              92

 
        1      Q.    And that trip was February of '99?
 
        2      A.    February of 2000.
 
        3      Q.    February of 2000.
 
        4      A.    Yeah.  I'm sorry.  That brought us all the way
 
        5  up to where I had basically come back and decided that I
 
        6  was here to stay, whether it was good or bad.
 
        7      Q.    And how often do you chat with your mom
 
        8  nowadays?
 
        9      A.    Almost daily.
 
       10      Q.    How about your brother?
 
       11      A.    Probably once or twice a week.
 
       12      Q.    Are they your primary support vehicle?
 
       13      A.    The gal I'm dating now is very understanding
 
       14  about Deb and Alyssa.  So I feel comfortable to talk a
 
       15  little bit about them to her.  Mainly I keep most of
 
       16  that very private.  It's just kind of hard to talk
 
       17  about.
 
       18                  MR. GORMAN:  Can I clear up one thing in
 
       19  my notes?  You say when you returned from South America
 
       20  in, I think you said September of 2000.
 
       21                  THE DEPONENT:  That would have been '99,
 
       22  September of '99, September or October.
 
       23                  MR. PREUSS:  Want to take a short
 
       24  break?
 
       25                  MR. GORMAN:  And then in February, you

 

 
                                                              93

 
        1  went back to New Zealand.
 
        2                  THE DEPONENT:  Right.  And then I came
 
        3  back after that, and I haven't done any __
 
        4                  MR. GORMAN:  Okay.  We're talking
 
        5  February of 2000 now.
 
        6                  THE DEPONENT:  Yeah.
 
        7                  (Deposition proceedings recessed 11:21
 
        8                  a.m. to 11:34 a.m.)
 
        9      Q.    (BY MR. PREUSS)  You indicated when your
 
       10  psychologist recommended you go see a psychiatrist, that
 
       11  you told him that you didn't want to take any
 
       12  medication.  Why is that?
 
       13      A.    Well, at that point, you know __ I guess this
 
       14  is where it comes down to the whole thing.  You know,
 
       15  the Don I knew without the medicine wouldn't have done
 
       16  this.  That's what I __ that's what I believe.  And it
 
       17  scared me to actually think about taking anything that
 
       18  would force me to do something where I didn't have, you
 
       19  know __ I just didn't feel comfortable taking it after
 
       20  what had happened.
 
       21      Q.    So you formed an impression in your mind that
 
       22  the medication that Don was taking was responsible for
 
       23  what he did?
 
       24      A.    Yeah.
 
       25      Q.    Do you have any basis for that other than your

 

 
                                                              94

 
        1  own __
 
        2      A.    No.
 
        3      Q.    __ thought process?
 
        4      A.    Just my own.
 
        5      Q.    Did you know he was taking medications at all
 
        6  that final week?
 
        7      A.    I knew he started, yeah, on __ I knew he
 
        8  started midweek.
 
        9      Q.    And you learned that from Debbie?
 
       10      A.    Yeah.  They said they were going to go in.
 
       11  Actually, the weekend before, we all kind of talked
 
       12  about it, and Don said he felt like he needed to go in.
 
       13  Just relaxing and reading and taking some time for
 
       14  himself weren't working, and he just felt like he needed
 
       15  something to kind of help him get back up on top again,
 
       16  you know what I mean, just something that would give
 
       17  him __ it had worked before, and so he felt like that's
 
       18  what he needed to do.  And it __
 
       19      Q.    You say you had a conversation with Don the
 
       20  weekend before.
 
       21      A.    Yeah.
 
       22      Q.    You were in Billings.  Right?
 
       23      A.    No.  I was actually in Gillette that weekend
 
       24  before they were killed.  I __ both weekends before.
 
       25  The first of the month or somewhere about that, whatever

 

 
                                                              95

 
        1  weekend that was __ I'm sorry.  I don't remember the
 
        2  exact date.  But that first weekend of the month, I met
 
        3  them in Sheridan.
 
        4      Q.    Sheridan?
 
        5      A.    Yeah.  And the following weekend, I came down
 
        6  to Gillette.  And at that point, he wasn't doing bad.
 
        7  He just was down.  But he felt like he __ you know, he
 
        8  was going to go in to a doctor, his family practitioner,
 
        9  and see if there was __ he could get back on whatever it
 
       10  was he was taking before.  I don't know if it was
 
       11  imipramine or something that was __ that part I don't
 
       12  know.
 
       13      Q.    How do you know about imipramine?
 
       14      A.    Don __ whenever he got depressed, I was one of
 
       15  the few people Don would talk to, really talk to.
 
       16      Q.    So you knew he had been on imipramine before?
 
       17      A.    If it was imipramine, yeah.  I don't remember
 
       18  the names.  But he wasn't on it for very long, and he
 
       19  didn't like being on the medicine.  He was a proud man,
 
       20  you know.  He didn't feel like he should need the
 
       21  medicine.  But then I think every __ you know, it had
 
       22  worked before, and basically, all it did before was it
 
       23  gave him kind of a __ as far as I was concerned, he did
 
       24  it on his own, but it was just something that __ I don't
 
       25  know.  If it has placebo effect or whether it actually

 

 
                                                              96

 
        1  worked, I don't know.  But it kind of got him in a frame
 
        2  of mind to where he was ready to go back out and start
 
        3  doing the things that actually did make him feel better,
 
        4  which was working, being involved with his family,
 
        5  outside of, you know, just staying in the house.
 
        6      Q.    Okay.  Let's back up a little bit.  Why did
 
        7  Debbie initially go to Gillette that led to your
 
        8  rendezvousing in Sheridan?
 
        9      A.    We decided that we were going to take some
 
       10  time to ourselves.  And the initial plan was I was going
 
       11  to drop Deb off for that weekend and then come down and
 
       12  pick her up, and we were just going to spend like a nice
 
       13  night away.  And her dad's depression kind of __ you
 
       14  know, with him being down, we just thought, well, maybe
 
       15  she should stay the week and kind of help out a little
 
       16  bit.  And he liked having Alyssa around, and Deb always
 
       17  made him __ actually, if we were around, he seemed to do
 
       18  better, actually.  I'm not taking any credit.  I mean,
 
       19  Rita obviously was the main person, but you know how it
 
       20  is with family.  If they are around, sometimes it
 
       21  helps.  And then Deb got sick.
 
       22            And so, we just figured with everything going
 
       23  on, I was working and wasn't able to help her during the
 
       24  day.  And Mom at that point __ this is really going to
 
       25  confuse you.  She wasn't around at that point either.

 

 
                                                              97

 
        1  She was down in Texas where Carl was working.  So there
 
        2  was really nobody in Billings that we trusted really to
 
        3  leave Alyssa with.  We were pretty paranoid about that.
 
        4  And so we thought that if Alyssa and Deb were around,
 
        5  given that our plans had kind of changed at that point
 
        6  about kind of having a night away, that they should just
 
        7  stay.
 
        8            I'm sorry.  I'm confusing myself.  We just __
 
        9  we had just decided that for everybody involved and
 
       10  everything going on and Deb not feeling good and Don not
 
       11  feeling good and Alyssa and Deb cheering Don up and me
 
       12  coming down on weekends helping, we just felt it was
 
       13  kind of nice to do that, for everybody.  I didn't have
 
       14  to worry about my little girl being sick and Deb being
 
       15  sick.  And Rita was there to help and Don was there to
 
       16  help.  And it seemed to make Don feel better.  And Deb
 
       17  didn't have to worry about things with me being at
 
       18  work.  And we were on a tight budget and I couldn't just
 
       19  take days off.  I wish I could have, but, you know __
 
       20  and so for the whole two weeks just simply the way
 
       21  everything was going, it just seemed like that was the
 
       22  best thing for that time.  And, you know, we decided
 
       23  that was __ we had spent __ that was the most time we
 
       24  had spent apart, Deb and I, and it was the most time I
 
       25  spent away from Alyssa.  And we were just kind of

 

 
                                                              98

 
        1  laughing that night before she was going to come back
 
        2  home.  And she said, you know, it just seems like things
 
        3  will be better and I'm feeling better.  You know, we'll
 
        4  just __ mainly it was her dad.  She just wanted to make
 
        5  sure her dad was okay.  And that was fine with me.
 
        6      Q.    Okay.  Before the Sheridan rendezvous __
 
        7      A.    Yeah.
 
        8      Q.    __ what was the motivation?  Was the
 
        9  motivation to __
 
       10      A.    For us to get a night away.
 
       11      Q.    Get a night away.
 
       12      A.    Yeah.  That was it.  It was only going to be
 
       13  that weekend.
 
       14      Q.    And you tried your mom for baby_sitting but
 
       15  she was going to be in Texas so that wasn't an option?
 
       16      A.    She was in Texas.
 
       17      Q.    Had you ever had anybody else take care of
 
       18  Alyssa besides your mom and Rita?
 
       19      A.    No, nobody.  I take that back.  We had a
 
       20  friend stay for a couple hours with Alyssa during the
 
       21  afternoon and early evening while Deb and I just ran and
 
       22  had dinner.  But other than that, it was Don and Rita
 
       23  that took care of Alyssa or my mom.  And those are the
 
       24  only people we trusted Alyssa with for any length of
 
       25  time.

 

 
                                                              99

 
        1            You know, like I said, a friend of Deb's would
 
        2  come over and that would give us just time together.
 
        3  But, you know, you just don't have time after you have a
 
        4  baby.  So we were trying to find a balance where two
 
        5  neurotic parents __ we spent all of our time with
 
        6  Alyssa.  And we just realized that we were __ I mean, we
 
        7  just weren't spending enough time together.
 
        8            So really, the whole reason for being down
 
        9  here, which ended up in the two weeks, was just for us
 
       10  to have time together, just a night, you know, a night
 
       11  where we didn't have to worry about Alyssa.
 
       12            It wasn't a huge stress.  It was just
 
       13  something where we needed time together where we could
 
       14  just sit there.  I mean, my preference was to have all
 
       15  three of us together.  But, you know, Deb and I just
 
       16  needed some time by ourselves just to __ don't get me
 
       17  wrong.  I love __ I mean, it's not like there was any
 
       18  problem.  It's just we wanted time together.
 
       19      Q.    Okay.  And up to that time, how many evenings
 
       20  had you spent away from Alyssa where your mom covered
 
       21  for you?
 
       22      A.    You know, with anybody covering?  There was
 
       23  probably three.  With my mom, she was up over the
 
       24  holidays.  I mean, we're talking just hours away.  We
 
       25  had come up earlier and Don and Rita had looked after

 

 
                                                              100

 
        1  Alyssa.  I can't remember if it was the month before.
 
        2  And we left for the evening.
 
        3            That was the very, very first time.  In fact,
 
        4  we didn't __ we were both a mess.  We were calling back,
 
        5  you know, like, just relax.  She's doing fine.  Alyssa
 
        6  had gotten to where she was sleeping through the night.
 
        7  And, you know, it was like we had this plan made that
 
        8  age where she was doing okay.  And we were becoming
 
        9  better as parents.  I mean, we weren't __ we kind of
 
       10  talked that we were becoming so __ I was so
 
       11  overprotective of my daughter and Deb, I like to think
 
       12  in a healthy way, but they were my whole life.
 
       13            So I basically spent all my time.  Hobbies
 
       14  were my daughter at that point.  You know, I didn't even
 
       15  read anymore.  There just wasn't any time.
 
       16            So we really didn't trust hardly anybody with
 
       17  Alyssa.  That was a hard thing for us.
 
       18            We __ Deb, when she needed to run a errand and
 
       19  I was at work, she had just started letting a day care
 
       20  watch Alyssa for hours, not a half a day, but for a
 
       21  couple hours.  And she had done that maybe once or
 
       22  twice.  But in terms of leaving her overnight, it was
 
       23  strictly the only people we had done that with was Don
 
       24  and Rita before.  And those were the only people I felt
 
       25  comfortable with.

 

 
                                                              101

 
        1      Q.    But even with Don and Rita and your mom,
 
        2  nobody had taken care of Alyssa for a whole night?
 
        3      A.    Don and Rita had once before.  And Deb and I
 
        4  came down to Gillette, and we didn't have time to
 
        5  celebrate our anniversary at the time of our anniversary
 
        6  because Alyssa was still pretty new and we were a mess.
 
        7  So it was a couple months later that we __ probably two,
 
        8  two months later maybe that we had come down and went
 
        9  over to where __ Deb and I had spent this place outside
 
       10  of Rapid City and it was kind of a special place for
 
       11  us.  So we went and spent the night and came back and
 
       12  took Alyssa.  And most of the night we spent worrying
 
       13  about Alyssa.  Supposed to be a romantic evening and we
 
       14  spent most of it worrying about Alyssa.
 
       15      Q.    All right.  So, then you called up Don and
 
       16  Rita and said, "We're going to come down for the
 
       17  weekend," and __
 
       18      A.    Yeah.
 
       19      Q.    And then you were going to take Monday off?
 
       20      A.    Yeah.  I was going to see if I could get back
 
       21  or __ we kind of left it up in the air at that point,
 
       22  because Don had started not to feel good.  And we had
 
       23  actually thought maybe of not bringing Alyssa down.  And
 
       24  Rita told Deb that she thought it was probably a good
 
       25  thing that we come down with her because that would help

 

 
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        1  Don.
 
        2            Don was really involved with Alyssa.  He was
 
        3  great, you know, I mean, my mom, my folks, her folks,
 
        4  everybody.  But it seemed like at least for the weekend
 
        5  at that point, we thought, Well, why don't you guys just
 
        6  go down __ this is me talking to Deb.  "Why don't you
 
        7  guys just go down.  We'll __ I'll drop you off.  You
 
        8  guys go back to Gillette, enjoy yourself and then help
 
        9  Don," because that had kind of become the focus at that
 
       10  point.  It's not that Alyssa was going to solve any
 
       11  problems or Deb, but it just made it nicer.
 
       12            Deb kind of needed a __ she said, "Well, you
 
       13  know, it will be a break for both of us," and Don and
 
       14  Rita or her folks would have helped her a little bit
 
       15  with Alyssa, and it was just kind of nice every now and
 
       16  then, you know, to have that help because Deb did it all
 
       17  on her own.  We really didn't have any __ I couldn't
 
       18  afford anybody to clean the house.  It was me, you know,
 
       19  no nannies, no day care.  We were on a strict budget,
 
       20  you know.  Deb and I were both pretty happy with that,
 
       21  but that meant we didn't have much room, you know,
 
       22  because we wanted to save something and pay our house.
 
       23      Q.    Were you working over the weekend?
 
       24      A.    No.  I'm trying to remember if I brought her
 
       25  down on Saturday or I brought her down on Sunday,

 

 
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        1  because initially we were going to come down on Saturday
 
        2  and then __ or Friday and then go for __ or however it
 
        3  worked, we were going to come down for one day, spend
 
        4  the night over in Rapid City and then come back the next
 
        5  day.  So it must have been Saturday we were going to
 
        6  come down, drop Alyssa off, make sure she was okay, go
 
        7  back over, celebrate our anniversary late.
 
        8      Q.    And when you planned out that arrangement and
 
        9  had talked to Don and Rita, is that when you learned
 
       10  that Don was not doing so well?
 
       11      A.    Yeah.
 
       12      Q.    Did you know prior to that time that he was
 
       13  depressed?
 
       14      A.    Yeah.  When I dropped Deb off, he had been
 
       15  feeling down for that __ I think that week before.  And
 
       16  I can't remember if it was the week even before that.
 
       17  But anyway, it was sometime prior to that and seemed to
 
       18  be doing all right.  You know, I can't remember, it's
 
       19  been so long, but __ on those type of details.  But I
 
       20  don't remember if he had taken time off work already or
 
       21  if he was thinking about it.  And actually, I think he
 
       22  was still working at that point, is a guess.
 
       23      Q.    You mean "at that point" being the Sheridan __
 
       24      A.    When we dropped __
 
       25      Q.    __ weekend?

 

 
                                                              104

 
        1      A.    Yeah.  And I'm pretty sure he still was
 
        2  working.
 
        3      Q.    Well, when did you give up the idea of having
 
        4  a night for the two of you, when you actually left?
 
        5      A.    Oh, yeah.  No.  We both __ we said, "Well,
 
        6  we'll just do it next time."  And, you know, at that
 
        7  point, it was kind of an idea, and, you know, everything
 
        8  being equal and Don feeling okay, we probably would have
 
        9  just done it.  But it was just kind of more important
 
       10  that we spend time with Don.
 
       11      Q.    All right.  So the reason, then, for coming up
 
       12  was to see if the presence of Debbie and Alyssa would
 
       13  pick up his spirits.
 
       14      A.    I would say half of it, yeah, and part of it
 
       15  at that point was just __ it was a break, again, for Deb
 
       16  in a way, I mean, even a couple days of having some
 
       17  extra help, you know.
 
       18      Q.    I guess where I'm having the question is, if
 
       19  it were the weekend, you would be available to help Deb
 
       20  as well.
 
       21      A.    Oh, yeah.  No.  You're right, yeah.  But, I
 
       22  mean, that's like two days.  We're both cleaning the
 
       23  house.  Down here, she at least can take a break, she
 
       24  doesn't have to worry about cleaning the house.  Do you
 
       25  know what __ I'm not probably __

 

 
                                                              105

 
        1      Q.    No.  I know what you're saying.
 
        2      A.    You know, in a house when you got a baby, you
 
        3  know, there is always something to do.  And I guess we
 
        4  kind of looked at it as if she could get away, it was
 
        5  just nice for everybody.  It wasn't specifically to say,
 
        6  "Oh.  Well, Don is feeling bad.  Let's cart everybody
 
        7  down."  In fact, that was probably lesser of it than
 
        8  just, if she was down here and I could sneak away, we
 
        9  might get a night, gave her a break, and then we were
 
       10  talking maybe the weekend and a couple days or something
 
       11  like that and I would meet them in Sheridan and pick
 
       12  them up.  That was only an hour_and_a_half drive for me,
 
       13  really, for both of us.  And so it was kind of a
 
       14  tentative thing, but I would say it was more a way to __
 
       15  I mean, I'm not splitting hairs.  It just wasn't,
 
       16  though, because Don was feeling bad.  That was like a
 
       17  side benefit.  And then when Deb got down here and,
 
       18  obviously, spent time with Don, she was concerned about
 
       19  him.  And so was I.  And then maybe at that point, it
 
       20  was like, well, maybe since I'm not feeling good, maybe
 
       21  I'll stay a little longer.  Then it became more like,
 
       22  well, you know, it will help Don out.  And it was
 
       23  helping him out.  I mean, he seemed to be doing fine,
 
       24  for him, you know.  I mean, he was just, you know __ he
 
       25  was just like I knew Don when he was just depressed, you

 

 
                                                              106

 
        1  know, just __
 
        2      Q.    Well, when you met at Sheridan, what was the
 
        3  plan for how long Deb was going to be there?
 
        4      A.    We left it completely up in the air, because
 
        5  we were going to wait.  Either way, it would only be
 
        6  like an hour and a half for me to go pick her up.  And
 
        7  so, we thought maybe we could salvage plans middle of
 
        8  the week.  If nothing else, Deb would get a break and I
 
        9  could come pick them up in the evening in Sheridan and
 
       10  still work, if I could maybe get away, maybe come down.
 
       11  But really, the intention at that point was not to have
 
       12  her stay a whole week.
 
       13      Q.    Okay.  And so, the reason that you didn't go
 
       14  with her on this particular trip was because you felt
 
       15  you needed to work to make sure that you had the
 
       16  income.  Is that right?
 
       17      A.    Yeah.
 
       18      Q.    And you didn't want to take vacation days?
 
       19      A.    Well, I mean, I had taken so many when Alyssa
 
       20  was born.  And my boss would have let me go for a week
 
       21  if I wanted.  I just didn't feel like it was fair.
 
       22            I'm not some __ you know, I would have taken
 
       23  days, but, you know, I had taken so many with taking
 
       24  Alyssa __ we took Alyssa to appointments together all
 
       25  the time, and when Deb was pregnant, we went to every

 

 
                                                              107

 
        1  single appointment together.  So my boss was more than
 
        2  fair with me, I mean, more than, more than fair.  And at
 
        3  that point I would have been taking advantage of __ to
 
        4  take advantage of his generosity anymore at that point
 
        5  was starting to kind of be a problem if __ he would have
 
        6  just said, "Yeah," you know.  I mean, he's that kind of
 
        7  guy.  And if I said, "Hell, I'm going to go for a week,"
 
        8  he would have just said, "Yeah.  Go for a week.  You
 
        9  need time with your" __ you know.  So I felt I was
 
       10  more __ I didn't want to have there be a problem with me
 
       11  taking just time off indiscriminately, and there was
 
       12  responsibilities there as well also as well as my
 
       13  family.  You know, I had to split that balance, I
 
       14  guess.
 
       15      Q.    Did Alyssa have any problems after birth in
 
       16  terms of development?
 
       17      A.    No.  She was a healthy kid.  She put on weight
 
       18  slowly.  She was like in the top percentile for length.
 
       19  She was 21 inches when she was born.  She was a very
 
       20  tall child.  And we had the problem __ we.  Deb was
 
       21  breast_feeding and she wasn't putting weight on as
 
       22  quickly as they would have liked.  And that was the only
 
       23  thing.  And she had a hard time sleeping.  Most of it
 
       24  was the fact that Deb and I would sit there and bother
 
       25  her all the time, you know, and she wasn't getting

 

 
                                                              108

 
        1  enough to eat, I don't think, to really make her
 
        2  satisfied.  She was getting enough to be okay with the
 
        3  breast_feeding.  Boy, she would scream.  We were getting
 
        4  no sleep.  And that was the only __
 
        5      Q.    Okay.  And the pregnancy, you said, went a lot
 
        6  more normally than you anticipated.
 
        7      A.    Yeah.  Yeah.
 
        8      Q.    Okay.  And this was the first time you and Deb
 
        9  had been separated?
 
       10      A.    For this length of time, yeah.  I mean, I had
 
       11  gone on a business trip to Salt Lake the year prior and
 
       12  I spent two nights.  But it was the most for that part
 
       13  other than when she first came down for the summer.
 
       14  Since we were married, though, that was definitely
 
       15  the __ I had only known Deb a semester when she came
 
       16  down here.  So, you know __
 
       17      Q.    Okay.  And then were you talking to Deb on a
 
       18  daily basis after you dropped them off in Sheridan?
 
       19      A.    Yeah, once, twice a day.
 
       20      Q.    And how did Don appear to you when you saw him
 
       21  the first time in Sheridan?
 
       22      A.    He seemed pretty good, actually.  I knew he
 
       23  was down just because he was a lot more quiet than he
 
       24  usually was.  He was a little more animated, but he was
 
       25  doing all right.  And actually, you know, it wasn't

 

 
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        1  until the next weekend where he decided that he wanted
 
        2  to maybe go see somebody that there was a noticeable __
 
        3  you know, like he just __ he thought that it had gone
 
        4  too long for him feeling that way.
 
        5            So he wanted to either talk to somebody or do
 
        6  what he had done before to kind of help himself out of
 
        7  it.  And even then he wasn't doing that bad.  I mean, we
 
        8  would sit there and just talk.  The only difference was
 
        9  he didn't really like to go outside.  And he just __
 
       10  really, the conversations that we had centered around
 
       11  Gerald, his brother, and how he wished that when he was
 
       12  younger, that he could have spent more time with his
 
       13  family.  And he had felt kind of guilty about that.
 
       14            He said, you know __ I'm paraphrasing,
 
       15  obviously.  But, I mean, it was more like, you know,
 
       16  well, I wish I could have spent more time with my
 
       17  family.  I was out in the oil field working 14_, 16_hour
 
       18  days.  I mean, this guy worked his ass off supporting
 
       19  his family.  And he just would __ he was always thankful
 
       20  that we were there, you know.
 
       21      Q.    So he talked to you about the loss of his
 
       22  brother who died from leukemia.  Right?
 
       23      A.    Yeah.
 
       24      Q.    And he talked to you about it?
 
       25      A.    Roger is his name.  I knew it would eventually

 

 
                                                              110

 
        1  come.  I couldn't remember it earlier.
 
        2      Q.    Thank you.  And __
 
        3      A.    I'm sorry.  I didn't mean to interrupt you.
 
        4      Q.    That's all right.  And he talked about his
 
        5  father_in_law.
 
        6      A.    Yeah.
 
        7      Q.    What else did he talk about, then, the second
 
        8  weekend?
 
        9      A.    Alyssa, how tough it was financially for
 
       10  young __ the big joke was, it's too bad, you know __ it
 
       11  wasn't even a joke.  It was just like we would sit there
 
       12  and go, you know, when you're young like this and you
 
       13  want to spend all your time with your child, you know,
 
       14  and you got to work, it's the time of your life when you
 
       15  have to work the most.  It was kind of a joke, like,
 
       16  isn't that the way it works, you should retire when the
 
       17  kids are little and then you got to work when you're
 
       18  older.
 
       19            It was normal conversation for Don and I, you
 
       20  know.  I mean, we sat there, and, you know, I enjoyed
 
       21  talking to him and especially when he was down.  It
 
       22  seemed like it helped.  And it seemed like I was more of
 
       23  a sound board.  He just would talk about just about
 
       24  everything, you know, and how work was doing.  He
 
       25  explained the oil __ I knew nothing about the oil field,

 

 
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        1  really.  Everything I told you earlier was from Don, you
 
        2  know.  I just took an interest in him.  You know, I
 
        3  found him __ I enjoyed his company, and I would just ask
 
        4  him about stupid stuff, you know.
 
        5      Q.    Well, when during the week did you and Deb
 
        6  decide that she should stay there a little bit longer?
 
        7      A.    That was Sunday when I was going home.  And
 
        8  Deb and I took a drive __ I'm sorry.  During the week,
 
        9  you mean?
 
       10      Q.    Yeah.  I'm sorry.  Between the first week and
 
       11  the second week.
 
       12      A.    Oh, okay.
 
       13      Q.    Because, as I understood your testimony, she
 
       14  was going to stay somewhere till __
 
       15      A.    Oh, I'm sorry.
 
       16      Q.    __ midweek of that first week.
 
       17      A.    The weekend, yeah.  I would say like Tuesday.
 
       18      Q.    Could I stop you for a second?
 
       19      A.    Sure.
 
       20      Q.    We have got to make sure you don't talk at the
 
       21  same time I talk, because, even though we can understand
 
       22  each other, it's impossible for him.
 
       23      A.    Okay.
 
       24      Q.    So, I'll try to be __
 
       25      A.    Oh, I'm sorry.

 

 
                                                              112

 
        1      Q.    __ good at it.  And try and let me finish a
 
        2  question.
 
        3            So, as I understand it, between the Sheridan
 
        4  weekend and the weekend that you came to visit, you must
 
        5  have had some conversation about Deb extending a little
 
        6  bit longer.
 
        7      A.    Yeah.
 
        8      Q.    Is that right?
 
        9      A.    Yeah.
 
       10      Q.    Tell me how that occurred.
 
       11      A.    We just __ it was real simple.  We just __ you
 
       12  know, I don't remember the exact day.  Say sometime
 
       13  around Tuesday, because earlier in the week, maybe
 
       14  Wednesday, she just was like, "Well, would you mind just
 
       15  coming down this week?"
 
       16            At that point, whenever I talked to her, it
 
       17  was long enough in the week where we just thought, well,
 
       18  you might as well stay down there until I can come down
 
       19  for the weekend and I'll pick you up and we'll just come
 
       20  back home.  And that's how it got extended to the next
 
       21  weekend.
 
       22            It wasn't like a big thing like __ it was more
 
       23  like half the week was gone or Tuesday or Wednesday and
 
       24  Deb just thought, you know, well, it seems to be helping
 
       25  having us down here, maybe why don't you come down for

 

 
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        1  the weekend and stay and then we'll go home.  And I said
 
        2  yeah.  It was that __ it wasn't like a big thing.
 
        3      Q.    Okay.  And did she say Don was doing better or
 
        4  worse than normal?
 
        5      A.    He was doing about the same, with the
 
        6  exception that it seemed like he was happier to see Deb
 
        7  and Alyssa.  It seemed to perk him up a little bit.  But
 
        8  he was still kind of like on middle C, just kind of
 
        9  humming along, not really doing much better but not
 
       10  doing any worse.
 
       11      Q.    And what is middle C for him?
 
       12      A.    He just would kind of watch TV and read.  And
 
       13  I think at that point he decided to take a break from
 
       14  work.  He thought that if he could just stay home and
 
       15  kind of just __ one of the psychiatrists he talked to
 
       16  before had given him breathing exercises and he was
 
       17  having a hard time sleeping.  So he was taking a nap, I
 
       18  think, during the day a little bit and reading, but not
 
       19  like Don feeling really good, which would be out in the
 
       20  yard, shoveling right away, getting the paper, talking
 
       21  about what's in the news, just more __ I don't know how
 
       22  to describe it __ just more subdued, I guess.
 
       23      Q.    All right.  And that first week, he hadn't
 
       24  seen any doctor.  Right?
 
       25      A.    No.

 

 
                                                              114

 
        1      Q.    For his depression.
 
        2      A.    Right.  No.
 
        3      Q.    So you came down when?
 
        4      A.    I came down __ I don't remember if it was
 
        5  Friday night or Saturday morning.
 
        6      Q.    And then you spent how many nights there?
 
        7      A.    Till Sunday.
 
        8      Q.    And then why did Deb and Alyssa not come back?
 
        9      A.    At that point, she wasn't feeling good.  Don
 
       10  was still kind of where he was and Deb really wasn't
 
       11  feeling good.  And she had started not to feel good __
 
       12  after we decided __ I'm sorry.  Let me back up.
 
       13            After we had decided for her to stay there
 
       14  through that first __ after we took them to Sheridan
 
       15  that first weekend, about halfway through, she started
 
       16  feeling kind of crummy.  And by like Friday or Saturday,
 
       17  she really was starting to feel bad.  And so, when I got
 
       18  down there, she had had, I think it was, a sinus or a
 
       19  strep or the beginnings of it.  And so, there was no
 
       20  way.  She just said, "Look, I definitely just want to
 
       21  stay."  And I wanted them to come back.
 
       22            I said, "Well, it would be nice if you guys
 
       23  come back."  And when we talked about it, we thought,
 
       24  you know, it makes more sense that she stay here.  When
 
       25  Deb starts to feel better, then she can come back up,

 

 
                                                              115

 
        1  because at that point then she did need some more help
 
        2  and we didn't have anybody in Billings that we trusted
 
        3  where Deb could just take a nap and not worry about it.
 
        4      Q.    Well, was it Don's condition and the
 
        5  improvement through Deb's presence or the fact that she
 
        6  was getting a cold that had her extend to the __
 
        7      A.    At that point, it was more that __ Don was
 
        8  kind of about the same.  He had realized that __ at that
 
        9  point that he wanted to maybe get some help to kind of
 
       10  help him kind of kick start himself, but Deb was feeling
 
       11  worse.  That was through that weekend.  And then the
 
       12  plans were that Don was going to go see somebody.  Deb
 
       13  was going to stay until she started feeling better.  And
 
       14  then she felt rotten.  And I don't know if it was Monday
 
       15  or Tuesday that she went to see Dr. Patel and said she
 
       16  had strep or a sinus infection or __ so he put her on
 
       17  antibiotics.  And I'm like, you just stay because there
 
       18  is not __ I mean, she didn't feel like traveling.
 
       19            I mean, at that point, it was just she needed
 
       20  to stay until __ I didn't want Alyssa in case she was
 
       21  getting sick, and she wasn't at that point, but I didn't
 
       22  want a big caravan of cars going around, you know, in
 
       23  February with my wife being pretty sick.
 
       24            So, it was just a no_brainer that they just
 
       25  stay.  And at that point it was just strictly that she

 

 
                                                              116

 
        1  was not feeling good.  And it was accepted that Don was
 
        2  going to go see somebody and get help, and then that
 
        3  was, you know __
 
        4      Q.    Had Debbie then seen Dr. Patel for her
 
        5  condition __
 
        6      A.    Yeah.
 
        7      Q.    __ that first week?
 
        8      A.    Yeah.  I don't know if it was Monday or
 
        9  Tuesday or __ it was beginning of the week.
 
       10      Q.    That's the Monday or Tuesday __
 
       11      A.    __ after __
 
       12      Q.    __ after you let them off.
 
       13      A.    Yeah.
 
       14      Q.    And did Alyssa get sick?
 
       15      A.    Alyssa stayed okay.  She was having a little
 
       16  bit of hard time sleeping.  So Deb wasn't sure if she
 
       17  was getting sick or not.  But, for the most part, she
 
       18  was healthy.  She wasn't __
 
       19      Q.    And during the weekend, who had the discussion
 
       20  about Don going to see somebody to see if he could get a
 
       21  little extra help?
 
       22      A.    Don and Rita and we all were talking about
 
       23  it.  We just felt that it was, you know __
 
       24      Q.    Did Rita suggest that that would be a good
 
       25  idea?

 

 
                                                              117

 
        1      A.    She actually did, I think.
 
        2      Q.    So it came from Rita rather __
 
        3      A.    I think she did.
 
        4      Q.    __ than Don?
 
        5      A.    Actually, I don't __ I don't know.  Rita was
 
        6  very proactive.  Actually, both of them were.  And I
 
        7  think maybe, yeah, Rita did say something like, "Maybe
 
        8  you should go talk to somebody."
 
        9      Q.    Did he have a hard time with the concept of
 
       10  seeing a psychiatrist?
 
       11      A.    I think for that type of guy, yeah.  It was
 
       12  even hard for me, I guess, because there is that
 
       13  connotation with going to somebody, and I think
 
       14  especially for kind of a guy like Don.  You know, he's
 
       15  kind of a good old boy.  He was comfortable telling the
 
       16  people he worked for that he was having a problem with
 
       17  depression, though.  I mean, he was pretty up front with
 
       18  the people that mattered, I think.
 
       19            He was working for Wellstar at that point, and
 
       20  they just __ he did such a good job, they just said,
 
       21  "Look, you take whatever time you need because we know
 
       22  you'll come back.  We know you'll do a good job."  And I
 
       23  think that's when he first started taking the time off.
 
       24  And then that weekend before everything happened is when
 
       25  he decided he should probably go see somebody, because

 

 
                                                              118

 
        1  he felt like it was just taking too long for him to kind
 
        2  of get himself pulled out.
 
        3      Q.    Did Deb suggest to him that it might be a good
 
        4  idea for him to see somebody?
 
        5      A.    No.  She would never do that.
 
        6      Q.    Did you?
 
        7      A.    I think he mentioned it.  And I said, you
 
        8  know, "It might be a good idea to go see somebody."  I
 
        9  said, "You know, we're your family.  You tell us
 
       10  basically everything, but, you know, there is __
 
       11  sometimes it's nice to have a" __ I mean, I was just
 
       12  kind __ I just was chatting and making him feel more
 
       13  comfortable with it, you know.  I didn't know whether it
 
       14  was better or not.  I just wanted him to feel more
 
       15  comfortable with it.
 
       16      Q.    But Rita did suggest that he go see a
 
       17  psychiatrist?
 
       18      A.    I think more __ yeah.  But it wasn't like,
 
       19  "Don, you know, that's it.  You got to go see
 
       20  somebody."  It was more like, "Well, you know, maybe we
 
       21  need to do something else since you have been staying
 
       22  home, not working, reading.  You know, maybe you need to
 
       23  think about something else."  It was more in that tone
 
       24  more than like, "Well, you know, this is going to
 
       25  stop."  It was very supportive.  And she __ you know,

 

 
                                                              119

 
        1  she had interests at work, too.  You know, I mean, they
 
        2  were both __ they were both working, basically, full
 
        3  time, and __ but she handled it very well with him.  I
 
        4  mean, it was more just, you know, her husband wasn't
 
        5  feeling good and she needed to go, you know __ she __ he
 
        6  probably should think about going.  And Don
 
        7  immediately __ from what I could tell, it was no
 
        8  problem.  He just __ that was like, yeah, well, maybe I
 
        9  should.
 
       10                  MR. VICKERY:  Can I just have a question
 
       11  or comment?  Because I'm afraid you two have a
 
       12  disconnect.  Were you talking about a psychiatrist or
 
       13  just going to somebody to get something?  Chuck used the
 
       14  word psychiatrist.  Of course, Patel is not a
 
       15  psychiatrist.
 
       16                  MR. PREUSS:  No.  I know that.
 
       17                  THE DEPONENT:  Yeah.
 
       18                  MR. PREUSS:  No.  As far as I'm
 
       19  concerned, I am on the right wavelength.
 
       20                  THE DEPONENT:  Right.  He just __
 
       21                  MR. PREUSS:  He needed to see somebody
 
       22  is what he's saying.
 
       23                  THE DEPONENT:  Yeah, somebody, yeah.
 
       24                  MR. PREUSS:  It wasn't a psychiatrist.
 
       25  The testimony, as I understood it, was that, yeah, he

 

 
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        1  didn't particularly want to go see a psychiatrist
 
        2  because there was a connotation associated with it
 
        3  and __
 
        4                  THE DEPONENT:  Well, and the __ I mean,
 
        5  the reason that __ I think he probably would have gone
 
        6  straight to a psychiatrist, but there is two reasons.  I
 
        7  think that Don felt like his __ this is me.  Since I
 
        8  knew Don pretty well, these are the two reasons that I
 
        9  think he did.  One is the guy he did go see left, guy he
 
       10  really liked.  And the guy treated Don with a lot of
 
       11  respect.  And not that psychiatrists don't, but he felt
 
       12  comfortable with him.  So that guy was gone.
 
       13      Q.    (BY MR. PREUSS)  Is that Dr. Buchanan?
 
       14      A.    I think it was, yeah.  I'm not sure.  I think
 
       15  it must have been.
 
       16            And the second one is that some of the
 
       17  medicine that he had been put on a long time ago when
 
       18  this first started, when he first retired, it was some
 
       19  low dosage, some medicine that he was comfortable with.
 
       20  And, see, they tried to put him on something else, from
 
       21  what I understood, at that point.
 
       22      Q.    Who did?
 
       23      A.    A psychiatrist or it may have been a general
 
       24  practitioner.  But it didn't __ he didn't react well to
 
       25  it.  So, he didn't want to take that one.  He wanted to

 

 
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        1  go back and get whatever he was taking before.
 
        2            So, whoever he went to go see, I mean, whoever
 
        3  had his medical record, I think, you know, since there
 
        4  was psychiatrists that he wasn't comfortable with,
 
        5  wasn't in town anymore is probably why he didn't go see
 
        6  a psychiatrist more so than __ you know, I think for Don
 
        7  it took the right guy.  You know, he had to feel
 
        8  comfortable with him in order for him to talk to him.
 
        9  And Don definitely had likes and dislikes in people.
 
       10  And he didn't like __ he wasn't going to just sit there
 
       11  and open up.  So it was useless for him to go see a
 
       12  psychiatrist when he wasn't going to be comfortable,
 
       13  anyway.
 
       14      Q.    Did he like Dr. Patel?
 
       15      A.    I didn't hear either way.  I __ you know.
 
       16      Q.    To your knowledge, did he open up with Dr.
 
       17  Patel?
 
       18      A.    No.  From what I understood, he went to Patel
 
       19  and said, "I feel down."  And Patel didn't do anything
 
       20  but write a prescription.  That was it.
 
       21      Q.    Where did you get that understanding?
 
       22      A.    From Rita and Don.  They just said, "We went
 
       23  in there and, you know, we sat in there for a while."
 
       24  And so I guess __ I don't know if there was anything
 
       25  said or not.  But I got the impression from them that it

 

 
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        1  was just like they went in and they were out.
 
        2      Q.    So did you talk to Don on the phone then?
 
        3      A.    I did a couple times, yeah.
 
        4      Q.    After he saw Dr. Patel?
 
        5      A.    No.  I didn't talk to him __ I think I did
 
        6  talk to him once and __ excuse me.  No, I didn't,
 
        7  because I don't think he saw Dr. Patel until Tuesday.
 
        8      Q.    Tuesday as in after the weekend that you
 
        9  visited.
 
       10      A.    Right.  I think __ and I talked to Don the
 
       11  Monday or Tuesday before he went to the doctor.
 
       12  Whatever day it was before he went to the doctor was the
 
       13  last time I talked to him, and it was before he even
 
       14  went or it was right as he got back.  And it was a
 
       15  simple conversation.  It was just like:  How are you
 
       16  doing?  Are you feeling okay?  Well, that's good.  How
 
       17  is the weather?
 
       18      Q.    So how did you get the understanding that Dr.
 
       19  Patel just wrote scrip down?
 
       20      A.    When I talked to Deb, I said, "Well, did he
 
       21  go?" because I didn't realize he just went to Patel.
 
       22            And she just said, "Well, they went in."  And
 
       23  Don and Rita had talked to Deb and Deb had talked to
 
       24  me.  She kind of filled me in on what was going on.  I
 
       25  mean, it was nothing insidious.  It was just like, well,

 

 
                                                              123

 
        1  he just went in.  It wasn't like a session.  He just
 
        2  went in __ I'm not trying to make any reference to Dr.
 
        3  Patel.  I'm saying it was just in and out.  Whatever
 
        4  took place, I don't know, but Deb said it was quick.
 
        5  They were expecting it to take a lot longer and they did
 
        6  just go in and out.  And that's the extent of what I got
 
        7  from Deb.
 
        8      Q.    From that, you concluded that there wasn't
 
        9  enough time for him for open up and bare his soul, if
 
       10  you will.
 
       11      A.    I don't think so.  I mean, he was __ either
 
       12  that or he was so convinced that this was just __ I
 
       13  mean, I don't know.  Actually, I don't know.  I'm
 
       14  sorry.
 
       15      Q.    Was __ why did Rita go with him?
 
       16      A.    They did everything together.  I mean, she
 
       17  wanted to go support him, number one, and, number two,
 
       18  she wanted to make sure that he was getting __ she
 
       19  understood what was going to take place.  She always
 
       20  went to __ I mean, Deb and I did the same thing.  You
 
       21  know, all of her OB/GYN obstetric appointments, I went
 
       22  to every single one.  It was just support, I think.
 
       23      Q.    Had she __ had Rita always gone with Don
 
       24  whenever he went to see a doctor?
 
       25      A.    I think if it was a medical or something

 

 
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        1  related to the __ you know, to a mental or psychiatric,
 
        2  I think, yeah, she did go, to my knowledge.  I don't
 
        3  know for sure.  It wasn't unlike Rita to __ I mean, Rita
 
        4  was one of these gals that if she loved you and you were
 
        5  sick, she was going to go buy a book on depression, she
 
        6  was going to go buy the right tapes, music for you to
 
        7  listen to, she was going to go get the right kind of
 
        8  books.  I mean, this is the type of woman she was.
 
        9            So it doesn't surprise me that she went,
 
       10  unless Don was, you know, "Oh, no, I'll be fine," which
 
       11  I don't think he did either.  I think he liked having
 
       12  her there.  Really, they did everything together.
 
       13      Q.    Who called the shots on family decision_
 
       14  making?
 
       15      A.    I would say more Don, but Rita definitely had
 
       16  a hand in __ Rita got what Rita wanted.  And that was
 
       17  not unlike how Deb and I were set up.
 
       18            Pretty much Deb handled the finances, and I
 
       19  think Rita handled the finances, the house books, not
 
       20  that formally, but you know what I mean.  Like Don gets
 
       21  the paycheck and she makes the certain payments to the
 
       22  right places.
 
       23            It was possibly more so Don.  Don was
 
       24  definitely __ I mean, the key with Don was it was just
 
       25  understanding that he knew what he liked and if he felt

 

 
                                                              125

 
        1  very strongly about something, you needed to give him a
 
        2  good reason, for whatever it was.  I'm like that because
 
        3  my grandfather is like that.
 
        4      Q.    Was he a controlling type?
 
        5      A.    I would say a little bit, I think, you know,
 
        6  honestly.
 
        7      Q.    With respect to Rita?
 
        8      A.    Rita definitely did what she wanted.  I don't
 
        9  think there was really __ I mean __
 
       10      Q.    How about with Debbie?
 
       11      A.    I think not really.  He had a problem with us
 
       12  living together, but that was more so because he was
 
       13  Catholic.  But other than that, we never had any big
 
       14  battles of wills or anything.  He respected my
 
       15  relationship with Deb and I respected that she was his
 
       16  daughter and that __ I think we both didn't step on each
 
       17  other's toes.  There was times where he would give her
 
       18  advice on things and I would keep out of it, and there
 
       19  is times when we would make decisions and he would keep
 
       20  out of it.
 
       21            Again, it's not some idyllic thing where there
 
       22  is this perfect balance.  I mean, there is times like __
 
       23  you know, like any relationship, there was times when,
 
       24  you know, Deb would get mad at her dad because he would
 
       25  say, "Well, you know __ well, if you go to school, make

 

 
                                                              126

 
        1  sure you" __ you know, I mean, I'm not __ I just don't
 
        2  want you thinking, oh, it's a perfect balance all the
 
        3  time.  It wasn't, but, you know, it worked, for the most
 
        4  part.  There was never really any __ we never had any of
 
        5  those things like I've had friends that sit there and
 
        6  go, "I hate my mother_in_law."  I didn't.  I thought of
 
        7  her like a mother.  Or daughters who have a hard time
 
        8  with their fathers.  Well, it wasn't like that.  They
 
        9  were very close.
 
       10      Q.    What about Don?  Did you regard him as a
 
       11  father?
 
       12      A.    Oh, yeah.  He treated me very well.
 
       13      Q.    Did you ever have arguments with him?
 
       14      A.    No.
 
       15      Q.    Ever have any disagreements as to what was
 
       16  best for Debbie?
 
       17      A.    No.  He honestly kept out of our business.  He
 
       18  helped us with things.  He was a very generous person.
 
       19  And I think he __ Gerald was hard on Rita and Don when
 
       20  they first got married.  Gerald was a real old school
 
       21  oil field guy, and he wanted his daughter to marry
 
       22  somebody, you know, a lawyer, doctor, something like
 
       23  that.  And he was hard on them.  And he told me, he said
 
       24  you know, "It's your guys' life.  I not going to" __ you
 
       25  know, they had reconciled that together a long time

 

 
                                                              127

 
        1  ago.  But I think him learning from that, he realized
 
        2  it's important that, you know, that Deb and I had our
 
        3  room.  And I had a lot of respect for him because he
 
        4  did.
 
        5            He made us, you know __ or he made it so that
 
        6  we could make our own mistakes.  But he put his two
 
        7  cents in.  I'm not saying he wouldn't say, "Well, I
 
        8  think you guys should do this," or, "Moving to Denver
 
        9  might be a bad idea.  Have you thought about it?"  But
 
       10  once we made a decision, he supported it, even living
 
       11  together.  He came around after two weeks.  He was not
 
       12  happy at first.  And I don't blame him.  If I had a
 
       13  daughter, I sure as hell wouldn't want some guy shacking
 
       14  up with my daughter.  I mean, I'm not being crude.  It's
 
       15  just, you know __ I think I had a little more
 
       16  understanding about how he felt, both of them.
 
       17      Q.    Was he hard on you initially before he
 
       18  accepted you?
 
       19      A.    No.  He was nice the __ the only time we had
 
       20  any problem was when we were living together, and it
 
       21  wasn't even like he was sitting there saying, "You guys
 
       22  are horrible," it was just he was disappointed in us
 
       23  because of his faith.
 
       24      Q.    You mean living together __
 
       25      A.    Right.

 

 
                                                              128

 
        1      Q.    __ the two of you as opposed to when you were
 
        2  living in his house.
 
        3      A.    Right.  And he had accepted that that was our
 
        4  decision.  And when we came to live with him, I just
 
        5  felt __ we both felt like, out of respect for him, that
 
        6  we at least adhered to how his rules in his house were.
 
        7  He was doing us a favor.  We didn't have much money.  We
 
        8  were able to save up for the wedding while we were
 
        9  there.  And part of that was that his rules in his house
 
       10  was that he didn't want his unmarried daughter and me
 
       11  staying in the same room.  And we both agreed that that
 
       12  was fine.  And it was an unspoken thing, because he had
 
       13  a problem with us living together, and Deb really didn't
 
       14  want to have it be uncomfortable there, and neither did
 
       15  I.  I mean, I didn't want to __ I didn't want to have
 
       16  something down the road where they go, "Oh, you guys
 
       17  just move in" __ you know what I mean, I didn't want to
 
       18  have me step on his toes and say, well __ I didn't want
 
       19  to jeopardize any relationship with him over a slap in
 
       20  the face like that.
 
       21            My relationship with Deb meant too much to
 
       22  have it be hard with her parents.  And I think all of us
 
       23  understood that Deb was the centerpiece of this thing,
 
       24  at least in this family, and all of us needed to kind of
 
       25  behave.  You know, I mean we all treated __

 

 
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        1                  (Discussion off the record.)
 
        2      Q.    All right.  Was Don off of work at all between
 
        3  the time you dropped Deb off at Sheridan and the time
 
        4  that you visited the next weekend?
 
        5      A.    I honestly don't remember.  I think he was
 
        6  towards the end of the week, but that's a guess.
 
        7      Q.    Did you notice any difference in Don's
 
        8  behavior between the time you dropped Deb off the first
 
        9  weekend at Sheridan and the time that you visited at the
 
       10  end of the week?
 
       11      A.    Not really, no.  I think it was fairly
 
       12  consistent.  He was definitely down but not completely
 
       13  down, not __
 
       14      Q.    Did you discuss that weekend whether or not he
 
       15  needed to stop working, from his perspective?
 
       16      A.    In Sheridan __
 
       17      Q.    No.  I'm talking about the weekend you __
 
       18      A.    I think he had already taken a break from
 
       19  work.  And I don't __ the work I just assumed was being
 
       20  taken care of.  So, you know, we didn't get into that
 
       21  part, actually.
 
       22      Q.    When you were there and visiting that weekend,
 
       23  did you know that he had an appointment scheduled with
 
       24  Dr. Patel?
 
       25      A.    I didn't know it was with Patel, but I knew __

 

 
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        1  my understanding was he was going to make it with
 
        2  somebody.  And I didn't really pursue who it was.  I
 
        3  just felt better knowing that he was there __ they were
 
        4  both getting kind of proactive.
 
        5      Q.    Did you have an understanding as to whether or
 
        6  not it was a family practitioner as opposed to a
 
        7  psychiatrist that he was planning to see?
 
        8      A.    I'm sorry.  Did I have an understanding of
 
        9  that?
 
       10      Q.    Yeah, at the time.
 
       11      A.    No, I didn't know __
 
       12      Q.    Just a doctor.
 
       13      A.    I just knew a doctor, yeah.
 
       14      Q.    And did you talk to Debbie every night before
 
       15  you came down to Gillette __
 
       16      A.    Yeah.
 
       17      Q.    __ on that Friday?
 
       18      A.    Yeah.
 
       19      Q.    And so the first night you would have talked
 
       20  to her would have been that Monday.  Right?
 
       21      A.    Yeah.
 
       22      Q.    All right.  And he was scheduled to see the
 
       23  doctor the next day.  Is that right?
 
       24      A.    It's my recollection, yeah.  It's been three
 
       25  years.  I just __ it was sometime __

 

 
                                                              131

 
        1      Q.    I don't want to put words in your mouth.  So
 
        2  if your recollection __
 
        3      A.    It was definitely in the beginning of the
 
        4  week.  I'm just not saying like, well, Monday at eight I
 
        5  knew there was __ I mean, I knew it was being taken care
 
        6  of Monday or Tuesday.
 
        7      Q.    Did Debbie gave you any indication between the
 
        8  time you last saw her on Sunday and the time that Don
 
        9  was going to see the doctor that his condition changed
 
       10  at all?
 
       11      A.    No.  I was more worried about Deb at that
 
       12  point, too, because she wasn't feeling good.
 
       13      Q.    She had a severe cold or a sinus?
 
       14      A.    Sinus or strep is what she had, sinus.  I
 
       15  think they said strep.  I don't remember, though.
 
       16      Q.    Did she see a doctor?
 
       17      A.    She saw Patel.
 
       18      Q.    And when did she see Patel?
 
       19      A.    Monday or Tuesday.
 
       20      Q.    Did she go to see Patel the same time that
 
       21  Rita and Don did?
 
       22      A.    Huh_uh, no.  It was a different time.
 
       23      Q.    And did Dr. Patel put her on any medications?
 
       24      A.    Put her on some type of like Amoxycillin or
 
       25  one __

 

 
                                                              132

 
        1      Q.    An antibiotic?
 
        2      A.    Like an antibiotic, yeah.
 
        3      Q.    Any other medication?
 
        4      A.    No.  I think she had taken NyQuil or something
 
        5  before, but __ you mean like prescription or just
 
        6  anything?  Other than for a headache, maybe she took
 
        7  Advil, which is what she had taken if she had a
 
        8  headache, or maybe NyQuil if she was having a hard time
 
        9  sleeping.  That's it.
 
       10      Q.    Sleeping because of her illness as opposed __
 
       11      A.    Right, yeah, just being stuffy or __
 
       12                  MR. GORMAN:  Can I interrupt real
 
       13  quick?
 
       14            Did Deb see Dr. Patel the Monday before you
 
       15  came down to spend the weekend after the Sheridan visit
 
       16  or following your __
 
       17                  THE DEPONENT:  It was the following
 
       18  week.
 
       19                  MR. GORMAN:  Okay.
 
       20                  MR. PREUSS:  That was my understanding.
 
       21                  THE DEPONENT:  Yeah.  That's correct.
 
       22      Q.    (BY MR. PREUSS)  You talked to Debbie then
 
       23  after Don had seen Dr. Schell __ I mean, had seen Dr.
 
       24  Patel?
 
       25      A.    Yeah.  And then I don't even know if I even

 

 
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        1  still understood it was Patel.  I just knew that he went
 
        2  to the doctor.
 
        3      Q.    Okay.  That's fine.  So __
 
        4      A.    Yeah.
 
        5      Q.    Okay.  After he had seen the doctor, what did
 
        6  Debbie tell you how her dad was doing?
 
        7      A.    There wasn't anything that she said that __
 
        8  that night, the night, whatever night it was that he
 
        9  went to the doctor, whatever night that was, there
 
       10  wasn't any real change at that point.
 
       11      Q.    Okay.  Then you talked to her the next night.
 
       12      A.    The following night.
 
       13      Q.    What was the nature of your conversation at
 
       14  that time?
 
       15      A.    It was __ I think it was kind of ambiguous,
 
       16  again, the same as the night before.  You know, one of
 
       17  those:  How is Alyssa?  How are you doing?  I love you.
 
       18  Miss you.  You know, how is your dad doing?  Oh, he's
 
       19  doing all right.  That's kind of what the conversation
 
       20  was.
 
       21      Q.    Okay.
 
       22      A.    I don't __ I'm not saying that's exact.  I'm
 
       23  just saying that, you know, one of those type of
 
       24  conversations where __ because she just wasn't feeling
 
       25  good, so we didn't sit there and chat like we usually

 

 
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        1  did.
 
        2      Q.    When did you make the plans for you to come
 
        3  down and pick her up and take her home that second week?
 
        4      A.    We knew that that following weekend, I would
 
        5  just, Monday when __ when she said she was going to the
 
        6  doctor, I just said to not worry about anything, you
 
        7  just stay there and I'll just come pick you up this
 
        8  weekend.
 
        9      Q.    Meaning Friday?
 
       10                  (Discussion off the record.)
 
       11      Q.    Meaning Friday that you were planning to pick
 
       12  them up.
 
       13      A.    Oh.  Yeah.  And we decided that __ I think at
 
       14  that point I was just going to bring them both back up
 
       15  for __ I was going to bring them back up to Billings
 
       16  Saturday instead of staying Saturday night, because Deb
 
       17  wanted to get back.  We just kind of wanted to get
 
       18  Alyssa back on her routine at home.  And that would have
 
       19  been like Monday or Tuesday.  And then __ because, I
 
       20  guess what I am getting at, if __ it's just been so
 
       21  long.  I think __ it was just accepted after that
 
       22  weekend that I would just come back the following
 
       23  weekend, because she wasn't doing good during the
 
       24  weekend and I knew it would probably be towards Thursday
 
       25  or Friday, and if she got better before then, I would

 

 
                                                              135

 
        1  probably come down and pick her up, but it looked like
 
        2  it was going to be one of those deals where Deb was
 
        3  pretty sick, you know, and __
 
        4      Q.    So you were going to come down Friday, spend
 
        5  the night Friday and then drive back?
 
        6      A.    Oh, yeah, if I could get off early, or, you
 
        7  know, try and come down earlier and maybe try to make it
 
        8  back.  But I just didn't feel comfortable driving with
 
        9  Alyssa in that time of year with our car.  I just __ you
 
       10  know, if it was at night, I guess I probably just, no
 
       11  matter what, would have stayed the night.
 
       12      Q.    So did you have any other phone calls?  We
 
       13  have been going through a couple nights there.  Did you
 
       14  have any other phone calls before you came down on that
 
       15  Friday?
 
       16      A.    Yeah.  Thursday night I talked to her again,
 
       17  and that's when I got the sense that things had kind of
 
       18  changed.  And she didn't say specifically anything.  To
 
       19  this day, I wish she would have, because she __ all she
 
       20  said was __ Don answered the phone.  I said, "Don, how
 
       21  are you doing?"
 
       22            He said, "Let me get her for you," or, "Here
 
       23  is" __ I don't remember what it was.  It was just like,
 
       24  "Here is the phone."
 
       25      Q.    That's something he didn't normally do?

 

 
                                                              136

 
        1      A.    No.
 
        2      Q.    He normally would chat with you for a bit?
 
        3      A.    A little bit, yeah.  And, well, maybe he's
 
        4  tired.  And Deb got on the phone.  And it wasn't
 
        5  anything specific like Don is having problems, but I
 
        6  think back now, and Deb just said, "Well, I'm glad
 
        7  you're coming down."  And that's all she said.
 
        8            And I guess now I think about it, you know, I
 
        9  said, "Well, how is your dad doing?"
 
       10            She said, "Oh."  And he was there, so she
 
       11  didn't say anything, I think is why we didn't talk about
 
       12  it.  She didn't want him to feel __ you know, I'm sure
 
       13  she just didn't want him to feel like we were sitting
 
       14  there chatting about him in front of him.  So I didn't
 
       15  get much more than that.  And she said, "Well, if I
 
       16  don't" __ she goes, "I need __ I think my period is
 
       17  starting and would you please bring down some stuff for
 
       18  me?"
 
       19            And I said, "Sure.  Would you call me in the
 
       20  morning and just remind me?" because I was doing
 
       21  something for work on the computer at home.  And I just
 
       22  said, "Well, remind me.  You know how I am."  And so
 
       23  that was the last time I talked to Deb.
 
       24      Q.    Well, at that time and not in retrospect, at
 
       25  that time, did you have any feeling that anything was

 

 
                                                              137

 
        1  untoward?
 
        2      A.    You know, I started feeling bad about it.  I
 
        3  was feeling a little uncomfortable, and I didn't know
 
        4  why.  So I don't know if it was because of the
 
        5  conversation or __ I was telling Andy earlier, I woke up
 
        6  that next morning __
 
        7      Q.    You're not supposed to tell me what you told
 
        8  him.
 
        9      A.    Oh.  I'm sorry.
 
       10                  MR. VICKERY:  It was something he's
 
       11  going to tell you anyway.
 
       12                  THE DEPONENT:  Yeah, conver __ yeah,
 
       13  this is something I told my mom, too.
 
       14      Q.    (BY MR. PREUSS)  That you can tell me.
 
       15      A.    Okay.  I woke up that next morning and I
 
       16  didn't feel good, I mean, not __ like a little kind of
 
       17  unsettled.  I felt __ I just didn't feel right.  And I'm
 
       18  not a very religious man and I don't know when they were
 
       19  killed exactly.  But, you know, from that morning on, I
 
       20  didn't feel good about what was going on because Deb
 
       21  didn't call.  And that next morning, this is Friday
 
       22  morning, they were already dead.  And __
 
       23      Q.    Well, did you get the feeling before you
 
       24  called or after you got no response to your call?
 
       25      A.    I didn't feel good when I went to bed that

 

 
                                                              138

 
        1  night.  So I don't know if that was just __ I don't
 
        2  know, because it definitely started before I even called
 
        3  down there that next morning, because I called when __
 
        4  from work, when I got to work, because Deb hadn't called
 
        5  and she didn't leave a message at work.  And I thought,
 
        6  maybe she slept in.  And it was already started __ I was
 
        7  supposed to __ I was going to work maybe till noon or
 
        8  one.  And I thought, maybe I'm just being neurotic.  I
 
        9  have no idea.  I didn't have any picture in my mind.  I
 
       10  just felt very unsettled and felt like I needed to get
 
       11  down here.  And __
 
       12      Q.    Did you feel unsettled after the conversation?
 
       13      A.    Yeah.  With Deb?
 
       14      Q.    Right.
 
       15      A.    Yeah.
 
       16      Q.    Can you put your hand on what you were feeling
 
       17  at that time, not in retrospect?
 
       18      A.    I don't know.  I mean, I just know I didn't
 
       19  feel like __ I obviously didn't think, you know, what
 
       20  happened was going to happen.  I just __ it was just Deb
 
       21  and I were very affectionate and it just seemed like she
 
       22  was like __ she was, "Well, I'll just be really, really
 
       23  glad when you come down here."  And she just sounded
 
       24  kind of tired, you know.  And I just __ I don't know.  I
 
       25  just got a feeling from her that things just weren't __

 

 
                                                              139

 
        1  you know, I don't know if she was scared or she didn't
 
        2  feel good about what was going on.  She didn't tell me;
 
        3  otherwise, I would have come down, you know.
 
        4      Q.    So you didn't have a sense as to why she said
 
        5  what she said, i.e., that she really was looking forward
 
        6  to seeing you or it would be good to see you.
 
        7      A.    Right.  And I just thought I was just being
 
        8  neurotic, I would just go to bed, I was just being
 
        9  stupid.
 
       10      Q.    Did you have any thought that it had anything
 
       11  to do with her dad?
 
       12      A.    No.  I just felt like something was amiss
 
       13  because of Deb.
 
       14      Q.    Did you talk to Rita at all during that week?
 
       15      A.    I think I talked to her one time where she
 
       16  answered the phone when I called one morning, I don't
 
       17  know, some point in time.
 
       18      Q.    Any information you recall was discussed
 
       19  between you two?
 
       20      A.    No.
 
       21      Q.    I'm not clear on the call the next morning
 
       22  that was to be made.  Was Debbie to call you __
 
       23      A.    Yes.
 
       24      Q.    __ to remind you?
 
       25      A.    I asked her if she would call me because I was

 

 
                                                              140

 
        1  working on the computer and I just __ I said, it's
 
        2  upstairs __ or it's in the other room.  And I said, "I'm
 
        3  just in the middle of this," because I was on line __
 
        4  either I was on line at the switch or I was doing
 
        5  something with work where I said, "If I forget tonight,
 
        6  would you please call me in the morning?"
 
        7            She's like, "No problem.  I'm" __ she said,
 
        8  "There is some other things I might need."
 
        9            I said, "Why don't you just tell me in the
 
       10  morning."
 
       11      Q.    She said okay?
 
       12      A.    Yeah.
 
       13      Q.    Did you call down there in the morning?
 
       14      A.    Yeah.  I called all day long.  I called in the
 
       15  morning.  I called in the afternoon.  I called when I
 
       16  stopped.
 
       17      Q.    You called at what time in the morning?
 
       18      A.    When I got to work, sometime after I got to
 
       19  work for a while, because I felt like she was still
 
       20  asleep.
 
       21      Q.    And you wanted to check on what you were
 
       22  supposed to bring down?
 
       23      A.    I had already grabbed it.  I had remembered.
 
       24  I just __ you know, I really missed her and half the
 
       25  time, I was just wanting to talk to her.

 

 
                                                              141

 
        1      Q.    Okay.  You say you called her when you got to
 
        2  work because you hadn't heard from her.
 
        3      A.    Yeah.  And then __
 
        4      Q.    The next time, when did you call her?
 
        5      A.    You know, I'm guessing it was sometime
 
        6  mid_morning.  And I started __ again, that feeling I had
 
        7  that morning just kind of carried with me all day.  So I
 
        8  called again before I left, I think either from work or
 
        9  from the house.  And I think I had forgotten her stuff
 
       10  at the house, if I remember correctly, and that's why I
 
       11  ran home and got something to eat.  And then I just left
 
       12  town, filled up and left town.  And I think it was like
 
       13  twelve or one, sometime around there.
 
       14      Q.    So you talked to her or you called her when
 
       15  you hadn't heard from her early in the morning before
 
       16  you went for work __ or at work.  I'm sorry.
 
       17      A.    Yeah, at work because __
 
       18      Q.    And you called her midmorning?
 
       19      A.    Actually, the first time I called her that day
 
       20  was probably midmorning, because __ I mean, I'm trying
 
       21  to put times, again, with what I did, because I know I
 
       22  called her from work at least a couple times.  But I
 
       23  don't think I would have called her before like nine or
 
       24  ten because I kind of felt like she was sleeping.  So I
 
       25  just didn't want to bother her.

 

 
                                                              142

 
        1      Q.    Well, how many times did you call her before
 
        2  you jumped in the car and started for Gillette?
 
        3      A.    I would say probably two.
 
        4                  MR. PREUSS:  Okay.  Why don't we take a
 
        5  break now for lunch.
 
        6                  (Deposition proceedings recessed 12:38
 
        7                  p.m. to 1:40 p.m.)
 
        8      Q.    (BY MR. PREUSS)  Did Don and Rita have any
 
        9  marital problems?
 
       10      A.    No.
 
       11      Q.    Did Rita ever express to you any concern for
 
       12  her own safety in living with Don?
 
       13      A.    No.
 
       14      Q.    Did Debbie ever express any concern?
 
       15      A.    No.
 
       16      Q.    Did Rita ever tell you that at or about the
 
       17  two_week period that we have been talking to that Don
 
       18  had spoken badly of her father?
 
       19      A.    No.
 
       20      Q.    Did you ever hear that?
 
       21      A.    No.
 
       22      Q.    That would surprise you?
 
       23      A.    Yeah, it would, actually.  When they first got
 
       24  married, like I said, there was __ I think Gerald was
 
       25  kind of disappointed that she was going to marry

 

 
                                                              143

 
        1  somebody that was in the oil field, and I think there
 
        2  was probably some hard feelings, you know, 30_some years
 
        3  ago, but that had all been resolved.
 
        4      Q.    They were on good terms, as far as you knew?
 
        5      A.    Yeah.
 
        6      Q.    Was Don right_handed or left_handed?
 
        7      A.    Don was right_handed, I believe.
 
        8      Q.    How do you know that?
 
        9      A.    Just trying to think how he wrote.
 
       10      Q.    Wrote with his right hand?
 
       11      A.    Yeah, I think so.
 
       12      Q.    Threw a baseball with his right hand?
 
       13      A.    Never saw him do that, but __
 
       14      Q.    A rock?
 
       15      A.    Just at the birds.
 
       16      Q.    Did Rita ever confide in Debbie that she had
 
       17  marital problems that Debbie passed on to you?
 
       18      A.    No, she never did.
 
       19      Q.    Had you seen Don depressed before?
 
       20      A.    Yeah.  I had seen him go through a bout with
 
       21  depression after he retired, and I think that was one of
 
       22  the __ that was when we were down here, at that point,
 
       23  and so I had spent a lot of time __
 
       24      Q.    You mean in '91, '92?
 
       25      A.    No.  I'm sorry.  We were living here one time

 

 
                                                              144

 
        1  when he had kind of a __ when he had a bout with it.  It
 
        2  was very short_lived.  He had one prior to that when he
 
        3  retired.  And I wouldn't say that was really
 
        4  depression.  It was just he was concerned his __ at the
 
        5  time he was worried about making his retirement because
 
        6  Occidental Petroleum was shutting down everything here
 
        7  locally.  And I think that was more stress.  But when we
 
        8  were living here, he kind of went through a bout of
 
        9  depression, and we talked about quite a bit of stuff at
 
       10  that point, but we were in down here.
 
       11      Q.    Let me make sure.  The first time that you
 
       12  were aware that he had any depression or anxiety __ I
 
       13  don't want to put words in your mouth.  What do you want
 
       14  to call it?
 
       15      A.    Depression would be fine.  I mean, I
 
       16  wouldn't __ yeah.
 
       17      Q.    All right.  And that was when he retired?
 
       18      A.    When he retired, yeah, right before he
 
       19  retired, and then when __
 
       20      Q.    So let me pin you down to a date or tell me
 
       21  about when that was.
 
       22      A.    Me and dates.
 
       23                  MR. VICKERY:  He gave me this look.
 
       24      Q.    (BY MR. PREUSS)  I didn't see your face, but I
 
       25  guess I missed something?

 

 
                                                              145

 
        1      A.    No, I guess __ I'm sorry.  Dates are hard for
 
        2  me.
 
        3      Q.    All right.  You were married in 1992.  He
 
        4  retired __
 
        5      A.    It was right about that time.  So it would
 
        6  have been around __ can I just say '91 through '93?
 
        7      Q.    Sure you can.  All you can do is your best
 
        8  recollection.
 
        9      A.    Yeah, because I honestly don't.
 
       10      Q.    All right.  And then how long did that episode
 
       11  last?
 
       12      A.    He was down for probably a couple weeks, two,
 
       13  three weeks.
 
       14      Q.    And how was his behavior pattern at that time?
 
       15      A.    He was quiet and just, again, just kind of did
 
       16  some reading.  And I think that's when he did go see a
 
       17  psychiatrist or psychologist.  I don't know which.
 
       18      Q.    The one he liked?
 
       19      A.    The one he liked, yeah.  I think that's where
 
       20  it started.
 
       21      Q.    And did he get medications from that physician
 
       22  or psychologist?
 
       23      A.    I think he did.
 
       24      Q.    Was that the imipramine?
 
       25      A.    Imipramine, if I recall correctly, if that was

 

 
                                                              146

 
        1  it, yeah.
 
        2      Q.    And how long did he stay on that medication?
 
        3      A.    I don't think it was more than a month or so,
 
        4  because he bounced right back from that.
 
        5            A number of things happened at the same time.
 
        6  I think the resolution with his retirement, they gave
 
        7  him a guarantee that he would reach his retirement, and
 
        8  there just seemed like a lot of things kind of fell into
 
        9  place.  And I think he at that point knew he was going
 
       10  to get some work afterwards.  So, he was doing good
 
       11  after that.
 
       12      Q.    So that was about two weeks.  How did his
 
       13  behavior pattern at that time compare to the behavior
 
       14  pattern you observed in the two weeks that we were
 
       15  talking about before lunch?
 
       16      A.    I would say __ in terms of me seeing his
 
       17  behavior, I would say the second time when we were
 
       18  living here I saw more, because I would come over and
 
       19  visit with him.
 
       20      Q.    We're not talking about the two weeks before
 
       21  the __
 
       22      A.    Right.  This was when __ actually, that was
 
       23  the first time he got down.  And the second time __
 
       24  let's call it three times.  And the third time was this
 
       25  last time.

 

 
                                                              147

 
        1      Q.    Right.  The second time.
 
        2      A.    Yeah.  It's a better example of what I saw him
 
        3  as.  I don't mean to jump off that one.
 
        4      Q.    That's fine.
 
        5      A.    Everybody was concerned about him because of
 
        6  the retirement issue the first time.  The second time it
 
        7  just seemed like it was the same pattern, I think, that
 
        8  he would fall into where he just would start feeling
 
        9  down and he wouldn't get out like he normally did.  He
 
       10  would take time off of work, which is rare for Don,
 
       11  would be for Don, and would just feel really __ he felt
 
       12  like he wanted his family around.  And so we all
 
       13  obliged, I guess, because that's what we all sensed that
 
       14  he needed more than anything was just to have family
 
       15  around.  And then he would kind of just __ you know, it
 
       16  was like he would get better every day after he __ it's
 
       17  almost like he would get down, he would realize he's
 
       18  down, and then he would start doing the things that kind
 
       19  of made him feel better.  You know, he would start
 
       20  meditating.  One of the psychiatrists told him some
 
       21  exercises to do.  He would walk so he could sleep.  And
 
       22  then he would really slowly but surely get better.  But
 
       23  it was just kind of like he wanted us around.  I'm
 
       24  sorry.  Your question was how did that compare.  It was
 
       25  about the same.

 

 
                                                              148

 
        1      Q.    Was that second time about a two_week period?
 
        2      A.    Of him being really down, yeah, and then it
 
        3  was a slow progress up that time.  It was probably
 
        4  about, I would say, a month and a half total where he
 
        5  was back to the old Don that we knew.
 
        6      Q.    And that was a time that you were living here
 
        7  in Gillette in an apartment?
 
        8      A.    Yeah.
 
        9      Q.    After you got married?
 
       10      A.    After we got married, yeah, because I would
 
       11  come from the apartment and I would just come check on
 
       12  him.  And we talked about everything and nothing.
 
       13      Q.    What doctor did he see, if any, on the second
 
       14  time?
 
       15      A.    I don't recall.  I know __ I don't know if he
 
       16  tried to see the one he saw the first time and he had
 
       17  already left town and he tried somebody else and he just
 
       18  decided that wasn't going to work for him anymore or __
 
       19  I don't know exactly what doctor he saw the second
 
       20  time.  I never knew really specifically.  He probably
 
       21  said which doctor, but I just don't recall.
 
       22      Q.    I believe you said this morning, and you
 
       23  correct me if I'm wrong, that at one time he had some
 
       24  medications that didn't work that well with him?
 
       25      A.    Yeah.  I remember __

 

 
                                                              149

 
        1      Q.    What episodes did that occur on?
 
        2      A.    I think that was the second time.
 
        3      Q.    And what happened to him with the meds?
 
        4      A.    He got real jittery, he said.  I didn't see
 
        5  him when he was having __ you know, I think he just
 
        6  referred to it as being jittery.  And I think he got on
 
        7  a different medication or he just stopped taking it.
 
        8  And I guess __ I'm sorry.  Really you would probably
 
        9  have to refer to his medical record for that.
 
       10      Q.    But to you, he didn't appear any different
 
       11  between the first, second and third time.
 
       12      A.    Not really, no.
 
       13      Q.    And the only difference on the second time was
 
       14  that he told you he was jittery.
 
       15      A.    I actually found that out through Deb, because
 
       16  I think Deb's mom had told Deb and Deb had told me.  And
 
       17  later on when he was feeling better, he did make mention
 
       18  that he just __ he preferred not to be on either the
 
       19  medicine that he was on or medicine in general.  I just
 
       20  don't recall exactly what it was he said.  I just was
 
       21  glad he was feeling better.  That was my only __ you
 
       22  know, it was like, okay, he's feeling better.
 
       23      Q.    All right.
 
       24      A.    You know what I mean when you talk to somebody
 
       25  for that long.  You know, it's __ you're just being

 

 
                                                              150

 
        1  supportive.  Half the time you just want to have them
 
        2  talk.  Makes them feel better.
 
        3      Q.    So were you making it a point to check on him
 
        4  then that second time?
 
        5      A.    Yeah, yeah.
 
        6      Q.    Now, are those the only three times that you
 
        7  saw him depressed?
 
        8      A.    Yeah.  Yes.
 
        9      Q.    Had anybody told you that he had been
 
       10  depressed prior to the '91, '93 first episode?
 
       11      A.    No.  I think that was his first time that he
 
       12  really got down.  Yeah.  That was the __ yeah, because I
 
       13  think he even said that was the first time he really
 
       14  understood what it was like to have depression or to get
 
       15  down.
 
       16      Q.    Had he ever been in an institution that
 
       17  treated mental illness, to your knowledge?
 
       18      A.    Not that I'm aware of.  I never heard that
 
       19  anybody mentioned that.
 
       20      Q.    After he retired and found a job, I think __
 
       21  my understanding is as an independent contractor.  Is
 
       22  that correct or not?
 
       23      A.    Yeah.
 
       24      Q.    Telstar?
 
       25      A.    Wellstar.

 

 
                                                              151

 
        1      Q.    Wellstar.  I'm sorry.  He was just __ he had a
 
        2  contract with them to check on a certain number of
 
        3  wells, as I understand.
 
        4      A.    That's correct, yeah.
 
        5      Q.    What kind of income was he making
 
        6  comparatively with what he had with Occidental?
 
        7      A.    He was pretty private with that.  He said he
 
        8  was going to do real well because it was an easy job for
 
        9  him.
 
       10      Q.    Was it your understanding he was going to make
 
       11  more money than he was with Occidental?
 
       12      A.    I actually honestly don't know.  I assumed it
 
       13  wasn't as much because just he wasn't in charge of __
 
       14  you know, he was just going to be doing certain wells.
 
       15  He was his own boss and didn't really have to answer to
 
       16  anybody as long as everything was taken care of.  You
 
       17  know what I mean.  He wasn't __ didn't have to go to an
 
       18  office.  He ran everything out of his house.
 
       19      Q.    Had his own schedule.
 
       20      A.    Yeah, pretty much.
 
       21      Q.    Was Don a creature of habit?
 
       22      A.    Oh, very much so, yeah, yeah.
 
       23      Q.    What kind of things did he do that led you to
 
       24  say that he was a creature of habit?
 
       25      A.    Well, a creature of habit or particular

 

 
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        1  maybe.  I don't know if you view those as the same
 
        2  things.  He definitely __
 
        3      Q.    However you want to say it is fine.
 
        4      A.    Yeah.  Okay.  Yeah, he's particular.  He is
 
        5  definitely a guy __ and I had a lot of respect for him
 
        6  about it.  He knew what he liked and he didn't really
 
        7  waste time with things he didn't like to do.  And he
 
        8  liked to do his yard.  He liked to keep the __ you know,
 
        9  every Saturday, they cleaned the house whether it needed
 
       10  or not.
 
       11      Q.    So Saturdays, you cleaned house.
 
       12      A.    Yeah, yeah.
 
       13      Q.    That was sort of what you did.
 
       14      A.    Uh_huh.  And when we were there, we did the
 
       15  same thing.  Worked out real well.
 
       16      Q.    Did he like people to work in the garden with
 
       17  him?
 
       18      A.    He kind of liked __ it was his own thing.  He
 
       19  just liked to go out.  You know, he could have done it
 
       20  probably in 20 minutes and it took him two hours.  He
 
       21  walked around.  He had a beautiful yard.  And when he
 
       22  came in, he would always fill up his truck, wash it, do
 
       23  his books or the daily books.  He was always __ he was
 
       24  just organized and just had his __ you know, just had
 
       25  everything organized, I guess.

 

 
                                                              153

 
        1      Q.    Did he wash his car every day?
 
        2      A.    It was just if it was muddy.  He would, you
 
        3  know, rinse it off, if it wasn't cold.  You know, oil
 
        4  changes were done when they were supposed to.  I wait
 
        5  too long.  I mean, he just was that type of guy that
 
        6  everything was __ if something needed to be taken care
 
        7  of, he just did it right then and took care of it.
 
        8      Q.    Did he park his car in a particular place?
 
        9      A.    Yeah.  He would either __ well, yeah.  He
 
       10  would always park it out front, and he had another truck
 
       11  that he parked by the old garage that they had
 
       12  enclosed.  Yeah, I would say he kept pretty much the
 
       13  same.
 
       14      Q.    How was he about visitors?  Did he like
 
       15  visitors in his house?
 
       16      A.    He liked it when we came.  He had some good
 
       17  friends that he would go see and they would drop by
 
       18  periodically, but socializing, I think, was __ you know,
 
       19  to tell you the truth, other than Christmas and people
 
       20  dropping stuff by, I never really saw anybody come by
 
       21  when we were there.  Rita would have people come by.
 
       22  And sometimes, you know, I think he was just __ I don't
 
       23  think he had a problem with it.
 
       24      Q.    Did he get upset when people parked in front
 
       25  of his house?

 

 
                                                              154

 
        1      A.    No.  I don't think anybody ever did.  It's a
 
        2  nice neighborhood.
 
        3      Q.    Did Rita and Don socialize in their home and
 
        4  have people over for dinner?
 
        5      A.    You know, I don't think very much that I was
 
        6  aware of.
 
        7      Q.    Do you recall when they ever did?
 
        8      A.    Other than family?  I __
 
        9      Q.    Other than family.
 
       10      A.    Other than family?  Okay.  I don't remember.
 
       11  Yeah.  I don't think __ yeah, I don't remember.
 
       12      Q.    Rita worked.  Right?
 
       13      A.    Yes.
 
       14      Q.    And what was her job?
 
       15      A.    She was a real estate agent.
 
       16      Q.    How long had she been a real estate agent?
 
       17      A.    Four years maybe, three years.
 
       18      Q.    Was she employed outside the home before that,
 
       19  becoming a real estate agent?
 
       20      A.    Yeah.  She used to work for a guy named __
 
       21  that actually __ the doctor that delivered Mike and Deb,
 
       22  Dr. Hannam.  I think she did the books for him.  And I
 
       23  think she tried real estate before when there was a big
 
       24  boom in Gillette in the, I guess it would be, late '70s
 
       25  or early '80s.  And the real estate market crashed.  So

 

 
                                                              155

 
        1  she got out of it at that point and returned into it
 
        2  when she started again here.  She did really well,
 
        3  actually.
 
        4      Q.    So she had had her agent's license for quite a
 
        5  while?
 
        6      A.    I believe so, yeah.
 
        7      Q.    But she stopped after the '70s and '80s for a
 
        8  period of, what, ten years or so?
 
        9      A.    Yeah.  She did it for maybe a year, and it was
 
       10  just a bad environment for real estate.
 
       11      Q.    Did she make any money that year?
 
       12      A.    I think she made __ she made quite a bit of
 
       13  money.
 
       14      Q.    That one year?
 
       15      A.    Oh.  Excuse me.  The year that she started.
 
       16  I'm sorry.  No, I don't think so.
 
       17      Q.    Then she __ I take it that was a part_time job
 
       18  for Dr. Hannam?
 
       19      A.    It was, yeah.
 
       20      Q.    About how many hours a week?
 
       21      A.    You know, I don't know.  I just remember them
 
       22  talking about her going over and Deb going over and Doc
 
       23  Hannam paid her like two bucks to empty the trash.  I
 
       24  mean, it was __
 
       25      Q.    It wasn't a full_time job?

 

 
                                                              156

 
        1      A.    No.  It was just when the books needed to be
 
        2  done, I think.
 
        3      Q.    How did Rita occupy her time before she became
 
        4  a real estate agent again in the '90s?
 
        5      A.    She was really involved with her family.  They
 
        6  did quite a bit together.  She would go over and visit
 
        7  her mom.  Deb would always __ right before she became a
 
        8  real estate agent?  Deb never __ I don't know if she
 
        9  worked any part_time jobs or not.  I think they would
 
       10  just go to Deadwood or go out to Keyhole on weekends or
 
       11  periodically.  And that was about it, I think.  She was
 
       12  always doing something.  She was a lot like Deb.  She
 
       13  just was happy to sit and drink coffee and have a
 
       14  cigarette for the morning.
 
       15      Q.    You mentioned Deadwood a couple times.  Is
 
       16  that a resort or a vacation spot?
 
       17      A.    It's just __ Deadwood, I don't even know how
 
       18  you describe it.  It's just a real small Reno on a very
 
       19  small scale, I guess.  They have gambling.  It's an old
 
       20  mining town or an old western town and they have redone
 
       21  it with some casinos.  I don't think there is more than
 
       22  eight __ there is more than that, but __
 
       23      Q.    Did Rita return to the real estate market at
 
       24  or about the time that Don retired?
 
       25      A.    I think it was right before.  I think the real

 

 
                                                              157

 
        1  estate market had started to change a little bit, and
 
        2  she felt it was a good time.  She wanted to go back and
 
        3  work since the kids had been gone for a while.  And she
 
        4  was good at it.  So __
 
        5      Q.    Did Rita make more money than Don?
 
        6      A.    I don't think so.
 
        7      Q.    What was Rita's occupational schedule?  In
 
        8  other words, what were her hours of work when she __ I'm
 
        9  talking about when she was a real estate agent.
 
       10      A.    She __ okay.  From what I know, she had floor
 
       11  duty once a week, which meant she had to be at the
 
       12  office for, I believe, a day at the office.  And other
 
       13  than that, I think she would go do __ she would go to
 
       14  the office for maybe a morning, and then if she didn't
 
       15  have anything going on, she would come home for the
 
       16  afternoon or vice versa.  It kind of depended on the
 
       17  work.  And there were some times that she was gone all
 
       18  afternoon and into the evenings making showings, I
 
       19  guess, bringing people to the houses.
 
       20      Q.    Did Don like her home in the afternoons?
 
       21      A.    Yeah.
 
       22      Q.    Did he expect her to be home at a certain time
 
       23  each day?
 
       24      A.    I think there was one point where he was
 
       25  cranky and said he wanted dinner.  And that was one of

 

 
                                                              158

 
        1  the few times I __ but, you know, he would actually cook
 
        2  dinner for her.  So, I don't know if he ever really felt
 
        3  like it was mandatory that she was the one that cooked
 
        4  dinner or be home, you know.
 
        5      Q.    So as far as from your observations, some days
 
        6  she would get home early, some days she wouldn't, but it
 
        7  didn't matter one way or the other?
 
        8      A.    If she didn't __ there was one time she drove
 
        9  out to a showing and she didn't show up for quite a
 
       10  while, and Don get worried.  And sure enough, her __ she
 
       11  had a flat tire out there.  And that was the only time
 
       12  that there was any real, you know, problem with her not
 
       13  showing up.
 
       14      Q.    Well, did Don __ was Don upset about it?
 
       15      A.    I think he was just worried about her.
 
       16      Q.    So he was just worried but not upset at her at
 
       17  not being back.
 
       18      A.    No, I don't think he was upset at her.  I
 
       19  honestly think he was just worried, you know.  And he
 
       20  went out and got her and everything was fine.  He just
 
       21  said, "Why don't you" __ she just said, "Well, maybe I
 
       22  should get a cell phone now."  And they got her a cell
 
       23  phone.
 
       24      Q.    Who was Don's best friend in the family
 
       25  circle?

 

 
                                                              159

 
        1      A.    In the family?  I would like to say myself,
 
        2  because we spent most of our time together, but I would
 
        3  say he was close to Gerald and Mimi.
 
        4      Q.    How about Rita?  Who was her closest friend __
 
        5      A.    Her mom.
 
        6      Q.    __ in the family?
 
        7      A.    Her mom.
 
        8      Q.    Okay.  Outside of the family, who was Don's
 
        9  best friend?
 
       10      A.    I just blank out on their names.  He's a
 
       11  woodworker here in town.  I can't remember his name.  He
 
       12  would go see him periodically.
 
       13                  MR. VICKERY:  I can give you that.  Are
 
       14  you talking about George Smith?
 
       15                  THE DEPONENT:  Yeah.
 
       16      Q.    (BY MR. PREUSS)  Who was Rita's best friend
 
       17  outside the family?
 
       18      A.    Oh, she had a couple, one or two women that
 
       19  she worked with that she got along with quite well.  And
 
       20  it's been so long, I __ I take that back.  She had a
 
       21  friend that lived over in Spearfish that she had gone to
 
       22  school with and they had kept in touch over the years,
 
       23  in fact, with both Don and Rita.  I think she was
 
       24  single.  And Rita talked about her and just a couple
 
       25  gals who were __

 

 
                                                              160

 
        1      Q.    Do you have any names?
 
        2      A.    I __ you know, if you give me long enough __
 
        3      Q.    Names are like dates?
 
        4      A.    Yeah.  I __ you know, I'm not trying to hold
 
        5  any __ I'm just __
 
        6      Q.    No.
 
        7      A.    I just can't remember.
 
        8      Q.    You don't remember the people in her place of
 
        9  work that she was particularly friendly with?
 
       10      A.    I'm sorry.  Real estate.  There was a couple
 
       11  of people that were real estate agents that she was
 
       12  quite friendly with.
 
       13      Q.    But you don't recall their names?
 
       14      A.    I don't.  She was __ the one gal was married
 
       15  to a guy that was safety manager for Amax.  Sherry
 
       16  McGrath was her boss.
 
       17                  MR. VICKERY:  Neva will know, I'm sure.
 
       18  But just tell him whatever you're aware of.
 
       19      A.    I'm sorry.  I just can't remember their
 
       20  names.  If I remember as we're talking, I'll tell you.
 
       21      Q.    (BY MR. PREUSS)  Was Don supportive of Rita
 
       22  working?
 
       23      A.    I think so, yeah.  Yeah.  I __
 
       24      Q.    How much older was Don than Rita?
 
       25      A.    Must have been about five years, too, I think.

 

 
                                                              161

 
        1      Q.    What were Rita's hobbies?
 
        2      A.    She liked to gamble.
 
        3      Q.    Okay.
 
        4      A.    Yeah.  She was kind of like Deb.  You know,
 
        5  she would do something for a little bit like make cards
 
        6  and then get sick of it and do something else.  She was
 
        7  very __ very kind of a nice serene lady is the best way
 
        8  to put her.  She just liked to have coffee and smoke and
 
        9  talk.  She was just very, very, very sociable, actually,
 
       10  especially with family.  And we would sit and talk for
 
       11  hours.  That was probably her favorite thing, actually.
 
       12  I used to give Deb __
 
       13      Q.    What __
 
       14      A.    I'm sorry.
 
       15      Q.    Go ahead.
 
       16      A.    I used to give Deb a hard time because she
 
       17  would get on the phone and they would be __
 
       18      Q.    Was there any jealousies that Don harbored?
 
       19      A.    Not that I'm aware of.
 
       20      Q.    And vice versa?
 
       21      A.    No.
 
       22      Q.    As far as you knew, the notebook that Don and
 
       23  Rita put together about their wishes when they were
 
       24  gone, was that carried out with respect to Rita as well?
 
       25      A.    I hope so.  I don't know.

 

 
                                                              162

 
        1      Q.    Have you ever seen it yourself?
 
        2      A.    No.
 
        3      Q.    Had Don ever shaved his head when he was
 
        4  depressed?
 
        5      A.    He did one time.  He shaved his head a couple
 
        6  times.  And he was __ he had kind of a hairline like
 
        7  yourself.  I'm going to __ yeah.  He just would shave it
 
        8  in the summertime because he got sick of dealing with
 
        9  it.  And everybody would say he looked so much better
 
       10  with what little hair you got, and he would grow it
 
       11  back.
 
       12      Q.    So it wasn't in any way connected to any of
 
       13  his depressions?
 
       14      A.    Not __ if it was, I wasn't aware of it.  I
 
       15  mean, I never put the two together.
 
       16      Q.    Okay.  You got to Gillette on that Friday to
 
       17  pick up Deb and Alyssa, and you went over to the house.
 
       18  Right?
 
       19      A.    Yeah.
 
       20      Q.    And what did you do?
 
       21      A.    Well, I pulled up and parked, you know, parked
 
       22  in the driveway and went to the door and rang the
 
       23  doorbell.  And no one answered.  So I figured they must
 
       24  be out or having dinner or something.
 
       25      Q.    Did you have a key to the house?

 

 
                                                              163

 
        1      A.    No.  Deb did.  And there had been one back in
 
        2  the shed, but I didn't think about it at the time.  I
 
        3  just thought they were at dinner.
 
        4      Q.    Okay.  And then you __ what did you do next?
 
        5      A.    I left, drove around for a while and went by
 
        6  some of the restaurants that I knew that they went to
 
        7  and was looking for their car, because I saw Don's truck
 
        8  and his bigger truck.  He had two trucks.  And I didn't
 
        9  find them, so I came back, rang the doorbell again.  And
 
       10  I noticed the paper and morning paper were still there.
 
       11      Q.    You hadn't noticed that the first time.
 
       12      A.    You know, I picked it up.  I didn't even think
 
       13  about it, because I think there is two papers in
 
       14  Gillette and one is Casper, which is delivered every day
 
       15  or however it is.  One is delivered every day and one is
 
       16  delivered, I think, just in the afternoons during the
 
       17  week.
 
       18      Q.    Every day being in the morning?
 
       19      A.    Yeah.  And then I at that point realized it
 
       20  was the morning paper.  And I had kind of an unsettled
 
       21  feeling.  Then I kind of started thinking that the truck
 
       22  was usually gone when we would come down.  He takes one
 
       23  of the trucks and puts them out in the back or puts them
 
       24  on the street and then I can unload the stuff from the
 
       25  car and take it through the garage.  So I thought,

 

 
                                                              164

 
        1  well __ I got nervous.
 
        2            Then I think I drove over to Mimi's and asked
 
        3  if they knew where they were at.  And they said, oh,
 
        4  they were probably just at dinner or at Deadwood.  And I
 
        5  went back to the house, rang the doorbell again, went
 
        6  back over it Mimi's.
 
        7                  MR. GORMAN:  Mimi is Flo.  Right?
 
        8                  THE DEPONENT:  Yeah, Flo.
 
        9                  MR. PREUSS:  Right.  That's okay.
 
       10      A.    And I think she __ I don't know if she got
 
       11  nervous, or she gave me the cell phone.  I needed to try
 
       12  to find out where they were at, because I was kind of
 
       13  the neurotic father at that point.  And I just wanted to
 
       14  know where they were at, and, you know __
 
       15      Q.    (BY MR. PREUSS)  So how many times did you go
 
       16  over to Mimi's?
 
       17      A.    I think twice.  I got pretty nervous after a
 
       18  certain point, you know, when they asked me before, I
 
       19  said, I don't know where __ I was driving all over and
 
       20  then I was calling.  I was calling home.
 
       21      Q.    You were calling the house here in Gillette?
 
       22      A.    Yeah, I was calling here.  I was calling over
 
       23  to my house in Billings thinking maybe they left a
 
       24  message there and I was just stupid and missed it.  So
 
       25  then I at that point went back over and __

 

 
                                                              165

 
        1      Q.    That would be the third time?
 
        2      A.    Third time, or, you know, I made the circle a
 
        3  couple times.  I didn't want to __ the last thing I
 
        4  wanted to do at that point was I thought I was just
 
        5  being neurotic and I just had this feeling, just kind of
 
        6  this thing or __ I just didn't feel right and I just
 
        7  thought it was just me.  And my daughter was only nine
 
        8  months old.  So I still was getting used to, you know __
 
        9  I was protective, I guess.  And so, then I was getting
 
       10  more and more upset.  And I went over to the neighbors'
 
       11  after I had went over to Mimi's a couple of times.  Went
 
       12  to one of these quick marts, called the house again.  I
 
       13  guess this is before I got the cell phone.  Then when I
 
       14  had the cell phone, I would try.  And then I went back
 
       15  and talked to the neighbor.  And I said, "Have you seen
 
       16  them?"
 
       17            He goes, "Oh, I just saw you showed up," like
 
       18  four, five, four_thirty.  And he goes, "Yeah.  It's kind
 
       19  of odd that Don didn't move the truck for you."
 
       20            And I was like, "Have you" __
 
       21      Q.    The neighbor commented on that?
 
       22      A.    Yeah.  We were down there a lot, so __ I think
 
       23  his name was __
 
       24      Q.    And that's what Don always did?
 
       25      A.    Yeah, just so I could unload stuff.  So

 

 
                                                              166

 
        1  anyways, his name is Vern.  So Vern called down to ERA
 
        2  for me and asked if Rita had showed up for work or if
 
        3  she was supposed to be in for work, and they said yeah,
 
        4  and she hadn't showed up yet.  And I just lost it.
 
        5            So I said I needed to get into the house.  I
 
        6  was trying to remember if there was a key, and I had
 
        7  forgotten totally about the key in the shed.  So he kind
 
        8  of started getting a bad feeling because I said the
 
        9  light is not on.  And I was, I think, upset at that
 
       10  point and he was kind of feeding off of me.  And do you
 
       11  want me to just go through the whole thing?
 
       12      Q.    Sure.  Whatever is easier for you.
 
       13      A.    I forgot what you asked.  I forgot what you
 
       14  asked.
 
       15      Q.    Okay.  Well, let me back you up a little bit.
 
       16  What car were you looking for that wasn't there?
 
       17      A.    The Cadillac.
 
       18      Q.    Where was that normally parked?
 
       19      A.    In the garage.
 
       20      Q.    Did you look in the garage?
 
       21      A.    That's __ I'm sorry.  Let me back up again.  I
 
       22  went over, looked, didn't see the car in the garage and
 
       23  then went over to Vern's.
 
       24      Q.    So you didn't look for the car before that
 
       25  time?

 

 
                                                              167

 
        1      A.    I didn't think about it.  I was __ I know it
 
        2  sounds stupid, but I just didn't even think about it
 
        3  until Mimi said, "Well, is the car in there?"
 
        4            I said, "I didn't check."  So that's when I
 
        5  went back over.  I was kind of nervous.
 
        6      Q.    That was the third time, though.  Right?
 
        7      A.    I think __ yeah.
 
        8      Q.    The first time you come there, you rang the
 
        9  doorbell.  Nobody is there.  You don't see the
 
       10  Cadillac.  You don't check the key.  You don't check the
 
       11  garage to see if the Cadillac is there.  You drive
 
       12  around thinking they may be out to dinner.  You don't
 
       13  find them.
 
       14      A.    Right.
 
       15      Q.    You come back to the house.  You then take the
 
       16  newspaper and it's the morning paper.
 
       17      A.    Right.
 
       18      Q.    Then you get more concerned and you go out
 
       19  again and you drive around?
 
       20      A.    Drive around, go by Mimi's and ask her.  They
 
       21  didn't know.
 
       22      Q.    They didn't know at that point.
 
       23      A.    Right.
 
       24      Q.    And did you get the cell phone at that time?
 
       25      A.    Yeah.  And I actually made one more round.  I

 

 
                                                              168

 
        1  just didn't want to get __ I was on the verge of totally
 
        2  losing it with nerves, you know, and not going crazy,
 
        3  just __ I was frantic.  And so I drove around one more
 
        4  time because I thought, I got to calm down.  There is a
 
        5  good reason why they were not at the house.
 
        6      Q.    After you had gotten the cell phone.
 
        7      A.    Yeah.  And then I called the house, called
 
        8  home, and then went over to the house again, checked on
 
        9  the Cadillac and then went over to Vern's house.  And
 
       10  that's when Vern called down to ERA.  And I lost it
 
       11  after that.
 
       12      Q.    All right.  And ERA said that, "We expect her
 
       13  but we haven't seen her."
 
       14      A.    And they had been trying to call her all day,
 
       15  or whatever they did.  They had been trying to get ahold
 
       16  of her.
 
       17      Q.    And then you said, "I got to get in the
 
       18  house."
 
       19      A.    Yeah.
 
       20      Q.    All right.  And so did you and Vern go over
 
       21  there or just you?
 
       22      A.    I'm sorry.  He at that point called the
 
       23  police, because I said, "I need to get in the house."
 
       24            He said, "No.  Let's wait for the police."
 
       25            So a policeman showed up.  And Vern was trying

 

 
                                                              169

 
        1  to keep me from just going over there because I just
 
        2  didn't know what to do.  I didn't know if they were in
 
        3  the house or what was going on.  And so the policeman
 
        4  said that he couldn't allow me to go into the house.
 
        5  And I said I didn't care __ oh.  He tried to help us
 
        6  find the key, because at this point it's dark and he had
 
        7  a flashlight.  And I think he thought I was kind of
 
        8  nutty.  And __
 
        9      Q.    So what period of time had that transpired
 
       10  from the time that you first rang the doorbell to the
 
       11  time that the policeman showed up there?
 
       12      A.    Two hours maybe.
 
       13      Q.    Did you wait at Vern's house until a policeman
 
       14  came?
 
       15      A.    Yeah.
 
       16      Q.    And then when he came, you went outside with
 
       17  the policeman?
 
       18      A.    Yeah.
 
       19      Q.    And so then the three of you went up or was
 
       20  there more than one policeman?
 
       21      A.    I think there was just one policeman at that
 
       22  point.
 
       23      Q.    Okay.
 
       24      A.    So he said we would try to find the key.
 
       25      Q.    Couldn't find the key?

 

 
                                                              170

 
        1      A.    Couldn't find the key.
 
        2      Q.    Did that surprise you?
 
        3      A.    Well, I don't know if I just didn't know where
 
        4  he put it, because __ I mean, I don't know if it was
 
        5  ever found afterwards.
 
        6      Q.    Had you ever used the key before yourself?
 
        7      A.    No.  I just knew he had one out there.  I
 
        8  don't know if he just kept it out there in the
 
        9  summertime in case he got locked out.  But anyways, it
 
       10  was my best hope, and __
 
       11      Q.    So they didn't find a key.
 
       12      A.    And then I said, "I'm going in the house."
 
       13            And the guy said, "Well, you know, that's
 
       14  breaking" __ he said something __ I don't know the
 
       15  specifics, something about breaking, and I said, "Well,
 
       16  you can arrest me then because I need to know what's
 
       17  going on."  And he goes __ I was frantic at that point.
 
       18  I tried to break __ I took a brick and tried to break
 
       19  the door.
 
       20      Q.    When he's there and Vern is there.
 
       21      A.    Yeah.  I just said, I'm not __ and the cop is
 
       22  like, "Well, there has got to be a good reason."
 
       23            And I'm like, "Well, my baby and my wife are
 
       24  in there and Don" __ I just didn't know.  And so, I
 
       25  tried to break it and I couldn't.  So Vern broke it for

 

 
                                                              171

 
        1  me.  And I don't know if Vern stayed outside or if he
 
        2  went in.  And we ran inside.  I ran upstairs, and, you
 
        3  know, there was what looked like Don and Deb and Rita.
 
        4  And I lost it completely.
 
        5      Q.    So did you actually go in the bedroom?
 
        6      A.    I don't remember.  I remember getting in the
 
        7  doorway.
 
        8      Q.    Of the bedroom?
 
        9      A.    Of the bedroom.
 
       10      Q.    The master bedroom, we're talking about.
 
       11      A.    Yeah.  And honestly, to this day, I don't know
 
       12  exactly what I saw.
 
       13      Q.    But you were the first __ you were the lead up
 
       14  the stairs?
 
       15      A.    I think so.
 
       16                  MR. PREUSS:  Did you get an answer?
 
       17      A.    I think so.  I'm sorry.
 
       18      Q.    (BY MR. PREUSS)  And then you said you lost
 
       19  it.  What did you do?
 
       20      A.    I just don't remember.  And I'm serious.  I
 
       21  just __ it's like everything kind of hit me at once, the
 
       22  no phone call, morning paper.  I don't know.  It just __
 
       23      Q.    Did you know whether they were alive or dead
 
       24  when you saw them?
 
       25      A.    No.  I __ yeah, I think I guessed they were

 

 
                                                              172

 
        1  dead because there was blood.  And I think the cop
 
        2  grabbed me.  And the next thing I know, I'm over in
 
        3  Vern's house.  I honestly __ I have had nightmares over
 
        4  this whole thing and I don't know what I saw.  You know,
 
        5  I don't know if I saw Deb.  Alyssa, she's only nine
 
        6  months old, so, I mean __
 
        7                  MR. PREUSS:  Want to take a break?  Why
 
        8  don't you do that for a minute.
 
        9                  (Deposition proceedings recessed 2:23
 
       10                  p.m. to 2:30 p.m.)
 
       11      Q.    (BY MR. PREUSS)  You were over at the
 
       12  neighbor's place, then, right, the next thing you
 
       13  remember?
 
       14      A.    Excuse me.  Yes.  I'm sorry.  Yes.
 
       15      Q.    And who was there besides you and the
 
       16  neighbor?  Anybody?  Was Vern's wife there?
 
       17      A.    Yeah, she was, I think.  Yeah.  I think the
 
       18  policeman that went in with me was over there, I think,
 
       19  too.
 
       20      Q.    Did he ask you some questions?
 
       21      A.    It wasn't for quite a while.  I kind of
 
       22  snapped out of it a little bit and I just __ I was __ I
 
       23  don't know.  I kind of thought maybe I just __ it was a
 
       24  bad dream, you know.
 
       25      Q.    When you say you snapped out of it, you mean

 

 
                                                              173

 
        1  you got better control of yourself?
 
        2      A.    Yeah.
 
        3      Q.    Is that what you mean?
 
        4      A.    Yeah.
 
        5      Q.    When you were over there?
 
        6      A.    Yeah.  I actually honestly thought it was just
 
        7  a bad dream and I was just __ that's odd.  I just
 
        8  didn't __
 
        9      Q.    Were there any emergency technicians or
 
       10  ambulance people that came over?
 
       11      A.    Oh, yeah.  I don't know how long I was there,
 
       12  but I know I was there for a while.  I was at Vern's
 
       13  house.  And I couldn't catch my breath, and I thought I
 
       14  was going to pass out.  And then there were some EMTs
 
       15  that showed up.  And, you know, at the time, I just
 
       16  didn't follow because they were like, "You're going to
 
       17  have to be strong."  I don't remember what they said.
 
       18  Like, "Do you want us to take you down to the
 
       19  hospital?"
 
       20            And I was like, "Well, I don't need to go.
 
       21  I'm fine."  And then they __ I think the next thing was
 
       22  they took me down __ I think it was here or __ no.  I
 
       23  guess it was that building over there, the police or
 
       24  the __ anyways, they took me down to the police station.
 
       25      Q.    Who took you down, the EMTs or the police?

 

 
                                                              174

 
        1      A.    The police.
 
        2      Q.    Did you have any __ did the EMTs come over to
 
        3  Vern's house?
 
        4      A.    Yeah.  And I think I had kind of __ I traded
 
        5  one bad one for the other night, just kind of thought
 
        6  nothing happened.
 
        7      Q.    Did you tell the EMTs that you knew you
 
        8  shouldn't have let Debbie stay with Don and Rita?
 
        9      A.    I don't remember.  Like I say, I was __
 
       10      Q.    You have no recollection at all?
 
       11      A.    I honestly don't know what I said.
 
       12      Q.    Did reading the police reports in any way
 
       13  refresh your recollection about the sequence of events
 
       14  or what happened or what you might have said?
 
       15      A.    Yeah, but, you know, there is parts in there
 
       16  of things that I did that I had totally forgotten.  I
 
       17  know that probably seems not possible, but I had
 
       18  forgotten probably half of it.  I'm sure I just, you
 
       19  know __
 
       20      Q.    Did you start a sentence that said, "The only
 
       21  thing I could think of is that Don," and not finish that
 
       22  sentence?
 
       23      A.    I'm sure I did.  I don't know where I was
 
       24  going with any of it, to tell you the truth.  I just
 
       25  don't know.

 

 
                                                              175

 
        1      Q.    That's something you read in the report,
 
        2  though.  Right?
 
        3      A.    Yeah.
 
        4      Q.    But you don't know where that sentence was
 
        5  going?
 
        6      A.    I don't remember.  I mean, honestly, there is
 
        7  stuff like when I had forgotten that I couldn't break in
 
        8  the window, and Vern __ and when I read it, it reminded
 
        9  me.  You know, the whole thing is kind of a blur for
 
       10  me.  It's not __ it is but it isn't, you know.  It's
 
       11  like I have little parts, like walking through that
 
       12  door.  Jesus, that's like __ I mean, I can make a clear
 
       13  distinction between running up, and after that, I just
 
       14  don't.  I remember seeing, you know, blood and then __
 
       15      Q.    You remember seeing at least part of Don's
 
       16  body.  Right?
 
       17      A.    (Nodded head.)
 
       18      Q.    But you don't remember seeing anything else.
 
       19      A.    I don't think so.  I saw __ like I said, I
 
       20  don't know.  I specifically have not read anything about
 
       21  this until this morning.  And I try to keep as far away
 
       22  from it as I can.
 
       23      Q.    And the only things you read, just to make
 
       24  sure I understand, are the police reports themselves.
 
       25      A.    Yeah.

 

 
                                                              176

 
        1      Q.    That's it.
 
        2      A.    And I just skimmed them to kind of get a __
 
        3      Q.    How many were there?
 
        4      A.    Three.
 
        5                  MR. VICKERY:  The 2_13 report, the 4 __
 
        6  2_17 report and the 4 __ I'll give you the date on that
 
        7  one.
 
        8                  THE DEPONENT:  I'm not saying I __ I
 
        9  mean, I just don't know.
 
       10                  MR. PREUSS:  Well, I have 2_19, 2_20 and
 
       11  4_16.
 
       12                  MR. VICKERY:  I have one dated 2_17,
 
       13  2_19 and 4_16.  Those were the three that I showed him
 
       14  to see if they would jog his recollection on anything.
 
       15                  MR. PREUSS:  Okay.  Could I take a peek
 
       16  at the 2_17?
 
       17                  MR. VICKERY:  Yeah.
 
       18      Q.    (BY MR. PREUSS)  Was the house on Fifth
 
       19  Street?
 
       20      A.    Yeah.
 
       21      Q.    I think once they talked about Seventh
 
       22  Street.  But it's Fifth Street.  Right?
 
       23      A.    Yeah.
 
       24      Q.    Where did Rita normally park the __ her car?
 
       25      A.    The Cadillac?  That was in the garage.  She

 

 
                                                              177

 
        1  usually put it in the garage.
 
        2      Q.    And did Don always have the driveway clear of
 
        3  his vehicle when she came home?
 
        4      A.    Actually, the only time he moved them, he
 
        5  usually just parked on the street anyways, but he left
 
        6  the big truck parked on the __ he didn't drive it very
 
        7  often, so he left it parked __ they had a one_car garage
 
        8  and then two spaces.  You mean know I mean?  It used to
 
        9  be a two_garage and they enclosed it.  So he usually
 
       10  parked it here.  And the only time he moved it was when
 
       11  I came to town or someone was coming over.  He parked it
 
       12  on the street.
 
       13      Q.    So Rita used the Cadillac for work?
 
       14      A.    Yeah.
 
       15      Q.    And he would use the lighter pickup?
 
       16      A.    He would use his __ yeah, or his __ yeah.
 
       17      Q.    Was it your recollection that you were the
 
       18  first one up the stairs?
 
       19      A.    I think so.  I __ yeah, I think so.  He may
 
       20  have been in before me.  I don't __ we basically got
 
       21  there at the same time.  He was kind of freak __ he was
 
       22  pretty nervous about the whole thing, too.  I mean, I
 
       23  think after my being __ me being nervous and Vern being
 
       24  nervous, I don't think he knew what to expect either,
 
       25  because he didn't __ it was like we both stood there for

 

 
                                                              178

 
        1  a little bit, and then he grabbed me when I started to
 
        2  go in the room, is what I remember.
 
        3      Q.    What happened down at the police department
 
        4  building?
 
        5      A.    We went through what seemed like hours of, "Is
 
        6  there anything you want to tell us?"
 
        7      Q.    Did you think they were accusing you of
 
        8  something?
 
        9      A.    Yeah.  Well, here for a long time, I didn't
 
       10  even know.  They said, "Will you help us?"
 
       11            And I said, "Yeah."  So they read me my
 
       12  rights.  And I figured I was __ I just didn't care.
 
       13  They say you're supposed to get a lawyer when they do
 
       14  that.  I just didn't care.  It was like, whatever they
 
       15  wanted.
 
       16      Q.    How long were you down there?
 
       17      A.    I think till one or so.
 
       18      Q.    Where did you spend the night?
 
       19      A.    At Mimi's, at Flo's.
 
       20      Q.    And how long did you stay there?
 
       21      A.    I don't know.  I lost it again the next day.
 
       22  And I don't know if they __ they gave me something to
 
       23  knock me out.
 
       24      Q.    "They" did being whom?
 
       25      A.    Mimi or somebody that was there, because I got

 

 
                                                              179

 
        1  to the house and I saw Mimi and I just __ I lost it
 
        2  again.
 
        3      Q.    So that was the second day.  How long did you
 
        4  stay in Gillette?
 
        5      A.    I think for three days.  My folks came up.  My
 
        6  brother came up.  Some friends came down.  And my mom
 
        7  just __ she was kind of running the thing because I
 
        8  didn't know what to do.
 
        9      Q.    So your mom took charge of the situation?
 
       10      A.    Yeah.  We were a mess.  I mean, it was Neva,
 
       11  Mimi, myself.  There was some other people there.  And
 
       12  we were a mess.  I mean, we were __ we just __ my mom __
 
       13  I think some friends showed up the next day, took me
 
       14  down to the Holiday Inn.  And I don't know why we didn't
 
       15  leave sooner.  I think the police wanted me to stay
 
       16  till __ whatever they were doing.
 
       17      Q.    So that's what kept you here for the three
 
       18  days?
 
       19      A.    Yeah.
 
       20      Q.    Did your brother stay with you down there
 
       21  then?
 
       22      A.    You know, I don't remember exactly who was
 
       23  there.  I'm sorry.  They were there.  I mean, I don't
 
       24  know who.  They __ at one point my mom shoved me in the
 
       25  shower because I was __ I just __ you know, when I get

 

 
                                                              180

 
        1  emotional, I just shake, and I was starting to have a
 
        2  hard time breathing.  And I think she just shoved me in
 
        3  the shower, tried to calm me down.  And I think we ended
 
        4  up going to the hospital, because I just couldn't __ I
 
        5  just couldn't calm down.
 
        6      Q.    Who drove you down to __ or drove you to
 
        7  Billings?
 
        8      A.    I think it was my brother and my mom, or it
 
        9  was Mom and Carl.
 
       10      Q.    And then you stayed back at your house with
 
       11  your brother?
 
       12      A.    No.  I went to my mom's.  And it was about two
 
       13  weeks before __ I think roughly about two weeks before I
 
       14  could go back in the house.  And I went back into the
 
       15  house actually earlier than that and I started breaking
 
       16  stuff.
 
       17      Q.    What kinds of things?
 
       18      A.    I grabbed a pot.
 
       19      Q.    So then did you go back to your mom's or what?
 
       20      A.    Yeah.  And then I guess it was __ I wasn't
 
       21  comfortable at my mom's.
 
       22      Q.    You were uncomfortable?
 
       23      A.    Yeah.  I asked my brother if he would come
 
       24  over to the house with me because I felt like I needed
 
       25  to be there.  Why, I have no idea.  I just felt like I

 

 
                                                              181

 
        1  needed to be there.  And, you know, in hindsight, it was
 
        2  probably the worst thing I did was trying to go back in
 
        3  the house.  I should have just gotten rid of it then.
 
        4  But I felt like I needed, you know __ yeah.  I ended up
 
        5  at the house.  I'm sorry.
 
        6      Q.    So why were you uncomfortable at your mom's
 
        7  then?
 
        8      A.    I felt like I needed to go to the house for
 
        9  some reason.  I just felt like I was __ you know, this
 
       10  is the guy that runs away from his problem, I guess, but
 
       11  I just felt like I was kind of letting the girls down by
 
       12  staying at my mom's and I felt like a burden, because, I
 
       13  mean, I just wanted to be alone.  I didn't want anybody
 
       14  around.  I didn't even want my brother around,
 
       15  actually.
 
       16            So I wanted to be at the house by myself.  I
 
       17  just wanted to be left alone.  I was sick of people
 
       18  coming by, you know.  It was like living this fucking
 
       19  nightmare over and over again, you know, every single
 
       20  time.  And I just __
 
       21      Q.    I'm sorry you have to do it today.  I
 
       22  apologize for that.
 
       23            Were there funeral services?
 
       24      A.    Yeah.
 
       25      Q.    Were they all together or were yours separate?

 

 
                                                              182

 
        1      A.    Mine were separate.
 
        2      Q.    When did yours occur?
 
        3      A.    They released the bodies the next Thursday,
 
        4  and I buried them together.
 
        5      Q.    In the same coffin?
 
        6      A.    (Nodded head.)
 
        7      Q.    Was it a private ceremony?
 
        8      A.    Yeah.
 
        9      Q.    Your mom?
 
       10      A.    I'm sorry.  Private.  No, it wasn't private,
 
       11  but I didn't want __ I wasn't sure what the situation
 
       12  was with people that just wanted to come and gawk.  So I
 
       13  had some of my cousins and everybody watch for people
 
       14  they didn't know.  So in that sense, I wanted it to be
 
       15  private, but I wanted people who knew Deb to come, and
 
       16  Alyssa, of course.
 
       17      Q.    So Flo came?
 
       18      A.    No.  She was in no shape to come up.
 
       19      Q.    Who came from Deb's side of the family?
 
       20      A.    I think Peg and Al came.  I honestly don't
 
       21  remember.  I'm sorry.  There was a __ there were people
 
       22  there from Gillette.  I just __ I think what had
 
       23  happened is that they had a service with all four here
 
       24  in Gillette.
 
       25      Q.    For the four?

 

 
                                                              183

 
        1      A.    Four of them, yeah.  And __
 
        2      Q.    Did you attend that?
 
        3      A.    No.  I couldn't come back.  I had about enough
 
        4  energy for one and I wanted that to be Deb and Alyssa's,
 
        5  not __ I mean, I just couldn't __ I mean, to this day, I
 
        6  don't know how I made it through it.
 
        7      Q.    Who handled the arrangements for the Gillette
 
        8  services?
 
        9      A.    I think Mimi and Neva, Flo and __ do you know
 
       10  who I'm talking __
 
       11                  MR. GORMAN:  Yes.
 
       12      A.    Mimi and Neva and the Catholic priest here in
 
       13  town.
 
       14      Q.    (BY MR. PREUSS)  By the name of?
 
       15      A.    Father __ boy, I thought I would never forget
 
       16  his name, because he immediately came over and __ I
 
       17  don't remember.  I know who he is.
 
       18                  MR. GORMAN:  Father Ogg?
 
       19      A.    Father Ogg, yeah.
 
       20      Q.    (BY MR. PREUSS)  Did he provide some comfort
 
       21  to you?
 
       22      A.    No, no.
 
       23      Q.    Was anybody able to provide any comfort to
 
       24  you?
 
       25      A.    No.

 

 
                                                              184

 
        1      Q.    Not your mom, not your brother?
 
        2      A.    No.  They make things better, you know, but
 
        3  it's still me __ when I go to sleep, it's still me
 
        4  dealing with them on my own.  You know?  My memories and
 
        5  my __ I'm sorry.  I'm rambling.
 
        6      Q.    Do you know a Kevin Nelson?
 
        7      A.    I don't recall him, no.
 
        8      Q.    Kevin Nelson was somebody that Don was
 
        9  connected to in one fashion or another in work.
 
       10      A.    I didn't know him.
 
       11      Q.    Have you ever talked to Dr. Patel?
 
       12      A.    No.
 
       13      Q.    Have you ever talked to anybody from
 
       14  SmithKline Beecham?
 
       15      A.    No, I haven't.
 
       16      Q.    Have you ever heard of an individual by the
 
       17  name of Regina that lives in Nebraska?
 
       18      A.    Yeah.  It's one of Deb's good friends.
 
       19      Q.    Do you know her last name?
 
       20      A.    It was Kurl or Hurl.  I think it's Kurl, K __
 
       21      Q.    C_u_r_l?
 
       22      A.    K, I think.
 
       23      Q.    K_u_r_l?
 
       24      A.    I think so, yeah.  They were __ they grew up
 
       25  together.

 

 
                                                              185

 
        1      Q.    Is she still in __ Regina still in Nebraska as
 
        2  far as you know?
 
        3      A.    I got a postcard from her.  I talked to her.
 
        4  She called.  That's the last I knew, I guess, was
 
        5  Nebraska.
 
        6      Q.    Were you aware that Deb had a conversation
 
        7  with her on the evening before her death?
 
        8      A.    No.
 
        9      Q.    Regina never indicated that to you at all?
 
       10      A.    No.  That's the first time I'm aware of it.
 
       11      Q.    Anybody in Don Schell's family have a history
 
       12  of mental illness of any type that you're aware of?
 
       13      A.    Not that I'm aware of.
 
       14      Q.    Were Don and Rita churchgoers?
 
       15      A.    Oh, yeah.  Yes.
 
       16      Q.    They would go to mass more than once a week?
 
       17      A.    No.  Just during Lent they would go for the
 
       18  daily, and then other than that was just Sunday or
 
       19  Saturday evening mass.
 
       20      Q.    Were they active in the church outside of
 
       21  attending the services?
 
       22      A.    Not anymore.  They __ Don was a Knights of
 
       23  Columbus for quite a few years, but I think he __ as
 
       24  usual in those things, he put in his time and just got
 
       25  tired of doing it.

 

 
                                                              186

 
        1      Q.    Was Father Ogg their regular minister?  Or
 
        2  priest, I should say.
 
        3      A.    I believe so, yeah.
 
        4      Q.    Was there ever any violence that you're aware
 
        5  of between Don and Rita?
 
        6      A.    Huh_uh, no.
 
        7      Q.    Never witnessed any or never heard of any?
 
        8      A.    No.  They had some arguments, but nothing __ I
 
        9  mean, nothing out of the ordinary.
 
       10      Q.    No physical abuse.
 
       11      A.    No.
 
       12      Q.    Who among Don and Rita supervised the kids
 
       13  more carefully, Michael and Deb, or could be classified
 
       14  as the disciplinarian?
 
       15      A.    I think probably Don.
 
       16      Q.    Did Rita ever have __ express any concern for
 
       17  the guns that were present in the house?
 
       18      A.    No.
 
       19      Q.    Do you think Don confided in you more than he
 
       20  did Rita about what was on his mind?
 
       21      A.    No.  I think he was probably __ I think he
 
       22  confided in her probably more in some ways.  But I think
 
       23  with him and I, it was more a comfort, kind of like two
 
       24  buddies more.  You know what I mean?
 
       25      Q.    Uh_huh.

 

 
                                                              187

 
        1      A.    I think that was the difference.  He probably
 
        2  felt comfortable more talking about, you know, that he
 
        3  wished he spent more time with the kids and probably
 
        4  just elaborated more with me because I had more time __
 
        5                  MR. VICKERY:  Sorry.
 
        6                  (Deposition proceedings recessed 2:55
 
        7                  p.m. to 2:59 p.m.)
 
        8      Q.    (BY MR. PREUSS)  Did Vern tell you when he had
 
        9  last seen either Don or Rita?
 
       10      A.    He mentioned something, but I don't remember.
 
       11  It was probably just the day before, I think is what he
 
       12  said, or the evening before.
 
       13      Q.    Did Don confide in Debbie?
 
       14      A.    Just in general?
 
       15      Q.    Yeah.
 
       16      A.    Yeah.  You know, he would talk to her about
 
       17  his depression or when he got down.  He actually felt
 
       18  pretty comfortable with all of us, for the most part.
 
       19  I'm sure there is things he didn't tell us, you know, he
 
       20  was feeling.  But, for the most part, it seemed like he
 
       21  was comfortable with all of us, including Deb.
 
       22                  MR. VICKERY:  You all keep going,
 
       23  Chuck.  I want to see if I can get this ironed out.
 
       24      Q.    (BY MR. PREUSS)  How did Don get along with
 
       25  Flo?

 

 
                                                              188

 
        1      A.    Got along well.
 
        2      Q.    How did Don get along with Neva and Bob
 
        3  Hardy?
 
        4      A.    They weren't really close as they were to, you
 
        5  know, the rest of the family, but they got along fine.
 
        6      Q.    Did Debbie ever tell you how Don disciplined
 
        7  his children, if that was necessary?
 
        8      A.    I think he spanked them or pretty much __ I
 
        9  think he just spank __ I think he spanked them.
 
       10      Q.    Did Don have a temper?
 
       11      A.    He had a temper, yeah.
 
       12      Q.    What would set him off?
 
       13      A.    I am trying to think.  I'm sorry.  I'm trying
 
       14  to think of an example.  Don liked things a certain
 
       15  way.  So, I mean, if, you know __ it's not even that.
 
       16  He was fairly manipulative, but when he got upset, he
 
       17  would definitely let you know he was upset.  And I think
 
       18  the thing about Don that I noticed is if you just
 
       19  listened to him and let him kind of rattle on for a
 
       20  little bit, he would be fine.  He would usually come __
 
       21  you know, but there wasn't any like in your face or, you
 
       22  know, he would definitely vocalize what was on his
 
       23  mind.  I guess, if anything, if something upset him, he
 
       24  would tell you what was on his mind and he __
 
       25      Q.    How would he tell you, swear words?  Would he

 

 
                                                              189

 
        1  yell at you?  How would he __
 
        2      A.    He never did it to me.  Yeah, I think he would
 
        3  swear a little bit.  And then, I mean, you know, like
 
        4  when somebody upsets me __ I'm sorry.  I'm just trying
 
        5  to give you an example __ I don't necessarily tell them
 
        6  exactly what they did wrong right away.  I mean, not __
 
        7  well, I'm sorry.  This is stupid.  I mean, I'll give you
 
        8  some stupid example.  But he would just flat tell you.
 
        9  I mean, if what you did __ if you ran over a flower, I
 
       10  mean, instead of saying, "Well, geez, couldn't you avoid
 
       11  the flower," he would say, "Why in the hell did you run
 
       12  over the flower?"  He was like Gerald that way, too.
 
       13  You know, they both were real direct, and __ I'm sorry.
 
       14  Does that even come close to answering?
 
       15      Q.    Did you ever see him express rage?
 
       16      A.    I would say __ I'm trying to think.  I have
 
       17  seen him upset, pretty upset with stuff, with work,
 
       18  with __ you know, the main times I saw him get that
 
       19  angry, it was usually work related.  And then there was
 
       20  the __ you know, I mean, they had tiffs between the two
 
       21  of them and they would fuss.  I would call it more
 
       22  fussing, you know, and they would get angry.  But it
 
       23  wouldn't be like __ you know, I'm just assuming like
 
       24  enraged, like I'm_crawling_out_of_my_skin rage.
 
       25      Q.    Yeah, pounding fist on the table or whacking

 

 
                                                              190

 
        1  the door or doing something.
 
        2      A.    I think he may have, you know, hit the table
 
        3  once or something, but nothing outside of that, you
 
        4  know, not like putting a fist through the door or
 
        5  throwing something.  I never saw any of that.
 
        6      Q.    When you realized in your own mind that
 
        7  something terrible had happened, did you think Don had
 
        8  done it?
 
        9      A.    Partially, yeah.
 
       10      Q.    Why?
 
       11      A.    Because there is no one else in the house and
 
       12  I guess I just go back to that.  Deb didn't like guns,
 
       13  Deb didn't __ it's that feeling of everything was going
 
       14  wrong.  You know what I mean?  That morning, through it,
 
       15  I just __ I guess, yeah, it went through my mind, you
 
       16  know.
 
       17      Q.    Did Deb ask Don to get rid of his guns at some
 
       18  time?
 
       19      A.    She may have, but I wasn't aware of her
 
       20  asking.
 
       21      Q.    How were you aware that Deb didn't like guns?
 
       22      A.    Oh, I mean, she just didn't go shooting.  We
 
       23  weren't the type of people that were, you know, big gun
 
       24  people.  I just don't like guns.  That's more of what I
 
       25  mean by not liking guns.  We just weren't gun people.

 

 
                                                              191

 
        1      Q.    When Debbie had an issue on her mind that was
 
        2  troubling her, did she tend to go to Don or would she go
 
        3  to Rita, leaving you outside the issue.
 
        4      A.    Yeah.  I would say Rita was probably more
 
        5  receptive, probably.
 
        6      Q.    You mentioned a little while ago that they
 
        7  would chat on the phone for a bit of time.
 
        8      A.    Yeah.
 
        9      Q.    How often did they chat back and forth?
 
       10      A.    Oh, there was times probably once a week, not
 
       11  every week, but Rita always liked to hear what was going
 
       12  on from both Mike and her.  And I guess through school,
 
       13  they kind of got in the habit of talking every Sunday,
 
       14  so they just kind of continued to do that, for the most
 
       15  part.
 
       16      Q.    How about Don?  Did Debbie have regular
 
       17  conversations with him?
 
       18      A.    Yeah.  They both __
 
       19      Q.    How often would they be?
 
       20      A.    They both talked to Deb.
 
       21      Q.    On the same conversation?
 
       22      A.    Oh.  Yeah.  You know, if Don answered the
 
       23  phone first, he would talk for five or ten minutes and
 
       24  then he would put Rita on and she would talk for an
 
       25  hour.

 

 
                                                              192

 
        1      Q.    Okay.  Let me do it this way.  Coming from __
 
        2  the call from Gillette to Billings, who would initiate
 
        3  those calls?
 
        4      A.    You know what?  I guess it was mainly Deb that
 
        5  called back.  If they were to call, sometimes __ geez,
 
        6  you know, I can't even give you a good answer on that.
 
        7      Q.    They spoke weekly.  On the calls that were
 
        8  generated from Gillette, did Rita call more often or did
 
        9  Don call more often?
 
       10      A.    I honestly don't know.  I would say probably
 
       11  maybe Rita, but then Don called periodically, too, you
 
       12  know, but probably Rita.  I'm sorry.
 
       13      Q.    Okay.  Do you know whether Don was planning to
 
       14  go back to the doctor on Friday morning?
 
       15      A.    That I don't know.  You know, I wasn't aware
 
       16  of anything like that.
 
       17      Q.    The first time that idea came in your mind was
 
       18  when I asked the question?
 
       19      A.    Of him going back Friday?  Yeah, yeah.  I __
 
       20      Q.    Nothing Deb said to you the night before
 
       21  indicated that?
 
       22      A.    No.  If she did, I just wasn't listen __ I
 
       23  assume she probably would have told me something like
 
       24  that.
 
       25      Q.    Refresh me if I made a mistake.  But did Vern

 

 
                                                              193

 
        1  call the real estate office?
 
        2      A.    Yeah, he did.
 
        3      Q.    And your understanding of information he got
 
        4  was that Rita was expected but didn't show up?
 
        5      A.    Right.
 
        6      Q.    Any discussion as to when Rita was expected?
 
        7      A.    No.  I just know she was supposed to be in
 
        8  there or that they had expected her.
 
        9      Q.    Did Don and Rita ever spend a weekend at your
 
       10  place in Billings?
 
       11      A.    Yeah.  Two or three times, they would come up.
 
       12      Q.    Did Don ever call Michael?
 
       13      A.    I don't know.  I know they did talk to him.
 
       14  And I think probably Rita was __ again, probably the
 
       15  same.  She probably called more.  Actually, Mike always
 
       16  called them.  I think they set up an 800 or there was
 
       17  something they set up so he could call, because I don't
 
       18  think he had a phone in his house.  So they really
 
       19  couldn't call him.  So he would call them.  So I think
 
       20  that was almost always that Mike called, because he just
 
       21  didn't have a phone.
 
       22      Q.    Was there any reason that Mike didn't have a
 
       23  phone?
 
       24      A.    I think he just didn't pay his bill one time
 
       25  and then they wouldn't let him hook it back up.

 

 
                                                              194

 
        1      Q.    That will do it.
 
        2                  MR. VICKERY:  That will do it every
 
        3  time.
 
        4      Q.    (BY MR. PREUSS)  Did Don have trouble
 
        5  sleeping?
 
        6      A.    He did, yeah.
 
        7      Q.    In general or when he got depressed?
 
        8      A.    When he got down.
 
        9      Q.    When he wasn't down, he didn't have any
 
       10  trouble sleeping?
 
       11      A.    No, other than the occasional night here and
 
       12  there.  Like I would just put that like we all have.
 
       13  Well, I don't sleep well anymore.  But not unusual.
 
       14      Q.    Did he get any medication to help him sleep
 
       15  from Doctor __ the doctor he saw on the Tuesday
 
       16  before __
 
       17      A.    Yeah.
 
       18      Q.    __ he died?
 
       19      A.    Yeah.
 
       20      Q.    How did you know that?
 
       21      A.    I don't know if I heard that before or after.
 
       22  I just know that the police have told me that he had
 
       23  whatever the sleeping medicine was and then they had __
 
       24  he had the Paxil.
 
       25      Q.    Did he ever use sleeping medication at all

 

 
                                                              195

 
        1  when he wasn't depressed?
 
        2      A.    No.  I __ no, no sleeping medication.  I think
 
        3  he tried __ he slept better when he exercised.  So when
 
        4  he got down, he tried to exercise first before, I think,
 
        5  before he tried that.
 
        6      Q.    When you say exercise, what are we talking
 
        7  about?
 
        8      A.    When he was depressed or down in the summer,
 
        9  he just really got in a good habit of walking, and that
 
       10  really __ of everything he did, that seemed to help the
 
       11  most.  He and Rita would go for a walk, and it kind of
 
       12  helped to sleep a little bit and just kind of helped him
 
       13  get back on track.
 
       14      Q.    Would they go on walks when he was feeling
 
       15  well?
 
       16      A.    In the summertime, yeah.  In the wintertime,
 
       17  it was real hard.  They didn't a lot, no.
 
       18      Q.    Did they go at the same time when they went on
 
       19  walks?
 
       20      A.    Yeah.
 
       21      Q.    Did they go on the same route?
 
       22      A.    I think they would kind of mix it up.
 
       23  Sometimes they would walk by Barth's, which is a car
 
       24  dealership, or sometimes they would walk over by the
 
       25  hospital path.  So, no.  I'm sorry.  No, they didn't

 

 
                                                              196

 
        1  walk the same path.  They had a couple.
 
        2      Q.    Was it your understanding that the second week
 
        3  that Deb was at her parents' house, that Don was not
 
        4  working that week?
 
        5      A.    For sure I knew he wasn't working that week
 
        6  and __
 
        7      Q.    Possibly the week before?
 
        8      A.    __ possibly the __ yeah.
 
        9      Q.    Did Don ever express to you that second week
 
       10  how he was feeling?
 
       11      A.    Just so we're on the same week, I drop them
 
       12  off and when I go down that __ okay.  So, no, I didn't
 
       13  talk to him hardly at all that second week.
 
       14      Q.    Did you talk to him at all?
 
       15      A.    He answered the phone once on Monday maybe, or
 
       16  Sunday when I got home, I think it was.  And he just __
 
       17  I said, "How are you doing?"
 
       18            He said, "Fine."  He said, "Let me get Deb for
 
       19  you."  And then whenever that next call was was when
 
       20  I __ he answered the phone and said, "Well, let me just
 
       21  give you Deb."  And I think that was that __ that was
 
       22  Thursday when he did that.
 
       23            And he said nothing.  He just goes __ I said
 
       24  "Hi, Don.  How are you doing?"
 
       25            He goes, "Fine.  Let me get Deb."  And that

 

 
                                                              197

 
        1  was it.
 
        2      Q.    Which was less than you normally would have
 
        3  expected.
 
        4      A.    Yeah, yeah.
 
        5      Q.    Did you talk every night that week after you
 
        6  went back that Sunday?
 
        7      A.    Yeah.  At least once, definitely every night,
 
        8  and sometimes during the day, I would call her and see
 
        9  how she was doing.
 
       10      Q.    And you would call her at the house.  Right?
 
       11      A.    Yeah.
 
       12      Q.    Was Don in one of his three depression periods
 
       13  when you were living with them before you got married?
 
       14      A.    I'm sorry.  Was he in one of his depression
 
       15  stages?
 
       16      Q.    Yeah, one of the three that we talked about.
 
       17      A.    No.  We were still living in Gillette but we
 
       18  had already moved over to Indian Hills, the apartments.
 
       19      Q.    Have you ever heard of the Piedmont
 
       20  Psychological Practice in Sheridan?
 
       21      A.    No.
 
       22      Q.    Any knowledge at all whether Don was admitted
 
       23  to that institution?
 
       24      A.    No.
 
       25      Q.    In the period of his third depression, was Don

 

 
                                                              198

 
        1  worried at all about his job and being able to maintain
 
        2  it?
 
        3      A.    Yeah.
 
        4      Q.    What was his concern there?
 
        5      A.    I think he just felt that __ he did a good
 
        6  job.  So I didn't see any problem with it.  He just
 
        7  seemed worried that they might feel that this
 
        8  depression, you know, him taking time off would just
 
        9  look bad on him.  He just wanted to do the job.  He
 
       10  didn't want to risk it because he really enjoyed what he
 
       11  did, actually.  He often told me he thought that was the
 
       12  best deal, best job he had ever.  So I think he was just
 
       13  worried about them looking down on him because of him
 
       14  taking time off because he was down.
 
       15      Q.    Before that third depressive episode, was Don
 
       16  concerned at all that the job would evaporate or it
 
       17  wouldn't be there for him anymore?
 
       18      A.    I don't think so, no.  He always worried about
 
       19  it a little __ not really worried about it, but he would
 
       20  go, "God, I hope this lasts forever."  That's all he
 
       21  would say, because he liked it so.  It was easy money
 
       22  for him.
 
       23      Q.    Do you know a Joe Hallock?
 
       24      A.    Yeah, I do.
 
       25      Q.    Who was he?

 

 
                                                              199

 
        1      A.    He handled the estate for Mimi, I believe,
 
        2  Gerald's estate.
 
        3      Q.    Was he involved at all with you on the evening
 
        4  that you discovered this tragedy?
 
        5      A.    Afterwards, I found out he was downstairs, but
 
        6  the police weren't letting him in, and I had no idea
 
        7  that he was down there.  I didn't even know who Joe
 
        8  Hallock was, to tell you the truth, at that point.
 
        9      Q.    When did you come to the realization that Don
 
       10  had killed his wife, your wife, his granddaughter and
 
       11  then himself?
 
       12      A.    I'm sorry.  I'm just trying __ when I was in
 
       13  the house over at Mimi's and we were crying, basically
 
       14  holding each other.
 
       15      Q.    That would be the second day.
 
       16      A.    (Nodded head.)  She said, "I can't believe Don
 
       17  did this."  And I think that's when it finally hit home,
 
       18  because I think they had basically found there was no
 
       19  other explanation.  And I think I was hoping for __ this
 
       20  is kind of sick __ hoping for something different on a
 
       21  deal like this.
 
       22      Q.    Up to that time, were you suspicious that it
 
       23  was Don?
 
       24      A.    Yeah, because the house was locked.  You know,
 
       25  there was no __ yeah.

 

 
                                                              200

 
        1      Q.    Did you have any trepidation or concern at all
 
        2  about Debbie's safety in the house of your
 
        3  father_in_law?
 
        4      A.    No.  If I had even had a slight hint, I would
 
        5  have come down and picked them up.  That's the guilt
 
        6  I'll live with for the rest of my life.
 
        7      Q.    You don't remember telling one of the EMTs
 
        8  that, and this is a quote, "I knew I shouldn't have let
 
        9  her stay with them," end quote?
 
       10      A.    Where that came from was I tried to talk Deb
 
       11  into coming back home the weekend before.  I said, "Why
 
       12  don't you just come home?"  It was just __ we were
 
       13  talking about it, and my preference was that she could
 
       14  just come back for a while.  This is when we were
 
       15  deciding what to do.  And my reason was, if I would have
 
       16  just taken her home, she would be alive.
 
       17            I have no idea what I meant by that, but I'll
 
       18  tell you that's what went through my head was, if I had
 
       19  just come down the day before, if I had just went that
 
       20  night when I woke __ or the morning when I woke up, if I
 
       21  would have __
 
       22      Q.    How did Flo or Mimi respond to the tragedy?
 
       23      A.    That poor woman.  She was about like me.
 
       24  She __ I mean, honestly, there is no other way to
 
       25  describe her than you just don't know what's going on.

 

 
                                                              201

 
        1  You cease to exist, basically.  You just __ you sit
 
        2  there and you go, "My God, you know, they are gone."
 
        3  And that's all __ you know, I didn't even know I was
 
        4  screaming.  People said I was screaming.  I didn't
 
        5  know.  And I think Mimi was probably the same way.
 
        6      Q.    Did she blame Don at all?
 
        7      A.    She just couldn't believe that it happened at
 
        8  first, and then I think it was that second day she just
 
        9  said, "There is no way Don would have done this."  And
 
       10  that's all we kept saying at the house was, I just
 
       11  can't __ I mean __
 
       12      Q.    If there was any difference, who between Don
 
       13  and Rita were more excited about Alyssa?
 
       14      A.    Don was.  Used to joke all the time, he was
 
       15  like an old hen.
 
       16      Q.    Was Rita spending more time at work than Don
 
       17  was?
 
       18      A.    I would say that's a fair statement, yeah.
 
       19      Q.    For how long had that been going on?
 
       20      A.    It happened a couple times where she would get
 
       21  like maybe three or four listings, and then she would
 
       22  get really busy.  And the listings would trail off and
 
       23  then she would be home for a while.  And it actually
 
       24  kind of went with how many listings she had, as far as I
 
       25  know.  I mean, I don't know if she was going all the

 

 
                                                              202

 
        1  time to the office.
 
        2      Q.    Did Don drink at all?
 
        3      A.    Boy, I think in the last __ after he retired,
 
        4  I can count the beers on one hand probably.  And usually
 
        5  he would have one when I came, and he would just have
 
        6  one and I would have two.  And that wasn't even every
 
        7  time.  He would just go grab me a beer.  So, not much.
 
        8      Q.    I'm sorry if I'm repeating myself, but on the
 
        9  second depression, he saw a different doctor from whom
 
       10  he saw the first time.  And you said he got some
 
       11  medication, to your knowledge?
 
       12      A.    Yeah.
 
       13      Q.    On the second time?
 
       14      A.    I think so, yeah.
 
       15      Q.    And it didn't work as well for him?  Is that
 
       16  right?
 
       17      A.    Yeah.  It just made him jittery, I think.
 
       18      Q.    That was the jittery discussion.
 
       19      A.    Yeah.
 
       20      Q.    Sorry.  I had forgotten.
 
       21      A.    That's all right.
 
       22      Q.    Who did Rita confide in?  I don't mean to
 
       23  confine it to among yourselves but anybody.
 
       24      A.    Right.  You know, I honestly don't know.
 
       25      Q.    Any idea as to what income Rita was making

 

 
                                                              203

 
        1  from her practice?
 
        2      A.    I know she did real well that last year.  She
 
        3  was close to being, I think, in, I think they call it,
 
        4  the million dollar club, which doesn't __
 
        5      Q.    In terms of gross sales.
 
        6      A.    Of gross sales, right.  So I assume she did
 
        7  pretty well in that year.  She busted her butt.  You
 
        8  know, she did a real good job.
 
        9      Q.    Did she enjoy it?
 
       10      A.    I think so, yeah.  She felt kind of proud of
 
       11  herself.  I mean, she just finished high school and that
 
       12  was it.  She went to a training school, and she had
 
       13  become __ you know, in her own right, she had become
 
       14  successful as far as we were concerned, all of us.  I
 
       15  think she kind of was very proud of that.
 
       16      Q.    Was Don proud of that?
 
       17      A.    Yeah.
 
       18      Q.    Did Don ever express concern about having
 
       19  enough money for retirement?
 
       20      A.    Yeah.  He __ I think that only came up really
 
       21  when he wasn't sure if he was going to make his
 
       22  retirement with Occidental Petroleum.  He would say if
 
       23  he could just make it to that and they didn't take away
 
       24  his vestment or __ I don't understand how it was
 
       25  working.  But he was like within about a year of

 

 
                                                              204

 
        1  retiring when that whole thing came up.  And that's the
 
        2  only time it was really an issue.  And once that was
 
        3  taken care of, it never really was a __ but there for a
 
        4  while, he was pretty concerned.  You know, I mean, he
 
        5  put in a lot of years at Oxy, and he was worried he was
 
        6  going to get screwed out of it.
 
        7      Q.    And once he learned that he wasn't, then that
 
        8  calmed him down about financial __
 
        9      A.    Yeah.
 
       10      Q.    __ issues?
 
       11      A.    You know, he had that job lined up then and he
 
       12  knew things were going to be just fine.  Rita was doing
 
       13  good.  And I think that __ as far as I knew, that took
 
       14  care of any concerns he had as far as retirement.  The
 
       15  house was almost paid off if not paid off.
 
       16      Q.    Did you see any change in the relationship
 
       17  between Don and Rita between the time you first met
 
       18  them, which I think was in '89 __
 
       19      A.    Yeah.
 
       20      Q.    __ up to the time of their deaths?
 
       21      A.    Yeah.  I think both of them had just kind of
 
       22  become, as far as I was concerned, a lot more mellow.
 
       23  Don mellowed quite a bit after he retired and, you know,
 
       24  Rita had started the real estate or started doing real
 
       25  estate.  And she had become kind of more confident.  And

 

 
                                                              205

 
        1  is seemed like they __ the impression I got, you know,
 
        2  they worked hard to get where they were at and it just
 
        3  seemed like they had kind of taken a __ you know, just
 
        4  feel like someone has taken a deep breath and said,
 
        5  "Boy, isn't this good?  Life is good."  And other than
 
        6  that depression, you know, for the most part, I think it
 
        7  was, as far as I was aware.  And that's the change I
 
        8  think I saw most, which is just kind of a mellowing and
 
        9  just happy with where they were at.
 
       10      Q.    So would you characterize their relationship
 
       11  between one another as stronger over the years?
 
       12      A.    I would say so.
 
       13      Q.    Closer?
 
       14      A.    Yeah, I would say so.  I think Don learned to
 
       15  open up a lot more, and the one thing, the benefit from
 
       16  that first bout of depression was he became a lot more
 
       17  open about how he was feeling.  And with all of us, he
 
       18  became more __ Don was more involved with, you know,
 
       19  day_to_day things like, oh, well, you do get down, you
 
       20  know, and I think before he didn't have time because he
 
       21  was so busy working, trying to make sure everything was
 
       22  okay.
 
       23            Do you know what I mean?  I guess maybe I'm
 
       24  not being real clear, rambling worse.
 
       25      Q.    So as far as you could detect, there were no

 

 
                                                              206

 
        1  pressures in the relationship between Don and Rita.
 
        2      A.    No.  They were happily married.
 
        3      Q.    Have you __ well, do you know whether Flo or
 
        4  anybody else from the family besides you spoke to Don or
 
        5  Rita or Debbie the evening before the tragedy?
 
        6      A.    I know Mimi had spoken to Rita, but I don't
 
        7  know if that was the night before.  The only one I'm
 
        8  aware of is myself.
 
        9      Q.    So with respect to Mimi's conversation with
 
       10  Rita, do you have any understanding as to what was said
 
       11  between the two?
 
       12      A.    No.  And the only reason I say that is I think
 
       13  when we were all talking about what was going on, there
 
       14  was a lot of stuff being thrown around.
 
       15      Q.    Was Don on any other regular __ was Don on any
 
       16  regular medication that you are aware of excluding
 
       17  anything that he might have been taking during the three
 
       18  depressive episodes you have told us about?
 
       19      A.    No.
 
       20      Q.    When Don did have these depressive episodes,
 
       21  you indicated, I think, that they would last roughly two
 
       22  weeks, give or take a week?
 
       23      A.    Yeah.
 
       24      Q.    Is that right?
 
       25      A.    Yeah.

 

 
                                                              207

 
        1      Q.    And when he had those, you said he tended to
 
        2  become more introspective and quiet?
 
        3      A.    No.  Actually, I guess he would become more
 
        4  quiet and he would stay in the house and he wouldn't
 
        5  leave, but, for the most part, he would talk to me and
 
        6  Rita and Deb more and actively tried to participate in
 
        7  getting better.
 
        8      Q.    So he was more communicative then?
 
        9      A.    Well, yeah, he almost was.  And he would sit
 
       10  there and say, you know, "I wish I hadn't had" __ he
 
       11  would talk about his life, you know, and how important,
 
       12  you know, children were and how happy __ I guess I'm
 
       13  just talking about the last one now, but things like,
 
       14  "Oh, I'm so glad my family is here."  It was almost
 
       15  like he became more open with us but more closed out
 
       16  just until he started feeling better.  You know, didn't
 
       17  go to work.
 
       18      Q.    Stayed in the house, didn't go outside.
 
       19      A.    Right, or just, you know, if it was summer, he
 
       20  might try to start walking.  But since it was winter, I
 
       21  think he tried to just do exercises or something inside.
 
       22      Q.    How about his appetite during those times?
 
       23      A.    You know, it wasn't real good.  He would eat
 
       24  but I don't think it was __
 
       25      Q.    So he would eat less?

 

 
                                                              208

 
        1      A.    Yeah, I think so.
 
        2      Q.    Not hungry.
 
        3      A.    Yeah, yeah.  I don't think so.
 
        4      Q.    And you mentioned he had more problems with
 
        5  sleep.
 
        6      A.    Yeah.
 
        7      Q.    Did he have trouble going to sleep?
 
        8      A.    Yeah.  I mean, I think sometimes, from what I
 
        9  understood, it was going to sleep and sometimes he would
 
       10  just wake up and not go back to sleep.
 
       11      Q.    What did he do when he woke up?
 
       12      A.    I think he would try and read.
 
       13      Q.    Was he able to take care of his personal
 
       14  hygiene, eat all right, dress all right during those
 
       15  periods by himself?
 
       16      A.    Yeah.  From what I'm aware, I don't think he
 
       17  had __ he still looked fine.  He would wear jeans and
 
       18  house slippers kinds of things.  But, no, he was fine
 
       19  that way.
 
       20      Q.    And you would describe him as feeling down or
 
       21  low?
 
       22      A.    Yeah.
 
       23      Q.    Was there anything about the way he looked
 
       24  that caused you to believe that or to form that opinion?
 
       25      A.    Just kind of the demeanor, you know, that he

 

 
                                                              209

 
        1  wasn't going outside, and I knew he was troubled.
 
        2      Q.    When he had those episodes, did he feel better
 
        3  in the morning, worse at night, or was there any change
 
        4  in how he felt during those periods of depression as to
 
        5  what time of day?
 
        6      A.    Well, you know, if he had a hard time
 
        7  sleeping, you would usually take a nap later in the
 
        8  morning, and then it seemed like he would do pretty good
 
        9  until bedtime, and he would go to bed.  And I honestly
 
       10  don't know.  I just heard him say he had a hard time
 
       11  sleeping.  So I don't know if it got harder for him at
 
       12  night really or __
 
       13      Q.    But he was better after the nap than he was
 
       14  before the nap.
 
       15      A.    Yeah, I think so.  He would wake up and he
 
       16  would just be tired.
 
       17      Q.    Did he need assurance and reassurance from the
 
       18  family members?
 
       19      A.    I think that we all loved him about is all we
 
       20  did.  We didn't __ he never got into any other __ he
 
       21  never asked for it, but we just __ I think it was just,
 
       22  we automatically did it, just kind of supporting him.
 
       23      Q.    Well, would you say things like, you know,
 
       24  "Don't worry about it, Don.  You know, you have had
 
       25  this before and you can work your way out of it"?

 

 
                                                              210

 
        1      A.    Oh, yeah.  No, that was __ the one thing I was
 
        2  sure of when this started was that he was going to be
 
        3  fine, you know, it was just going to be the same thing
 
        4  and he was going to be fine.  And I told him that.  You
 
        5  know, I said, "You know what you got to do."
 
        6      Q.    Did he ever tell you on any one of these
 
        7  episodes that his heart was beating fast?
 
        8      A.    He may have, yeah.
 
        9      Q.    Yes or you don't know?
 
       10      A.    You know what?  I don't know, it would be
 
       11  better to say.
 
       12      Q.    How about his ability to think?  Did he think
 
       13  as well in terms of being able to add figures, do
 
       14  crossword puzzles, whatever?
 
       15      A.    No.  He was distracted and, you know, just
 
       16  didn't __ no, he couldn't.
 
       17      Q.    His concentration level was down?
 
       18      A.    Yeah.
 
       19      Q.    Did he talk about the future with any concern
 
       20  when he had these episodes?
 
       21      A.    No, no.  I mean, he would say stuff like it
 
       22  would be neat when Alyssa is at school and things like
 
       23  that, but not really like, oh, I'm not __ you mean like
 
       24  the future being a concern for him, like if he __
 
       25      Q.    Yeah.

 

 
                                                              211

 
        1      A.    No, not really.  No, he didn't.
 
        2      Q.    Did he ever say to you at any time that he
 
        3  thought he would be better off if he were dead?
 
        4      A.    No.  He never said that to me.
 
        5      Q.    Did he ever express anything that you
 
        6  interpreted as suicidal ideations or thoughts?
 
        7      A.    No.
 
        8      Q.    How was his decision_making ability when he
 
        9  was feeling down?
 
       10      A.    I think the same as his concentration.  He was
 
       11  just kind of distracted.
 
       12      Q.    Have you done any reading yourself on Paxil?
 
       13      A.    Yeah.
 
       14      Q.    What have you done?
 
       15      A.    There was a website dedicated to __ I don't
 
       16  remember the doctor's name.  She does __ it was about a
 
       17  concern of how Paxil and Prozac and some of these other
 
       18  drugs in some people just causes a bad reaction.  I
 
       19  think I was looking for some kind of __ you know,
 
       20  something that would put me a direction of what __
 
       21      Q.    When did you first start looking for answers
 
       22  about the medication?
 
       23      A.    It wasn't an act of like I started one day and
 
       24  did it the next.  I would say after the police had
 
       25  mentioned to me when I came down and picked up Deb and

 

 
                                                              212

 
        1  Alyssa's stuff, once they mentioned to me that Paxil was
 
        2  in his blood and I had just __ I guess that was just
 
        3  something I made my own deduction, I guess.
 
        4      Q.    Okay.  Then you clicked on to the Internet and
 
        5  surfed the web for Paxil.
 
        6      A.    Yeah.
 
        7      Q.    What was the name of the website?
 
        8      A.    I could probably get it for you.
 
        9      Q.    How many times have you checked it?
 
       10      A.    That time I just read through the material
 
       11  that this lady had on there.  In fact, someone had
 
       12  printed it off for me, and then I got on the website and
 
       13  read it myself, too.  So I have got the website at home
 
       14  if I dig through the papers, but __
 
       15      Q.    Who printed it out for you?
 
       16      A.    I don't know if it was my brother or who,
 
       17  actually.
 
       18                  MR. PREUSS:  Andy, I would like that if
 
       19  he has got it at home.
 
       20                  MR. VICKERY:  Was it drugawareness dot
 
       21  org?
 
       22                  THE DEPONENT:  I think it was a woman
 
       23  who __
 
       24                  MR. VICKERY:  Ann Tracy?
 
       25                  THE DEPONENT:  Yeah, that's it.  She has

 

 
                                                              213

 
        1  like different affidavits __ not affidavits but she's
 
        2  got __
 
        3                  MR. VICKERY:  Stories.
 
        4                  THE DEPONENT:  Stories.
 
        5                  MR. GORMAN:  What's the name of it?
 
        6                  MR. VICKERY:  Drugawareness dot org.
 
        7                  MR. GORMAN:  One word?
 
        8                  MR. VICKERY:  Yeah.
 
        9                  MR. PREUSS:  We would appreciate
 
       10  getting, if you would give a copy to Andy of what you
 
       11  have got, a hard copy.
 
       12                  THE DEPONENT:  If I have got it, I
 
       13  will.
 
       14      Q.    (BY MR. PREUSS)  Have you done anything other
 
       15  than to read that website printout on the web itself?
 
       16      A.    Other than that, no.  I have had lots of
 
       17  conversations with no one that is expert, I guess.
 
       18      Q.    With experts or __
 
       19      A.    No.  I said no one that's really experts.
 
       20      Q.    Other than your attorney, who have you
 
       21  discussed the subject of what Paxil and other
 
       22  medications may __
 
       23      A.    My mom.
 
       24      Q.    __ do?
 
       25      A.    My mom and I have talked quite a bit about

 

 
                                                              214

 
        1  it.  I always felt that there __ we always felt like
 
        2  there should be some way to give people a chance to try
 
        3  and rectify these things without some magic pill, you
 
        4  know, that can cause side __ this is my personal __ can
 
        5  cause side effects that can cause somebody to totally do
 
        6  something they can __ irrevocable, you know.  And, you
 
        7  know, I guess with her, it's more __ you know, we both
 
        8  feel that that's really __ even given Don's quirks, even
 
        9  given Don's temper at times, none of it makes him a
 
       10  murderer.  I mean, I just can't equate the Don I knew
 
       11  and put the equal sign and say, he did this.  I just
 
       12  can't, you know.  And he started acting __ as far as I
 
       13  know, he started acting strange when he started taking
 
       14  it.  And to me, that just __ that's the catalyst to get
 
       15  him from the Don I knew to the Don that did what he
 
       16  did.
 
       17      Q.    Other than that evening, what did he do that
 
       18  you think was strange?
 
       19      A.    Well, when he didn't talk to me, the fact that
 
       20  Deb was like, "Well, I hope you're coming.  You know,
 
       21  I'll be glad when you come down," and was kind of
 
       22  like __ I said, "How is Don doing?"  She didn't say
 
       23  anything.  You know, I guess, other than that, I mean, I
 
       24  can't really give you anything else.  I __
 
       25      Q.    Okay.  It would be that he passed the phone

 

 
                                                              215

 
        1  too quickly on Thursday night without chatting you up a
 
        2  bit.
 
        3      A.    Yeah.
 
        4      Q.    It would be that Deb didn't give you a very
 
        5  expansive answer as to how Don was doing, but you
 
        6  acknowledge that he was present in the room as well.
 
        7  Right?
 
        8      A.    Yeah, I think he was.
 
        9      Q.    Anything besides those two things?
 
       10      A.    I guess not.  I mean __ well, yeah, the fact
 
       11  that he took a gun out and put it in a nine_month_old
 
       12  girl's mouth, yeah, I guess that would be my final
 
       13  thing.
 
       14      Q.    I did limit it to before __
 
       15      A.    Oh, I'm sorry.  Yeah.
 
       16      Q.    I didn't mean to have you bring that up.
 
       17            Did you read the autopsy reports?
 
       18      A.    No.
 
       19      Q.    Coroner's report?
 
       20      A.    (Shook head.)
 
       21      Q.    So somebody told you that?
 
       22      A.    Yeah.  My mom had talked to __ I stepped out
 
       23  of the room and the police said they would give
 
       24  information to my mom, actually.  And I had to send a
 
       25  death certificate and you unfortunately did look at it.

 

 
                                                              216

 
        1      Q.    Who besides your mom have you talked to about
 
        2  Paxil, excluding your attorney, of course?
 
        3      A.    My brother.  And really, those conversations
 
        4  were more, how would you avoid something like this
 
        5  happening.  I mean, what __ you know, now that I have
 
        6  lost everybody, you know, and given my feelings about
 
        7  it, however many people may disagree with me, it's still
 
        8  how I feel about it and I'm not going to change how I
 
        9  feel.  And somehow there has got to be a way that
 
       10  somebody __ I can't find the strength right now to do
 
       11  it.  So our conversations are always, well, what could I
 
       12  do that would somehow make Deb and Alyssa's life and Don
 
       13  and Rita's life not a waste and one of these things that
 
       14  slowly gets forgotten?  Maybe there is some __ I don't
 
       15  know.  I'm sorry.  I guess it's more, how could this
 
       16  have been avoided.  There has never been a big debate on
 
       17  Paxil, per se.  It's just been __ I think it's
 
       18  acknowledged from my brother, my mom.  That's probably
 
       19  about it.
 
       20      Q.    Are you in any activist groups with respect to
 
       21  Paxil or other drugs like that?
 
       22      A.    I'm lucky to get my life back where it is
 
       23  now.  I just don't have the energy.  I think at some
 
       24  point I would like to __ I would like to get involved
 
       25  somehow.  I just don't want to see Deb and Alyssa end up

 

 
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        1  as being a tombstone and everybody go, "Who are they
 
        2  again?" you know.
 
        3      Q.    Do you have any thoughts as to how you might
 
        4  do that when you have the strength to do it, what you
 
        5  might do?
 
        6      A.    No.
 
        7      Q.    Have you ever discussed your tragedy with the
 
        8  media at all?
 
        9      A.    No.  They actually discussed it with me.  I
 
       10  just can't stand the media on that.  The papers __ I
 
       11  think there is probably good media and bad media, and I
 
       12  definitely got a dose of the bad media.
 
       13            This isn't something you can just have some
 
       14  quick byline on.  I think it's something that needs a
 
       15  little bit more __ I think there is probably people I
 
       16  would discuss it with if they gave it the attention it
 
       17  needed.  Do you know what I mean?  I just don't think
 
       18  like some reporters that __
 
       19      Q.    You mean a more thoughtful, in_depth __
 
       20      A.    Right.
 
       21      Q.    __ analysis of the situation as opposed to a
 
       22  flashy headline.
 
       23      A.    Right.
 
       24      Q.    Did you read the articles that came out in the
 
       25  papers afterwards?

 

 
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        1      A.    No.
 
        2      Q.    You haven't to this day?
 
        3      A.    No.  I got some information from my family.
 
        4  They let me in on some of what was going on.  They
 
        5  buffered me pretty good, though.
 
        6      Q.    When did you first consider going to an
 
        7  attorney about it?
 
        8      A.    It was, I think, about eight months after it
 
        9  happened, six months.
 
       10      Q.    What caused you to do that?
 
       11      A.    Honestly, it was I wanted someone to look into
 
       12  it and give me some answers that I was looking for.  And
 
       13  I wasn't capable of meandering through everything that
 
       14  needed to be done myself.
 
       15      Q.    And did you search out an attorney on your
 
       16  own?
 
       17      A.    Yeah.  I had help of a friend in LA who is an
 
       18  attorney, and at that point my dad made some
 
       19  recommendations.
 
       20      Q.    Your natural father?
 
       21      A.    Yeah.  And that's about the start of it,
 
       22  really.  And then __
 
       23                  THE DEPONENT:  Do you want me to go
 
       24  through it all?
 
       25                  MR. VICKERY:  Sure.  If he wants to

 

 
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        1  know, tell him.
 
        2      A.    And then the Spence law firm had looked at it
 
        3  through a friend of a friend type deal.  They got the
 
        4  file down there, and they looked at who they felt was
 
        5  the most qualified, and that's how I ended up with
 
        6  Andy.
 
        7      Q.    (BY MR. PREUSS)  Okay.  That ended up about
 
        8  eight months after the __
 
        9      A.    I think so, yeah.
 
       10      Q.    __ event?
 
       11            Tell me a little bit about your father.  I
 
       12  don't think I asked you about that.  Where does he
 
       13  reside?
 
       14      A.    Oh.  My real dad?
 
       15      Q.    Yeah.
 
       16      A.    He's __ right now, I don't know.  He's in
 
       17  Seattle being treated for something.  We have had a
 
       18  long_term on_and_off_again relationship.  He speaks with
 
       19  my brother.  So he's out in Seattle right now.  He spent
 
       20  most of his time in Hawaii after I had come back and
 
       21  spent part of the year up at Flathead.  And I have
 
       22  fallen out of touch with him again, for separate issues
 
       23  from this.  My father and I sometimes don't get along
 
       24  very well.
 
       25      Q.    What's his occupation?

 

 
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        1      A.    He was a CPA.
 
        2      Q.    Oh.  That's right.  You did tell me that.
 
        3      A.    Yeah.
 
        4      Q.    So your dad communicates more with your
 
        5  brother than with you?
 
        6      A.    Yeah.
 
        7      Q.    Is that true?
 
        8      A.    It all start __ if you want to know, at
 
        9  Christmastime, I didn't want to go up to __ I wanted to
 
       10  be by myself.  I didn't want to be around anybody this
 
       11  last Christmas.  I just had a really hard time.  And my
 
       12  dad got mad and thought I was just ignoring him.  It
 
       13  started from there and got worse.
 
       14      Q.    Prior to that time, had you seen him on a more
 
       15  regular basis?
 
       16      A.    Periodically, yeah.
 
       17      Q.    Just to make sure, the only reading you have
 
       18  done about Paxil and issues related to Paxil are the
 
       19  Internet.  Is that right?
 
       20      A.    That's correct.
 
       21                  MR. PREUSS:  Let me take a break for a
 
       22  minute here.
 
       23                  (Deposition proceedings recessed 3:54
 
       24                  p.m. to 4:09 p.m.)
 
       25                  MR. PREUSS:  I have no further

 

 
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        1  questions.
 
        2                  MR. GORMAN:  I don't expect you'll want
 
        3  me asking any.  I guess I don't either.
 
        4                  MR. VICKERY:  If there is something
 
        5  killing you to ask, go ahead.  I don't either.  I don't
 
        6  think that there is anything that needs clearing up
 
        7  here, to my knowledge.
 
        8                  (The signature of the deponent hereto
 
        9                  was waived.)
 
       10                  (Deposition proceedings concluded 4:10
 
       11                  p.m., December 4, 2000.)
 
       12
 
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        1                   C E R T I F I C A T E
 
        2
 
        3            I, John E. Walz, a Registered Merit Reporter
 
        4  and a Notary Public of the State of Wyoming, do hereby
 
        5  certify that Timothy Tobin was by me first duly sworn to
 
        6  testify to the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
 
        7  the truth;
 
        8            That the foregoing transcript, consisting of
 
        9  221 typewritten pages, is a true record of the testimony
 
       10  given by the said deponent, together with all other
 
       11  proceedings herein contained.
 
       12            IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my
 
       13  hand and affixed my notarial seal this 26th day of
 
       14  December 2000.
 
       15
 
       16
 
       17
                                 _________________________________
       18                                  JOHN E. WALZ
                                     Registered Merit Reporter
       19
 
       20
 
       21
 
       22
 
       23
 
       24  My commission expires February 3, 2002.
 
       25