1234 1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 2 DISTRICT OF WYOMING 3 -------------------------------------------------------- 4 THE ESTATES OF DEBORAH MARIE TOBIN and ALYSSA ANN TOBIN, deceased, by 5 TIMOTHY JOHN TOBIN, personal representative; and THE ESTATES OF 6 DONALD JACK SCHELL and RITA CHARLOTTE SCHELL, deceased, 7 by NEVA KAY HARDY, personal representative, 8 Plaintiffs, Case No. 00-CV-0025-BEA 9 vs. May 30, 2001 Volume VII 10 SMITHKLINE BEECHAM PHARMACEUTICALS, 11 Defendant. ----------------------------------------------------------- 12 13 14 TRANSCRIPT OF TRIAL PROCEEDINGS 15 16 Transcript of Trial Proceedings in the above-entitled 17 matter before the Honorable William C. Beaman, Magistrate, 18 and a jury of eight, at Cheyenne, Wyoming, commencing on the 19 21st day of May, 2001. 20 21 22 23 Court Reporter: Ms. Janet Dew-Harris, RPR, FCRR Official Court Reporter 24 2120 Capitol Avenue Room 2228 25 Cheyenne, Wyoming 82001 (307) 635-3884 1235 1 A P P E A R A N C E S 2 For the Plaintiffs: MR. JAMES E. FITZGERALD Attorney at Law 3 THE FITZGERALD LAW FIRM 2108 Warren Avenue 4 Cheyenne, Wyoming 82001 5 MR. ANDY VICKERY Attorney at Law 6 VICKERY & WALDNER, LLP 2929 Allen Parkway 7 Suite 2410 Houston, Texas 77019 8 For the Defendant: MR. THOMAS G. GORMAN 9 MS. MISHA E. WESTBY Attorneys at Law 10 HIRST & APPLEGATE, P.C. 1720 Carey Avenue 11 Suite 200 Cheyenne, Wyoming 82001 12 MR. CHARLES F. PREUSS 13 MR. VERN ZVOLEFF Attorneys at Law 14 PREUSS SHANAGHER ZVOLEFF & ZIMMER 225 Bush Street 15 15th Floor San Francisco, California 94104 16 MS. TAMAR P. HALPERN, Ph.D. 17 Attorney at Law PHILLIPS LYTLE HITCHCOCK 18 BLAINE & HUBER, LLP 3400 HSBC Center 19 Buffalo, New York 14203 20 INDEX TO WITNESSES DEFENDANT'S PAGE 21 KENNETH TARDIFF, M.D. Direct - Mr. Preuss 1238 22 Cross - Mr. Fitzgerald 1266 23 STEVEN ROZIER Direct - Mr. Gorman 1280 24 Cross - Mr. Fitzgerald 1340 25 1236 1 INDEX TO WITNESSES CONTINUED 2 DEFENDANT'S PAGE KIRTIKUMAR PATEL, M.D. 3 Direct - Mr. Preuss 1345 Cross - Mr. Vickery 1365 4 Redirect - Mr. Preuss 1379 5 KEVIN NELSON Direct - Mr. Gorman 1380 6 Cross - Mr. Fitzgerald 1393 Redirect - Mr. Gorman 1398 7 Recross - Mr. Fitzgerald 1399 8 VICKIE HAYNES Direct - Mr. Gorman 1401 9 Cross - Mr. Vickery 1407 10 RONALD WAGNER Deposition of Ronald Wagner Read 1425 11 MARK SUHANY, M.D. 12 Deposition of Mark Suhany, M.D. Read 1455 13 PLAINTIFFS' PEGGY DEANS 14 Direct - Mr. Vickery 1412 Cross - Mr. Gorman 1422 15 INDEX TO EXHIBITS 16 17 DEFENDANT'S RECEIVED 18 SB-KK 1266 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1237 09:05:25 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 09:05:25 2 (Trial proceedings reconvened 09:05:25 3 9:00 a.m., May 30, 2001.) 09:05:25 4 THE COURT: Good morning, everybody. 09:05:25 5 I just want to give you a little information. The 09:05:25 6 chief deputy clerk of court advises me that about 10:00 this 09:05:25 7 morning a group of students from a local high school, East 09:05:25 8 High School, will come to visit us, approximately eight 09:05:25 9 students from a government law class. They're going to drop 09:05:25 10 in and listen for a little bit for whatever it is worth to 09:05:25 11 them, and then there will be another group, I believe from 09:05:25 12 the same class, this afternoon, about ten of them. I want to 09:05:25 13 let you know if you see people filing in here, that's who 09:05:25 14 they are. 09:05:25 15 Very good. Defendant ready to proceed? 09:05:25 16 MR. PREUSS: Yes, Your Honor. The defendant would 09:05:25 17 like to call Kenneth Tardiff at this time. 09:05:25 18 (Witness sworn.) 09:05:42 19 THE CLERK: I need you to state your name and spell 09:05:43 20 it for the record, please. 09:05:46 21 THE WITNESS: It is Kenneth Joseph Tardiff, 09:05:48 22 T A R D I F F. 23 24 25 1238 1 KENNETH TARDIFF, M.D. 2 called as a witness on behalf of the Defendant, being first 3 duly sworn, testified as follows: 4 DIRECT EXAMINATION 09:05:51 5 Q. (BY MR. PREUSS) Good morning, Doctor. 09:05:55 6 A. Morning. 09:05:55 7 Q. How are you today? 09:05:56 8 A. Good. 09:05:57 9 Q. Where are you from, sir? 09:05:59 10 A. I was born and raised in New Orleans, went to Tulane 09:06:03 11 Medical School and went to the Northeast. I'm currently 09:06:05 12 living in New York City. 09:06:07 13 Q. Are you a physician, sir? 09:06:08 14 A. Yes, I am. 09:06:09 15 Q. And licensed to practice medicine? 09:06:10 16 A. Yes, I am. 09:06:11 17 Q. In what state, sir? 09:06:12 18 A. In New York, Louisiana, California and Canada. 09:06:17 19 Q. Could you please give us your educational background 09:06:20 20 beginning with college, sir. 09:06:22 21 A. I attended the University of New Orleans as an 09:06:25 22 undergraduate. I then went to Tulane Medical School in New 09:06:31 23 Orleans and where I obtained my M.D. degree. 09:06:32 24 I then went to New York City for an internship with 25 Saint Vincent's. 1239 09:06:35 1 I then went to Boston for my psychiatric residency at 09:06:37 2 the Massachusetts General Hospital. 09:06:39 3 At the same time I was doing my residency I went to 09:06:43 4 the Harvard School of Public Health and obtained a Master's 09:06:47 5 of Public Health degree. 09:06:49 6 Q. Your specialty in medicine is what, sir? 09:06:51 7 A. My specialty is the evaluation and management of violence 09:06:55 8 and suicide. 09:06:57 9 Q. You are a psychiatrist? 09:06:58 10 A. Yes, I am. 09:06:59 11 Q. And are you board certified in psychiatry, sir? 09:07:02 12 A. Board certified in 1976. 09:07:05 13 Q. You indicated that you have a subspecialty within the area 09:07:10 14 of psychiatry? 09:07:11 15 A. Yes, it is violence and suicide as well as murder/suicide. 09:07:16 16 Q. How long have you been working in that area, sir? 09:07:19 17 A. Too long I like to admit. It has been over 25 years. 09:07:22 18 Q. And how long have you focused on murder/suicide in 09:07:26 19 particular? 09:07:27 20 A. For about the past ten years I've been studying 09:07:31 21 murder/suicide, and it has resulted in one publication which 09:07:38 22 we will probably discuss in detail published in 1992. 09:07:42 23 Q. What made you choose the subspecialty of murder/suicide? 09:07:46 24 A. Well, I started off with violence, and when I was a 09:07:50 25 resident I became very interested in violence because, as you 1240 09:07:55 1 know, in the United States prior to the late '60s and early 09:07:59 2 '70s, violence wasn't as prominent as it became in that time, 09:08:03 3 and certainly homicide as well. 09:08:05 4 So as a psychiatric resident I was interested in how 09:08:09 5 one person could kill someone else, and so I began to study 09:08:12 6 it as a resident. My first study was a survey of 09:08:16 7 psychiatrists in Boston in terms of how they treated violent 09:08:20 8 patients. That's how I got interested in it, and I've been 09:08:23 9 interested ever since. 09:08:24 10 Q. And that's evolved into even more of a subspecialty into 09:08:29 11 murder/suicide? 09:08:32 12 A. Yes, it has. 09:08:32 13 Q. Are there other specialists such as yourself that focus 09:08:36 14 their work on murder/suicide? 09:08:40 15 A. Well, there's actually a long history of research in 09:08:43 16 murder/suicide. Not very many people studying it. But it 09:08:49 17 was studied, for example, as long as 200 years ago in terms 09:08:52 18 of mothers killing infants. 09:08:55 19 And so there's a long history of study, but there 09:08:58 20 aren't a lot of researchers who actually study it. 09:09:02 21 Q. Where do you do your work, sir? 09:09:04 22 A. I'm at the Cornell Medical College in New York City and 09:09:09 23 also the New York Presbyterian Hospital which is affiliated 09:09:13 24 with Cornell. 09:09:14 25 Q. And what positions do you have in those two institutions, 1241 09:09:18 1 sir? 09:09:19 2 A. There I'm a professor of psychiatry and public health and 09:09:23 3 also an attending psychiatrist at the New York Presbyterian 09:09:27 4 Hospital. 09:09:28 5 Q. And do you have a clinical practice, sir? 09:09:30 6 A. Yes, I do. It is quite varied. I treat outpatients in 09:09:34 7 terms of medication and psychotherapy. I also for the past 09:09:40 8 four months have been treating five inpatients on the 09:09:45 9 inpatient service of the New York Presbyterian Hospital. 09:09:50 10 In addition I do consultations on the units, 09:09:52 11 particularly in terms of particularly violent or suicidal 09:09:55 12 patients and give them my opinions about treatment. 09:09:59 13 Q. You indicated you use both psychotherapy and medication as 09:10:02 14 treatment modalities; is that correct? 09:10:04 15 A. That's correct. 09:10:05 16 Q. Sometimes in combination? 09:10:06 17 A. Often in combination. 09:10:08 18 Q. And do you use SSRIs? 09:10:11 19 A. Yes. 09:10:11 20 Q. And Paxil in particular? 09:10:14 21 A. Definitely. 09:10:19 22 Q. As part of your clinical practice do you treat patients 09:10:22 23 that are depressed, sir? 09:10:24 24 A. Oh, yes, I think most of my patients are depressed. 09:10:27 25 Q. About how many patients have you seen that have presented 1242 09:10:30 1 to you with depression, sir, over the course of your career? 09:10:39 2 A. I would say probably hundreds, but it has probably crossed 09:10:44 3 the boundary into thousands, a thousand or so. 09:10:48 4 Q. Do you have teaching responsibilities? 09:10:49 5 A. Yes, I teach psychiatric residents, physicians training to 09:10:53 6 be psychiatrists. I also teach medical students at Cornell. 09:10:57 7 The medical students I teach are primarily in terms of 09:11:00 8 general psychiatry. The residents I hone down in terms of 09:11:03 9 the management and prediction of violence and suicide, so my 09:11:06 10 lectures are pretty specific in terms of residents on 09:11:08 11 violence and suicide. 09:11:10 12 Q. Okay. And do you also participate in academic research? 09:11:16 13 A. Oh, yes. As I said, I've been doing research on violence 09:11:31 14 and suicide primarily for over 25 years. 09:11:35 15 Q. And you're continuing in that as of today? 09:11:37 16 A. Yes, I've had a number of research projects. Some of them 09:11:40 17 have looked at actual patients who were violent and suicidal 09:11:45 18 in terms of their characteristics, attempts to predict who 09:11:50 19 will be violent or suicidal. 09:11:53 20 Other work has involved work with a medical examiner 09:11:55 21 in New York City where I've reviewed all homicides, suicides, 09:12:00 22 murder/suicides as well as drug overdoses and other 09:12:05 23 accidents. 09:12:05 24 Q. Where do you receive your funding for your research, sir? 09:12:08 25 A. My prime funding has been from the National Institute of 1243 09:12:11 1 Drug Abuse. I've also received funding from various 09:12:15 2 foundations within the department. 09:12:18 3 Q. Is the National Institute of Drug Abuse -- is that a 09:12:21 4 federal agency or organization? 09:12:23 5 A. It is a federal agency, a branch of the National Institute 09:12:28 6 of Health in Rockville, Maryland. 09:12:30 7 Q. Have you received any research from GlaxoSmithKline? 09:12:34 8 A. No. 09:12:34 9 Q. Or their predecessors, Glaxo and SmithKline? 09:12:39 10 A. No. 09:12:39 11 Q. Have you used your expertise in violent suicide and 09:12:43 12 murder/suicide in other ways besides your clinical practice, 09:12:48 13 teaching and research, sir? 09:12:49 14 A. I've served as a consultant on primarily violence, the 09:12:53 15 management of violence at numerous hospitals within the 09:12:57 16 United States and in Canada as well. 09:13:00 17 Q. Have you done any in the state of Wyoming, sir? 09:13:03 18 A. It is interesting. Yeah, two years ago I did. The State 09:13:06 19 of Wyoming asked me to evaluate the procedures and policies 09:13:09 20 at the Wyoming State Hospital in Evanston, and I was happy to 09:13:14 21 do so. I visited the hospital, interviewed staff, reviewed 09:13:18 22 their policies and then formed the opinion that the care -- 09:13:24 23 MR. FITZGERALD: Excuse me. Pardon me, Doctor. 09:13:26 24 This is not in the disclosure. 09:13:30 25 MR. PREUSS: It is really by way of background, 1244 09:13:31 1 nothing else, Your Honor. 09:13:33 2 MR. FITZGERALD: Except that he's forming an opinion 09:13:36 3 and we have no idea what it is. It is news to me. I have no 09:13:40 4 way to deal with it. 09:13:41 5 THE COURT: He's forming an opinion? I thought it 09:13:43 6 was just his experience. 09:13:44 7 MR. PREUSS: It is his experience, consulting around. 09:13:46 8 I can assure you whatever opinion does not bear on this 09:13:50 9 particular case. 09:13:51 10 THE COURT: We're not looking for opinions. You're 09:13:53 11 setting forth his qualifications, experience and background. 09:13:58 12 That's -- 09:13:59 13 MR. PREUSS: That's what I am doing, Your Honor. 09:14:00 14 THE COURT: That's acceptable. Don't elicit any 09:14:03 15 opinions about it. Okay, all right. 09:14:06 16 A. This is several years ago and so I told them what I 09:14:10 17 thought, that the care was excellent, it was well funded. 09:14:16 18 And then I met several months later here in Cheyenne 09:14:21 19 with the governmental officials, staff persons as well as 09:14:24 20 advocates for the mentally ill and we discussed that, and the 09:14:28 21 meeting was quite satisfactory. 09:14:31 22 Q. (BY MR. PREUSS) Have you published in the area of violent 09:14:33 23 suicide or murder/suicide, sir? 09:14:37 24 A. Yes, I have. 09:14:38 25 Q. About how many articles have you published? 1245 09:14:41 1 A. In the peer-reviewed literature, roughly over a hundred, 09:14:45 2 many of them about violence and suicide. 09:14:48 3 Q. And have you -- I'm sorry? 09:14:50 4 A. I'm sorry. And then in books and chapters, about another 09:14:57 5 60 or so. 09:14:57 6 Q. And have you served as a reviewer for journals in 09:14:58 7 evaluating articles submitted for publication, sir? 09:15:02 8 A. Yes. These are called peer-reviewed journals because the 09:15:06 9 journal article that's submitted is sent to experts in the 09:15:09 10 field. The experts then give an opinion as to whether the 09:15:12 11 article should be published or not. And I serve on a number 09:15:15 12 of journals such as that. 09:15:18 13 Examples: Journal of the American Medical 09:15:22 14 Association, Archives of General Psychiatry, American Journal 09:15:25 15 of Psychiatry; about 15 or so journals. 09:15:27 16 Q. Are you involved in any professional associations, sir? 09:15:30 17 A. My prime involvement has been with the American 09:15:34 18 Psychiatric Association, and there I've worked on various 09:15:37 19 committees in terms of primarily developing guidelines for 09:15:41 20 the treatment of violent patients. 09:15:47 21 Q. Have you ever consulted for the NIH, or the National 09:15:50 22 Institutes of Health? 09:15:53 23 A. Yes. Again, several years ago there was concern at the 09:15:56 24 National Institute of Health that not enough research was 09:16:07 25 being done on violence in the United States. 1246 09:16:10 1 And a panel was convened and I was the expert 09:16:13 2 psychiatrist on the panel. There were other experts, law, 09:16:18 3 sociology, et cetera. We met several times and reviewed the 09:16:21 4 portfolio of the National Institutes of Health on violence 09:16:24 5 and made certain recommendations. 09:16:26 6 Q. Now, Doctor, can you tell us based on your background and 09:16:29 7 experience how often murder/suicide occurs in our society? 09:16:35 8 A. As I said, Dr. Peter Marzuk and I published the paper in 09:16:40 9 1992 in the Journal of the American Medical Association and 09:16:44 10 we reviewed articles, I think, roughly from the mid-'60s to 09:16:50 11 1990 or whatever. 09:16:51 12 These articles described rates of murder/suicide in 09:16:59 13 the world, in the United States. It is very difficult to 09:17:02 14 come to an exact percentage rate, but we thought that 09:17:06 15 generally within the United States and within the world the 09:17:11 16 rate -- the range is from 2 to 6 murder/suicides per million 09:17:18 17 population per year. 09:17:22 18 Q. Now, Doctor, as a reference point, the article that you're 09:17:27 19 referencing is a review in "The Epidemiology" -- the title of 09:17:31 20 which is "The Epidemiology of Murder/Suicide"? 09:17:34 21 A. That's correct. 09:17:35 22 Q. Which appeared in JAMA, the Journal of the American 09:17:40 23 Medical Association? 09:17:40 24 A. That's correct. 09:17:41 25 MR. PREUSS: For the record, Your Honor, SB-FF-151. 1247 09:17:48 1 A. If I might just follow up, given the rate of 09:17:52 2 murder/suicide, let's say, in the United States is from 2 to 09:17:56 3 6, if you take the middle, around 4 per million and the 09:18:01 4 population in the United States is 285 million, you can see 09:18:06 5 that we would expect each year over a thousand 09:18:09 6 murder/suicides in the United States. 09:18:12 7 Q. (BY MR. PREUSS) Is a thousand, then, annually in the 09:18:16 8 United States -- is that what you would call a background 09:18:18 9 rate? 09:18:19 10 A. Yes. 09:18:21 11 Q. And how would you define background rate, then? 09:18:26 12 A. The endemic or expected background rate -- rate expected 09:18:37 13 absent of something else causing or raising the rate for a 09:18:40 14 particular year, for example. 09:18:41 15 Q. Based on your research has the rate of murder/suicide 09:18:45 16 changed over time, sir? 09:18:46 17 A. No, surprisingly the articles that we've reviewed, it has 09:18:50 18 remained fairly constant throughout the world. There's some 09:18:55 19 variation, but certainly compared to homicide which varies 09:19:00 20 greatly, murder/suicide is a fairly constant phenomenon. 09:19:05 21 Q. Running roughly about 4, give or take, per million per 09:19:09 22 year? 09:19:09 23 A. Yes, yes. And the surprising thing is not only in terms 09:19:12 24 of time, but by and large across countries the rate of 09:19:17 25 murder/suicide is roughly the same. Again, there's some 1248 09:19:20 1 variations here and there, but as you know, homicide varies 09:19:24 2 enormously across countries with the United States having a 09:19:27 3 very high rate and other countries having very low rates. 09:19:31 4 Q. Now, have you yourself looked at the rate of 09:19:33 5 murder/suicide in any population group, sir? 09:19:38 6 A. Yes, I've done a study with a medical examiner in New York 09:19:42 7 City looking at all murder/suicides from 1990 to 1997. 09:19:49 8 Again, these are all murder/suicides in New York City which 09:19:54 9 means all five boroughs of New York City with a population of 09:19:58 10 8 million. 09:19:59 11 Q. And what does the medical examiner do in connection with 09:20:03 12 these murder/suicides? 09:20:05 13 A. Okay. Just so you have a little background in case you 09:20:09 14 don't know what a medical examiner does, a medical examiner 09:20:12 15 is responsible for examining all cases of homicide, suicide, 09:20:16 16 drug overdoses, accidents or a death which was not where the 09:20:22 17 patient was attended by a physician. 09:20:29 18 The responsibility of a medical examiner is to 09:20:29 19 evaluate the case and determine why the death occurred, i.e., 09:20:32 20 was it a homicide, suicide, drug overdose. Oftentimes it is 09:20:35 21 not quite as clear as it might seem. 09:20:38 22 So in doing this the medical examiner sends one of 09:20:41 23 his staff, usually a pathologist, to the death scene. The 09:20:45 24 pathologist evaluates the scene in terms of what is at the 09:20:51 25 scene, may interview people who witnessed that or knew the 1249 09:20:57 1 victim. 09:20:58 2 The medical examiner will also do an autopsy and also 09:21:02 3 will collect specimens, blood, urine, et cetera, for 09:21:08 4 toxicology. These specimens are tested for drugs of abuse 09:21:16 5 and drugs of treatment, including antidepressants. 09:21:19 6 So, therefore, we know in a murder/suicide what the 09:21:22 7 victim was taking as well as what the perpetrator was taking 09:21:28 8 at the time of the murder/suicide. 09:21:33 9 Q. As part of this examination you indicated that a 09:21:35 10 specimen -- blood specimens were taken and urine specimens? 09:21:40 11 A. Urine, bile, a number of different specimens. 09:21:44 12 Q. And they are subjected to toxicologic screening? 09:21:47 13 A. Screening and analysis. So the medical examiner knows 09:21:51 14 which drugs were present at the time the event occurred. And 09:21:55 15 this is really particularly true for murder/suicide because 09:22:00 16 in murder/suicide, the suicide occurs usually quickly after 09:22:06 17 the homicide, usually within an hour or so. 09:23:17 18 Q. Is this toxicological screening sensitive to SSRIs? 09:23:17 19 A. Yes. 09:23:17 20 Q. And Paxil in particular? 09:23:17 21 A. Yes. 09:23:17 22 Q. So if a person committed a murder/suicide, based on the 09:23:17 23 toxicological screen you would be able to ascertain whether 09:23:17 24 or not Paxil was in their system? 09:23:17 25 A. Yes. 1250 09:23:17 1 MR. FITZGERALD: Excuse me. I didn't get my 09:23:17 2 objection in before he answered but this is not in the 09:23:17 3 disclosure. 09:23:17 4 THE COURT: Objection sustained. The jury is 09:23:17 5 instructed to disregard the question and the answer. 09:23:17 6 MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Preuss is free to correct me if 09:23:17 7 it is in there. 09:23:17 8 THE COURT: I would change my ruling if it is in 09:23:17 9 there. 09:23:17 10 MR. PREUSS: It is. Paragraph 9 of page 3 of the 09:23:17 11 disclosure, talks about his work with murder/suicides in New 09:23:17 12 York City from 1990 to 1997. 09:23:17 13 MR. FITZGERALD: But it does not include any 09:23:17 14 reference to an opinion that this sort of event occurs within 09:23:17 15 a certain time frame or any foundation for that opinion or 09:23:17 16 anything. It is just not there, Your Honor. 09:23:17 17 MR. PREUSS: Your Honor, I think it is clearly 09:23:23 18 covered by our disclosure. 09:23:23 19 THE COURT: Describe to me again where you're citing 09:23:23 20 from, Mr. Preuss. 09:23:24 21 MR. FITZGERALD: Would the Court care to see the 09:23:26 22 cite, Your Honor? 09:23:27 23 THE COURT: Well, I have it. I just -- did you say 09:23:29 24 paragraph 9, page 3? 09:23:31 25 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, he did. 1251 09:23:33 1 MR. PREUSS: Right. And page 10 and number 11. 09:24:03 2 THE COURT: Where is the reference to time? 09:24:06 3 MR. PREUSS: You mean how soon after -- I don't think 09:24:09 4 that's in there, Your Honor. 09:24:10 5 THE COURT: Objection sustained. 09:24:31 6 Q. (BY MR. PREUSS) Doctor, you indicated you have reviewed 09:24:32 7 the toxicological data from all the murder/suicides in New 09:24:38 8 York City for this period of time from 1990 to 1997, sir? 09:24:41 9 A. That's correct. 09:24:52 10 Q. Was Paxil available during that period of time? 09:24:54 11 A. Yes, Paxil was approved in December of 1992, so it was 09:24:58 12 available in 1993. 09:24:59 13 Q. And how many murder/suicides have you reviewed during this 09:25:04 14 nine -- seven-year period -- excuse me -- seven- or 09:25:08 15 eight-year period? 09:25:10 16 A. Eight year. All of them, which is 129. 09:25:18 17 Q. In any of those was any individual taking an 09:25:20 18 antidepressant, sir? 09:25:22 19 A. Yes, one individual was taking an antidepressant, one 09:25:26 20 murder. 09:25:27 21 Q. What was that antidepressant? 09:25:28 22 A. It was a tricyclic antidepressant. 09:25:31 23 Q. And were any other foreign substances found in the 09:25:35 24 toxicological screening? 09:25:37 25 A. The individual, 46-year-old woman, was also taking heroin, 1252 09:25:42 1 marijuana and methadone. She killed her 27-year-old 09:25:50 2 daughter, then herself. 09:25:51 3 Q. Had the number of murder/suicides in your New York study 09:25:56 4 stayed consistent during this eight-year period? 09:26:00 5 A. From 1990 to 1997, roughly 16 per year. There was some, 09:26:08 6 you know, slight increase, slight decrease in one or two 09:26:12 7 years, but by and large, 16 per year. I think one year it 09:26:23 8 fell to 7 for some reason, but roughly 16 to 18. 09:26:28 9 Q. Was the number of 129 what you would expect based on the 09:26:31 10 background rate, sir? 09:26:32 11 A. Yes. If you take the lower rate from 2 to 6, if you take 09:26:41 12 2 per million per year, the population of New York is 8 09:26:45 13 million, therefore you would expect roughly 16 per year. If 09:26:48 14 you look at eight years and multiply that, you get 128. So 09:26:58 15 it is roughly in the ballpark of what you would expect given 09:26:58 16 the U.S. and world rate of murder/suicide per year. 09:27:02 17 Q. And any of those individuals involved in those 129 cases 09:27:06 18 been taking Paxil, sir? 09:27:08 19 A. No. 09:27:08 20 Q. Have you had the occasion to search the published 09:27:11 21 literature for any reference to Paxil being associated with 09:27:14 22 murder/suicide in any way? 09:27:16 23 A. Yes, I have. 09:27:17 24 Q. And what have you found, sir? 09:27:18 25 A. I have not found a peer-reviewed article discussing Paxil 1253 09:27:24 1 and murder/suicide. 09:27:27 2 Q. All right. Have you had the occasion to review the 09:27:29 3 aggression paper prepared by SmithKline for year 2000? 09:27:35 4 A. That's prepared by Nicola Chang? 09:27:39 5 Q. Yes. 09:27:39 6 A. Yes, I have reviewed that. 09:27:41 7 Q. And what does that indicate? 09:27:42 8 A. It indicates that there were -- and again, I don't 09:27:49 9 remember exactly when it was done, but I think it was started 09:27:52 10 around 1990 to 2000 basically, and these were all reports 09:27:58 11 submitted, I guess, to SmithKline concerning -- what I was 09:28:03 12 particularly interested in was murder/suicide. 09:28:06 13 And during that time period there were seven 09:28:09 14 murder/suicides where the perpetrator of the murder/suicide 09:28:14 15 was reportedly taking Paxil. 09:28:16 16 Q. And is that consistent with the background rate, sir? 09:28:22 17 A. It is much lower. I mean, if you consider this is the 09:28:25 18 whole world, you have considered that the rate of 09:28:27 19 murder/suicide in the world is from 2 to 6 per million, and 09:28:33 20 if you assume that millions of people have been exposed to 09:28:36 21 Paxil, it is unclear how many, whether it was 25 or 80 09:28:40 22 million, 7 is certainly much less than I would expect. 09:28:46 23 Q. And this is worldwide? 09:28:48 24 A. This is all world reports of Paxil. 09:28:56 25 Q. Now, Doctor, I would like to turn your attention to the 1254 09:28:58 1 review article that we've discussed a couple times. Can you 09:29:05 2 tell us, generally speaking, the purpose and the scope of 09:29:10 3 this article, sir? 09:29:13 4 A. This paper was prepared by Dr. Peter Marzuk, myself and 09:29:18 5 the medical examiner himself, Dr. Charles Hirsch. We 09:29:27 6 reviewed the literature using Medline, a computer search, all 09:29:30 7 papers related to murder/suicide from 1996 on. 09:29:35 8 Now, in doing that, of course, we're then able to 09:29:39 9 find references in these papers that went back over time, as 09:29:42 10 I said, back to 1800. So that we reviewed all of these 09:29:47 11 papers and attempted in this paper to, number one, pull 09:29:51 12 together all of the statistics in terms of, you know, age, 09:29:55 13 sex, race of the victims and the perpetrators, and then also 09:30:02 14 from these reviews to develop classification of 09:30:08 15 murder/suicide. 09:30:10 16 This had never been done before. What had been done 09:30:13 17 in the previous papers is to present parts of murder/suicide. 09:30:19 18 So, for example, one paper might discuss mothers killing 09:30:22 19 infants, and then killing themselves. Others might discuss 09:30:28 20 men killing family members and then themselves or jealous 09:30:33 21 spouses killing the spouse and then themselves. 09:30:36 22 So we did it -- we pulled together all of these and 09:30:39 23 came up with four basic types where family members were 09:30:43 24 killed. Now, these are strictly descriptive. It does not 09:30:50 25 imply causation. This is merely to develop the typology so 1255 09:31:00 1 that further research can be done following the publication 09:31:02 2 of our paper. There were, I think, three other papers again 09:31:07 3 looking at the literature before and after 1990, and they 09:31:10 4 basically confirm and use our typology. 09:31:14 5 So the typology we've developed is one that's fairly 09:31:18 6 accepted and standard at this point in time. 09:31:20 7 Q. Would you be kind enough to go to the easel there and tell 09:31:26 8 us what four types you found based on your review of the 09:31:32 9 literature. 09:31:33 10 And maybe you could turn that? 09:31:35 11 MR. PREUSS: I would like to mark that as next in 09:31:37 12 order, Your Honor, which I believe is KK. 09:31:40 13 THE WITNESS: Tell me if you can't see. And excuse 09:31:43 14 my handwriting, too. 09:32:16 15 A. The first is spouse jealousy. 09:32:24 16 Q. (BY MR. PREUSS) Can you write a little larger? 09:32:25 17 I interrupted you. What was the first one? 09:32:28 18 A. Spouse jealousy. This involves a perpetrator, a man, 09:32:35 19 usually age 18 to 60. He suspects or knows about infidelity 09:32:56 20 of his wife or lover so that he suspects it or he actually 09:32:59 21 knows that the wife has been unfaithful to him. 09:33:03 22 The victim is the wife or lover who has either been 09:33:18 23 unfaithful, has left him for another man. He then kills 09:33:18 24 himself -- kills his wife and then kills himself, so a 09:33:23 25 murder/suicide. 1256 09:33:31 1 Q. Could you give us a sample of that that appears in the 09:33:33 2 literature? 09:33:35 3 A. What I've done based on the literature I reviewed, I 09:33:38 4 pulled out cases to give you a flavor. I think it is very 09:33:42 5 helpful. 09:33:43 6 The first one was done by Dr. Rosenburg. The study 09:33:48 7 was done in Albuquerque, New Mexico from 1978 to 1987. And 09:33:55 8 there was one case described which clearly illustrates this. 09:33:58 9 It was a 55-year-old man, married for 30 years. For 09:34:02 10 the three months prior to the murder/suicide he was 09:34:06 11 depressed. He thought that his wife was being unfaithful 09:34:09 12 and, in fact, accused her of infidelity. She denied this. 09:34:16 13 He had been unable to work. There had been marital 09:34:20 14 problems for years. In fact, they had been separated twice. 09:34:26 15 She insisted that he see a psychiatrist and he didn't want to 09:34:30 16 see a psychiatrist. 09:34:31 17 In an argument, she one night threatened to leave him 09:34:35 18 because of this. He shot her and then shot himself. A clear 09:34:39 19 example -- and this is seen over and over in terms of this 09:34:42 20 particular type. 09:34:43 21 Q. Okay. And what is the second type that emerges from your 09:34:46 22 review of the literature, sir? 09:34:53 23 A. The next one is also a spouse and this is declining 09:35:09 24 health. In this case the perpetrator is usually, again, a 09:35:13 25 man, although there are some cases where women have killed 1257 09:35:21 1 their husbands. The age is usually more elderly, elderly 09:35:33 2 perpetrator. The victim is usually the wife but there are 09:35:43 3 some cases where the wife may kill the husband and the motive 09:35:51 4 usually seen here is declining health in one or both spouses, 09:36:00 5 elderly people, declining health, one spouse kills the other 09:36:05 6 and then kills him or herself. 09:36:07 7 Q. Can you give us an example of that? 09:36:09 8 A. Yeah. This example comes from a study done by Dr. Allen 09:36:15 9 in Los Angeles. This ranged from -- the study was 1970 to 09:36:20 10 1979. In this case a 79-year-old man killed a 78-year-old 09:36:25 11 wife. The wife -- and then killed himself. The wife had 09:36:34 12 multiple sclerosis for 30 years and was dependent on the 09:36:38 13 husband in terms of caring for her. 09:36:40 14 Unfortunately the man, the husband, was diagnosed 09:36:43 15 with cancer which appeared to be terminal. He decided to -- 09:36:47 16 it was like a mercy killing to kill both his wife and then 09:36:51 17 himself. And again, this is a classic example in terms of 09:36:54 18 spouse declining health murder/suicide. 09:36:58 19 Q. What's the third category or type, sir, that you found? 09:37:01 20 A. The third type is an infant/child murder/suicide. Here 09:37:24 21 the perpetrator is a parent. Most murder/suicides where a 09:37:30 22 child is killed involves a parent. Many of them involve a 09:37:34 23 parent being killed. Child homicides, per se, don't -- may 09:37:42 24 often involve parents, but also strangers and then 09:37:46 25 murder/suicide doesn't occur. 1258 09:37:49 1 The murder/suicide here involves a parent, could be 09:37:53 2 the father, could be the mother. It may vary as to the age 09:37:57 3 of the individual as to who kills the individual. For 09:38:00 4 example, mothers are more likely to kill infants, fathers 09:38:03 5 more likely older children. 09:38:05 6 The age varies of the perpetrator, although the 09:38:11 7 age -- in the age of the child/infant varies all the way from 09:38:17 8 the newborn all the way up to 16 years of age. The victim is 09:38:32 9 an infant and/or a child. 09:38:35 10 The classic finding here is depression of the 09:38:45 11 perpetrator, and often -- not often, but many times it is 09:38:49 12 also with psychosis. 09:38:58 13 Q. What do you mean by psychosis? 09:39:00 14 A. Psychosis is a false belief, believing something that is 09:39:03 15 almost definitely not true. A person who is delusional, for 09:39:11 16 example, psychotic, that is, they believe, for example, that 09:39:15 17 they're responsible for some overwhelming thing, like they 09:39:20 18 poison their infants or they're responsible for things that 09:39:23 19 are obviously not true, or they may be paranoid thinking that 09:39:28 20 people are persecuting them, when in fact it is definitely 09:39:30 21 not true. 09:39:32 22 So that's called a delusion. Some of these people 09:39:35 23 also have hallucinations, voices talking to them telling them 09:39:38 24 to do things. So either hallucinations or delusion is 09:39:42 25 psychosis. 1259 09:39:43 1 Again, psychosis is often present, but depression is 09:39:52 2 definitely there. And then this is the motivating thing in 09:39:52 3 terms of killing the infant or the child. 09:40:01 4 And this goes back, as I said, 200 years, described 09:40:04 5 by a physician named Pinal in France in 18 something. So 09:40:08 6 this really goes back. And he coined a term called 09:40:25 7 altruistic homicide. And it has been used by researchers 09:40:31 8 ever since then. And it takes a little explaining because 09:40:38 9 altruism, as you know, is doing something good for somebody 09:40:42 10 at your own expense. 09:40:43 11 And his concept of this, having evaluated these 09:40:47 12 cases, is that the depressed psychotic mother or father 09:40:53 13 really believed that they were doing the child a favor by 09:40:57 14 killing them to prevent them from being exposed to whatever 09:41:03 15 stresses were going on; for example, poverty, et cetera, 09:41:07 16 and/or the suicide of the parent. 09:41:09 17 Now, clearly this is psychotic in terms of this type 09:41:13 18 belief, but the individual, when depressed with psychotic 09:41:17 19 thinking, actually believes that they're doing something to 09:41:20 20 help the individual. 09:41:26 21 In terms of names, in terms of delusional altruism 09:41:30 22 and so on, it has really come down through the literature 09:41:34 23 through the centuries. 09:41:36 24 Q. Can you give us an example of the third kind? 09:41:39 25 A. To show you how universal this is I chose an example from 1260 09:41:42 1 Japan in 1956. This was a 34-year-old housewife who drowned 09:41:46 2 her 4-year-old daughter and then jumped in a river attempting 09:41:52 3 to drown herself. She was accidentally found by her brother 09:41:57 4 who saved her and she was arrested by the police. 09:42:03 5 As it turns out, two weeks after delivery she became 09:42:07 6 depressed and increasingly became depressed and was very 09:42:12 7 concerned about her baby. She would go around saying 09:42:15 8 something like, "My poor baby. My poor baby." And her 09:42:21 9 husband was very concerned about finances, very hard working 09:42:25 10 and basically just didn't take her for treatment. 09:42:28 11 Unfortunately one morning, as I said, she drowned her 09:42:32 12 baby and then tried to drown herself. When the police 09:42:38 13 interviewed her, what we saw was this, the idea that she's 09:42:41 14 really trying to save her baby from all of these horrible 09:42:45 15 things in the world. 09:42:46 16 Q. And the fourth type or group that you found based on your 09:42:49 17 research, sir? 09:43:09 18 A. Family murder/suicide. Perpetrator, senior male of the 09:43:31 19 family, obviously usually the father. Depression, depressed, 09:43:34 20 person is depressed. Social stressors. 09:43:59 21 Q. You wrote down some social stressors? 09:44:02 22 A. Social stressors involve a number of different things -- 09:44:07 23 finances, job, marital difficulties, losses -- anything 09:44:12 24 that's impinging on the individual as well as the family. 09:44:23 25 The personality described for the perpetrator a number of 1261 09:44:28 1 different kind of things, but by and large controlling, 09:44:35 2 possessive, strong individual, used to being in control, 09:44:47 3 being the supporter of the family, somewhat rigid. 09:45:24 4 The thing we see in this type of murder/suicide is 09:45:28 5 the person, the man, kills the family and the family usually 09:45:31 6 involves a wife, children and other relatives that may be in 09:45:36 7 the house. 09:45:42 8 What we find in terms of -- it varies in terms of the 09:45:45 9 reason for this. It is, again, sort of like the infant/child 09:45:51 10 murder/suicide, this concept of altruism: "I'm going to 09:45:55 11 spare my family all of these things -- poverty and my 09:46:00 12 suicide -- and I'm going to kill them." 09:46:02 13 Again, this is a deluded sort of altruism. In 09:46:09 14 certain cases also this has been tied in with anger, 09:46:12 15 frustration, because what comes together is a strong person, 09:46:17 16 strong man who is now depressed facing numerous stressors 09:46:23 17 that seem hopeless in terms of the future. 09:46:27 18 And all of these things come together, he's not used 09:46:30 19 to this, and produces the homicide and then the suicide. 09:46:34 20 Q. Can you give us an example of that? 09:46:36 21 A. Yeah. There's a good example from Goldburg. This study 09:46:50 22 was done in 1975 in Australia. The person involved here was 09:46:57 23 actually younger than usual. He was a 31-year-old school 09:47:01 24 teacher in Australia, lived with his wife and three children. 09:47:05 25 The children were aged 5, 4 and 2 years of age. 1262 09:47:11 1 One morning a relative found his wife dead, killed 09:47:17 2 with an ax, and found him with his children shot to death. 09:47:26 3 He killed his children and then himself. 09:47:33 4 The neighbors described the family as an ideal 09:47:35 5 family, regular churchgoers. No history of violence in the 09:47:41 6 family. The man had seen a doctor a number of times for 09:47:43 7 depression. Tricyclic was prescribed for the depression. 09:47:52 8 I'm not sure how many times he saw him. There were a number 09:47:55 9 of bouts of depression. The last time he had been treated, 09:47:58 10 however, was one year prior to the murder/suicide. 09:48:01 11 So apparently what happened is, again, he had another 09:48:03 12 bout of depression, was not treated and then the tragedy 09:48:07 13 occurred. 09:48:11 14 Q. Now, on the last group, the family murder/suicide, sir, is 09:48:18 15 the perpetrator -- 09:48:21 16 A. Excuse me. It seems to get in the way here. 09:48:24 17 Q. The last group, on the family murder/suicide scenario, is 09:48:29 18 the perpetrator generally a male, did you say? 09:48:32 19 A. Yes. 09:48:34 20 Q. And any particular age? 09:48:39 21 A. It is usually a senior male. I mean, we generally think 09:48:42 22 that it is in the older -- depends what you mean by old, but 09:48:46 23 usually, you know, 50, 60, along that line, which is 09:48:50 24 important because there you have the declining sort of 09:48:54 25 functioning and lots of things happening. 1263 09:48:57 1 However, like the case I gave, it could be also a 09:48:59 2 younger person as well. 09:49:01 3 Q. And any income level generally in this group? 09:49:05 4 A. By and large I think -- I haven't studied that. The 09:49:09 5 subsequent articles have shown that generally that -- 09:49:13 6 murder/suicide in general but family murder/suicide, sort of 09:49:19 7 the middle income range, as opposed to the homicides where, 09:49:23 8 as you know, most of the homicides occur in people who are 09:49:27 9 impoverished, both victims and perpetrators. 09:49:31 10 Q. Is there a mental illness involved generally with the 09:49:34 11 perpetrator? 09:49:35 12 A. In which type? 09:49:36 13 Q. Number 4, the family murder/suicide. 09:49:39 14 A. Yes, it is usually depression, occasionally, but again we 09:49:44 15 can see depression with psychosis. But again, it is usually 09:49:48 16 linked with a depression, nothing like schizophrenia or 09:49:52 17 anything like that. 09:49:52 18 Q. Is there any gender trend in the victims? 09:49:56 19 A. The victims are almost uniformly women, spouses. However, 09:50:01 20 male children also can be killed. 09:50:08 21 Q. Do the literature show anything about the location of 09:50:11 22 where the murder/suicide occurs in this fourth group? 09:50:16 23 A. Primarily the bedroom and the living room, which makes 09:50:19 24 sense since that's probably where arguments would occur. 09:50:24 25 Q. In this fourth group is there usually history of domestic 1264 09:50:27 1 violence that precedes the murder/suicide? 09:50:31 2 A. No, there is no history of domestic violence, unlike the 09:50:34 3 first type where oftentimes there is a history of domestic 09:50:38 4 violence. 09:50:38 5 Q. And you indicated that there are other stressors that may 09:50:41 6 operate on this scenario, number 4? 09:50:44 7 A. Well, the stressors are usually social stressors, again -- 09:50:52 8 worried about money, job insecurity, marital difficulties. 09:50:56 9 Occasionally infidelity may come -- suspected infidelity may 09:51:03 10 come as a social stressor, deaths in the family, a number of 09:51:07 11 things that impact on the individual as well as the family. 09:51:11 12 Q. Okay. And taking all four of the types that you wrote 09:51:14 13 about in your 1992 article, is there one thread that ties 09:51:18 14 them together? 09:51:31 15 A. Not one thread. I think the threads are certainly mental 09:51:34 16 illness, oftentimes depression, and then also -- trying to 09:51:38 17 pick the right word -- some threat to the individual and/or 09:51:47 18 family; for example, wife leaving, infidelity, declining 09:51:52 19 health. Not as much with the infanticide, but certainly with 09:52:00 20 the family murder/suicide, certainly stressors on the 09:52:04 21 individual and family. So it is mental illness plus stress. 09:52:08 22 Q. Is depression often that mental illness? 09:52:12 23 A. Depression is usually the one. 09:52:13 24 Q. Is this '92 article the first time that these types have 09:52:17 25 been described in the literature? 1265 09:52:18 1 A. Well, what happened is other authors have described, as I 09:52:24 2 said earlier, parts of the phenomenon of murder/suicide. I 09:52:30 3 think we're the first to bring them all together in one 09:52:32 4 paper. 09:52:33 5 Q. Have you reviewed any material specific to Donald Schell, 09:52:40 6 sir? 09:52:41 7 A. Yes. 09:52:41 8 Q. Can you tell us generally what you've reviewed? 09:52:43 9 A. Generally I've reviewed his medical records, Mrs. -- Rita 09:52:47 10 Schell's medical records, depositions of doctors who cared 09:52:52 11 for the Schells, police reports, depositions of family 09:53:08 12 members of the Schells as well as family and friends of the 09:53:08 13 Schells. 09:53:09 14 Q. How about the autopsy? 09:53:11 15 A. Sorry, the autopsy report and toxicology report. 09:53:13 16 Q. Based on your review of these materials, does Donald 09:53:21 17 Schell's case fit into any one of these four categories? 09:53:21 18 A. Definitely. 09:53:21 19 Q. Which one? 09:53:22 20 A. The fourth category. 09:53:24 21 MR. PREUSS: Thank you, Doctor. 09:53:34 22 Your Honor, before Mr. Fitzgerald starts may I mark 09:53:36 23 it and ask that it be admitted at this time, Your Honor? 09:53:39 24 THE COURT: Yes, you may. 09:53:55 25 Any objection? 1266 09:53:55 1 MR. FITZGERALD: No, Your Honor. 09:53:56 2 THE COURT: I believe that's Plaintiffs' KK. 09:53:59 3 MR. PREUSS: Defendant's, Your Honor. 09:54:00 4 THE COURT: It may be received in evidence. 09:54:03 5 (Defendant Exhibit SB-KK received in evidence.) 6 CROSS-EXAMINATION 09:54:04 7 Q. (BY MR. FITZGERALD) Doctor, we've not met. My name is 09:54:53 8 Jim Fitzgerald and I represent the families. 09:54:57 9 A. Good morning. 09:54:59 10 Q. You reviewed the police report so you must have seen that 09:55:02 11 Bette Smith reported to the police that the Schells had no 09:55:09 12 financial problems, didn't you? 09:55:11 13 A. Yes. 09:55:20 14 Q. On the matter of finances, I do understand correctly that 09:55:24 15 you charge $3,000 a day for your work like you're doing here? 09:55:28 16 A. Anything over ten hours, yes. 09:55:30 17 Q. Okay. Well, you're going to be gone from your office all 09:55:34 18 day so you must be charging at least $3,000 for today, right? 09:55:38 19 A. Yes. 09:55:40 20 Q. Did you charge $3,000 for yesterday? 09:55:42 21 A. Yes. 09:55:43 22 Q. And you will be flying back this evening, so I presume you 09:55:48 23 won't be charging for tomorrow? 09:55:50 24 A. Whatever time I spend here I will charge. 09:55:55 25 Q. Well, let me make sure I'm clear. Whatever time you spend 1267 09:55:58 1 here, even if it is less than ten hours, you're still going 09:56:03 2 to charge the $3,000 for today, aren't you? 09:56:07 3 A. No, I charge -- if I'm at a place for ten hours or more I 09:56:14 4 charge $3,000. If I'm in a place for less than ten hours I 09:56:19 5 charge an hourly rate. Obviously I don't want to charge for 09:56:21 6 my sleeping and things like that. 09:56:24 7 Q. How about your time on the airplane? 09:56:25 8 A. Yes, I would charge for that. 09:56:27 9 Q. And you get flown here first class except for the 09:56:30 10 Denver/Cheyenne leg, I'm sure? 09:56:33 11 A. No, I was coach. 09:56:34 12 Q. When you went to Hawaii did you go first class? 09:56:37 13 A. No, coach. 09:56:38 14 Q. And when you were in Hawaii testifying in August of 1999, 09:56:41 15 you actually charged $12,000 for four days' worth of work, 09:56:47 16 right? 09:56:47 17 A. Yes, as far as I can remember it was four days. 09:56:55 18 Q. Now, you're not a member of the American Association of 09:57:00 19 Suicidology, are you? 09:57:03 20 A. No. 09:57:04 21 Q. Or of the International Association for Suicide 09:57:06 22 Prevention? 09:57:07 23 A. No. 09:57:08 24 Q. You're not a member of the American Academy of Forensic 09:57:11 25 Sciences, are you? 1268 09:57:13 1 A. No. 09:57:13 2 Q. You're not a member of the American Foundation for Suicide 09:57:15 3 Prevention, are you? 09:57:17 4 A. No. 09:57:18 5 Q. You're not a member of the Academy for Suicide Research, 09:57:21 6 are you? 09:57:21 7 A. No. 09:57:22 8 Q. Nor are you a member of the American Academy of Forensic 09:57:25 9 Examiners? 09:57:26 10 A. No. 09:57:39 11 Q. Doctor, would it be a correct statement that a standard 09:57:42 12 toxicology screen does not pick up Paxil or other SSRIs? 09:57:46 13 A. That's not true. 09:57:46 14 Q. The coroner has to test specifically for paroxetine, does 09:57:50 15 he not? 09:57:51 16 A. What is done is there are screens for acidic/basic drugs, 09:57:58 17 et cetera, and based on whether there's a positive result 09:58:02 18 there, the coroner would test for specific drugs. 09:58:05 19 Q. Let's talk about the Chang study that was mentioned. Is 09:58:08 20 it Dr. Chang or who within SmithKline? 09:58:12 21 A. I don't think she had a Ph.D. I think she was a 09:58:15 22 Master's-level person. 09:58:17 23 Q. This is what is mentioned in paragraph seven of your 09:58:19 24 report. And it talks about a summary of all reports received 09:58:25 25 by SmithKline Beecham, correct? 1269 09:58:26 1 A. That's correct. 09:58:27 2 Q. Okay. This is a summary of reports received by SmithKline 09:58:38 3 Beecham as of April 6th, 2000, a little over a year ago, of 09:58:41 4 aggressive behavior following paroxetine treatment, correct? 09:58:46 5 A. That's correct. 09:58:46 6 Q. That's what we're aiming in here on? 09:58:49 7 A. That's correct. 09:58:49 8 Q. And that Chang report within SmithKline Beecham referred 09:58:52 9 to seven reported cases of murder/suicide, correct? 09:58:57 10 A. That's correct. 09:58:58 11 Q. Okay. But there certainly could have been more that 09:59:01 12 weren't reported to SmithKline Beecham, even on Paxil; isn't 09:59:05 13 that true? 09:59:06 14 A. That's highly unlikely, because, as I said, murder/suicide 09:59:10 15 is a very publicized thing and I would predict that 100 09:59:14 16 percent would have been reported. It is not like diarrhea or 09:59:18 17 something, you know. 09:59:19 18 Q. But somebody has to make that connection between the 09:59:23 19 paroxetine and the murder/suicide, don't they? 09:59:28 20 A. Believe me, there's definitely consideration as to what 09:59:32 21 medications patients were on when murder/suicide occurs. 09:59:37 22 Recently there was a case in Denver, perhaps you're aware of 09:59:39 23 it, where a 41-year-old man killed his whole family and in 09:59:44 24 the paper it was definitely indicated that he was not on 09:59:48 25 antidepressants. So this has a lot of attention and I think 1270 09:59:53 1 there would be 100 percent reports in terms of any 09:59:55 2 murder/suicide where a person was on Paxil or any other SSRI. 10:00:01 3 Q. Suppose it occurred in a more rural area such as our 10:00:09 4 state? Would you expect that the police would definitely 10:00:09 5 make the connection between Paxil and murder/suicide? 10:00:09 6 A. Yes. I'm sorry, not the police, the medical examiner or 10:00:21 7 coroner. 10:00:27 8 Q. Well, the -- there has to be an autopsy, correct? 10:00:34 9 A. Yes. 10:00:35 10 Q. And not every murder/suicide gets an autopsy, does it? 10:00:39 11 A. I would be horrified if they didn't. 10:00:45 12 Q. Let me ask you this, sir. One of the things that I 10:00:52 13 gathered from your having placed Donald Schell in category 4 10:00:59 14 on Defendant's Exhibit KK is that he was worried about his 10:01:06 15 job? 10:01:08 16 A. Yes. 10:01:10 17 Q. Now, you read the testimony of Mr. Wagner, did you not? 10:01:22 18 A. Maybe you can refresh my memory on that one. 10:01:25 19 Q. Mr. Wagner is the man who provided the work for Donald 10:01:39 20 Schell. His name is Ronald Wagner, and it is mentioned in 10:01:44 21 your report, if you want to look at that, under paragraph 4. 10:01:49 22 It is about the eighth line down, the line that starts with, 10:01:54 23 "Neva Hardy..." 10:02:23 24 It is paragraph 4. Did you find that? 10:02:26 25 A. Yes, I found that. 1271 10:02:28 1 Q. You're aware, then, that Mr. Wagner told Donald Schell at 10:02:32 2 the beginning of this week when he died that Donald Schell 10:02:41 3 could take as long as he needed off from work and that he had 10:02:46 4 a job when he came back; isn't that true? 10:02:53 5 A. That's right. 10:03:11 6 Q. Let me make sure I'm clear on this. I understood from 10:03:14 7 your report that you understood that Mr. Patel -- excuse 10:03:26 8 me -- that Mr. Schell had given up his job, but he hadn't 10:03:31 9 really given up his job, had he? 10:03:33 10 A. He turned over his work to Mr. Nelson, as I recall, 10:03:37 11 because he couldn't do the work. 10:03:38 12 Q. But you wouldn't mean to imply here that he wasn't 10:03:41 13 planning to go back to work, would you? 10:03:45 14 A. I don't know whether he was planning to go back to work or 10:03:47 15 not. 10:03:50 16 Q. So you really couldn't say he had given up his job, could 10:03:53 17 you? 10:03:53 18 A. He gave his work to Mr. Nelson. There's also in the 10:03:57 19 depositions and records of Dr. Patel clearly stating that he 10:04:03 20 was concerned about his job, concerned about oil prices 10:04:06 21 falling, concerned about a number of things concerning his 10:04:10 22 work. 10:04:14 23 Q. You're not discounting what Mr. Wagner said about he could 10:04:17 24 have his -- he could come back to work, take off whatever 10:04:20 25 time he needed and he still had a job, right? 1272 10:04:23 1 A. I think there's a difference between what someone tells 10:04:26 2 him and what he really thinks is happening. You have to 10:04:28 3 realize, this man is depressed. He's very hopeless. His 10:04:33 4 view of the future is very dismal. So in answer to the 10:04:37 5 question as to whether he planned to go back to work, I can't 10:04:40 6 tell. He may not have even seen a future for himself. 10:04:44 7 Things were changing for him. 10:04:45 8 Q. One of the things that you had mentioned was that his wife 10:04:47 9 was becoming a successful real estate agent. Isn't that one 10:04:51 10 of the things you based your report on? 10:04:54 11 A. She had begun working and was doing the job. There was 10:04:58 12 some conflicts in terms of her being away from the home, for 10:05:04 13 example. Mr. Schell, according to Miss McGrath, really 10:05:08 14 wanted her home by 4:00 and at times she did not make it home 10:05:12 15 at 4:00, and in fact, the night before the murder/suicide, 10:05:16 16 she didn't arrive home until around 9:00 at night. 10:05:19 17 So that there's a lot of conflict here, not only in 10:05:23 18 terms of Mr. Schell's occupation and his outlook for the 10:05:27 19 future, but also Mrs. Schell's role and shifting within the 10:05:32 20 family, something that fits into my type that I just 10:05:37 21 described. 10:05:38 22 Q. So that's why you said in your report that his wife was 10:05:41 23 becoming a successful real estate agent, right? 10:05:46 24 A. Yes. 10:05:47 25 Q. In fact, you even referred to the fact that she was close 1273 10:05:50 1 to being in the million-dollar club, correct? 10:05:53 2 A. I didn't say that. Did I say that? 10:05:57 3 Q. Yeah, you said that. 10:05:58 4 A. Let me say it has been a while since I wrote that. 10:06:01 5 Q. Top of page 6, she was close to being in the 10:06:04 6 million-dollar club? 10:06:05 7 A. I may have said it, yes, because I remember Mr. Tobin had 10:06:08 8 said that. According to Mr. Tobin's deposition, she was 10:06:12 9 described as close to being in the million-dollar club. So 10:06:14 10 that's what I based that statement on. 10:06:16 11 Q. Has anyone informed you of Mrs. McGrath's testimony of 10:06:20 12 yesterday that Rita Schell was not a successful real estate 10:06:27 13 agent? 10:06:29 14 A. No, but I think in her deposition she discussed that 10:06:32 15 because Mrs. Schell wasn't able to give the hours necessary 10:06:35 16 and that because of that, she really was struggling in terms 10:06:39 17 of being a real estate agent. That was in her deposition. I 10:06:42 18 don't know what she said yesterday. 10:06:43 19 Q. So it wouldn't be correct for you to say in your report, 10:06:51 20 would it, that, quotes, his wife was becoming a successful 10:06:51 21 real estate agent? 10:06:51 22 A. I'm basing this on the deposition of Mr. Tobin and others. 10:06:55 23 I didn't have -- I'm not sure when I had the deposition of 10:06:57 24 Mrs. McGrath. It was much later than Mr. Tobin's deposition. 10:07:28 25 Q. Were you informed of the testimony, which the jury will 1274 10:07:30 1 recall better than I will, I'm sure, of Dr. Ian Hudson from 10:07:36 2 SmithKline Beecham who testified here? 10:07:38 3 A. No. 10:07:38 4 Q. You're not aware of that? 10:07:39 5 A. I've been told he testified but I've not been told what he 10:07:42 6 testified about. 10:07:42 7 Q. I take it you would disagree with his statement that no 10:07:45 8 one could determine whether Paxil did or did not cause Donald 10:07:54 9 Schell to do what he did? 10:07:57 10 A. What did he say? 10:07:58 11 Q. That's the essence of what he said. 10:08:00 12 A. I would like to know what he said, not the essence of what 10:08:03 13 he said. 10:08:04 14 MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Vickery -- may I ask while I'm 10:08:06 15 going to another topic Mr. Vickery to -- 10:08:10 16 MR. VICKERY: I will find the section of the 10:08:11 17 deposition. I will find it. 10:08:14 18 MR. FITZGERALD: It was played on video. 10:08:17 19 THE COURT: I recall. 10:08:40 20 Q. (BY MR. FITZGERALD) One of the things I noted in your 10:08:41 21 report was you noted at the time that Mr. Schell transferred 10:08:45 22 his books for the well job that Kevin Nelson observed 10:08:50 23 Mr. Schell to be noticeably pale and shaking; is that 10:08:53 24 correct? 10:08:54 25 A. That's correct. 1275 10:08:54 1 Q. But you did not, unless I missed it, report that when he 10:09:01 2 saw Dr. Patel, Dr. Patel did not notice any shaking? 10:09:17 3 A. I don't think that's quite true. May I look at my report? 10:09:19 4 Q. Sure. If it is in there I would like to know. 10:09:22 5 A. Well, in Dr. Patel's records, this is February 11th, 10:09:25 6 Mr. Schell reported that he was not able to rest and not able 10:09:28 7 to sleep, that he felt tired, edgy, anxious and listless and 10:09:33 8 didn't want to do anything. He said his mind was running at 10:09:36 9 a hundred-mile-per-hour speed. 10:09:38 10 I think that would qualify as being nervous, edgy. 10:09:42 11 He didn't say anything about being pale, but certainly the 10:09:44 12 man was very anxious at the time. 10:09:46 13 Q. And my question was shaky. Dr. Patel did not find 10:09:51 14 shakiness, did he? 10:09:52 15 A. He doesn't say shaky, per se, but he certainly is 10:09:56 16 describing a man who was very upset and very anxious. 10:10:00 17 Q. Are you aware of the fact that Dr. Patel has testified in 10:10:04 18 his deposition when he was asked on page 21 at line 11, "Did 10:10:09 19 you find shakiness?" that he testified no, he did not? 10:10:13 20 A. I'll take your word for it. 10:10:16 21 Q. And also that, "And you examined for it and if you had 10:10:19 22 found it you would have recorded it, right?" And he said, 10:10:22 23 "Correct." 10:10:23 24 A. Yes. 10:10:49 25 MR. FITZGERALD: Maybe this would be appropriate to 1276 10:10:51 1 approach the witness, rather than read it to him. 10:10:54 2 THE COURT: Why don't you read it? 10:10:55 3 A. What is the document? 10:10:57 4 Q. (BY MR. FITZGERALD) This is Dr. Ian R.B. Hudson on page 10:11:01 5 31 of his testimony by deposition which was reviewed by video 10:11:06 6 here. 10:11:08 7 On line 9, page 31, this question was asked: "Now, 10:11:12 8 is it impossible for SmithKline Beecham to determine whether 10:11:15 9 the patient identified in the fifth report on the bottom of 10:11:19 10 that page -- whether his behavior was caused or not caused by 10:11:23 11 Paxil?" 10:11:25 12 His answer was, "On an individual case basis it would 10:11:28 13 be impossible to say whether a drug caused an event." 10:11:32 14 Then this question came: "Do you know if that 10:11:37 15 patient that is reflected down there is the decedent, my 10:11:41 16 client? Is that Donald Schell?" 10:11:43 17 "Answer: I believe it is, yes." 10:11:46 18 "Question: You're telling me under oath it is simply 10:11:49 19 impossible for SmithKline Beecham to decide whether or not 10:11:52 20 Paxil did cause Mr. Schell to murder his wife, his daughter 10:11:56 21 and his granddaughter and then commit suicide; is that right, 10:12:00 22 sir?" 10:12:00 23 He said, "It is impossible on an individual case 10:12:03 24 basis from individual reports to assign causality, especially 10:12:06 25 in a very complicated area such as this. That's why when we 1277 10:12:10 1 have issues we review all the available data and make a 10:12:13 2 determination on the basis of all the available data whether 10:12:17 3 there is an issue or not." 10:12:19 4 A. I've not reviewed that deposition, but I think on an 10:12:22 5 individual case basis, yes, it would be impossible to 10:12:28 6 determine whether Paxil did cause something. 10:12:30 7 Q. Or did not? 10:12:31 8 A. Or did not. However, you have to realize my testimony 10:12:34 9 here is primarily, almost completely involved with testimony 10:12:37 10 about murder/suicide, which this is, and plus presenting my 10:12:41 11 own research on murder/suicide where it was clearly able to 10:12:48 12 determine whether the murderer was on an antidepressant and 10:12:55 13 whether that antidepressant may have been associated with the 10:12:56 14 murder. 10:12:59 15 Again, 128 were not on antidepressants. 10:13:06 16 Q. Dr. Tardiff, let me just ask you a couple of other areas. 10:13:11 17 You're on a web page for Cornell, right? 10:13:15 18 A. I believe so. 10:13:16 19 Q. You've not looked at it? 10:13:17 20 A. No. 10:13:18 21 Q. Well, did you furnish the information about what your 10:13:20 22 plans and your current projects are for the Cornell web page? 10:13:25 23 A. I may have done that years ago. I don't know how often 10:13:28 24 they revise it. 10:13:29 25 Q. Okay. Well, and that's one of the things I wanted to ask 1278 10:13:32 1 you. There's a description on your web page about current 10:13:38 2 projects and it says, "Our current projects include, 4, we 10:13:45 3 plan to expand our studies of homicide by studying 10:13:49 4 perpetrators. Conversely, in our psychiatric patients we 10:13:53 5 will study them as the victims of violence." 10:13:55 6 So that was a project that was current as of when? 10:14:01 7 A. I don't know. It is an ongoing project. 10:14:04 8 Q. Okay. Now -- 10:14:08 9 A. We have done that. We have done that. 10:14:13 10 Q. And you would consider Don Schell to be a psychiatric 10:14:16 11 patient, would you not? 10:14:17 12 A. Yes. 10:14:18 13 Q. So your plan as far as your work at Cornell goes would be 10:14:20 14 to study psychiatric patients as victims of violence, 10:14:24 15 correct? 10:14:25 16 A. Yes. 10:14:25 17 Q. All right. Now, Doctor, the -- 10:14:29 18 A. What I'm talking about, okay, is, for example, one study 10:14:34 19 are victims of domestic abuse who are also psychiatric 10:14:40 20 patients. And I'll give you an example of one study we did. 10:14:43 21 We looked at psychiatric inpatients and whether there was a 10:14:48 22 history of sexual or physical abuse. 10:14:50 23 We then interview them in a hospital. We then also 10:14:54 24 interview them about a whole wide range of things like 10:14:57 25 suicide attempts, violence, drug abuse. And in one paper 1279 10:15:01 1 which was recently published, we found that victims of sexual 10:15:06 2 or physical abuse were more likely than psychiatric patients 10:15:09 3 who were not physically abused or sexually abused, to be 10:15:13 4 addicted to drugs, particularly opiates, heroin. 10:15:21 5 Q. Now, Doctor, you've testified since -- going to the period 10:15:30 6 of April 3rd, 2001, just a little over a month ago, you had 10:15:36 7 in the past four years testified by trial or deposition as a 10:15:40 8 witness in 17 cases; isn't that true? 10:15:45 9 A. That's correct. 10:15:45 10 Q. And you were not new to that area of giving testimony? I 10:15:55 11 mean, you did it before starting four years ago, right? 10:15:58 12 A. Yes. Is there a question? 10:16:22 13 Q. That's my question. I wanted to know if that's right. 10:16:22 14 A. That's correct. 10:16:22 15 MR. FITZGERALD: May I have a moment, please, Your 10:16:22 16 Honor? 10:16:22 17 THE COURT: Yes, you may. 10:16:50 18 MR. FITZGERALD: Nothing further. 10:16:51 19 THE COURT: Any redirect? 10:16:53 20 MR. PREUSS: No, Your Honor. 10:16:53 21 THE COURT: May this witness be permanently excused? 10:16:56 22 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes. 10:16:57 23 THE COURT: Thank you, Dr. Tardiff, and you're 10:16:59 24 excused from further attendance at this trial. 10:17:03 25 Counsel, who is your next witness? 1280 10:17:06 1 MR. GORMAN: We would call Detective Sergeant Steve 10:17:13 2 Rozier, Your Honor. 10:18:02 3 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, may I give Exhibit KK to 10:18:05 4 the clerk? 10:18:08 5 MR. PREUSS: They're all on there. Can you just flip 10:18:11 6 it? 10:18:12 7 MR. FITZGERALD: Sure. 10:18:35 8 (Witness sworn.) 10:18:37 9 THE CLERK: Please state your name and spell it for 10:18:40 10 the record. 10:18:47 11 THE WITNESS: My name is Steven C. Rozier, 10:18:50 12 R O Z I E R. 10:18:54 13 MR. GORMAN: Good morning, Your Honor. I haven't had 10:18:57 14 a chance to say good morning. 10:18:58 15 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. 10:18:59 16 THE COURT: Mr. Gorman. 17 18 STEVEN ROZIER, 19 called as a witness on behalf of the Defendant, being first 20 duly sworn, testified as follows: 21 DIRECT EXAMINATION 10:19:02 22 Q. (BY MR. GORMAN) It is Detective Sergeant Rozier; is that 10:19:06 23 correct? 10:19:07 24 A. Yes, sir, it is. 10:19:08 25 Q. Tell us where you reside, Detective Rozier. 1281 10:19:14 1 A. I reside in Gillette, Wyoming. 10:19:16 2 Q. And you're currently employed in what capacity? 10:19:21 3 A. I'm the detective sergeant at the Gillette Police 10:19:24 4 Department, detective division supervisor. 10:19:26 5 Q. And what does it mean to be a detective sergeant or 10:19:31 6 supervisor of the detective division in the Gillette Police 10:19:34 7 Department? 10:19:35 8 A. I oversee the Gillette Police Department detective 10:19:42 9 division. I have five detectives who work under me. I also 10:19:47 10 have one officer who I share control of who is assigned to 10:19:57 11 the Northeast Wyoming Drug Enforcement Team. 10:20:01 12 And my responsibilities include general investigation 10:20:06 13 and various types of crimes that occur in Gillette. I also 10:20:11 14 supervise the other detectives in the division in their case 10:20:15 15 assignments and their caseloads. 10:20:30 16 I review and approve reports and conduct criminal 10:20:30 17 investigations at crime scenes and also delegate assignments 10:20:31 18 out on the larger cases when we have several detectives 10:20:35 19 working a particular crime or crime scene. 10:20:39 20 Q. In the capacity and with the job responsibilities that you 10:20:47 21 just described, is that the role that you served in 10:20:47 22 connection with murder/suicide that took place in the Schell 10:20:52 23 residence on February 13th of 1998? 10:20:55 24 A. Yes, it is. 10:20:58 25 Q. How many years have you been doing your job? 1282 10:21:03 1 A. I've been with the police department -- I started in July 10:21:05 2 of 1980 and in 1989 I was promoted to detective sergeant, and 10:21:14 3 I've been the detective sergeant since '89. 10:21:18 4 So I've been in law enforcement 20 years and 10:21:22 5 approximately six months -- correction -- almost ten months 10:21:28 6 now and as supervisor a little over 11 years. 10:21:34 7 Q. Tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury, if you would, 10:21:37 8 your educational background and what type of training you 10:21:39 9 have received as a police officer. 10:21:42 10 A. I attended -- when I graduated high school, served a tour 10:21:50 11 of duty in the military, the Army, after which I applied at 10:21:53 12 the -- my first role in law enforcement was at the Gillette, 10:21:58 13 Wyoming Police Department. 10:21:59 14 I applied there in 1980. That was after I had done 10:22:05 15 some contract narcotic investigation for the police 10:22:08 16 department. And then in '80 I applied and went with the 10:22:13 17 department full time. 10:22:17 18 And approximately two years after that I attended the 10:22:20 19 Wyoming Law Enforcement Academy located at Douglas, Wyoming. 10:22:25 20 I graduated from that academy. 10:22:29 21 Over the course of my 20 years I've received a little 10:22:35 22 over 1400 hours of law enforcement training in various areas 10:22:41 23 of investigation and criminal investigation and police 10:22:50 24 actions. 10:22:51 25 Q. Are you a certified police officer in the state of 1283 10:22:54 1 Wyoming? 10:22:54 2 A. I hold a professional certificate from the POST office 10:23:00 3 from the State of Wyoming. 10:23:02 4 Q. And how does one achieve that status in this state? 10:23:09 5 A. It is a process whereby you receive credit for the number 10:23:13 6 of hours of training that you receive over the course of your 10:23:17 7 career, and when you reach certain levels of training, you 10:23:24 8 are awarded certificates, starting with basic up through 10:23:28 9 intermediate and into professional law enforcement officer 10:23:32 10 status. 10:23:33 11 Q. And when did you receive your professional law enforcement 10:23:38 12 ranking? 10:23:40 13 A. It was over ten years ago. I could not give you the 10:23:42 14 specific date. I don't have the certificate with me. 10:23:45 15 Q. Do you have to -- lawyers have to do continuing legal 10:23:48 16 education. As a professional police officer do you have to 10:23:52 17 continue to recertify or have your professional certificate 10:23:58 18 renewed? 10:24:00 19 A. Yes, you do. It is issued and there are requirements to 10:24:06 20 continue and to participate in ongoing law enforcement 10:24:12 21 education, and that's done through regional schools, it is 10:24:16 22 done through schools that you can attend at the Wyoming Law 10:24:22 23 Enforcement Academy. You can also attend schools outside of 10:24:26 24 your region, anything that would qualify for what the State 10:24:31 25 of Wyoming would determine is POST credit through the Police 1284 10:24:36 1 Officers Standards and Training Commission could be credited 10:24:41 2 towards your maintaining a specific certificate rating. 10:24:50 3 Q. Now, were you the detective who supervised or was in 10:24:53 4 charge of the investigation into the murder/suicides 10:24:57 5 involving Mr. Schell? 10:24:58 6 A. Yes, I was. 10:25:00 7 Q. Could you tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury how 10:25:02 8 you became involved in the Schell investigation. 10:25:06 9 A. In our department because of its size we take turns in the 10:25:13 10 detective division rotating what is called on-call status 10:25:17 11 because in the event that a crime should occur within the 10:25:21 12 city, it is very possible that a detective or investigator 10:25:27 13 could be needed after the normal business hours. 10:25:32 14 Primarily my division works Monday through Friday and 10:25:37 15 we have people on staff from 8:00 in the morning until 6:00 10:25:40 16 p.m. in the evening. 10:25:42 17 However, when events occur after 6:00 p.m., there's 10:25:46 18 an on-call status that's maintained and each of the 10:25:50 19 detectives, including myself, take a rotational call. And 10:25:57 20 our call lasts a week at a time and, of course, the next 10:26:04 21 person comes on call. 10:26:05 22 On this particular occasion the detective on call was 10:26:08 23 Kent Clark. And whenever there is a homicide within the 10:26:12 24 city, whether I'm on call or not, the detective sergeant is 10:26:18 25 notified and does respond to those types of situations just 1285 10:26:23 1 because of the complexity of some of the cases that we run 10:26:26 2 into. 10:26:27 3 Q. And the detective sergeant was you? 10:26:29 4 A. Yes, it was. 10:26:32 5 Q. And you have your file with you. Is that the file from 10:26:35 6 the Gillette Police Department? 10:26:38 7 A. I have part of the file here and there's -- it was 10:26:41 8 obviously a pretty big file, but this contains most of the 10:26:44 9 materials. 10:26:45 10 Q. Can you tell us when you responded to the call involving 10:26:49 11 the Schell incident? 10:26:52 12 A. Would have been at approximately 7:30. I believe the time 10:27:00 13 noted in one of the reports is noted as 7:38 p.m. and that 10:27:09 14 was approximately 25 to 30 minutes after the initial call was 10:27:13 15 dispatched. 10:27:20 16 Q. And we're talking about 7:38 p.m. on February 13th of 10:27:20 17 1998? 10:27:20 18 A. Yes. 10:27:20 19 Q. Did you respond to the scene? 10:27:22 20 A. Yes, I did. 10:27:22 21 Q. What did you find when you arrived at the scene? 10:27:25 22 A. When I arrived there I first met with the uniformed 10:27:28 23 officers on the scene. The primary officer at that time was 10:27:34 24 Officer Michael Wenz, and Michael Wenz gave me a briefing as 10:27:40 25 to the nature of the call he was dispatched on, which was a 1286 10:27:44 1 welfare check. 10:28:21 2 A welfare check is a call that's dispatched by the 10:28:21 3 police department to one of the patrol officers who is 10:28:21 4 working to go to a particular area or location, meet with 10:28:21 5 whoever has made the call, and determine the nature of the 10:28:21 6 request and if possible to a welfare check on whoever the 10:28:21 7 parties would be concerned about. 10:28:21 8 Mike Wenz relayed that to me and he said that the 10:28:21 9 person he met at the Schell home was Timothy Tobin and that 10:28:25 10 Timothy had concerns about the welfare of his wife and 10:28:29 11 daughter and his in-laws. 10:28:35 12 And Mike Wenz continued to brief me about entry into 10:28:39 13 the home and going to the upper level of the home and 10:28:42 14 discovering four dead bodies in what was later determined to 10:28:48 15 be the master bedroom of that home. 10:28:53 16 MR. GORMAN: Your Honor, would you like to take your 10:28:54 17 break now? 10:28:55 18 THE COURT: Maybe that would be a good idea. Let's 10:28:57 19 do that at this time. We will take our morning recess and 10:29:00 20 stand in recess for 15 minutes. 10:29:04 21 (Recess taken 10:29 a.m. until 10:45 a.m.) 10:48:05 22 THE COURT: Detective Rozier, you understand you're 10:48:08 23 still under oath? 10:48:10 24 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, I do. 10:48:12 25 THE COURT: Please be seated. 1287 10:48:13 1 Q. (BY MR. GORMAN) We -- I think we're at a point where you 10:48:24 2 were getting your briefing from Officer Wenz and you were 10:48:27 3 talking about the briefing you received in terms of what was 10:48:29 4 found when Officer Wenz initially entered the home. 10:48:34 5 Could you continue with your discussion about your 10:48:35 6 briefing in that respect? 10:48:38 7 A. After Officer Wenz informed me that he had responded to 10:48:43 8 the Schell home, he had met with Tim Tobin, that Tim had 10:48:52 9 relayed to Officer Wenz his concerns about his wife and 10:48:56 10 daughter as well as his in-laws, at that point Officer Wenz 10:49:04 11 informed me that he along with Tim Tobin and a neighbor 10:49:08 12 entered the Schell house and proceeded to do a cursory search 10:49:16 13 through the house to see if anyone was home. 10:49:20 14 Officer Wenz informed me that upon reaching the upper 10:49:23 15 level of the house and proceeding down the hallway, that as 10:49:29 16 they approached what was later determined to be the master 10:49:32 17 bedroom door, that Officer Wenz could see four deceased human 10:49:40 18 bodies in the room and that Tim Tobin was right behind 10:49:47 19 Officer Wenz coming down the hallway towards the room, and 10:49:53 20 that once Officer Wenz saw this scene, he immediately tried 10:49:56 21 to turn around and to usher Mr. Tobin out of the residence. 10:50:04 22 Mr. Tobin was taken outside of the residence and at 10:50:11 23 that time he was very upset and Officer Wenz asked if he 10:50:16 24 could go to the neighbor's house and wait with the neighbor 10:50:22 25 while Officer Wenz did some follow-up. 1288 10:50:24 1 Q. And the neighbor was Vernon Brown? 10:50:28 2 A. Yes, sir. 10:50:28 3 Q. Okay. When -- strike that. 10:50:35 4 Were EMTs called to the scene? 10:50:37 5 A. Yes, they were. 10:50:38 6 Q. And do you recall who those people were and why they were 10:50:43 7 called? 10:50:46 8 A. One of the EMTs I remember was Tim Williams. And usually 10:50:54 9 anytime we arrive at a scene, the officers, while they are 10:50:59 10 trained in emergency procedures, CPR, things of that nature, 10:51:05 11 they still don't have EMT or medical status, so it is pretty 10:51:13 12 much a call by the officer at the scene to call medical 10:51:18 13 personnel to get them on the scene in the event they're 10:51:22 14 needed. 10:51:23 15 In this particular case they were brought to the 10:51:27 16 scene. Officer Wenz escorted them up to the master bedroom 10:51:32 17 area where the EMTs made a determination that resuscitation 10:51:39 18 or attempts to revive in this case would be unnecessary or 10:51:44 19 would be futile. 10:51:48 20 Q. Now, the reports I believe in the case indicate that the 10:51:51 21 EMTs were a Mr. Tim Williams, as you've mentioned, and a 10:51:56 22 Mr. Duane Montoya? 10:51:58 23 A. Yes, sir, that's correct. 10:51:59 24 Q. After Mr. Williams and Mr. Montoya assessed the situation, 10:52:05 25 what next happened? 1289 10:52:06 1 A. At that point the EMTs were ushered from the residence. 10:52:13 2 One of the things that is very necessary in investigations, 10:52:19 3 any investigation, but particularly in an investigation of 10:52:22 4 death, is to preserve or protect a crime scene so that 10:52:27 5 there's minimal contamination of the scene so that as it 10:52:37 6 is -- as investigators begin to work the scene, that it is 10:52:39 7 uncontaminated by outside people more than absolutely -- no 10:52:51 8 more than absolutely necessary. The EMTs are ushered from 10:52:55 9 the residence. Additional officers are brought in to secure 10:53:00 10 that scene. Mr. Tobin is sent next door to Vernon Brown's 10:53:04 11 residence to remain. 10:53:06 12 And once the EMTs were done inside the residence, 10:53:09 13 they also went to -- at the request of Mr. Brown went over to 10:53:19 14 check on Mr. Tobin due to the circumstances and make sure 10:53:23 15 that his condition was monitored. 10:53:30 16 Q. Does there come a time when Mr. Eekhoff is called, the 10:53:34 17 coroner? 10:54:07 18 A. Tom Eekhoff is the coroner for Campbell County. He's 10:54:07 19 contacted in the normal course of operations in death scenes. 10:54:07 20 He was contacted. I was contacted and I responded as well. 10:54:07 21 When Mr. Eekhoff arrived there, as the coroner he was 10:54:07 22 then taken into the scene for one purpose. As coroner, he 10:54:09 23 has responsibilities and also assists in determining time of 10:54:14 24 death and things of that nature that will aid us in the 10:54:20 25 investigation later. 1290 10:54:22 1 Q. And did Mr. -- is it Eekhoff? 10:54:24 2 A. Eekhoff. 10:54:25 3 Q. Did Mr. Eekhoff do that in this case? 10:54:28 4 A. Yes, he did. 10:54:29 5 Q. I also understand that the Wyoming State Crime Lab was 10:54:32 6 notified. Why was that? 10:54:37 7 A. Gillette is a -- Gillette is not Los Angeles. It is a 10:54:43 8 small community and the resources that are offered through 10:54:53 9 the Wyoming State Crime Lab to any small agency within 10:54:56 10 Wyoming are, to some degree, much superior than you can find 10:55:03 11 on a local level in terms of evidence collection, collection 10:55:06 12 technicians, forensic scientists and also equipment needed to 10:55:12 13 process a crime scene of this nature. 10:55:15 14 This is a fairly large, complex crime scene to be 10:55:24 15 worked by a local agency, and the resources are there so we 10:55:28 16 utilize those resources, as well as other resources that were 10:55:33 17 called in were investigators from the Northeast Wyoming Drug 10:55:38 18 Enforcement Team. They also assist in serious felony crimes. 10:55:43 19 I also made contact with the Campbell County 10:55:45 20 Sheriff's Office investigative division to have them respond 10:55:53 21 and to also be on standby in the event we needed additional 10:56:00 22 manpower. 10:56:01 23 Q. Was the Campbell County coroner, Mr. Eekhoff, able, based 10:56:06 24 upon his inspection and analysis of the scene, to make a 10:56:11 25 determination regarding times of death? 1291 10:56:14 1 A. He came up with a time frame roughly from late Thursday 10:56:22 2 evening up until sometime early Friday morning, was about as 10:56:30 3 close as he could get. He could not give a specific time, 10:56:37 4 for instance, 2:00 a.m. or 3:00 a.m. 10:56:44 5 Q. What happens now? Does the investigation into the facts 10:56:46 6 and circumstances begin? 10:56:49 7 A. It does, as well as at this point in our investigation 10:56:55 8 what we know is we have four people who have died, apparently 10:57:01 9 as a result of gunshot wounds. Our investigation at that 10:57:06 10 point begins to focus on getting the resources to work this 10:57:11 11 crime scene as well as to begin to develop suspects to try to 10:57:20 12 ascertain who is responsible for these deaths. 10:57:24 13 One of the sources of information that we had to 10:57:28 14 follow up on was Tim Tobin in terms of the information he 10:57:33 15 could supply us about why his wife and daughter were in 10:57:37 16 Gillette when we learned that he lived in Billings. 10:57:44 17 We also have to enter an investigation like this 10:57:47 18 looking across a fairly wide spectrum and not just focus on 10:57:55 19 an individual person or theory, so one of the things that 10:58:03 20 became important to us early on was to determine Tim Tobin's 10:58:07 21 role in discovering the bodies as well as what he knew about 10:58:16 22 the circumstances at hand, and, quite frankly, whether or not 10:58:21 23 he was involved. 10:58:24 24 Q. What steps, Detective, were taken to secure the scene 10:58:28 25 during the investigation? 1292 10:58:30 1 A. The scene was controlled by uniformed officers who 10:58:37 2 maintained a perimeter around the residence to keep any 10:58:44 3 unauthorized persons from entering the property. And those 10:58:49 4 officers were stationed there and remained there until the 10:58:53 5 conclusion of our investigation. 10:58:55 6 Q. And what, in a nutshell, would your responsibilities be in 10:59:01 7 connection with the investigation, then, that was to follow? 10:59:05 8 A. I would direct individuals, officers and investigators, to 10:59:15 9 complete specific tasks, also to make notifications of the 10:59:20 10 people that we needed to notify. For instance, the upper 10:59:23 11 staff at police department, chief and lieutenants, are 10:59:29 12 notified in cases like this. And also, briefings are held at 10:59:31 13 the police department, in this case to reduce and control any 10:59:38 14 contamination of the crime scene. 10:59:41 15 Q. Now, was there more than one scene to investigate in 10:59:46 16 connection with this crime? 10:59:48 17 A. Yes, there was. 10:59:49 18 Q. How many scenes were there and what steps were taken just 10:59:54 19 generally to investigate those scenes? 10:59:58 20 A. Well, the residence at 701 West Fifth, the house itself, 11:00:04 21 was a scene. There were also vehicles that were associated 11:00:07 22 with that residence that were additional scenes that needed 11:00:11 23 to be processed, one being the vehicle that Tim Tobin drove 11:00:16 24 down from Billings. 11:00:18 25 Additionally, there was what might be described as 1293 11:00:26 1 another scene which would be the Tobin residence in Billings, 11:00:29 2 Montana, and that became one of the concerns that we had to 11:00:34 3 address as well in an effort to rule out Mr. Tim Tobin as 11:00:46 4 having any involvement in this particular incident. 11:00:51 5 Q. You were able to do that, to rule out Mr. Tobin as a 11:00:55 6 suspect? 11:00:55 7 A. Yes, we were. 11:00:56 8 Q. And we will go into that a little bit. 11:00:58 9 Were there other scenes? We have the car, the Schell 11:01:02 10 residence, the residence -- Tobin residence in Billings. Any 11:01:08 11 others that were -- 11:01:09 12 A. Not necessarily that needed to be processed as a crime 11:01:12 13 scene, but there were other locations that we needed to 11:01:19 14 address with investigators in terms of looking for evidence. 11:01:24 15 Q. And what -- tell us what some of those were. 11:01:27 16 A. For instance, the office at -- that Rita Schell worked at, 11:01:31 17 Boardwalk ERA Realty. There was also another son by the name 11:01:39 18 of Michael Schell who lived in Colorado, Westminster, I 11:01:44 19 believe, who we needed to make a determination as to where he 11:01:56 20 was and if he had any information that would shed light on 11:02:00 21 this incident. 11:02:02 22 Q. Go ahead. 11:02:03 23 A. And at this point we have to have real concern that 11:02:08 24 whoever is responsible for these deaths may be outside these 11:02:11 25 residences. We can't rush up, take a look in a room and 1294 11:02:14 1 decide this is what happened. We have to approach it from a 11:02:20 2 multifaceted standpoint in the event someone has committed 11:02:26 3 these homicides and is outside the residence in the community 11:02:29 4 somewhere. 11:02:32 5 Q. We mentioned Mr. Tobin. He was ruled out as a suspect? 11:02:36 6 A. Yes, sir. 11:02:36 7 Q. And you mentioned Mr. Schell, Michael Schell, the son. 11:02:41 8 Efforts were made also to rule him out as a suspect, true? 11:02:44 9 A. Yes, sir. 11:02:45 10 Q. Was Mr. Mike Schell also ruled out by your investigation 11:02:48 11 as a suspect in this case? 11:02:50 12 A. Yes, he was. 11:02:55 13 Q. Then because you were able to rule out Mr. Tobin and Mike 11:03:00 14 Schell, did your focus then go back into the Schell residence 11:03:04 15 in Gillette? 11:03:10 16 A. Our focus was always there in terms of the evidentiary 11:03:13 17 value that's within this residence, but we still did not 11:03:20 18 close our eyes to potential outside involvement of others. 11:03:24 19 And at that point when the crime team from the lab 11:03:28 20 showed up, we began to process the scene and we were able to 11:03:31 21 make some determinations from the scene. 11:03:33 22 Q. Can you tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury how the 11:03:37 23 crime scene then in the Schell home was processed? 11:03:41 24 A. Yes. The first thing that usually takes place in a crime 11:03:46 25 scene, that did take place in this scene, was overall 1295 11:03:50 1 photography of the crime scene. 11:03:53 2 The State Crime Lab scientist arrived. They were 11:03:56 3 given a briefing on the location of the residence. A search 11:04:02 4 warrant was procured for that residence because that's a 11:04:06 5 requirement the State Crime Lab has before they'll enter and 11:04:11 6 process. 11:04:11 7 Once they were briefed, determination of duties was 11:04:18 8 developed as to who would photograph, who would sketch and 11:04:22 9 those duties were broken up amongst the crime scene and 11:04:28 10 investigators. 11:04:30 11 And then the team went to the Schell house and began 11:04:34 12 to photograph and work their way from the lower levels 11:04:42 13 through the house up to the living room level and then up the 11:04:47 14 hallway to the master bedroom level. 11:04:51 15 Q. Was it you who organized this investigation or this 11:04:54 16 processing? 11:04:55 17 A. In part. It was a collective process. In terms of actual 11:05:06 18 people involved, yes, I made that determination. The crime 11:05:14 19 lab, though, has procedures that they follow and those 11:05:19 20 were -- they had their say and it was kind of a group effort 11:05:22 21 to get it done. 11:05:25 22 Q. In part of processing the crime scene in a crime like this 11:05:30 23 is it standard procedure to remove medications from a crime 11:05:37 24 scene? 11:05:39 25 A. Yes, it is. 1296 11:05:40 1 Q. And why is that? 11:05:44 2 A. One of the -- and you have to understand, this particular 11:05:50 3 crime scene did not take just one hour to process. This was 11:05:57 4 actually over a day to process this scene. And as part of 11:06:02 5 that we are looking for anything that might be of evidentiary 11:06:08 6 value, as well as things that we don't know if they will come 11:06:18 7 into play later. 11:06:18 8 So in scenes like this we're going to seize 11:06:18 9 medication prescriptions. They can give us information as to 11:06:23 10 identities of people in the household. 11:06:26 11 Q. Do you know from your review of the record or you have 11:06:29 12 independent knowledge of how much medication was seized in 11:06:32 13 this particular investigation? 11:06:37 14 A. I believe it is documented in one of the reports. I think 11:06:41 15 there -- Paxil was one of the medications that was removed, 11:06:47 16 as well as a medication called Ambien, and there were a 11:06:52 17 couple of other medications that were removed that I believe 11:07:03 18 might have been prescribed for Deb Tobin. 11:07:06 19 Q. I show a report here, I think it is -- and you will have 11:07:12 20 to help us out. It is a supplemental report from officer 11:07:19 21 designated as 230. It shows that nine containers of pills 11:07:28 22 and medication and one container of prescription medication 11:07:31 23 was taken. 11:07:33 24 Does that comport with your recollection? 11:07:36 25 A. Yes, sir, it would. And 230 is the badge number for 1297 11:07:41 1 Detective Kent Clark and that would mean he was the one that 11:07:45 2 authored that report. 11:07:47 3 Q. Now, we -- you told the ladies and gentlemen of the jury 11:07:52 4 based upon -- and let's back up. In order to process, for 11:07:58 5 example, the scene of the Tobin home in Billings, you 11:08:03 6 actually sent investigators to Billings to undertake some 11:08:07 7 investigation in that respect, true? 11:08:08 8 A. Yes, we did. 11:08:09 9 Q. And with respect to Michael Schell, you had investigators 11:08:13 10 in Colorado follow up with Mr. Schell, true? 11:08:15 11 A. Yes, we did. 11:08:16 12 Q. And based upon those investigations, as we indicated, you 11:08:23 13 were able to rule out Mr. Tobin as a suspect in this crime 11:08:26 14 and Mike Schell, true? 11:08:28 15 A. Yes, sir. 11:08:29 16 Q. Were you able, based upon your processing of the scene, to 11:08:35 17 rule out any other outside perpetrators of this crime? 11:08:41 18 MR. FITZGERALD: Excuse me, Your Honor. I don't know 11:08:42 19 whether we're going to go into the area of opinions here 11:08:46 20 or -- 11:08:47 21 MR. GORMAN: We're not. 11:08:48 22 MR. FITZGERALD: We have a stipulation on virtually 11:08:50 23 all of this, and I'm objecting if this is going to lead to an 11:08:55 24 opinion. 11:08:57 25 THE COURT: Overruled at this point. 1298 11:09:02 1 Q. (BY MR. GORMAN) Were you -- you ruled out Mr. Tobin, you 11:09:05 2 ruled out Mr. Schell. You told the ladies and gentlemen of 11:09:08 3 the jury you can't go into a scene and just not as a matter 11:09:14 4 of course rule out an outside person, outside person coming 11:09:19 5 into the home to commit the crime, true? 11:09:21 6 A. Yes, sir. 11:09:21 7 Q. Based upon -- is that one of the issues that is a standard 11:09:27 8 practice in a crime scene investigation like this, is to rule 11:09:32 9 out or rule in outside perpetrators? 11:09:35 10 A. Yes, sir. 11:09:36 11 Q. Did you do that in this case? 11:09:39 12 A. Yes, we did. 11:09:40 13 Q. And would you tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury 11:09:42 14 how you either ruled in or ruled out an outside perpetrator 11:09:47 15 in this case? 11:09:48 16 A. Well, one of the things that we were able to do when we 11:09:55 17 were processing the scene is examine the house in its 11:10:02 18 entirety. The actual bedroom in which the deaths occurred 11:10:08 19 had quite a bit of biological material in the way of blood 11:10:14 20 and human material. This particular residence has a very 11:10:19 21 light-colored carpet and this light-colored carpet runs down 11:10:23 22 through the hallway. 11:10:25 23 By working the scene and the entire house as we did, 11:10:32 24 we were able to find no evidence that anyone was in that room 11:10:38 25 that left the room and would have left trace evidence, for 1299 11:10:44 1 instance, blood spots or footprints or things like that going 11:10:47 2 down the hallway. And we could find no evidence to indicate 11:10:54 3 that anybody had been in the room and had left the room after 11:11:00 4 the shots were fired. 11:11:06 5 Q. In conducting an investigation like this, what types of 11:11:10 6 reports are generated, then, to assist in the investigation? 11:11:17 7 A. There are reports generated from the Wyoming State Crime 11:11:23 8 Lab in terms of their actual role in seizing and preserving 11:11:31 9 evidence. 11:11:31 10 There are autopsy reports that are generated by the 11:11:34 11 State Crime Lab and the pathologist who would do the 11:11:37 12 autopsies. 11:11:39 13 There are reports generated by the individual 11:11:42 14 officers involved in the crime scene investigation. 11:11:53 15 There would be reports and death certificates 11:11:56 16 produced by the coroner's office. 11:11:58 17 There are also affidavits supporting search warrants 11:12:01 18 that are part of the record in a case like this. 11:12:08 19 Q. In your role as the supervisor or detective sergeant of 11:12:11 20 the operation, do you review these reports when they are, in 11:12:15 21 fact, presented to you? 11:12:16 22 A. Yes, I do. 11:12:18 23 Q. In analyzing a crime scene like this is it also customary 11:12:24 24 to make efforts to determine bullet paths or trajectories? 11:12:35 25 A. Yes, it is. 1300 11:12:36 1 Q. Was that done in this case? 11:12:37 2 A. Yes, it was. 11:13:30 3 Q. And to attempt to locate bullets or shell casings? 11:13:30 4 A. Yes, it is. 11:13:30 5 Q. And was that done in this case? 11:13:30 6 A. Yes, it was. 11:13:30 7 Q. Why are reports like the type you've just prepared -- why 11:13:30 8 do you prepare reports like this in the course of a crime 11:13:30 9 investigation? 11:13:30 10 A. In order to make a determination or resolve what occurred 11:13:30 11 in a crime the crime scene is important, but you have to take 11:13:30 12 the crime scene, the actual physical location where the crime 11:13:30 13 occurred and couple that with information obtained by 11:13:30 14 numerous other officers who have been assigned to numerous 11:13:30 15 other tasks. 11:13:30 16 All of those officers generate a report which 11:13:41 17 preserves, I guess, in written form information they've 11:13:44 18 received from other individuals as well as information they 11:13:49 19 have seen and documented themselves. 11:13:50 20 And a compilation of all of those things has to be 11:13:53 21 put together and has to be looked at to come up with the, I 11:13:59 22 guess, the end result or the conclusion as to what occurred. 11:14:02 23 Q. Is the information in -- excuse me. Are all efforts made 11:14:09 24 in gathering the information and preparing the reports -- is 11:14:13 25 it important to make the reports accurate and complete? 1301 11:14:16 1 A. Yes, it is. 11:14:19 2 Q. Now, do you know the investigators who worked this crime 11:14:24 3 scene? 11:14:26 4 A. Yes, I do. 11:14:30 5 Q. Did you review their reports? 11:14:33 6 A. Yes, I did. 11:14:34 7 Q. Do you believe the reports that were prepared for this 11:14:39 8 event to be reliable and trustworthy? 11:14:43 9 A. Yes, I do. 11:14:44 10 Q. And that the information in the reports about this crime 11:14:48 11 is accurate? 11:14:51 12 A. Yes, I do. 11:14:54 13 Q. What did you learn about the weapons that were found at 11:14:58 14 the scene of this crime? 11:15:02 15 A. I learned that both weapons were located inside the master 11:15:07 16 bedroom, that a .22 caliber revolver, being one of the 11:15:15 17 weapons, was located on the end of the bed in the master 11:15:18 18 bedroom on the corner closest to the door. 11:15:23 19 The other revolver, a .357 magnum Python, was found 11:15:44 20 on the floor at the foot of the bed in the area of Don 11:15:44 21 Schell's left hand. I also learned that the .22 caliber 11:15:48 22 pistol had six spent cartridges; in other words, six fired 11:15:55 23 cartridges because there were six empty casings in the 11:15:58 24 revolver. 11:16:00 25 Additionally, the .357 magnum had four spent casings 1302 11:16:05 1 or expended casings, meaning that it had been shot four times 11:16:33 2 and there were still two live cartridges in there. 11:16:33 3 Q. You said that a diagram was made of the crime scene? 11:16:33 4 A. Yes, sir. 11:16:33 5 MR. GORMAN: I'm going to show the ladies and 11:16:33 6 gentlemen of the jury, Judge, page 114 of Joint Exhibit 243. 11:16:42 7 Q. (BY MR. GORMAN) And I want you, first of all, Detective 11:16:52 8 Rozier, to look at this document and tell us -- I don't know 11:16:55 9 if we can focus that better -- is this the diagram that was 11:16:59 10 prepared as a result of the investigation that was done into 11:17:06 11 this crime? 11:17:07 12 A. Yes, it is. 11:17:12 13 Q. Now, there's a few things I need to -- and you have a 11:17:16 14 pointer there. I think you can see on your screen. Could 11:17:20 15 you just orient the ladies and gentlemen of the jury to -- 11:17:26 16 you mentioned a southwest bedroom, the master bedroom. Could 11:17:30 17 you identify that on the exhibit for us? 11:17:35 18 A. It would be located right here, this bedroom. This is the 11:17:40 19 doorway and this is the bed in the master bedroom and that is 11:17:45 20 a dresser and that is a dresser bureau. 11:17:53 21 Q. Would you quickly identify the other areas of the home 11:17:55 22 that are shown on the exhibit? 11:17:59 23 A. This appeared to be a guest room that would have been 11:18:03 24 occupied by Deb Tobin. This appears to be set up as a baby 11:18:08 25 room. This is the upstairs bathroom and this is the 1303 11:18:17 1 kitchen/dining room area, and this is the living room and 11:18:21 2 this would be the front door going out of the residence. 11:18:25 3 This is the hallway from the master bedroom and the 11:18:29 4 guest room and the baby room, and there are steps that go 11:18:32 5 down to this particular level, and then there's another set 11:18:36 6 of steps that go down to a lower level in the home. 11:18:42 7 Q. Now, you mention the beds in what would be the southwest 11:18:50 8 bedroom and the northwest bedroom and there's some marks 11:18:54 9 drawn across the beds. 11:18:57 10 For example, let's look at the northwest bedroom. 11:19:01 11 What are those marks meant to depict? 11:19:09 12 A. These marks depict the covers on the bed being down, in 11:19:12 13 other words, the bed is not made and that's the artist's 11:19:18 14 depiction of that. 11:19:19 15 And then in the southwest bedroom, this line across 11:19:24 16 here indicates that the covers from the bed are down, rolled 11:19:30 17 back. 11:19:30 18 Q. Did it appear, based upon your analysis of the crime 11:19:37 19 scene, that the beds had been slept in during the course of 11:19:42 20 the night that led to these events? 11:19:45 21 A. It appeared to me that the -- that people had been in 11:19:50 22 those beds. 11:19:54 23 Q. Okay. Now, you had mentioned the positioning of some 11:20:07 24 weapons -- 11:20:10 25 MR. GORMA