1 NO. 90-CI-6033 JEFFERSON CIRCUIT COURT DIVISION ONE (1) 2 3 JOYCE FENTRESS, ET AL. PLAINTIFFS 4 5 VS. DEPOSITION FOR PLAINTIFFS 6 7 SHEA COMMUNICATIONS, ET AL. DEFENDANTS 8 * * * * * * * * * * 9 10 DEPONENT: GREGORY BRICKLER 11 DATE: DECEMBER 1, 1993 12 13 * * * * * * * * * * 14 15 16 REPORTER: KATHY NOLD 17 18 KENTUCKIANA REPORTERS SUITE 260 19 730 WEST MAIN STREET LOUISVILLE, KENTUCKY 40202 20 (502) 589-2273 Page 1 1 * * * * * * * * * * 2 3 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF INDIANA 4 INDIANAPOLIS DIVISION 5 IN RE ELI LILLY AND COMPANY ) Prozac Products Liability ) MDL Docket No. 907 6 Litigation ) 7 * * * * * * * * * * 8 NO. 91-02496-A 9 JACKIE LYNN BIFFLE, ET AL ) IN THE DISTRICT ) COURT OF 10 V. ) DALLAS COUNTY, TEXAS ) 11 ELI LILLY & COMPANY AND ) 14TH JUDICIAL DISTA PRODUCTS COMPANY ) DISTRICT 12 * * * * * * * * * * Page 2 1 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA 2 FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES 3 DR. MARIUS SAINES, etc., et al., ) Case No: 4 ) SC 008331 Plaintiffs, ) 5 ) vs. ) 6 ) ELI LILLY & COMPANY, a corporation; ) 7 DISTA PRODUCTS COMPANY, a division ) of Eli Lilly & Company; and DOBS 1- ) 8 100, inclusive, ) ) 9 Defendants. ) ____________________________________) 10 11 * * * * * * * * * * Page 3 1 THE DEPOSITION OF GREGORY BRICKLER, TAKEN AT 2 THE OFFICE OF BAKER & DANIELS, 300 NORTH MERIDIAN 3 STREET, SUITE 2700, INDIANAPOLIS, INDIANA 46204, 4 ON DECEMBER 1, 1993; SAID DEPOSITION TAKEN 5 PURSUANT TO NOTICE IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE RULES 6 OF CIVIL PROCEDURE. 7 * * * * * * * * * * 8 A P P E A R A N C E S 9 10 NANCY ZETTLER COUNSEL FOR GROUP A PLAINTIFFS 11 LEONARD M. RING AND ASSOCIATES, P.C. 111 WEST WASHINGTON AVENUE, SUITE 1333 12 CHICAGO, ILLINOIS 60602 13 LAWRENCE J. MYERS COUNSEL FOR ELI LILLY AND COMPANY 14 FREEMAN & HAWKINS 4000 ONE PEACHTREE CENTER 15 303 PEACHTREE STREET, N.E. ATLANTA, GEORGIA 30308-3243 16 CURTIS G. OLTMANS 17 ELI LILLY AND COMPANY LILLY CORPORATE CENTER 18 INDIANAPOLIS, INDIANA 46285 19 BENJAMIN E. PATTERSON COUNSEL FOR DEFENDANTS CZECHOWICZ, FINK, BRUINSMA 20 CLAUSEN MILLER GORMAN CAFFREY & WITOUS 10 SOUTH LASALLE 21 CHICAGO, ILLINOIS 60603 Page 4 1 I N D E X 2 3 DEPOSITION OF GREGORY BRICKLER 4 5 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. ZETTLER 6 6 7 CERTIFICATE 184 8 9 ERRATA 185 10 11 EXHIBITS 12 13 PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 1..................32 14 PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 2.................105 15 PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 3.................151 16 PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 4.................155 17 PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 5.................157 18 PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 6.................160 19 Page 5 1 COMES GREGORY BRICKLER, CALLED BY 2 THE PLAINTIFF, AND AFTER FIRST BEING DULY SWORN, 3 WAS DEPOSED AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS: 4 DIRECT EXAMINATION 5 BY MS. ZETTLER: 6 Q. Is it Mister or Doctor? 7 A. Mister. 8 Q. Mister Brickler, could you 9 please state your full name, for the record? 10 A. Gregory E. Brickler, 11 B-R-I-C-K-L-E-R. 12 Q. Have you ever given a 13 deposition before? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Let me give you some of the 16 ground rules then. My name is Nancy Zettler, and 17 I represent a number of plaintiffs in the 18 Fentress versus Shea Communications action, which 19 is the Wesbecker case, you may know it as, down 20 in Louisville, Kentucky. A couple of the ground 21 rules, first of all, you have to speak out loud, 22 answer out loud, because she can't take down 23 nodding your head and going uh-huh or uh-uh. And 24 of course I'll try to do the same thing. If you Page 6 1 don't understand any of my questions, I'm sure 2 Larry has told you that I tend to talk very fast 3 sometimes. 4 MR. MYERS: How can you say that. 5 Q. So if you don't understand any 6 of my questions, please tell me and I'll try to 7 slow down and I'll rephrase my question so you 8 understand it, okay? 9 A. Sure. 10 Q. If you answer the question, 11 we're going to assume you answered it as asked; 12 is that correct? 13 A. That's fair. 14 Q. Anytime you want a break, let 15 us know. We tend to take a few breaks throughout 16 the morning, so if you need a break, let me know 17 and we'll take a break at any time you want. 18 A. Okay. 19 Q. Do your best to let me finish 20 my question before you answer and I'll do the 21 same with your answers, okay? 22 A. Good. 23 Q. Could you tell me what your 24 Social Security number is? Page 7 1 A. XXXXXXXXXX. 2 Q. And your date of birth? 3 A. April 23rd, 1943. 4 Q. And your current address? 5 A. XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX 6 XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX. 7 Q. How long have you lived there? 8 A. XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX 9 XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX 10 XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX. 11 Q. Do you have any plans on moving 12 in the near future? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Are you married? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. What is your wife's name? 17 A. XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX. 18 Q. And do you have any kids? 19 A. Two. 20 Q. What are their names and ages? 21 A. XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX 22 XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX 23 XXXXXXXXXXX. 24 Q. XXXXXXXXX? Page 8 1 A. XXXXXXXXX. 2 Q. Can you give me an idea of what 3 your education was after high school, starting 4 with graduating from high school? 5 A. Sure. I went to Purdue 6 University where I received a B.S. degree from 7 the Krannert School of Industrial Management with 8 a major in industrial economics. 9 Q. Which University? 10 A. Purdue University. 11 Q. And when did you graduate from 12 Purdue? 13 A. Graduated in 1967. 14 Q. Any education after Purdue? 15 A. An MBA, Masters of Business 16 Administration from Butler University here in 17 Indianapolis. 18 Q. When did you get your MBA? 19 A. 1983 -- wait a minute, no, wait 20 a minute, not 1983, 1973. Sorry about that. 21 Q. Any other education besides 22 your Bachelor's and your MBA? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Any continuing education, Page 9 1 seminars, things of that nature? 2 A. Not really, other than internal 3 programs. 4 Q. When you say internal, you mean 5 at Lilly? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. What type of internal programs 8 have you been involved in at Lilly? 9 A. They would be programs, skill 10 development programs, programs such as targeted 11 selection, et cetera. 12 Q. What is targeted selection? 13 A. Process of interviewing, of 14 trying to work with the facts, trying to use past 15 experiences as the best indicator for the future, 16 kind of -- to try to get beyond -- in 17 interviewing, getting beyond impressions, trying 18 to deal with substance. 19 Q. What do you mean with 20 interviewing, you mean interviewing prospective 21 employees? 22 A. For example, yes. 23 Q. When you say working with the 24 facts, is that all part of the interviewing Page 10 1 process? 2 A. Right, trying not to be swayed 3 by perceptions, et cetera, yes. 4 Q. Any other skill development 5 programs that you took? 6 A. Well, sure, there's a variety 7 of things. There's the performance management 8 program, which is a program that really is what I 9 would call a marriage of MBO or management by 10 objective, and effective feedback in coaching. 11 We have programs that have dealt with the 12 reengineering activities, methods, improvement. 13 Q. Is that two different things, 14 methods, improvement? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Any others? 17 A. No, not that comes to mind. 18 Q. What are reengineering 19 activities? 20 A. Taking a look at the process. 21 It's really a program that was designed, I 22 believe, by Motorola, it's taking a look -- it's 23 a process type of training where you look at the 24 process as it is, and then you step back from it Page 11 1 and evaluate what it could be or should be, and 2 then you begin to look at gaps so that you can 3 step away from how things are today and say what 4 they could be if you didn't have any of the 5 obstacles, and then you begin looking at it. So 6 it's a technique. 7 Q. Would this be something that 8 could be used like for instance in a 9 manufacturing process? 10 A. For example, yes. 11 Q. Was this course given with a 12 specific process in mind at Lilly or was it 13 something that was used generally? 14 A. Generally. 15 Q. Did you ever use the process to 16 reengineer a process at Lilly? 17 A. I have not used the precise 18 process, no, the concept, yes. 19 Q. Did you use that concept with 20 regards to any processes at Lilly related to 21 Fluoxetine? 22 A. No. 23 Q. How about with regards to 24 reporting to the FDA in general? Page 12 1 A. No. 2 Q. How about with regards to 3 reporting of adverse events? 4 A. No. 5 Q. What is methods improvement? 6 A. Well, it's an earlier form in 7 many ways of reengineering. It's looking at, 8 again, a method of -- again, a process-related 9 activity, and taking a look at the current 10 situation, if you will. It's much the same, it's 11 probably -- it dates me because that's where I 12 came into the organization, as a methods 13 engineer. And it was the earlier or the 14 forerunner of what now is referred to as 15 reengineering. It's taking a look at what is and 16 then applying what could be. 17 Q. Does this include applying new 18 technologies that were to come up in a specific 19 area? 20 A. Sure, it could. It would take 21 that into consideration. 22 Q. Describe for me the performance 23 management program that you talked about a little 24 earlier. Page 13 1 A. Performance management is a 2 process where you look at the objectives of a 3 particular organization, and then you work to 4 align individual responsibilities and 5 expectations up front in an objective setting 6 manner such that they all are aligned to achieve 7 the overall goal. And it's a methodology that is 8 interactive during the course of fulfilling those 9 objectives, such that individuals receive 10 feedback and coaching as to how they are on track 11 or not on track to achieving those objectives, 12 and if the objectives change. 13 Q. Can you give me an example? 14 A. Sure. Let me think of one that 15 would be relevant to -- let's assume that a 16 particular department wants to have an output, 17 let's say X number of units of output, then 18 individuals within that unit will have different 19 responsibilities to achieve that so they'll be 20 defined. So if I'm a secretary, my role might be 21 to ensure that the reports, that part of the 22 objectives that I'm setting for myself in 23 achieving that ultimate objective, is that there 24 are a certain number of reports that I'm Page 14 1 responsible for. So I know that I'm responsible 2 for those, they're outlined, and the objectives 3 are set up front such that if other activities 4 come into play, that I can always refer back to 5 my original objectives because they were in 6 alignment with a larger objective. And then I 7 know that the person that I'm reporting to will 8 be evaluating me on the achievement of these 9 objectives. 10 Q. When did you start working at 11 Lilly? 12 A. In 1967. 13 Q. Have you worked for Lilly 14 continuously since '67? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. You went to Lilly right out of 17 school? 18 A. Right out of Purdue. 19 Q. Prior to starting work at 20 Lilly, other than bus boy, waiter, things of that 21 nature, what kinds of jobs did you have? 22 A. Mostly in a motel, Howard 23 Johnson's chain. This was through the high 24 school and prior to the University, and actually Page 15 1 during the University, as a desk clerk, I guess 2 would be the best way to describe it. 3 Q. Any jobs within the 4 pharmaceutical industry? 5 A. No. 6 Q. What was your first position at 7 Lilly? 8 A. Methods engineer. 9 Q. How long were you a methods 10 engineer? 11 A. For two years. 12 Q. So from when in '67 -- 13 A. Okay, in June of 1967. 14 Q. So it was approximately June of 15 '69? 16 A. It was -- yes. Approximately 17 it would have been more like May, I think, but 18 yes, May, June. 19 Q. And then what was your next 20 position? 21 A. My next position at that time 22 was as personnel representative. I moved to our 23 Lafayette facility. My initial assignment was in 24 Indianapolis, the first two years, and then I Page 16 1 moved to Lafayette in 1969. 2 Q. And how long were you personnel 3 representative? 4 A. Four years, until 1973. 5 Q. Okay. And after that? 6 A. In 1973 I moved to Omaha, 7 Nebraska, where I was responsible for a fill and 8 finish operation, with our Elanco products 9 division in Omaha. 10 Q. Which product? 11 A. Elanco. 12 Q. Could you spell that? 13 A. E-L-A-N-C-O. 14 Q. Did you have a title at that 15 time? 16 A. Department head, fill and 17 finish. 18 Q. And then how long were you the 19 department head for fill and finish? 20 A. Approximately -- let me 21 explain. Through a five-year period there, I had 22 three assignments, so the timing may be off a 23 little bit here. 24 Q. To the best of your Page 17 1 recollection. 2 A. Sure. I was department head 3 for approximately a year and a half, then was 4 named department head of personnel in Omaha. And 5 I did that for approximately a year, and then 6 became manager of manufacturing -- or the fill 7 and finish, and distribution, at Omaha, so kind 8 of a series of three. It was a small operation. 9 Q. So, from 1973 through 1978, you 10 were working in Nebraska? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And in those three various 13 duties that you just described for us? 14 A. Precisely. 15 Q. Did you then move back to 16 Indianapolis? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Where did you go next? 19 A. Next, in 1978, in roughly 20 September, I moved to Germany. 21 Q. Okay. And where in Germany? 22 A. We lived in Bad Homburg. 23 Q. And what did you do in Bad 24 Homburg? Page 18 1 A. I was responsible for 2 manufacturing of our Giessen, G-I-E-S-S-E-N, 3 operations. Giessen is a city in Germany, we 4 just refer to it as Giessen. 5 Q. A lot of my relatives are from 6 there, Zettler, not from Bad Homburg, but from 7 Germany. 8 A. Okay. 9 Q. You said you were responsible 10 for manufacturing there? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. How long -- what was your title 13 back then? 14 A. Let's see, director of Giessen 15 operations. 16 Q. And how long were you director 17 of Giessen operations? 18 A. For the time I was in Germany, 19 which would have been until January of 1981. 20 Q. Okay. 21 A. During the course of that two 22 years, two plus years that I was there, I 23 assumed, midway through, the personnel 24 responsibilities for Germany as well. So it Page 19 1 became -- it went from a single focus, director 2 of operations, to a dual focus, director of 3 operations plus HR, human resources. 4 Q. So director of human resources? 5 A. Yes. The official title at 6 that time, I believe, would have been director of 7 personnel. 8 Q. Okay. After leaving the 9 position of director of Giessen operations, 10 slash, director of human resources, what position 11 did you hold? 12 A. I moved to Caracas, Venezuela, 13 and was general manager of our Venezuelan 14 operations. 15 Q. Okay. That was 1981? 16 A. That was 1981, January. 17 Q. How long were you general 18 manager of the Venezuelan operations in Caracas? 19 A. Until around August of 1983. 20 Q. Okay. And when you say general 21 manager, did you have responsibility over all of -- 22 A. Yes, for the operations in 23 Venezuela. 24 Q. Manufacturing, research, Page 20 1 whatever was being done there? 2 A. Precisely, as at Lilly. 3 Q. And in January of '83, what 4 position did you overtake? 5 A. January of '83? 6 MR. MYERS: August. 7 Q. I'm sorry, August of '83. 8 A. August of '83, I returned to 9 Indianapolis where I had what I would call -- and 10 this is my terminology -- a reentry position 11 called director of special projects. My 12 definition for that is that it was a reentry 13 since I had been out, and a refamiliarization 14 with what was going on basically in the general 15 business of Lilly. 16 Q. We'll get into more detail as 17 to what your responsibilities were, I'm just 18 trying to get an idea of what you were doing. 19 A. Sure. 20 Q. How long were you in this 21 reentry position? 22 A. Roughly six months. 23 Q. So until about February or 24 March of '94? Page 21 1 A. Yes, March, April, I think it 2 was. 3 Q. Okay. And what position did 4 you hold in March or April of '84? 5 A. Director of personnel. 6 Q. How long did you hold the 7 position of director of personnel? 8 A. Until April of '88. 9 Q. And then what position did you 10 hold? 11 A. Then I moved to London where I 12 was director of European personnel, and was there 13 until April, May of '92. 14 Q. Are you back here in the U.S. 15 now? 16 A. I'm now here. 17 Q. And as of May of '92, what 18 position did you hold? 19 A. Executive director of Lilly 20 Research Laboratories. 21 Q. And how long have you held that 22 position? 23 A. I'm sorry? 24 Q. Do you still hold that position Page 22 1 today? 2 A. Yes. 3 MS. ZETTLER: Why don't we do this, 4 take a quick break and then I'll get my notes in 5 order. 6 (A SHORT RECESS WAS TAKEN.) 7 Q. (BY MS. ZETTLER) Tell me what 8 your responsibilities were as a methods engineer 9 when you first started at Lilly in '67. 10 A. Project related would be the 11 way I would define it. 12 Q. So your responsibilities varied 13 depending upon the project you worked on? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. What kind of projects were you 16 working on at that time, can you just give me 17 generally? 18 A. Sure. It could be an office 19 layout, for example, an office is expanding by 20 five people, and how are we going to fit it in. 21 And look at the work flow and layout. 22 Q. Between June of '67 and June of 23 '69, did you work on any projects as a method 24 engineer that related to psychopharmaceuticals? Page 23 1 A. No. 2 Q. Did you work on any projects 3 related to Fluoxetine Hydrochloride? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Did you work on any projects 6 related to reporting to the FDA? 7 A. No. 8 Q. When I say reporting to the 9 FDA, I mean in any manner, adverse events, 10 clinical report forms? 11 A. In no way. 12 Q. Then approximately June of '67 13 to 1973, you were personnel representative at the 14 Lafayette site? 15 A. What was the dating again? 16 Q. June of '69, I'm sorry, to 17 1973. 18 A. I'm sorry? 19 Q. Through 1973. And then you 20 were personnel representative in Lafayette? 21 A. Correct. 22 Q. Tell me what your duties were 23 as personnel representative in Lafayette. 24 A. Again, varied. It dealt with Page 24 1 recruiting of plant employees, serving as a 2 representative of employee issues, which could be 3 positive and negative. I mean an employee might 4 be having difficulty with supervision as an 5 example, or it might be one of career development 6 that an individual might be interested in. 7 Q. Was any research or testing 8 being done at the Lafayette site or was that a 9 manufacturing site? 10 A. It was a manufacturing site. 11 Q. To your knowledge were any 12 clinical trials run at that site? 13 A. To my knowledge, no. 14 Q. To your knowledge, during the 15 time that you worked there, was Fluoxetine 16 Hydrochloride manufactured at that site? 17 A. To my knowledge, no. 18 Q. Were any of your duties at 19 Lafayette related in any way to the 20 manufacturing, development, production and 21 testing of Fluoxetine? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Okay. Then from 1973 to 1978, 24 you worked in Omaha? Page 25 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And various positions in the 3 Elanco products division? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. When you say you were 6 department -- the head of fill and finish, is 7 that a manufacturing position? 8 A. It would be a way of defining 9 it as manufacturing, but literally fill and 10 finish, we would fill and finish labeling, 11 various Elanco products. 12 Q. Generally, what types of 13 products fall under the Elanco purview? 14 A. At that time we had -- the 15 primary product was Tylosin for ingestion. 16 Q. I'm sorry what was that? 17 A. Tylosin. 18 Q. Can you spell that? 19 A. T-Y-L-O-S-I-N. 20 Q. Is that drug on the market? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. What type of drug is it? 23 A. It's an injectable antibiotic. 24 MR. OLTMANS: Before Nancy wastes a lot Page 26 1 of time, why don't you tell her what the Elanco 2 division is intended for, what are the products 3 Elanco makes, are they intended for humans or 4 animals. 5 A. They're strictly for animals. 6 Q. Any Fluoxetine for animals? 7 A. No. 8 Q. You never know. 9 (DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD.) 10 Q. So I take it none of your 11 responsibilities in Nebraska related in any way 12 to Fluoxetine? 13 A. None. 14 Q. From September of '78 through 15 January of '81, you were in Bad Homburg? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And at that time you were the 18 director of Giessen operations, primarily 19 manufacturing and human resources? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Does Lilly have a research 22 facility in Bad Homburg? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Are you familiar with a man Page 27 1 named Hans Weber? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Who is Doctor Weber? 4 A. He's the medical director of 5 the German affiliate. 6 Q. Was he medical director when 7 you worked there? 8 A. No. 9 Q. When you say German affiliate, 10 what do you mean? 11 A. That organization responsible 12 for Germany. 13 Q. Is that an affiliate located in 14 Bad Homburg? 15 A. Yes, it's -- yes. It's also in 16 Giessen. 17 Q. Was Doctor Weber's facility the 18 same as the facility that you worked at when you 19 were in Bad Homburg? 20 A. I'm not sure I understand. 21 Q. I'm trying to understand. I 22 asked you earlier if there was a research 23 facility there and you said no. 24 A. Maybe we need to define Page 28 1 research. 2 Q. Okay. What type of work did 3 Doctor Weber do, to your knowledge, or does he 4 do, to your knowledge? 5 A. It would be does he do today 6 because he wasn't there then. 7 Q. Okay. 8 A. To my knowledge, he is the 9 medical -- the person responsible for the conduct 10 of our medical activities in Germany. 11 Q. When you say medical 12 activities, what do you mean? 13 A. Well, I'm not sure that I would 14 know everything that he's involved in, quite 15 frankly. 16 Q. Tell me what you do remember. 17 A. He would be a person 18 responsible for the conducting of clinical trials 19 in Germany. 20 Q. That's what I meant by 21 research. 22 A. Okay. 23 Q. Do you know when Doctor Weber 24 became medical director? Page 29 1 A. No. 2 Q. Do you know when he began 3 working for Lilly? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Is he the person with primary 6 responsibility for running the German affiliate 7 or is there somebody he answers to over there? 8 A. He reports to a general 9 manager. 10 Q. Who is the general manager? 11 A. Today that's Burt Vandenberg. 12 Q. Burt Vandenberg? 13 A. Uh-huh. 14 Q. Who was medical director of the 15 Giessen affiliate before Doctor Weber? 16 MR. MYERS: You mean the German 17 affiliate? 18 MS. ZETTLER: Yes. 19 A. I honestly don't know. 20 Q. Was there a medical director 21 while you were there? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Who was the medical director? 24 A. There was a gentleman by the Page 30 1 name of Doctor Gunter Ahlert, I believe 2 A-H-L-E-R-T. 3 Q. Have you ever heard of a B.V. 4 Keitz, K-E-I-T-Z? 5 A. Keitz. Not as a single entity, 6 Keitz. Is there -- 7 Q. How about a Doctor Oesterreich, 8 O-E-S-T-E-R-R-E-I-C-H? 9 A. No, I don't know -- oh, I'm 10 sorry, Oesterreich. How did you spell that? 11 Q. It's spelled on here 12 O-E-S-T-E-R-R-E-I-C-H. 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Who is Doctor -- how do you 15 pronounce it? 16 A. Oesterreich. I'm tracking with 17 you. She is a physician. More than that, I 18 don't know. 19 Q. Is she a Lilly physician at the 20 Bad Homburg site? 21 A. Was at one time. 22 Q. Is she still with the company, 23 to your knowledge? 24 A. To my knowledge, yes. Page 31 1 Q. Do you know where she is now? 2 A. To my knowledge, she is in 3 England. 4 Q. How is it that you're familiar 5 with Doctor Oesterreich? 6 A. In the role that I had in 7 London, I was involved with her movement from 8 Germany to England. 9 Q. So as personnel you had 10 transferred her? 11 A. It was a facilitating role. 12 (DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD.) 13 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 1 WAS 14 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION AND 15 RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE.). 16 Q. Do you want to take a look at 17 Exhibit 1? 18 MR. MYERS: Do you want him to read the 19 whole thing? 20 MS. ZETTLER: No, I'm going to try to 21 refresh his recollection. 22 A. In the back of my mind I knew a 23 von Keitz, and that's what that would have been, 24 and that's why I was wondering if it was Keitz Page 32 1 alone, I didn't know, but von Keitz -- and even 2 more than that, I don't really know, but the name 3 I'm aware of, von Keitz. 4 Q. So it's B. von Keitz? 5 A. If this is the individual I'm 6 thinking of, yes -- and it was a lady, and I only 7 remember her being referred to as Frau von Keitz. 8 Q. I only took one semester of 9 high school German. 10 A. I appreciate that. 11 Q. Do you know if Ms. von Keitz is 12 a doctor? 13 A. I don't know. 14 Q. Do you know if she still works 15 in Bad Homburg? 16 A. I don't know. 17 Q. Could you take a quick look at 18 this, you don't have to read it in detail. 19 A. Sure. You mean you want me to 20 scan through page by page? 21 Q. Yes, I want to get an idea if 22 you recognize it is what I'm asking. 23 A. Oh, okay. No. 24 Q. No, okay. On the third page of Page 33 1 the exhibit, there's a person mentioned at the 2 bottom of the page, Doctor H. N. Schulze-Solce? 3 A. Schulze-Solce. 4 Q. Schulze-Solce? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Is that a he or she? 7 A. That's a he. 8 Q. Are you familiar with Doctor 9 Schulze-Solce? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. How are you familiar with 12 Doctor Schulze-Solce? 13 A. He was a physician in Germany 14 and served as medical director in Germany. 15 Q. So he was in Doctor Weber's 16 position prior to Doctor Weber? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Okay. 19 A. He was in Doctor Weber's role 20 when he was here in the United States during a 21 period of time. 22 Q. When Doctor Schulze-Solce was 23 here? 24 A. When Doctor Weber was here. Page 34 1 Q. So he filled in for Doctor 2 Weber when Doctor Weber was here? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Do you remember when that was? 5 A. No, I don't. 6 Q. Was that while you were here? 7 A. No, I was not here. I could 8 only guess. 9 Q. Were you in Germany? 10 A. No, I was not in Germany. I 11 would have been in London at that time. 12 Q. So sometime between April of 13 '88 and May of '92? 14 A. Oh, yes -- well, I say that as 15 if it's factual, it's going to be within that 16 time frame. 17 Q. Within that time frame? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Do you know why Doctor Weber 20 was over here? 21 A. No, I'm not -- I was not 22 directly involved. 23 Q. Do you know how long he was 24 over here? Page 35 1 A. No. Approximately two years, I 2 think. 3 Q. But while he was here, Doctor 4 Weber held the title of medical director for the 5 German affiliate? 6 MR. MYERS: While he was here? 7 A. I don't believe so. 8 Q. Okay. Do you know what title 9 he held while he was here? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Do you know what Doctor 12 Schulze-Solce -- 13 A. Schulze-Solce? 14 Q. Yes. Do you know what Doctor 15 Schulze-Solce is doing now? 16 A. I know where he's at, he's in 17 Japan. And to the best of my knowledge, he's the 18 medical director. 19 Q. Earlier you testified that 20 Gunter Ahlert was medical director while you were 21 in Germany. 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Do you know where Doctor Ahlert 24 is now? Page 36 1 A. No. 2 Q. Do you know if he's still at 3 the company? 4 A. No, he's not. 5 Q. Do you know when he left the 6 company? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Do you know why he left the 9 company? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Do you know when Fluoxetine was 12 approved for marketing in Germany? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Do you know if it currently is 15 being marketed in Germany? 16 A. I'm pretty certain it is, yes. 17 Q. Do you have any 18 responsibilities related to getting a drug 19 approved for marketing in Germany? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Okay. Venezuela, 1981 through 22 August of '83, correct? 23 A. Uh-huh. 24 Q. And you were general manager of Page 37 1 operations there? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. I'm sorry, before we move on, 4 who does Doctor Weber report to, if you know? 5 A. He reports to Bert Vanderberg. 6 Q. Okay. Do you know who Doctor 7 Schulze-Solce would have reported to when he was 8 medical director? 9 A. He would have reported to the 10 general manager as well. 11 Q. Was that Bert Vanderberg at 12 that time? 13 A. I'm trying to think, that's why 14 I used the title. If there was an overlap there, 15 I don't believe there was, he would have reported 16 to Claude Bouchy. 17 Q. Who was general manager when 18 you were in Bad Homburg? 19 A. In the time that I was there, 20 Doctor Torlef Spickschen. 21 Q. Spell it, please. 22 A. T-O-R-E-L-F -- T-O-R-L-E-F, I 23 apologize. Spickschen, S-P-I-C-K -- it's been a 24 long time -- S-C-H-E-N. Page 38 1 MR. MYERS: Just like it sounds. 2 Q. Do you know where Torlef 3 Spickschen is now? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Is he with the company still? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Do you know when he left the 8 company? 9 A. No. 10 Q. How about Doctor Bouchy? 11 A. What about? 12 Q. Is he still with the company? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Do you know where he is? 15 A. Where? 16 Q. Yes. 17 A. To the best of my knowledge, in 18 France. 19 Q. Do you know what he's doing 20 now? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Do you know when he left the 23 company? 24 A. Approximately 1991, and that's Page 39 1 a rough approximation. 2 Q. Just to the best of your 3 recollection. 4 A. Sure. 5 Q. Do you know where he is in 6 France? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Was he German or French? 9 A. French. 10 Q. Do you know why he left the 11 company? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Okay. Venezuela, give me a 14 general description of what the operations were 15 down there. Were they manufacturing, was there 16 an testing facility? 17 A. We had a small manufacturing 18 unit, that was it. 19 Q. That was it? 20 A. Uh-huh. 21 Q. What type of drugs were 22 manufactured there? 23 A. We packaged sterile products 24 that would have been imported, antibiotics, Page 40 1 insulin, and manufactured Merthiolate, creams. 2 Q. When you say to be imported, 3 you mean imported back in the United States? 4 A. No, imported into Venezuela. 5 Q. Okay. Any psychotropic 6 medications? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Is there any testing facilities 9 at the Venezuelan site? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Any clinical trials run out of 12 that site? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Let's go back to Nebraska. To 15 your knowledge, was any animal testing, testing 16 on drugs, done in Nebraska while you were there? 17 A. No. 18 Q. To your knowledge were any 19 animal testing on drugs done at that facility at 20 any time? And I'm not talking drugs for animals, 21 I'm talking about drugs for humans. 22 A. No, not to my knowledge. The 23 reason I'm hesitating a bit is that there was a 24 time several years -- I mean many years ago, Page 41 1 apparently, where there would have been animals 2 on that site, but that was for, to my knowledge, 3 animal products. 4 Q. Okay. To your knowledge, did 5 the Venezuelan site have any responsibilities 6 whatsoever related to Fluoxetine Hydrochloride? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Are there any research 9 facilities, Lilly research facilities, in 10 Venezuela? 11 A. No, not to my knowledge. 12 Q. Okay. August of '83 to Spring 13 of '84, April or May, you were director of 14 special projects in Indianapolis; correct? 15 A. Uh-huh. 16 MR. MYERS: You need to say yes. 17 A. Yes, I'm sorry. 18 Q. You're doing really well. What 19 kinds of special projects were you working on? 20 A. There were two projects 21 primarily. One dealt with putting together a 22 user manual, if you will, on wholesaler activity. 23 And the second really dealt with a relief sales 24 assignment. Page 42 1 Q. What do you mean when you say 2 relief sales assignment? 3 A. Replacing a sales 4 representative in a territory for a three-month 5 period. 6 Q. You personally replaced a sales 7 representative? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Was that -- when did that occur 10 within the period that you worked? 11 A. October, November, December. 12 It was sandwiched around the other project. 13 Q. So October, November, December -- 14 A. Of '83. 15 Q. Okay. Let me finish my 16 question, she can't take us both down at the same 17 time. 18 A. I'm sorry, okay. 19 Q. It will drive her nuts if we 20 keep doing that. What territory did you work in? 21 A. It was the Hollywood territory. 22 Q. Hollywood, California, I take 23 it? 24 A. Yes. Page 43 1 Q. Was there any particular reason 2 why you had to replace a sales rep in that 3 territory? 4 A. That sales rep was being 5 transferred. 6 Q. I take it you detailed products 7 to various customers? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. What types of products did you 10 detail? 11 A. Ceclor, Keflex, Ilosone. 12 Q. Could you spell that? 13 A. I-L-O-S-O-N-E. 14 Q. Are all three of those drugs on 15 the market? 16 A. Certainly Ceclor and Keflex. I 17 believe Ilosone still is, it's been a number of 18 years. 19 Q. Any other drugs that you 20 detailed? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Any medical devices? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Any veterinary pharmaceuticals? Page 44 1 A. No. 2 Q. Did you go through a training 3 period to take over for this sales rep? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Do you remember what your 6 training was like? 7 A. It was a three and a half week 8 program. 9 Q. Okay. And what did that 10 program entail? 11 A. It focused on some of the 12 basics of those particular products. 13 Q. What were these various drugs 14 used to treat? 15 A. A variety of infections. 16 Q. So they're basically 17 antibiotics? 18 A. They're antibiotics, yes. 19 Q. Were you given information 20 regarding the etiology of various infections, 21 things of that nature? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Who gave you that information? 24 A. It was provided by the sales Page 45 1 training department. 2 Q. Do you know where they got the 3 information? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Were you asked to do any 6 independent research on the etiology of any of 7 the disease processes that these drugs were meant 8 to treat? 9 A. Research? 10 Q. Right, independent medical 11 research. 12 A. No. 13 Q. When you were given this 14 position, was it with the understanding that it 15 was going to be a short-term assignment? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Were you given an abbreviated 18 training program or did you go through the full 19 training program for detail people? 20 A. I went through the full 21 program. 22 Q. Do you have an understanding of 23 Lilly's practices, for lack of a better phrase, 24 on what types of drugs people would detail? In Page 46 1 other words, would you have somebody who would be 2 detailing antibiotics also detailing 3 antidepressants? 4 MR. MYERS: At that point in time? 5 Q. Right, let's start with that 6 point in time. 7 A. At that point in time, that 8 wasn't happening, no. 9 Q. So somebody who would be 10 assigned to detailing antibiotics would 11 concentrate on antibiotics, and somebody else may 12 detail to the same medical group for instance for 13 antidepressants or some other type of drug? 14 A. To my knowledge we did not have 15 an antidepressant at that time, so it was a 16 non-issue, to my knowledge. 17 Q. Other types of drugs, like, 18 say, insulin or things of that nature? 19 A. Okay. Insulin would be a part 20 of that portfolio of products. 21 Q. The same portfolio as Keflex, 22 Ceclor and Ilosone? 23 A. Precisely. 24 Q. Did you have any psychotropic Page 47 1 drugs whatsoever back then? 2 A. Not that I'm aware of. 3 Q. How about now, do you know if 4 they detail -- somebody who would detail, say, 5 the portfolio including Ceclor, Keflex, Ilosone, 6 Insulin, would also detail antidepressants? 7 A. I sincerely don't know how 8 they're structured today. 9 Q. Are you familiar with the DISTA 10 Products Company? 11 A. As an entity, as a name. 12 Q. Can you tell me what your 13 understanding of DISTA is? 14 A. It's a division of Lilly. 15 Q. Do you know what its purpose 16 is? 17 A. No. I mean I would -- I've not 18 been involved with that. 19 Q. When you were a detail man, did 20 you work for DISTA or did you work for Lilly? 21 A. Lilly. 22 Q. Was there a division within 23 Lilly that you worked for, or within Lilly is 24 there a sales division that you would have worked Page 48 1 for? 2 A. The Lilly -- it was just Lilly, 3 Lilly sales division. 4 Q. Were you a Select Product 5 representative? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Do you know what a Select 8 Product representative is? 9 A. No, no. 10 Q. When you were a detail man, 11 were you paid a commission? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Do you know if the detail 14 people now are paid commissions on sales? 15 A. No. 16 Q. No, you don't know or no, they 17 aren't? 18 A. No, I don't know. 19 Q. Around this period of time that 20 you worked as a detail man, you were also working 21 on this other project putting together a user 22 manual on wholesaler activity; correct? 23 A. It was sandwiched. The sales -- 24 it was not a combination, so there was a piece of Page 49 1 time before and after the sales assignment that I 2 was working on the manual, not during. 3 Q. Okay. So you worked on the 4 manual before you became a detail man, and then 5 you went back to working on it after you left? 6 A. Precisely. 7 Q. Describe for me, what is a user 8 manual on wholesale activity, a wholesaler 9 activity, I'm sorry? 10 A. Boy it was a long time ago. It 11 was a manual that was designed to help new sales 12 representives understand distribution and 13 wholesaling activity. 14 Q. So it was an educational tool? 15 A. It was an educational tool. 16 Q. Why would it be important for 17 them to understand the wholesaler activity? 18 A. One example could be or would 19 be that a sales rep would get a call, for 20 example, late at night by a physician who felt 21 they needed something rapidly, and how they -- 22 who to contact, where to contact them, and how to 23 get something happening so that they understood 24 the distribution system. Page 50 1 Q. Did this distribution system 2 vary according to drug or type of drug? 3 A. Not to my knowledge. 4 Q. Did your responsibilities as 5 director of special projects relate in any way to 6 Fluoxetine Hydrochloride? 7 A. No. 8 Q. How about any other 9 psychotropic drugs? 10 A. No. 11 Q. To your knowledge was the 12 wholesaler activity user manual that you 13 developed used at any time in detailing 14 Fluoxetine? 15 A. No, not to my knowledge. 16 Q. Okay. Spring of '84 through 17 Spring of '88. Director of personnel in 18 Indianapolis; correct? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And could you give me an idea 21 of generally what your responsibilities in that 22 position were? 23 A. Generally the responsibilities 24 centered around again recruitment and Page 51 1 development. 2 Q. When you say development, what 3 do you mean? 4 A. Development of individuals, 5 helping to facilitate career development, 6 individual skill development, and resource 7 planning. 8 Q. Okay. Were you director of 9 personnel for the entire Indianapolis office? 10 A. No. 11 Q. What areas were you responsible 12 for? 13 A. The areas that I had during the 14 course of that time were administration, which 15 covers a variety of administrative groups -- 16 Q. I'm sorry? 17 A. A variety of administrative 18 groups, and medical. 19 Q. Did you personally interview 20 all prospective employees? 21 A. All, not all. 22 Q. Okay. Which types of employees 23 would you have personally interviewed? 24 A. Generally focused on any Page 52 1 mid-career recruitment or -- 2 Q. I'm sorry, go ahead. 3 A. Or professional recruitment. 4 Q. Say physicians? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. What do you mean by mid-career 7 recruitment? 8 A. If we were needing or looking 9 for a lot of experience in a particular area, as 10 an example, say, accounting, where you needed a 11 qualified CPA. 12 Q. So you're talking about 13 interviewing people from outside or people who 14 are being -- 15 A. From outside. 16 Q. Did you interview people that 17 were being transferred within the organization? 18 A. Yes, from a process 19 perspective. 20 Q. What do you mean by from a 21 process perspective? 22 A. That if an individual was 23 moving from position A to position B, the 24 management of position A and the management of Page 53 1 position B would be dealing with the substantive 2 sorts of discussions, and I would be dealing with 3 the kind of things of how are you feeling as an 4 individual, are you getting the right kind of 5 information, do you feel good about the kinds of 6 decisions that are being made about your career, 7 that sort of thing, so that they had an ear to 8 discuss. 9 Q. So department B may go to 10 department A and say I would think that Jane Doe 11 would work well in our department, we would like 12 to move her, and they would talk to each other, 13 right? 14 A. Uh-huh. 15 Q. You have to say yes or no. 16 A. Yes, I'm sorry. 17 Q. And then if it was okay with 18 Jane Doe, you would get involved and talk to her 19 about whether or not she wanted to move, for 20 instance? 21 A. For example, yes. 22 Q. And then help with the 23 transition between the departments? 24 A. Precisely, yes. Page 54 1 Q. Is there a policy to your 2 knowledge at Lilly where individuals would be 3 given the opportunity to switch departments on a 4 regular basis, like, say, every two years or so, 5 something along those lines? 6 A. Not a policy that I'm aware of. 7 Q. If an employee did not want to 8 be switched from a department, would that be 9 taken into consideration? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Would the person be given the 12 option not to switch departments? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Have you ever run across 15 something like that where somebody didn't want to 16 switch departments? 17 A. Sure, yes. 18 Q. They were allowed to stay where 19 they originally were? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Would there have been any 22 ramifications to that employee if they did not 23 want to switch departments? 24 MR. MYERS: What do you mean by Page 55 1 ramifications, you mean negative ramifications? 2 MS. ZETTLER: Right. 3 A. No, not that I'm aware of. 4 Q. Okay. What's a CC check, have 5 you ever heard of a CC check? 6 A. Uh-huh, I know what that means 7 to me. 8 Q. What does it mean? 9 A. Contingent compensation. 10 Q. Is that a bonus type thing? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Is it a performance-based 13 bonus? 14 A. My definition would be it's a 15 corporate performance-based bonus. 16 Q. Something along like profit 17 sharing type of thing? 18 A. Yes, I guess one could look at 19 it that way. 20 Q. You seemed a little hesitant. 21 A. I don't know what -- there are 22 very specific meanings to people when they start 23 using certain terms, so I want to be careful that 24 I don't mislead you. Page 56 1 Q. Okay. You say corporate 2 performance-based, what do you mean? 3 A. It's based on a metrics of 4 sales and earnings, corporate sales and earnings. 5 Q. Is there a variable involved 6 with the check related to your position within 7 the company? 8 A. No. 9 Q. So it's a percentage type of 10 thing across the board? 11 A. Yes. 12 MS. ZETTLER: Let's take a break. 13 (A SHORT RECESS WAS TAKEN.) 14 Q. Do you know where Doctor Bouchy 15 worked prior to going to the German affiliate? 16 A. No, I don't. 17 Q. Do you know whether he went to 18 another affiliate before he left Lilly or did he 19 leave after being medical director -- or general 20 manager? 21 A. From that role, he left Lilly. 22 Q. So he quit while he was general 23 manager? 24 A. Yes. Page 57 1 Q. Did he quit or was he asked to 2 leave? 3 A. He quit. 4 Q. All right. I believe we were 5 up to Spring of '88 through May of '92 when you 6 were the director of European personnel in 7 London; correct? 8 MR. MYERS: Hadn't quite gotten there, 9 but that would have been the next step. 10 Q. Right. When you say you were 11 director of European personnel, was that all of 12 Europe? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And what were your 15 responsibilities as director of European 16 personnel? 17 A. To coordinate the human 18 resource activities in Europe, to interface with 19 the various HR directors of the various 20 affiliates. 21 Q. Within Europe. 22 A. Within Europe, uh-huh. 23 Q. When you say HR, you mean -- 24 A. Human resources, yes. Page 58 1 Q. How many affiliates were in 2 Europe at the time you were director of European 3 personnel? 4 A. Do you want me to kind of go 5 through them by name? 6 Q. You can start with giving me an 7 approximate number, if you will. If it helps to 8 go through them by name, that's fine. 9 A. I will go with what I know to 10 be the legal structure because there are some 11 countries that were grouped into an affiliate. 12 Q. Okay. 13 A. You had for example the Nordic 14 area would count as one, but it was actually the 15 four countries. So the Nordic area, the Ben-Lux. 16 Ben-Lux, those are the Netherlands, Luxemburg. 17 And then eastern European operations out of 18 Vienna, middle eastern operations out of Geneva. 19 Q. When you say middle eastern, 20 you mean middle eastern Europe? 21 A. No, middle east. 22 Q. Out of Vienna, I'm sorry? 23 A. Out of Geneva. And then what 24 I'll call or refer to as the major affiliates, Page 59 1 which would be four. 2 Q. Okay. And what were those 3 affiliates? 4 A. Germany, France, United Kingdom 5 and Italy. 6 Q. There was one affiliate that 7 was responsible for the Nordic area? 8 A. The Nordic area was 9 consolidated out of Copenhagen, out of Denmark, 10 and it was just called the Nordic area, and that 11 was Denmark, Finland, Sweden and Norway. 12 Q. Just so I'm not confused here. 13 The Copenhagen affiliate was responsible for all 14 of these countries or were there also affiliates 15 in each of these countries? 16 A. Each country was a legal entity 17 within that country. For example, Norway, 18 Finland, Sweden, Denmark, they were managed as a 19 coordinated unit in our thinking out of one 20 office, Copenhagen. 21 Q. Would there be HR directors in 22 each of those countries or would there be one in 23 Copenhagen? 24 A. One in Copenhagen. Page 60 1 Q. Can you give me an idea of what 2 the structure of the subaffiliates, for lack of a 3 better phrase, what's the corporate structure in 4 the office in Denmark, for instance? 5 A. Denmark would have been -- now 6 as it relates to the four, to the area, or 7 specifically for the country Denmark? 8 Q. Specifically for the country of 9 Denmark. Let me ask it this way: What was the 10 function of the office in Denmark? 11 A. Could we choose Finland as an 12 example? The reason I'm doing that is because 13 Copenhagen is in Denmark, I don't want to confuse 14 the centralized versus the country. So if we 15 look at a country outside of Copenhagen, it would 16 be comprised of a country manager who had 17 primarily sales and marketing responsibility. So 18 it was a sales and marketing office by and large. 19 Q. Okay. Was that generally true 20 for these other countries, Finland, Sweden, 21 Norway? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. In the Copenhagen office, was 24 there a medical director? Page 61 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And the research was done or at 3 least coordinated out of that office? 4 A. Precisely. 5 Q. Would that be the same for 6 Ben-Lux? 7 A. Not exactly, in that Ben-Lux, 8 while managed as a unit, had, because of the size 9 of both Holland and Belgium, had unique staffs in 10 each of those countries. 11 Q. When you say unique staffs, you 12 mean their own medical directors? 13 A. Exactly, there was a medical 14 director in Holland and a medical director in 15 Belgium. 16 Q. Where was the main affiliate? 17 A. In Brussels. 18 Q. Were there also medical 19 directors at Brussels? 20 A. There was a medical director in 21 Belgium, located in Brussels. 22 Q. All right. You're going to see 23 how little I know about geography. There were 24 three countries in the Ben-Lux group or two? Page 62 1 A. Three, three geographic, yes, 2 three countries, Belgium, Holland and Luxemburg. 3 Q. Now I don't feel so bad. 4 A. I tell you, yes. 5 Q. Did each of the offices at 6 Belgium, Luxemburg and Holland have medical 7 directors and coordinate research out of those 8 offices? 9 A. Could I clarify a comment here? 10 Q. Sure. 11 A. Luxemburg, we did not have any 12 unit in Luxemburg, okay. It was while the 13 Ben-Lux, those three countries were coordinated 14 out of Belgium, out of Brussels. So there were 15 two medical units, one in Holland, and one in 16 Belgium. 17 Q. Would the medical units in a 18 given country be responsible for getting a 19 project registered in that particular country? 20 A. Yes, to the best of my 21 knowledge, yes. 22 Q. Are you doing any work with any 23 of the European affiliates at this time? 24 A. When you say work, help me with Page 63 1 work. 2 Q. Do any of your responsibilities 3 in your present position -- I know I'm kind of 4 getting off track a little bit, but do they 5 involve any of the European affiliates? 6 A. From an administrative 7 perspective, yes. 8 Q. Eastern European operations, 9 where is that based out of? 10 A. It has been based out of 11 Vienna. 12 Q. Is that true today? 13 A. No. To my knowledge, they've 14 just undergone a move or they're in the 15 transition of moving that office to Geneva. 16 Q. Why is that, do you know? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Those countries that do have 19 medical departments -- is that fair to use that 20 phrase, medical department? 21 A. Yes, it's one way, medical 22 component, medical department, sure, medical 23 division. 24 Q. Okay. Can you give me an idea Page 64 1 of a typical structure of one of those countries? 2 You know, we talked earlier, I believe it was, 3 Finland had a person who was a company manager 4 who had sales and marketing responsibilities, but 5 there was no medical department in Finland; 6 correct? 7 A. Finland would have had in 8 Finland a couple of people, for example, and I 9 don't remember, it would vary -- and again, the 10 Nordic area is different than the larger 11 countries. It would have had a couple of people 12 there responsible for regulations, regulatory 13 interface, that sort of thing, in that country. 14 They were directed out of the central medical 15 unit in Copenhagen. 16 Q. Okay. So they may physically 17 have people with responsibilities for regulatory 18 compliance in Finland, but they would take 19 direction from Copenhagen? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And is that true across the 22 board with the local offices, so to speak? 23 A. Is what true? 24 Q. That they would have people who Page 65 1 would be involved in regulatory, for instance, 2 but they would be responsible to people in the 3 main office for that area? 4 A. In the large countries, the 5 regulatory people would be responsible to the 6 medical director of that country. So it's a 7 critical mass thing is why I want to be sure I 8 don't mislead you, where we have smaller units, 9 then you have a coordinated activity and that 10 would report up through that. But in the larger 11 units, then you have a critical mass of a medical 12 division, if you will, would be led by the 13 medical director. 14 Q. Okay. To your knowledge, are 15 there any corporate charts that charts the 16 corporate hierarchy involving the various 17 European -- or outside of U.S. affiliates? 18 A. Oh, there were a variety -- if 19 I understand your question is organizational 20 charts? 21 Q. Right. 22 A. Each affiliate generally has 23 their version of an organizational chart, yes. 24 Q. And would those organizational Page 66 1 charts reflect the chain of command, so to speak, 2 up to the main affiliate? Like, for instance, 3 Copenhagen, would the Finland office have a chart 4 that would reflect that if somebody eventually 5 has to report to Copenhagen? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. With these larger affiliates 8 like the Copenhagen affiliate, would somebody 9 then be responsible directly to Indianapolis? 10 MR. MYERS: Before he answers, let me 11 object to the form. I think when he said larger, 12 that Copenhagen might not have been -- when he 13 was talking larger countries before he named, I 14 think four countries, your terminology may be 15 getting skewed a little bit. 16 Q. I'm trying to get an idea of 17 the hierarchy, the chain of command. Eventually 18 somebody is going to have to report back to 19 Indianapolis about what's going on overseas, 20 right? 21 A. That's correct. 22 Q. They don't all work as separate 23 entities in and of themselves completely, do 24 they? Page 67 1 A. That's correct, yes. 2 Q. Yes, they do or yes, they 3 don't? 4 A. No, they do not act 5 independent, yes. It's a combination of 6 coordinated local and global activity. 7 Q. What's the main affiliate for 8 the UK, is that Erl Wood? 9 A. No, the main affiliate for the 10 UK is in Basingstoke. 11 Q. How about Germany? 12 A. Germany is in Bad Homburg. 13 Q. How about France? 14 A. Saint Cloud. 15 Q. How about Italy? 16 A. In Florence. 17 Q. And for instance Bad Homburg 18 would have control over all the smaller offices 19 all over Germany? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. So let's take that as an 22 example. So the smaller offices in Germany would 23 be responsible to Bad Homburg in some form or 24 another, in other words they would report to Bad Page 68 1 Homburg, they would take direction from Bad 2 Homburg? 3 A. Yes. When you refer to smaller 4 offices, could you give me an example what you 5 mean by that? 6 Q. Are there other offices in 7 Germany that are not the Bad Homburg office? 8 A. Not to my knowledge. Other 9 than Giessen as a manufacturing site, which was 10 unique, it was a stand-alone manufacturing and 11 distribution site reported in through Bad 12 Homburg. 13 Q. Let's take the UK instead, 14 okay. Erl Wood is a separate entity from 15 Basingstoke, right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And it's another office, it's 18 another affiliate? 19 A. No, it's a research laboratory, 20 yes, unrelated to the UK operations. 21 Q. When you say unrelated to the 22 UK operations -- 23 A. In other words it doesn't 24 report up through that structure. Page 69 1 Q. It does not, okay. 2 A. No. 3 Q. Are there other offices in the 4 UK that report to Basingstoke? 5 A. Yes. The DISTA at Liverpool 6 operation, manufacturing operation. 7 Q. Do you know how many -- how 8 many facilities does Lilly have in the UK, to 9 your knowledge? 10 A. Four. 11 Q. The DISTA facility in -- 12 A. DISTA in Liverpool, 13 Basingstoke, Erl Wood, and our London office. 14 Q. All of those offices have 15 different functions? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. DISTA in Liverpool is 18 manufacturing? 19 A. Is a manufacturing arm, 20 facility of the UK affiliate. So there's a 21 direct link between those two units. 22 Q. Okay. And the London office 23 does what? 24 A. The London office was or is Page 70 1 responsible for the coordination of European 2 activities. 3 Q. Including UK? 4 A. Including UK, which would be 5 one of those affiliates. 6 Q. So Basingstoke would report to 7 London? 8 A. Basingstoke would report to 9 London. 10 Q. And Erl Wood is a research 11 facility? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Does London do any research 14 directly out of that office? 15 A. No. 16 Q. It's more of an administrative 17 office? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Then London would report to 20 Indianapolis? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Everything eventually comes 23 back to Indianapolis? 24 A. Everything, yes. Page 71 1 Q. With regards to product 2 registrations in other companies, who makes the 3 ultimate decisions on how that should be handled, 4 would that come out of Indianapolis? 5 A. In other companies? 6 Q. Other countries. 7 A. Again, to the best of my 8 knowledge, because I have not been directly 9 involved with that, it's a collaborative effort 10 of the local and corporate. 11 Q. When you say corporate, you 12 mean Indianapolis? 13 A. Indianapolis, I'm sorry. 14 Q. I'm trying to make it clear for 15 the record. So say there was a disagreement 16 between the local office and Indianapolis on how 17 a certain matter should be handled, who would 18 have the final say? 19 MR. MYERS: Are you talking about a 20 registration matter? 21 MS. ZETTLER: Right. 22 A. That's a difficult one to 23 answer because there are so many specifics that 24 one would have to define to be able to answer Page 72 1 that, quite frankly. If it's really a local 2 issue, then the local expertise would obviously 3 have a value. 4 Q. Let me ask it this way: Who 5 decides whether or not to try to have a product 6 approved for marketing in a particular country, 7 and I don't mean specifically, does that decision 8 come out of Indianapolis? 9 A. Again, to the best of my 10 knowledge, it's really a collaborative kind of -- 11 it's part of a planning process where individuals 12 would come together in a room like this and 13 really talk about the potential. 14 Q. Like is it feasible to have 15 this particular product marketed in, say, 16 Belgium? 17 A. Is there a need, yes. 18 Q. Is there somebody in 19 Indianapolis who was responsible for being, for 20 lack of a better phrase, a point man with Europe? 21 A. Is or was or -- 22 Q. Is there somebody now who is 23 responsible, at least on an initial level, to 24 keep in contact with Europe or somebody who Page 73 1 Europe has to report to? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Who would that be? 4 A. In what areas are you referring 5 to? 6 Q. Let's start with regulatory. 7 A. In regulatory, that would come 8 through Erl Wood. 9 Q. Okay. 10 A. Which is responsible for 11 Europe. Back here then to Indianapolis. 12 Q. What department in 13 Indianapolis? 14 A. The regulatory would come 15 through -- and again, depending on what aspect of 16 regulatory, would come through Mike Hanson. 17 Q. Does Mr. Hanson have 18 responsibility for product registration in other 19 countries? 20 A. He would be a part of 21 responsible for that, that's again a 22 collaborative effort. 23 Q. Do you have any connection with 24 the European facilities in your responsibilities? Page 74 1 A. And by connection -- 2 Q. Any responsibilities whatsoever 3 that would affect Europe or vice versa, European 4 activities that would affect your job? 5 A. Yes, in the sense that I'm 6 responsible administratively to make sure that we 7 have resources available to do what we need to 8 do. And so I would support them in that regard. 9 Q. Are you familiar with the OUS 10 data gathering project with regards to 11 Fluoxetine? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Are you familiar with the fact 14 that personnel from Indianapolis was sent over to 15 the various affiliates -- or various affiliates 16 in Europe to review clinical report forms on 17 clinical trials run on Fluoxetine? 18 A. Not -- I mean if -- no, not 19 really, I wasn't involved. I'm aware of, yes, I 20 am aware that there was some activity, but more 21 than that, I'm not really. 22 Q. Okay. To your knowledge was 23 there a -- has an attempt to register Fluoxetine 24 Hydrochloride in a country ever been turned down Page 75 1 or denied? 2 A. No, not to my knowledge. 3 Q. Was there ever a problem with 4 getting Fluoxetine registered in any particular 5 country? 6 MR. MYERS: Let me object to the form. 7 What do you mean by problem? 8 MS. ZETTLER: It was difficult, they 9 were difficult to do, there were questions that 10 the regulatory agencies had that had to be 11 answered. 12 MR. MYERS: Well, I'm objecting to the 13 form only because I think it's awfully broad, and 14 I don't suspect that there's any regulatory 15 agency that hasn't asked a question about some 16 drug, and certainly that could be a problem in 17 answering the question. But go ahead and answer 18 it if you can. 19 A. Well, yes, my answer would be 20 I'm really not that involved in that aspect, so I 21 couldn't really give you a very clear answer. 22 Q. Okay. Have you been directly 23 involved with an attempt by Lilly to get 24 Fluoxetine registered in any country? Page 76 1 A. Have I been involved, no. 2 Q. Who at Lilly, to your 3 knowledge, had responsibilities for Germany with 4 regards to project -- product registration? And 5 when I mean at Lilly, in Indianapolis. 6 A. It would depend of course over 7 time in different individuals. The individual 8 that would come to my mind, is that your 9 question? 10 Q. Sure. 11 A. During the time that I was in 12 London, for example, Allen Weinstein. 13 Q. Is there anybody else that 14 either has or had that responsibility with 15 regards to product registration in Germany? 16 A. Outside of Germany, you're -- 17 Q. Right, Indianapolis. 18 A. Not that I would have been 19 aware of. There's going to be a host of support 20 people, of course, that would support whatever 21 data, et cetera, that they would need, but yes, 22 Allen would be the point person. 23 Q. Is he still the point person 24 for Germany, to your knowledge? Page 77 1 MR. MYERS: Registration-wise? 2 MS. ZETTLER: Right. 3 A. No. 4 Q. Do you know who is now? 5 A. Mike Hanson. 6 Q. When did Mr. Hanson take over 7 that responsibility? 8 A. Approximately March of this 9 year, March, April, somewhere in that time frame. 10 Q. Was Mr. Weinstein -- is it 11 Doctor Weinstein? 12 A. Doctor Weinstein. 13 Q. Is he still at Lilly? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Do you know where he is now? 16 A. Here in Indianapolis. 17 Q. Do you know what department? 18 A. Medical. 19 Q. What are his responsibilities 20 in medical? 21 A. His responsibilities are for -- 22 let me back into it. If you take out the United 23 States, if you take out Europe, then he has the 24 rest of the world. Page 78 1 Q. Okay. Does he have any 2 responsibilities in the U.S. or Europe at this 3 time? 4 A. Again, I want to define 5 responsibilities, I mean he's -- 6 Q. What does he do -- let me ask 7 it this way: What does he do with regards to the 8 rest of the world territory, what are his 9 responsibilities? 10 A. To serve as a link between 11 corporate activities and local activities. 12 Q. And again, when you say 13 corporate activities, you mean Indianapolis; 14 correct? 15 A. Indianapolis based, yes. 16 Q. And local activities being 17 based in the various countries? 18 A. Precisely. 19 Q. Okay. How about Austria, who 20 is the regulatory point man for Austria, or point 21 person? 22 MR. MYERS: In Indianapolis? 23 MS. ZETTLER: Right. 24 A. In Indianapolis would be again, Page 79 1 Mike Hanson. 2 Q. Is he responsible for Europe 3 now? 4 A. Yes, yes, in Indianapolis. 5 Q. Are you familiar with Doctor 6 Leigh Thompson? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Who is Doctor Thompson? 9 A. Well, when you say who, you 10 mean what's his current role? 11 Q. Right. 12 A. He's currently chief scientific 13 officer, I believe is his title, of Eli Lilly. 14 Q. When did he become chief 15 scientific officer? 16 A. Oh, boy. I think it would have 17 been near the first of the year, this year. It 18 would have been the early part of this year, I 19 believe. 20 Q. Prior to that, what was his 21 title, if you know? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Do you know what his 24 responsibilities were prior to his becoming an Page 80 1 officer? 2 A. I can give you my definition of 3 officer. 4 Q. That's okay. Let me ask you 5 this: Do you know what his responsibilities were 6 prior to becoming chief scientific officer? 7 A. To the the best of my 8 knowledge, he was responsible for aspects of 9 discovery in medical. 10 Q. When you say aspects of 11 discovery, what do you mean? 12 A. I'm just defining it for 13 discovery, research activities. 14 Q. So research and testing? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And medical, what do you mean 17 when you say medical? 18 A. The medical division. 19 Q. Okay. Who does he report to 20 now, if you know? 21 A. I believe he reports to the 22 chairman, to Randy Tobias. 23 Q. And who would he have reported 24 to prior to becoming chief scientific officer? Page 81 1 A. To Doctor Perelman. 2 Q. Is Doctor Perelman still with 3 Lilly? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. So is Doctor Thompson now on 6 the same level as Doctor Perelman at this time? 7 A. What do you mean when you say 8 level? 9 Q. He doesn't report to Doctor 10 Perelman now, does he? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Who would Doctor Perelman 13 report to? 14 A. To Randy Tobias. 15 Q. So they're basically on the 16 same level at this point as far as the corporate 17 food chain? 18 A. I don't know how to respond to 19 that, I don't know. They're both reporting to 20 Randy Tobias, that I know. I'm pretty certain 21 that Leigh is reporting to him. 22 Q. In your position as director of 23 European personnel, you were responsible for 24 staffing the various offices to a certain extent, Page 82 1 were you not? 2 A. For coordinating. 3 Q. Like if somebody decided that 4 they needed more personnel in a particular 5 office, they would contact you and say we need to 6 hire a couple more secretaries or whatever? 7 A. Yes. For example, we would 8 coordinate the overall planning process, but I 9 did not get involved directly in that. 10 Q. Okay. Was your position as 11 director of European personnel, as far as the 12 hands-on portion, be dealing with employees 13 similar to your position at Lilly where you would 14 get involved with hiring the professionals and 15 the mid-career type people? 16 A. Yes, yes. 17 Q. Were you involved with hiring 18 the medical directors for any of the affiliates 19 in Europe when you were director of European 20 personnel? 21 A. In a facilitative role. By 22 that I mean not directly involved in any medical 23 director recruitment. But again, from a 24 coordinating position, would be involved from a Page 83 1 process perspective, how it fits into the overall 2 structure of your -- and what we're trying to 3 achieve and that sort of thing. 4 Q. Say Doctor Bouchy leaves as 5 general manager of Germany, the German affiliate, 6 okay, obviously you would be involved to some 7 extent with replacing him; correct? 8 A. To some extent, yes. 9 Q. Can you give me a little more 10 idea of what your particular involvement would 11 have been in that function, replacing Doctor 12 Bouchy? 13 A. Sure. I would have worked with 14 the German affiliate in the transition, for 15 example, ensuring that there's an overlap between 16 someone leaving and someone coming in, would 17 serve as an interface with Indianapolis, and 18 people here, in terms of candidates. And, of 19 course, in a position of that nature, people here 20 are going to have clearly in mind possible 21 candidates. So they would get our inputs to that 22 there. 23 Q. When you were director of 24 European personnel, was it your general Page 84 1 experience that people were promoted to that type 2 of position from within as opposed to Lilly going 3 outside to hire for that position? 4 A. For what position? 5 Q. General manager of an 6 affiliate. 7 A. Generally it would be fair to 8 say it's from within. 9 Q. How about medical directors of 10 various affiliates, would that be usually 11 somebody who was promoted from within or somebody 12 who was hired from outside? 13 A. It would be a combination, it 14 would be a combination. We would look at the 15 qualifications, and if the qualifications, 16 because of our belief and movement from within, 17 if they existed, of course, then we would want to 18 work with that, that's an ideal situation for us. 19 Q. So if someone was available at 20 Lilly, you would put them in that position, and 21 if nobody else was available you would seek 22 somebody from outside? 23 A. Yes, qualifications would be 24 the predominant factor there. Page 85 1 Q. From May of 1992 to the 2 present, you've been the executive director or an 3 executive director of Lilly research labs; is 4 that correct? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Are you the executive director 7 or are there more than one executive directors? 8 A. There's more than one, yes. 9 Q. How many executive directors at 10 Lilly research labs are there today? 11 A. I don't know, I really don't. 12 Q. Is it broken down by 13 department? 14 A. It would be by unit. 15 Q. Okay. Whether it says Lilly 16 research labs or when you say Lilly research 17 labs, would that encompass various aspects, like 18 medical, regulatory, things of that nature? 19 A. No, you would define 20 specifically the area of responsibility. So 21 that's a generic title. 22 Q. But I mean Lilly research labs 23 in and of itself. 24 A. Uh-huh. Page 86 1 Q. You say it's a generic title -- 2 A. That's a generic title, and 3 then you're responsible for a specific area. 4 Q. So it would be Lilly research 5 labs responsible for something? 6 A. Right. In my particular case, 7 medical administration. 8 Q. Okay. Now just so I'm not 9 confused, I'm taking out the executive director 10 portion of that, okay. So it's still Lilly 11 research labs responsible for whatever? 12 A. Medical administration, right. 13 Q. And you are an executive 14 director within that division? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Okay. What unit are you 17 working in? 18 A. Medical. 19 Q. Medical, all right. Now, under 20 the purview of medical, what falls under that, I 21 mean is there regulatory, is there -- 22 A. In terms of my responsibility? 23 Q. Right. 24 A. It's the support organization Page 87 1 for the medical function. By the support, it 2 would include administrative support, systems -- 3 well, not -- systems doesn't report directly to 4 me, but that would be an example of 5 administrative support, CRAs, secretaries -- 6 Q. Statisticians? 7 A. Statisticians. 8 Q. Medical writers? 9 A. Medical writers. 10 Q. Regulatory personnel? 11 A. No, not regulatory. 12 Q. Clinical research physicians? 13 A. No. 14 Q. How about the CIRs or CRCs? 15 A. CRCs, yes. So those units 16 which support the direction of trial activity. 17 Q. Why is it that the clinical 18 research physicians don't fall under your 19 direction, for lack of a better term? 20 A. Well, there's two good reasons. 21 One, and the best one is, that I'm not qualified 22 for that. Secondly is our structure is divided 23 between the technical role itself, and then the 24 support organization and the management of the Page 88 1 administration of that, which it's heavily 2 administratively oriented. 3 Q. Do you have a counterpart on 4 the technical side? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Who is your counterpart? 7 A. There would be -- there's more 8 than -- it's the division directors. 9 Q. Your counterpart, so to speak, 10 on the technical side, is broken down into -- 11 there's more than one counterpart? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Who are your counterparts on 14 the technical side now? 15 A. By name? 16 Q. Right. 17 A. There would be Gary Tollefson, 18 Doctor Tollefson, Doctor Dies, D-I-E-S, Doctor 19 Therrase, T-H-E-R-R-A-S-E, Doctor Keohane, 20 K-E-O-H-A-N-E, Doctor Pedersen, P-E-D-E-R-S-E-N, 21 and who am I leaving out, Tollefson, did I say -- 22 Doctor Alanis, A-L-A-N-I-S. 23 Q. What was his first name? 24 A. Alphonso Alanis. Page 89 1 Q. Is there anybody else on your 2 side on your level? 3 A. There's a counterpart, Dick 4 Reidenbach, who has the systems organization. 5 Q. So it's you and Mr. Reidenbach 6 and these six other individuals? 7 A. Then there's also Doctor 8 Talbott, who has the regulatory arm. 9 Q. Anybody else? 10 A. No. 11 Q. When did Doctor Tollefson come 12 on board at Lilly, if you know? 13 A. It was during the time I was 14 not here, so I really don't know. 15 Q. While you were in London? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. How about Doctor Dies? 18 A. Oh, again, I don't know. Fred 19 has been around for a number of years, I can only 20 guess, ten or twelve years. 21 Q. Doctor Therrase? 22 A. Yes, Therrase. 23 Q. How about Doctor Therrase? 24 A. I think he joined Lilly in '87, Page 90 1 I believe. 2 Q. How about Doctor Keohane? 3 A. I don't know, he's from the UK. 4 Q. Was he transferred from the UK 5 to Indianapolis? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Do you know what he did in the 8 UK? 9 A. He was the affiliate medical 10 director. 11 Q. Basingstoke? 12 A. In Basingstoke, uh-huh. 13 Q. How about Doctor Pedersen? 14 A. Moved here from Copenhagen 15 where he was the medical director for that area, 16 and I don't know how long he's been with Lilly. 17 Q. Okay. Was he here when you got 18 back from London? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Was he here before you left for 21 London? 22 A. He came about the same time 23 that I returned from London, yes, it was about 24 the same time. Page 91 1 Q. How about Doctor Alanis? 2 A. I don't know how long he's been 3 with Lilly, he was in Spain before he came here. 4 Q. Okay. To your knowledge, have 5 any of these gentlemen -- these are all men, 6 right? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Have any of these gentlemen 9 performed clinical trials on behalf of Lilly 10 before being officially employed by Lilly? 11 A. No knowledge of that. 12 Q. To your knowledge have any of 13 these gentlemen worked for the FDA prior to being 14 employed by Lilly? 15 A. No -- again, no knowledge that 16 I have. I'm trying to think quickly through the 17 six. I don't believe so. 18 Q. How about any other regulatory 19 authority outside of the United States, like, for 20 instance, the regulatory authority in Copenhagen, 21 did Doctor Pedersen work for them? 22 A. I don't know that. 23 Q. Are you aware of any present 24 Lilly employees who have worked -- previously Page 92 1 worked for the FDA or any other counterpart, FDA 2 counterpart in any other country? 3 A. The only one that I think had a 4 prior experience was Max Talbott, and I'm not 5 certain of that, but I'm pretty certain that he 6 worked at the FDA. 7 Q. How about Doctor Leigh 8 Thompson? 9 A. I don't think so, but I don't 10 know that either. 11 Q. Okay. To your knowledge, had 12 Doctor Thompson worked for any other governmental 13 agency? 14 A. No, I don't believe so. 15 Q. Have you ever heard of a 16 Dorothy Dobbs? 17 A. Dorothy Dobbs. The name rings 18 a bell, so I would have to say yes, but it stops 19 there. 20 Q. Have you ever worked with 21 Doctor Dobbs to your knowledge? 22 A. Oh, if it's a Doctor, then I 23 probably don't know. The name rings a bell 24 somewhere, but no, I'm sorry, I don't. Page 93 1 Q. Who were the executive 2 directors prior to Doctors Tollefson, Dies, 3 Therrase, Keohane, Pedersen and Alanis, who did 4 these people replace, to your knowledge? 5 A. Oh, boy. I really -- I could 6 just give you gobbledy-gook, probably. I don't 7 know who was in those roles right before they -- 8 because I was out -- quite frankly, I was there 9 and was not connected in here that much at all, 10 so I really don't know. I believe that Therrase 11 replaced Tim Franson. Beyond that, I don't -- 12 Q. How about Doctor Wernicke, was 13 he an executive director on the technical side of 14 the medical division? 15 A. On the technical side, I don't 16 know what his level would have been. He was a 17 physician here with Lilly, but I can't relate to 18 the level that he was at. 19 Q. What's the difference between 20 an executive director on the technical side of 21 the medical division and a clinical research 22 physician, if you know? 23 A. Well, one can get trapped in 24 titles. The difference is -- you're asking about Page 94 1 the difference between a research physician as a 2 generic title versus executive director? 3 Q. Right. 4 A. The executive director has the 5 responsibility for a particular therapeutic area, 6 division, and various research physicians will 7 report to that person. 8 Q. Do you know what the difference 9 is between a clinical monitor and a clinical 10 research physician? 11 A. Again, it would depend on the 12 individuals and how they use those terms, but 13 they're interchangeable to many people. 14 Q. So you can have a clinical 15 research physician that's also a clinical 16 monitor? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Are you familiar with the 19 various divisions that Doctors Tollefson, Dies, 20 Therrase, Keohane, Pedersen and Alanis worked 21 with? You said that there were different 22 responsibilities, product responsibilities. 23 A. Different product 24 responsibilities. Page 95 1 Q. Do you know what product Doctor 2 Tollefson is responsible for? 3 A. Primarily CNS products, 4 compounds in the CNS field. 5 Q. How about Doctor Dies? 6 A. He's responsible for 7 psychopharmacology, I guess would be a way -- 8 it's a part of the CNS area. 9 Q. How about Doctor Therrase? 10 A. Primarily anti-infectives. 11 Q. Doctor Keohane? 12 A. Primarily diabetology. That 13 would be my reference. These are not -- I mean 14 not everything that he works on would be 15 precisely in that area. 16 Q. How about Doctor Pedersen? 17 A. Oncology. 18 Q. And Doctor Alanis? 19 A. General medicine. 20 Q. To your knowledge has Doctor 21 Therrase, Doctor Keohane, Doctor Pedersen or 22 Doctor Alanis ever had responsibilities related 23 to Fluoxetine, in their positions as executive 24 director? Page 96 1 A. Here, no, not to my knowledge. 2 Q. How about in their former 3 position with the various affiliates? 4 A. Depending upon a point in time, 5 for example, depending on where Spain would have 6 been with Fluoxetine when Doctor Alanis was there 7 as a medical director, he would be responsible. 8 Q. As medical director, let's use 9 him as an example of Spain, would he be 10 responsible for any product that was being 11 developed, researched, marketed, whatever, in 12 Spain? 13 A. From a technical perspective, 14 yes. 15 Q. So it doesn't matter if it was 16 an antidepressant, an anti-oncolitic, a 17 diabetolic, it doesn't matter, whatever is being 18 dealt with in Spain he's got some responsibility 19 for? 20 A. He would have had -- again, 21 I'll use my word, oversight responsibility. He 22 would have had people under him as physicians who 23 would have been working specifically, but yes, he 24 would have been the overall person responsible. Page 97 1 Q. And his affiliate, at least 2 departmently, would have been broken down by 3 various type drugs? 4 A. Would have been assigned, 5 uh-huh. 6 Q. Doctor Wernicke? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Do you still don't have -- or 9 keep in contact with Doctor Wernicke? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Do you know when he left Lilly? 12 A. No. Again, I was in Europe 13 when he left, but I think it wasn't so long after 14 I was there, so I would have guessed '88, '89, 15 but again, I'm only guessing. 16 Q. Do you know why he left Lilly? 17 A. No. 18 Q. What was his position at Lilly 19 prior to his leaving, if you know? 20 A. Right prior to his leaving, I 21 could only -- I don't know, I could guess only, 22 but I know only when I was here. 23 Q. What did he do while you were 24 here? Page 98 1 A. He was a research physician. 2 Q. Do you know if he was a medical 3 monitor also? 4 A. I'm sorry? 5 Q. Do you know if he was a monitor 6 also? 7 A. Yes, in that regard, I use that 8 interchangeably. 9 Q. Do you know what drugs he had 10 responsibility for? 11 A. No, I really don't, not at that 12 time. 13 Q. How about Paul Stark, have you 14 ever heard that name? 15 A. The name, I've heard. I don't 16 know the individual or what role the individual 17 played. 18 Q. Have you ever dealt with Doctor 19 Stark? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Have you ever talked with 22 Doctor Wernicke since his leaving Lilly? 23 A. No. 24 Q. How about David Wheadon? Page 99 1 A. Uh-huh. 2 Q. Do you know David? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Is Doctor Wheadon still with 5 Lilly? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Do you know where he is now? 8 A. No, I don't. 9 Q. What did he do with Lilly prior 10 to leaving? 11 A. Again, prior to his leaving, I 12 was in Europe, so a research physician. 13 Q. Again, using that as a medical 14 monitor also? 15 A. Right. 16 Q. Is Tim Franson still with 17 Lilly? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Can you tell me what he does 20 now? 21 A. Yes, he's involved with health 22 economics. 23 Q. Do you know if he has any 24 responsibilities with Fluoxetine? Page 100 1 A. No, I don't know. 2 Q. Do you know if he ever had 3 responsibility with regards to Fluoxetine? 4 A. No. 5 Q. No, you don't know? 6 A. No, I don't know. 7 Q. Earlier you testified that 8 Doctor Tollefson, to your knowledge, has 9 responsibility over CNS compound, right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And now Doctor Dies has 12 responsibility to the best of your knowledge over 13 psychopharmacological compounds, right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Do you know under which of 16 these divisions or which of those departments 17 Fluoxetine falls under? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Which one? 20 A. Under Tollefson. 21 Q. To your knowledge does Doctor 22 Dies have any responsibility for Fluoxetine? 23 A. Does he? 24 Q. Uh-huh. Page 101 1 A. To my knowledge, no. 2 Q. To your knowledge has he ever 3 had any responsibilities with Fluoxetine? 4 A. Not to my knowledge. 5 Q. You said generally that your 6 responsibilities as executive director of the 7 administrative aspects of Lilly research labs, 8 that you direct administratively over the support 9 organization including the CRAs, secretaries, to 10 some extent systems, CRCs, et cetera; correct? 11 A. Correct. 12 Q. Can you give me a more detailed 13 idea of what those responsibilities entail? 14 A. Sure. I'll come at it in a 15 broader sense, and if you want more, you 16 obviously will come back for it. 17 Q. Sure. 18 A. It centers primarily around the 19 planning process, and by planning I'm talking 20 about resource planning, because we're covering 21 the various therapeutic areas, so that we're 22 looking at plans over a one to three year period 23 of what are the expectations to be coming along 24 so we can have the resources available to support Page 102 1 that therapeutic thrust. 2 Q. So you work with whoever is 3 responsible for that particular compound within 4 the hierarchy, developing plans for what you want 5 to accomplish and what types of resources you're 6 going to need to get the goal accomplished? 7 A. You want to restate that? 8 Q. I'm trying to get an idea -- my 9 understanding from what you said, and I could be 10 completely wrong, so that's why I'm asking it 11 again, is that you work with the department or 12 the division that's responsible for, say -- let's 13 use Fluoxetine -- 14 A. Sure. 15 Q. -- as an example, okay. And 16 say somebody comes to you and says Greg, we want -- 17 we're shooting to have the NDA approved by the 18 FDA by December of 1987, and this is like three 19 or four years earlier, okay. And this is -- we 20 want to know what we're going to need to be able 21 to get there, this is what we want to do to 22 accomplish that goal, and your function is then 23 to make sure there's enough people and other 24 resources to accomplish that goal? Page 103 1 A. Yes. The therapeutic division 2 would design the program, if you will, and then 3 our role is to match up with that design with the 4 resources to implement it. 5 Q. Okay. Do you recall working on 6 a specific plan with Fluoxetine at any time? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Who was in your position prior 9 to May of 1992? 10 A. An individual by the name of 11 Doctor Merle Amundson. 12 Q. How long did Doctor Amundson 13 hold that position, to your knowledge? 14 A. To my knowledge, and I'm going 15 to be approximate, two years, I believe. 16 Q. And his responsibilities were 17 essentially the same as your responsibilities 18 when you took over that position? 19 A. I think, essentially. 20 Q. In a general sense? 21 A. Yes, in a general sense, 22 uh-huh, the administrative support. 23 Q. Do you have any knowledge of a 24 particular project that was worked on by Doctor Page 104 1 Amundson as far as the support aspects of it 2 related to Fluoxetine? 3 A. No, not really, I mean not that 4 I'm aware of. 5 Q. When you were in London, who 6 did you report to at Lilly? 7 A. I reported to Gerhart Mayr. 8 Q. How about when you were 9 director of personnel at Lilly from the Spring of 10 '84 to the Spring of '88? 11 A. To Burt Curry. 12 Q. I'm sorry, Burt? 13 A. Burt Curry, C-U-R-R-Y. 14 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 2 WAS 15 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION AND 16 RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE.) 17 Q. Doctor, to your knowledge have 18 you ever been an executive director of medical 19 regulatory affairs at Lilly? 20 A. Executive director of medical 21 regulatory affairs, yes. 22 Q. Was that something that was 23 included in your position as executive director 24 of Lilly research labs? Page 105 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. What is the difference between 3 medical regulatory affairs and Doctor Talbott's 4 department? 5 A. The difference would have been 6 from an organizational. From a structural 7 perspective, I would have provided some 8 administrative support for Max's group. 9 Q. Can you take a look at Exhibit 10 2? 11 A. Sure. 12 Q. On the first page of Exhibit 2, 13 which purports to be corporate organizational 14 chart for medical regulatory affairs; correct? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Does this seem to be accurate 17 as far as you know as to the hierarchy that was 18 involved? 19 A. At any point in time? 20 Q. At least as of June or prior to 21 June 2nd, 1992. 22 A. Oh, okay. Looks like it would 23 have been, yes, that's the organization. 24 Q. Okay. At the top of the chart Page 106 1 under medical regulatory affairs it lists Doctor 2 Zerbe; correct? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. At that time did you report to 5 Doctor Zerbe? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And then you're listed right 8 under Doctor Zerbe; correct? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And under you is listed Doctor 11 Talbott? 12 A. Right. 13 Q. Did Doctor Talbott report to 14 you? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Why? 17 A. For administrative -- because 18 of the support nature of it, administratively he 19 reported to me. Technically -- any technical 20 issues would have been handled by Zerbe. 21 Q. Okay. And then under that, the 22 next level lists Michael Noone? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And Earlene Ashbrook; correct? Page 107 1 A. Correct. 2 Q. As well as regulatory affairs? 3 A. That's correct. 4 Q. So this indicates to you that 5 Max Talbott was the head of medical regulatory 6 affairs from the chart? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And he also had 9 responsibilities over Mister Noone's department? 10 A. Uh-huh. 11 Q. As well as -- you have to say 12 yes or no. 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. As well as Earlene Ashbrook's 15 department. 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. This doesn't -- this chart does 18 not say that your responsibility over Doctor 19 Talbott was solely administrative, does it not? 20 A. The question was? 21 Q. This chart does not reflect 22 that your sole, authority, so to speak, over 23 Doctor Talbott is related purely to 24 administrative, does it? I'm talking about the Page 108 1 first page. 2 A. No, I guess -- no. 3 Q. If you were just to look at 4 this page, you would think that you had 5 responsibilities over Doctor Talbott generally, 6 would you not? 7 A. Oh, yes, sure, sure, yes. 8 Q. On the second page, it seems 9 like a more detailed or at least it goes higher 10 up on the corporate food chain as far as what it 11 describes; correct? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. At the very top here, at least 14 on the Lilly research lab side, you have Doctor 15 Perelman as the president; correct? 16 A. Correct. 17 Q. And again, this is dated April 18 of 1992; correct? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And then under that, you have 21 Doctor Leigh Thompson; correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And under Doctor Thompson's 24 authority, comes your group that we talked about Page 109 1 earlier, Doctor Zerbe? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. As well as Doctor Reid, Doctor 4 Weinstein, Doctor Morton, Doctor Roffey and 5 Doctor Whitney; correct? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Over to the left it has Doctor 8 Emmick. Do you see that? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. What group is that? 11 A. If I'm not mistaken, it's the 12 drug development group. 13 Q. Okay. How about over to the 14 right-hand side, where it says Doctor Matricaria? 15 A. Mister Matricaria. 16 Q. I'm sorry, Mister Matricaria. 17 A. Uh-huh. 18 Q. What group is that? 19 A. That is the international 20 organization. 21 Q. Okay. 22 A. So the various general managers 23 would have reported in through him. 24 Q. So general managers at the Page 110 1 various affiliates, like, for instance, Doctor 2 Bouchy, when he was still at Lilly? 3 A. No, the European group reported 4 through Gerhart Mayr, who reported through 5 Matricaria. 6 Q. Doctor Mayr is not reported on 7 this chart, is he? 8 A. No. He would be under the 9 general managers grouping there. 10 Q. Okay. But Gerhart Mayr was in 11 Indianapolis; correct? 12 A. No, he's in London. 13 Q. He's in London. When you said 14 earlier that you reported to Gerhart Mayr, you 15 meant in London? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Did you have responsibilities 18 to report to anybody directly here at 19 Indianapolis while you were in London? 20 A. Yes, to the human resource 21 division here. 22 Q. Who was the head of the human 23 resource division at that time here? 24 A. Of our corporate? Page 111 1 Q. Right. 2 A. Steve Stitler, S-T-I-T-L-E-R. 3 Q. Okay. On the middle level here 4 on the second page, where it lists Doctor Reid, 5 Doctor Weinstein, Doctor Zerbe, et cetera, do you 6 see that? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Doctor Reid -- they're all 9 listed as -- except for Doctor Zerbe, they're 10 listed as vice presidents; correct? 11 A. I think Zerbe is also listed as 12 vice president. 13 Q. Oh, I'm sorry, you're right. 14 What was Doctor Reid's responsibility, can you 15 tell from the chart? 16 MR. MYERS: Do you want to know if he 17 knows or if he can tell from the chart? 18 MS. ZETTLER: Both. 19 Q. Can you tell from the chart 20 what Doctor Reid's responsibilities were? 21 A. What this chart tells me, and 22 based on what I know, is that he had 23 responsibility for these particular areas that 24 are shown underneath him. Page 112 1 Q. Who is Doctor Galloway? 2 A. Lilly research fellow, 3 diabetologist. 4 Q. Did Doctor Reid's group have 5 any responsibility, at least as of April of 1992, 6 with regards to Fluoxetine, if you know? 7 A. No, I would not know -- I mean 8 the answer is no, I don't believe he had any 9 responsibility. 10 Q. How about Doctor Weinstein's 11 group as of April of '92? 12 A. Again, the question is? 13 Q. To your knowledge did that 14 group have any responsibilities with regards to 15 Fluoxetine? 16 A. I would think so, only in the 17 sense of his medical coordination activities 18 anywhere that there may have been either -- and 19 again, it's not to my knowledge -- Latin America, 20 the Commonwealth or Japan or Asia, if there was 21 involvement in Fluoxetine, he would have been 22 involved if there had been. 23 Q. And this is Doctor Allen 24 Weinstein; correct? Page 113 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And again, under Doctor Zerbe 3 you're listed? 4 A. Right. 5 Who are these people to the right, Doctor 6 Lemberger, Tollefson -- 7 A. These again would be very 8 similar to the others under Reid and Weinstein, 9 this represents the technical side. 10 Q. So what is a Lilly research 11 fellow, what is their purpose? 12 A. Lilly research fellow, to my 13 understanding, is part of the technical 14 structure, job recognition achievement. 15 Q. So they're just at the top of 16 the heap at the technical structure? 17 A. That would be my 18 interpretation, yes. 19 Q. He's head research physician, I 20 mean would it be like -- I guess I just don't 21 understand -- 22 A. It's a technical recognition 23 for individual achievement, so it's recognizing 24 the individual for individual achievement as a Page 114 1 scientist. 2 Q. Okay. Do you know when Doctor 3 Lemberger became a Lilly research fellow under 4 Doctor Zerbe's group? 5 A. No, I don't know. 6 Q. Now some of these people at 7 least were on the list that you gave me earlier 8 as far as executive directors; correct, Doctor 9 Tollefson, Doctor Dies, Doctor Franson, I think? 10 A. Doctor Franson, yes. 11 Q. How about Doctor Lemberger, was 12 he an executive director to your knowledge? 13 A. No, I don't know. I know of 14 him as a Lilly research fellow. 15 Q. Okay. How about Doctor Brown, 16 is he an executive director? 17 A. Is he today? 18 Q. Or was he. 19 A. He was director of the Lilly 20 clinic. 21 Q. Okay. And again, under your 22 name follows Doctor Talbott's name; correct? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And again, at least from this, Page 115 1 you can't tell if Doctor Talbott reported to you 2 generally or if it was just reported to you 3 administratively; correct? 4 A. That's correct. 5 Q. And under Doctor Talbott comes 6 Mister Noone, Ms. Ashbrook and the regulatory 7 scientists slash associates; correct? 8 A. Correct. 9 Q. Who were the regulatory 10 scientists slash associates, what is their 11 function? 12 A. Again, my understanding of 13 their function is they would be the technical 14 regulatory liaison. 15 Q. As opposed to administrative? 16 A. As opposed to administrative, 17 correct. 18 Q. Is it your understanding that 19 Mister Noone at least worked on the 20 administrative side of that? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And how about -- where does Ms. 23 Ashbrook follow in this? 24 A. Again, administrative. Page 116 1 Q. Administrative, okay. On the 2 chart it lists Doctor Roffey as vice president of 3 project management. Do you know what that group 4 does? 5 A. Yes. Their responsibility, 6 from my understanding, is to coordinate overall 7 activities across the research component, the 8 whole of research. That would include basic 9 discovery and development, medical, toxicology. 10 Q. Okay. Is that a technical or 11 administrative function? 12 A. I would say it's a little of 13 both. 14 MS. ZETTLER: Do you want to take lunch 15 now? This is a good place to stop. 16 MR. MYERS: Good. 17 (A LUNCH RECESS WAS TAKEN.) 18 MS. ZETTLER: Could you read the last 19 question back? 20 (THE COURT REPORTER READ BACK THE 21 REQUESTED TESTIMONY.) 22 MR. MYERS: You asked him about -- that 23 had to do with one of the people on the chart, I 24 think it was Doctor Roffey, I think. Page 117 1 THE WITNESS: Yes, exactly. 2 MS. ZETTLER: Okay, all right. 3 Q. Do you have any knowledge or 4 recollection of Prozac being withdrawn from the 5 market in Austria? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Do you know Mister or Doctor 8 Hardison, H-A-R-D-I-S-O-N? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Have you ever had any contact 11 with anybody from the FDA personally? 12 A. No. 13 Q. How about the National 14 Institute of Mental Health? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Any governmental regulatory 17 agency? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Any outside psychiatric agency? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Outside of Lilly? 22 A. Yes, no. 23 Q. Any outside medical agency? 24 MR. MYERS: What do you mean by that? Page 118 1 MS. ZETTLER: Like the AMA. 2 A. No. 3 Q. Are you familiar with the FDA 4 regulations of reporting adverse events on 5 clinical trials? 6 A. Roughly. I'm not an expert in 7 it, but yes, I can go to where I need to get the 8 information, yes. 9 Q. Can you tell me generally what 10 your understanding of the policy is? 11 A. Oh, I'm not that steeped in it 12 because I don't work with it directly myself. I 13 would know where to go and get it. I would go to 14 Max's area, for example, Max Talbott's area, and 15 get the policy statement. 16 Q. When you say the policy 17 statement, you mean? 18 A. Regulations, et cetera. 19 Q. FDA regulations? 20 A. Right. 21 Q. So if you had a question you 22 would go to Max Talbott's area? 23 A. Exactly. 24 Q. Have you ever had occasion to Page 119 1 do that? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Are you familiar with the 4 phrase serious adverse event? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Can you tell me what a serious 7 adverse event is? 8 A. Only from a layman's 9 perspective because I don't get involved in it. 10 Q. That's fine. 11 A. It would be steeped in a 12 regulatory definition, and I couldn't quote you 13 that definition. 14 Q. Okay. 15 A. Because I don't work with that. 16 Q. Your understanding is just that 17 it's a technical term that's used by the FDA? 18 A. Well, and others in the medical 19 community, sure. I know enough -- if you were to 20 say what does it mean to me, serious adverse 21 event, it means that someone better be paying 22 attention about something, the right people 23 better be involved quickly. 24 Q. When you say the right people -- Page 120 1 A. Technical people, physicians, 2 for example. 3 Q. Why would they need to be 4 involved quickly? 5 A. To make a judgment as to the 6 impact of that. In other words, yes, they are 7 the trained individuals when someone says we have 8 a serious adverse event, for me that would be a 9 signal to get to a physician, like now kind of 10 thing. 11 Q. When you say it would have a 12 serious impact on who or on what? 13 A. I couldn't make that judgment, 14 I wouldn't want to. 15 Q. But do you mean a serious 16 impact on Lilly, a serious impact on the 17 physician? 18 A. First of all it would be 19 patient or any study. So if it's a serious 20 adverse event, someone knowledgable to make a 21 judgment needs to know that if they don't 22 already. 23 Q. Are you done? 24 A. I was going to say in the Page 121 1 context of someone -- if I were to pick up a 2 phone call, and someone said I have a serious 3 adverse event to report, then my immediate 4 reaction, and that's the spirit in which I'm 5 responding, is to get someone qualified to deal 6 immediately with that. 7 Q. Has that ever happened? 8 A. No, not to me. 9 Q. Have you ever heard of 10 subsyndromal syndrome? 11 A. I've heard of it. 12 Q. Can you tell me where you heard 13 of it? 14 A. Well, I've heard it at Lilly, 15 I've heard people reference it. 16 Q. In what context? 17 A. Depression. But again, not in 18 a context that it would mean anything to me. 19 Q. Are you aware of whether or not 20 Lilly is doing any studies related to 21 subsyndromal syndrome and depression? 22 A. My understanding is yes, but 23 more than that, I don't know anything about it. 24 Q. And this is an ongoing study? Page 122 1 A. I don't know that. 2 Q. Have you ever heard of 3 prodromal? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Do you have any responsibility 6 in your position as executive director of Lilly 7 research labs to oversee clinical trials that are 8 being conducted on any given compound? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Is there somebody underneath 11 you that would have that responsibility? 12 A. No, not -- your definition of 13 oversee? 14 Q. Keep track of what's being 15 done, what has been done, you know. In other 16 words, if I needed to go to somebody to ask what 17 clinical trials are currently being conducted on 18 Fluoxetine or depression, who would I go to to 19 ask that question? 20 A. There would be two specific 21 individuals that would have details on that, one 22 would be the department head that runs the 23 support group, and the division director. They 24 in turn could direct you to the specific Page 123 1 individual, either physician or support group. 2 Q. Okay. But what I'm asking is 3 is there some place within the medical division 4 that I could go to find out what studies have 5 been conducted on Fluoxetine, what clinical 6 trials have been conducted on Fluoxetine? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And are these two individuals 9 that you talked about earlier or is it somebody 10 else? 11 A. No, the primary responsibility 12 there would be the division director. 13 Q. Who is the division director 14 right now? 15 A. For what? 16 Q. For Fluoxetine. 17 A. Gary Tollefson. 18 Q. Would he be the same person 19 that would have information on what clinical 20 trials are currently being conducted on 21 Fluoxetine? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Would he also have information 24 on any clinical trials that are being considered Page 124 1 on Fluoxetine? 2 A. He certainly would be a key 3 person, yes. 4 Q. Are you familiar with the 5 phrase rechallenge study? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Who is the department head that 8 runs the Fluoxetine support group? 9 A. Carol Zapapas. 10 Q. Does she work with Doctor 11 Tollefson also? 12 A. Yes, uh-huh. 13 Q. To your knowledge would she 14 have information on what clinical trials are 15 currently being conducted on Fluoxetine? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Are you her supervisor, so to 18 speak? 19 A. Administratively. 20 Q. Doctor Talbott would be her 21 supervisor technically? 22 A. Doctor Tollefson. 23 Q. Tollefson, okay. So does she 24 technically report to you and Doctor Tollefson? Page 125 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. In your various areas? 3 A. Yes, administratively to me, 4 and technically to Doctor Tollefson supports the 5 technical group. 6 Q. Okay. Do you have any 7 responsibilities over the drug epidemiology unit? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Whose area is that? 10 A. That's Max Talbott's. 11 Q. Do you provide administrative 12 support for the DEU? 13 A. Not at this time, no, that's 14 all under Max. 15 Q. Have you ever heard of a Doctor 16 Ivan Miller? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Have you ever heard of Doctor 19 Jan Fawcett? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Are you aware that there's an 22 issue as to whether or not Fluoxetine causes 23 increased suicidal ideation in people with 24 depression? Page 126 1 A. Am I aware of that as an issue, 2 yes. 3 Q. When did you first become aware 4 of that issue? 5 A. I guess it would have been 6 sometime during the time I was in London. 7 Q. Sometime between Spring of '88 8 and May of '92? 9 A. Yes. I can't really be more 10 exact than that, but yes, somewhere in there. 11 Q. Okay. Are you aware that 12 there's an issue as to whether or not Fluoxetine 13 can cause violent aggressive behavior in people 14 with depression? 15 A. In a general way, yes, I am 16 aware, but only aware. 17 Q. Okay. What is your 18 understanding of the issue regarding suicidality 19 and the use of Fluoxetine, in what context did 20 you learn of the issue? 21 A. Really some of the publications 22 that came out post the Teicher -- is it Teicher, 23 report? 24 Q. What publications after Page 127 1 Teicher? 2 A. Whatever, I mean reading in a 3 newspaper or something, because I don't read the 4 scientific literature, I am not interested in the 5 scientific literature. 6 Q. I don't blame you. Did you 7 have any discussions with other personnel at 8 Lilly regarding the suicidality issue? 9 A. Not -- well, in what context? 10 Q. Any context whatsoever. 11 A. Other than the awareness of 12 articles in the newspaper where someone would 13 make a comment about, say, an article here in a 14 paper or something. But beyond that, no depth, 15 no substantive discussion. 16 Q. Did you have any meetings 17 regarding the issue with anybody else at Lilly? 18 A. Not that I've been a part of. 19 Q. Were you, in your capacity as 20 director of European personnel, were you asked to 21 provide human resources for any project related 22 to Fluoxetine and suicidality or violent 23 aggressive behavior? 24 A. No. Page 128 1 Q. Any type of administrative work 2 done in your capacity in London related to either 3 of those issues? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Are you aware that the FDA held 6 a drug advisory committee meeting in September of 7 1991 to deal with the issue of antidepressants 8 and suicidality? 9 A. Yes, I am aware of that. 10 Q. Did you have any 11 responsibilities whatsoever related to 12 preparation for that meeting? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Anybody under you? 15 A. No. 16 Q. In your capacity as executive 17 director of Lilly research labs, did you have 18 responsibility for creating any periodic type 19 documents to report on progress of clinical 20 trials or anything of that nature related to 21 Fluoxetine? 22 A. Do I personally, no. 23 Q. Anybody underneath you? 24 A. Yes. Page 129 1 Q. Who? 2 A. It would be individuals in the 3 support group that would be providing 4 administrative, the typing and the pulling 5 together of the information that would represent 6 progress. 7 Q. At any time have you been asked 8 to turn over documents related to Fluoxetine in 9 your possession to the legal department at Lilly? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Do you remember when that 12 started? 13 A. Not really. Certainly when I 14 returned into this assignment, but I can't tell 15 you when it has been. On more than a single 16 occasion, there have been reminders, but, yes. 17 Q. When you were in London were 18 you asked to turn over any documents related to 19 Fluoxetine or was anybody under you? 20 A. No, I would not have been 21 involved in anything, and quite frankly I can't 22 remember whether I saw something at that time 23 that would have been a broad sweeping, if you 24 have. I don't remember, quite frankly. Page 130 1 Q. When you say saw something, you 2 mean a reminder saying if you have anything 3 related to Fluoxetine? 4 A. Precisely, something that would 5 be generally sent out covering everyone in the 6 company, if such a thing went out. 7 Q. I want to remind you that 8 you've got to let me finish my question. 9 A. I'm sorry, sure. 10 Q. So I'm not confused, you don't 11 recall whether or not people at the London 12 affiliate at least were asked to turn over 13 Fluoxetine related documents while you were 14 there? 15 A. I don't recall that, that's 16 right. 17 Q. How is it that you're aware of 18 the advisory committee meeting in September of 19 1991? 20 A. I really don't know to be 21 sincere, I don't know. I just remember hearing 22 that there was a hearing, I think, an upcoming 23 advisory committee. 24 Q. To your knowledge were there Page 131 1 any changes in personnel made within the support -- 2 is it support group, that were made as a result 3 of the upcoming advisory committee meeting? 4 MR. MYERS: Which? 5 MS. ZETTLER: Before it happened, 6 September of '91. 7 MR. MYERS: He was in Europe then. 8 A. I was in Europe. 9 Q. Okay. Were there any personnel 10 changes that you're aware of in Europe that 11 resulted in preparation? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Are you aware of any personnel 14 changes that were made in the U.S.? 15 A. No. 16 Q. In your capacity as personnel 17 director in London, were you responsible for 18 setting up training sessions for employees? 19 A. Yes, I had an individual who 20 reported to me that was primarily responsible for 21 training. 22 Q. Who was that person? 23 A. At that time, Joachim Becker. 24 Q. What types of training programs Page 132 1 would be included under Mister Becker's 2 responsibilities? 3 A. Those were generally directed 4 at management assessment programs, manager 5 awareness programs, dealing with corporate 6 policy, values, things of that nature. 7 Q. Okay. How about in your 8 capacity, your present capacity, with Lilly 9 research labs, do you have any responsibility for 10 training of personnel? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. What are your responsibilities 13 now? 14 A. The medical training department 15 reports up through my organization. 16 Q. Who is head of the medical 17 training department right now? 18 A. Right now Greg Johnson. 19 Q. Do you know who preceded Mister 20 Johnson? 21 A. Doctor Alf Bingham. 22 Q. Do you know who preceded Doctor 23 Bingham? 24 A. No. Page 133 1 Q. How about prior to Mr. Bingham? 2 A. Yes, a lady by the name of -- 3 it gets away from me. 4 Q. Were these people all 5 department heads of medical training while you've 6 been involved as an executive director of LRL? 7 A. The three or -- yes, the three 8 that are mentioned there, Novello, Bingham and 9 Johnson, are director level individuals. But 10 among other things, they're responsible for 11 training. 12 Q. If you remember the woman's 13 name before we finish -- 14 A. Betsy Smitherman. 15 MR. MYERS: Pretty good. 16 Q. Smitherman? 17 A. Smitherman, 18 S-M-I-T-H-E-R-M-A-N. 19 Q. What types of training does 20 that department coordinate? 21 A. Two types in general, 22 individual skill-building training, which would 23 deal with compliance, understanding the various 24 roles as a support organization -- as what your Page 134 1 role is in support, so the very specific job 2 related skill, as well as developmental skills, 3 communication, interpersonal skills, 4 problem-solving skills, working in a team 5 environment. 6 Q. Okay. When you say skill 7 building and compliance, you mean regulatory 8 compliance? 9 A. Regulatory compliance, 10 corporate policy, corporate procedures. 11 Q. Is this something that is 12 provided to employees across the board within 13 that department, within the medical division? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Is this something that's given 16 to the employees when they're hired on? 17 A. It's delivered at a variety of 18 times, hopefully on an as-needed. That's to say 19 because it's quite a long process, that people 20 will enter at various stages of a particular drug 21 process. So as needed to support them. 22 Q. Say for instance there's a 23 change in FDA regs, okay, would a training 24 program be given on that? Page 135 1 A. That would be immediate. 2 Q. Okay. And developmental 3 skills, is that something that's also given 4 across the board or is that something that's 5 given as needed? 6 A. Across the board, and then 7 specific as defined by performance appraisals. 8 Q. So say if somebody was weak in 9 some area of interpersonal skills, working with 10 somebody else, then they might be given a 11 training session on working around whatever 12 problem they have? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Have you personally been 15 trained on the psychological aspects of 16 depression? 17 A. No. 18 Q. How about the physiological 19 aspects of depression? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Do you have any background in 22 medicine? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Any background in psychiatry? Page 136 1 A. No. 2 Q. Were you given any training 3 prior to becoming executive director of Lilly 4 research labs with regards to Fluoxetine? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Could you have gotten that 7 training if you wanted it? 8 A. I'm not sure what training, I 9 mean in this particular case, you would be 10 referencing. 11 Q. Training on the background of 12 the disease process itself. 13 A. Oh, there's no -- I mean this 14 is a layman speaking, there's no end of expertise 15 to gain that knowledge if a person wanted to 16 within the organization. 17 Q. Was there a formal training 18 program with regards to depression at Lilly? 19 MR. MYERS: For? 20 MS. ZETTLER: With regards to 21 depression. 22 MR. MYERS: For anybody? 23 MS. ZETTLER: Yes. 24 A. Not that I'm aware of. Page 137 1 Q. Okay. Is there reference 2 material available to Lilly employees with 3 regards to depression? 4 A. There's reference material 5 available, yes, to Lilly employees as well as 6 anyone. 7 Q. Let me give you an example. 8 Say I'm a CRA, I've just been hired as a CRA, and 9 I have no medical background whatsoever, and I'm 10 going to be asked to work with clinical 11 investigators who are conducting trials on 12 Fluoxetine in treatment of depression, okay? 13 A. Uh-huh. 14 Q. You have to say yes or no. 15 A. Yes, I'm sorry. 16 Q. Where would I go or how would I 17 become knowledgable regarding the disease of 18 depression? 19 A. I could share with you how I 20 would do it, okay, would that be fair? 21 Q. Sure. 22 A. I would work with the physician 23 responsible inside for that particular compound, 24 in this case Fluoxetine. I would work with that Page 138 1 physician. And again, understand what my role 2 is, which is administrative process related, 3 support related. So I wouldn't try to get too 4 deep into the technical part, only insofar as to 5 support the individual. 6 Q. Do you have an understanding of 7 what a clinical research administrator's function 8 is with regards to clinical trials? 9 A. Reasonable understanding. 10 Q. Can you tell me what your 11 understanding is? 12 A. Sure. It's the administrative 13 or, again, the support of individuals to help 14 implement, which would begin at the front end of 15 helping to materialize, if you will, into the 16 case report forms, et cetera, that are necessary 17 to go out, to be, if you will, led by, 18 administered by the clinical monitor, and to see 19 that that information, the start up meetings take 20 place, the people, that the materials are 21 available, that the right folks are there for the 22 physician to introduce, to explain whatever is 23 necessary to get the clinical trial started. And 24 then to help facilitate the flow of information Page 139 1 so that it gets back into the hands of the 2 individual physician. 3 Q. Okay. Let's focus on the 4 start-up meetings. You said that part of the 5 CRA's responsibility is to help educate the site; 6 correct? 7 A. No, help provide the material, 8 and to help educate the site relative to process, 9 in other words how to fill out the material or 10 what material needs to be filled out. 11 Q. Okay. What about -- would that 12 involve at all teaching the site how to 13 administer tests, such as, say, like, the 14 depression rating scale or something along those 15 lines? 16 A. To my knowledge, a CRA would 17 not do that. 18 Q. Okay. What about information 19 that is sent back to Lilly from the sites, for 20 instance completed clinical report forms, what is 21 the CRA's function in that capacity? 22 A. The CRA's responsibility is to 23 see that the information is collected as 24 requested, and provide that to the physician for Page 140 1 indications. 2 Q. So they're just concerned with 3 making sure all the blanks are filled in? 4 A. Yes, in a sense, that's correct 5 really. 6 Q. Do they have any responsibility 7 to check the information that's coming in to make 8 sure that it's accurate? 9 A. Again, accurate would depend on 10 what you mean by accurate. 11 Q. Let me tell you what my 12 understanding is from other depositions of how 13 this works, and I could be wrong, but this is my 14 understanding. 15 MR. MYERS: She could be wrong. 16 MS. ZETTLER: I could be wrong, and if 17 I am, I'm sure Larry will tell me. 18 MR. MYERS: I will. 19 Q. My understanding from talking 20 with CRAs is that when the case report forms come 21 in, which is usually on a periodic basis, like 22 within a week after the last visit, okay; is that 23 correct? 24 A. Well, it could be more often Page 141 1 than that, but that's right, yes. 2 Q. That it is sent to data 3 processing where it is entered into the computer, 4 right? 5 A. Yes, double entry. 6 Q. And then the CRA's 7 responsibility is to check not only that all the 8 information is there, but also do computer edits 9 to make sure there's nothing that falls outside 10 the so-called normal range; correct? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. Do they have any responsibility 13 outside of purely following what the computer 14 tells them with regards to the computer edits, do 15 they have any responsibility to double-check or 16 look at, say, the hard copy case report form and 17 make sure that the information has been correctly 18 entered into the computer? 19 A. They do check these, yes, the 20 cleaning process. 21 Q. Okay. Do they have any 22 responsibility with regards to assignment of 23 adverse event terms? 24 A. The responsibility for that Page 142 1 rests with the physician. 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. They will facilitate or support 4 that. 5 Q. How? 6 A. If they see an adverse event 7 term, they will reference it through the Costart. 8 If they see -- and if they see there's a 9 question, then of course the physician will 10 respond to that. 11 Q. So, for example, if a clinical 12 investigator writes on that portion of the CRF 13 meant for adverse event that a person became 14 suicidal, the CRA would look up the term suicidal 15 in the Costart and see if it mapped to something 16 or whatever it mapped to, and then add that 17 Costart term? 18 A. You used a specific, suicidal. 19 That's like it would be a flag immediately, that 20 the CRA would be walking into a physician 21 immediately. 22 Q. Okay. Let's try rash. 23 A. Okay. Sure. 24 Q. In that situation would the CRA Page 143 1 then look to see where it would map to in the 2 Costart and then add the Costart term along with 3 the actual event term; correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Besides suicidal, or suicidal 6 ideation, would there be any other adverse events 7 that would cause the CRA to walk it directly to a 8 physician? 9 A. That -- yes, I'm sure there 10 are, but I couldn't give you really examples. 11 Q. How do you know that in the 12 situation of suicidal ideation or suicide that 13 the CRA would actually physically walk in to the 14 clinical research physician? 15 A. Well, mostly from, again, my 16 interpretation with anything that deals with 17 anything near serious has to be brought 18 immediately to a physician's attention. 19 Q. And you personally consider 20 suicide attempt serious? 21 A. Yes, I mean that's me, that's 22 not a medical judgment. 23 Q. How about homicide, would that 24 be something that you would consider serious that Page 144 1 should be reported directly to the clinical 2 research physician? 3 A. Me, yes. 4 Q. What if a suicide attempt did 5 not fall under the technical definition, 6 technical FDA definition, of serious, would it 7 still be in your opinion walked directly to a 8 clinical research physician? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. If it isn't, should it be, 11 purely because it's a suicide attempt? 12 A. Given -- you're asking me, and 13 given the nature of -- yes. 14 Q. To your understanding, are the 15 regulations set up by the FDA for seriousness, 16 unexpected, things of that nature, is that 17 something that's subjective? In other words, can 18 something be a subjective decision on the part of 19 a clinical research physician? 20 MR. MYERS: Well, before he answers, 21 let me object to the form only to the extent that 22 the term is defined by regulation, and it is 23 whatever the regulation says it is. But if he 24 can answer it, go ahead, but I object to the Page 145 1 form. 2 A. I was going to ask for 3 clarification of the question. 4 Q. Sure. It wasn't the greatest 5 question in the world. Your understanding of the 6 FDA regulations with regards to serious is that 7 there are some regulatory definitions as to what 8 makes a certain event serious; correct? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. Have you ever seen what those 11 definitions are? 12 A. Not really, I have no need to. 13 Q. Are you aware of whether any of 14 those definitions leave room for a professional 15 judgment on the part of the physician? 16 A. I have no awareness. 17 Q. Have you ever heard of numbers 18 as to how many people have committed suicide 19 while taking Fluoxetine? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Have you ever heard numbers as 22 to how many people have been prescribed 23 Fluoxetine? 24 A. Yes, I have. In the past, I Page 146 1 either have read that in articles, again, in 2 Lilly press, or heard people reference it. 3 Q. Have you seen any figures as to 4 how many people have been prescribed Fluoxetine 5 that have come from Lilly? 6 A. None, not directly myself. 7 Q. Have you heard of a DEN weekly 8 printing or elapsed time report? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Can you tell me what that is? 11 A. It's a report put out by the 12 drug epidemiology unit, and I am copied on those. 13 But it's more into the technical realm of things, 14 so I don't personally get involved with it. 15 Q. Did you review any documents in 16 preparation for your deposition today? 17 A. Please? 18 Q. Did you review any documents in 19 preparation for your deposition? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Did you ask to? 22 A. No. I wouldn't have known what 23 to ask for. 24 Q. Pardon? Page 147 1 A. I wouldn't have known what to, 2 you know. 3 Q. Did you do anything in 4 preparation for your deposition today? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. What did you do? 7 A. Yesterday met with the 8 corporate attorneys. 9 Q. Okay. Who were they? 10 A. Mary Huff. 11 Q. Anybody else? 12 A. Yes, but I cannot remember the 13 name. A gentleman that I don't remember, I'm 14 sorry. 15 Q. Besides Mary and the gentleman 16 that you don't remember, have you met with 17 anybody else prior to your deposition? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Have you discussed this 20 deposition with anyone outside of Eli Lilly? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Talked to your wife about it? 23 A. Mentioned that I was going to 24 be here today, but more than that, no. Page 148 1 Q. Besides your meeting yesterday, 2 did you meet with any other attorneys? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Have you discussed Fluoxetine 5 in the context of any lawsuit with anyone else at 6 any time? 7 A. No. 8 Q. What is the purpose of the DEN 9 weekly printing elapsed time reports? 10 A. The purpose? 11 Q. Uh-huh. 12 A. I really -- I don't get 13 involved with that, so I would only -- I'm not 14 really in a position to say. It's a technical 15 report that's dealt with on the physician's side, 16 by and large, so -- I have plenty to do on my 17 administrative side, so I don't try to even get 18 into that. 19 Q. Do you know why you're copied 20 on the reports? 21 A. Because the support 22 organization is involved with generating some of 23 the information that goes through the physicians. 24 Q. Do you know Melissa Humbert? Page 149 1 A. Do I know her, yes. 2 Q. Can you tell me who she is? 3 A. Currently Melissa is a manager 4 in the discovery research area. 5 Q. Did she ever work under you? 6 A. Yes, right after I came into 7 this job back in early -- or somewhere in April, 8 May, June timeframe of last year. She was a 9 department head under Max Talbott's area, under 10 Earlene Ashbrook, I believe. 11 Q. Earlier you testified that 12 periodically there would be reminders to turn 13 over Fluoxetine documents to the legal 14 department. Have you ever turned documents over 15 to the legal department that you had with regards 16 to Fluoxetine? 17 A. Any that I had, I would have. 18 I don't think I've had that many. 19 Q. Did you personally turn them 20 over or did you have your secretary do it? 21 A. Through the secretary. 22 Q. Were you ever told not to turn 23 over certain documents that you had with regards 24 to Fluoxetine? Page 150 1 A. No. 2 Q. Do you keep any of your 3 information regarding Fluoxetine on floppy disks? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Do you use a computer? 6 A. I don't use it much. 7 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 3 WAS 8 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION AND 9 RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE.) 10 Q. These seem to be, besides the 11 dates, similar to -- 12 MR. MYERS: Look through it? 13 MS. ZETTLER: I just want him to read 14 the first page. 15 MR. MYERS: Sure. 16 Q. I'm not going to get into 17 detail about each and every one. I just want to 18 know if this refreshes your recollection as to 19 what the DEN weekly printing elapsed time report 20 is? 21 A. Yes. You know, I'm familiar 22 with this, but I never really access it. 23 Q. To your knowledge did you -- 24 would the actual report be connected to this Page 151 1 cover page? 2 A. Please go further with that. 3 Q. Well, in the text of the memo, 4 the first page dated March 17th, 1992, it talks 5 about describing reports, and it says the last -- 6 for initial report, it says the last column with 7 headers -- 8 A. Right. 9 Q. It goes on to basically tell 10 you how to read the report, right? 11 A. Right. 12 Q. To your knowledge would the 13 report actually be attached to this cover page? 14 A. Yes, I think that's correct, 15 uh-huh. 16 Q. And you've seen the reports 17 attached to the cover pages? 18 A. I believe so, yes. 19 Q. Do you know of any reason why 20 your secretary or yourself would have turned over 21 just the cover page of these without turning over 22 the reports themselves? 23 MR. MYERS: Let me object to the form, 24 that assumes he had the report, assuming he had Page 152 1 it. 2 A. Yes. I would have to see what 3 is attached or the attachment you're referencing 4 to be very clear with you, because it's not a 5 document that I reference. 6 Q. Okay. 7 A. In other words, when I see 8 this, I don't do anything with it, it's directed, 9 as far as I'm concerned, to the technical folks. 10 Q. But at some point in time, at 11 least you kept these pages in a file? 12 A. No, I didn't, I don't keep 13 them. 14 Q. You don't keep anything? 15 A. I did not of these. 16 Q. Okay. 17 A. Because if someone needs it, I 18 know where I can go get it. 19 Q. What types of documents would 20 you have turned over to the legal department at 21 Lilly? 22 A. I don't really remember much 23 about it, quite frankly, because they would have 24 asked for specifically anything that dealt with Page 153 1 Fluoxetine, and I don't really get involved in 2 anything with that. 3 Q. Do you recall turning over any 4 documents whatsoever? 5 A. It seems to me that there might 6 have been something in a file, I mean like a -- I 7 don't remember, I really don't, because if I'm 8 not mistaken, I think it was -- yes, no, I just 9 don't remember. 10 Q. With regards to Exhibit 3, you 11 do recall seeing reports at least at some time 12 attached to the cover sheets? 13 A. It seems to me that there's 14 been an attachment of a page or two. Now whether 15 that's the report you're referencing, I really 16 don't know. 17 Q. Well, I'm not really 18 referencing any report, it just seems -- would 19 you agree with me that the first page of Exhibit 20 3 seems to talk about descriptions of the DEN 21 weekly printing elapsed time report and how to 22 read it? 23 A. Uh-huh. 24 Q. You have to say yes. Page 154 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Would you agree with me that it 3 would make sense that the actual report would be 4 connected to the cover page? 5 A. Yes, it would make sense. 6 Q. And you do have recollection of 7 seeing additional pages connected to this cover 8 page? 9 A. Yes. 10 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 4 WAS 11 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION AND 12 RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE.) 13 Q. Okay. Have you had a chance to 14 review Exhibit 4? 15 A. I've looked at it, yes. 16 Q. Recognizing that much of the 17 information has been blacked out of this exhibit, 18 Mister Brickler, do you recognize this? 19 A. Not really. 20 Q. Are you familiar with backlog 21 reports in general? 22 A. Not really. 23 Q. Is a backlog report something 24 that would be of concern to your area? Page 155 1 A. Only my backlog of what 2 actually -- oh, case report forms. Yes, in the 3 sense that if highlighted or brought to my 4 specific attention, that I would go then back 5 through the people in the organization to have 6 something, some action taken. 7 Q. Okay. Before that last group 8 of black outs there -- 9 A. Uh-huh. 10 Q. -- there's a reference to the S 11 oh oh two suicide scale. Do you see that? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Are you familiar with that 14 study, Mister Brickler? 15 A. Not at all. 16 Q. Who is S. M Harrill, 17 H-A-R-R-I-L-L? 18 A. Mike Harrill. 19 Q. Is he within your department? 20 A. He reported to me. He was the 21 manager of the area, so he was between myself and 22 the various department heads. 23 Q. Is he still a manager? 24 A. He's still a manager in the Page 156 1 medical organization, in a different role. 2 Q. Which role is he in now? 3 A. He works with the U.S. 4 affiliate. 5 Q. What's the U.S. affiliate? 6 A. It's those activities directed 7 specifically within the United States, 8 differentiated from global. 9 Q. Do you know if he has 10 responsibilities related to Fluoxetine at this 11 time? 12 A. Yes, in a similar 13 administrative capacity to mine. 14 Q. When he worked under you as a 15 manager, did he have responsibilities directly 16 with Fluoxetine? 17 A. Again, I would respond in a way 18 in which I would have responsibilities, he was in 19 an administrative role where the department heads 20 reported to him. 21 Q. Okay. Are you familiar with 22 any ongoing Fluoxetine studies at this time? 23 A. No. 24 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 5 WAS Page 157 1 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION AND 2 RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE.) 3 Q. Okay. Have you had a chance to 4 review Exhibit 5? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Are you familiar with any of 7 those pages, Mister Brickler? 8 A. Not really -- I mean, yes, in 9 the sense that Max would copy me on messages of 10 this nature, because at that time he reported up 11 through me administratively, but that's all. 12 Q. Okay. Do you recall the ten 13 milligram supplement to Prozac being approved? 14 A. Not really. 15 Q. Who is Gary Tauscher? 16 A. Who? 17 Q. Who is Gary Tauscher? 18 A. Gary is in marketing. 19 Q. What does he do in marketing? 20 A. I believe he's executive 21 director in the CNS area. 22 Q. In marketing is Prozac followed 23 to the CNS? 24 A. Yes. Page 158 1 Q. What about Alan Webber, who is 2 Alan Webber? 3 A. Alan Webber is a regulatory 4 scientist that reports to Max Talbott. 5 Q. Who is Earl Scott? 6 A. I believe that he has 7 responsibility for packaging and printing. 8 Q. How about Kenneth Crites? 9 A. I don't know that name. 10 Q. James Lancaster? 11 A. Lancaster, I believe, is in 12 marketing, is an associate possibly in marketing. 13 Q. Go back to the top of Exhibit 3 14 real quick. At the bottom of the last few pages 15 there's a person, H. M. Hieber. 16 A. Ardith Hieber. 17 Q. Who is she? 18 A. She replaced Melissa when she 19 moved on to her next assignment. 20 Q. And at that time Melissa was in 21 what position before Ms. Hieber replaced her, 22 what position was Melissa in? 23 A. I believe she was in the drug 24 epidemiology unit, she was department head of Page 159 1 drug epidemiology. 2 Q. So Ms. Hieber became department 3 head of drug epidemiology? 4 A. Yes. 5 (PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 6 WAS 6 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION AND 7 RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE.) 8 Q. Have you had a chance to review 9 Exhibit 6? 10 A. I glanced through it. 11 Q. Do you recognize it? 12 A. No. 13 Q. It purports to be a memorandum 14 dated June 9, 1987; correct? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. And the subject matter of the 17 memo is Report From New Clinical Drug Evaluation 18 Unit Program Meeting Held In Key Biscayne, 19 Florida -- May 26th through May 28th, 1987; 20 correct? 21 A. Correct. 22 Q. Why would you be copied on such 23 a memo? 24 A. At this time I would have been Page 160 1 in the personal director's role. And my answer 2 to your question would be it appears that 3 everyone in medical management at that time was 4 copied. 5 Q. Okay. Do you recall the 6 subject matter of this memorandum? 7 A. No. 8 Q. It talks about a meeting where 9 various issues were discussed; correct? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. One of those issues was whether 12 or not the use of placebos in clinical trials is 13 effective and appropriate; correct? 14 A. It appears to be, yes, correct. 15 Q. Do you know who called this 16 meeting, can you tell from the memo who called 17 this meeting? 18 A. I would have to read through it 19 very carefully because right now I don't have a 20 clue. 21 Q. Why don't you go ahead and read 22 it. 23 A. Okay. Your question was? 24 Q. Can you tell from this memo who Page 161 1 called this meeting in Key Biscayne? 2 A. I can't, no, I can't. 3 Q. Okay. On the first page 4 towards the top, the first full paragraph of the 5 memo it says first morning session included a 6 report on the blank activities. 7 A. Uh-huh. 8 Q. Yes? 9 A. I'm sorry, what was your 10 question? 11 Q. Is that -- 12 A. Yes, that's what it says. 13 Q. Okay. Can you tell from that 14 whether or not this is a meeting called by Lilly 15 or somebody outside of Lilly? 16 A. The NCDEU, I would think that 17 is an outside organization and not -- I can't 18 give you any more than that because it's beyond 19 my depth. I have heard referenced NCDEU, and 20 I've heard people refer to NCDEU meetings, so my 21 assumption would be that it's an outside group 22 that has periodic professional meetings. 23 Q. What is NCDEU, other than new 24 clinical drug evaluation unit. Page 162 1 A. That's what -- yes. 2 Q. Do you know if that's a 3 governmental regulatory agency? 4 A. I don't know, I don't know. 5 MS. ZETTLER: Let's take a quick break 6 and let me look at my notes, but I think I might 7 be done. 8 MR. MYERS: Okay. 9 (A SHORT RECESS WAS TAKEN.) 10 Q. Just a few more. I want to 11 make sure that I understand your earlier 12 testimony when we were talking about the CRAs, 13 okay? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. So it's your understanding that 16 the CRAs without medical background get the 17 majority of their understanding about the disease 18 process of, say, depression from the clinical 19 research physicians that they work with. 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Would that be the same for the 22 way the drug works, a particular drug they're 23 working on, if they had questions about that, 24 they would have to go to the CRP? Page 163 1 A. Oh, yes, yes, from my 2 understanding that's absolutely correct. 3 Q. Are you aware of any pending 4 training programs for Lilly employees regarding 5 changes in FDA regulations, anything that's 6 coming up? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Okay. Are you aware of any 9 training programs that have occurred recently 10 with regards to changes in Federal regulations? 11 A. Not in regard to any recent 12 changes. 13 Q. Okay. What training programs 14 for Lilly employees have been conducted in the 15 past six months? 16 A. In general within medical? 17 Q. Right. 18 A. We had a training program just 19 outside the six-month period that you referenced, 20 but I think it's important to mention one was 21 global clinical practices, good clinical 22 practices of the global nature. And that was a 23 training for awareness since our activity is 24 global. So awareness to the regulations, for Page 164 1 example, Europe, Japan, Australia or where they 2 tend to be different. 3 Q. Okay. 4 (DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD.) 5 A. Training as well on global 6 policy where we wanted to -- corporate global 7 policy, where we wanted to roll out a consistent 8 policy throughout. So it's kind of an update. 9 And then most recently we were working through 10 the performance management training program for 11 all of medical. 12 Q. Okay. When you say good 13 clinical practice awareness, are you talking 14 about, I believe, regulations from other 15 countries, things of that nature? 16 A. Correct. 17 Q. Is that something that any 18 Lilly employee within medical could attend if 19 they wanted to or was that offered to specific 20 employees? 21 A. It was mandatory for all 22 medical employees. 23 Q. How long was it? 24 A. Four hours. Page 165 1 Q. Where was it held? 2 A. At our facility. 3 Q. In Indianapolis? 4 A. In Indianapolis, as well as 5 internationally at their local affiliates. 6 Q. So, say, if somebody, the 7 Japanese, would get a refresher course on 8 Japanese regulations, and then be told about 9 United States regulations as well? 10 A. I can't speak for that, the 11 Japanese portion. 12 Q. Would the employees here in the 13 United States get a refresher course on the U.S. 14 regulations and then be told about regulations 15 from other countries? 16 A. Yes, it's a combination of U.S. 17 regulations and then the regulations as 18 referenced in other countries. 19 Q. Would it highlight the 20 differences between the countries? 21 A. We're working to highlight 22 differences, that are available in the awareness 23 program to be certain that you understood that 24 there were differences so that if you were going Page 166 1 to be working through a registration that you 2 understood what the differences were. 3 Q. Was there any documentation 4 handed out at the training programs? 5 A. Documentation? 6 Q. Like manuals. 7 A. Yes, each individual received 8 the condensed portion of regulations. 9 Q. Okay. And would that manual 10 highlight differences between the countries, 11 within the countries? 12 A. You would have to pull those 13 out. What they are is -- I'm not sure how you 14 would say it, it's the factual representation of 15 the regulations by country, and then you would -- 16 if you wanted to see the difference, you would 17 have to look at the U.S. versus Europe versus 18 Japan on a specific issue. 19 Q. So you would have to physically 20 compare them yourself? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And then you said that, and 23 maybe I misunderstood you, but that you're 24 working on putting together something that would Page 167 1 compare the differences? 2 A. The medical quality assurance 3 group, which does not report to me, is working on 4 a consolidation that will make it easier for 5 people, it would be simply an efficiency factor. 6 Q. Easy to cross reference? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. When do they plan on having 9 that done, if you know? 10 A. I don't know. 11 Q. Then the other training program 12 or one of the other training programs you talked 13 about was global policy updates? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And that's Lilly global policy? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And that's a policy across the 18 board for all affiliates in all countries? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. These two programs, the good 21 clinical practices and global policy programs, 22 would medical employees with responsibilities for 23 Fluoxetine have attended those programs? 24 A. Yes. Page 168 1 Q. When you say medical employees, 2 does that include regulatory? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Performance management, explain 5 to me what that is? 6 A. That's an earlier reference 7 this morning, what we talked about, the marriage 8 of management by objectives with effective 9 coaching and feedback. So it's where you and I 10 where, say, I'm reporting to you, we collectively 11 will develop my objectives for an upcoming 12 period. Working with you, you will assure that 13 they're in alignment with the larger goals, and 14 then I know pretty much what really is expected 15 of me, and then through coaching and feedback, 16 one to another, we'll hopefully have more 17 influence on the progress and achievement of 18 those objectives. 19 Q. Is that a training program that 20 was mandatory for all people in medical? 21 A. It is mandatory for all the 22 people in medical, yes. And I say this because 23 we have not completed the first cycle, it's quite 24 a long process, it's a two to three-year program. Page 169 1 Q. Can you give me an idea of what 2 some of the different parts of the program are? 3 A. Well, sure. It's purpose -- 4 it's a performance-based program that essentially 5 tries to ensure that the overall -- you really 6 start from where you're headed corporately, and 7 then how does an individual division support that 8 corporate direction, and then how do your 9 departments within that division support. So 10 that, in a sense, if my role -- so that I don't 11 confuse in my role, for example, activity with 12 progress. 13 Q. Okay. 14 A. So I know that where I'm -- 15 (DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD.) 16 A. So do you want me to pick up 17 where you left off? 18 Q. Let's back up a little bit. 19 MS. ZETTLER: Can you read that back? 20 (THE COURT REPORTER READ BACK THE 21 REQUESTED TESTIMONY.) 22 Q. Let's back up a little bit. 23 Your goal with this program, performance 24 management, is to increase efficiency to a Page 170 1 certain extent. 2 A. It's more than efficiency, it's 3 effectiveness, and there is a difference, too. 4 It's to improve communication and clarity of what 5 the goals really are. 6 Q. Okay. Is this something that 7 is done with a series of training sessions? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Is it done with documents 10 backing up the training sessions, such as 11 manuals? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Guidelines, thing of that 14 nature? 15 A. I'm sorry, yes. 16 Q. Is this something that is 17 internal or is this something that is supposed to 18 be passed on, not necessarily directly, but to 19 clinical research or clinical investigators or 20 trial sites, things of that nature? 21 A. No, it's an internal program. 22 Q. Can you give me an example of 23 how the program would be applied to Fluoxetine? 24 A. I can give you an example, I'm Page 171 1 not sure it would be a real one, but it's -- for 2 example, if you have a Fluoxetine cluster or 3 group headed by a physician, that if there were 4 studies needed to support some aspect of 5 Fluoxetine to answer questions or what have you, 6 that would be an objective that would be set, and 7 hopefully then what you would expect is that 8 objective would match up with the overall 9 corporate objective of what they have for 10 Fluoxetine, as an example. If it was not at all 11 in support of that, it was not in alignment with 12 that, then it could be a lot of activity that 13 wouldn't yield any real value. 14 Q. So it's making sure that the 15 right hand knows what the left hand is doing, and 16 both hands know what the brain wants them to do? 17 A. That's a fair way of saying it, 18 sure. 19 Q. Are you aware of the ELECT 20 dictionary, have you ever heard of that? 21 A. Not really, no, I have to say 22 no. 23 Q. Have you heard of the Costart 24 dictionary? Page 172 1 A. Yes, I have heard of it. 2 Q. Are you aware that prior to 3 using the Costart dictionary that Lilly was using 4 a dictionary called the ELECT dictionary? 5 A. I'm not familiar with the 6 details. 7 Q. Are you aware of any training 8 programs that have been conducted since you've 9 been executive director of Lilly Research 10 Laboratories regarding changes made to the 11 Costart dictionary? 12 A. No, I'm not familiar. 13 Q. Are you familiar with any 14 training programs that have been conducted with 15 regards to reporting of adverse events? 16 A. Not in specific, other than 17 it's part of the curriculum that is available for 18 people as part of the training. 19 Q. For new employees? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. It's an integral part of the 22 training program that new employees are put 23 through? 24 A. Yes. Page 173 1 Q. Are you aware of any manuals 2 that are provided or any documents that are 3 provided to the new employees that relate to 4 reporting of adverse events? 5 A. Yes, yes, they exist. 6 Q. What kinds of documents? 7 A. They would be in the form of 8 procedures, and job aids, and training manuals. 9 Q. Are those three different types 10 of documents? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. You said training manuals, job 13 aids? 14 A. Job aids. 15 Q. What was the first one? 16 A. Procedures. 17 Q. When you say procedures, are 18 you referring to the PPP manual? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And what are job aids? 21 A. Job aids are just that, in a 22 sense, they're something less than procedure, but 23 will give more insight into -- more detail 24 possibly than someone who has a question could Page 174 1 refer to as literally an aid. 2 Q. Like the practical aspect of 3 implementing a procedure? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Is this an actual book? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And how long has Lilly been 8 using the job aids, as far as you know? 9 A. I really don't know, I don't. 10 Q. Have they been using them since 11 you've become executive director? 12 A. Oh, before. 13 Q. And training manuals, what is 14 the difference between training manuals and the 15 PPP manual? 16 A. The training manuals would be a 17 more formal adaptation from there, it would be a 18 manual that would be very specific to a section. 19 Q. And again, this is a separate 20 book? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Any other documents, manuals, 23 et cetera, that are used with regards to 24 training? Page 175 1 A. No, I think that's pretty much 2 the basis. 3 Q. Does your department have any 4 responsibilities with regards to advertising? 5 A. Advertising? 6 Q. Right. 7 A. No. 8 Q. Have you ever had 9 responsibility with regards to advertising in any 10 of your positions at Lilly? 11 A. No. Indirectly I would have 12 had some in recruitment. I cannot tell you 13 specifically, I know that at one time we did some 14 advertising. 15 Q. For recruiting personnel? 16 A. For recruiting personnel, yes. 17 Q. Not product advertising? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Just a couple more questions 20 about when you were a detail man. 21 A. Uh-huh. 22 Q. Were you given any training on 23 reporting of adverse events when you were a 24 detail man? Page 176 1 A. Awareness, and I have to go 2 back in my thinking, but awareness that any 3 adverse event must go -- that you, as a 4 representative of the company, and it's beyond 5 just sales, what you hear must be reported. 6 Q. Were you told as a detail man 7 to ask the people that you were detailing to if 8 any of their patients had suffered an adverse 9 event while on a Lilly product? 10 A. I do not remember that that was 11 so specifically said that way. 12 Q. Okay. Were you told what to do 13 if a doctor or somebody else that you were 14 detailing to raise the issue, like, in other 15 words, said Greg, I have this patient on Product 16 X that had a stroke, for example, were you told 17 what to do in that situation? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. What were you told to do? 20 A. Pick up the phone and call. 21 Q. Even if it was a non-serious 22 adverse event? 23 A. For me it was not a judgment, 24 that was not my judgment, I'm not allowed to make Page 177 1 that judgment. 2 Q. Who were you to call? 3 A. Call back into medical. 4 Q. Anybody specifically at medical 5 that was told? 6 A. You would describe immediately, 7 and they would direct you. 8 Q. What if a customer, for lack of 9 a better phrase, had a question about using the 10 drug in a particular manner or interactions with 11 a new drug, what were you told to do in that 12 situation? 13 A. Generally you would sense -- 14 going back in time now, you would sense the 15 urgency to what the question was, but picking up 16 on the question that you asked, if I could make 17 the assumption, it's not an emergency request 18 that you're asking for additional information. 19 Q. Sure. 20 A. That there was a form to be 21 filled out so that in front of the physician you 22 would write the nature of the question, and then 23 it would get overnight mailed into Indianapolis, 24 and that would be directed into the medical Page 178 1 department and they would respond. You would get 2 a copy of that response, but they would respond 3 directly to a physician. 4 Q. While you were a detail person 5 on, I believe you said, Ceclor, Keflex and what 6 other drug? 7 A. Ilosone. 8 Q. When you were a detail man on 9 those drugs, Keflex Ceclor and Ilosone, were you 10 involved in any meetings related to adverse 11 events, generally -- I don't want to know 12 anything specific -- about those drugs? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Were you aware of any training 15 programs for Lilly employees with regards to 16 adverse events related to Fluoxetine 17 specifically? 18 A. Specifically, no. For 19 Fluoxetine specifically, I'm not aware. 20 Q. What types of information as a 21 detail person would you provide to doctors that 22 you detailed to related to the drugs that you 23 were detailing? 24 A. What I would try to do would be Page 179 1 to talk to the physician regarding his or her use 2 of an antibiotic drug in a particular situation, 3 and now I really have to go back and pull some 4 things out, but it would be like talking about to 5 the physician about an upper respiratory ailment 6 in a compromised patient, or you would try to 7 describe a situation and learn from the physician 8 their method of treating that and how, say, 9 Ceclor, for example, might -- what the literature 10 would show, what the material would show, of the 11 success of Ceclor would be in a situation like 12 that. 13 Q. Okay. Would you try to find 14 out which drug they were currently using if they 15 weren't using Ceclor? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And then show them information 18 that might compare Ceclor's effectiveness with 19 the other drug or class of drugs? 20 A. As I remember, and I don't 21 remember a lot of product comparison, quite 22 frankly, but yes, there were comparitor charts, 23 for example, and I'm really pulling here, but say 24 Ceclor versus Amoxicillin or something of that Page 180 1 nature, sure. 2 Q. How did you get your 3 information on how Ceclor would be effective in, 4 to use your example, upper respiratory 5 infections? 6 A. This came as a result of the 7 training program. 8 Q. Okay. Would you speak 9 personally to clinical research physicians at 10 Lilly that were working on Ceclor? 11 A. Yes, clinical research 12 physicians for specific products would come in to 13 the training group. 14 Q. So the information that you had 15 on, number one, upper respiratory infections, and 16 number two, the effectiveness of Ceclor with 17 upper respiratory infections, was obtained by you 18 through Lilly? 19 A. Through Lilly. 20 Q. Either the training program or 21 specific questions to clinical research 22 physicians. 23 A. Yes, or the training 24 instructor. Page 181 1 Q. Any other avenues where you 2 could educate yourself on either the upper 3 respiratory infection, for example, or the action 4 of the drug? 5 A. Yes, any number of referenced 6 articles. I can't recall anything, but there 7 would be, you know, publications that would be 8 referenced. 9 Q. Were you ever given articles 10 that were published either by Lilly or by any 11 other entity that was critical of a Lilly drug 12 that you were detailing? Just generally, I don't 13 need a specific. 14 A. I don't think so, generally. I 15 mean factual is the way I would say it, if it 16 didn't work in a certain situation it would state 17 that. 18 Q. Would you pass that information 19 along to the doctors that you were detailing? 20 A. Yes. The critical part is the 21 credibility with the physician. 22 Q. Okay. 23 A. So, yes. 24 Q. Were you ever told by anybody Page 182 1 at Lilly as a detail person to downplay a 2 critical article of a Lilly drug? 3 A. No, no. 4 Q. Okay. 5 MS. ZETTLER: That's all I have, thank 6 you. 7 MR. MYERS: No questions. 8 (THE WITNESS WAS EXCUSED.) Page 183 1 COMMONWEALTH OF KENTUCKY ) 2 : ss COUNTY OF JEFFERSON ) 3 4 I, MARY KATHLEEN NOLD, A NOTARY PUBLIC IN 5 AND FOR THE STATE OF KENTUCKY AT LARGE, DO HEREBY 6 CERTIFY THAT THE FOREGOING TESTIMONY OF 7 GREGORY E. BRICKLER 8 WAS TAKEN BEFORE ME AT THE TIME AND PLACE AS 9 STATED IN THE CAPTION; THAT THE WITNESS WAS FIRST 10 DULY SWORN TO TELL THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH, 11 AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH; THAT THE SAID 12 PROCEEDINGS WERE TAKEN DOWN BY ME IN STENOGRAPHIC 13 NOTES AND AFTERWARDS TRANSCRIBED UNDER MY 14 DIRECTION; THAT IT IS A TRUE, COMPLETE AND 15 CORRECT TRANSCRIPT OF THE SAID PROCEEDINGS SO 16 HAD; THAT THE APPEARANCES WERE AS STATED IN THE 17 CAPTION. 18 WITNESS MY SIGNATURE THIS THE 27TH DAY OF 19 DECEMBER, 1993. 20 MY COMMISSION EXPIRES MARCH 10, 1994. 21 22 23 _________________________ MARY KATHLEEN NOLD 24 COURT REPORTER AND NOTARY PUBLIC STATE OF KENTUCKY AT LARGE Page 184 1 2 3 E R R A T A S H E E T 4 5 COMMONWEALTH OF KENTUCKY ) : SS 6 COUNTY OF JEFFERSON ) 7 8 I, GREGORY BRICKLER, THE UNDERSIGNED 9 DEPONENT, HAVE THIS DATE READ THE FOREGOING PAGES 10 OF MY DEPOSITION AND WITH THE CHANGES NOTED 11 BELOW, IF ANY, THESE PAGES CONSTITUTE A TRUE AND 12 ACCURATE TRANSCRIPTION OF MY DEPOSITION GIVEN ON 13 THE 1ST DAY OF DECEMBER, 1993 AT THE TIME AND 14 PLACE STATED THEREIN. 15 PAGE NO. LINE NO. CHANGE REASON Page 185 1 2 PAGE NO. LINE NO. CHANGE REASON 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 _____________________________ 10 GREGORY BRICKLER 11 SWORN TO AND SUBSCRIBED BEFORE ME THIS 12 _____ DAY OF __________, 1994. 13 _____________________________ NOTARY PUBLIC, STATE OF 14 KENTUCKY AT LARGE Page 186 1 2 3 Page 187 1 COMES GREGORY BRICKLER........6 2 COMMONWEALTH.........184 3 PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 1...........32 4 PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 2..........105 5 PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 3..........151 6 PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 4..........155 7 PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 5..........157 8 PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBIT NO. 6..........160 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 Page 188