1 1 NO. 90-CI-06033 JEFFERSON CIRCUIT COURT DIVISION ONE 2 3 4 JOYCE FENTRESS, et al PLAINTIFFS 5 6 VS TRANSCRIPT_OF_THE_PROCEEDINGS __________ __ ___ ___________ 7 8 9 SHEA COMMUNICATIONS, et al DEFENDANTS 10 11 *** 12 13 14 TUEDAY, OCTOBER 4, 1994 15 VOLUME VII 16 17 * * * 18 19 20 _____________________________________________________________ 21 REPORTER: JULIA K. McBRIDE Coulter, Shay, McBride & Rice 22 1221 Starks Building 455 South Fourth Avenue 23 Louisville, Kentucky 40202 (502) 582-1627 24 FAX: (502) 587-6299 25 2 1 I_N_D_E_X _ _ _ _ _ 2 Instructions to Jury..................................... 4 3 WITNESS: FORREST_CONRAD _______ _______ ______ 4 Examination by Mr. Smith................................. 8 Examination by Mr. Stopher............................... 29 5 Further Examination by Mr. Smith......................... 41 6 WITNESS: DAVID_SEIDENFADEN _______ _____ ___________ 7 Examination by Mr. Smith................................. 45 Examination by Mr. Stopher............................... 66 8 Further Examination by Mr. Smith......................... 77 9 WITNESS: STANLEY_HATFIELD _______ _______ ________ 10 Examination by Mr. Smith................................. 80 Examination by Mr. Stopher............................... 91 11 WITNESS: CHARLES_GORMAN _______ _______ ______ 12 Examination by Mr. Smith................................. 94 13 Examination by Mr. Stopher...............................125 Further Examination by Mr. Smith.........................131 14 Bench Discussion/Hearing in Chambers.....................132 15 WITNESS: ANDREW_POINTER _______ ______ _______ 16 Examination by Mr. Smith.................................139 17 Examination by Mr. Stopher...............................159 Further Examination by Mr. Smith.........................180 18 WITNESS: WILLIAM_THOMAS_HOFFMANN _______ _______ ______ ________ 19 Examination by Mr. Smith.................................182 20 Examination by Mr. Stopher...............................212 Further Examination by Mr. Smith.........................229 21 Hearing In Chambers......................................231 22 Reporter's Certificate...................................238 23 24 * * * 25 3 1 2 A_P_P_E_A_R_A_N_C_E_S _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 3 4 FOR THE PLAINTIFFS: 5 PAUL L. SMITH Suite 745 6 Campbell Center II 8150 North Central Expressway 7 Dallas, Texas 75206 8 NANCY ZETTLER 1405 West Norwell Lane 9 Schaumburg, Illinois 60193 10 IRVIN D. FOLEY Rubin, Hays & Foley 11 Third Floor South First Trust Centre 12 200 South Fifth Street Louisville, Kentucky 40202 13 14 FOR THE DEFENDANT: 15 EDWARD H. STOPHER Boehl, Stopher & Graves 16 2300 Providian Center Louisville, Kentucky 40202 17 JOE C. FREEMAN, JR. 18 LAWRENCE J. MYERS Freeman & Hawkins 19 4000 One Peachtree Center 303 Peachtree Street, N.E. 20 Atlanta, Georgia 30308 21 ALSO PRESENT: 22 DR. W. LEIGH THOMPSON 23 24 25 4 1 The Transcript of the Proceedings, taken before 2 The Honorable John Potter in the Multipurpose Courtroom, Old 3 Jail Office Building, Louisville, Kentucky, commencing on 4 Tuesday, October 4, 1994, at approximately 9:30 A.M., said 5 proceedings occurred as follows: 6 7 * * * 8 9 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Myers, will you mark the big 10 diagram whatever plaintiffs' number you want it? What number 11 did you give it? Just make sure they're marked and everybody 12 is agreed that No. 165 can come in by agreement; is that all 13 right? 14 MR. SMITH: Yes. 15 SHERIFF CECIL: Jury is now entering. All 16 jurors are present, Court is now in session. 17 JUDGE POTTER: Please be seated. Ladies and 18 gentlemen of the jury, let me state one or two things. I'm 19 going to remind you again of my admonition about talking about 20 this case with anyone or letting anybody communicate with you. 21 Mr. Bailey, have you had any problems with the admonition? 22 JUROR BAILEY: No, sir. 23 JUDGE POTTER: I also want to expand it a little 24 bit. You should not only avoid reading something about this 25 trial but avoid anything -- you know, articles on Prozac or 5 1 drugs or antidepressants. You understand what I'm saying? 2 You're going to have a lot of testimony here and you're 3 supposed to decide on what goes on here and not, you know, 4 some research you've done, or you might not even realize 5 you're doing research, but if you're reading some magazine 6 article, I don't know. They range all the way from cover 7 articles with baby with three heads, man from Mars, those type 8 magazines up to -- or reputable magazines. All right. So, 9 you know, don't read that. 10 Also, your notes are yours. They'll be 11 collected every day, kept, you know, segregated and returned 12 to you, and you would be able to take them to the jury room 13 with you. The exhibits probably won't be handled that way, 14 okay, because first of all you've got a little folder right 15 now and if we just added to them throughout the trial, you'd 16 each be sitting there with a box in your lap. So those may be 17 collected up, and, so, when you're taking notes don't write on 18 your exhibits. You could lose those. You know the difference 19 between -- the exhibits were the samples of things you were 20 given. 21 I want to emphasize, however, that when you go 22 to the jury room you will have the exhibits that were 23 introduced here at trial. So you don't have to memorize them. 24 It's just a mechanical thing of -- or at least the estimation 25 is that if we let you keep them all, you know, you would -- 6 1 each of you would just have a huge box in your lap by the end 2 of the trial. So what we may do and we really haven't thought 3 it through, the attorneys or myself, is collect those exhibits 4 back from you periodically and let you have new exhibits as 5 the trial goes along, and if they become relevant again 6 somebody may give them back to you during another part of the 7 trial. 8 JUROR HIGGS: I've made quite a few notations on 9 my notes already. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Just one or two pages? 11 JUROR HIGGS: Well, just the pages that were 12 pertinent to me. 13 JUDGE POTTER: I tell you what, at this stage 14 why don't you tear those pages out of your notes, stick them 15 in your notebook and we'll go from there. And you've done the 16 same thing, Mr. Bailey? 17 JUROR BAILEY: I wanted to ask, when we retire 18 at the end of this trial to deliberate, will the record that 19 she is keeping be available to us that we can read? 20 JUDGE POTTER: No, sir. Let me correct that. 21 It would be available to you, but what we would do is bring 22 you back into the courtroom and read a requested portion of 23 it. It would not be given to you as a book, you know, to take 24 back there and read at your leisure. Okay. So your question 25 is yes and no. It is available to you, but it's available to 7 1 you in a very specific way. And let me just say, I suspect 2 when you go back there to deliberate with the 11 or 12 -- you 3 and 11 others or the 12 will not want that record because 4 of -- just by the nature of things, it's going to be repeated 5 several times, and there will be 12 of you to remember it and 6 you won't have any problems. I could be wrong, but that's my 7 guess at this point. Any other comments about that? Has 8 anybody else written -- and it would have been the natural 9 thing to do. 10 JUROR DAVIS-SPALDING: (Raises hand). 11 JUDGE POTTER: Just tear those pages out and you 12 can either throw them away, transfer them to your other 13 notebook or just stick those pages in your regular notebook. 14 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith, do you want to call 15 your next witness? 16 MR. SMITH: Yes, Your Honor. We call at this 17 time Forrest Conrad. 18 19 FORREST CONRAD, after first being duly sworn, 20 was examined and testified as follows: 21 22 JUDGE POTTER: Please have a seat there, sir, 23 keep your voice up, and would you state your name loudly and 24 clearly for the jury. 25 MR. CONRAD: Forrest Conrad. 8 1 EXAMINATION ___________ 2 3 BY_MR._SMITH: __ ___ ______ 4 Q. How old a man are you, Mr. Conrad? 5 A. I'm 54 years old. 6 Q. Where do you live? 7 A. I live at 6285 Deer Trace, Lanesville, Indiana. 8 Q. Does anybody live there with you at that 9 location? 10 A. My wife. 11 Q. Do you have children, Mr. Conrad? 12 A. Yes, I do. 13 Q. Can you give me their ages, please? 14 A. My son is named Jeffrey Trent Conrad and his age 15 is 34. And my daughter is Penny Lynn Base and her age is 31. 16 Q. And they're gone -- grown and gone away from 17 home? 18 A. Yes. They have their own residence. 19 Q. Do you work outside the home now, Mr. Conrad? 20 A. Yes, I do. 21 Q. Where do you work? 22 A. I work at the Ford Motor Company. 23 Q. And how long have you worked at Ford Motor 24 Company? 25 A. Approximately a year and four months. 9 1 Q. Before that, where did you work, sir? 2 A. I worked at the Christian Church Campus of 3 Louisville. 4 Q. Doing what? 5 A. I was head of their maintenance. 6 Q. And before that? 7 A. I was unemployed and then I worked at Standard 8 Gravure. 9 Q. When did you begin working for Standard Gravure, 10 Mr. Conrad? 11 A. In November of 1986. 12 Q. And did you work there continuously until 13 September 14th, 1989? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Were you ever able to return to work after you 16 were shot, Mr. Conrad? 17 A. Yes, I did. 18 Q. And when did you return to work? 19 A. Ten and a half weeks later in December. 20 Q. And then how long was it before you went to -- 21 how long did you continue to work at Standard Gravure? 22 A. I worked there till June the 14th, 1991. 23 Q. And was that when they closed their operation 24 there? 25 A. Yes. Well, they closed in February, but I was 10 1 asked to stay on. 2 Q. For what purpose, sir? 3 A. To take care of the chillers and the air 4 handlers and the boilers. 5 Q. Dismantling the equipment? 6 A. Not dismantling, to make sure the building is 7 kept heated while they're in the process of selling it, or 8 cooling it. 9 Q. What was your job at Standard Gravure, Mr. 10 Conrad? 11 A. I was hired as a pipe fitter, and then in '90, I 12 was promoted to what they call a working plant foreman in 13 maintenance. 14 Q. Tell the jury what that entails. 15 A. I was over the pipe fitter, the operators and 16 the boilers and that equipment and the janitors. 17 Q. Was that basically a maintenance of the physical 18 equipment there in the premises at Standard Gravure? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. Did your department have anything to do with 21 maintenance of the presses themselves? 22 A. Yes, sir. My pipe fitter did, yes. 23 Q. Who did you report to? 24 A. Pat Quickert -- no. Not that -- I reported to 25 Tom Galt. 11 1 Q. Tom Galt? 2 A. Yes. G-A-L-T. 3 Q. And what was Mr. Galt's position? 4 A. He was the plant manager. 5 Q. And how many people did you have under you, Mr. 6 Conrad? 7 A. Eight. 8 Q. What was your normal workday? 9 A. During this job as a plant foreman I worked 10 between seven and three o'clock. 11 Q. Had Mr. Shea already taken over the Standard 12 Gravure plant by the time you were employed? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. What was your job immediately before joining 15 Standard Gravure? 16 A. I was a pipe fitter for The Courier-Journal. 17 Q. And how long had you been with The 18 Courier-Journal? 19 A. Since October of '79. 20 Q. Tell the jury generally what a pipefitter does. 21 A. Pipe fitter repairs all your air, hydraulic, 22 water, steam, condensate lines in your building. Also, the 23 pipe fitter at The Courier and Standard, they took care of 24 your chillers, your boilers, your air handlers and that 25 effect. 12 1 Q. Did you like your job at Standard Gravure, Mr. 2 Conrad? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. Why? 5 A. It's what I done most of my life and it was 6 enjoyable to work at. 7 Q. Did you ever feel any threats or have any fear 8 of violence before September 14th, 1989? 9 A. No, sir. 10 Q. Had you ever seen any fights there on the 11 premises? 12 A. No, sir. 13 Q. Had you ever seen any guns there on the 14 premises? 15 A. No, sir. 16 Q. Do you know whether there was a policy in 17 connection with guns on the premises? 18 A. I have seen a handbook or a hand paper given out 19 about guns, yes. 20 Q. And what was the policy in connection with guns 21 on the premises? 22 A. That you could be dismissed if they caught you 23 with firearms. 24 Q. Did you know of anybody that would bring 25 firearms on the premises? 13 1 A. No, sir; I do not. 2 Q. Were you aware, Mr. Conrad, that there was a 3 period of time when some of the employees were bringing 4 firearms into the premises for purposes of trading and 5 collecting firearms? 6 A. No, sir; I wasn't aware of that. 7 Q. You had not heard about any exchanges between 8 gentlemen there that might have been collectors of firearms? 9 A. Not as I can recall; no, sir. 10 Q. Before September 14th, 1989, are you aware of 11 any discharge because of firearms on the premises? 12 A. No, sir. 13 Q. On September 14th, 1989, did you arrive on the 14 premises at your appointed hour at seven A.M.? 15 A. No, sir. I was working at eight to four. 16 Q. What time did you arrive there that morning on 17 September 14th? 18 A. Approximately around 7:30. 19 Q. Okay. What did you do once you got to the 20 premises? 21 A. I usually go down to my locker room and change 22 my street clothes into my uniform and go to the maintenance 23 shop there in the basement. 24 Q. When you say uniform, did you have a specific 25 uniform that you wore? 14 1 A. Yeah. We had a -- I'll take that back, sir. It 2 was a uniform that I bought that I wore so that I wouldn't get 3 my street clothes dirty. 4 Q. Was it just work clothes that were uniform-type 5 basis? 6 A. Yes, sir. Work clothes. Yes. 7 Q. So what did you do after you changed in your 8 uniform, Mr. Conrad? 9 A. I would go to the maintenance shop where Mr. 10 Quickert was at, which was my boss at that time. 11 Q. And tell me what you did there. 12 A. I was a pipe fitter. 13 Q. What specifically did you do that morning before 14 the shooting? 15 A. Oh, that morning. Mr. Quickert that morning 16 told us about a valve that was leaking up on No. 3 air handler 17 and that when we make our rounds to repair that if we could. 18 Q. You say "told us," was there anybody with you? 19 A. James Husband. 20 Q. How long did that meeting take with your 21 supervisor? 22 A. Five, ten minutes at the most. 23 Q. So what did you do next? 24 A. Well, at 8:00, why, that's when we start to work 25 and we rode the No. 15 elevator to the fourth floor. 15 1 Q. And what did you do there? 2 A. There's four air handlers in there, and we 3 checked the air handlers and then went to the valve and 4 repaired the water valve that feeds the spray pond that was 5 leaking out of the packing, and we tightened the packing down. 6 Q. Is this part of the air-conditioning system? 7 A. Yes, sir. And the heating. 8 Q. Go ahead. 9 A. And then we left that area and walked down the 10 stairs to the third floor. 11 Q. And the third floor is where you were shot? 12 A. Yes, sir. As we walked through the -- we walked 13 through the Area Two old bindery into the middle bindery there 14 where the stitchers were at. 15 Q. All right. We have a diagram of the third 16 floor. I wonder, Mr. Conrad, if you could come down and show 17 the jury on this diagram where you were and what you were 18 doing at the time. 19 We may have to get you to work on this since you 20 were in maintenance, Mr. Conrad. All right. Do you recognize 21 Defense Exhibit 165 as being a schematic drawing of the third 22 floor there at the Standard Gravure premises? 23 A. Uh-huh. 24 Q. You need to give an audible answer. 25 A. Yes, sir. I'm sorry. 16 1 Q. Where was it that you got onto the third floor, 2 sir? 3 A. Back here there's a set of stairs that come in 4 right here, and we come down from the fourth floor on this set 5 of stairs. 6 Q. Why don't you stand over there so that we won't 7 be blocking. 8 A. Okay. And then James and I walked this way. 9 Q. James Husband? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. What were you going to do on the third floor? 12 A. Nothing. We're walking through the third floor 13 to go to The Courier-Journal to take a set of stairs up to the 14 fifth floor, the roof of the fifth floor. What they do, that 15 was our solvent recovery system and we had PM work to do there 16 every morning, and we were walking through to go to there. 17 Q. All right. So you got off the No. 15 elevator? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. What type of elevator is that? 20 A. That's a freight elevator. No. No. No. See, 21 I come down the steps from the fourth floor. We walked the 22 steps down from the fourth floor to the third floor. 23 Q. Okay. And that was adjacent to the No. 15 24 freight elevator? 25 A. Yes. That's right beside the No. 15 elevator. 17 1 Q. Then trace your path for the jury, Mr. Conrad. 2 A. We walked through here right up -- 3 Q. Is this the bindery area? 4 A. Yes. That's the middle bindery area. And we 5 were -- walked into this area right here. And we were 6 walking. He was on my right about a foot away. 7 Q. Mr. Husband was? 8 A. Yes. And while we were walking right here, Mr. 9 Stein was in this area here, right here. And he come up here 10 a little quickly and ran to the front of this elevator. 11 Q. Did you recognize Mr. Stein at that time? Did 12 you know Mr. Stein? 13 A. Yes. Yes, I did. And as he got there, the 14 elevator doors were down just a little bit, not a whole lot, 15 and they flew open; and when it did, the guy shot and shot him 16 straight in the head. And I thought -- the immediate thing 17 that hit my mind, I thought, "Boy, that was a terrible trick." 18 And John -- 19 Q. Did you see the man on the elevator from where 20 you were? 21 A. Yes. I just saw him at a glance at that time. 22 Q. All right. Did you know Joseph Wesbecker? 23 A. I knew his face, but I did not know his name. 24 Q. Did you recognize him? 25 A. At that point, I didn't recognize him all the 18 1 way, no. 2 Q. Okay. Go ahead. 3 A. And James turned away from me to the back of me 4 real quick, and then the gun went pop, pop, pop and Mr. 5 Husband fell back in behind me in this direction and I fell -- 6 I didn't fall, it shoved me over into a post. 7 Q. Where would the post have been? 8 A. About in here. 9 Q. Let me see, I think we have a blowup, Mr. 10 Conrad, of the area a little closer. 11 Your Honor, it's been marked as Exhibit 166. 12 Can you identify this, Mr. Conrad, as being a 13 blowup of the area depicting the No. 9 elevator, the middle 14 bindery area and where you were? 15 A. It would be this post right here, and Mr. 16 Husband went in here. There was a big row of pallets right 17 here, and he went into there. 18 Q. At this time, Your Honor, we would offer the 19 blowup and request permission to pass this to the jury. 20 JUDGE POTTER: Hand it to my sheriff and she'll 21 hand it to the jury. I think 165 is already into evidence by 22 agreement. 23 Q. Now, can you identify for us, Mr. Conrad, where 24 that blowup would be in connection with this? 25 A. It would be in this area -- this blowup here 19 1 shows -- this area right here. 2 Q. Now, on this Exhibit 165, there's the name 3 Husband and Conrad and there's arrows pointing right there, 4 but is it your testimony -- 5 A. It's over here. 6 Q. From over here in this post area could you see 7 into the No. 9 elevator? 8 A. Yes, sir; I could. 9 Q. And tell the jury again what caused you to look 10 back toward the No. 9 elevator. 11 A. When I -- I kind of crunched into the post. I 12 looked up. And when I looked up, I could see that whole 13 elevator there and he -- after he got done shooting he brought 14 the gun down to his right leg like this and held it. That's 15 when I saw what the gun was and I could see his whole body 16 then. When he looked out toward us, he looked like he was in 17 another world. He like -- he looked through us. There was no 18 eye contact or nothing. It was just like he turned the gun 19 and shot. 20 Q. Could you see his eyes from where you were? 21 A. Not real good. 22 Q. What makes you think he looked like he was in 23 another world? 24 A. His face just looked just like he wasn't there. 25 It was, like, puffy like. It was just not -- he just looked 20 1 through us. 2 Q. Let's back up a little bit. You were first 3 called to the attention by Mr. Stein walking toward the No. 9 4 elevator? 5 A. Yeah. We observed him quickly going to the 6 elevator. 7 Q. Tell the jury what happened as you followed Mr. 8 Stein going out toward the elevator. 9 A. He went to the elevator, and when he got there 10 the doors were down like eight or ten inches. It's an 11 elevator -- it's a small passenger elevator and you have to 12 hold the button in to close the doors. If you don't hold the 13 button in, it won't close the door. And the minute he took 14 his finger when John come up to the elevator, he let his hand 15 off and the doors opened back up, and when he did, he just 16 brought the gun up and shot him. 17 Q. Where did he shoot him? 18 A. Right straight in the head. 19 Q. How far was Joseph Wesbecker from John Stein 20 when he shot him? 21 A. I'd say the distance between -- like from 22 between me and you. About that distance. It's real -- he was 23 real close. 24 Q. In relationship to -- let's pretend I'm Mr. 25 Wesbecker and you're Mr. Stein. Where would you have been? 21 1 Would you have been back this way? 2 A. I was approximately 25 feet off of -- it would 3 have been the right-hand side of the elevator if you're inside 4 the elevator facing out. 5 Q. In this direction? 6 A. In that direction about 25 feet. 7 Q. What happened when Mr. Wesbecker shot Mr. Stein? 8 A. He immediately hit the floor. 9 Q. Then what happened? 10 A. Then he turned the gun on us and shot us. With 11 one hand. 12 Q. Who was shot first? 13 A. John was shot first. 14 Q. Did he pick up the gun and aim at you? 15 A. No. He done it with one hand. He done one hand 16 and picked it up like this and shot like that. 17 Q. What did Mr. Husband do? 18 A. He made a noise, and that's all I knew. 19 Q. And what did you do when you were shot? 20 A. I went into the post and I kind of crunched a 21 little bit, and I looked down and I saw blood on my shoes and 22 I looked back up, and that's when I saw him close the 23 elevators and disappear. 24 Q. Do you know if there was any more shots than the 25 one shot directly into Mr. Stein and the two shots that hit 22 1 you and Mr. Husband? Do you recall hearing more than three 2 pops? 3 A. That, I don't know. I don't -- there could have 4 been another one; I just don't know. 5 Q. Okay. So once the elevators closed, what did 6 you do? 7 A. There was a black guy over here -- what we 8 called a stack where they brought the books in and they band 9 them with metal bands. He come running over -- I didn't know 10 he was there until he come running over to me and I was there 11 at this post. He said, "What happened?" I think he called me 12 by name. I'm not for sure on that. 13 Q. Did you know him, Forrest? 14 A. I knew his face, but I didn't know his name. 15 Q. Do you know his name today? 16 A. No, I don't. And he said, "What's wrong?" And 17 I said, "I think we've been shot." And he ran to get help 18 down this hallway right through here. And then I crawled over 19 in front of this -- there was a desk here and I crawled right 20 there. And I laid there and I figured -- I tried to see Buck 21 and all I could see on him was through the pallets. I saw 22 about a foot and a half of his leg of his trousers. And I 23 looked at John and he was bleeding from his head pretty bad, 24 and I thought, "This is it." And I said a prayer and laid 25 there, and it seemed forever, and I thought sure that nobody 23 1 would be left here. And I don't know when it was, but there 2 was a policeman or somebody come with a pistol, it looked like 3 a cannon to me, knelt down in the doorways and he said, "Where 4 did he go?" 5 Q. Which doorway? 6 A. Right here. 7 Q. Did he come, Forrest, from this way? 8 A. I do not know where he came; I do not have the 9 slightest idea. All I know is he showed up. 10 Q. After you were shot and after the elevator went 11 down, did you hear any more shots? 12 A. No, sir; I did not. 13 Q. And this gentleman from the bindery area came 14 over and then he ran this way to get help? 15 A. Toward The Courier-Journal. 16 Q. Did you ever see him again? 17 A. Not as I can remember; no, sir. 18 Q. How much time elapsed, Forrest, between the time 19 that you were shot and the policeman came up? 20 A. I do not know. It seems a long time to me, but 21 it probably was a short time. I do not know. 22 Q. Did anybody else come up there other than the 23 man that had been over here in the bindery area? 24 A. Before the policeman? 25 Q. Yes, sir. 24 1 A. No, sir. 2 Q. Were you aware whether or not there were any 3 other people in the bindery area? 4 A. I didn't see anybody. No. 5 Q. Did you hear anybody? 6 A. No, sir. 7 Q. Did you ever talk to Buck Husband? 8 A. No, sir. 9 Q. Did he ever say anything? 10 A. No, sir. 11 Q. Okay. Then what happened after the policeman 12 came? 13 A. He asked, "Where did he go?" I said, "He went 14 down that elevator." About that time two ladies was walking 15 here, and he screamed at them. He told them, "Get over here." 16 And they ran toward him, and he told them to get rags for 17 John's head. And about that time, then, an engineer named 18 Jeff Hammond -- and I can't remember; there was some other 19 people there, but it seemed like -- I don't know. There was 20 some other people with him, but Mr. Hammond came over to me. 21 And along about that time when this was all going on, I guess 22 it was the EMS, I don't know, they come and they was started 23 toward John, and Mr. Hammond put a -- tied a rag around this 24 leg here, and I thought, "Well, that's a good idea. I'll tie 25 one around the other leg." 25 1 Q. You were shot in both legs? 2 A. Yes, sir. And I tied one on there. And then I 3 saw them work with John and pick him up and take him out. And 4 then a few minutes later they come back to me and they was 5 getting ready to come to me, and I said, "If you don't mind, I 6 feel pretty good," I said, "Go to Buck." And that's when Mr. 7 Hammond told me, he said, "I don't think we can help Buck." 8 Well, they put me kind of on a stretcher, and 9 I'm a little bit heavier than what I look and they kind of put 10 me back down. And during this time, I heard a policeman or 11 somebody said that they saw Buck move. So I thought in my 12 mind, "Well, maybe they're wrong." And they picked me up and 13 took me to this No. 10 elevator there and they tried to get it 14 to come up and it wouldn't come up at that time. So I told 15 them, "Go down to this other elevator here," -- it's No. 15 -- 16 and I said, "I'm pretty sure that will work." So we went down 17 this, and from then on they took me down the elevator and put 18 me in an ambulance and took me to the hospital. 19 Q. All right. Why don't you take the stand again, 20 Forrest. Before September 14th, Mr. Conrad, had you ever had 21 any discussions with Joseph Wesbecker? 22 A. When we were still owned by the Binghams, and I 23 don't even know the day or anything, the only reason I can 24 remember it, I remember the man's face, he was younger then, 25 and our shop was where our maintenance shop is, our pipe 26 1 fitter's shop for The Courier was where the maintenance shop 2 for Standard was. And for some fate we walked out -- I walked 3 out of that door and he happened to go up on -- it's a ramp, a 4 tunnel in the basement that connected The Courier and the 5 Standard Gravure building together. And it's like an incline 6 there. And we walked up that incline that day and he 7 discussed something -- I can't even remember. It was payday 8 or something, but he discussed that they was taking too many 9 taxes out on him or into that effect. I don't really recall 10 the conversation. He just made a remark that it seemed like 11 we was paying too much taxes. And we got to the top of the 12 tunnel, which it couldn't have been five minutes at the most, 13 he left and I went on my job that day, whatever it was. And 14 that's the only time I ever spoke to the man. 15 Q. Was this an agitated or threatening 16 conversation? 17 A. No, it wasn't. 18 Q. Did you disagree with him? Were you satisfied 19 with the amount of taxes you were paying, Mr. Conrad? 20 A. I don't remember whether I made a remark to that 21 extent or not. I probably just agreed with him and went on. 22 Q. Had you ever heard anything before September 23 14th, 1989, in connection with any threats that anybody might 24 have made concerning the premises there at Standard Gravure? 25 A. I heard two pressmen in Area One one time, I 27 1 just walked up on the conversation. They made a remark that 2 somebody said that they was going to come in and straighten 3 the place out. I don't even recall the pressmen, I don't 4 remember who they were. I just remember it was a passing 5 thing, it was quick. I asked the name, they gave me a name. 6 I did not recognize the name, so I went on. 7 Q. Could it have been Joseph Wesbecker? 8 A. It could have. I do not know. 9 Q. Could it have been somebody else? 10 A. It could have. I do not know. I don't 11 remember. 12 Q. Can you remember when in time this was, Forrest? 13 A. No, sir; I cannot. 14 Q. Did this cause fear for you? 15 A. No, sir. 16 Q. Why? 17 A. I'm 54 years old and I worked for three 18 different places, and I've heard threats in all of them and 19 nothing ever happened. 20 Q. Was the premises at Standard Gravure any more 21 threatening than any other place you ever worked at? 22 A. No, sir. 23 Q. Did you feel that this threat that you heard 24 about, from whomever it was, was some real threat that you 25 would have reported to the supervisors or somebody in 28 1 security? 2 A. No, sir; I wouldn't. No, sir. 3 Q. Why didn't you? 4 A. I felt like people's made remarks like that 5 before. There's nothing to it. 6 Q. Did Joseph Wesbecker look at you when he shot 7 you? 8 A. It happened so quick, he looked in our direction 9 but not directly at me; no, sir. 10 Q. Can you describe to the jury the look on his 11 face or his appearance in any way? 12 A. Like I said, he was heavier than what he was 13 when I had met him, talked to him before, years before. He 14 just -- he just -- he looked like he was in another world. He 15 just looked like he wasn't there. He just looked past us. He 16 didn't look directly at you or anything like that. He just up 17 and shot. 18 Q. Were you able to move as you laid there on the 19 floor there by the post? 20 A. Yes, sir; I could. 21 Q. Did you move any? 22 A. Not a whole lot, no, sir; I did not. 23 Q. What did you do during that time? 24 A. I just laid there and figured it was it. 25 Figured that at any time I would die. 29 1 Q. Did you have any fear of the gunman coming back 2 up on the elevator? 3 A. No, sir; I did not. 4 Q. Thank you, Mr. Conrad. 5 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher? 6 7 EXAMINATION ___________ 8 9 BY_MR._STOPHER: __ ___ ________ 10 Q. Mr. Conrad, I just have a few questions for you, 11 sir. Let me, if I might, hand to you another drawing of the 12 third floor, and there are some drawings behind it. It's been 13 marked as Defendant's Exhibit 163, sir. Let me hand this to 14 you. Your Honor, I have a copy of these for each of the 15 jurors, if that's permissible. 16 SHERIFF CECIL: (Hands out documents). 17 Q. Let me turn this, Mr. Conrad, so -- can you see 18 that well enough, sir? 19 A. Yes, sir; I can. 20 Q. What I'm going to show is exactly what you have 21 in front of you. All right, sir? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. Let me try to get some orientation here, if I 24 might, from you. Do you recognize this, sir, as a schematic 25 drawing of the third floor area, sir? 30 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. All right. I'm showing on the television screen 3 now, sir, a portion of this drawing, and it says, "Third-floor 4 reception area." Do you see that, sir? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. And do you see the rectangle there with the X in 7 it, or the square with the X in it? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. And would you tell us what that represents, sir? 10 A. That's the elevator that goes to the Sixth 11 Street side. 12 Q. All right. If you come in on the Sixth Street 13 entrance through that door, you can take this elevator up to 14 the reception area? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. Mr. Conrad, to the right of that, do you see 17 those lines there, sir? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. Would you tell us what that is, please? 20 A. That's your stairs that goes from the basement 21 all the way to the fourth floor, and that's your stairs that 22 goes to your third-floor reception area. 23 Q. And is there a door that connects that stairwell 24 into the reception area? 25 A. Yes, sir. 31 1 Q. And then drawn on here is a receptionist's desk. 2 Do you see that, sir? 3 A. Uh-huh. Yes, sir. 4 Q. And then a door behind that? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. And then immediately behind that door is a 7 rectangle marked Mike Shea's Office. Do you see that, sir? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. Is that accurate, sir? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. And then going down that hallway, do you see 12 this little area right in there? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. Would you tell us what that is? 15 A. That was an area that had a sink and -- for Mike 16 Shea's office in that area. 17 Q. Kind of like a little kitchenette-type area, 18 sir? 19 A. Yes, sir. It was a kitchenette; yes, sir. 20 Q. All right, sir. And then continuing on down the 21 hallway, sir, on the right past the kitchenette there's an 22 area marked Conference Room; is that accurate, sir? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. And then continuing on down the hallway there's 25 an area to the right, Second Conference Room, previously Don 32 1 McCall's Office. Do you see that, sir? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. Is that accurate, also? 4 A. At that time; yes sir. 5 Q. At the time of the shootings on September 14, 6 1989? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. Then continuing on down the hallway, sir, on the 9 left-hand side there is a door. Do you know where that door 10 leads, sir? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. And where does it lead? 13 A. Into the personnel office. 14 Q. Would that be the human relations office or 15 personnel office occupied by Paula Warman and her staff? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. All right. And then part of the personnel 18 office includes an office for Paula Warman alone; is that 19 accurate, sir? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. And then across the hall from Paula Warman's 22 office was Don McCall's office; am I right about that, sir? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. And then if I understand correctly, sir, there 25 were two doors right at the end of that hallway that led into 33 1 a large area called the middle bindery; is that generally 2 correct, sir? 3 A. Yes, sir. There were two doors. 4 Q. All right. Now, if I understand correctly 5 again, sir, from you today, the elevator that you were talking 6 about was the No. 9 elevator right here; am I accurate about 7 that, sir? 8 A. Yes, sir. That's correct. 9 Q. And if I understand correctly from what you're 10 saying today, if someone stood in the doorway of that 11 elevator -- at that time, at least -- they could look out and 12 have a line of sight into that direction toward that column; 13 is that accurate, sir? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. The line drawn in here at least was not an 16 impediment to vision or didn't block vision from this door 17 over to that column; is that accurate, sir? 18 A. No, sir; it did not. 19 Q. It was a wide-open area at that time? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. Mr. Conrad, on that topic, let me show you a few 22 photographs, sir, and if you can't see these, sir, would you 23 let me know and I'll work it out so that you can? Let me 24 first of all put one on the screen that's Defendant's Exhibit 25 45, and let me get it acclimated here for you, sir. Do you 34 1 recognize, sir, what's generally shown in that photograph? 2 Does that look familiar to you? 3 A. (Reviews photograph). 4 Q. Let me see if I can help you, sir. 5 A. In other words, this here is -- that's coming -- 6 that's going -- the way it looks like, it's going up into the 7 personnel office. 8 Q. Actually, sir, it's just the opposite. It's 9 coming out of the hallway that goes down the administrative 10 offices to the double doors and it's looking into the bindery. 11 Does that look generally familiar to you, sir? 12 A. You're saying this is? 13 Q. Standing in the hallway. 14 A. The picture was taken standing in the hallway 15 looking toward the -- 16 Q. The bindery? 17 A. -- the bindery. 18 Q. Yes, sir. This is the door to the personnel 19 office? 20 A. Right. That's what I said. 21 Q. I'm sorry. Maybe I misunderstood you. 22 A. Yeah. That's what I meant. Yeah. 23 Q. This is the door to Mr. McCall's office? 24 A. Right. Uh-huh. 25 Q. And these are the double doors that lead out of 35 1 the offices into the bindery? 2 A. Yeah. Right. 3 Q. Were we squared away there, sir? 4 A. Yeah. Because there was a ramp there. That's 5 what I was recognizing. 6 Q. Now, sir, let me next show you a photograph 7 that's numbered Defendant's Exhibit 46. Do you recognize 8 that, sir? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. And is that the No. 9 elevator that you've 11 talked about earlier this morning? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. Now, if I understand correctly, sir, this 14 elevator operates when the person gets inside the elevator 15 they can push a button on the inside wall; correct? 16 A. Okay. Let's start out and I'll explain the 17 elevator to you. 18 Q. All right, sir. 19 A. That's what we call -- it is a small freight and 20 passenger elevator. If you walked up to that elevator and if 21 the doors were down and you would call for it or if it was 22 there with the doors down, when you hit the button that you 23 call for your floor, it would come up and the doors would open 24 automatically. 25 Q. You would push a button over here on this panel 36 1 on the wall, sir? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. All right. 4 A. After you got off, you could press a button and 5 close the doors and the elevator would stay there until you 6 call for any more. Now, if you got onto the elevator, you had 7 to hold the close button in to close the doors. It would not 8 close without doing that. 9 Q. Okay. Let me show you another photograph of the 10 inside of that elevator, which has been identified as 11 Defendant's Exhibit 47. Can you see that all right, sir? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. And apparently inside the wall of the elevator 14 there was a little panel with some buttons on it; correct, 15 sir? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. And in order to make the elevator work, if 18 someone got onto it they had to push the button and hold it 19 closed until the doors completely closed; am I right? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. Mr. Conrad, if I understand correctly, this 22 elevator closed with the door coming down from the top and at 23 the same time a door coming up from the bottom; am I right? 24 A. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. 25 Q. And if I understand correctly, those doors had 37 1 to close completely and remain closed for perhaps a fraction 2 of a second before the elevator would start moving; is that 3 accurate? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. Now, I think I understood you to say, sir, that 6 you saw Mr. Stein coming in a hurry toward this elevator? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. And was he coming from the left over here, sir? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. And did he come around and push the buttons or 11 do you not know? 12 A. I do not know that, sir. 13 Q. At the time that he appeared there in front of 14 that elevator, sir, how much of the doors were closed? 15 A. Eight to ten inches. 16 Q. In other words, I'm not sure what eight to ten 17 inches refers to. Had it moved up eight to ten inches out of 18 the floor? 19 A. Yes. It was a real short distance there. It 20 wasn't hardly come off the floor. It could have been five to 21 ten inches. 22 Q. In other words, the elevator doors had just 23 started to close? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. All right. Now, if I understand correctly, sir, 38 1 when Mr. Wesbecker was standing inside this elevator -- 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. -- you looked at him at that time; am I right, 4 sir? 5 A. What time are you talking about? Are you 6 talking about at the time John walked up there? 7 Q. Yes, sir. Or at the time that he had fired the 8 first shot. 9 A. I just took a quick glance. We looked in that 10 direction, or I did, and saw the gun come up and shoot. Yes, 11 I saw Mr. Wesbecker. 12 Q. And at that time, sir, if I understand 13 correctly, when you looked at Mr. Wesbecker he appeared calm? 14 A. Right. He wasn't agitated, no. 15 Q. He was under control, as far as you could tell 16 in looking at him? 17 A. It was like he just up and shot. He didn't 18 jump. He didn't do anything. He just up and shot. 19 Q. If I understand correctly, sir, at that point in 20 time, you were in an area that I believe is shown generally in 21 Defendant's Exhibit 48. Does that look about right, sir? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. And at that time, sir, you were with Mr. 24 Husband; am I accurate in that understanding? 25 A. Yes, sir. 39 1 Q. And I apologize, sir. I was unable to see when 2 you were pointing the direction in which you were walking. 3 You and Mr. Husband were walking together; am I right about 4 that? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. And were you walking from this direction toward 7 this direction or just the opposite? 8 A. We were walking the way you said at first. We 9 was walking from where that stitcher's at, in that area, 10 toward The Courier-Journal. 11 Q. All right. And am I correct, then, generally 12 you would have been walking toward the elevator? 13 A. In general, yes. 14 Q. And if I understand correctly, you and Mr. 15 Husband were walking generally toward the elevator when you 16 saw Mr. Stein -- 17 A. No, sir. 18 Q. No? All right. 19 A. The elevator is to my right. The elevator is at 20 an angle approximately 25 feet away. 21 Q. Okay. It's off to your right? 22 A. Off to my right, yes. 23 Q. You intended to walk to the left side of that 24 elevator? 25 A. Yes, sir. 40 1 Q. Okay. And when you were about 25 feet away, 2 that's when the approximately three shots were fired at you 3 and Mr. Husband? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. One hit Mr. Husband and two of those shots hit 6 you; am I correct, sir? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. Mr. Conrad, in connection with the instance 9 that -- the incident that you just mentioned a few moments ago 10 about two pressmen talking, if I understand you correctly, 11 sir, there was an instance prior to this shooting in which you 12 happened to come into a conversation between two pressmen. Am 13 I correct about that, sir? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. And you do not recall who the two pressmen were; 16 am I correct about that? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. Apparently they were talking in the reel room in 19 Area One; am I accurate about that? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. The reel room is a room down below the pressroom 22 in Area One; am I accurate about that, also? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. And if I understand correctly, you heard those 25 two men say that someone might come in with a gun, might come 41 1 back with a gun, and they gave you the name of that 2 individual; am I correct in my understanding of that, sir? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. Those are all the questions I have, Mr. Conrad. 5 I appreciate your patience with me, sir. 6 Your Honor, we would like to introduce the 7 drawing, which is Defendant's Exhibit 163, and the 8 photographs, which are Defendant's Exhibits 45, 46 and 47, if 9 the Court please. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Admitted. 11 Mr. Smith, any redirect? 12 MR. SMITH: Just briefly, Your Honor. 13 14 FURTHER_EXAMINATION _______ ___________ 15 16 BY_MR._SMITH: __ ___ ______ 17 Q. Mr. Conrad, there may be some photographs of 18 graffiti on the walls there at Standard Gravure where comments 19 were made in connection with Mr. Shea. Had you ever seen any 20 graffiti on any walls of any men's rooms or of the plant there 21 at all? 22 A. At the shooting? At the time of the shooting? 23 Q. Up to the time of the shooting. 24 A. Not as I'm aware of, no. 25 Q. Would your duties have required you to be in 42 1 these areas on a regular basis? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. And did you notice any before the shooting? 4 A. No, sir. 5 Q. How about afterwards? 6 A. On the last week of closing I think there was 7 something written on the Area One rest room, but I can't 8 recall what it was. 9 Q. But that was almost two years later after this 10 shooting? 11 A. Yes, sir. That was in '91, in February of '91. 12 Q. So I understand correctly, this conversation 13 that you heard about a potential person potentially coming 14 back, there wasn't any name identified in connection with 15 that, that you recall? 16 A. I couldn't recognize the name. They told me the 17 name, but I did not recognize it at all. 18 Q. And did you think anything about it at the time? 19 A. No, sir; I did not. 20 Q. Why? 21 A. I've heard threats before and nothing happened. 22 Q. You say you worked at The Courier-Journal before 23 you worked at Standard Gravure? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. For a number of years? 43 1 A. Seven. 2 Q. Were the working conditions any better or worse 3 at The Courier-Journal than that at Standard Gravure? 4 A. You mean at that time? 5 Q. Yes, sir. 6 A. They was about the same. As far as I know, it 7 was the same. 8 Q. Where did you work before you started with The 9 Courier-Journal? 10 A. I worked at Celanese Coating on Hill Street. 11 Q. How did the working conditions compare there 12 with The Courier-Journal or Standard Gravure? 13 A. Well, when I went to The Courier-Journal I got a 14 pay raise, so that's why I left. I worked 22 years at 15 Celanese. They were good conditions there. I've heard 16 threats there, but nothing ever did happen. 17 Q. Did you ever see any fights there at Standard 18 Gravure? 19 A. No, sir. No, sir. 20 Q. When you had this conversation with Mr. 21 Wesbecker about taxes, did Mr. Wesbecker appear to you to be 22 mentally ill? 23 A. No, sir. 24 Q. Crazy? 25 A. No, sir. 44 1 Q. Did he look the way then that he looked when he 2 had that AK-47 in his hand? 3 A. Then he was younger and he looked thinner. That 4 day he was heavier and, like I said, he just looked through 5 you. 6 Q. Beg your pardon? 7 A. He just looked through you. He just didn't look 8 like he was there. 9 Q. Thank you, Mr. Conrad. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much, sir. You 11 may step down. You're excused. 12 Mr. Smith, you want to call your next witness? 13 MR. SMITH: Yes, sir, Your Honor. At this time 14 we would call David Seidenfaden. 15 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Sir, would you step up 16 here and raise your right hand, please. 17 18 DAVID SEIDENFADEN, after first being duly sworn, 19 was examined and testified as follows: 20 21 JUDGE POTTER: Would you have a seat, keep your 22 voice up and state your first and last name loudly for the 23 jury, please, sir. 24 MR. SEIDENFADEN: My name is David Seidenfaden. 25 MR. SMITH: Were these exhibits that Mr. 45 1 Conrad -- were those the originals or were those just copies? 2 MR. STOPHER: Let me see them all. I'm sure 3 they're just copies. 4 MR. SMITH: Okay. 5 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Seidenfaden, can you move 6 that box on the other side of the microphone there? That's 7 the one that's picking you up. Is the light on on yours, Mr. 8 Smith there; I can't see from there? 9 MR. FREEMAN: Yes, it is on. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Freeman has better eyes than 11 I do. 12 13 EXAMINATION ___________ 14 15 BY_MR._SMITH: __ ___ ______ 16 Q. How old a man are you, Mr. Seidenfaden? 17 A. Forty-nine years old. 18 Q. Where do you live? 19 A. 4107 Winchester Road, St. Matthews. 20 Q. Is that a suburb of -- 21 A. It's an outskirt of Louisville. 22 Q. Who lives there with you, David? 23 A. My wife and my son. 24 Q. How old is your son? 25 A. Twenty-three years old. 46 1 Q. But he lives there at the house with you? 2 A. Yes, he does. 3 Q. What do you currently do for a living, sir? 4 A. I'm an electrician. I work for Marine Electric. 5 Q. When did you start working for Marine Electric? 6 A. I believe it was in 1977. 7 Q. Are you a journeyman electrician, sir? 8 A. Yes, I am. 9 Q. Are you a member of a union? 10 A. Yes, I am. 11 Q. And what is that union, sir? 12 A. It's Local No. 369 IBEW. 13 Q. And how long have you been a member of the IBEW? 14 A. Probably 25 years. 15 Q. Do you specialize in any type of electrical 16 work, sir? 17 A. As a journeyman wiring, you're required to do it 18 all. 19 Q. Does Marine Electric specialize in any 20 particular type of electrical contracting? 21 A. They do every phase of it. 22 Q. They'll do residential as well as commercial? 23 A. Probably but residential. 24 Q. Before September 14th, 1989, had Marine Electric 25 done any work at Standard Gravure or The Courier-Journal? 47 1 A. Yes, they had. 2 Q. How often had they done work there? 3 A. They were -- I think they were the original 4 people who wired both The Courier-Journal and the Standard 5 Gravure building, and they were in and out on numerous 6 occasions for updating-type things. 7 Q. Had you been at The Courier-Journal or Standard 8 Gravure before this accident occurred? 9 A. I had been there in and out on numerous 10 occasions since 19 -- probably '78, in and out. 11 Q. Would there have been a year that you weren't at 12 one of those premises? 13 A. Probably the year previous to this happening I 14 was there less than I had been for a long time. 15 Q. What would you say the maximum amount of time 16 that you were ever at the Standard Gravure plant was? 17 A. Probably in 1983 when -- I think it was '83 or 18 '84, whenever they put the new folders in in Area Two would 19 have been the longest period of time. Probably three months. 20 Q. Would you do any type of electrical work there 21 at Standard Gravure? 22 A. Well, mostly it was when they were modifying 23 something, it would be an installation-type work. They had 24 their own maintenance people to do the maintenance-type work. 25 Q. What was the job that you were working on in 48 1 September 1989? 2 A. As a result of a blowup they had in Area Two, 3 some DC controllers in the basement had become available when 4 they sold off the presses upstairs and they wanted to -- they 5 had a press line over in Area One that was controlled AC, 6 which is not a very good type of control for speed controls, 7 so they were wanting to modify that press line and use the 8 controllers from Area Two and DC motors to regulate the way 9 they operated that press line in Area One. 10 Q. When did you start on that job? 11 A. I believe it was about two weeks prior to the 12 incident. 13 Q. Up to that time, Mr. Seidenfaden, had you ever 14 had any problems with the work conditions there at Standard 15 Gravure? 16 A. None whatsoever. 17 Q. Had you had occasion to deal with the employees 18 of Standard Gravure in these regular times that you would come 19 on to do electrical subcontracting work? 20 A. Yes, I did. 21 Q. And how were you treated by them? 22 A. Fine. They always -- if I needed to do 23 something, they would back off. They would get out of my way 24 or they would ask me to wait a few minutes till they finished 25 what they were doing. I never had any problems. 49 1 Q. Did you have a feeling that there was an area or 2 an aura of hostility there? 3 A. I never felt it. I've always felt right at home 4 there. 5 Q. Did the pressmen appear to be cooperative and 6 happy with each other? 7 A. They were always pretty busy so, I mean, I never 8 saw anything like cutting up. I really couldn't tell. They 9 had their jobs to do. 10 Q. Have you ever been in other press facilities? 11 A. No, not really. That's about the only press 12 one. 13 Q. Can you give us a little more detail on what you 14 were doing that day on September 14th, 1989. 15 A. Well, Mr. Hatfield and I were teamed up, and 16 what we were doing, we were in the process of running what 17 they call a ladder tray or a cable tray from Area Two, the 18 basement, up through the tunnel that Mr. Conrad talked about 19 that had the gradual slope. We were running up through there 20 with cable tray over into the Area One pressroom area in order 21 to change the AC motors to DC motors that would pick their 22 feed up from Area Two, and also the controls for the motors 23 would be picked up from DC controllers in Area Two. That 24 particular day we were running the tray that we were going to 25 be pulling the cable through. 50 1 Q. So you were installing the housing in which the 2 cable was going to travel? 3 A. That is correct. 4 Q. And was that housing going to be installed 5 overhead or on the floor? 6 A. It was going to be installed overhead. That 7 particular day, we were trying to figure out our route -- the 8 head room in certain areas in Area One was very low and we was 9 trying to keep this as high as possible to keep people from 10 walking into it, and it was almost impossible, and that 11 particular day that's what we were working on. 12 Q. Had you been working with Mr. Hatfield 13 throughout this job? 14 A. I'd say the last -- the week before that 15 happened we were pretty much right together all day long. 16 Q. Were there other employees at Marine Electric 17 there with you in the area working on the premises? 18 A. There were three others. There was David 19 Reichelt, who was foreman, and Charles Knoop and Mike Stark, 20 and they were modifying the controls over in Area Two while 21 Stan and I were running the cable track. 22 Q. How about a Mr. Sallee? 23 A. Sallee worked -- Mr. Sallee worked for Standard 24 Gravure on a part-time basis. He was in the same area Stan 25 and I was. 51 1 Q. But he was not assisting you in your duties, 2 though? 3 A. No, he wasn't. 4 Q. Is this type of work, work that has to be done 5 by a journeyman electrician? 6 A. I couldn't see anybody else doing it, really. 7 It would pretty much take a journeyman electrician, probably 8 one with quite a bit of experience to do what we were doing. 9 Q. Why is that, sir? 10 A. It's something I hadn't ever seen before. It 11 took a lot of thought to figure mechanically how to get this 12 from one building to another, powered in one building to 13 another building and also the controls which had to go back -- 14 excuse me, had to go back and forth. 15 MR. SMITH: May I approach the Witness, Your 16 Honor? 17 JUDGE POTTER: Certainly. 18 Q. Why don't you come down, David, and see if you 19 can identify what's been marked as Defendant's Exhibit 165. 20 A. Yes, I do recognize it. 21 Q. Tell the jury what this is. 22 A. This is where Paul Sallee was working. Right in 23 this area is where we -- Stanley and I had set up a band saw 24 and tools for the work we were doing coming around this way 25 with that cable tray I had talked about. 52 1 Q. Can you identify the Defendant's Exhibit 166 as 2 being a blowup of the area that you were in? 3 A. Yes, it is. 4 MR. SMITH: At this time, Your Honor, we would 5 offer 166 and request permission to give the jurors copies of 6 the exhibit. 7 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Be admitted. 8 We've got several 166 floating around. Is it 9 going to be a three-pager? 10 MS. ZETTLER: It's going to be a group exhibit, 11 Judge. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. 13 Q. So as I understand it, you're in the basement 14 area? 15 A. That's correct. 16 Q. And this particular area, is it at the same 17 level as the Area One reel room or does this -- do you step up 18 to get from this basement area to where the reel room is? 19 A. Basically, it's the same level. There may be a 20 separate -- I don't think so. I think it's all the same 21 level, best I can remember. 22 Q. Is this a tunnel here between these two areas? 23 A. I always called it a tunnel; right. It is a 24 very narrow wall -- very narrow, just barely -- these I think 25 would be some of the paper they stacked in this tunnel, that's 53 1 what it looks like, and you barely have kind of a squeeze play 2 to get by when they stacked paper in that tunnel. 3 Q. And were you running the cable up in the top of 4 this cable, also? 5 A. No, we weren't. 6 Q. Where was the cable that you were running coming 7 from and going to? 8 A. It was coming from over here in Area Two. This 9 was an incline and it was running around this way and 10 coming -- I think we went -- I forget what we did. This is, I 11 think, a freight elevator. We either went in front or just 12 behind that to try to get up here. In this area here, the 13 headroom gets real low and there's a -- I forget what it's 14 called. There's a reel there that they use and it's a very 15 low headroom there. We were trying to get the cable tray 16 under that headroom and this is the path we were taking with 17 it, though, and then over in here. 18 Q. If you were going to be working in here, what 19 were you doing in here? 20 A. This was a very congested area, a lot of 21 movement with Standard Gravure employees. We asked for and 22 got permission to come back here to set up because the stuff 23 we was working with was very bulky, 10 foot to 12 foot 24 lengths, a cable tray, there just wasn't room to set up out 25 here to do that kind of work. We would set it up, do all our 54 1 prefab and then take it to that area to install it. 2 Q. So actually you were prefabbing here in the 3 basement area? 4 A. Right. That is correct. 5 Q. What time did you arrive there that morning? 6 A. I'm not sure if we were starting work at seven 7 or seven-thirty. I was normally twenty minutes before 8 starting time, so it was either twenty till seven or ten after 9 seven probably when I got there that day. 10 A. Can you describe to the jury generally briefly 11 what you did there, David, before you were shot? 12 A. That morning I was right here working. We had 13 run out of couplings for putting this cable tray together and 14 I was making up couplings out of other aluminum stock, cutting 15 and drilling it so we could keep this cable tray together to 16 keep the job moving. They hadn't ordered enough coupling. 17 Because of the path we had to take, there were different 18 elevations and we ran up couplings pretty quick. While I was 19 here, Stanley was back here taking measurements, so after 20 starting time I was in this area pretty much the whole time 21 working on the couplings. 22 Q. Did you hear any shots before you were shot, 23 David? 24 A. No, I didn't. No, I didn't. 25 Q. Do you know where Mr. Wesbecker came from? 55 1 A. At that time I didn't. I never did see him. 2 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Wesbecker before he shot 3 you? 4 A. No, I didn't. 5 Q. What were you doing when you were shot? 6 A. I was right here in this -- working with this 7 band saw. The weight of the band saw had to be held up 8 because when you cut aluminum with these fine teeth, it would 9 enclose the teeth if you didn't hold the weight off, and it 10 would just bind off and you couldn't cut through aluminum. I 11 was cutting through stacks of several pieces to speed things 12 up, so I would have to hold the weight up on them as I cut 13 them. I was bent over like this holding the weight of the 14 band saw up. 15 Q. Were you on your knees or were you just bent 16 over? 17 A. I was kind of just crunched over a little bit. 18 Q. What happened? 19 A. Mr. Sallee came out. We were -- we were 20 suspending this from the ceiling off of three-eights-inch rod 21 and we had a lot of short scrap pieces of rod, and Mr. Sallee 22 had come out and asked what we were going to do with it. And 23 I said I figured he did a lot of woodwork, and I said, "Well, 24 I'm going to tape them all together and they'll be right here 25 when you get ready to leave today." So we talked a few 56 1 minutes and he went back into his reel room -- I call it the 2 reel room. It was a lathe where they trued the surface of 3 rubber surfaces that the paper went over. 4 Q. David, why don't you come over on this side and 5 speak up a little bit. I think some of the jurors may have a 6 little trouble hearing you. Go ahead. 7 A. So I was right here. Mr. Sallee had gone back 8 into the grinder room and I continued on with what I was doing 9 with the couplings for the cable tray. 10 Q. Were you just out in the middle of an open area? 11 A. I was probably just in front of -- this would be 12 a column, a support column for the next floor up, and I was 13 probably this -- right in this area right in here. 14 Q. And when you say that Stanley Hatfield was with 15 you -- 16 A. Not when I talked to Paul. He came in just a 17 couple minutes after that. 18 Q. All right. What happened next? 19 A. Stanley walked in and he said, "I think I've got 20 a plan that's going to work as far as keeping this up as high 21 as we can get it." He had been up in the other area taking 22 measurements. And I think it was only a second or two after 23 that and things started happening. 24 Q. All right. What things happened? 25 A. I heard a pop and I lost my wind. I didn't know 57 1 what happened. I just thought something blew up. So I 2 grabbed my chest and I had this severe pain. I couldn't 3 breathe. And it took awhile, but later I remember I looked 4 over my shoulder and I'm sure I saw Wesbecker then. And I 5 thought to myself -- 6 Q. Keep your voice up. 7 A. -- I thought to myself, "Why are you just 8 standing there looking like that." I didn't see the gun; I 9 just saw his face. 10 Q. When you looked at his face what did his face 11 look like? 12 A. It was contorted. I'm not sure exactly -- 13 Q. It was what? 14 A. Contorted look on his face. Kind of a grimace 15 even. It's hard to explain. But I remember thinking, "Why 16 are you looking at me like this, I'm hurt. I need help." And 17 then I heard another pop and, with that, I turned to my right 18 away from the sound of the pop, which would have meant I would 19 have -- Wesbecker would have been maybe right here and I was 20 right here. I'd say he wasn't over two or three feet away 21 from me when he shot me. And I looked over this way when I 22 saw him, and then I heard another pop and I turned this way 23 and started walking towards this -- there's an elevator and 24 then there's a cage -- started walking towards this cage over 25 here. I think they kept plumbing fittings or something in 58 1 that cage. I walked over there and I heard a third pop and 2 then I laid down. I still didn't know what the pops were. I 3 thought something was blowing up. And I laid down, and I 4 looked over this way and I saw Stanley laying there. And I 5 looked up this way and I saw somebody standing in that 6 doorway, and I remember thinking to myself, "Go in and shut 7 the damn thing off. I thought maybe it was Paul's machine 8 that had gone berserk. 9 Q. You thought you were being hit with pieces of 10 machinery that had exploded? 11 A. That's correct. I had no idea what was going 12 on. 13 Q. When you turned and saw Mr. Wesbecker there, is 14 it your testimony you didn't see the gun in his hand? 15 A. I did not see the gun in his hand. I looked 16 straight in his face. 17 Q. And what was he doing when you -- how far away 18 from you was -- 19 A. I would say he was at most no further than you 20 are from me right now. 21 Q. And was he looking directly at you? 22 A. I felt like he was looking at -- he was facing 23 in my direction. There again, there wasn't any expression. 24 There wasn't any normal expression on his face, and it really 25 didn't look like he was looking at me. I think Forrest Conrad 59 1 said it about the only way you can say it. He was looking 2 past me. I don't know if he was looking at Stanley. 3 Q. Where would Stanley be in relation to you as you 4 and I are standing here, with me being Wesbecker? 5 A. Probably about the same distance as we are on 6 the other side of me, but I'm not real sure about that 7 anymore. 8 A. Would he have been behind you or to your side? 9 A. Probably to my side. As I faced him a little 10 bit -- he would have been a little bit this way. As I'm 11 standing here looking over my shoulder, Stanley probably would 12 have been this way just a touch, a little. 13 Q. Okay. Go ahead. 14 A. Well, I laid down over here and I saw a figure 15 standing in this opening where Mr. Sallee was working, and I 16 thought to myself, "Well, go in and shut it off." I heard 17 Paul mutter something before -- 18 Q. What? 19 A. He said, "Oh, my God, help me." 20 Q. Was this at the same time that this figure was 21 standing there? 22 A. Yes. Yes. 23 Q. Did you know at that time what had happened? 24 A. I thought he had been hit -- that's why I guess 25 I thought it was that machine that was doing it. I guess I 60 1 thought he had been hit by something off that machine. 2 Q. What did you do next? 3 A. Well, I don't remember what happened. I don't 4 remember seeing him leave that opening, Mr. Wesbecker, but the 5 next thing I know I'm asking Stanley if he's all right -- by 6 the way, the motor -- the band saw had clogged up and the 7 motor was smoking and Stanley was laying right next to that 8 band saw. And I asked Stanley several times if he was all 9 right. I told him I didn't think I was doing too good. 10 Q. Why did you say you didn't think you were doing 11 too good? 12 A. Because I still couldn't catch my breath. 13 Apparently there was enough in my other lung -- the bullet had 14 penetrated my lung and I couldn't get it inflated. 15 Q. Where were you shot? 16 A. He shot me below my shoulder blade in my back 17 and it went through my lung and liver and diaphragm and it 18 came out right in here through my chest. The pain from the -- 19 what the doctor told me was the diaphragm is the part that was 20 causing all the pain and, of course, that's what you use when 21 you breathe. 22 Q. So what happened next? 23 A. Stanley later told me that he didn't -- he 24 apparently was more aware of what was happening than I was and 25 he was just wanting me to quit talking to him. He was afraid 61 1 Mr. Wesbecker was going to come back. So in the meantime, 2 Stanley had unplugged the band saw. It was smoking. The 3 motor was smoking. 4 Q. Were you afraid of fire at that point? 5 A. I think he was. The motor was smoking on it 6 from where the blade had hung up and the belt was just 7 spinning, so it was smoking, and I think he was afraid it was 8 going to create another problem, and he unplugged it. 9 Q. So you're laying back here -- by the time Mr. 10 Wesbecker's gone, you're laying here against this cage area? 11 A. Cage. 12 Q. Mr. Hatfield is laying next to the band saw in 13 proximity to the -- sort of in the middle? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And Mr. Sallee is back -- 16 A. Never did -- 17 Q. You say you heard him say something but you 18 never saw him? 19 A. I never saw Paul after he bent back in there. 20 Q. But he was standing up at one point? 21 A. He almost always stood right here. He had his 22 headset on that was earmuffs to buffer, to quiet down. This 23 made a lot of noise, this grinder did. 24 Q. Was it on? 25 A. It was on. So he always had these -- in fact, 62 1 you'd have to tap him on the shoulder to let him know you were 2 here. I didn't want to startle him when I started up work out 3 here, so I let him know we were around. He always had that 4 headset on. He wouldn't know when you walked by out there. 5 So he never knew what was going on out there with us. 6 Q. I'm a little confused. Could you see into the 7 grindery area from where you were up at the cage? 8 A. I could see this way of it. Paul would have 9 been standing right here. That's where he always stood when 10 he operated the machine. 11 Q. I thought you said you saw him, though, at one 12 point. 13 A. Earlier he come out and asked me what we were 14 going to do with that scrap rod. I saw him at that point. 15 Q. But after the shooting did you ever see him 16 again? 17 A. No. I heard him, but I didn't see him. 18 Q. And what did you hear him say? 19 A. I heard him say, "Oh, my God, help me." 20 Q. After Mr. Hatfield got the band saw turned off, 21 what happened next? 22 A. Somebody came out this door and asked what was 23 going on. I think it was Joe White, but I'm not positive. I 24 didn't -- I was getting a little fuzzy at the time. I think I 25 was about to pass out. And I think Stanley said it first, "Go 63 1 call 911," and then I think I repeated it. And I'm not sure 2 if he went this way or that way. I really don't know. 3 Q. By this time had you realized that you were 4 shot? 5 A. No. I still didn't know. I just knew that we 6 were all hurt. 7 Q. Go ahead. 8 A. Later on, a policeman, I think he came through 9 this door, also, came out and he knelt down beside me. And I 10 still had my hand on there. I never did look. It's one of 11 those kind of hurts where you don't want to see what happened, 12 so my hand was still over that. And he pulled my hand off and 13 pulled my shirt up, and then he pulled my shirt back down and 14 put my hand back over it. And I said, "Am I going to make 15 it," and he just said, "Do you know what's happened," or 16 something like that. I said, "You need to get us out of 17 here." He said, "We can't right now; we don't know where he's 18 at." And that was my first inclination that it was something 19 other than a blowup. It wasn't registering that I had been 20 shot, but I knew they were looking for somebody. And then I 21 heard on his radio where they had found him in the break room 22 or outside the break room, that he had killed -- Joe Wesbecker 23 had killed himself out there. 24 After he pulled my shirt up and back down he 25 went over and examined Stanley. And then another policeman 64 1 came. And after they heard that, they were looking for some 2 way to get us out of there. And I heard them, they went back 3 to see Paul and they said, "We can't help him." And then 4 they -- they found a piece of crating, a board, and they 5 said -- apparently Stanley's exit wound was pretty nasty. 6 They said, "Let's get this man first. He looks like he needs 7 attention fast." So I think they took Stanley out first. 8 They came back with that same board and put me on it, and they 9 took us out up through these steps to this area out here, 10 which was a kind of a loading and unloading area under the 11 bindery area of Standard Gravure. 12 Q. Do you have any idea how much time elapsed from 13 the time that you were shot, David, until the time that they 14 picked you up and put you on that board and took you out? 15 A. I would guess not more than -- it seemed like a 16 long time, but not more than 10 or 15 minutes at the most, I 17 would think. 18 Q. Did you ever hear any more shots after the three 19 shots that were fired in your proximity? 20 A. Three is all I heard. 21 Q. Was the policeman -- did the policeman seem to 22 be scared when he came to you? 23 A. I think it was a SWAT -- it seemed to me like he 24 had one of those flight jackets and, yes, he was scared. I 25 heard him say something about a bag full of ammo. Apparently 65 1 he had left that somewhere near here as he went through here. 2 I think it might have been in the stairwell, but I'm not 3 positive. So they felt like there was a good chance he was 4 going to come back this way, so they couldn't move us. That's 5 what he said, "We can't move you; we don't know where he's 6 at." It seems like I remember him saying there was a bag of 7 ammunition close by. He said, "We'll get you out of here as 8 soon as we can." So when the policemen took us up, there 9 again, they didn't wait on EMS, they put us in police cars, 10 Stanley and I, took us to the emergency room in police cars. 11 Q. After the SWAT team member got there, did he 12 remain with you and guard you or did he have to go on? 13 A. I think he stayed right there. I think somebody 14 else came down and went on, to the best of my recollection. 15 But it's like I say, even when I looked over here and saw this 16 figure here, which was probably less than a minute, I was 17 already -- it was kind of foggy what I was seeing. I felt 18 like I was going to pass out. 19 Q. Did you ever lose consciousness? 20 A. No, I didn't. 21 Q. Okay. Why don't you take a seat back up there. 22 Did you know Joe Wesbecker, David? 23 A. No, I didn't. 24 Q. Had you ever seen him before? 25 A. Not that I remember. 66 1 Q. And had you ever done anything to Joe Wesbecker 2 to cause him to shoot you? 3 A. No, sir. 4 Q. Did you ever hear of any threats that he might 5 have made against Standard Gravure or the people on that 6 premises? 7 A. No, sir. 8 Q. And you didn't see him until after you were 9 shot? 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. And he shot you in the back? 12 A. That is right. 13 Q. That's all I have. 14 JUDGE POTTER: Anything of this Witness, Mr. 15 Stopher? 16 MR. STOPHER: Yes, Your Honor. Let's move the 17 easel so we can see each other without looking through it, 18 sir. 19 MR. SMITH: Can we leave that over here? 20 MR. STOPHER: Sure. 21 22 EXAMINATION ___________ 23 24 BY_MR._STOPHER: __ ___ ________ 25 Q. Mr. Seidenfaden, let me hand you a copy of the 67 1 exhibit that the jurors have, which is Defendant's 2 Exhibit 163, sir. And if you would please turn, sir, to what 3 is marked Basement, I believe it is probably the third page in 4 that drawing, sir. Do you have a copy of that in front of 5 you, sir? 6 A. Yes, I do. 7 Q. Let me pull this out here just a little bit so 8 that -- can you see that well enough, sir? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Now, just to get us started in the right place 11 again, sir, do you see an area on this map that is marked 12 Armory Place, Standard Gravure Basement, sir? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And in the lower left-hand corner of that, do 15 you see the lines there? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. What does that represent, sir, to your 18 recollection? 19 A. That represents a stairway that came down from 20 the -- I think it was the shipping area. I think that's all 21 the further it went was from there down to the basement. 22 Q. And out of that stairwell do you see an opening 23 there that indicates a door? 24 A. Yes, I do. 25 Q. And if I understand correctly, sir, you were 68 1 working in an area approximately over here; am I right about 2 that? 3 A. That's correct. 4 Q. Now, if I understand correctly, sir, in order to 5 get from the stairwell over to the pressroom in Area One, if 6 someone came out of that door, sir, it would be necessary for 7 them to come by you, go around where Mr. Sallee was, enter the 8 tunnel and go on from there; am I correct? 9 A. From that doorway, yes, that would be the path 10 he would have to take. 11 Q. Now, as I understand it, sir, you were set up 12 with your materials and your equipment in that area making 13 couplings and making ladders to run electrical wiring up in 14 the ceiling in another area of the Standard Gravure plant; am 15 I correct about that, sir? 16 A. Well, basically that's all Area One. We were 17 set up there; right. We weren't making the ladders. That 18 comes in ready-made. 19 Q. You were making the couplings that connected the 20 ladders together? 21 A. Correct. 22 Q. All right. Now, let me show you some 23 photographs, sir, of this area and ask if you can identify 24 these items. Let me show you a photograph, sir, first, from a 25 document that's been marked as Defendant's Exhibit 72. Do you 69 1 recognize that doorway, sir? 2 A. I'm not sure. I assume that's the door that he 3 came through in the basement, though. 4 Q. Yes, sir. A doorway out of the stairwell. Does 5 that look familiar to you now? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And in that doorway there is a small window or 8 plate glass look-through; correct, sir? 9 A. That's correct. 10 Q. And this doorway actually opens back into the 11 stairwell; correct? 12 A. I didn't realize that before, but it does look 13 like it opens that way. 14 Q. All right, sir. Now, from this doorway, sir, 15 approximately how far away were you standing at the time that 16 you were doing your work that day? 17 A. I'm guessing 30 to 40 feet, maybe less. 18 Q. Let me show you another photograph that's been 19 marked as Defendant's Exhibit 73, and let me attempt to get 20 you squared away, sir, as to what we're looking at here. I'll 21 represent to you that in the background -- and I understand 22 that it's quite light -- is the same doorway that we were just 23 looking at, only the door's open; all right, sir? 24 A. Right. 25 Q. And I see in this area beside a column some work 70 1 equipment and some tools. 2 A. That is correct. 3 Q. Is that your work area, sir? 4 A. That looks like the tools we had there. 5 Q. All right. Now, if I understand correctly, sir, 6 you were working in that area that morning and Mr. Sallee had 7 come over to you when you were working there and spoke to you 8 briefly about getting some scrap to take with him after you 9 had finished that day; am I right? 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. And if I understand correctly, sir, you were 12 working with your back toward the camera angle here, more or 13 less, and your right shoulder pointed generally toward the 14 doorway. Am I correct about that? 15 A. That's correct. 16 Q. Now, sir, if someone came out of that doorway 17 and wanted to go into the tunnel to get over to the pressroom, 18 they would walk right around here, around that column and 19 toward the tunnel; correct, sir? 20 A. That is correct. 21 Q. And if that was the path that Mr. Wesbecker 22 wanted to follow that day, he would have had to come within 23 two or three feet of you; isn't that true, sir? 24 A. I believe that's right. 25 Q. I'm sorry, sir? 71 1 A. I believe that's correct. 2 Q. In other words, if he wanted to get from that 3 stairwell to the tunnel and go into the Area One pressroom and 4 to the supervisor's office upstairs, he would necessarily have 5 to walk within a couple or perhaps three feet of where you 6 were working; am I right? 7 A. From that doorway, I think we had some material 8 blocking a straighter path. He would almost have to come that 9 route, right, within two or three feet of me. 10 Q. He would almost have to bump into you or get 11 within arm's reach of you; correct, sir? 12 A. I'd say pretty close. Well, that aisleway was 13 wide enough that he really wouldn't have to bump me. But he 14 felt a need to, I guess. 15 Q. All right, sir. Now, if I understand correctly, 16 sir, Mr. Sallee talked to you for a minute or two, perhaps, 17 about the scrap and then he left. And then after he left, Mr. 18 Hatfield came to you, sir; am I correct? 19 A. Yes. Shortly after Paul went back to the 20 grinder room, I don't know, it may have been five minutes, it 21 may have been longer, but shortly thereafter. 22 Q. All right, sir. And then if I understand 23 correctly, both you and Mr. Hatfield were working in the 24 general area shown in this photograph; am I right, sir? 25 A. Actually, we would have been in from what that 72 1 picture's actually showing. 2 A. Over that way? 3 Q. Into the building more toward -- 4 Q. Toward the door or toward the other way? 5 A. Toward the tunnel, sir. 6 Q. Okay, sir. Let me see if I've got a photograph 7 that shows another way. Mr. Seidenfaden, let me try another 8 one here, sir, and see if this gets us a little bit closer to 9 the area. This is Defendant's Exhibit No. 75. And let me try 10 to get you squared away, sir. These are the two columns that 11 are shown on the map. I believe this dark rectangular area 12 over here to be the stairwell door. Does that look about 13 right to you, sir? 14 A. That looks more like the area we were at; right. 15 Q. Then you and Mr. Hatfield would have been 16 working someplace around this column? 17 A. This way. 18 Q. This way? 19 A. In that area right in here. Maybe a ten-foot 20 area right in there. 21 Q. Right in this area? 22 A. Correct. 23 Q. Sort of in between this column and this column; 24 am I right? 25 A. Well, we're actually just from that column but 73 1 this way of it. 2 Q. Okay. All right, sir. And if I understand 3 correctly, you were standing -- if the door is where you were, 4 you would have been standing upright with your back and your 5 right shoulder pointed toward that door; am I correct? 6 A. Correct. Slightly bent over. 7 Q. And if I understand correctly, sir, you were 8 doing some drilling on some holes; is that right? 9 A. At that particular time I was not drilling 10 holes. I think I was operating the band saw. 11 Q. You were working on the band saw? 12 A. That is correct. 13 Q. And how close to you was Mr. Hatfield, sir? 14 A. At the exact time that Wesbecker came up, I'm 15 not sure. I would think he would have been less than ten feet 16 away, probably more like five, but I'm not real positive. 17 Q. All right. Was he closer to the stairwell or 18 closer to the column from you? 19 A. We were probably the same distance from the 20 stairwell, but he was on a different angle to the stairwell 21 than I was. He would have been in this way a little more and 22 over towards the door. 23 Q. So he would have been more in this area? 24 A. Or just up a little. 25 Q. Right in there? 74 1 A. Right in there, possibly. Yes, that's my guess. 2 Q. Did he have his back to the stairwell door, 3 also, sir? 4 A. He said, "I think I've got a plan," and then I'm 5 not exactly sure what happened after that. I don't know which 6 way he was facing. 7 Q. Okay. All right. Now, if I understand 8 correctly, sir, you heard three shots as you recall it; am I 9 accurate? 10 A. The best I can recall, three shots. 11 Q. You were shot one time? 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. To the best of your knowledge, Mr. Hatfield was 14 shot one time? 15 A. To the best of my knowledge. 16 Q. And the third shot was a shot fired at Mr. 17 Sallee? 18 A. To the best of my knowledge, yes. 19 Q. Let me show you a couple of other areas, sir, 20 because we mentioned it or you mentioned it. Let me show you 21 a copy of a photograph that has been identified as Defendant's 22 Exhibit 86, and let me step around and try to get you 23 generally oriented. This is looking at the tunnel that you 24 described that goes over to the reel room under the pressroom 25 in Area One. 75 1 A. That's correct. 2 Q. And to the left there's a doorway or an opening 3 that goes into the grinder or the grinding room or the 4 grindery area? 5 A. That's correct. 6 Q. And is that where Mr. Sallee was working was in 7 this area, sir? 8 A. Yes, it was. 9 Q. And in order to get into the tunnel, one would 10 have to walk at that opening or by that opening; correct? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. Let me show you a couple of other photographs, 13 sir, and I recognize and admit that they are dark. One of 14 them is too dark and I think the other one is too light. The 15 first one, though, I think is pretty visible. It's 16 Defendant's Exhibit 90. Does that generally show the tunnel 17 area that you were describing, sir? 18 A. In reality it doesn't -- it looks really -- that 19 really looks more like a tunnel than what it is. 20 Q. All right, sir. Let me try another one and see 21 if this portrays it a little more accurately. This is 22 Defendant's Exhibit 92 -- and I apologize, sir, for it being 23 so dark -- and it is looking back -- it's standing at the 24 other end of the tunnel, sir, and looking back in the area in 25 which you were working, this being one wall of the tunnel, 76 1 this being the other wall and the big rolls of paper. Does 2 that now look familiar to you, sir? 3 A. It looks a lot different on a photograph than it 4 does in reality still but, I mean, I'm sure that's accurate. 5 Q. I understand. All right, sir. Let me just try 6 one more, sir, and see if this is at all accurate. This is 7 Defendant's Exhibit 91, again, looking at the tunnel from the 8 opposite direction, looking back towards your work station 9 with rolls of paper stacked along one wall and a small walking 10 space on the -- in this photograph on the right-hand wall. 11 Does that look generally familiar for that area, sir? 12 A. Yes, it does. 13 Q. Thank you, sir. Those are all the questions I 14 have. 15 Your Honor, we move the admission of those 16 Defendant's exhibit photographs. 17 JUDGE POTTER: You want to read off the numbers? 18 MS. ZETTLER: Could he tell us what numbers 19 those are, please? 20 JUDGE POTTER: That's what I said. You want to 21 read off the numbers? 22 MR. STOPHER: Yes. They are 72, 73, 75, 86, 90, 23 91 and 92, Your Honor. 24 JUDGE POTTER: Be admitted. Mr. Smith? 25 MR. SMITH: I just have a couple more questions. 77 1 77 2 Mr. Stopher, can I see those exhibits? 3 MR. STOPHER: Sure. 4 MR. SMITH: Thank you. 5 MR. STOPHER: Yes, sir. 6 7 FURTHER_EXAMINATION _______ ___________ 8 9 BY_MR._SMITH: __ ___ ______ 10 Q. Let me see if I can work this thing. As I 11 understand it, David, you were working back in this area where 12 I'm pointing? 13 A. It's actually out of the picture where I was 14 working. 15 Q. Is this a better picture of where you were 16 working? 17 A. That's pretty much the lower left-hand corner of 18 that picture is actually where we were physically working. We 19 were set up -- we would move everything over and lock it up 20 against that column, but when we set up in the morning we'd 21 move it out into that more open area to work. 22 Q. Now, as I understand it, this is -- shows the 23 tunnel going from the stairway back over toward the reel room; 24 is that right? 25 A. That is correct. 78 1 Q. All right. Now, where would you have been 2 working in relation to this? 3 A. Just off to the right out of the picture. 4 Q. There's a couple of men standing here that I can 5 see by looking at the picture itself. Do you see where that 6 is? Would you have been past this? 7 A. Yeah. Just a little past this, possibly. I 8 need to almost see that column as a reference. 9 Q. So what I'm not sure of is actually whether or 10 not you were in a direct path of Mr. Wesbecker. It appears to 11 me that he might have been able -- that he must have diverted 12 to get to where you were; is that correct? 13 A. I tell you, I really couldn't say for sure. 14 Q. If you look at this exhibit? 15 A. We were set up more right in this area here. 16 Right through here. 17 Q. And so he came down this way and then around, or 18 do you know? 19 A. I really -- I really don't know. 20 Q. That's fine. Thank you, David. That's all the 21 questions we have. 22 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much, sir; you may 23 step down. You're excused. 24 Ladies and gentlemen, I'm going to take a 25 15-minute recess. As I've mentioned to you before, do not 79 1 permit anyone to speak to you about this trial and any attempt 2 to do so should be reported to me. 3 (RECESS) 4 SHERIFF CECIL: All jurors are present. 5 JUDGE POTTER: Please be seated. 6 Mr. Smith, do you want to call your next 7 witness. 8 MR. SMITH: Your Honor, we'd call Mr. Stanley 9 Hatfield, please. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Hatfield, would you raise 11 your right hand, please, sir. 12 13 STANLEY HATFIELD, after first being duly sworn, 14 was examined and testified as follows: 15 16 JUDGE POTTER: Please be seated, please keep 17 your voice up, and see the thing that looks like this? 18 JUDGE POTTER: If you have that right in front 19 of you, you don't have to bend down to the microphone; it will 20 pick you up. And would you state your name loud and clear, 21 sir. 22 MR. HATFIELD: My name is Stanley Hatfield. 23 24 25 80 1 2 EXAMINATION ___________ 3 4 BY_MR._SMITH: __ ___ ______ 5 Q. How old of a man are you? 6 A. Forty-seven. 7 Q. How long have you lived in Louisville? 8 A. All my life. 9 Q. Are you employed now, Mr. Hatfield? 10 A. Yes, I am. 11 Q. Where? 12 A. Marine Electric Company. 13 Q. Are you married? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And what's your wife's name? 16 A. Darlene. 17 Q. And do you have children? 18 A. By a previous marriage. 19 Q. When did you begin working for Marine Electric, 20 Mr. Hatfield? 21 A. On July 6th, 1965. 22 Q. Are you a journeyman electrician, also, sir? 23 A. Yes, I am. 24 Q. And had you worked at the Standard Gravure 25 premises prior to September 14th, 1989? 81 1 A. Yes, I had. 2 Q. On how many occasions? 3 A. Several different occasions. 4 Q. Well, would you say you had worked there once a 5 year? 6 A. No. Maybe once every five years. 7 Q. Do you recall when the last time it had been 8 before this September 1989 job that you had been in the 9 Standard Gravure premises? 10 A. I would say it was when they put the new folders 11 in in 1983. 12 Q. So it had been six or seven years since you had 13 been there before? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Did you normally work with David Seidenfaden and 16 some of the gentlemen that were with you there at the Standard 17 Gravure premises in September? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Were you and David part of a crew? 20 A. Yes, we were. 21 Q. And did you generally work together? 22 A. On that particular job; yes, sir. 23 Q. Between the two of you, was either one of you 24 senior to the other? 25 A. No, I wouldn't say that. 82 1 Q. Were either one of you giving directions to the 2 other or were you-all working together? 3 A. We were just working in harmony. 4 Q. You heard Mr. Seidenfaden concerning the fact 5 that you had been in the tunnel area or in the bindery working 6 on this problem of how to lay this tray; is that right? 7 A. That's correct. 8 Q. Tell the jury what you had been doing that 9 morning. 10 A. It seems like we were -- we had to go under a 11 beam, and we were just checking to see if we had enough 12 clearance for people to walk under it or equipment to go under 13 it. 14 Q. How long had you been in the basement area 15 before you were shot, Stanley? 16 A. On that whole particular job? 17 Q. No, just that few minutes -- 18 A. That morning? 19 Q. Yes. 20 A. Okay. Probably an hour. 21 Q. Had you been going back and forth between the 22 area where you had your work laid out and the rest of the 23 plant? 24 A. No. Just in that general area. 25 Q. May I approach the Witness, Your Honor? 83 1 JUDGE POTTER: Certainly. 2 Q. We previously discussed this exhibit and you 3 were shot in this area near the grindery; correct? 4 A. That's correct. 5 Q. But as I understood it, you were actually laying 6 the electrical wiring in the area of the reel room; is that 7 right? 8 A. That's correct. 9 Q. All right. Now, had you been in this area 10 immediately before you got shot? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. How long had it been since you were back in the 13 basement area before you were shot, is my question. 14 A. I would guess a short period of time, maybe five 15 minutes. 16 Q. What had you been doing before you came into the 17 basement area? 18 A. I was measuring the tray in the tunnel area 19 there. 20 Q. This tunnel area or this tunnel area? 21 A. The one towards you. 22 Q. This one? 23 A. Up in that area. 24 Q. Physically, what were you doing when you were 25 shot? 84 1 A. As far as I can remember, I had come back with 2 some measurements and I believe I was cutting some miters on 3 some cable tray. 4 Q. Did you see Mr. Wesbecker before you were shot? 5 A. I got a glance when he walked in the door. 6 Q. All right. Which direction did he come from? 7 A. To my right. He came in the stairwell door. 8 Q. This door right here? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Did you see him come in through that door? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. All right. Did you see the gun? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Did you notice anything unusual about Mr. 15 Wesbecker at that time? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Did you look back down? 18 A. I just glanced up, noticed someone was coming in 19 the door, and then glanced back down at my work. 20 Q. Were you bent over also like David was? 21 A. It's a possibility. I was working probably on 22 something on the floor. 23 Q. How far were you from David? 24 A. Probably five feet. 25 Q. Were you-all talking or had you been talking? 85 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. He testified that you said that you thought you 3 had figured out the solution on this problem? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Does that sound accurate to you? 6 A. Yes, it does. 7 Q. Then what happened next after you glanced up and 8 saw Mr. Wesbecker coming from your right? 9 A. I heard a pop and I heard David in pain. 10 Q. What did you hear him do? 11 A. I heard -- he just said "oh" and then he was in 12 a lot of pain. I could tell he was in a lot of pain and he 13 was kind of moving around. 14 Q. Then what happened next? 15 A. And then he walked behind me and shot me. 16 Q. Did you see Mr. Wesbecker walk behind you? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Was Mr. Wesbecker behind both of you when he 19 shot you? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Let me see if I understand this, Stanley. Let's 22 assume -- let's assume I'm where you are, all right? Would 23 Mr. Seidenfaden have been to your left or to your right? 24 A. To my right. 25 Q. Where would the basement door have been? 86 1 A. Probably to Mr. Seidenfaden's right. 2 Q. So Seidenfaden would be here, you would be here, 3 about five feet away, and Mr. Wesbecker would have been coming 4 behind you? 5 A. That's correct. 6 Q. And you were you think bent over? 7 A. It's very possible I was. 8 Q. You saw Mr. Wesbecker come in and you didn't 9 think anything about it? 10 A. No, I didn't. 11 Q. And did you look up again before you were shot? 12 A. No, I didn't. 13 Q. Did you make any threatening move or in any way 14 try to stop Mr. Wesbecker? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Could Mr. Wesbecker as far as you were concerned 17 have gone on past you without shooting you? 18 A. Yes, as far as I'm concerned. 19 Q. Were you blocking or was David blocking his 20 route into the area where he was wanting to go, as far as you 21 know? 22 A. No. 23 Q. You got shot in the back? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. When you were bent over? 87 1 A. That's correct. 2 Q. Had you ever met Mr. Wesbecker before? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Had you ever seen Mr. Wesbecker before? 5 A. Possibly, not that I can remember. 6 Q. How much time elapsed between the time that Mr. 7 Seidenfaden was shot and you were shot? 8 A. Seconds. 9 Q. Where were you shot? 10 A. In the middle of my back right above my belt. 11 Q. What did you do when you were shot? 12 A. I don't know if I was knocked down or I laid 13 down. 14 Q. Then what happened? 15 A. Then I heard another shot and after that, I 16 don't -- I don't recall anything. 17 Q. Did you pass out? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Okay. Well, what occurred next? Did you talk 20 to David or did you talk to anybody else there? 21 A. No. I just laid still, and like David said, 22 apparently I thought he was coming back because I didn't move 23 or make any noise at all. 24 Q. Did you even connect, Stanley, that the man that 25 you had glanced at had shot you? 88 1 A. No. 2 Q. What made you think that you were shot, even? 3 Was it the sound or did you see a gun or where did you get the 4 connection? The reason I ask that is because David said he 5 thought that some piece of machinery had blown up. 6 A. It felt to me as, I don't know, a practical joke 7 or something, like somebody would come up behind you and hit 8 you with something -- it felt to me like one of these pump-up 9 air guns. 10 Q. After you were shot, did you make any 11 threatening movements toward Mr. Wesbecker? 12 A. No, sir. 13 Q. Did you ever even see Mr. Wesbecker after you 14 were shot? 15 A. No, sir. 16 Q. Then what happened next, after you were shot? 17 A. I remember Dave asking me how -- you know, how I 18 was, but I never did -- I never did say anything. 19 Q. Why? 20 A. I don't know why. I don't know if I was scared, 21 or I wasn't sure what had happened to me. 22 Q. Where did the bullet pass through on you, 23 Stanley? 24 A. It came out the left side of my stomach. 25 Q. Then what happened? 89 1 A. It seems to me that two gentlemen came in the 2 stairway door and I asked them to get help for us. 3 Q. Were these uniformed policemen or do you think 4 they were other employees? 5 A. No. I believe they were Standard Gravure 6 employees. 7 Q. And what did they do? 8 A. They left as soon as they came in the door. 9 Q. How long did you lay there before help arrived? 10 A. I really don't recall. It could have been 15 11 minutes, maybe. 12 Q. Then who came to your assistance? 13 A. Seemed like it was maybe a detective or 14 something. And he checked my injuries and loosened my belt 15 and they -- it was several minutes before they took me out. 16 Q. You were taken out before David was? 17 A. I'm not sure of that. 18 Q. Were you bleeding profusely through your abdomen 19 or anything, or did you even look? 20 A. I didn't look. I knew I had a stomach injury, 21 but I didn't know how bad it was. 22 Q. Had you ever heard any threats or seen any 23 violence at Standard Gravure? 24 A. No, sir. 25 Q. Had you ever had any problems with any of the 90 1 Standard Gravure employees? 2 A. No, sir. 3 Q. Had they ever threatened you or bullied you in 4 any way? 5 A. No, sir. 6 Q. How about working with you? Were they 7 cooperative in assisting you in getting your job done? 8 A. Anything that we needed to do, they were willing 9 to help. 10 Q. Was there somebody there at the Standard plant 11 that you would go to if you needed anything in particular of 12 assistance from them? 13 A. No. That would have been the foreman's 14 responsibility. 15 Q. Who was your foreman on the job. 16 A. Dave Reichelt. 17 Q. Do you know if he had a particular individual 18 with Standard Gravure that was helping coordinate the work 19 between you-all as the subs and Standard Gravure? 20 A. Well, I'm sure he did, but I wouldn't know who 21 it would be. 22 Q. Do you know of any problems in getting your work 23 done? 24 A. No. No, sir. 25 Q. Coordinating matters? 91 1 A. No. 2 Q. Did you ever see any weapons there at the 3 Standard Gravure plant? 4 A. No. 5 Q. You never even saw Joseph Wesbecker's weapon, 6 did you? 7 A. No, I didn't. 8 Q. That's all I have. 9 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher? 10 11 EXAMINATION ___________ 12 13 BY_MR._STOPHER: __ ___ ________ 14 Q. Mr. Hatfield, just a very few questions. From 15 the position where you were working that morning, sir, just 16 immediately before you were wounded, about how far away was 17 the stairwell door? 18 A. I would say approximately 25 feet. 19 Q. And if I understand correctly, Mr. Seidenfaden 20 was a little closer to that door to the stairwell than you 21 were? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. And if I understand correctly, Mr. Seidenfaden 24 was wounded first; am I right? 25 A. Yes, sir. That's correct. 92 1 Q. And when he was shot, you didn't know or 2 understand that he had been shot; am I correct about that? 3 A. That's correct. 4 Q. You did notice him begin to hop or dance around 5 in pain; am I correct about that? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. He stood where he was and was jumping or 8 bouncing and moving around before he fell down; am I correct 9 about that? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. And during that series of movements on his part, 12 if I understand correctly, Mr. Wesbecker did not shoot him 13 again; is that accurate, sir? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. Instead, Mr. Wesbecker's shot was at you; am I 16 correct? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Now, sir, in order to move that day from that 19 stairwell door to the tunnel and up into the pressroom, there 20 were some pathways around where your work station was located; 21 am I right, sir? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. And if I understand correctly, in order to get 24 from that stairwell door into that tunnel, Mr. Wesbecker had 25 to choose a pathway around tools and materials that would have 93 1 put him within three feet of where you were standing; is that 2 accurate, sir? 3 A. That's correct. 4 Q. In other words, to get from the stairwell door 5 to the tunnel, he had to walk within almost arm's reach of 6 you; is that accurate, sir? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. That's all I have, sir. 9 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much, sir. You 10 may step down. You're excused. 11 Mr. Smith, you want to call your next witness? 12 MR. SMITH: We call Mr. Chuck Gorman. Charles 13 "Chuck" Gorman. 14 JUDGE POTTER: Would you step up here and raise 15 your right hand. 16 17 CHARLES GORMAN, after first being duly sworn, 18 was examined and testified as follows: 19 20 JUDGE POTTER: Would you please have a seat, 21 keep your voice up good and loud and state your full name for 22 the jury, please. 23 MR. GORMAN: My name is Charles Gorman. 24 MR. SMITH: Your Honor, before I start with Mr. 25 Gorman, I may not have asked to introduce Group Exhibits 165 94 1 and 166 and we move for their admission at this time. 2 JUDGE POTTER: 166 I think is already in and 165 3 is admitted. 4 5 EXAMINATION ___________ 6 7 BY_MR._SMITH: __ ___ ______ 8 Q. How old a man are you, Mr. Gorman? 9 A. Fifty-eight. 10 Q. Where do you live? 11 A. 2714 Colin Avenue, Louisville. 12 Q. Are you a long-time Louisville resident? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. How long have you lived here? 15 A. All my life. 16 Q. Do you have a family? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. What's your wife's name? 19 A. Betty. 20 Q. Does she work outside the home? 21 A. Yes, she does. 22 Q. Where does she work? 23 A. She works for Doctor Denise Dickinson. 24 Q. What does she do? 25 A. She's office manager. 95 1 Q. And do you have children? 2 A. Four. 3 Q. Do any of them live with you now, Mr. Gorman? 4 A. No, sir. 5 Q. Where did you last work, Mr. Gorman? 6 A. Standard Gravure. 7 Q. And when did you begin working at Standard 8 Gravure? 9 A. October 1957. 10 Q. And how long did you continue work at Standard 11 Gravure? 12 A. Up to '89. 13 Q. Was September the 14th, 1989, the last day you 14 worked at Standard Gravure? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. Have you sought any employment since then? 17 A. No, sir. 18 Q. Why not? 19 A. Well, I had quite a few surgeries to go through. 20 I had to have a rotator cuff fixed. I had to have where I was 21 shot fixed. Since then, my -- I've lost a kidney and I have a 22 hip implant, so I'm not able to work. 23 Q. What type of injuries did you receive in this 24 shooting? 25 A. I was shot in the calf, in my right buttock and 96 1 left shoulder. 2 Q. How many times were you shot, Chuck? 3 A. Three. 4 Q. If you started with Standard Gravure in 1957 and 5 worked there until 1989, my calculation would be that you 6 worked there almost 32 years; is that right? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. And what did you do for Standard Gravure, sir? 9 A. Well, at the time of the shooting I was the 10 second man in charge, man in charge, wherever they needed me. 11 Q. Are you a pressman? 12 A. Pressman. 13 Q. And how long had you been a journeyman pressman? 14 A. Since 1962, '-3, something like that. 15 Q. At the time you were shot, of all the pressmen 16 at Standard Gravure, do you have any idea what your seniority 17 would have been, sir? 18 A. I think I was Number Three. 19 Q. Did you know Joseph Wesbecker? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. How did you know Joseph Wesbecker? 22 A. Well, he worked down there 17 years. 23 Q. Were you working there when Joseph Wesbecker 24 started? 25 A. Yes, sir. 97 1 Q. I believe the record will indicate that Mr. 2 Wesbecker started in approximately 1971. Is that your 3 recollection? 4 A. Oh, I wouldn't know when he started. I just 5 know that he had been there a long time. 6 Q. Do you recall when he started? Approximately. 7 A. No, sir. No, sir; I don't. 8 Q. Do you know whether or not he started up as a 9 fly-boy and then a helper or whether he came as -- from some 10 other company with -- already with his card? 11 A. No. I think he came in as a traveling 12 journeyman. 13 Q. Do you remember the first dealings you had with 14 Joseph Wesbecker? 15 A. No, I don't. 16 Q. Describe to this jury the type of guy that 17 Joseph Wesbecker was, Chuck. 18 A. I don't know how to answer that. We never 19 worked the same shift unless we crossed paths on overtime. I 20 just never really knew the man well enough to describe him. 21 Q. Did you have conversations with him? 22 A. I'm sure in all those years I had to have some 23 conversation with him at one time or another. 24 Q. Did you ever see him socially? 25 A. No, sir. 98 1 Q. Did you ever go drink a beer with him or go 2 bowling with him or anything like that after work? 3 A. No, sir. 4 Q. Would it be generally said that you and Mr. 5 Wesbecker worked different shifts? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. Did you ever have any problems with Joseph 8 Wesbecker? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Did you ever know Joseph Wesbecker to be a 11 violent man? 12 A. No, sir. 13 Q. Did you ever see Joseph Wesbecker lose his 14 temper? 15 A. No, sir. 16 Q. Did you ever hear Joseph Wesbecker make any 17 threats against anyone? 18 A. No, sir. 19 Q. On an average week, say up till 1988, how often 20 would you see Joseph Wesbecker? 21 A. Not very often. 22 Q. When you would see him, where would you see him 23 generally? 24 A. Well, if I worked over on the five-to-one, I 25 might see him. 99 1 Q. Did Joseph Wesbecker ever work with you on the 2 same press? 3 A. I thought about that, and I'm sure in the amount 4 of years we were there we had to at one time or another, but 5 nothing sticks out in my mind. 6 Q. Do you remember whether he was a particularly 7 good or particularly bad worker? 8 A. Oh, he wasn't a bad worker, I don't think. No. 9 I'd say he was an average, probably, to good worker. I really 10 don't have much of an opinion on that. If he was a bad worker 11 I might have an opinion, but I don't think so. 12 Q. Did you ever have any problem getting him to do 13 something that you asked him to do? 14 A. No, sir. 15 Q. If you had had an assignment in 1988 that would 16 have required you to work a particular press with Joseph 17 Wesbecker, would you have had any objection to doing so, sir? 18 A. No, sir. 19 Q. Why? 20 A. Would I have an objection of working on the 21 press I was assigned to? 22 Q. With Joseph Wesbecker. 23 A. No, sir. I wouldn't have any objection. 24 Q. Do you know of anybody that ever had a fight 25 with Joseph Wesbecker? 100 1 A. No, sir. 2 Q. Do you know of anybody that was ever mad at 3 Joseph Wesbecker? 4 A. No, sir. 5 Q. Do you know of anybody that Joseph Wesbecker was 6 mad at? 7 A. I don't -- not that I could recall. 8 Q. What was the attitude of the pressmen back in 9 1989 concerning the management at Standard Gravure, Chuck? 10 A. Well, I don't know. I think we -- we were all 11 ready for raises and things like that because we had been -- 12 our wages had been frozen for years, but I think that's 13 understandable. 14 Q. Understandable that your wages had been frozen? 15 A. No. That we were concerned about that. 16 Everybody was ready for a raise. We had -- we thought we had 17 earned it, but, I mean, if that's what you know -- you want to 18 know how I feel about Standard; is that what you're saying? 19 Q. Well, was there a general -- you described one 20 problem or one concern of the pressmen in general. Was 21 that -- you hadn't had a raise in a number of years? 22 A. Yeah. We were concerned about them closing. 23 Q. You were concerned about them closing. Why? 24 A. Well, we were down to one pressroom and it was 25 an old pressroom. The new presses were gone. 101 1 Q. Were you concerned about losing your job? You 2 were the Number Three man with seniority. 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. Why? If they shut the whole plant down it 5 wouldn't make any difference -- 6 A. I don't know who would hire someone 58 years 7 old. Well, at that time I was 53 or so. 8 Q. What was your normal shift to work, Chuck? 9 A. In the '80s, it was nine to five. 10 Q. Do you remember the last time you saw Joseph 11 Wesbecker before he shot you? 12 A. No, sir. 13 Q. Were you aware that Joseph Wesbecker had been 14 off on long-term disability? 15 A. I was aware that he was off, yes. 16 Q. Did you know why he was off? 17 A. Well, I knew it had something to do with 18 disability, but I didn't know exactly why. 19 Q. Did you know it was a mental disability? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Did you know he was having problems with his 22 nerves or with depression or with stress on the job? 23 A. No. I didn't know that. 24 Q. Did you have any idea what the nature of his 25 mental disability was? 102 1 A. Well, I guess everybody knew that he didn't want 2 to work the folder; that's the only thing I knew. 3 Q. Tell the jury about what working the folder 4 entails. And sort of give us a basic lesson in how those 5 presses worked and what type of pressmen there were and what 6 your general duties were, including the folder. 7 A. Well, you had part of the crew that were ink men 8 and you had reel men and you had usually two folder men, 9 sometimes three, depending on how many units you were running. 10 And the folder man had to set up the job. And each job was -- 11 some jobs were a lot different than others, but most of them 12 weren't. You didn't have a whole lot of changes, but 13 sometimes you did. But it was a folder man's job and 14 responsibility to make sure the back end was secure and all 15 the cylinders were changed and the inks and everything was 16 right before you could start up again, and then lining the job 17 up and everything. The folder man took all the 18 responsibility, the man in charge, that is. 19 Q. You have been the man in charge and the folder 20 man on a number of occasions; is that right? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. Did you like being the folder man or the man in 23 charge? 24 A. I enjoyed it. 25 Q. Why? 103 1 A. Well, it was a challenge, and that's what I 2 trained on to do is to be a pressman. And if you were a 3 pressman, that's the ultimate, being the folder man. 4 Q. Is the folder man sort of the chief, the one 5 that's really operating the press at the time? 6 A. Well, he operates his end of it, the top end, 7 and the register and everything like that, but he has to 8 designate, there's a lot of other things that are done on the 9 press, the reel men, the ink men, they had to run the color 10 and, yes, but all the responsibility was on the folder man. 11 Q. Who turns the press on? 12 A. Folder man. 13 Q. Who turns the press off? 14 A. The folder man does. 15 Q. Who adjusts the speed of the press? 16 A. The folder man. 17 Q. Who makes sure that the press is turning out a 18 product that's something that can be sold to a purchaser? 19 A. The folder man. 20 Q. Now, does the folder man report to anybody else? 21 A. Foreman. 22 Q. And then the foreman reports to who? 23 A. Superintendent. 24 Q. Can the folder man give the ink man or the reel 25 man instructions on what to do with respect to the press? 104 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And how would that come up? 3 A. Well, if you saw the color wasn't laying right, 4 you could just ask to get a reading on the color or ask them 5 to thin them down, and they would do it. 6 Q. Is it important that the folder man be competent 7 in what he's doing? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. And why is that? 10 A. Well, it's a lot of responsibility on the 11 folder, just getting the end result out. You had to answer 12 for it. 13 Q. Had you heard other pressmen complaining about 14 the stress caused by the folder? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Do you -- are you familiar with the -- the mode 17 that the foreman would go about in selecting who would be the 18 folder man and actually operate the press? 19 A. He would choose whoever was the most competent 20 most of the time. 21 Q. Was it in everybody's benefit to select somebody 22 to operate the folder that would be good at operating the 23 folder? 24 A. Yes, sir? 25 Q. Why is that, Chuck? 105 1 A. Well, if a folder man wasn't capable, the 2 foreman was going to have to answer for the books if he put 3 him up there. 4 Q. So would it be in the foreman's interest to 5 assign somebody to the folder that felt that job was stressful 6 and felt like they didn't want to do that? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. You say he would do that? 9 A. Okay. 10 Q. It would be in the foreman's interest to not 11 assign that to somebody? 12 A. Oh, that's right. 13 Q. But for what reason? 14 A. It's like I say, if the foreman puts somebody 15 not capable, the foreman's going to have to answer for the end 16 result, too. So I don't think that he would put somebody up 17 there that wasn't capable. 18 Q. Did you ever see a situation where a foreman 19 required somebody to work on the folder that didn't want to 20 work the folder? 21 A. I don't recall. It may have happened. I don't 22 really recall. 23 Q. And in that situation why would that have been 24 done? 25 A. Why would it have? I guess it could be done if 106 1 you were short folder men on a certain shift, you may not have 2 your best folder man around and maybe when you put somebody up 3 there that's not really used to it, but they -- they could 4 train. I mean, that's how you learn, too. You know, even 5 though you don't really know, you have to learn the press, so 6 you have to get up there sometime. 7 Q. Did you ever see Joseph Wesbecker working the 8 folder? 9 A. I think I have. 10 Q. What kind of folder man was he, if you know? 11 A. I don't know. 12 Q. Do you recall ever being the man in charge and 13 assigning Joseph Wesbecker to work on the folder? 14 A. No, sir. 15 Q. Or was that part of your duties as the man in 16 charge? 17 A. No. No, sir. 18 Q. That was something that the foreman did? 19 A. Foreman. 20 Q. Did you ever see any guns on the premises of 21 Standard Gravure in the 30-something years that you worked 22 there? 23 A. Only when someone would bring one in to raffle 24 off, shotguns, something like that. 25 Q. What do you mean "raffle off"? 107 1 A. Oh, they'd bring them in and sell them for a 2 dollar a chance and sell so many chances. If somebody wanted 3 $100 for a gun, he would sell 100 chances and pick the winner 4 out just like a lottery. That's the only time I ever saw 5 guns. 6 Q. Would that be limited to guns or would there be 7 other things that were raffled off in that manner? 8 A. There might have been some other things raffled 9 off. 10 Q. Maybe like tools or something of that nature? 11 A. Maybe. I can't recall. 12 Q. Did you ever buy a raffle ticket for a gun? 13 A. I probably have. 14 Q. Are you a hunter? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. What do you hunt? 17 A. Rabbits when I hunted. 18 Q. Have you been able to hunt since you've had this 19 injury? 20 A. No, sir. 21 Q. Did you ever see Joseph Wesbecker with a gun -- 22 A. No, sir. 23 Q. -- before September 14, 1989? 24 A. No, sir. 25 Q. Did you ever see him participate in any of these 108 1 raffles? 2 A. No, sir. 3 Q. Did you ever hear a gun discharge or somebody 4 shooting a gun off on the premises of Standard Gravure? 5 A. No, sir. 6 Q. Were you aware of one incident when somebody 7 came in with a blank gun and shot off a blank gun as a joke? 8 A. No, sir. 9 Q. Was Standard Gravure a tough place to work? Was 10 there a lot of fighting there with the men down there, pretty 11 rough guys? 12 A. No, sir. It was automatic expulsion. 13 Q. Why? 14 A. Fighting. It was pretty automatic. 15 Q. Did you ever see somebody expelled for fighting? 16 A. No, sir. No, sir. 17 Q. Were the supervisors there pretty good about 18 enforcing the rules in connection with conduct of the 19 employees? 20 A. I think so. 21 Q. Did you ever know of any threats that Joseph 22 Wesbecker might have made in connection with Standard Gravure 23 or his employment before September 14th, 1989? 24 A. No, sir. 25 Q. What shift were you working on September the 109 1 14th, 1989? 2 A. Nine to five. 3 Q. What time did you come to work that day? 4 A. About 8:20, 8:30, something like that. 5 Q. What was your normal routine? 6 A. Well, I would come in the locker room and change 7 clothes, put on my work clothes and walk to the break room and 8 put my lunch in the refrigerator and sit in there and read the 9 paper for a few minutes. 10 Q. How did you normally bring your work clothes to 11 work and take them home? 12 A. I had a little bag. 13 Q. A gym-type bag? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. Was that normal among the pressmen there -- 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. -- to carry clothes to and from work in some 18 type of gym-bag-type container? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. And was this the type of work that required that 21 you -- at the end of the day your clothes would be dirty and 22 your body would be dirty and you would need to take a shower 23 before changing back into street clothes? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. And is that generally what occurred? 110 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. Is generally that what you did on the morning of 3 September 14th, 1989, come to work and change out of your 4 street clothes into your work clothes? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. Did you-all have uniforms as pressmen? 7 A. Yes. We had rented uniforms, dark blue, I 8 believe they were. 9 Q. But these were uniforms that you took home and 10 washed and then brought back with you or did they have -- 11 A. Well, I have to go -- yeah. At the time of the 12 shooting I was renting those clothes, so they would be hanging 13 up -- I forgot about this. They would be hanging up, but I 14 still carried towels back and forth with a gym bag. But we 15 had rented uniforms. They would be hanging up on a hanger 16 inside the break room. 17 Q. When you came into the locker room that day, was 18 there anybody in the locker room? 19 A. Just the normal guys. 20 Q. Do you recall, as we sit here, anybody that was 21 sitting in the locker room when you came in, Chuck? 22 A. When I came in; no, I don't. 23 Q. How long did it take you to change into your 24 work clothes? 25 A. Five minutes, maybe. 111 1 Q. Do you recall anybody you talked to or anything 2 you did while you changed clothes? 3 A. No, sir; I don't. 4 Q. What's the next thing you did? 5 A. Just walked right down the aisle to the break 6 room, which enters right -- there's a door that enters into 7 the break room from the locker room and enters about right in 8 the middle of the break room. And I'd put my lunch in the 9 refrigerator. 10 Q. All right. I think we have some exhibits that 11 will... Why don't you come down here, Chuck, so you can 12 explain this to these people. 13 You identify what's been marked as exhibit -- 14 let's see, you're going to need to stand aside so the members 15 of the jury can see this, Chuck. Can you identify what's been 16 marked as Defendant's Exhibit 165, Chuck? 17 A. I don't know where we're at here. All right. 18 Q. Here's the locker room, here's the break room. 19 A. Okay. Yes. 20 Q. What's this area here? 21 A. This is the pressroom? Yeah. This is the 22 pressroom here. 23 Q. Why don't you come stand over here. 24 A. This is the Area One pressroom over here. 25 Q. Did you ever work in this area? 112 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. Is that where you generally worked? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. And is this the locker room that you were 5 talking about where you changed? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. How did you get to the locker room, Chuck? 8 A. There's a door coming down the hallway here from 9 the front of this -- this doesn't look right for some reason. 10 Q. Here's Armory Place this way. 11 A. Right. There's a door coming through here, 12 comes into the locker room right here. 13 Q. All right. How do you get into the building? 14 A. Through the Armory Place entrance. 15 Q. Where is the Armory Place entrance? 16 A. There should be a guard shack right in here. 17 Let's see here. Right in here is the guard shack in here. 18 Q. Okay. And -- 19 A. This is Armory Place. We come in through here 20 or either come this way and this is the guard shack, and we go 21 in the building here and come right through here. 22 Q. Where you have to go around? 23 A. Yes. You have to go around through here. 24 Q. What's in this area? 25 A. Well, as you go in, there's an elevator on the 113 1 right and left and there's a blind man's stand here. You had 2 to take a right and another hard right to go back the hallway 3 to get in the locker room. 4 Q. Where is the door to the locker room here? 5 A. It looks like it's right here. 6 Q. Are these benches? 7 A. These are lockers. 8 Q. Are there benches in there, also? 9 A. Yeah. There's a bench in front of each locker. 10 Q. Were there showers? 11 A. Yes. Showers were right here. 12 Q. But so this is morning; you didn't need to take 13 a shower? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Is this entrance here where you come in, is that 16 an employees-only entrance or can anybody walk in there? 17 A. Well, it's probably both, you know, you had to 18 sign in if you weren't an employee. You had to sign in. 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. Employees had badges and after a while -- after 21 showing them a while they knew your face, you wouldn't have to 22 show them. 23 Q. Were you wearing your badge on September 14th, 24 1989? 25 A. I doubt it. 114 1 Q. Because -- 2 A. They knew me. 3 Q. I believe we have a blowup of this locker area/ 4 break room area. Do you recognize this as being the shower, 5 the locker room and the break room and the foreman's office 6 there? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. Is that an accurate blowup of that area without 9 the names there? 10 A. I think so. Except I think that door opened the 11 other way. 12 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, at this time, we have 13 Defendant's 166 that we would move for admission into 14 evidence. 15 JUDGE POTTER: We've got one more 166. 16 MR. STOPHER: We also have copies for the 17 jurors. 18 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. 19 SHERIFF CECIL: (Hands documents to Jurors). 20 Q. Had this break room/locker room area been 21 basically in this same configuration for some time, Chuck? 22 A. No. I think it was probably not over a year 23 old, maybe. 24 Q. What -- what had been the circumstances before 25 that in connection with this? How was the setup before? 115 1 A. When we'd come to work where we'd go, you mean? 2 We never had a break room. 3 Q. This is something that was new? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. All right. Tell the jury what happened that 6 morning starting with after you changed into your work clothes 7 and went into the break room. 8 A. Okay. My locker was about right here, and when 9 I changed clothes I gathered my lunch bag and went straight up 10 through here through that door, and there was a refrigerator 11 right on the right of the door on that same wall. I put my 12 bag in there and I just stepped back, probably about right in 13 front of the door again, or approximately, and just stood 14 there a second. I wasn't there very long when I saw -- 15 Q. Where would that be on here where you were 16 standing? 17 A. Probably right inside this door. 18 Q. So were you actually in the locker room or were 19 you in the break room? 20 A. No. I was in the break room. 21 Q. But you were right inside this door? 22 A. I was right inside the door and I put my lunch 23 in the refrigerator. 24 Q. Where is the door to the locker room itself? 25 A. Right here. 116 1 Q. Where is the door to the break room? From the 2 outside to -- 3 A. To the pressroom? 4 Q. Yeah. 5 A. That would be there. Right here. 6 Q. So you're standing in this area right here? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. All right. What happened? 9 A. I caught Wesbecker opening the door with the -- 10 and I didn't know it was an AK-47 at the time, but he was 11 pushing the door open with his shoulder and the gun like this. 12 Q. Was that door a solid door or could you actually 13 see Joseph Wesbecker? 14 A. No. You could see through it. It was 15 Plexiglas, I think, and you could see through the door. 16 Q. Could you see Joseph Wesbecker as he walked 17 through the door? 18 A. A profile. Left side of his face. 19 Q. Did you recognize that as being Joseph Wesbecker 20 as he stood there opening the door? 21 A. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. 22 Q. Explain to the jury how he opened the door. 23 A. He was just opening it with his AK-47, and I 24 just -- instinct told me that he was going to do some shooting 25 and I just dove to the floor. 117 1 Q. When you saw the gun? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. What did you see as Joseph Wesbecker got the 4 door open with the gun? 5 A. I didn't see him that long. I was already on 6 the floor by then. 7 Q. Why did you hit the floor? 8 A. I saw a gun and I saw a man coming in with it, 9 and I hit the floor. 10 Q. Then what happened? 11 A. Well, there were a few shots and I can't count 12 them much. As I went down, Herman Hoffmann was on my left and 13 we went down together on the floor. And I could hear some 14 shots and I heard Herman or Bill -- I call him Herman -- 15 grunt, and I said something to him, you know, be all right, be 16 quiet or something like that, and there was a lull in the 17 shooting. And I didn't know if I was hit or not, but there 18 was a lull and I wanted to see if I could get up. And when I 19 got up and headed toward the locker room door again, and I saw 20 Mike Campbell, I think Mike was on -- I thought Mike was on 21 his knees, but he said he was sitting in a chair. And I said 22 something to Mike about going -- getting EMS and then he -- I 23 went back to the locker room and when I opened the door, 24 Mickey Kelly was right inside the door. I think I might have 25 hit him with the door when I went in. And there were still 118 1 people in the locker room, and I told everybody to get out and 2 we all left the locker room together. 3 Q. Let's back up if we can. Who was in the break 4 room area? And can you locate where they were, Chuck? 5 A. I wasn't there long enough to know at the time 6 who was in there. I couldn't have been in there ten seconds 7 at the most, but, you know, as I know now, who was in there. 8 Q. All right. For that ten-second period, did you 9 see anybody that you recognized -- 10 A. I'm really not -- 11 Q. -- looking back on it? 12 A. I'm really not sure. I don't know how to answer 13 that. Nothing really sticks out in my mind. 14 Q. Was the -- you had physically gone and put your 15 lunch in the refrigerator? 16 A. Uh-huh. 17 Q. And then had moved back out of the way toward 18 the locker room door? 19 A. Uh-huh. 20 Q. Before you saw Mr. Wesbecker? 21 A. Yeah. And I saw him instantly out of the corner 22 of my eye. 23 Q. Did you see the gun at the same time? 24 A. Yes, I did. 25 Q. Was he already in the process of opening the 119 1 door when you first saw him? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Was he already in the door -- 4 A. No. 5 Q. -- when you first saw him? 6 A. No. 7 Q. How long was it before you heard any shots 8 after you first saw him? 9 A. Not very long. 10 Q. Minutes or instant? 11 A. Pretty instant. 12 Q. Describe to the jury what went on there during 13 the first barrage of shooting. 14 A. I really don't know. I'm laying on the floor 15 and hearing the shots and he hit a cold water pipe right next 16 to my head and it was spewing on me and it was really cold, 17 but it kept me alert, I think. And that -- that and what 18 Herman said when he got hit. And I have sort of bad hearing 19 out of my left ear and my left ear was facing that door. So 20 if there was any other noises in there, I don't know. I 21 didn't hear them with the water coming down on my head, and it 22 was only that far away and it was streaming on me pretty 23 strong. 24 Q. Were you on top of or underneath of Herman 25 Hoffmann? 120 1 A. No. He was at my left. 2 Q. Do you remember whether you were shot during 3 that first barrage of shots? 4 A. I have no idea when I was shot. 5 Q. Did you feel it -- 6 A. No. 7 Q. -- when you were shot? 8 A. No. 9 Q. When did you first learn that you were shot? 10 A. When I was walking down the hallway out of the 11 locker room, somebody said, "You're hit," and then I -- about 12 the same time I felt some blood running down my leg. 13 Q. Okay. Let's go back. You say there was an 14 initial barrage of shots. Can you give us any estimation of 15 how many shots went off in that break room? 16 A. No, I really don't. 17 Q. How big is that break room, Chuck? 18 A. Not very big. It's maybe 12 feet wide and 15, 19 20-foot long, maybe. 20 Q. Is it as big as this jury box? 21 A. Just about that size, maybe a little longer. 22 Probably about from here to that wall and maybe 20-foot long. 23 I don't know if it was 20-foot long. 24 Q. And how many men were in there when this 25 slaughter started? 121 1 A. Well, only thing I can tell you is what I can 2 read because I don't know how many men were in there. I just 3 wasn't in there long enough to know that. 4 Q. Okay. Did you get out before the second barrage 5 started or were you still there in the second barrage? 6 A. I think I got out while he was loading, but I 7 didn't know that until I talked to a few -- somebody. 8 Q. Did you ever see Joseph Wesbecker after you hit 9 the ground? 10 A. No, sir. 11 Q. Were you aware of anybody -- any other 12 co-employees there other than Herman Hoffmann? As you were 13 there; not what you know now. 14 A. State that again. 15 Q. As you were laying there, the water's hitting 16 you in the face, you know Herman Hoffmann is beside you 17 because you can hear him grunting. Did he say something? 18 A. He just grunted. 19 Q. As you were laying there, did you know of 20 anybody else that was in there with you? 21 A. No. 22 Q. But it was -- how many tables were in the room? 23 A. I don't know. There are usually three tables, I 24 believe. 25 Q. And there's a refrigerator? 122 1 A. Uh-huh. 2 Q. Is there a microwave-type area in there? 3 A. Yeah. I think there was a small microwave in 4 there. 5 Q. Is there a Coke machine or anything like that? 6 A. There was at one time. I believe at that time I 7 think they had taken it out because it didn't work half the 8 time. 9 Q. Was there a sink? 10 A. I don't think so. 11 Q. You guys weren't washing your dishes? 12 A. No, sir. 13 Q. Describe to the jury the route that you took 14 out. 15 A. Out of the building? 16 Q. Yes. 17 A. After I went through the locker room? 18 Q. Uh-huh. 19 A. Went down the hall past the elevator, back out 20 past the guard shack that I passed to go in, and right to 21 Broadway. 22 Q. Okay. You can go sit back down. 23 Were you outside before somebody came, any 24 emergency medical people came to your attention? 25 A. I think so. 123 1 Q. How long were you in the hospital the first 2 time? 3 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, may we approach the 4 bench? 5 JUDGE POTTER: Wait just a second, sir. 6 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 7 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, we object to testimony 8 as to how long Mr. Gorman was in the hospital. It relates not 9 to liability but to damages. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith? 11 MR. SMITH: I will just ask it concisely. 12 JUDGE POTTER: As long as he keeps it real 13 short, I'm going to allow him to round it out with a little 14 bit of testimony; how long you were in the hospital, can you 15 work, that kind of stuff, that objection is overruled. 16 Q. How long were you in the hospital? 17 A. I think I was in the hospital for a week the 18 first time. Then they sent me home and they had to -- on my 19 gunshot wound they had to take out all the dead flesh, and I 20 had to go home for a couple of weeks and it had to be packed 21 and repacked three times a day. And my daughter is an RN and 22 she did that for me, and I did that at home for a couple 23 weeks. And then before -- I went back to the other surgery 24 again and then I was back in the hospital again for a few 25 days. I'm really not sure. It's kind of fuzzy how long I was 124 1 in the hospital. And then after that, I had to go back in and 2 have rotator cuff surgery done. I tore both rotator cuffs in 3 my shoulders. 4 Q. When you hit the ground? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. Do you know why Joseph Wesbecker shot you? 7 A. No, sir. 8 Q. Did you ever do anything to cause him to shoot 9 you? 10 A. No, sir. 11 Q. Did you ever harbor any ill will against Joseph 12 Wesbecker before September 14th, 1989? 13 A. No, sir. 14 Q. Do you know of any ill will he harbored against 15 you? 16 A. No, sir. 17 Q. Were you on the ground when you were shot? 18 A. I don't know. 19 Q. Did you ever lunge toward or make any move 20 toward Joseph Wesbecker to try to stop him? 21 A. No, I didn't. 22 Q. That's all we have, Your Honor. 23 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher? 24 25 125 1 2 EXAMINATION ___________ 3 4 BY_MR._STOPHER: __ ___ ________ 5 Q. Mr. Gorman, I'll be brief; there are a few 6 things I wanted to ask you, however. Let me go back to the 7 folder work that you were talking about early on, sir. You 8 were describing a folder man; am I correct? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. And if I understand correctly, after Mr. Shea 11 was the owner of the facility, on those long presses in Area 12 One -- there were actually three real long ones; right, sir? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. And there was Press One, Press Two and Press 15 Three; right? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. And there was a crew for each press; am I right? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. And at times in the past, crews had been as 20 large as perhaps seven, eight, nine people? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. And in 1988, 1989, the crews were four people; 23 am I right? 24 A. Four or five, maybe. I don't know if they were 25 down to four or not. 126 1 Q. All right, sir. There was the man in charge; 2 right? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Sometimes called the MIC; right? 5 A. Right. 6 Q. And the man in charge or the MIC is the folder 7 operator; right? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. If I say MIC or man in charge or folder operator 10 that's one person; am I right? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Okay. He's the head of the crew; right? 13 A. Right. 14 Q. Then there's a second MIC or a second man in 15 charge; am I right about that? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. Then there's an ink man and then there's a reel 18 man; am I right? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. Okay. The reel man would be down in the 21 basement putting the big reels of paper on the web so it would 22 go upstairs into the presses; right? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. Now, if I understand correctly, Mr. Gorman, you 25 would frequently work as the MIC or the folder man; correct? 127 1 A. Most of the time I was the second man. 2 Q. Most of the time you were the second man. All 3 right. So you would be the second MIC; right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And did the second MIC or second man in charge 6 also operate the folder? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. And if I understand correctly, the first man in 9 charge and the second man in charge rotated every half hour? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. In other words, if you were the first man in 12 charge, you'd only operate the folder for 30 minutes, and then 13 after 30 minutes approximately the second man in charge would 14 operate the folder; right? 15 A. That's about the way it worked most of the time. 16 Q. All right, sir. Now, sir, if I understand 17 correctly, the MIC, whether it's first or second, got more pay 18 than the ink man or the reel man; am I right? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. How much more pay did they get? 21 A. Five dollars, I think. 22 Q. Five dollars an hour? 23 A. A day. 24 Q. Five dollars a day? 25 A. I believe that's what it was. 128 1 Q. In other words, if you were the first man in 2 charge, you'd make about fifty or sixty cents more per hour 3 than the man who's sitting down in the basement on the reel; 4 correct? 5 A. If that's what five dollars a day times eight. 6 Q. Five divided by eight is roughly sixty some-odd 7 cents. I didn't go to MIT, either, but that's pretty close, 8 sir, do you agree? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. So if you were the man in charge you only got 11 less than a dollar an hour more than the other member of the 12 crew, the ink man or the reel man? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. How long approximately, Mr. Gorman, had that 15 been the pay difference between working the folder and working 16 the reel? 17 A. It always had been five dollars. 18 Q. No raise that you can remember, sir? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Always five dollars a shift to work the harder 21 job rather than the easier job? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. Now, if I understand correctly, sir, you did not 24 know Joseph Wesbecker well because you never had an 25 opportunity to work around him enough to be around him much; 129 1 is that a fair statement, sir? 2 A. That's a fair statement. 3 Q. Other people there were pretty good friends of 4 his either in the past or in recent years; correct? 5 A. Other people? 6 Q. Other people besides yourself, sir. 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. Okay. You weren't one of his close associates? 9 A. No, sir; I wasn't. 10 Q. You didn't work with him and you didn't see him 11 socially; am I right? 12 A. That's right. 13 Q. All right, sir. Now, sir, if I understand 14 correctly, when you were in the break room there were shots 15 fired, some of which hit you, unfortunately; correct, sir? 16 A. I guess that's where I got shot. 17 Q. All right, sir. And you told us, sir, that you 18 did not know how many shots were fired either at you or at 19 other people in the break room while you were there; did I 20 understand you correctly? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. Did I understand, however, sir, that the shots 23 that were fired were methodical? 24 A. That's probably the way I would say it. They 25 seemed like they were. It wasn't no rat-a-tat-tat thing; it 130 1 was pop, pop, pop, like that. 2 Q. And then if I understand correctly, sir, there 3 was a lull in that shooting? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. And you got up off the floor, ran through the 6 locker room door; am I right? 7 A. Yes, sir. I didn't -- I got up and I walked. 8 Q. You walked to the door? And when you went into 9 the locker room I think I understood you to say that you 10 bumped immediately into Mickey Kelly? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. If I understand correctly, sir, you then said to 13 the people in the locker room, "Wesbecker's shooting everybody 14 up," and everybody took off and ran; is that accurate, sir? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Those men that were in the locker room did 17 escape and you escaped out through the door and out by what I 18 think you've already called Poodle Park; am I correct, sir? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. Those are all the questions I have, Mr. Gorman. 21 Thank you, sir. 22 MR. SMITH: Just one question briefly, Your 23 Honor. 24 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. 25 131 1 2 FURTHER_EXAMINATION _______ ___________ 3 4 BY_MR._SMITH: __ ___ ______ 5 Q. Do I understand it, Mr. Gorman, that a folder 6 man would only work one-half hour at a time; is that right? 7 A. This is all after the job is started up and 8 you're running good books and everything is settled down. At 9 the beginning of the job the folder man might be up there four 10 or five hours without a break setting a job up. 11 Q. But that would only be in setting it up? 12 A. Right. 13 Q. There's no stress involved in setting a job up, 14 it's once the press starts running that you have the added 15 stress; is that right? 16 A. That's when it's easy. 17 Q. Okay. Why does it get easy? 18 A. Because once the job is laid down and you're 19 running down and you're putting down good books. The hardest 20 part is setting it up, getting it run right to start at the 21 beginning. 22 Q. And generally what's required in setting it up? 23 A. You have a lay-down. You have to be able to 24 understand the lay-down and see if you have to change any 25 angle bars. You have to know where the paper sits in the 132 1 reel. There are a lot of variables. 2 Q. You liked it? 3 A. I liked it. 4 Q. You liked being the folder man? 5 A. Yes, I did. 6 Q. There were other pressmen there that liked being 7 the folder man? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. Because it was the most skilled position at the 10 press? 11 A. Yes, it was. 12 Q. That's all we have, Your Honor. 13 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much. You may 14 step down. 15 Ladies and gentlemen, we're going to take a 16 lunch recess at this time. We'll stand in recess till 2:15. 17 As I've mentioned to you-all before, do not permit anyone to 18 speak with or communicate with you on any topic connected with 19 this trial. Do not discuss it among yourselves and do not 20 form or express opinions about it. We'll stand in recess till 21 2:15. 22 (LUNCH RECESS; BENCH DISCUSSION) 23 MR. SMITH: When I got back from lunch, Mike 24 Campbell, one of our clients, advised me that his wife had 25 overheard a conversation at the metal detector where 133 1 apparently a former Standard Gravure employee who Mike 2 133 3 Campbell knew and knew he'd been on mental leave said that he 4 did not like what he was hearing in the courtroom, or 5 something of that nature, and that he wanted to come in and 6 straighten this thing out. Apparently, the guard -- this was 7 communicated to the guard. The guard didn't let him in, and 8 he said, "Well, I'm going to come back after lunch and 9 straighten this out." Mike was concerned because he knew he 10 was a -- had been on disability for a mental condition while 11 at Standard Gravure. 12 MR. STOPHER: Can we go off the record? 13 (OFF THE RECORD) 14 JUDGE POTTER: See if we can find out who the 15 sheriff was at the metal detector. 16 MR. STOPHER: The security person, Vanessa. 17 MR. SMITH: Apparently it was Mike Campbell's 18 wife that overheard it. 19 JUDGE POTTER: I tell you what, it might be 20 easier if we do this in my office. 21 (JURORS EXCUSED; THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS 22 OCCURRED IN ROOM 148; SHERIFF MOSS ENTERS ROOM) 23 JUDGE POTTER: One of the people who is a 24 plaintiff in this action said that somebody came to the metal 25 detector this morning and you wouldn't let him in and he 134 1 thinks -- 2 MS. ZETTLER: Is this something that the press 3 is going to have access to? 4 JUDGE POTTER: No. You-all are keeping these 5 yourselves till it's all over. 6 MS. ZETTLER: Okay. 7 JUDGE POTTER: Some guy came and apparently they 8 believed he was another person from Standard Gravure on a 9 mental leave? Do you remember the guy? 10 SHERIFF MOSS: Yes, sir. I just let him in the 11 courtroom. He has on a light green top and pants. He talked 12 with me and said he had been at home reading the newspaper, he 13 had some concerns about what he had been reading and he wanted 14 to come and listen to find out where they were getting the 15 information. 16 JUDGE POTTER: But he went through the metal 17 detector and everything okay. Could you call over and have 18 somebody else come and watch him a little closer this 19 afternoon? 20 SHERIFF MOSS: I had him take out everything in 21 his pockets. He didn't go off. He said he had spent two 22 years in the VA Hospital and he said everybody thinks he's 23 crazy. He had a little notebook. You-all just broke for 24 lunch, and he said, "What time do they come back." I said, 25 "2:15." So he wrote that down and he kind of stood there and 135 1 talked with me for about 20 minutes. I kind of let him go on 2 and on so I could get a feel about him. But I did have some 3 concerns about it. 4 MS. ZETTLER: Did he say he was coming to 5 straighten things out? 6 SHERIFF MOSS: Yeah. He didn't know from the 7 newspaper where they were getting their information, and he 8 wanted to come in and find out so he could get the record 9 straight. 10 JUDGE POTTER: I'm sure there is some concern 11 about something -- somebody being hurt, but you're on top of 12 that. I'm concerned as much as anything about somebody making 13 a scene and creating a problem, so if you could have -- you 14 know, just call over there and see if they could have somebody 15 come over and... You were on top of it; you were way ahead of 16 it. Thank you very much. 17 (FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS OCCURRED IN OPEN COURT) 18 SHERIFF CECIL: The jury is now entering. All 19 jurors are present. 20 JUDGE POTTER: Please be seated. 21 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, may we approach the 22 bench? 23 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 24 MR. STOPHER: I've just relayed this incident to 25 my paralegals and one of them tells me that she overheard some 136 1 part of the conversation and that the man said to the guard 2 "Well, I've got something that I want to say," but he didn't 3 ever say what it was. I have obviously no idea which way this 4 thing cuts, but no matter which way it cuts, it's fair that 5 whoever it cuts against I would like to recommend that we do 6 something to present this man whether it's prejudiced to one 7 party or the other. 8 JUDGE POTTER: Ms. Zettler? 9 MS. ZETTLER: I don't know what we could do 10 short of having him escorted out, which would be to make a 11 scene. 12 MR. STOPHER: I would suggest that we take 13 adjournment very briefly, Judge, and you just interview him 14 and admonish him not to say anything. 15 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 16 JUDGE POTTER: Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, 17 we're going to take a ten-minute recess. I'm going to give 18 you the same admonition I've given you before. Do not permit 19 anybody to speak to you or communicate with you on any topic 20 connected with this trial and any attempt to do so should be 21 communicated to me. 22 (RECESS; BENCH DISCUSSION) 23 JUDGE POTTER: If it weren't for the press, I 24 would do it in here. What I'm going to do is have the sheriff 25 close the jury room door and then I'm going to bring him into 137 1 the other place, and would just two of you come in with me and 2 I'll get the sheriff to -- I'm afraid if the sheriffs approach 3 him in here if he is concerned... 4 MR. STOPHER: I think the risk of approaching 5 him in advance is far less than the risk of trying to approach 6 him afterwards. I think the sheriff can just simply say the 7 Court would like to talk with you, and if he resists or 8 refuses, then he's going to be escorted out. 9 JUDGE POTTER: Yeah, but the problem is it is a 10 public proceeding, he has an absolute right to be here without 11 in any way being intimidated. 12 MR. STOPHER: Not if he has expressed an intent 13 to straighten this out. 14 MS. ZETTLER: Bill Thomas. Mike Campbell told 15 me that. 16 JUDGE POTTER: Let's take a break in there and 17 we'll get a rather large male sheriff. Just the two of you 18 come in there with the Court Reporter. 19 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS OCCURRED IN ROOM 148; 20 MR. THOMAS AND SHERIFF MOSS ENTERED THE ROOM) 21 JUDGE POTTER: You're Mr. Thomas? 22 MR. THOMAS: Yes, sir. 23 JUDGE POTTER: How are you, Mr. Thomas? Mr. 24 Thomas, I'm Judge Potter, and I'm the judge in the Court out 25 there. And I don't want to hurt your feelings by what I'm 138 1 going to say, okay, but do you understand that someone had 2 reported to me that you might make a statement or something 3 during the trial or maybe they misunderstood what you were 4 about, but I just want to make sure you understand that a 5 member of the audience can't make any kind of disturbance or 6 make some kind of statement during the trial. 7 MR. THOMAS: I understand. That will be fine. 8 JUDGE POTTER: I think somebody heard you say 9 something. I asked Vanessa, she said, "No, there's no 10 problem, so I just thought I'd get it straight with you." Is 11 that okay? 12 MR. THOMAS: That will be fine. I think I 13 probably know the individual and I was just expressing some 14 things that the individual had inquired about, so I understand 15 and I -- yeah. If that hadn't been -- 16 JUDGE POTTER: Sometimes people think they're 17 doing a favor. I think you used the word "I want to get 18 something straight" or find out something, but I don't know 19 what -- the phrase you used, but it led somebody to believe 20 that you might say something, you know, that's not right or I 21 don't know what they thought you might say. But it's a public 22 place. You have an absolute right to be here and I hope you 23 enjoy yourself, sir. 24 MR. THOMAS: Okay, Judge. Thank you very much. 25 Please feel comfortable. I will not interrupt in any way. 139 1 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Thank you, sir. 2 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED IN THE COURTROOM) 3 SHERIFF CECIL: The jury is reentering. All 4 jurors are present, Court is back in session. 5 JUDGE POTTER: Please be seated. 6 Mr. Smith, do you want to call your next 7 witness? 8 MR. SMITH: Your Honor, the plaintiffs will call 9 Andrew Pointer. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Pointer, would you raise your 11 right hand, sir. 12 13 ANDREW POINTER, after first being duly sworn, 14 was examined and testified as follows: 15 16 JUDGE POTTER: Would you have a seat, keep your 17 voice up good and loud and state your name clearly for the 18 jurors. 19 MR. POINTER: My name is Andrew Pointer. 20 21 EXAMINATION ___________ 22 23 BY_MR._SMITH: __ ___ ______ 24 Q. How old a man are you, Mr. Pointer? 25 A. Fifty-five. 140 1 Q. Where do you live? 2 A. 1607 Olive Street in Louisville. 3 Q. Do you have children? 4 A. One daughter. 5 Q. Are you employed at present, Mr. Pointer? 6 A. No, I'm not. 7 Q. Why not? 8 A. Because of injury. 9 Q. Are you talking about your injury of September 10 14th, 1989? 11 A. Yes, I am. 12 Q. Where were you employed on September 14th, 1989? 13 A. Standard Gravure. 14 Q. And when did you begin your work employment with 15 Standard Gravure? 16 A. April 1967. 17 Q. So you had been working at Standard Gravure 18 approximately 22 years when this injury occurred? 19 A. Yes, sir; I did. 20 Q. What was your job at Standard Gravure, Mr. 21 Pointer? 22 A. Paper handler. 23 Q. What is the difference in a paper handler and 24 those pressmen who handle paper? 25 A. We helped push the rolls up to each press, 141 1 whatever rolls they were using that particular day and just 2 keep filled up, you know, so that they wouldn't run out, and 3 tie up cores and some other different things, like when a web 4 breaks in the pressroom, you go up and help the man in the 5 pressroom to help, if the web breaks, take it up to the 6 printer. 7 Q. I'm having difficulty hearing you. If you could 8 speak a little slower and a little louder, that will probably 9 help us. 10 A. Right. Okay. 11 Q. I'll try to do the same thing. 12 A. All right. 13 Q. Before you went with Standard Gravure in 1967, 14 what was your employment, sir? 15 A. Brown & Williamson. 16 Q. And what did you do for them? 17 A. Tray hanger. 18 Q. As a paper handler at Standard Gravure, were you 19 a member of a union? 20 A. Yes, I was. 21 Q. What union was that, sir? 22 A. Local 89. 23 Q. Of what group? 24 A. Teamsters. 25 Q. Did you have duties in connection with unloading 142 1 paper from trucks and warehousing it and getting it from the 2 warehouse to the area where it's going to be used? 3 A. Yes, I did. Yes. I loaded from the loading 4 dock to the basement. 5 Q. Can you give the jury an approximation of how 6 much time you spent in the pressrooms versus as part of other 7 duties with your job? 8 A. Excuse me now? 9 Q. How much time were you actually in the pressroom 10 taking paper to the press and helping them get the paper on 11 the press versus unloading paper and dealing with paper in the 12 warehouse? 13 A. I'll say in the pressroom itself about two and a 14 half hours. 15 Q. Each day? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And were your shifts -- I don't believe I've 18 asked anybody, were you running five-day shifts there or 19 six-day shifts? 20 A. It was six-day shifts. 21 Q. So were you getting overtime? 22 A. Well, yes. 23 Q. And were you working six-day shifts in September 24 of 1989, sir? 25 A. Five-day. 143 1 Q. When did it change from five-day shifts to 2 six-day -- from six-day to five-day? 3 A. I'm sorry. I misunderstood you. I was only 4 working five days, but they had six-day operation there. 5 Q. So the plant worked six days a week? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. But most of the employees were on 8 five-day-a-week shifts? 9 A. Right. 10 Q. Did you get much overtime as a paper handler? 11 A. Yes. More than you wanted. 12 Q. Did you like your job at Standard Gravure, Mr. 13 Pointer? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. You hesitated. 16 A. Yes. I liked it. 17 Q. What about the job did you like? 18 A. Well, they paid well. 19 Q. Anything else that you -- did you like the 20 people? 21 A. Yes. I had some real good friends there. 22 Q. Would you have much association with the 23 pressmen and the people working the presses? 24 A. Yes, I would. 25 Q. How often would that occur on a daily basis? 144 1 A. Daily basis. 2 Q. Did you know Joseph Wesbecker? 3 A. Not personally, but I knew him just from working 4 there. 5 Q. Do you know whether or not you ever had any 6 direct one-on-one communications with Mr. Wesbecker? 7 A. Not any at all. 8 Q. You don't recall any occasions before September 9 14th that you spoke with him? 10 A. Just saying, "How you doing." That was all. 11 Just to speak to each other when we passed by each other; that 12 was all. 13 Q. Did you and he ever have any unfriendly words? 14 A. No, not any. 15 Q. Did you ever see, yourself, Mr. Wesbecker having 16 arguments or fights or disagreements with anybody there on the 17 pressroom floor? 18 A. No, I didn't. 19 Q. Did you ever see, personally yourself, any guns 20 on the premises at Standard Gravure, Mr. Pointer? 21 A. No, not any. 22 Q. Did you ever witness an occasion when someone 23 brought a blank gun onto the premises and was scaring people 24 out there? 25 A. No. No. 145 1 Q. What time did you go to work on September 14th, 2 1989, Mr. Pointer? 3 A. I had been there at 12:30. 4 Q. 12:30 A.M.? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And how long was your work schedule? 7 A. To nine A.M. 8 Q. And what were you doing at the time you were 9 shot? 10 A. Well, I was just told that I had to work another 11 shift, and I prepared to leave to go pick up my car and move 12 it off the meter. 13 Q. You were in between shifts? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And were going to move your car? 16 A. Right. 17 Q. Who was your supervisor, Mr. Pointer? 18 A. Kenny Rich. 19 Q. And how long had he been your supervisor? 20 A. Oh, approximately about three or four years, I'm 21 guessing. 22 Q. And was he the gentleman that advised you that 23 you were going to have to work two shifts? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Was that something that normally occurred? 146 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Did you expect on that Thursday to work a second 3 shift? Had you had any advance warning of that? 4 A. Yes. One of the employees told me that probably 5 I would have to work over the next day. 6 Q. And did you agree to do that? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Would that have been an overtime situation for 9 you? 10 A. Yes, it would. 11 Q. Where were you when you first saw Joseph 12 Wesbecker on the morning of September 14th, 1989? 13 A. I was approaching the tunnel area when I 14 happened to see a figure coming towards me. 15 Q. When you saw Mr. Wesbecker, did you recognize 16 Mr. Wesbecker? 17 A. Not till after I was shot. 18 Q. Were you in the basement area when you were 19 shot? 20 A. No. I just had left the basement area and I was 21 approaching the tunnel at the time. 22 Q. Is there a step up from the basement area to the 23 tunnel? 24 A. Excuse me? 25 Q. Is there an incline or some type of -- 147 1 A. No. No. No step, no. 2 Q. Come down here, Mr. Pointer, and let's see if we 3 can look at this exhibit and point out to the jury where you 4 were when you were shot. 5 A. I was in this -- right in this area right here. 6 Q. Were you in this area or in this tunnel here? 7 A. Okay. In the tunnel area. Yes. I was in the 8 tunnel area. 9 Q. Were you between the basement and the bindery 10 area, or the Number One reel room? 11 A. I was between the storage room and the basement 12 where the grinding room was at, between that area and the 13 shipping floor. 14 Q. Which direction were you going, Andrew? 15 A. I would be going this way. 16 Q. And how far was Mr. Wesbecker from you when you 17 first saw him? 18 A. About 25 feet, I think it was. 19 Q. All right. Twenty-five feet. Would this be 20 twenty-five feet, approximately? 21 A. I would say it was about to that back door 22 there. Maybe 25 to 50 feet, something like that. 23 Q. Okay. All right. And did you notice anything 24 about Mr. Wesbecker when you first saw him? 25 A. I didn't really get a good look. As soon as I 148 1 raised my head up, that's when I was hit. 2 Q. Were you moving or were you stopped? 3 A. I was moving; when I was shot I stopped. 4 Q. Well, but were you walking? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Had you been walking? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Was your head down? 9 A. Kind of down; right. 10 Q. Why was your head down? 11 A. Well, I really didn't want to work over. I 12 didn't feel like working over another shift. 13 Q. So tell the jury what happened. 14 A. Well, like I said, I was walking, approaching 15 the tunnel and I was bringing my head up and I could see a 16 figure coming towards me, and before I could raise all the way 17 up to visualize who it was, that's when I was shot. 18 Q. Did you see the gun before you were shot? 19 A. Yeah. I could see it going up like that. 20 Q. How much time elapsed between the time the gun 21 went up and the time you were shot? 22 A. Just a matter of seconds. Just a matter of 23 seconds. 24 Q. Were you still moving at that time? 25 A. Yes, I was. 149 1 Q. Was Mr. Wesbecker moving towards you at that 2 time? 3 A. Yes, he was. 4 Q. How much distance was there between the two of 5 you when you were shot? 6 A. Oh, right around 20 feet, 25, something like 7 that. 8 Q. So it would be like -- 9 A. That door. 10 Q. -- this back door. And did you see him before 11 you were -- before he raised the gun up? What drew your 12 attention to him? 13 A. I just seen the figure coming towards me. I 14 didn't get my head up in time enough to see him. As soon as I 15 seen the gun going up, that's when he shot. 16 Q. Did you see Mr. Wesbecker's face before he shot 17 you? 18 A. No. No, I did not. 19 Q. Then what happened after you were shot? 20 A. After I was shot I kind of bent over and said, 21 "Oh, I've been shot." 22 Q. And what did Mr. Wesbecker do? 23 A. He just walked past me with a blank stare. 24 Q. How wide is this area that you were in? 25 A. Oh, about ten feet. 150 1 Q. Ten feet wide? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Now, did Mr. Wesbecker -- you're shot and you 4 ducked over? 5 A. Right. Kind of like this. 6 Q. And you stopped moving? 7 A. Right. 8 Q. And what did Mr. Wesbecker do? 9 A. He kept on coming and walking up to me and 10 walked on past. 11 Q. He came up to you? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. After he had shot you? 14 A. Right. 15 Q. How close did he get to you, Andrew? 16 A. About like this. 17 Q. Are you telling us that he shot you and walked 18 right next to you? 19 A. Right. Yes, he did. 20 Q. Did you say anything to him when he walked by 21 you? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Did he say anything to you? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Did you look at him? 151 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Did you look into his face? 3 A. Right. 4 Q. Did you recognize him as Joe Wesbecker then? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. What was the look on his face? 7 A. It was a scary look, the look in his eyes, the 8 way he was looking. 9 Q. Can you give us any better idea about that? 10 A. Just blank. His face was just, oh, just real -- 11 just white looking. Like he didn't have no blood in his body 12 at all. His face was just real white. 13 Q. What about his eyes? 14 A. His eyes was kind of -- he didn't blink or 15 nothing; he just stared straight ahead. He just stared at me 16 the whole time; he didn't blink the whole time at all. 17 Q. Was he looking at you or past you? 18 A. He was looking at me until he got past. 19 Q. Was Mr. Wesbecker walking fast or slow? 20 A. Slow. 21 Q. Abnormally slow to you? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And did you say anything else to him -- 24 A. No. 25 Q. -- other than, what, "I've been shot"? 152 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Did he make any kind of response? 3 A. No, not any at all. 4 Q. Then what happened? 5 A. After he passed me, he disappeared in the reel 6 room for about five minutes, and I was walking back toward 7 that area and I seen him approaching the pressroom steps. 8 Q. Which way did you walk, back in the direction 9 you were walking? 10 A. Back to the basement where I came from, back to 11 the basement. Yeah. I walked back to the basement where I 12 was at. 13 Q. So you turned around and walked back the way you 14 were going? 15 A. Right. 16 Q. And you walked back in the direction that Mr. 17 Wesbecker went? 18 A. Right. 19 Q. Why did you do that? 20 A. I don't know. I guess I was in shock, I guess. 21 One thing, I wondered where he was at. I didn't see or hear 22 nothing; it was quiet. 23 Q. Then what happened after you got back into this 24 area here? 25 A. Well, I seen him approaching the steps. 153 1 Q. These steps? 2 A. Pressroom steps; right. 3 Q. What happened there? 4 A. Richard Barger was coming down the steps and I 5 seen him shot him about five times -- five rounds went off. 6 And he just fell backwards down the steps. 7 Q. Where were you in relation to the steps at the 8 time Mr. Barger was shot? 9 A. Oh, I was 15 or 20 feet from the steps, I was 10 standing there. 11 Q. In what direction would you have been in, in 12 this area or down in this area somewhere? 13 A. I was about -- 14 Q. I think these are the steps. 15 A. Oh, okay. I was somewhere right along here 16 when Mr. Barger was shot. 17 Q. Did Mr. Wesbecker ever look back at you? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Did Mr. Wesbecker say anything to Richard 20 Barger? 21 A. Yeah. He said, "I'm sorry, Dickie," and walked 22 on up to the pressroom. 23 Q. Did he walk over Mr. Barger? 24 A. Yes, he did. 25 Q. Did he have to physically step over him? 154 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Did he say anything else? 3 A. No. 4 Q. And how many times did he shoot Mr. Barger? 5 A. I can count of about five. 6 Q. All right. Then what happened after Mr. 7 Wesbecker went up the steps? 8 A. I heard some more shots went off. 9 Q. What would have been the next floor up there 10 where those steps were? 11 A. The pressroom. 12 Q. Where did you hear the shots in relation to the 13 pressroom? Would it have been Area One or Area Two? 14 A. Area One. 15 Q. What else did you hear? 16 A. Well, he went up in the pressroom, I heard 17 additional more shots went off and about, like, two minutes I 18 heard some more. And I guess two or three minutes passed and 19 I heard about forty, fifty rounds going off. 20 Q. Did you testify in your deposition that you 21 heard laughing? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. When was that? 24 A. After he went in the pressroom and shot the 25 other victims, then I heard him laughing. 155 1 Q. What did you do at this time? 2 A. I'm still standing there in shock, just 3 wondering what's going on. 4 Q. Did you drop to your knees or did you lay down? 5 A. After I got pretty weak and wanted something 6 cold to drink, I went back and laid down in the area I was 7 shot in. 8 Q. How long did you lay there? 9 A. Oh, about two or three minutes. 10 Q. Then what happened? 11 A. I tried to get up and go back in the area where 12 I could be seen quicker, but I couldn't get up, so I had to 13 crawl on my back. 14 Q. Had to crawl on your back? 15 A. Right. 16 Q. Where did you crawl to? 17 A. I crawled back to the reel room. 18 Q. Back to where you had been where Mr. Barger was 19 shot? 20 A. Yes. Uh-huh. 21 Q. And what happened then? 22 A. Well, I laid there and I kept hollering for 23 help. So security was walking down CJ conveyer belt over 24 there and I hollered for them, and so they came down where I 25 was at and they went for a stretcher and came back and loaded 156 1 me on it and carried me outside. 2 Q. Who loaded you on the stretcher, EMS or 3 security? 4 A. No. It was one of the guards, and it might have 5 been the head guy on day shift of security. I'm not sure who 6 he was, but I knew it was one of the guards. Angela -- I 7 forget her last name. She was on guard that day. 8 Q. Was it somebody in uniform? 9 A. Yes. She had on a uniform; right. 10 Q. Where were you shot? 11 A. In the lower abdomen. 12 Q. Did the bullet pass through you? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Do you know why Joseph Wesbecker shot you, 15 Andrew? 16 A. No. I don't know why. 17 Q. Did you ever do anything to Joseph Wesbecker? 18 A. No, I did not. 19 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Wesbecker in an agitated or 20 nervous state? 21 A. I've seen him -- well, I didn't see him. That's 22 just hearsay that he got awful nervous one night when somebody 23 came up behind him and scared him. 24 Q. But did you see that yourself? 25 A. I did not see that. 157 1 Q. That's something you only heard? 2 A. Right. 3 Q. Would this have been something that you would 4 have heard after or before this shooting? 5 A. Before the shooting. 6 Q. You have testified in your deposition, Mr. 7 Pointer, that there was a man by the name of Bill Hunter. 8 A. John Hunter. 9 Q. John Hunter who told you that Mr. Wesbecker had 10 told him that Mr. Wesbecker was going to come back and get 11 everybody while he was out on LTD; is that right? 12 A. He was in the office -- well, what I hear I 13 think what Mr. Hunter told me -- I'm not for sure; I think it 14 was him -- that he was going to come back in the office and 15 get all the foremans. 16 Q. And when did you hear that? 17 A. That was back in '88. 18 Q. Did you take that threat seriously? 19 A. Well, not really. 20 Q. Why? 21 A. We hadn't had no -- I hadn't heard any 22 complaints about him being, you know, that type of person or 23 nothing. 24 Q. Well, have you talked to Mr. Hunter about this 25 since then? 158 1 A. I was a little confused. I think it was Mr. 2 Hunter; I'm not sure. I think it was him that I talked to. 3 Q. Could Mr. Hunter have been talking about Mr. 4 Wesbecker or could he have been talking about somebody else? 5 A. Whoever the first person I was talking to, he 6 was talking about Mr. Wesbecker. 7 Q. Did you know Mr. Hunter said in his deposition 8 he never heard of any such discussion with Mr. Wesbecker? 9 A. I may have got it confused with lapse of time. 10 I thought it was Mr. Hunter but I may be wrong. 11 Q. But as far as seeing Mr. Wesbecker act in a 12 violent manner, did you ever see him act in a violent manner? 13 A. No. 14 Q. As far as personally hearing any threats on the 15 part of Mr. Wesbecker, did you ever personally hear any 16 threats? 17 A. No, I did not. 18 Q. Do you know of anybody that had been in a 19 fistfight or had any kind of altercation with Mr. Wesbecker? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Do you personally know of any threats that Mr. 22 Wesbecker might have made? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Pointer. 25 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher? 159 1 2 3 EXAMINATION ___________ 4 5 BY_MR._STOPHER: __ ___ ________ 6 Q. Mr. Pointer, if I understand correctly, on 7 September 14, 1989, sir, you had started work about 12:30 8 A.M.; am I correct about that? 9 A. Yes, you are. 10 Q. And you were working that night as a paper 11 handler in the basement area of Area One; is that right, sir? 12 A. Right. 13 Q. And your shift was supposed to end, if I 14 understand correctly, at nine A.M.? 15 A. Right. 16 Q. And your supervisor, whoever that may have been, 17 told you that you needed to work another eight hours; am I 18 right? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. If I understand correctly, sir, you had been 21 told by your supervisor to go get some breakfast between the 22 shifts; am I correct about that? 23 A. Well, he didn't tell me, but what we normally do 24 when we work another shift is go on down and eat and come 25 back. 160 1 Q. All right. And if I understand, at about 8:30 2 in the morning, between 8:30 and 9:00, along in there, you 3 were leaving to go to your car to eat breakfast; am I 4 recalling this -- recalling it correctly? 5 A. No. I was going to take it off the meter and 6 repark it. 7 Q. You were going to repark your car, get something 8 to eat and come back into the paper handling area; correct, 9 sir? 10 A. Right. 11 Q. Now, if I understand correctly, sir, you were 12 leaving the basement area and going through what is called the 13 tunnel; am I right about that? 14 A. Right. 15 Q. And that tunnel looks something like this, sir, 16 if I understand correctly, and let me show you a document 17 that's already been filed as Defendant's Exhibit 92. And I 18 apologize to you, sir, the photograph is a little dark. 19 But -- can you see it at all, sir, from there? 20 A. Yes. I can see it. 21 Q. Okay. Let me tell you that this area is the 22 tunnel and that there are rolls of paper stacked over here on 23 the left. Does that look familiar to you, sir? 24 A. Yes, it does. 25 Q. As I understand, sir, you were moving from 161 1 approximately this location and you were going to walk along 2 the length of this tunnel, perhaps go up the steps? 3 A. Right. 4 Q. Near where the Marine Electric electricians were 5 working, that set of stairs? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Go up to the loading dock and out; am I right? 8 A. Right. Right. 9 Q. Mr. Pointer, this tunnel with those rolls of 10 paper in there, about how wide is that, sir? 11 A. It's about ten feet. 12 Q. There's ten feet in width from here to here? 13 A. Right. From the one wall to the other wall. 14 Q. From one wall to the other wall? 15 A. Right. 16 Q. How much width is there from the wall to the 17 roll of paper? 18 A. Well, it all depends on what size paper's in 19 there. If it's 50 inch, well, you've got good distance 20 between there. Anything larger than that, it's very close. 21 Q. Can you tell by looking at these rolls, sir, 22 what size they are? 23 A. Either 49 and a half, maybe 50 or 51. 24 Q. All right. It looks to me, sir, in looking at 25 this photograph, that about two-thirds of the width of the 162 1 tunnel is taken up with the paper rolls. Does that look about 2 right to you, sir? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. That would leave about three to four feet of 5 walking space? 6 A. But on that particular morning there wasn't no 7 rolls in the tunnel then. 8 Q. You don't recall any rolls in the tunnel? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Let me represent to you, sir, that this 11 photograph was taken by the Louisville Police Department. 12 A. Well, I probably got confused about that then. 13 Q. Does this photograph bring that back to you with 14 that representation that it was made by the Louisville Police 15 Department? 16 A. I don't remember the rolls being up there. They 17 could have been, but I can't recall right now. 18 Q. All right. Now, sir, as I understand it, you 19 were going to walk from this location through the tunnel out 20 the other way and up the steps? 21 A. Right. 22 Q. And if I understand correctly, sir, while you 23 were in this tunnel Mr. Wesbecker was walking towards you in 24 the opposite direction; am I right about that? 25 A. Right. Right. Right. 163 1 Q. And in order for him to pass you in that area, 2 sir, you would come within arm's length -- easily arm's length 3 of each other; is that true, sir? 4 A. Right. 5 Q. Now, if I understand correctly, sir, as you were 6 walking toward him and as he was walking toward you, he raised 7 a weapon and fired one time at you; am I correct, sir? 8 A. Correct. 9 Q. And he hit you one time; am I correct? 10 A. Correct. 11 Q. If I understand correctly, sir, you backed up or 12 went backwards or went back in the direction that you had been 13 walking from; am I right about that, sir? 14 A. Right. 15 Q. In other words, you retreated and went basically 16 the same way he was going; is that accurate, sir? 17 A. After the shooting. After he had left. 18 Q. All right, sir. That was the point I was 19 unclear on then. 20 He shot you in the tunnel; am I correct? 21 A. Just before I got to the tunnel. 22 Q. All right. In other words, if this is the 23 entrance to the tunnel, this wall right here, you would have 24 been standing about right where this photograph is; am I 25 understanding you correctly, sir? 164 1 A. I hadn't really reached that area yet. I was 2 approaching the conveyor belt and I hadn't got there yet when 3 I was shot. 4 Q. And if I understand correctly, then you 5 retreated and went back toward the reel room? 6 A. I did? 7 Q. Yes, sir. 8 A. After he had shot me, I did. 9 Q. Now I think I understand what you're saying now. 10 He shot you and then he walked by you? 11 A. Right. 12 Q. And when he walked by you he looked at you and 13 you looked at him? 14 A. Right. 15 Q. Do I understand correctly? 16 A. Sure. 17 Q. And he walked by you and on into the reel room? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And then if I understand correctly, sir, then 20 you followed him into the reel room? 21 A. After a few seconds after it all happened. 22 Q. All right, sir. Let me hand you, sir -- let me 23 hand you a copy, sir, of what's been marked as Defendant's 24 Exhibit 163, and I'm referring to the sheet that is marked at 25 the bottom Basement. This is the tunnel, sir. This is the 165 1 reel room and the little set of steps up into the pressroom. 2 Are you oriented on that little map, sir? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Let me quickly put it up here on the screen, 5 sir. Now, sir, in looking at this diagram, and perhaps it's 6 easier for you to see it on the screen, this is the tunnel 7 area, this is the reel room area over here and if I understand 8 correctly, sir, you were about right there when Mr. Wesbecker 9 fired and hit you; am I correct? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. He was in the tunnel walking toward you? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And you were walking toward him? 14 A. Right. 15 Q. Then as I understand it, he walked by you? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And went in through this area and into the reel 18 room? 19 A. Right. 20 Q. And that's when you didn't see him for a few 21 minutes; am I right? 22 A. Right. Right. 23 Q. Then where did you come, sir? 24 A. I come back through the tunnel -- not all the 25 way in the reel room, just at the little doorway there. 166 1 Q. Right here? 2 A. Yes. I stood right there. 3 Q. So you stood right there? 4 A. Right. 5 Q. Did you hear a conversation there between Mr. 6 Wesbecker and John Tingle? 7 A. No, I did not. 8 Q. Now, sir, if I understand correctly, when you 9 got to that little doorway there, you could see the area in 10 the reel room and even see this set of steps right here; am I 11 correct, sir? 12 A. Yes. Yes. 13 Q. And when you saw Mr. Wesbecker in that area, do 14 I understand, sir, that you watched him approach that set of 15 steps, and I think your words were in your deposition "like a 16 hunter stalking his prey"? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Is that the way that he moved and held the 19 weapon, sir? 20 A. He sure did. 21 Q. Now, that set of steps, sir, is a narrow set of 22 steps; is it not? 23 A. Yes, it is. 24 Q. That is the means of getting from the reel room 25 up into the pressroom; correct, sir? 167 1 A. Correct. 2 Q. Mr. Pointer, let me next show you a photograph 3 that's marked as Defendant's Exhibit 101. Let me do a little 4 adjusting here. Now let me see if I can get both of us placed 5 here. If I understand you correctly, sir, you were standing 6 about right here, this set of steps is about there? 7 A. Right. 8 Q. See these steps right there just behind the 9 column? 10 A. Right. Right. 11 Q. And you were standing here and you were watching 12 Mr. Wesbecker; am I right? 13 A. I wasn't all the way out in the opening. 14 Q. But you were over here by the door? 15 A. Back in that little bay; right. 16 Q. And you saw him walk toward the steps? 17 A. Yes, I did. 18 Q. And he was stalking? 19 A. Right. 20 Q. And then if I understand correctly, sir, Mr. 21 Barger was coming down the steps? 22 A. Yes, he was. 23 Q. Let me show you another photograph, sir, that I 24 have marked as Defendant's Exhibit 109. Does that show the 25 reel room and the bottom part of those steps there, sir? 168 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Let me show you another photograph that's been 3 marked Defendant's Exhibit 111. Does that show the set of 4 steps up to the pressroom, sir? 5 A. Yes. Uh-huh. 6 Q. Is it easy for two people to pass each other on 7 that set of steps? 8 A. No, it's not. 9 Q. They're quite narrow? 10 A. Quite narrow; right. 11 Q. Let me show you another photograph, sir, that's 12 been marked as Defendant's Exhibit 114. Does that show the 13 set of steps from the top looking down toward the reel room? 14 A. Right. 15 Q. And a photograph, sir, that's been marked as 16 Defendant's Exhibit 115, and I will represent to you, sir, 17 that this photograph was taken by the Louisville Police on the 18 day of the shootings. That's taken from the pressroom looking 19 at the top of the steps that go down to the reel room; 20 correct, sir? 21 A. Right. 22 Q. Now, Mr. Pointer, let me go back to some topics 23 other than the day of the shootings, sir. If I understand 24 correctly, sir, there was a difference in the way the Binghams 25 managed Standard Gravure and the way in which Mike Shea 169 1 managed Standard Gravure; is that correct, sir? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And who in your judgment, sir, based on all the 4 years that you worked there, was more fair to the employees? 5 A. The Binghams. 6 Q. The Binghams? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Mr. Shea was less fair to you in your judgment 9 than the Binghams had been? 10 A. Well, the few years I worked there, a few little 11 things happened that I wasn't pleased with, you know. 12 Q. When Mr. Shea came in, sir, if I understand 13 correctly, you felt that the Shea management was unfair to you 14 and to other employees in certain circumstances; is that true, 15 sir? 16 A. True. 17 Q. And you filed some complaints or had some 18 complaints of unfairness against the Shea management; is that 19 true, sir? 20 A. I don't think that's true. I don't think it is. 21 If I did, I don't remember it right now. 22 Q. Didn't you file several grievances against the 23 Shea ownership? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Mr. Pointer, do you recall giving your 170 1 deposition under oath -- 2 A. Right. 3 Q. -- on October 21, 1991? 4 A. Right. 5 Q. The same oath that you took today? 6 A. Right. 7 Q. You were represented on that date by an 8 attorney? 9 A. Yes, I was. 10 Q. As a matter of fact, there were three different 11 attorneys there for the plaintiffs' group; correct, sir? 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. Let me ask you if you gave these answers under 14 oath on Page 29 of that deposition, sir. 15 "Question 200: Were there times that you felt 16 that the Shea management was unfair to you and the other 17 employees? 18 "Answer: Yes. 19 "Did you yourself have any complaints of 20 unfairness under the Shea ownership? 21 "Answer: Yes. 22 "Question: Did you file some grievances? 23 "Answer: Yes, we did. 24 "Question: You were a part of those grievances? 25 "Answer: Yes. 171 1 "Question: Do you recall, sir, about how many 2 you filed? 3 "Answer: Oh, we filed several. 4 "Question: It would be quite a number then? 5 "Answer: (Nods head affirmative). 6 "Question: Is that a yes? 7 "Answer: Yes." 8 Is that accurate testimony, sir? 9 A. Yes. It's been a long period of time since 10 then. Sometimes you can get confused, though. 11 Q. I understand, sir. Now, if I understand, one of 12 the problems under the Shea management was increased pressure 13 to be more productive and to cut back on costs; isn't that 14 true? 15 A. Right. 16 Q. More pressure was put on the men in the 17 pressroom to produce more product and to cut back on the cost; 18 is that true? 19 A. That's true. 20 Q. And it was the supervisors that made that 21 pressure known to the employees and the men that worked in the 22 pressroom; isn't that accurate, sir? 23 A. Right. 24 Q. For example, with regard to yourself, sir, you 25 had to work frequently overtime whether you wanted to or not, 172 1 such as the day of this incident on September 14, 1989? 2 A. That's true. 3 Q. The Shea Company ran Standard Gravure three 4 shifts a day, six days a week and at times seven days a week; 5 isn't that true, sir? 6 A. True. 7 Q. Now, sir, when Mr. Shea first bought the 8 company, you said that he was a person who would sometimes 9 come in and look around, but that after a while he got 10 withdrawn and had little or no communication with the people 11 in the pressroom. Is that still accurate, sir? 12 A. Well, on my shift after spending time with him I 13 didn't see him coming in that much. Once in a while on my 14 shift; I can't speak for the other shift. 15 Q. I understand, sir. But on your shift, after he 16 had owned the company for a couple or three years, you didn't 17 see him as much as you had before, did you, sir? 18 A. That's right. 19 Q. Now, sir, I thought I understood you to say 20 today, sir, that you had no idea that guns were brought into 21 Standard Gravure? 22 A. I had no idea. 23 Q. Was there a requirement that there be no guns at 24 Standard Gravure? 25 A. Right. 173 1 Q. Let me refer you again, sir, to your deposition 2 and again under oath, Page 40. Let me ask you if you gave 3 these answers under oath, sir. Let me go back to Page 39, 4 Question 286: "Weapons, however, were not very well enforced; 5 is that true? 6 "Answer: Right. 7 "Question: That is, from time to time people 8 would have weapons on the premises and the rule prohibiting it 9 would not be enforced? 10 "Answer: Well, the supervisor wouldn't know it 11 at the time. 12 "Question: But other employees would know about 13 it? 14 "Answer: Right. 15 "Question: And were there times that supervisors 16 would be told or would see weapons on the premises and not do 17 anything about it? 18 "Answer: Not that I know of. 19 "Question: It would just be that other 20 employees would be aware of weapons on the premises and 21 wouldn't do anything to report it? 22 "Answer: Right. 23 "Would weapons from time to time be kept in the 24 lockers; is that where they would be stored on the premises? 25 "Answer: Yes. 174 1 "Question: And did any -- 2 A. Excuse me. I didn't see the weapons. I'm just 3 going by what other employees have said, different ones that 4 had guns in the locker. For me knowing truthfully... 5 Q. Other employees told you there were weapons on 6 the premises and that they would be kept in their lockers? 7 A. Right. 8 Q. Let me ask you this, sir. Page 43, Question 9 309: "Did you ever become aware of weapons being stored in 10 those lockers? 11 "Answer: Yes. 12 "Question: -- 13 A. Excuse me. Excuse me. I think that's a 14 misquote on somebody's part. I never seen no weapons in 15 nobody's locker. 16 Q. You think the Court Reporter wrote it down -- 17 A. She had to have, because looking over it again I 18 seen several errors that was made because I did not see no 19 weapons in somebody's locker. 20 Q. Let me read the rest of this testimony that you 21 gave, sir. Let me go back, Question 309: "Did you ever 22 become aware of weapons being stored in those lockers? 23 "Answer: Yes. 24 "Question 310: And was that something that was 25 done on pretty much a routine basis? 175 1 "Answer: Some individuals. 2 "Question: Some of the individuals did? 3 "Answer: Right. 4 "Question: Was that ever reported to any of the 5 supervisors? 6 "Answer: Not that I know of. 7 Are all those answers wrong, sir? 8 A. I didn't see no weapons. I'm just going by what 9 I was told. Seeing it with my own eyes I did not see any. I 10 was just told that. 11 Q. And was it other pressmen that told you about 12 those weapons? 13 A. I'm not sure if it was paper handlers or 14 pressmans, I'm not sure right now. 15 Q. Now, sir, if I understand correctly, on one 16 occasion Luke Stephenson -- or, Luke Stephens, I'm not sure 17 which is correct, sir. 18 A. Stephens. 19 Q. Stephens, told you a story about an incident 20 where he jumped out at Wesbecker from behind a wall on the 21 Standard Gravure premises and scared Wesbecker and that he got 22 disoriented and very nervous. Do you recall that? 23 A. Steve told me. I didn't see it. He said he got 24 awful nervous. 25 Q. If I understand correctly, sir, on other 176 1 occasions -- on one other occasion, at least, you did notice 2 Joe Wesbecker standing near an ink well and talking to himself 3 as if he was talking to somebody else; do you recall that, 4 sir? 5 A. Right. 6 Q. He was gesturing with his hands and acting as if 7 he was talking to another person; am I correct about that? 8 A. Correct. 9 Q. There were other instances in which Mr. 10 Wesbecker behaved differently and on occasions he would have a 11 faraway look in his eye while other people were talking at him 12 or around him; is that true, sir? 13 A. True. 14 Q. The faraway look in his eye was something that 15 you saw on more than one occasion before these shootings 16 occurred; correct, sir? 17 A. Right. 18 Q. And while he was still working at Standard 19 Gravure; am I correct, sir? 20 A. Correct. 21 Q. In more recent years, sir, you noticed that Mr. 22 Wesbecker was awfully nervous; that he was withdrawn; that his 23 nervousness was displayed in the way that he moved and he 24 talked to himself? 25 A. On that one occasion I only seen him talking to 177 1 himself. 2 Q. Only one occasion you saw him talking to 3 himself. But on other occasions you did notice that he was 4 withdrawn and reclusive and had the faraway look in his eye? 5 A. Well, I never seen him talking really to anyone. 6 He would just shut up in a crowd. There would be a group of 7 guys together. He would come and stop and just wouldn't say 8 anything. 9 Q. Now, if I understand correctly, sir, sometime in 10 1988, someone told you and you thought it was John Hunter; am 11 I correct? 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. But you may be confused, it may have been 14 someone other than John Hunter that told you this; am I 15 correct? 16 A. Right. Right. 17 Q. You thought it was John Hunter; John Hunter 18 apparently says it wasn't him, so it must have been someone 19 else; correct? 20 A. Someone told me. It could have been someone 21 else. I'm not sure if it was Hunter or who. 22 Q. And what you were told was that Wesbecker came 23 into the pressroom office after he had been on long-term 24 disability and announced that he was going to come back and 25 get all of them; am I correct about that, sir? 178 1 A. Correct. 2 Q. Mr. Pointer, did they have a video camera in 3 operation at the Sixth Street entrance to control who was 4 coming in and going out over there? 5 A. It was at one time. 6 Q. And was it there on September 14, 1989? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Do you know, Mr. Pointer, who took it out or why 9 it was taken out? 10 A. I have no idea. 11 Q. Mr. Pointer, let me switch gears and talk with 12 you about another topic again, and that is with regard to the 13 job of operating the folder. I take it that you yourself as a 14 paper handler didn't have to do that job; am I right? 15 A. Right. 16 Q. But you did observe other pressmen who -- or 17 pressmen who had to do that job from time to time; is that 18 accurate, sir? 19 A. Yes, it is. 20 Q. And is it true that there was more mental strain 21 on the person operating the folder than on other members of 22 the crew? 23 MR. SMITH: Your Honor, we're going to object to 24 that. There's no testimony that this Witness is qualified to 25 make that type of judgment. He was a paper handler. 179 1 JUDGE POTTER: Sustained at this point. 2 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, he's already testified 3 about it in his deposition. 4 MR. SMITH: That doesn't mean he's qualified to 5 give an opinion. 6 MR. STOPHER: It's based on what he observed, 7 Your Honor. 8 JUDGE POTTER: I'm going to sustain the 9 objection. 10 Q. Mr. Pointer, did you hear discussions that Mr. 11 Wesbecker was too nervous to work on the folder? 12 A. I'm not sure if I had heard that or not. I'm 13 not sure. I may have. I'm not sure right now. 14 Q. Mr. Pointer, on the day of the shootings, at any 15 time when you watched Mr. Wesbecker, was he always moving at a 16 walk, sir? 17 A. During the shooting? 18 Q. Yes, sir. 19 A. Yes. He continually walked towards me after he 20 shot. 21 Q. He never ran or broke into a trot? 22 A. No, he did not. 23 Q. It was always a walk? 24 A. Sure. 25 Q. Those are all the questions I have, Mr. Pointer. 180 1 Thank you, sir. 2 Your Honor, we do move the admission of the 3 exhibits that I believe, Your Honor, are 114, 111, 115. I may 4 have missed one, also. 5 JUDGE POTTER: How about 109? 6 MR. STOPHER: Pardon me? 7 JUDGE POTTER: 109 or 101? 8 MR. STOPHER: Right. 9 JUDGE POTTER: Be admitted. 10 MR. STOPHER: Thank you, sir. 11 JUDGE POTTER: Anything else, Mr. Smith? 12 MR. SMITH: Just a couple, Your Honor. 13 14 FURTHER_EXAMINATION _______ ___________ 15 16 BY_MR._SMITH: __ ___ ______ 17 Q. Mr. Pointer, on how many occasions do you 18 suppose you observed Joseph Wesbecker before September 14th, 19 1989? 20 A. Well, we never worked on the same shift unless 21 we was called back in on each one of our shifts, but it was 22 very rare. It wasn't -- I'm going to say maybe once, maybe 23 twice a week. 24 Q. Did you ever personally observe Mr. Wesbecker 25 carrying a gun? 181 1 A. No. 2 Q. When you heard, regardless of who you heard it 3 from, concerning this threat that Mr. Wesbecker might have 4 made at one point, did you take that threat seriously 5 yourself? 6 A. Not really. 7 Q. What do you mean by "not really"? 8 A. Because he never gave me no kind of impression 9 that he was that type of person, so I -- during that time I 10 heard that I kind of shrugged it off. 11 Q. Did you ever know Joseph Wesbecker to be a man 12 of violence? 13 A. No. 14 Q. A man of temper? 15 A. No. 16 Q. A man of ill will? 17 A. No. 18 Q. That's all I have, Your Honor. 19 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Thank you very much, Mr. 20 Pointer, you may step down. 21 Ladies and gentlemen, we got kind of a late 22 start so I'm going to go ahead and take the afternoon recess 23 at this time. As I've mentioned to you all, do not talk to 24 anybody about this case, including each other, and do not form 25 or express any opinions about it. Stand in recess for about 182 1 15 minutes. 2 (RECESS) 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 182 1 (RECESS) 2 SHERIFF DAVIS: Jury is now entering. All 3 jurors present. 4 JUDGE POTTER: Please be seated. Mr. Smith, you 5 want to call your next witness? 6 MR. SMITH: At this time, Your Honor, the 7 plaintiffs will call Mr. William "Bill" "Herman" Hoffmann. 8 JUDGE POTTER: Sir, would you stand up here and 9 raise your right hand, please. 10 11 WILLIAM HOFFMANN, after first being duly sworn, 12 was examined and testified as follows: 13 14 JUDGE POTTER: Would you please have a seat, 15 keep your voice up good and loud and state your full name for 16 the jury, please. 17 MR. HOFFMANN: William Thomas Hoffmann. 18 19 EXAMINATION ___________ 20 21 BY_MR._SMITH: __ ___ ______ 22 Q. How old of a man are you, Mr. Hoffmann? 23 A. Forty-six. 24 Q. And where do you currently live? 25 A. Salt Lake City, Utah. 183 1 Q. When did you move to Salt Lake City? 2 A. About five years ago. 3 Q. How long after this shooting was it? 4 A. A year, somewhere within a year afterwards. 5 When I could walk. 6 Q. How long were you in the hospital? 7 A. Approximately three weeks. 8 Q. What kind of injuries did you sustain in this 9 shooting? 10 A. I was shot in the knee and I was shot in the 11 chest. 12 Q. What part of your chest was injured? 13 A. The right side under my -- under the axilla. 14 Q. Did you know -- I've had a mind snap. Did you 15 know Mr. Pointer -- 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. -- before this? Did you know all the plaintiffs 18 here? 19 A. Not all the plaintiffs. 20 Q. When did you first start working at Standard 21 Gravure? 22 A. September 1966. 23 Q. So you had been working at Standard Gravure for 24 23 years -- 25 A. Yes, sir. 184 1 Q. -- when this accident happened? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Did you know Joseph Wesbecker? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. Had you seen Joseph Wesbecker socially? 6 A. No. Usually only across the street at lunch or 7 right after work. 8 Q. But as far as going out at night with him for 9 any extended period of time, did you ever -- 10 A. One time. One time in my life, and he was with 11 Steve and Charlie Miller. 12 Q. Tell the jury what type of guy Joseph Wesbecker 13 was, as far as you could tell. 14 A. Pretty easy going, laid-back kind of guy. 15 Always walked around with a cup of coffee in his hand and 16 wanted to tell a joke. 17 Q. Did you ever observe Mr. Wesbecker getting in a 18 fight? 19 A. Never. 20 Q. Did you and Mr. Wesbecker ever have any cross 21 words? 22 A. No, sir. 23 Q. Was this a tough place to work, Standard 24 Gravure, in your 23 years, Mr. Hoffmann? 25 A. No. They wanted a good day's work for the 185 1 money. Sometimes we did, and when the presses were running 2 everything went smoothly. 3 Q. Did you like your job at Standard Gravure? 4 A. Very much. 5 Q. You were a pressman? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. And did you go up through the ranks at Standard 8 Gravure? 9 A. Yes. I worked fly-boy, apprentice and 10 journeyman. 11 Q. Did you ever work on the same press with Joseph 12 Wesbecker? 13 A. On occasion. We normally worked different 14 shifts, and I tried for daywork and he tried for five to one. 15 So if I worked over, I'd see him; if he worked over, he'd see 16 me. 17 Q. What type of worker was he? 18 A. A pretty good worker. 19 Q. When you say "pretty good," that indicates that 20 he might have had some faults or something. 21 A. Some what? 22 Q. Some faults. 23 A. No. It wasn't faults that he had. He was a 24 pretty good worker. 25 Q. Did you ever notice Joseph Wesbecker being 186 1 nervous or agitated in any particular way? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Was his disposition calm or was it -- did he 4 have a pretty short fuse? 5 A. He usually smiled and wanted to tell a joke. 6 That's what I remember about Joe Wesbecker. 7 Q. Did he have any nicknames? 8 A. I hear they called him Rocky. 9 Q. Any other nicknames? 10 A. We used to call him Pillsbury Doughboy. 11 Q. Why? 12 A. He always wore a white T-shirt and his stomach 13 stuck out. We would just tease him about being the Pillsbury 14 Doughboy. He was just a laughy, giggly kind of guy. 15 Q. How did he take the teasing about being a 16 Pillsbury Doughboy? 17 A. Same as he took everything else, with a smile on 18 his face. 19 Q. Can you give me any idea of how many times you 20 worked with Joseph Wesbecker? 21 A. He worked a lot of overtime and on occasions I 22 worked a lot of overtime. It would fluctuate. I might work 23 two or three months overtime as much as I could get and then 24 no overtime for one or two months. But we can end up working 25 in the same area every other night maybe on overtime, but 187 1 because he had a lunch hour, I had a lunch hour and then we 2 had lunch hours on the shift and we got off early on doubles, 3 I didn't see -- I wouldn't see him very much. 4 Q. Did you ever see him working the folder? 5 A. Yes. Yes, sir. 6 Q. And how many occasions would you say he would be 7 working the folder? 8 A. He worked the north-line folder and south-line 9 folder for quite a while, I assume. I usually worked in Area 10 One and he worked in Area Two, as a rule. 11 Q. On those occasions you did see him working the 12 folder, did he appear to do it adequately? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. Did you ever hear any complaints about Mr. 15 Wesbecker's quality of work at any time? 16 A. Never. 17 Q. Did Mr. Wesbecker ever complain to you about 18 working the folder? 19 A. As far as I know, he wanted to work the folder 20 at the time that I knew him. 21 Q. Would this have been when? 22 A. Well, I was off work for two and a half years 23 with Reiter's syndrome, an arthritic problem, and when I came 24 back to work he was off work, so I hadn't seen him. 25 Q. When did you come back to work? 188 1 A. Pardon me? 2 Q. When did you come back to work? 3 A. I don't have the dates. I don't know. I've 4 thought about that and I can't even think of the date when I 5 went back to work. It was about seven months prior to the 6 shooting, so probably at around the first of 1989. 7 Q. Did you know when you went back in early 1989 8 after being off work that Mr. Wesbecker was off work? 9 A. I knew he was off work. 10 Q. Did you know the reason for him being off work? 11 A. I heard he had a mental disability. 12 Q. Had you ever seen any evidence of a mental 13 disability in Mr. Wesbecker up until that time? 14 A. Not to my knowledge. 15 Q. Had you ever heard that he had a mental 16 disability up till that time? 17 A. Not till I returned to work and found out that 18 he was off. 19 Q. Up to the time that you returned to work, had 20 you ever seen any fights out there in the 23 years that you 21 were at Standard Gravure between individuals there? 22 A. No. Never saw anything like that inside. 23 Q. Did you ever have any fear about working at 24 Standard Gravure? 25 A. About working there? 189 1 Q. Yes. 2 A. No, sir. 3 Q. Did you have any fear about being around the 4 premises? 5 A. There were muggings and a couple of women were 6 raped and there were some muggings around the neighborhood, 7 people going to the parking lots from the one-to-nine shift 8 and the five-to-one shift, so I considered it downtown urban 9 area. 10 Q. But as far as being inside the premises, did you 11 ever have any concern about your safety up till September 12 14th, 1989? 13 A. Never. I considered it a safe place. 14 Q. Did you work the folder? 15 A. On occasions. 16 Q. And did you mind working the folder? 17 A. No. In fact, I asked to work the folder. 18 Q. Why? 19 A. Well, you could -- it was just moving up the 20 ladder, and I had asked individuals on many occasions to work 21 the folders. And I would help people out, let them take a 22 break, and I'd work the folder for them just so I could learn 23 the job. 24 Q. Was that a more difficult job either mentally or 25 physically than other areas of press work? 190 1 A. Well, when you worked the inks you just had to 2 be sure the inks, you had the proper viscosity. When you ran 3 a reel, you just had to have paper in the reel at the time. 4 And -- but when you worked the folder, you had to stay by it 5 to constantly check books to see if the color up and down or 6 side register was off, if the inks were the wrong type, if the 7 margins were out of line. You had a lot of small adjustments. 8 Q. Did you know that there were some pressmen who 9 didn't like working the folder? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And did you ever see any pressmen that were 12 forced to work the folder over their objections in all your 13 years there? 14 A. Never. There was always people waiting in line 15 to work the folder, as far as I knew. 16 Q. Why would it be not beneficial to the 17 supervisors there to put somebody on the folder that didn't 18 want to be on the folder, Bill? 19 A. I would think if they didn't want to be on the 20 folder bad enough, they would do a bad job. 21 Q. And what effect would that be? 22 A. Disastrous, that would cost us money, customers. 23 Q. Were there ever occasions when particular 24 individuals had worked the folder and there had been problems 25 as a result of their poor job on the folder? 191 1 A. Not to my knowledge. I know certain things had 2 happened, say, where the folder man would have to go back to 3 the rear end of the press to take care of something, clean off 4 the cylinder, and when he got back he'd look at the book and 5 maybe something was really out of kilter, something had jumped 6 off, but they caught it. They had color checkers upstairs 7 checking the jobs. 8 Q. What kind of changes were instituted once Mr. 9 Shea took over Standard Gravure from the Binghams? 10 A. The manning was drastically reduced prior to 11 that. And they wanted a more businesslike attitude from 12 everybody. 13 Q. Had the attitude there as far as getting the 14 work done and production been somewhat slack before the 15 Binghams had sold the plant? 16 A. Not to my knowledge. They still got the books 17 out at whatever rate they ran the presses. They always got 18 books out. 19 Q. Once the Shea -- once Mr. Shea took over was 20 there a requirement that there be more production? 21 A. Well, the press speeds went up and we had fewer 22 men working on the press, but I still considered it a good 23 job. 24 Q. Why? 25 A. I didn't want to go to work in a factory, and 192 1 that's what I thought, if I didn't stay in the printing 2 industry, I'd just have to volunteer for any job I could get. 3 Q. Did you ever hear Joseph Wesbecker complain 4 about his job? 5 A. Never. 6 Q. What shift were you working on September 14th, 7 1989? 8 A. The one-to-nine shift, one A.M. to nine A.M. 9 Q. So you were just getting off work when this 10 shooting occurred? 11 A. Yes. I had about ten minutes to go -- it was 12 about ten minutes till nine, I think, when it happened. 13 Q. Had you taken your shower? 14 A. No, sir. 15 Q. Tell the jury what you had done, say, the 15 16 minutes before you got into the break room. 17 A. I just double-checked my inks to be sure they 18 were on for my relief on the next shift and just headed toward 19 the break room. I was eating some pot roast that I had 20 brought in. I hadn't eaten lunch that night, so I was eating 21 it at that time. 22 Q. Had that been an unusually busy night or do you 23 recall? 24 A. No. Just my time was utilized that night and I 25 just never really bothered with lunch. 193 1 Q. Do you remember who your supervisor was that 2 evening? 3 A. No, I don't. 4 Q. Who was in the break room when you came into the 5 break room? 6 A. Mike Campbell, Bill Ganote, Chuck Gorman, Gordon 7 Scherer, myself, Donnie Wilhelm had been in there and the 8 seat -- Donnie Wilhelm got up out of his seat by the soft 9 drink machine and Kenny Fentress came in and took that seat. 10 So Wilhelm left and Kenneth Fentress came in. 11 Q. Do you recall what everybody was doing? 12 A. Basically sitting around the table. Some people 13 were getting ready to get off. Some people were putting their 14 food in the refrigerator, reading the paper, just getting 15 ready to either get off or go in to work. 16 Q. What caught your attention that morning that 17 there was something out of the ordinary? 18 A. I heard several gunshots outside the door. 19 Q. Did you make any comment about that? 20 A. I thought it was a gunshot. And somebody -- 21 that's all the comment I made. I thought it was a gunshot. 22 Q. What did you do when you heard that noise? 23 A. Sat in my chair and just looked, the way 24 everybody else did, to sort of get a grip on what was 25 happening. 194 1 Q. Did that kind of put a pause on the conversation 2 going on in there? 3 A. Yes, it did. Kenny Fentress and I were talking 4 across the room to one another and when it happened, everybody 5 heard it but didn't know what it was. It was not a -- we have 6 a lot of noise in the pressroom and this was not a familiar 7 noise. 8 Q. You characterized it as a gunshot. Were you in 9 Vietnam? 10 A. I was in the military. I was in the army in 11 1968, '69 and '70. 12 Q. Did you recognize it definitely as a gunshot? 13 A. Not definitely, but I didn't think it was a fire 14 cracker or a joke. 15 Q. Were there a lot of noises there in the 16 pressroom? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Do you know or did you get the perception, Bill, 19 whether or not the other fellows there sitting in the break 20 room recognized these two shots as actual gunshots? 21 A. I don't think so. We all looked around and 22 looked at each other as if what is going on. 23 Q. What did you see next, Bill? 24 A. The door opened and there was gunfire, and he 25 shot Kenny Fentress directly, immediately upon opening the 195 1 door. 2 Q. Did you see Joseph Wesbecker open the door? 3 A. I just saw the door open. I didn't see an 4 individual at the door at the time; I just noticed the door 5 opening. 6 Q. Where were you sitting in relation to the door? 7 A. In the back of the room facing the door. 8 Q. Chuck Gorman has indicated that the break room 9 that you-all were in was a little bit -- about the size of 10 this area that's railed off for the jury. Does that comport 11 with your recollection of the size of that room? 12 A. Close. It could have been -- it could have been 13 12 feet wide, 16, 18 feet long. 14 Q. And there were, what, eight of you in there? 15 A. Seven. There was seven of us, I think. 16 Q. Was Paul Gnadinger in there at the time? 17 A. Paul Gnadinger, Fentress, myself, Chuck Gorman, 18 Gordon Scherer, Mike Campbell and Bill Ganote. Donnie Wilhelm 19 had been in there, got up and left, and Kenny Fentress had 20 came in and sat down. 21 Q. Inside the break room in addition to the two 22 tables, what's located in the break room? 23 A. There's a soft drink machine, a refrigerator, a 24 microwave, two large tables, and that's about all that I 25 remember of it. 196 1 Q. As you were sitting in your chair, where in 2 relation to where you're sitting would the door to the break 3 room be? 4 A. There were two doors, the two coming into the 5 break room from the pressroom was directly in front of me. 6 Q. That was the door that Joseph Wesbecker came in, 7 was it not? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. And where was the back door or the door to the 10 locker room? 11 A. Directly to my left. It opened into the locker 12 room. 13 Q. That door into the pressroom, does it have glass 14 on the front so you can see? 15 A. It had Plexiglas in the top half and it was 16 metal in the bottom half. 17 Q. Were you looking toward the door when it opened? 18 A. I was talking to Kenny Fentress when the door 19 opened. 20 Q. In relation to if I'm standing at the front 21 door, would the door have been about this far away from you or 22 closer or further? 23 A. Maybe a little further. There were two large 24 tables between the door -- two large round tables between the 25 door and the window. 197 1 Q. Okay. Did you see Joseph Wesbecker through the 2 glass? 3 A. Now, I did not notice him through the glass. I 4 noticed -- I was talking to Kenny Fentress and he was getting 5 shot as I talked to him. And then I glanced and I saw the 6 barrel of the gun. 7 Q. So you saw Mr. Fentress being physically shot? 8 A. Yes, I did. I was talking to him when it 9 happened. 10 Q. Before you saw the gun? 11 A. Then I looked to the right and saw the gun. 12 Q. What did Mr. Fentress do in response to the 13 shots? 14 A. He had a big smile on his face and he put both 15 hands over his face and went down on his knees out of the 16 chair with his head to the floor. 17 Q. Then you looked up and saw -- how many times was 18 Mr. Fentress shot? 19 A. Several. 20 Q. How far was the barrel of the gun from Mr. 21 Fentress when the gun was discharged? 22 A. When he opened the -- Kenny Fentress was sitting 23 on the left-hand wall and the door was right here. He wasn't 24 seven, eight feet away from him when he walked in the door. 25 Q. Would it have been a situation as close as me 198 1 and Ms. Zettler here? 2 A. Similar. Plus he had to walk around the door to 3 get in the door, then he moved over in front of the door and 4 started shooting other people. 5 Q. Who did he shoot next? 6 A. Mike Campbell and Bill Ganote. 7 Q. Where was Mike Campbell seated? 8 A. Directly in front of the door in a chair with 9 his back to the door. 10 Q. How many times did he shoot Mike Campbell? 11 A. Several. 12 Q. Then he shot who next? 13 A. Bill Ganote. He was shooting -- he was right on 14 top of the people at the first table. He was shooting 15 directly at them right on top of them. 16 Q. Did he physically come in the door? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Did you look up and see him? 19 A. Yes, I did. 20 Q. Did you see him through his face? 21 A. I recognized his face. 22 Q. Can you describe his face at that time? 23 A. It was unusually distorted, almost gnarled. It 24 was like out of a horror story. He was not the Joseph 25 Wesbecker that I had seen before. 199 1 Q. Did you recognize him as being Joseph Wesbecker 2 at that time? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. And what was the difference? 5 A. Well, I noticed -- the difference in him was the 6 distorted face that I noticed so much. That was what was 7 different. 8 Q. That's come up several times, Bill, this 9 distorted face. Can you give the jury and us any better 10 description of how his face was distorted? 11 A. He didn't say anything to anybody so he didn't 12 open his mouth, and it was almost as if he was gritting his 13 teeth and his eyes were pinched, just somebody trying to 14 concentrate on something that wasn't going very well. 15 Q. What about his face? Did it look like he had 16 lumps in his face or something? 17 A. It just looked sort of twisted and it was 18 flushed. His face was flushed. 19 Q. Okay. So he got Mr. Fentress? 20 A. He was directly -- when the door swung open this 21 direction, Kenny Fentress was right here next to the soft 22 drink machine. He was the first one he could see. 23 Q. Then he shot Mike Campbell? 24 A. Yes. When he came around the door. 25 Q. Then who? 200 1 A. Bill Ganote. 2 Q. Where was Bill Ganote sitting? 3 A. Sitting to the left of Mike Campbell, who had 4 his back to the door. 5 Q. Anybody say anything up to this point? 6 A. There was one remark about several -- somebody 7 said they thought it was Daunhauer, David Daunhauer, coming in 8 to get us. 9 Q. I mean, after Mr. Wesbecker came in? 10 A. After he came in it was complete pandemonium. 11 There might have been grunts, but there was no conversation 12 until he walked out. 13 Q. Who was shot after Bill Ganote? 14 A. He started shooting at our table, at the second 15 table, and I couldn't tell truthfully -- didn't take the time 16 to tell, but I didn't know who he was shooting at. He was 17 shooting at everybody. 18 Q. Do you know who was shot after Bill Ganote? 19 A. Quite possibly me. And if it hadn't been for 20 Chuck -- I stared at him and I just was sort of in a -- just 21 looking at him, and Chuck Gorman did me the favor of pulling 22 me down to the floor. 23 Q. Did he fall on top of you or did Chuck actually 24 pull you as he went down? 25 A. Chuck jerked my arm and got me out of the line 201 1 of fire, even though I got hit, but I wasn't a torso of the 2 target. 3 Q. Then what happened after you were knocked down? 4 A. He kept firing, and he left the room. 5 Q. Was there a water main hit at this point? 6 A. Yes. I was lying on the floor, and the cold 7 water woke me up. I just noticed something oily on it and I 8 couldn't imagine what the oil was doing in the water, and it 9 was blood running in our faces and ears and mouth, nose. And 10 then I sat up. 11 Q. What happened to Chuck? Was he laying beside 12 you? I'm still in the first round of shooting. 13 A. Somewhere we were a pile and I don't know how we 14 started unforming that pile, but Chuck and Gordon Scherer and 15 Paul Gnadinger could move. 16 Q. They could move? 17 A. They could move. Chuck and Gordon had been 18 shot, and they went to get some help. 19 Q. Did you know you had been shot at the time that 20 Chuck left? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. How did you know that? 23 A. I tried to stand -- well, my leg was behind my 24 shoulder at one point, and then I tried to stand up and it was 25 just completely disjointed; it was not connected to my knee at 202 1 all. 2 Q. So you had already sustained a leg wound? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. Had you been shot in the chest at that time? 5 A. No, sir. Not then. 6 Q. What happened next? 7 A. Joseph Wesbecker came back in the room. Chuck 8 Gorman, Paul Gnadinger and Gordon Scherer got out through the 9 locker room, I think, and then Joe Wesbecker came back in the 10 room, put another clip in and commenced firing again. 11 Q. Was there anybody up at this point when he came 12 back in the room the second time? 13 A. Mike Campbell was still sitting in a chair. He 14 had been shot several times, but he did not fall out of the 15 chair. 16 Q. Was everybody else down? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. But he came back into the room and what did he 19 do with the second? 20 A. Put a clip in and he started firing at all of 21 us. He shot the dead bodies, the people who were still alive. 22 He shot me in the chest at that time. 23 Q. Were you looking at Mr. Wesbecker during this 24 time? 25 A. I sat up and I saw him open the door. 203 1 Q. To come back in or to leave? 2 A. Pardon me? 3 Q. You say you saw him open the door. Was that 4 when he was leaving or coming back in the second time? 5 A. Coming back in. I had -- like the cold water 6 had hit my face and the blood, and I had sat up from that and 7 I had tried to stand up, and I was back in the floor because 8 my leg was just not connected anymore. And immediately after 9 that, Joe Wesbecker came back in and started firing again. 10 Q. Did you look up or did you duck? 11 A. I ducked. I was scrambling. 12 Q. But you were still shot? 13 A. Yes, sir. He shot me in the chest that time and 14 knocked me across the room. 15 Q. Do you know who else was shot that second time? 16 A. I think everybody in the room got shot again. 17 He was just insane, rabid at that time. He was firing at 18 anybody and at anything. 19 Q. Did anybody make any move toward him -- 20 A. No. 21 Q. -- to try to stop him? 22 A. We had no opportunity to. The only two people 23 close enough to him to stop him could have possibly been Kenny 24 Fentress, who was the first person he shot, the first person 25 he saw, and then Mike Campbell, who was directly in front of 204 1 the door but had his back to it and had no opportunity to do 2 anything before he was shot. 3 Q. Then what happened after he came in and shot the 4 second time? 5 A. He went back out of the room, and I sat up and I 6 could see him fumbling about his waist. He had the AK-47 up 7 to his chest and he was fumbling around. And I was 8 particularly worried that he was looking for another clip to 9 put in. 10 Q. In the AK-47? 11 A. In the AK-47, but he pulled out the nine 12 millimeter, stuck it under his chin and shot his face off. 13 Q. Did you see that? 14 A. I saw it from the side. I saw the lurch of his 15 body, I saw the blood spray and I saw his body jerk, spasm and 16 then he went down on his face. 17 Q. Were you looking through the door, through the 18 glass of the door? 19 A. I was looking through the Plexiglas at the top 20 of the door. 21 Q. What was happening to those of you who remained 22 in the room? 23 A. It was just Mike and myself. Kenny Fentress was 24 already -- he was hurt. He was seriously injured and he made 25 a couple noises, but it was more of a groan, and Mike and I 205 1 were the only two that were able to talk. 2 Q. And what did you say? 3 A. I was going out to get some help. I was going 4 out to the pressroom office, which was right next door, crawl 5 out and crawl into the office, and I got to the telephone and 6 the phone lines were dead. 7 Q. Did you physically crawl out of the break room, 8 Bill? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. As you crawled out of the break room, did that 11 require you to crawl next to Joseph Wesbecker's body? 12 A. Yes, it did. 13 Q. Why don't you come down here for just a second. 14 Why don't you get over here. As I understand it, this is the 15 break room where you were? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. You need to stand over there, Bill, so the jury 18 can see this. And you crawled out this front door? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And is that where Mr. Wesbecker's body was 21 lying? 22 A. His body was over here closer to the pressroom 23 door, but out a little further. 24 Q. And you went into the foremen's office? 25 A. Yes, sir. 206 1 Q. And what did you do there? 2 A. Picked up a telephone, and the phone lines were 3 dead. So I came back out and I started to go into the room 4 and Mike Campbell was already gone. 5 Q. Had he -- 6 A. He had gone out through the locker room. 7 Q. Everybody went out that way and was able to get 8 out? 9 A. I went out the front door. 10 Q. Did anybody else follow you out the front door? 11 A. Only Mike Campbell and myself could move. There 12 was nobody else. And both of us were shot in the leg, so we 13 couldn't walk. 14 Q. How were you? Go ahead, you can sit back down. 15 How were you physically getting out into the 16 foreman's office? 17 A. I was -- I was pushing myself backwards, using 18 my hands as locomotion. 19 Q. Was there water on the floor in the break room? 20 A. The break room was flooded. The water was in my 21 face. It was starting to come up over my nose and into my 22 eyes and ears. 23 Q. What did you and Mike Campbell have to say to 24 each other? 25 A. I don't remember much of the conversation. I 207 1 told him I was going to go out and call. And when I came back 2 from that, I think he had thrown himself out of the chair and 3 crawled out through the locker room. And I already knew that 4 Wesbecker was dead, so I just stayed right there next to 5 Wesbecker. 6 Q. When was it that help came? 7 A. It was a matter of minutes but two EMT people, I 8 think, came to the door and they took a peek and then they 9 went back down the hall. I don't think they believed that 10 Wesbecker was dead at that time. And then Jimmy Graham came 11 in and went to Jim Wible's side and was -- tried to help him, 12 and then Chief Dotson and a reporter came in, and then the EMT 13 people came in about three or four minutes later. 14 Q. Chief Dotson with the Louisville Police? 15 A. Yes, sir. Chief of the Louisville Police 16 Department. He came in and he said here, he told the -- he 17 was motioning to where Wesbecker's body was. He said, "Here 18 he is. We've got him." And that's about all I remember of 19 his conversation. 20 Q. How did they get you out of there, Bill? 21 A. The EMT people came in and put me on a 22 stretcher. 23 Q. Were you able to breathe at that time? 24 A. It was -- my lungs were in the process of 25 shutting down at that time. My right lung shut down before I 208 1 got to the hospital and the left lung shut down when I got to 2 the hospital. 3 Q. How long were you in surgery? 4 A. I don't know. I don't know. I don't 5 remember -- I don't remember the first week of being in the 6 hospital at all. 7 Q. Do you remember police coming and taking a 8 statement from you -- 9 A. Never. 10 Q. -- on the second day or so? 11 A. No, sir. One policeman, Cheryl Jackman, visited 12 me in the hospital but did not ask me any questions, to my 13 knowledge, about the incident. She just stopped by and said 14 hi. 15 Q. And this was when? Later? 16 A. It was later because, as I said, I don't 17 remember the first week of being in the hospital at all. 18 Q. You say that there was some comment when you 19 first heard the shots about a fellow by the name of Daunhauer? 20 A. David Daunhauer. 21 Q. Who is David Daunhauer? 22 A. He was a pressman, one of the lower -- he was 23 low on the list. He had just been a pressman for a brief 24 period of time, I think, a year, two years maybe. 25 Q. And what was the statement about him after the 209 1 shots? 2 A. Well, it was during the shooting when we heard 3 it outside the door. "Daunhauer is coming in to get us." 4 Q. To get us? 5 A. Yeah. That's why we were laughing. That's why 6 Kenny had the smile on his face. We were sort of laughing 7 at -- shrugging the remark off about Daunhauer. 8 Q. Why were you shrugging the remark off about 9 Daunhauer? 10 A. I don't think anybody thought anybody was 11 capable of that type of carnage. 12 Q. Had Daunhauer threatened the company or 13 threatened somebody there, as far as you know? 14 A. Daunhauer had been fired several times and they 15 had to hire him back every time. I don't know the situation 16 surrounding his problems with the company, but apparently he 17 had plenty of problems with the company. And he went to 18 government agencies and they fought each other tooth and nail, 19 as far as I know. But I have no idea what the problem was. 20 Q. Were you surprised when you saw Joseph Wesbecker 21 behind that AK-47? 22 A. Yes. Yes, sir. 23 Q. Why? 24 A. I didn't expect anybody in there capable of that 25 type of attitude or damage. 210 1 Q. Why Wesbecker? Why were you surprised about it 2 being Wesbecker? 3 A. He was a very meek, cuddly kind of guy. We 4 teased him -- as I said, we called him the Pillsbury Doughboy 5 because the commercial has the little hee-hee-hee in there as 6 the Doughboy smiles, and that was about like Wesbecker. He 7 was jovial, always wanting to tell a joke. 8 Q. That look, that grimace on Mr. Wesbecker's 9 face -- 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. -- had you ever seen that kind of look or that 12 grimace on anybody else's face in your entire life? 13 A. Not a live person. I had seen it on horror 14 shows. Maybe Bela Lugosi or something of that nature, but I 15 had never seen any -- 16 Q. Had you ever seen anybody under the influence of 17 amphetamines or speed, Bill? 18 A. Not to that extent. 19 Q. Was it in any way likened to somebody under the 20 influence of amphetamines or speed that you've seen? 21 MR. STOPHER: Objection, Your Honor. 22 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 23 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher? 24 MR. STOPHER: Judge, we object to introducing 25 evidence about comparisons to people under the influence of 211 1 amphetamines and speed. Secondly, this gentleman has just 2 said that he has no way of comparing that. 3 JUDGE POTTER: Well, does that solve the 4 problem? 5 MR. STOPHER: I don't think he should go any 6 further. He's admitted he's not qualified. 7 JUDGE POTTER: He isn't qualified, Mr. Smith. 8 Objection sustained. 9 Q. How long was it from the time the shooting 10 started until the time the shooting stopped? 11 A. The first time? 12 Q. Yes, sir. 13 A. He fired a full clip. 14 Q. From the time Kenny Fentress was shot until the 15 time Joseph Wesbecker took his own life how much time elapsed? 16 A. Oh, that could have been several minutes because 17 Wesbecker left the room. He emptied his clip and I know he 18 reloaded, and I heard some more gunfire but Wesbecker had left 19 the room, and he came back in again a couple minutes later and 20 shot us again. 21 Q. Do you think he emptied the clip the second 22 time? 23 A. I heard that he still had ten rounds left in the 24 clip. 25 MR. STOPHER: Objection. 212 1 JUDGE POTTER: Sustained. Sustained. 2 A. But I have no idea of knowing. He fired as long 3 as he wanted to. 4 MR. STOPHER: Objection, Your Honor. 5 Q. Nobody stopped him? 6 A. Nobody stopped him. He's the one that quit and 7 turned around and walked back out of the room. 8 Q. When you saw Mr. Wesbecker before he pulled out 9 the nine millimeter, what was he doing? 10 A. Fumbling at his side. As I said, he had the 11 AK-47 to his chest and he was as if he was looking in his 12 pocket or his belt for something, and that's when I thought he 13 was going to put another clip in and come back in for the 14 third time. But, instead, he pulled the pistol out and shot 15 himself. 16 Q. That's all we have, Your Honor. 17 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher? 18 19 EXAMINATION ___________ 20 21 BY_MR._STOPHER: __ ___ ________ 22 Q. Mr. Hoffmann, let me show you a photograph here, 23 sir. And, first of all, let me put this on the screen, and 24 then I'll try to get situated so you can see it because I 25 don't think you can, sir. This is Defendant's Exhibit 119, 213 1 and can you see that, Mr. Hoffmann? 2 A. Yes, sir. I see that. 3 Q. All right. Do you recognize the image shown in 4 this photograph, sir? 5 A. I think it's the pressroom office and the break 6 room doors, one next to each other. 7 Q. You recognize this as part of the pressroom in 8 Area One? 9 A. It looks as if it's Press Number Two. 10 Q. Press Number Two is shown over here on the 11 right? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. Okay. And it's looking at two doors that are 14 almost side by side; correct, sir? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. And what is the door on the left? 17 A. The pressroom office door. 18 Q. Is that sometimes called the foreman's office or 19 the supervisor's office? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. And is there a glass panel and a little box on 22 that door? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. Where are job assignments posted? 25 A. On that door, on the front of that -- on the 214 1 pane of Plexiglas. 2 Q. In other words, if a man is going to be assigned 3 to be the folder operator, he would go to this door and look 4 and see what his assignment was? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. And what is the door just immediately to the 7 right, sir? 8 A. The break room door. 9 Q. That's the door that goes into the break room, 10 and then there's another door on the right-hand side if you 11 went through that door that would go to the locker room; 12 correct? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. Okay. Now, let me show you another photograph, 15 sir. This is marked as Defendant's Exhibit 122. Do you 16 recognize that as the door to the supervisor's or foreman's 17 office, sir? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. And would the job assignments be posted in this 20 box or would they be posted on the glass of the door? 21 A. They were taped on the front of the glass. 22 Q. Taped on the front of the glass? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. And then to the right I see a doorjamb, and it 25 looks to me like maybe it's two to two and a half feet 215 1 distance? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. And is that the door that leads to the break 4 room? 5 A. I assume it is, from not seeing the whole 6 picture. 7 Q. All right, sir. That appears to be consistent 8 with the prior photograph; correct? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. All right. Let me show you a photograph, sir, 11 and I recognize that there may be some changes in the 12 furniture and the appliances in this room, sir, but let me 13 tell you that this purports to be a view into the break room. 14 Do you recognize it as such, sir? 15 A. Yes. Yes, I do. 16 Q. And am I correct, sir, that this room is 17 furnished a little differently or perhaps some entirely 18 differently than it was on the date of September 14, 1989? 19 A. We had two large tables. There was a soft drink 20 machine to the right, a refrigerator in the back and a 21 microwave. That's all I basically remember about the room. 22 Q. All right. Does it look, then, to be somewhat 23 generally the same, sir? 24 A. Somewhat generally the same. 25 Q. All right. That is marked as Defendant's 216 1 Exhibit 126. Let me show you another photograph, sir. It's 2 marked as Defendant's Exhibit 127. Does that also show the 3 interior of the break room? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. And I see a -- what looks like to me to be a 6 door in the right-hand side; is that the door to the locker 7 room, sir? 8 A. That's correct. 9 Q. Refrigerator, looks like microwave and then it 10 looks like some windows along the back wall. Is that 11 accurate, sir? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. Finally, sir, a photograph marked as Defendant's 14 Exhibit 128. I will represent to you, sir, that this is a 15 photograph taken inside the break room and looking back at the 16 door that leads to the pressroom. Do you recognize it as 17 being such, sir? 18 A. Yes. There's a couple things in there I don't 19 recognize. 20 Q. All right. What do you not recognize, sir? 21 A. The two articles on the left-hand wall. 22 Q. These two items here? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. All right. They weren't there at the time, you 25 don't think? 217 1 A. I don't know what they are. 2 Q. All right, sir. Anything else that looks 3 different? And, again, this was taken sometime after the 4 shootings, sir. 5 A. Sometime after the shooting? 6 Q. Yes, sir. Quite sometime after. 7 A. I don't know what those articles are in there. 8 Q. All right. Otherwise, does it look 9 approximately the same as at the time of the shootings, sir? 10 A. Well, the two stands or cabinets or whatever is 11 on the left, they weren't there, and there was a chair against 12 the wall and that's where Kenny Fentress sat. 13 Q. I see. Anything else different? 14 A. I don't know. 15 Q. All right. Now, sir, if I understand correctly, 16 you were in the room -- in the break room that morning. Did 17 you give us a time as to when you got there, sir? 18 A. It was before 9:00. 19 Q. And I think you told us, if I recall correctly, 20 that you were coming off the one-to-nine shift? 21 A. Yes. I was waiting for my relief. 22 Q. And as soon as your relief got there you were 23 going to shower, change clothes and leave the premises; 24 correct? 25 A. That's correct. 218 1 Q. And I take it that your relief or the person 2 that was going to replace you had not shown up yet? 3 A. I didn't know. I don't know. I really didn't. 4 I didn't get the opportunity to follow through with that. 5 Q. All right, sir. Then if I heard you correctly, 6 sir, you were in the room and talking to Kenneth Fentress? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. I thought I understood you to say that you were 9 across the room from Mr. Fentress. 10 A. I was. 11 Q. I thought I understood you to say that Mr. 12 Fentress was seated in a chair where one of these cabinets or 13 whatever these objects were against this wall? 14 A. Yes. That's correct. 15 Q. And where were you seated then, sir? 16 A. At the second table. 17 Q. That table to the right? 18 A. (Nods head affirmatively). 19 Q. And were you facing in the wall or facing away 20 from it? 21 A. I was facing the door. 22 Q. Facing the door, so you were on this side; am I 23 right? 24 A. Yes. Maybe a little over to the right. 25 Q. Sort of off the picture; is that a fair 219 1 statement? 2 A. That's a fair description. 3 Q. Okay. And you were talking across the room to 4 Mr. Fentress who was located someplace over here? 5 A. There was a soft drink machine along that wall 6 and he was sitting beside the soft drink machine. 7 Q. Then if I understood you correctly, sir, you 8 heard a couple of sounds or pops which you understood to be 9 gunshots? 10 A. We heard several sounds, several pops. And it 11 broke the conversation up. Got everybody's attention. 12 Q. And if I understood you correctly, you heard Mr. 13 Fentress say that's Daunhauer coming to get us? 14 A. Something similar to the remark I heard. 15 Q. Did -- have you ever told anyone, sir, that Mr. 16 Fentress said that's Wesbecker coming to get us? 17 A. No. There was no mistake. Name was Daunhauer 18 that was used. 19 Q. Do you recall, Mr. Hoffmann, giving your 20 deposition in this case under oath on December 27, 1991? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. Let me direct your attention, sir, to Page 67, 23 Question 438, sir, and ask you if you gave these answers under 24 oath. 25 "Question: And when you thought they were 220 1 gunshots, what did you say or do? 2 "Answer: I don't remember the exact words. 3 "Question: What's your best sense of what 4 you -- 5 And then your answer was -- before I completed 6 the question -- "Answer: I don't know. I think somebody 7 jokingly made a remark about so-and-so was coming in to get us 8 or something and there were two or three men that came to my 9 mind that they were joking about, and I thought they were just 10 joking." 11 Am I to understand, sir, that today you recall 12 that it was David Daunhauer's name that was mentioned? 13 A. I've recalled that for quite a while that it was 14 Daunhauer's name that was used. 15 Q. On the date of the deposition you didn't recall 16 it, sir? 17 A. I don't know. I don't remember how it was 18 phrased. I know I was sick that day. I was sick and could 19 barely talk. 20 Q. Mr. Hoffmann, in connection with Mr. Wesbecker's 21 movements, you observed him as he was standing there at the 22 door of the break room on at least two occasions and then you 23 observed him turn and shoot himself; am I correct in my 24 understanding of what you observed, sir? 25 A. Yes, sir. 221 1 Q. During that period of time, sir, did you notice 2 anything unusual about the way Mr. Wesbecker moved or operated 3 in or around that break room? 4 A. He seemed to move in a rather jerky manner. He 5 was as if -- he was punching the gun when he shot it, almost 6 pointing it at people. 7 MR. SMITH: Your Honor, may I make an objection? 8 I have -- was not -- didn't have the deposition in front of me 9 when Mr. Stopher read Mr. Hoffmann's testimony to me -- to him 10 and he's totally misrepresented it. He left out an answer. 11 It says, "Well, one of them was Daunhauer." 12 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith, why don't you come up 13 here with your objection. 14 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 15 JUDGE POTTER: I don't understand. 16 MR. SMITH: He left out this sentence about him 17 saying it was Mr. Daunhauer. He answered that it was 18 Daunhauer. 19 MR. STOPHER: He said it might be Daunhauer. 20 JUDGE POTTER: Don't two of you talk at once. 21 Mr. Smith, he did read I don't know. I think somebody was 22 joking, made a remark, thought they were just joking and, 23 what, two or three men came to your mind. And then when did 24 you read on, Mr. Stopher, what did you read then? 25 MR. STOPHER: No, sir. I read the Question 222 1 439 -- excuse me, 438 through 439, which is what he remembered 2 that was said. And then he goes on in 440 to say the 3 identities of people and he names two or three people here 4 that came to his mind, but the question was what was said. 5 JUDGE POTTER: So you're saying he just didn't 6 read a complete answer; is that right? 7 MR. SMITH: Yeah. He didn't read the whole 8 thing. 9 JUDGE POTTER: In the future, Mr. Stopher, give 10 them a chance to read along with you and then you can just 11 pick it up on redirect, Mr. Smith. Because he did read 12 correctly. 13 MR. SMITH: But he didn't read all of it. 14 JUDGE POTTER: Well, it's 200 pages. 15 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 16 Q. Mr. Campbell -- 17 A. It's Hoffmann. 18 Q. I'm sorry. Mr. Hoffmann, you recall on December 19 27, 1991, giving your deposition and I thought I understood 20 you to say that you were ill that day? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. Before I go to Page 74, let me go back to Page 5 23 of the deposition. 24 "Question No. 1: Would you state your name for 25 us, please, sir. 223 1 "Answer: William Thomas Hoffmann. 2 "Question: Mr. Hoffmann, I introduced myself 3 earlier; my name is Ed Stopher and with Charlie Beams, who's 4 seated here by side, we represent Eli Lilly and Company. 5 "Answer: Okay. 6 "Question: And I want to ask you questions 7 about the lawsuit that you have filed against Eli Lilly and 8 Company. You are represented today by your attorney, Mr. 9 Kenealy, and at any time today that you want to talk with him 10 privately or otherwise, you have the right to do that; is that 11 understood by you, sir? 12 "Answer: That's understood. 13 "Question: At any time that you want to take a 14 break, use the rest room, get a drink of water or whatever, 15 you have that right, also. This is not an endurance contest 16 by any means and so you simply let us know when you desire to 17 walk around or take a break. Fair enough? 18 "Answer: All right. 19 "Question: I will also today try to make my 20 questions simple and understandable. If at any time they 21 aren't simple and understandable, would you please let me 22 know? 23 "Answer: Gladly. 24 "Question: All right, sir. If you respond to a 25 question and give us an answer under oath, I will assume that 224 1 you did understand the question and that you intended your 2 answer to be in compliance with the oath; is that agreeable 3 with you? 4 "Answer: I agree." 5 Now, sir -- 6 MR. SMITH: Your Honor, under the rule of 7 optional completeness, can we read the next question and 8 answer at this time? 9 MR. STOPHER: I'll be glad to read the next 10 question and answer. 11 "Question: I'm going to ask you to do one final 12 thing today. It appears to me that you may have a cold which 13 makes it difficult to speak loudly, but all of us here in the 14 room want to hear what you have to say. Some of these guys 15 are down here at the end of the table a pretty good distance, 16 but it will save you some breath if you try to sound it out 17 the best you can. 18 "Answer: I'll try." 19 Did you give those answers, sir? 20 A. Yes, sir. I assume I did. I don't have the 21 text in front of me. 22 Q. I understand, sir. 23 Now, let me refer you to Page 74, and I'll be 24 glad to read this and then show you the text, sir, so you can 25 check the accuracy of my reading this. 225 1 "Question 486: Did you notice anything unusual 2 about his limbs, I'm talking about his arms or his legs and 3 the way he moved or held himself or operated in the room? 4 "Answer: Not at that time." 5 Would you want to see that question and answer, 6 sir? (Shows document to Witness) Question 486. 7 A. (Reviews document) Okay. 8 Q. Is that the answer you gave, sir? 9 A. That's the answer I gave that day. 10 Q. Now, sir, if I understand correctly, there were 11 other names that came to your mind as to who may have come 12 back in other than David Daunhauer; is that true, sir? 13 A. I think I told you that that was in a joking 14 manner about some of the other people saying they would not go 15 alone. 16 Q. You also mentioned Ron Humphrey; correct? 17 A. Yes, I did. 18 Q. You also mentioned Charlie Ganote; correct? 19 A. Yes, I did. And those were joking comments that 20 they made and I made that -- I think I made that explicit. 21 Q. Now, sir, if I understand correctly, you 22 observed Mr. Wesbecker step outside the room and get another 23 weapon out of his belt or out of a pocket or someplace on his 24 person; did I understand you correctly, sir? 25 A. Yes, sir. 226 1 Q. At the time that he used that gun on himself, 2 sir, do you know if he was facing toward the break room, away 3 from the break room or where he was with regard to that door? 4 A. Through the window in the break room I could see 5 his left shoulder and the left side of his face, and as he 6 brought the gun up, I saw his chin go up and he turned to 7 the -- he was turning to the right. 8 Q. Turning to the right? 9 A. Which would have made his back to me as he shot 10 himself. 11 Q. In other words, sir, if I understand correctly, 12 he would have been standing outside the door of the break 13 room; you could see the left side of his shoulder; am I 14 correct? 15 A. By then I was all the way on the other side of 16 the room, too. 17 Q. Way over to this side? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. Okay. Which would have put him someplace in 20 this vicinity or perhaps further? 21 A. He was further out from the door so I could see. 22 He could have been further toward Press Number One because he 23 was further out in the area. That's about how far out he was. 24 He was in the press area itself. 25 Q. All right. My finger is about on this 227 1 photograph where you think his feet were? 2 A. This is going to be hard to judge. 3 Q. I understand, sir, it's been five years or more. 4 But is that approximately correct? 5 A. Approximately. 6 Q. All right. And he was standing up at that time, 7 sir? 8 A. He was -- from the time he went out the door, he 9 was fumbling in front of the door for something in his belt or 10 his pocket. I could see him and his left shoulder was to me 11 and I could see the side of his head, and he gradually turned 12 around to where I saw the back. And I think he stepped away 13 from the door, but I saw the recoil of his body as it spasmed 14 and jerked when he shot himself in the head, but I saw the 15 back, the rear of his body and the back of his head. 16 Q. If I understand you correctly, then, sir, his 17 back at the time he shot himself was toward the foreman's 18 office door? 19 A. I would think so. 20 Q. And he was facing out into the pressroom away 21 from that door? 22 A. That's the way his body landed. 23 Q. And where did his body land, sir? 24 A. Out in this area. 25 Q. Right in front of the foreman's? 228 1 A. I was sitting -- when the police came and the 2 EMT people I was behind Press Number Two. 3 Q. You were over in here? 4 A. I was behind it, say, between the break room 5 door and Press Number Two. Wesbecker was to my left over here 6 in front of that cylinder but further out from the wall. 7 Q. All right. He was generally in this area? 8 A. Yes. Yes, sir. 9 Q. Right in front of the foreman's office door? 10 A. No. He was further over. 11 Q. Okay. A little bit this way? 12 A. A little bit that way and a little bit this way. 13 Q. Okay. All right. Mr. Hoffmann, in connection 14 with a police interview, you mentioned that you did talk on 15 one occasion with a Detective Cheryl Jackman, but more as a 16 social or friendly kind of visit; am I correct about that? 17 A. Yes, sir. I don't remember giving any 18 statements to anybody. 19 Q. You don't recall giving a statement to 20 Lieutenant Donald Burbrink of the Louisville Police 21 Department? 22 A. Have no recollection of it at all. 23 Q. All right, sir. Your Honor, we move to admit 24 photographs that have been identified and numbered as 25 Defendant's Exhibit 127, 122, 126, 128 and 123 and 119, sir. 229 1 JUDGE POTTER: Be admitted. 2 MR. STOPHER: Thank you, Your Honor. That's all 3 I have. 4 Thank you, Mr. Hoffmann. 5 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith? 6 7 FURTHER_EXAMINATION _______ ___________ 8 9 BY_MR._SMITH: __ ___ ______ 10 Q. Couple of follow-up questions, Mr. Hoffmann, to 11 get this record straight. May I approach the Witness, Your 12 Honor? Show the Witness his sworn deposition. I point to you 13 on Page 67 beginning at Line 22, Question 440: "And what two 14 to three men came to your mind? 15 "Answer: Well, one of them was Daunhauer. That 16 may have been who they were talking about. I'm not sure. 17 "Question 441: Who else came to your mind? 18 "Answer: There was a couple of guys. Ron 19 Humphrey had made statements that he wouldn't go alone, but I 20 think that was in a joking fashion. 21 "Question 442: Who else came to your mind? 22 "I think Charlie Ganote's name may have been 23 mentioned but, again, in a joking way." Correct? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. "Question 443: Who mentioned Ganote's name? 230 1 "Answer: I don't remember because there were 2 several conversations going on in the room." Correct? 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. "Question 444: Did anybody mention Wesbecker's 5 name? 6 "Answer: Not to my knowledge, because I still 7 didn't know it was Wesbecker until after I had been shot or as 8 I got shot." Is that what your true, correct testimony was? 9 A. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. 10 Q. Did anybody every mention Joseph Wesbecker 11 before this shooting when those shots were heard? 12 A. No, sir. 13 Q. No further questions. 14 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much, sir. You 15 may step down. You're excused. 16 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 17 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith, how long do you 18 estimate your next witness will be? 19 MR. SMITH: I don't know. Forty-five minutes. 20 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. We'll take a recess. 21 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 22 JUDGE POTTER: Ladies and gentlemen, I'm going 23 to take an evening recess and I'm going to change procedures a 24 little bit where you-all go back to the jury room and let my 25 sheriff take up all your notes and everything, so take them 231 1 with you. 2 I'm going to give you the same admonition I gave 3 you before. Do not let anyone speak with or communicate with 4 you on any topic connected with this trial, and the key part 5 of that is that it not only applies to somebody who might have 6 some interest in the case or some improper motive. We're 7 talking about your friends, your family; don't let them talk 8 to you. Don't let the newspaper or the television talk to you 9 and don't let people you know talk about this case. That 10 also includes these articles about Prozac or whatever you 11 think is the topic that's going on here. So do something else 12 with your time besides that. Okay? Do not discuss it with 13 each other and do not form or express opinions about it. 14 We'll stand in recess till 9:00 tomorrow morning. Thank you 15 all. 16 (JURORS EXCUSED AT 4:55 P.M.; THE FOLLOWING 17 PROCEEDINGS OCCURRED IN ROOM 148) 18 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Somebody mentioned they 19 had something they wanted to take up. 20 MR. FREEMAN: Judge, this morning we were handed 21 the following list which has the depositions of Fuller, 22 Slater, Stark, Wernecke, Webb and Dobbs mentioned in a very 23 general way. I asked Mr. Smith if he intended to read the 24 entire depositions and he said no, that they expected to read 25 portions of them. Now, in accordance with the Court's order 232 1 and to make this trial run anywhere near smoothly, we're going 2 to need to know what portions he's going to read for two or 3 three reasons. First of all, which ones we're going to object 4 to. 5 JUDGE POTTER: I agree. Have you marked them, 6 Mr. Smith? 7 MR. SMITH: We've been trying to. We just 8 haven't gotten to them, Your Honor. I apologize. We're just 9 trying to get as much as we can and, frankly, we're trying to 10 schedule more live witnesses. We will have all live witnesses 11 tomorrow, but I'm not so sure that we can -- some of these 12 people -- we're moving now into people we don't have as much 13 control over and we may need to fill in. We'll try to get 14 something for Mr. Freeman in the morning. I understand his 15 predicament, but my predicament is I'm trying to do a bunch of 16 things. 17 JUDGE POTTER: I'm sure you-all find it hard to 18 believe, but I really think this week is kind of a lull in the 19 trial. I know you don't think it's that, but in the big 20 picture I see it as a lull. And I really think Ms. Zettler or 21 Mr. Foley or somebody needs to try to sit down and get a 22 yellow marker and go through your copy, mark what you want, 23 show it to them, see if you can work it out and, if you can't, 24 we'll come in at 8:30 and spend an hour that day, and go 25 through it line by line. 233 1 MR. FREEMAN: Some of these depositions are four 2 days long. 3 JUDGE POTTER: No. You just need to go through 4 what he's marked. 5 MR. FREEMAN: That's what I'm talking about. 6 MR. SMITH: I apologize, Your Honor. We'll try 7 to have that for them the next time. 8 JUDGE POTTER: This is where we could bog down. 9 Everybody agrees that the only exhibits that came in today 10 were Defendant's exhibits; is that right? 11 MS. ZETTLER: Yeah. Yeah. No plaintiffs' 12 exhibits. 13 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher, you want to have 14 your crew -- 15 MR. STOPHER: All right, Judge. 16 JUDGE POTTER: I'm not criticizing your-all's 17 list. It might have a lot more on it for your own purposes. 18 This one keeps going forward every day; that would never 19 change. This one they will redo tomorrow because they'll be 20 putting some in or maybe the numbering system they'll add 21 them. 22 MS. ZETTLER: You just have a lot more 23 information. You've got -- theirs I don't need. You keep up 24 with yours, the day it came in, who the witness is and the 25 exhibit number. 234 1 MS. ZETTLER: Okay. That's fine. The confusion 2 with 165 and 166, that's straightened out in your mind? 3 JUDGE POTTER: That's straightened out in my 4 mind. 166 and 165 came in today. How are we going to 5 maintain these exhibits? 6 MR. STOPHER: Judge, may I make a suggestion? 7 Why don't you just have each party be responsible for their 8 exhibits. 9 JUDGE POTTER: Well, I think we ought to have 10 some system of maintaining them. I think once they're 11 introduced they ought to be available. At this point you can 12 put all yours in one folder. 13 MR. STOPHER: Right. 14 JUDGE POTTER: And so I think each party ought 15 to be responsible for keeping their exhibits on that table and 16 then there's a filing cabinet there if we have to go to that, 17 but you've got to have them numbered in some kind of order so 18 that people can find them. 19 MR. FREEMAN: Do you want them by number or 20 chronologically as introduced by witness? 21 JUDGE POTTER: I think probably by number. I 22 mean, you'll have this kind of sheet that says everything that 23 came in through Angela Bowman, so you know you could get 22, 24 and then look on here and see what it is, because I don't 25 think we'd ever find it otherwise. We'll try that; if it 235 1 doesn't work, we'll have to come up with Plan B. 2 MS. ZETTLER: Judge, I was just wondering, we'd 3 like copies of the photographs that Mr. Stopher is entering in 4 as exhibits because it's very confusing as to which is what 5 and who is where. 6 MR. STOPHER: Sure. 7 MR. SMITH: Also, if I could get copies of those 8 photographs I wouldn't have to be standing over there next to 9 the jury box and, more importantly, next to Mr. Freeman. 10 MR. FREEMAN: It's my pleasure. 11 MR. SMITH: I can stay at counsel table. We've 12 been providing them with copies of our exhibits, as well. 13 JUDGE POTTER: Are you doing them on a color 14 Xerox? 15 MR. STOPHER: Yes. They came over and looked at 16 all the photographs that they wanted introduced. So I gave 17 them the ones that they wanted. I was not aware until she 18 mentioned it to me today that she didn't ask for a complete 19 set, so I'm going to introduce them all eventually. 20 MS. ZETTLER: But we need to know which one he's 21 marking as exhibits and when and where. 22 MR. STOPHER: There are 1 through 350. 23 JUDGE POTTER: And we've got the police ones 24 that are matching? 25 MR. STOPHER: There are some police photographs 236 1 in there. 2 JUDGE POTTER: But we're dealing right now with 3 sort of clean photographs; right? 4 MR. STOPHER: Sure. 5 MS. ZETTLER: We haven't seen the messy police 6 photographs. 7 JUDGE POTTER: I didn't know if the 300 included 8 the messy ones or not? 9 MR. STOPHER: No. No. 10 JUDGE POTTER: There are two places I see this 11 case having serious problems. One is the handling of 12 exhibits, and I think that we can doctor it as we go along and 13 make it work, and for right now each person maintain their 14 exhibits, keep them in order. There are some book ends that 15 you can put them out on the table or put them in the cabinet 16 as you want. There are some folders; put them in that. I 17 don't know if you want to label the folders or whatever you 18 have to do. 19 The other place I really do see it becoming a 20 problem or becoming unglued is deposition objections and the 21 only -- the ball's in your court. The only thing to do is to 22 mark it, get it to them ahead of time and then have someone, 23 whether it's Mr. Foley or Ms. Zettler -- you can't be every 24 place, Mr. Smith, and you'll have to live and die with 25 whatever they do and let them make decisions. 237 1 MR. SMITH: I'll live and die with what Nancy 2 Zettler does any day of the week. 3 JUDGE POTTER: No, you can't be everywhere and 4 Ms. Zettler is -- you know, knows this case as well as anybody 5 and, as I can tell, is a very capable advocate, and it will 6 give Mr. Myers something to do and let those two battle it out 7 over those two depositions. 8 MS. ZETTLER: Me and Larry again, huh? 9 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. See you-all at quarter of 10 in the morning in case there's any kind of problems. 11 (PROCEEDINGS TERMINATED THIS DATE AT 5:05 P.M.) 12 * * * 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 238 1 STATE OF KENTUCKY )( )( Sct. 2 COUNTY OF JEFFERSON )( 3 I, JULIA K. McBRIDE, Notary Public, State of 4 Kentucky at Large, hereby certify that the foregoing 5 Transcript of the Proceedings was taken at the time and place 6 stated in the caption; that the appearances were as set forth 7 in the caption; that said proceeding was taken down by me in 8 stenographic notes and thereafter reduced under my supervision 9 to the foregoing typewritten pages and that said typewritten 10 transcript is a true, accurate and complete record of my 11 stenographic notes so taken. 12 I further certify that I am not related by blood 13 or marriage to any of the parties hereto and that I have no 14 interest in the outcome of captioned case. 15 My commission as Notary Public expires 16 December 21, 1996. 17 Given under my hand this the__________day of 18 ______________________, 1994, at Louisville, Kentucky. 19 20 21 22 23 _____________________________ 24 NOTARY PUBLIC 25