1 1 NO. 90-CI-06033 JEFFERSON CIRCUIT COURT DIVISION ONE 2 3 4 JOYCE FENTRESS, et al PLAINTIFFS 5 6 VS TRANSCRIPT_OF_THE_PROCEEDINGS __________ __ ___ ___________ 7 8 9 SHEA COMMUNICATIONS, et al DEFENDANTS 10 11 * * * 12 13 14 MONDAY, OCTOBER 31, 1994 15 VOLUME XXVI 16 17 * * * 18 19 20 21 _____________________________________________________________ REPORTER: JULIA K. McBRIDE 22 Coulter, Shay, McBride & Rice 1221 Starks Building 23 455 South Fourth Avenue Louisville, Kentucky 40202 24 (502) 582-1627 FAX: (502) 587-6299 25 2 1 2 I_N_D_E_X _ _ _ _ _ 3 4 WITNESS: BRENDA_J._CAMP (Continued) _______ ______ __ ____ 5 By Mr. Stopher........................................... 4 By Mr. Smith............................................. 42 6 By Mr. Stopher........................................... 73 7 WITNESS:__THOMAS_GOSLING ________ ______ _______ 8 By Mr. Stopher........................................... 77 By Mr. Smith.............................................105 9 By Mr. Stopher...........................................128 By Mr. Smith.............................................131 10 By Mr. Stopher...........................................132 11 WITNESS:__JAMES_POPHAM ________ _____ ______ 12 By Mr. Stopher...........................................133 By Ms. Zettler...........................................155 13 WITNESS: WILLIAM_B._HELM _______ _______ __ ____ 14 Voir Dire by Judge Potter................................159 15 * * * 16 Hearing in Chambers......................................167 17 Reporter's Certificate...................................170 18 19 * * * 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 1 2 A_P_P_E_A_R_A_N_C_E_S _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 3 4 FOR THE PLAINTIFFS: 5 PAUL L. SMITH Suite 745 6 Campbell Center II 8150 North Central Expressway 7 Dallas, Texas 75206 8 NANCY ZETTLER 1405 West Norwell Lane 9 Schaumburg, Illinois 60193 10 IRVIN D. FOLEY Rubin, Hays & Foley 11 300 South, First Trust Centre Louisville, Kentucky 40202 12 13 FOR THE DEFENDANT: 14 EDWARD H. STOPHER Boehl, Stopher & Graves 15 2300 Providian Center Louisville, Kentucky 40202 16 JOE C. FREEMAN, JR. 17 LAWRENCE J. MYERS Freeman & Hawkins 18 4000 One Peachtree Center 303 Peachtree Street, N.E. 19 Atlanta, Georgia 30308 20 * * * 21 22 23 24 25 4 1 The Transcript of the Proceedings, taken before 2 The Honorable John Potter in the Multipurpose Courtroom, Old 3 Jail Office Building, Louisville, Kentucky, commencing on 4 Monday, October 31, 1994, at approximately 9:35 A.M., said 5 proceedings occurred as follows: 6 7 * * * 8 9 SHERIFF CECIL: All rise. The Honorable Judge 10 John Potter is now presiding. Court is now in session. All 11 jurors are present. You may be seated. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Please be seated. Ladies and 13 gentlemen of the jury, did anybody have any difficulty 14 observing my admonition about getting information on this case 15 from friends, neighbors, television, newspapers? Okay. 16 Ms. Camp, I'll ask you to retake the stand, 17 ma'am. I'll remind you you're still under oath. Ma'am, I 18 remind you you're still under oath. 19 Mr. Stopher. 20 MR. STOPHER: Thank you, Judge. 21 22 EXAMINATION 23 24 BY_MR._STOPHER: (Continued) __ ___ _______ 25 Q. Ms. Camp, let me direct your attention again 5 1 back to Joseph Wesbecker, and just to kind of get us some 2 historical perspective again, if I recall correctly, you told 3 us on Friday that you met him the Thanksgiving -- around 4 Thanksgiving of 1980? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Married in 1981? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Divorced in 1984? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And then in 1985, he purchased the house on 11 Nottoway Circle, and you went to live with him there? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And then you lived with him at Nottoway until 14 around Thanksgivingtime of 1988? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. And then if I understand correctly, after 17 Thanksgiving of 1988, you lived at your father's house 18 continuously on Blevins Gap Road? 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. And if I understand correctly, your father died 21 and left the house to you, and your father died in July of 22 '89; am I right? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. Did you say the 14th of July? 25 A. 14th of July. 6 1 Q. Now, again, just in terms of historical 2 perspective and then I'll hopefully not retrace any of the 3 steps that we did on Friday, during that last year, so far as 4 you know, Joseph Wesbecker lived alone in the house on 5 Nottoway; am I correct about that? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And if I understand correctly, you would check 8 on him from time to time; is that right? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. And sometimes he would come to your house on 11 Blevins Gap Road? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. During that period of time, the time that you 14 moved out, until the time of these shootings on September 14, 15 1989, did he have any social friends, to your knowledge? 16 A. I don't know with us not living together. I 17 mean, we went out. He went out with his son, Jimmy. He would 18 go check -- I don't remember the exact date Grandma Montgomery 19 passed away. He would go to the nursing home and check on 20 her. Beyond that, I don't know who he went out with. 21 Q. Did he ever mention to you that he had been out 22 with anybody or that he had any friends or any interests or 23 any social contact? 24 A. No. I didn't ask. 25 Q. And he didn't tell you anything about that? 7 1 A. No. 2 Q. Now, on Friday, we were talking near the end of 3 your testimony about a red Chevrolet Monza vehicle shown in 4 some photographs; right? 5 A. Correct. 6 Q. And if I recall correctly, that is and was -- or 7 was, is perhaps the right term -- your vehicle that you owned? 8 A. Yes. My father helped me buy that car after my 9 first divorce. 10 Q. And you let Joseph Wesbecker drive it; am I 11 correct? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. Did he own a vehicle at that time? 14 A. He signed his -- I guess, I don't know if he 15 still -- I believe he put his Oldsmobile in his son's name and 16 he would ask to borrow my car. 17 Q. Now, he had at some point in time an Oldsmobile, 18 if I understand correctly, then? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. And what did he do with that vehicle? 21 A. He gave it to his son Jimmy. 22 Q. And did Jimmy drive it? 23 A. As far as I know. 24 Q. Where was it kept? 25 A. I don't know because I wasn't in the marriage 8 1 anymore and Jimmy lived with Joe's ex-wife, Sue, so I don't 2 know where they lived after they left Dixie Highway. 3 Q. Was that vehicle ever kept or parked at Blevins 4 Gap Road at your house or your father's house at times? 5 A. When Jimmy would come to visit me or come to 6 visit his dad when he was over seeing me. Sometimes I had 7 Jimmy over and he would visit. 8 Q. Would it be parked in front or would it be 9 parked in back? 10 A. It would have been parked in front and in the 11 back some. 12 Q. Why would it be parked in the back sometimes? 13 A. At one time Joe took the car away from his son 14 because of exposure problems and he wouldn't let him drive for 15 a while. 16 Q. Did he want people to see that vehicle at his 17 house or your house? 18 A. Well, at my home it wouldn't be seen back by 19 garages. At the house on Nottoway, it would have been seen 20 unless he put it in the garage. 21 Q. Why did Joe Wesbecker not want that vehicle to 22 be seen in connection with him? 23 A. It wasn't with him; it was with his son. 24 Q. And why didn't he want it to be seen? 25 A. Because Jimmy had exposure problems and he had a 9 1 lot of people that were not happy with him. And I don't know 2 all the details. You know, Jimmy stopped being my stepson in 3 1984, even though I still seen him and tried to treat him 4 nice. I don't know why all; they talked themselves on that. 5 Q. Did Joe Wesbecker then have in the year 1988, 6 1989, any vehicle that he owned at all? 7 A. Not that I'm aware of. 8 Q. Ms. Camp, could Joe Wesbecker drive easily? 9 A. No, not real easy. 10 Q. Could you explain what his problems were with 11 driving? 12 A. Joe wanted to be extra careful with him being on 13 medication that he wasn't driving. He would have trouble with 14 his vision at night. He didn't like to go to the county jail 15 by himself to visit his son, the emotion of that, so I would 16 usually drive him after work. I guess that's the only 17 reasons. He never give me any other reasons. 18 Q. Was it easier for him to drive at night or in 19 the daytime? 20 A. I believe in the daytime but he didn't -- he was 21 on disability from Social Security in the end, so I really 22 don't know when he drove, you know, other than when I went 23 with him. 24 Q. Did his vision problems in driving, were they 25 greater at night or in the daytime? 10 1 A. What he told me they were worse in the night. 2 That's why I would take him places. 3 Q. Let me show you a map that is enlarged. Can you 4 see that from where you sit? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. I'm not sure that everybody else can but let 7 me -- if I turn it a little; is that all right? Can everybody 8 see it? Let me first of all get you oriented on this map just 9 a little bit. Up here at the very top, the northern edge, is 10 the Ohio River, the downtown area here. And at the very 11 bottom of this map is 265, or the Gene Snyder, and Blevins Gap 12 Road runs along the border in that area; correct? Are you 13 kind of generally oriented now? 14 A. As best I can by looking at it. 15 Q. Okay. Admittedly a lot of details and a lot of 16 surface streets are missing off of this map, so it's not 17 complete by any means. There are a lot of things that have 18 not been shown. You recognize Churchill Downs and the 19 airport, Iroquois Park. I've also marked on this map Nottoway 20 Circle, which is between Dixie and I believe -- well, I'll let 21 you talk about it in a second. Do you see that mark? 22 A. Uh-huh. 23 Q. I've also marked Trent Street. Okay. Now, are 24 you generally familiar now with the areas that I'm talking 25 about as shown on this map? 11 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. Can you tell me generally where your house is 3 located along -- or your dad's house is located on Blevins Gap 4 Road? 5 A. It's about two miles off Dixie Highway, so I'm 6 closer to Dixie Highway. 7 Q. So if I start on this edge, go about two miles 8 and that would be about where you were? 9 A. I'm closer to Dixie; correct. 10 Q. In looking at this map, it appears to me, using 11 this scale, that that location is about perhaps as much as 15 12 to 20 miles from the downtown area; is that approximately 13 right? 14 A. I believe it's approximately 17 miles. 15 Q. Seventeen miles by your -- 16 A. When I drive it, I would say about 17 miles. 17 Q. All right. And in looking at the map and 18 Nottoway Circle, it appears that that home is about maybe five 19 to six miles as the crow flies and perhaps a little longer 20 than that by road; is that a fair statement? 21 A. I've never measured the distance between those 22 two houses; I just always drove it, so I don't honestly know. 23 Q. Okay. All right. And am I correct that Sue and 24 Jimmy lived on Trent Street? 25 A. Yeah. It was across from Zayre's. It's now 12 1 Kroger's. Yeah, I believe it was Trent. 2 Q. Okay. And not too far from where the Roy's 3 place of business is on Dixie? 4 A. You could have walked it. Yeah. They were real 5 close. 6 Q. Okay. I'll put this aside. Now, in the period 7 of time shortly before you moved out, was there ever an 8 incident involving lawn mowers at the house on Nottoway? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. Would you tell the jury about that incident. 11 A. I always cut the grass there, I mean, most of 12 the time. Sometimes when we first moved in, Joe would cut 13 grass or he would get Jimmy to cut it; in the end, I always 14 cut it. And both lawn mowers were giving trouble so Joe took 15 a -- I don't know if it's a sledge hammer, an axe, I don't 16 know. I wasn't in the garage when he was doing it, I could 17 just -- I was in the kitchen close to the den and he was 18 either -- I don't know, beating the lawn mowers to death or 19 cutting them up. But they weren't usable. You know, he tore 20 up our lawn mowers. 21 Q. Did he ever give any warning that he was going 22 to do that? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Did he ever give any explanation afterwards as 25 to why he did that? 13 1 A. He just said we wouldn't be cutting grass 2 anymore. 3 Q. And was that before you moved out in November of 4 '88? 5 A. Yeah. As best -- I don't remember -- I would 6 say it was the summer because that was when we'd be cutting 7 grass, and I moved out in November. 8 Q. And if I understand correctly, it wasn't too 9 long after that that you moved out to your father's house on 10 Blevins Gap? 11 A. I didn't -- I mean, my father become real ill, 12 he become hospitalized, so I moved back in with him. 13 Q. Now, Ms. Camp, in connection with Joe Wesbecker 14 and going back now some period of time, did you ever know of 15 any physical fights or incidents that he had with Sue 16 Wesbecker? 17 A. One. 18 Q. Would you tell us about that, please. 19 A. I went to get my daughter uniforms for St. 20 Paul's, and when I come home he told me of the incident. I 21 don't -- I don't remember all the details. There might have 22 been two times. One time she said she was having trouble with 23 the furnace and he come home with his face all scratched up, 24 his leather coat tore and he was clawed bad, and he said she 25 tried to contain him in the house. That's only hearsay. I 14 1 wasn't there. I looked at him. That's right after we started 2 dating, I believe, and were thinking about getting married. 3 The other incident, they were arguing about 4 Jimmy. He went over. His side of the story, he said he 5 shoved her, he said, over the fence, she smacked him. I'm not 6 present. I didn't know he was going. He mentioned, "I'm 7 going over." I said, "Stay away. Let me ride with you in the 8 car." He didn't. When I come home, he told me the story 9 because I was gone to get uniforms for school, so, I mean, 10 that's the best I remember it, but I think that's the only two 11 times that I'm aware of. 12 Q. Did he ever give you any warning in advance that 13 he was going over to see her and that it might be physical or 14 there may be a fight? 15 A. No. He just said he was going over to try to 16 talk to her about Jimmy and I told him to stay away. 17 Q. On the two occasions that you told us about on 18 Friday when he attempted suicide, did he ever give any 19 warning -- not necessarily by what he said but by anything he 20 did or the way he acted in advance that indicated in any way 21 to you that he was thinking about suicide? 22 A. The carbon monoxide, no. The pills and running 23 up and down the subdivision, no. There was no prewarning. 24 Q. Nothing any different about the way he handled 25 himself or presented himself or any mood difference? 15 1 A. No. Hunh-uh. 2 Q. Nothing at all? 3 A. Nothing. 4 Q. With regard to the second attempt, which you 5 described on Friday, it involved running up and down the 6 street, and then I understood you to say that the door was 7 beat into the house and things were thrown about and there was 8 an overdose of pills, both prescription and over-the-counter? 9 A. They were all mixed together so I don't know how 10 many it took or what it -- I mean, stuff was just threw 11 places. 12 Q. Can you tell us which of these events occurred 13 first, the running up and down the street? 14 A. Let me think, because that's a long time. 15 Carbon monoxide first and running up and down the street 16 second. 17 Q. Right. All right. Now, with regard to running 18 up and down the street, did he run up and down the street 19 first or did he beat the door down first or tear the house up 20 first or take -- 21 A. I don't know. I was at work. 22 Q. All right. After you got there, what did he do? 23 A. He was running up and down the street when I was 24 driving my car down the road. I seen him. 25 Q. Had he already beat the door down? 16 1 A. The house was already -- yeah, I mean, it was 2 already when I got in. 3 Q. And when did he take the pills? 4 A. I don't know. I mean, through the day. I 5 wasn't there. 6 Q. You said you stayed there that night. Did he 7 take more pills that night? 8 A. I don't know. I locked myself in a bedroom and 9 didn't come out. 10 Q. Now, during the approximately nine years that 11 you knew him, did he want you to talk about his mental illness 12 to other people? 13 A. I guess I would have to say no. 14 Q. Would he let you talk to his mother about his 15 mental problems? 16 MR. SMITH: We're going to object to the leading 17 nature of the questions. 18 JUDGE POTTER: Sustained. 19 Q. Did he ever tell you you could or you could not 20 discuss his mental problems with somebody else? 21 A. In the beginning, with his mother and I we had a 22 good relationship. I would still see her at some family 23 functions and we would talk. As far as forbidding me -- 24 Q. As far as what, ma'am? 25 A. Forbidding -- forbidding me to talk to her about 17 1 it, I mean, he just didn't want me to talk to her the last 2 probably three years I knew him because he wasn't talking to 3 her. 4 Q. All right. Let me see if this reference in your 5 prior deposition is of any assistance to you. And I'm 6 referring to page -- 7 MR. SMITH: Can we approach the bench, Your 8 Honor? 9 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 10 MR. SMITH: We object to Mr. Stopher impeaching 11 his own witness with deposition testimony. It's not proper 12 procedure. 13 MR. STOPHER: Judge, I am entitled to remind her 14 of testimony that she's given before that may be inconsistent 15 with what she's saying now. 16 JUDGE POTTER: He can impeach his own witness. 17 MR. SMITH: With her own deposition? 18 JUDGE POTTER: Yeah. 19 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 20 Q. Again, let me ask you if you gave this testimony 21 on October 26, 1992, under oath, and I'm referring to 22 Page 174, Line 14, you said quote, you know, this is -- 23 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 24 MR. SMITH: Judge, we're going to object to 25 this. Counsel is reading the middle of the answer. 18 1 MR. STOPHER: If you want me to read the whole 2 thing, Counsel, I think you'll be objecting more. 3 MR. SMITH: Object to the side-bar comment. 4 MR. STOPHER: You made it, you started it. This 5 is one of the long answers and all I wanted to read was these 6 two paragraphs to give her some context. 7 JUDGE POTTER: (Reviews document) What part do 8 you plan to read her? 9 MR. STOPHER: Just this little part right here, 10 Judge. If he wants me to read the whole answer, I'll read the 11 whole answer, but it's just that statement under oath that I 12 wanted to remind her about. 13 JUDGE POTTER: I'm going to sustain the 14 objection. I really don't think that's inconsistent with what 15 she said today. 16 MR. STOPHER: She said today he never asked her 17 not to tell her. 18 JUDGE POTTER: She used the word forbid. 19 MR. STOPHER: Well, can I ask her to clarify? 20 JUDGE POTTER: Yes. 21 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 22 Q. Ms. Camp, did Joe Wesbecker ever ask you not to 23 tell anyone about his mental condition or about his condition 24 generally? 25 A. You know, the last question was asked to me if I 19 1 wasn't allowed to talk to his mother. The last two times Joe 2 went in the hospital he did not want me to tell his sons nor 3 his mother that he was in the hospital at Our Lady of Peace. 4 I don't know if that's -- I mean, I don't totally understand 5 the question, but he did not want me to tell them that he had 6 entered the hospital. 7 Q. Would he allow you to tell them what his 8 condition was? 9 A. I didn't talk a tremendous amount with his 10 mother or his sons. I wasn't in the marriage anymore. 11 Q. Did he tell you why he didn't want you to tell 12 them that he had been in the hospital or was in the hospital? 13 A. Joe didn't like to be around his mother anymore. 14 I can't totally speak for why their relationship was like it 15 was between mother and son. I could only speculate. I don't 16 know why Joe didn't want his sons to know everything about 17 him. I didn't ask him. I stayed out of it pretty much. 18 Q. And he didn't tell you? 19 A. He didn't tell me why. I just obeyed him. I 20 didn't go -- I don't do that to people if they have something 21 private. I don't run and tell their families and neighbors 22 and people like that about them. 23 Q. Ms. Camp, during the last year or so of his 24 life, did he have anybody other than you that would listen to 25 him? 20 1 A. The last year he lived? 2 Q. Yes, ma'am. 3 A. He was very close to Jimmy. We remained friends 4 where we went out and were together. I think he still had a 5 couple men that he was close to from Standard Gravure, but I 6 do not know their names, because when we lived at Nottoway, 7 some of the men from Standard Gravure would come by and visit 8 him, and I'd go in the house and let them talk. Other than 9 that, I don't know if he had any friends. 10 Q. During that last period of time from November of 11 '88 until September of 1989, that's about ten months in there, 12 can you tell us how many times you think you had contact with 13 him? 14 A. If I guessed without, you know, probably 80 15 times. 16 Q. It would be as often then as maybe once a week 17 or twice a week? 18 A. You couldn't give it a weekly ratio because 19 sometimes he -- like I said Friday, he might go three weeks 20 without talking to you or speaking to you. Sometimes I seen 21 him -- he was very helpful when my father passed away; my 22 mother was ill. We went to see Grandma Montgomery together in 23 the nursing home till she died, so we were together more at 24 times because I was going through hard times myself with both 25 of my parents ill, and so we might see each other every day in 21 1 a week's time and then we might go a week without seeing -- I 2 can't give it a weekly ratio. It wouldn't exist. 3 Q. During those times, if I understand correctly, 4 he may have spent the night with you or at least in your 5 father's house on Blevins Gap Road? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. And I think you told us about four times; am I 8 right? 9 A. It would be -- you know, right before Standard 10 Gravure, but he would -- come spend the whole night, I 11 cannot -- I didn't count them. There was no reason to count. 12 Four? I honestly don't know under oath. Four, eight times. 13 But he would come to visit in the day a lot. He would come 14 and help me out with my dad. Him and Jimmy would come over 15 and visited. I never counted. There was no reason to count, 16 so I don't honestly know for sure. 17 Q. During those times, did he ever tell you how he 18 was getting along with Standard Gravure? 19 A. The last Joe basically quit talking to me about 20 any of it was at Derbytime, because I remember my father being 21 in the hospital and he had to have his leg amputated. So 22 either Joe just didn't want to discuss it or he didn't want to 23 upset me with things with him since I was going through a lot. 24 I don't know which way it was. 25 Q. So around the first weekend in May of 1989? 22 1 A. Derby. 2 Q. He just stopped discussing Standard Gravure with 3 you? 4 A. Basically. I mean, he -- he might tease about 5 being on disability. He might make comments, but nothing 6 major. It was like -- the thing that shocked me the most 7 was -- his exact words -- I come home from Elizabethtown with 8 my father in the hospital and we ate supper late that night. 9 And he come over and I tried to pry and ask how he was doing. 10 And he said, "Brenda, I'm just not talking to you about things 11 anymore because if I tell you things that I would tell you, 12 you would have me put back in the hospital." His quote was -- 13 he always called me Goody Two-shoes. He said, "Since you 14 think you're Miss Goody Two-shoes, if I told you things I was 15 going to tell you, you'd call the police on me." He said, 16 "I'm just not going to talk to you and I don't want you to ask 17 me questions anymore." And that was Derby week because my 18 father had his leg amputated and I took a week's vacation. My 19 mother was in the hospital and my dad. And I remember those 20 exact words because I got off the couch, and it made me mad. 21 I said, "Well, just go on home and I'm sorry I asked." So I 22 caused a severe argument. 23 Q. And was that before or around Derbytime, 1989? 24 A. I know because my father was in the hospital 25 Derby week, so I remember the exact week. 23 1 Q. Ms. Camp, on Friday, we discussed the water and 2 the phone at Nottoway Circle, and I thought I understood you 3 to say that you had the water and the phone cut off. Do I 4 recall correctly? 5 A. Yes, sir. I made that statement Friday. 6 Q. Let me read to you a section of your deposition 7 given on October 26, 1992, beginning at Page 198, Line 14: 8 "And on one occasion at least when he was living 9 at Nottoway that lasted about three weeks? 10 "Answer: I don't talk to him, neighbors don't 11 know if he's home. He's living there by himself. That's 12 after I move in with my father. Now, the oddest thing is 13 after I moved in with my father I would go check on him. He 14 cut off the water in that house. He cut off telephone 15 service. He would pee in a can in the bedroom. It would be 16 all over the carpet of the floor. And I remember leaving my 17 dad one night saying, 'Well, I haven't heard from him for over 18 two weeks and I'm going to check on him.' I pull up and my 19 dad says, 'Well, I don't want you to go over there.' I said, 20 'Well, I'm going. I'll be back.' Dad said, 'Well, call me at 21 a pay telephone.' Joe no longer had water service, he no 22 longer had telephone service, there's no food in the 23 refrigerator, and I'm checking on my personal belongings. I 24 want to make sure he's not tearing my stuff up or anything is 25 happening to my stuff." Did you give that testimony under 24 1 oath? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. Would you explain, if there is an explanation, 4 what actually happened with regard to the water and the 5 telephone service? 6 A. When I would go over to check on Joe, I asked 7 him to please call and get the telephone taken out of my name, 8 get the water service taken out of my name since I would never 9 be living there again. I asked him to do it when I said he -- 10 I asked him to call instead of me calling. I figured if I 11 called he wouldn't know when they -- because he would go weeks 12 without talking to me. And I figured if he would call he 13 would reconnect the service in his name and that he would know 14 the date when they were going to cut the water off and know 15 the date when they would cut his phone service off. So I 16 asked him to call the telephone company. You know, I left it 17 on for a long time. 18 Q. After you moved out? 19 A. I don't even remember how long under all that 20 going on but... 21 Q. Ms. Camp, when the water wasn't there and the 22 phone was disconnected, where would he go to shave or to have 23 a bowel movement or to take a bath? 24 A. I asked him -- sometimes I let him take -- my 25 dad would let him in when I'd be at work and he would take a 25 1 bath at my father's home because my dad was glad to see him. 2 And they would keep each other company, so Dad -- he would 3 come over to the house probably, I don't know, once a week, 4 once every week and a half. 5 One time I asked him -- one time he had a lot of 6 whiskers, a lot had grown out. He would go up over -- in 7 Iroquois Heights there's a McDonald's and a Taco Bell and 8 Pizza Hut and those things close to that house. I don't know. 9 Maybe Jimmy let him. I don't know. But there was times when, 10 I don't know, maybe he went a long time without taking a bath. 11 I don't really know where he did all that. 12 Q. Did he ever tell you where he'd go to have a 13 bowel movement? 14 A. I didn't ask. 15 Q. During that period of time, did you ever ask him 16 why he was living like that in that house? 17 A. I'm sure I did after nine years of being with 18 him. You know, you cried so much and you looked at it and you 19 couldn't change the person. They wouldn't let you put them in 20 the hospital anymore. I mean, I'm sure I did. We'd been 21 friends too long. I think his answer was, "I just don't feel 22 like taking a bath. I don't go anywhere anyway being on 23 disability," so I guess his answer was -- it would have to be 24 my -- I guess he was giving up. I don't know. I'd have to 25 put words in my mouth. I really don't know why he did it. 26 1 Q. Ms. Camp, you mentioned on Friday that there 2 would be occasions that his hands would move and you even 3 demonstrated that. On occasions like that, was he able to 4 write? 5 A. Not real well, but Joe never did write a lot. 6 He didn't write a lot when we first met because he didn't 7 spell real well. I've already made that statement. So I 8 don't think Joe ever did write a tremendous amount. 9 Q. But when he was in one of those periods when his 10 hands would be shaking, could he hold a pen and write 11 normally? 12 A. When we would see each other at those times he 13 wasn't writing. We'd go to dinner or we'd watch a movie or 14 just take a ride. So he wasn't in the position to write. So 15 I don't know if he could have or he didn't. I never watched 16 it. I don't know. 17 Q. On any occasions did he ever discuss with you 18 chemicals at Standard Gravure? 19 A. Like in my statement Friday, he felt that the -- 20 he brought up toluene. I don't really know what toluene is. 21 I don't know. I can't remember what he told me it is, 22 cleaning fluid or -- I don't know what it is. But that's the 23 thing he always mentioned. 24 Q. Did he ever collect or get any literature or 25 documents on chemicals and that sort of thing? 27 1 A. Yeah. I mean, I don't know if -- I don't 2 remember if I seen the articles, but I think he researched it 3 at the library, and I think he was interested in what OSHA had 4 to say about it. I mean, that's what he would comment to me. 5 Q. And did he tell you that he was making claims or 6 taking some kind of action or any kind of action with regard 7 to that problem? 8 A. He talked some about it, but I don't remember 9 what all he acted. I think he had me read a little bit of the 10 articles. I don't know. He did a lot of that in private with 11 human resources and all. I don't know. 12 Q. Now, Ms. Camp, if I understand correctly, after 13 approximately Derby of 1989 he stopped talking to you about 14 his concerns about Standard Gravure and his plans, as you've 15 just told us. From that point on until September 29 -- excuse 16 me -- September 14, 1989, did you continue to see him during 17 the summer and the early fall of that year? 18 A. Yes. Because he helped me when my father passed 19 away. He was afraid of me living by myself. I lived by 20 myself. 21 Q. And did he attend your father's funeral with 22 you? 23 A. Yes. He helped out with people coming and going 24 and he tried to help me through the time my father was laid 25 out and... 28 1 Q. Did -- do you recall his grandmother, Nancy 2 Montgomery, dying? 3 A. Yes. Very much so. 4 Q. And did you attend that funeral with him? 5 A. I couldn't afford to be off from work, so, you 6 know, I offered to go and he told me, no, and he went. You 7 know, he went. I don't know all the circumstances, but I went 8 to her so much in the nursing home that I felt like I had done 9 everything I could do for her. You know, I was very close to 10 her. You know, I felt like I had done everything I could do 11 for her then. 12 Q. Ms. Camp, given those dates of your father's 13 death and his grandmother's death, you mentioned on Friday 14 that you discovered a paper or some papers about Joe 15 Wesbecker's cremation; am I recalling that correctly? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. At the time that you found those papers, had the 18 cremation already been arranged by him? 19 A. You know, Joe and I talked about, you know, 20 burials just like any married couple or couple that lived 21 together. You know, you hope you do all that before you 22 become deceased. Let me think a minute. I believe he had 23 already drawn up his funeral things prior to that. I'm pretty 24 sure he had. 25 Q. And if I understand correctly, you wanted a 29 1 change made in his -- 2 A. Yeah. For his sons. Not so much for me; I was 3 his ex-wife. But I just can't -- I'm a mother. And, you 4 know, I had just buried my father. I can't imagine not having 5 somewhere to go to where a person's buried. That's beyond me. 6 Q. Did you encourage him to do that and did he 7 agree to do that? 8 A. Yes. I went with him to Owen's. 9 Q. And you went with him? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Do you have any recollection as to approximately 12 when that was, given the date of your father's funeral? 13 A. I can't remember if it was before my father died 14 or after. Owen's would have those records, but I asked him 15 and I went with him to make sure he did it. Because I said, 16 "Joe, someday when you pass away," I said, "your two boys 17 aren't even going to have nowhere to go." I said, "They're 18 not even going to have anywhere to go, if they want to go, 19 where you're buried." 20 Q. All right. Now, let me go back, if I may, to 21 another topic. If I understand correctly, during the years 22 that you knew him he was treated by different psychiatrists 23 from time to time; am I right? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. And did you ever go and talk to any of these 30 1 psychiatrists? 2 A. Doctor Hayes never did involve me. I made that 3 comment Friday, because we just lived together I didn't 4 matter. When I pleaded for help, told Doctor Hayes he was ill 5 when we first lived together, Doctor Hayes wouldn't even come 6 to the telephone. And I always had bitterness. I don't know 7 if that doctor is still alive, but I resented that. 8 Doctor Senler was my favorite. She was the most 9 helpful. She's a woman psychiatrist. I don't know if she's 10 still in practice, but I admire her and I thank her to this 11 day. 12 Doctor Coleman I respect. I helped Joe dial the 13 phone. Nobody would take him. 14 Q. Let me interrupt you there and ask you about the 15 first contact with Doctor Coleman. Would you tell us how that 16 came about? 17 A. Joe was without a doctor. Doctor Senler stopped 18 seeing him. His medicine was running out, so I would go to 19 Walgreen's in Dixie Manor. I don't know why Doctor Senler 20 stopped seeing Joe. I don't know if Joe quit going and lied 21 to me or Doctor Senler just wanted him to get a new doctor. I 22 still don't know to this day why. So I would go to Walgreen's 23 and ask them to please refill his medicine because he couldn't 24 get in touch with her. So the pharmacist refilled it one 25 time, said "Brenda, he has to have a doctor." 31 1 So I'd go over and get on the telephone with him 2 and call. We went down through the phone book constantly and 3 doctors would say I've got a sick man on my hands. Joe don't 4 have any psychiatrist, medicines running out and I'm, like, 5 "Well, he won't go to the hospital." So we get on the phone 6 and we wrote down about, I guess, 12 psychiatrists. We 7 proceeded to call. One said, "We're not accepting new 8 patients." 9 You dial the next one, "We're not taking any new 10 patients." 11 You dial the next one, "It will be two months 12 before we have an opening." 13 This went on for about I would estimate two 14 hours, till finally we called Doctor Coleman's office and he 15 said he would see Joe. I remember I drank a Coke afterwards, 16 the relief, I said okay. So I went with Joe. I drove him 17 there on Bardstown Road and that's the only time I ever met 18 Doctor Coleman. And they talked -- I went back and met him. 19 MR. SMITH: Could we have this in a question- 20 and-answer form, please, Your Honor? 21 JUDGE POTTER: Sustained. Mr. Stopher, why 22 don't you ask a question. 23 Q. Ms. Camp, on that very first occasion, the very 24 first time you went to meet Doctor Coleman -- 25 A. Yes, sir; I just said that. 32 1 Q. -- did you go into the session with Mr. 2 Wesbecker and give information about his history? 3 A. Half of it, as I best remember it. 4 Q. After that time, did you ever see Doctor Coleman 5 again? 6 A. No, sir. 7 Q. Were you ever asked to come with Joe Wesbecker 8 to Doctor Coleman? 9 A. No, sir. 10 Q. Were you ever asked to attend an appointment 11 with him by Joe Wesbecker? 12 A. No. Joe never asked me to go. Doctor Coleman 13 never phoned me. I don't remember if they did. I don't 14 remember it. 15 Q. All right. Now, Ms. Camp, let me direct your 16 attention to the afternoon and the evening of September 13, 17 1989, the afternoon and the evening before the shootings the 18 following morning. Did you see Joe Wesbecker on the 13th of 19 September? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. And would you tell us what time of day and where 22 you saw him? 23 A. I went to work that day. He called me and asked 24 could we go to dinner together. He come over to my father's 25 home and we went to a normal restaurant and ate dinner where 33 1 we went a lot to eat dinner. I would say this was 2 approximately -- I get home from work 5:30, 6:30, I would say 3 approximately quarter till seven is about when we went to the 4 restaurant. 5 Q. All right. Now, let me see if I can use my map 6 again and get straight as to the geography of this. On that 7 day, you worked at -- 8 A. The Dixie campus. 9 Q. And that would be approximately up in this area 10 at Roy's? 11 A. Opposite side of Trent. It's beside Holy Cross 12 High School. 13 Q. All right. And then he called you at work on 14 the 13th? 15 A. It was either at work or when I first got home. 16 I don't even remember. 17 Q. All right. And you went to your home on Blevins 18 Gap Road? 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. Okay. And do you know where he was when he 21 called you? 22 A. Hunh-uh. 23 Q. And he asked you to go to dinner? 24 A. Yeah. If we could see each other and eat 25 dinner, and I told him, "Of course." 34 1 Q. Did he then come to your home? 2 A. Yeah. I had to think. 3 Q. And what vehicle was he driving? 4 A. I don't -- the Monza. Well, that would have 5 been the only car he would have had to drive. 6 Q. He didn't have another car? 7 A. Right. Or he would have had to borrow the 8 Oldsmobile from Jimmy, so he would have been driving the 9 Monza. 10 Q. And was the Oldsmobile at your house at that 11 time? 12 A. I don't think so. No. Now, wait. See, I 13 honestly don't remember. I don't think so. 14 Q. All right. He comes to your house that early 15 evening in the red Monza? 16 A. Uh-huh. 17 Q. Had you been in that red Monza recently? 18 A. Hunh-uh. Because I drove my white Firebird. I 19 don't remember the last time I was in my red car. 20 Q. Did you have any chance that night, that you 21 recall, to look in the Chevrolet Monza? 22 A. I wouldn't have no reason to. I never went 23 behind people and checked on stuff. I wouldn't have went out 24 there. I wouldn't think so. If I was suspecting something 25 you would, but... 35 1 Q. He arrives at your home and then the two of you 2 go out to dinner; am I right? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. And who drives and what do you drive? 5 A. I do and we drove my -- I would have drove my 6 car, my '82 Firebird that I still drive. 7 Q. All right. And where do you go to dinner? 8 A. Jessie's Family Restaurant. 9 Q. All right. And where is it located? 10 A. It's located right down from Valley High School. 11 It's right on Dixie Highway. 12 Q. And then during dinner that evening, is it just 13 the two of you? 14 A. Just the two of us. 15 Q. Does he give you that day any information about 16 himself, that you recall? 17 A. He talked more when we got home from dinner and 18 before we went to dinner than he did at the restaurant. 19 Q. And did he give you any information about 20 himself that evening or that -- during the meal? 21 A. He talked more about himself the week before 22 that, as far as saying how he felt, and he didn't talk as much 23 about it. I mean... 24 Q. Well, let me go back to the week before. Did he 25 give you information about how he felt at that time a week 36 1 earlier? 2 A. Let me think a minute. Before -- I would say it 3 was about a week, week and a half before he said Doctor 4 Coleman had chose to put him on a new medicine. And it 5 concerned me at first because I simply said to him, "Are you 6 sure you want to try more medicines as many, as you've been 7 on;" that's what I said to him. And he said, "Yes, I'd like 8 to try it," but I now know after all this, he was already 9 taking new medicine and he didn't tell me. He said, "I'm 10 going to go ahead and try a new medicine." And then a few 11 days passed, probably -- I don't remember -- four or five 12 days, and he says, "I feel a lot better on the new medicine." 13 And I said, "Well, I'm happy for you, Joe," and that's about 14 all we said about it. 15 Q. Did he give you any more information than that, 16 that you recall? 17 A. I mean, he may have. It may be in my 18 deposition, but as I best remember it, you know, he said, "I 19 went to see Doctor Coleman a few days ago," and that's about 20 all he said. 21 Q. That evening on the night of the 13th, the night 22 before, did he tell you at dinner how he was feeling that 23 night? 24 A. He was just more nervous. He paced more. While 25 we were eating he got up two or three times and went to the 37 1 bathroom in the middle of the meal. He didn't finish all of 2 his meal. I didn't either because he just kept doing that. I 3 finally said, "I'll just get a go box." 4 Q. Was there anything different about that pacing 5 and that situation that night than you had seen on many other 6 occasions over the years? 7 A. Hunh-uh. 8 Q. Is that a yes or a no? 9 A. In between. Maybe a little bit more but not 10 that much. 11 Q. Any difference in the way he looked that night 12 or the way he talked to you that night? 13 A. No, because he had been in that shape before, 14 so... 15 Q. You mentioned on Friday that, before that, there 16 would be times that he just simply couldn't stay in a room? 17 A. Right. 18 MR. SMITH: Objection to leading, Your Honor. 19 JUDGE POTTER: Sustained. 20 Q. On other occasions before this, would he 21 sometimes have to leave a room or want to leave a room? 22 A. Yeah. But he did that a lot, so you didn't pay 23 any attention. 24 Q. On the occasion of this dinner the night before, 25 did he have movement of his hands and his feet? 38 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And were they moving like you demonstrated for 3 us on Friday? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Was there anything different about that movement 6 than you had seen before on other occasions, many other 7 occasions? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Ms. Camp, when he got in a condition like that, 10 could he drive? 11 A. When he was with me, he'd ask me to drive. When 12 we weren't together, I don't know what he did. I don't know 13 if he drove or he didn't or what he did. 14 Q. Did you ever see him try to drive when he was in 15 that kind of condition and his hands would be moving and his 16 feet would be jumping as you demonstrated on Friday? 17 A. I mean, trying to recollect and think back, I 18 would say maybe a few times and we would just change -- I 19 would say, "I'm going to drive." I mean, I'm sure I did, but 20 it's hard to remember now. 21 Q. All right. Now, did he give you any other 22 information at dinner that night about himself or make any 23 other statements that you remember? 24 A. No. Just said -- I went to bed early. 25 Q. Now, after you left the restaurant where did you 39 1 go? 2 A. Back home. I went back to my house. 3 Q. And what occurred then? 4 A. He sat in one chair, I sat on the couch. He 5 paced. He walked around. He went outside and walked around a 6 while. He said, "Can I spend the night?" I said, "Of 7 course." I said, "I'm going to bed." So I don't know where 8 he slept. I don't know if he slept in the guest bedroom, my 9 bedroom -- I slept in the basement that night. I don't know 10 where he slept in my father's home, now my home. I went to 11 bed and didn't see him till the next morning. 12 Q. Was it unusual for you and he to sleep in 13 different bedrooms? 14 A. We did it our whole relationship. 15 Q. The whole nine years? 16 A. (Nods head affirmatively). 17 Q. Is that a yes? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. The reason I keep asking you to speak is that 20 when we are making a record and when you nod your head -- 21 A. Yes, sir. I'm sorry. 22 Q. That's all right. I understand. That evening, 23 that night, did you see him at all in the middle of the night? 24 A. No, sir. 25 Q. What occurred the next morning? 40 1 A. My alarm clock went off like normal. I come 2 upstairs to prepare to go to work. He already had his clothes 3 on because he would take Jimmy to the University of 4 Louisville. I come down the hallway and -- I always sleep 15 5 minutes longer than my alarm clock, so I got in my normal bed 6 and laid down for 15 minutes because I slept in the basement. 7 He went in the kitchen. He come back to me. It's the last 8 time I seen him alive. He come back to me, and we always 9 said, "Have a nice day." We always said thanks to each other. 10 He already had his clothes on. I'm still in my nightie shirt. 11 So he leaned up against the wall in the bedroom 12 where I now still sleep. He looked at me and he said, "Thanks 13 for being a good friend." He said, "Thanks for always taking 14 care of me." He said, "I'll call you later at work." I said 15 okay. So I got up and went into the hall bathroom to finish 16 getting ready, and he turned around. That was odd. He 17 usually -- when he said good-bye he was gone. 18 He turned around in -- my hallway's a long 19 hallway. He stood there and stared at me. I said, "Joe, 20 what's the matter?" He said, "Nothing. I just come back to 21 tell you good-bye again." I said okay, I said bye, and kissed 22 him on the cheek and he was gone. 23 Q. Did he appear to you that morning any 24 differently than he had looked? 25 A. Other than that. That was odd for him to do. 41 1 Q. Ms. Camp, after Derby weekend when he told you 2 that he wasn't going to talk to you anymore about Standard 3 Gravure and about certain things, did he ever talk to you 4 about any plans with regard to Standard Gravure after that and 5 before September 14, 1989? 6 A. When he talked to the social workers and it 7 become a reality he was on disability, I'm just kind of the 8 type of person to accept things. I couldn't see any reason to 9 talk any more about it and I thought I'd try to cheer him up 10 and make him realize that being on disability would be a 11 different way of life. So, you know, I couldn't see where 12 there was a reason to talk about it when you're never going 13 back there. And it was a hard memory for him, so I thought if 14 I didn't talk about it, it would be better. 15 Q. Did he ever tell you what the plans were or the 16 things were that if you knew them you would tell the police or 17 have him institutionalized? Did he ever tell you what those 18 plans were after Derby of 1989? 19 A. No. He just said, "I'm just not talking to you 20 because you always" -- no, I think he had the fear I'd want 21 him back in the hospital. 22 MR. STOPHER: I believe that's all, your Honor. 23 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith. 24 25 42 1 EXAMINATION ___________ 2 3 BY_MR._SMITH: __ ___ ______ 4 Q. Ms. Camp, I have noted here in connection with 5 that last dinner that you and Mr. Wesbecker had at the 6 restaurant, that he appeared to you to be more nervous, that 7 he paced more and went to the bathroom on a couple of 8 occasions while you were there at the restaurant; is that 9 correct, Ms. Camp? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. And that he wasn't -- was he not able to finish 12 his meal, either? 13 A. He ate half of his meal. 14 Q. And you, I guess, maybe and he got a to-go box 15 for the leftover food? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. I got the impression from listening to you that 18 this was more nervous than he had been in the past. 19 A. Well, more nervous than the current past, but he 20 had been like that before. 21 Q. But it had been some time since you had seen him 22 in this state; would that be accurate, Ms. Camp? 23 A. Probably the last time I had seen him like that 24 was three or four months before that occurrence. 25 Q. All right. And was it not quite as severe even 43 1 on that occasion? 2 A. Joe tried to hide it, you know. Sometimes he'd 3 get like that and he'd try to hide it because he would have 4 the jitters or whatever. 5 Q. I'll try to be brief, Ms. Camp, but I have a few 6 questions I think I need to ask you. When you and Joe first 7 met and you started dating him back around Thanksgiving 1980, 8 as I understand it, when you first met at that -- first I 9 think you-all had breakfast after the Parents Without Partners 10 meeting; is that right? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. And that you and he sat and talked at the 13 breakfast and that he told you about his children and you told 14 him about your children? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. And you were proud of yours and he was proud of 17 his at that time? 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. And Joe seemed like the type of fellow that even 20 though he was divorced was still interested in his family? 21 A. He stayed like that his whole life. 22 Q. Always his interest in his sons continued; is 23 that right? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. As I understand it, he continued to pay his 44 1 child support? 2 A. Yes, sir. And extra, plus. 3 Q. And gave them gifts and items of necessity over 4 and above the child support? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. I know that there were apparently a couple of 7 occasions when he and Ms. Sue Chesser had problems, but would 8 it be accurate to state that, generally speaking, Joe and Ms. 9 Chesser got along pretty well? 10 A. Yes, sir. I would say so. 11 Q. And I think you said either in your testimony or 12 in your deposition that you almost felt like Sue was lucky in 13 that Joe was treating her well; was that accurate? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. Did Joe tell you that he had enjoyed growing up 16 with his grandmother in his childhood? 17 A. His greatest love was his grandmother, so, yes. 18 I mean, I would say yes, he enjoyed growing up with her. 19 Q. I have a note here that you said that Joe was 20 kind from the beginning. 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. And I take it by what you've said here, Ms. 23 Camp, that even that last morning of September 14th, he was 24 kind to you? 25 A. Yes, sir. 45 1 Q. Joe enjoyed his work when he worked at Standard 2 Gravure when you first met him? 3 A. It's like the statement I made Friday, Joe 4 always had a fear of not being able to work. 5 Q. But when he -- when you met him in the '80 -- 6 1980, it was your impression that he enjoyed his work? 7 A. Oh, most definitely. 8 Q. Now, when you and Joe met, you were going 9 through a traumatic divorce from Doctor Beasley; is that 10 correct? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. And Joe was supportive of you from the outset? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. He sympathized with you and your problems? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. He knew you were having a hard time financially 17 at that time? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. In fact, your house had been foreclosed on as a 20 result of the divorce; is that correct? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. And Joe, frankly, offered to let you move into 23 his house there on Mount Holyoke? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. And he, in fact, told you that if you wanted to 46 1 move into his house and if you felt like staying there in his 2 house with him in front of your children that he would move to 3 an apartment, in fact? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. But you and he decided that you would -- that he 6 would remain there; is that correct? 7 A. Yes, sir. We decided to get married. 8 Q. But you and he discussed that -- he offered to 9 let you have the use of the house on Mount Holyoke and even 10 move to an apartment and you were uncomfortable with that? 11 A. Yes, sir. Well, my ex-husband was suing me for 12 custody of my children because I lived with a man. 13 Q. And Joe was willing to move out into an 14 apartment to help you in that regard; correct? 15 A. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. 16 Q. It sounds to me like that there were a lot of 17 positive things about Joe, there was a lot of good things 18 about Joe Wesbecker. 19 A. I mean, I'm just one person that knew him. Most 20 people that knew him would say that. 21 Q. You and others that you know have said good 22 things about Joe Wesbecker? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. He gave you, as I understand it, $1,000 there 25 shortly after you were married or before you were married to 47 1 pay to an attorney to help you with your custody battle over 2 your children; is that right? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. Did he ever ask you to pay him back that 5 thousand dollars? 6 A. I paid him back through the years but he 7 wouldn't -- I mean, we were always friends. I wouldn't have 8 cheated him out of the money. 9 Q. And he wouldn't pester you for the money, 10 either, would he? 11 A. No. No. 12 Q. He wanted to help you when he gave you the 13 $1,000? 14 A. (Nods head affirmatively). 15 Q. When you and the kids, your two children, 16 Melissa and Chris -- 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. -- when they moved in, Joe was initially 19 supportive of the two children, wasn't he? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. And did things with them and for them, 22 initially? 23 A. Yeah. We couldn't have been married if it 24 wasn't that way. 25 Q. You felt like when you got married that Joe 48 1 would be a reasonable stepfather to your children or you 2 wouldn't have married him; correct? 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. And do I understand it that Joe was especially 5 fond of Chris, your son? 6 A. In the last four years he lived. In the 7 beginning, he was more partial to my daughter; later, he was 8 able -- he did not speak -- I've already said this Friday -- 9 to my daughter the last five years he lived, so the only one 10 of my children he would remain speaking to was my son. 11 Q. And he continued to be kind to your son? 12 A. He continued to speak, yeah, speak to my son 13 till he died. 14 Q. It was my understanding that Chris, at least 15 when he was younger, had a problem with hyperactivity and Joe 16 was supportive of you and him in that? 17 A. Yes. And anyone that's ever raised a 18 hyperactive child knows. 19 Q. When you and Joe married in Indiana, the reason 20 that Joe's family wasn't there was because this was a private 21 wedding; is that right? 22 A. Yes, sir. We told only about, I don't remember, 23 about eight people that we were getting married. 24 Q. Do I understand it that you said that you-all 25 didn't really take traditional vows in this marriage? 49 1 A. I've not said normal traditional vows since the 2 end of my first marriage. I cannot say -- 3 Q. All right. And how, Ms. Camp, were the vows 4 different that you took with Joe Wesbecker versus those vows 5 you took with Doctor Beasley? 6 A. Doctor Beasley and I married under the Roman 7 Catholic faith, had two children. In respect to that marriage 8 and being a Roman Catholic, I can't say traditional wedding 9 vows. That's more me than anyone else. Even at other 10 people's weddings, sometimes I have a hard time sitting 11 through traditional vows. In sickness and health, for richer 12 for poorer, till death do you part, how could I say? I didn't 13 say them in my third marriage; we wrote our wedding vows. 14 Q. After you were married, as I understand it, 15 there was a prenuptial agreement? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. And that prenuptial agreement was mutual on each 18 of your parts; is that correct? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. You wanted the prenuptial agreement as much as 21 Joe did? 22 A. Yes. Probably more so. 23 Q. And Joe agreed to this? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. After you were married you-all never mixed your 50 1 money; correct? 2 A. Correct. 3 Q. Except, as I understand it, Joe was generous 4 with you in giving you gifts for Christmas, Valentine's Day 5 and things of that nature? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. And that if there were occasions when you needed 8 grocery money or something like that until the next paycheck, 9 Joe would certainly chip in on those occasions? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. And were there occasions when you and he went 12 shopping and bought household goods together? 13 A. I didn't need household goods because I brought 14 all of mine out of my first marriage. 15 Q. I mean household goods, grocery items. 16 A. Most of the time I went to the grocery. Like 17 most women, I did the grocery shopping. 18 Q. All right. During your marriage, Joe had an 19 obligation to pay child support, did he not? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. And did he continue to pay that child support? 22 A. He always paid it. 23 Q. And during your marriage there were problems 24 with Joe and Doctor Beasley but, one of Joe's main, if not 25 exclusive, criticisms of Doctor Beasley was the way he had 51 1 treated you and his children, that is, yours and Doctor 2 Beasley's children, was it not? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. Joe's irritation with Doctor Beasley stemmed 5 from the fact that he felt fondness and kindness, love toward 6 you, and fondness and kindness toward your children? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. In connection with Jimmy and Kevin, Ms. Camp, 9 would it be correct to say that Joe's problem with Kevin was 10 that Kevin had dropped out of school and that he wouldn't have 11 this surgery that Joe felt like would help his disability? 12 A. Are you -- what are you asking me; is that why 13 he no longer had communication with his son? 14 Q. That was the reason that they quit communicating 15 and that they had periods where they wouldn't speak to each 16 other? 17 A. Along with Joe did not like Kevin not watching 18 Jimmy when he was smaller. 19 Q. Those -- did Joe ever express to you that Joe 20 didn't like Kevin's girlfriend, the woman he later married? 21 A. Yes, sir. He did not have a real good 22 relationship with Kevin's wife. 23 Q. Did you talk with Kevin about this estrangement 24 between them? 25 A. I can't remember when Kevin got married. I 52 1 don't remember which year. I was only married to Joe for 2 three years, and sometimes in a blended or extended family, 3 you're better to say nothing, I've learned that. So a lot of 4 times with me not being their mother, it wouldn't have 5 mattered what I said. I've learned that when you get out of 6 your nuclear family when you learn -- you go through a divorce 7 sometimes you learn as a stepparent or an ex to just be quiet. 8 I've learned that. 9 Q. Well, Kevin has testified that Kevin himself 10 was -- 11 MR. STOPHER: I object to the characterization 12 of some other witness's testimony, Your Honor. 13 JUDGE POTTER: Overruled. 14 Q. Has testified that -- here in this trial -- that 15 he was stubborn, also; that is, Kevin was stubborn, and that 16 part of this estrangement was a result of both Kevin and Joe 17 being stubborn. My question is: Did you see any stubbornness 18 on Kevin's part? 19 A. I made the statement Friday that Kevin was my 20 favorite child of Joe's. I don't think Kevin Wesbecker would 21 have ever been that way, ever, if his -- I think the parent 22 should be the one in charge if you have children, meaning, you 23 set the example for your children. So I don't think Kevin 24 would have ever -- I never seen a mean bone in his body. 25 Q. I understand that. My point simply was Kevin 53 1 acknowledged that there were some things about their 2 disintegration of their relationship that he felt like he was 3 partly to blame; you never talked to him about that? 4 A. I don't blame Kevin. Like I said, I was in the 5 extended family. I didn't matter. 6 Q. All right. Now, did you know that in May or 7 June 1989, Kevin and Joe started seeing each other again? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. And that they met at a restaurant and maybe met 10 Father's Day? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. I assume you were happy to see that? 13 A. Yes. Most definitely. 14 Q. Did Joe seem to be relieved or happy about that 15 to some extent, Ms. Camp? 16 A. He was happy and then he just didn't care, 17 either. So many years had went by that he was in between with 18 it. I think he did it more for Kevin than he did it for 19 himself. 20 Q. Kevin has testified that they had planned to get 21 closer. 22 A. I would hope so. It shouldn't have happened. 23 Q. I assume that's something that you would have 24 supported? 25 A. Most definitely. 54 1 Q. In connection with Jimmy's problems, would it be 2 accurate to say, Ms. Camp, that Joe did everything that a 3 father could do to help Jimmy with his problem with exposure? 4 A. If you give a thousand percentage, I would say 5 so. Yes, sir. Tremendous amount. 6 Q. Took him to hospitals? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. Paid for psychiatrists? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Worried about him? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Counseled with him? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Went to counseling with him? 15 A. We all did. 16 Q. Went to visit him in jail? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Got calls from Sue concerning problems when 19 Jimmy would be picked up and taken to jail? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. Actually, Joe brought Jimmy to live with you-all 22 for a while, did he not? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. Before you were divorced? 25 A. Yes, sir. 55 1 Q. And, frankly, Joe's concern about Jimmy and 2 Jimmy's problem was one of the problems that you and Joe had 3 in your marriage? 4 A. Yes, sir. Because I had a small son at the 5 time. 6 Q. And a daughter, also? 7 A. And a what? 8 Q. And a daughter. You had a son and a daughter? 9 A. But I went in therapy to find out which one was 10 at greatest risk regarding Jimmy. And Doctor Epstein told me 11 it would be my male son; male offspring was at greater risk. 12 Q. Did you and Joe talk about whether or not it 13 would be advisable to bring Jimmy into the household? 14 A. Joe had been good to my children to where in the 15 extended family I didn't feel I had a right to tell him if my 16 children were welcome his children weren't welcome. So I 17 agreed to let him bring his son and live with us. 18 Q. But that caused problems between the two of you? 19 A. Anything like that would cause any family 20 problems. 21 Q. The fact is, though, Joe was willing to even 22 risk that to help Jimmy? 23 A. But if anyone understands the extended family, 24 these are my kids and those are yours to a degree. My dad 25 always said blood is thicker than water, so blood always goes 56 1 back home, or it should. 2 Q. When you divorced in November of 1984, I believe 3 you said it was because you saw that things were deteriorating 4 and that you felt like it would be better to end the divorce 5 so you and Joe could remain friends? 6 A. Yes, sir. I did it for lots of reasons. 7 Q. You weren't going to let the same thing happen 8 between you and Joe as happened between you and Doctor 9 Beasley? 10 A. Correct. 11 Q. And it didn't? 12 A. It didn't. 13 Q. Joe agreed to the divorce? 14 A. We went together that day. Yeah. I mean, we 15 went together as we got it. 16 Q. The divorce went smoothly? 17 A. Of course. 18 Q. He didn't fight you over the divorce, -- 19 A. Hunh-uh. 20 Q. -- did he? 21 A. No. I mean, we used his attorney. 22 Q. He didn't make unreasonable demands for 23 property? 24 A. We never mixed property, so there was nothing to 25 fight over. 57 1 Q. You had that straightened out with your 2 prenuptial agreement anyway? 3 A. We had no children and no property mixed, so 4 there was nothing to fight over. 5 Q. In connection with the problems with Doctor 6 Beasley, I think as you said earlier, the main problem between 7 Joe and Doctor Beasley was that Joe didn't like the way Doctor 8 Beasley treated you and your children; is that right? 9 A. Yeah. I guess you could sum it up like that. 10 Q. In fact, hadn't Doctor Beasley expressed that he 11 felt like he was better than Joe because Joe was a blue-collar 12 worker and because Joe lived in the south end? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. Did Joe know about those feelings that Doctor 15 Beasley had expressed about him? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. How did he know that? 18 A. I mean, I can only talk hearsay. When Joe and I 19 first met, Joe felt that my ex-husband put a private 20 investigator on him to follow him. I'm only -- this is 21 secondhand comments I have heard. When Joe and I first 22 married, I was told by my family he had put death threats on 23 Joe and I. 24 Q. Doctor Beasley had put out death threats on you 25 and Joe? 58 1 A. On us. 2 Q. My question is, though, how did Joe know that 3 Doctor Beasley was saying these things about him being a 4 blue-collar worker and about him living in the south end? 5 A. Because people come up and told Joe. 6 Q. All right. Actually, though, Joe and Doctor 7 Beasley only talked about four times during the entire 8 nine-year relationship? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. And on those four occasions Joe never threatened 11 Doctor Beasley, did he? 12 A. No, sir. 13 Q. And Joe never, ever physically went to Doctor 14 Beasley's office and waited for him with a gun to blow his 15 brains out, as far as you know, did he, Ms. Camp? 16 A. No. He just verbally would say that to me. 17 Q. And that was on one occasion; is that right? 18 A. He threatened to kill him two times. 19 Q. Two times. But he never followed through on 20 those threats? 21 A. No. He's still living. 22 Q. Did Joe and Doctor Beasley even have cross words 23 on those four occasions that they talked? 24 A. My ex-husband never acknowledged him, never 25 thanked him, never thanked him for everything he did. My 59 1 ex-husband does not -- never did want to even act like he 2 existed, ever. 3 Q. But Joe continued to do nice things for you and 4 your children? 5 A. He did all the way till he died that morning and 6 until he did... 7 Q. These comments that you mentioned Friday at the 8 stop sign about Joe had some fixation on stoplights or stop 9 signs, and you said he would make threats about people at stop 10 signs; is that right? 11 A. I mean, I can only talk from what happened to 12 me. 13 Q. And that's all I'm asking you about is those 14 occasions where you and he would be together and he would make 15 some type of threat or disparaging remark. 16 A. I wasn't always with him. The time he 17 threatened to kill my daughter, I testified Friday, was at the 18 stoplight on Bardstown Road. 19 Q. All right. But I thought you said that there 20 were other occasions when Joe would threaten just strangers at 21 stoplights. 22 A. No. I don't think I said he would threaten 23 strangers. 24 Q. Maybe I misunderstood you. 25 A. No. The incident of my daughter, we were at a 60 1 stoplight. The incident with my ex-husband, he said it would 2 be very easy to just stop him, roll down his window and blow 3 his brains out; we were at a stoplight when he said that. And 4 one time when he threatened me -- maybe it's because the car 5 stopped and it's a convenient time to get out. I don't know 6 why he would say it at stoplights. 7 Q. Maybe I misunderstood you, Ms. Camp. I thought 8 you said Friday that he had issued other threats against other 9 individuals while he was at stop signs; you may not. 10 A. I apologize. He only threatened me, my daughter 11 and my ex-husband as far as a death threat that I'm ever aware 12 of. I don't know about anybody else. 13 Q. All right. 14 A. Okay. 15 Q. Sometimes I say things about drivers of other 16 automobiles that my wife fusses with me about, but you didn't 17 mean those? 18 A. I don't think I said it Friday, but I don't 19 always... 20 Q. All right. Am I correct that there was only one 21 occasion where you heard Joe talk about any aggressive comment 22 against Standard Gravure and that was the occasion where he 23 talked about taking dynamite to the plant maybe in 1984? 24 A. Joe mentioned dynamite in the end. It was like 25 I said Friday, it was either '87 or '88. I mean, it's hard to 61 1 remember all these dates. It was like -- I would guess a year 2 and a half or two years prior to September the 14th. 3 Q. All right. I thought this occasion where there 4 was statements about dynamite was when you and he were still 5 married; am I incorrect? 6 A. No. He was happy at work and we were happily 7 married the first three or four years we were together till we 8 divorced. We were together four years before we divorced; one 9 of living together and three years of marriage. 10 Q. And there was only that one occasion where he 11 spoke about violence at Standard Gravure? 12 A. Yeah. I mean, other than I testified Friday, he 13 would come home extremely upset with men he would work with 14 and he would be upset with the foremans. 15 Q. But as far as doing anything against Standard 16 Gravure or any individual there, we only had one occasion 17 where that was a possibility and that was the dynamite? 18 A. That I'm aware of, you know. 19 MR. SMITH: All right. Do you want me to 20 complete, Your Honor? 21 JUDGE POTTER: No. Go ahead and finish up, Mr. 22 Smith. We had a little late start today. 23 Q. In connection with the house on Nottoway Circle, 24 as I understand it, you moved back in in 1985? 25 A. Yes, sir. 62 1 Q. And you continued to live there continuously 2 until November 1988? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. During that period of time, you asked Joe to 5 sell that house and give you a -- did you say cash settlement? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. What was the cash settlement going to be for? 8 A. For everything I had done with paying phone 9 bills. And if anyone lives with someone, you know, it takes 10 two to run a household. So I wanted a cash settlement and us 11 separate and never live together again. 12 Q. How had you-all been running the household after 13 you started living together again? 14 A. He owned the home and I paid everything else, 15 most of the time the phone bill, most of the time the water 16 bill, the garbage bill, the food, cut the grass. I did all of 17 that. 18 Q. He provided the house so you didn't have rent to 19 pay? 20 A. Right. I didn't have rent to pay, so I had to 21 pay all the other stuff, just like at Mount Holyoke. 22 Q. Did you agree to do this? Was this something 23 you were willing to do when you did it? 24 A. Yes, sir. I felt that was fair. 25 Q. This wasn't something that Joe insisted? 63 1 A. No. I always pay my way. 2 Q. And what you wanted was when you decided to move 3 out, you wanted to be repaid for that period of time that you 4 had paid bills there? 5 A. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. 6 Q. And what Joe did was, in fact, not sell the 7 house which was worth, what, $80,000? 8 A. Fair value in here was $58,000. 9 Q. Fifty-eight. Instead of selling the house and 10 giving you $15,000, what he actually did was transferred the 11 entire house to you? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. And was that acceptable with you? 14 A. I argued with him at first. My attorney told 15 him he had made an unfair decision, that technically I owned 16 that home. And his attorney asked him to wait awhile before 17 he made a decision like that because he said, "I want you to 18 realize what you're doing, that technically now she owns this 19 home and that any moment any day she could put you out of 20 here." 21 Q. He wasn't worried about that and you weren't 22 worried about that, were you? 23 A. I would have never done that. Yes. I never 24 knew I was moving back to live with my father, so... 25 Q. I understand that, but the lawyer said to Joe, 64 1 "Joe, you don't have to give her the entire house"? 2 A. That's correct. No one would have to. 3 Q. "Think about that." But he gave it to you 4 anyway? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. When did the deed -- I think we've got it in 7 evidence -- approximately when was that? 8 A. I don't know. I'd have to look it up. I can't 9 remember the exact date. Do you want me to take time to look 10 it up? I guess it's still here from Friday. 11 Q. What part of '88 was that? 12 A. I don't remember. 13 Q. Was it before you moved out in November of '88? 14 A. It would have had to have been. Hang on. I'm 15 pretty sure because he brought it home and showed me at that 16 house. 17 Q. September 27th, 1988, does that sound right? 18 A. Have you got it? 19 Q. I've got some help here. 20 A. Okay. When was it? 21 Q. September 27th, '88. 22 A. Okay. So September, October, November, it would 23 have been two months before I moved out. 24 Q. And was Joe wanting -- when you moved out in 25 November of 1988, was he wanting you to stay or did he 65 1 understand that you needed to go help with your father? 2 A. It caused arguments. He said he was leaving me 3 for good if I did not come back home. I told him I had made 4 my decision. He said, "Well, if your dad gets well and 5 remarries, then you're not moving back in." I said, "I don't 6 intend" -- you know, I said it would be better that we just 7 date and not live together anymore, so I didn't intend -- I 8 mean, that's sometimes why we did not sleep in the same 9 bedroom. He was nice, but he didn't like me living with my 10 father or taking care of an aging parent. He thought he -- 11 partially -- should go in a nursing home, and I told Joe, 12 "He's not going in a nursing home." 13 Q. But after you moved out, as I understand it, 14 from November of 1988 until your father passed away in July of 15 1989, Joe continued to come out on a regular basis to Blevins 16 Gap? 17 A. He'd come to help me out and check on me. 18 Q. He would help you with your invalid father? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. Apparently he was friendly with your invalid 21 father? 22 A. My dad and him liked each other. 23 Q. Your father had needs for personal assistance to 24 take care of himself? 25 A. We had a lady help and I would help and my 66 1 daughter would help and her boyfriend would help, all of us. 2 Q. And Joe would help? 3 A. Joe would help out. 4 Q. I'm still a little confused about this period of 5 time when the house was messy when Joe -- on Nottoway Circle 6 when Joe was there. Was this after your father had passed 7 away that you found the house in this shape? 8 A. I mean, everybody keeps talking about messy. 9 Most of the time I went over there at night. On even the 10 morning of September the 14th, the house, unless something 11 major happened to it -- I was there three nights before 12 Standard Gravure of September the 14th. That was the last 13 time I was in the house before that morning. I went three 14 nights before, I'm pretty sure it was three nights before. 15 The living room was not a mess, the kitchen. I don't know 16 where everybody keeps saying it's in a horrible mess. 17 Q. I don't, either. That's why I was asking. 18 A. Granted, I'm not going to houseclean there every 19 week and there was no running water, but you didn't -- I 20 wouldn't -- I don't -- granted, it might have been dusty and 21 Joe kept the drapes pulled, but I imagine that house was a lot 22 cleaner than most people's houses are weekly. You know, I 23 mean, I don't know because I went in when it was dark and 24 there was no lights on, there was no LG&E, but I didn't trip 25 over things. My visualization of messy is roaches and dishes 67 1 you haven't done for a week, and I've never lived in those 2 kind of environment, so I don't know. 3 Q. What about these occasions when there would be 4 urine in a can and things of that nature, did you ever 5 actually see that? 6 A. Anybody that's raised children know they throw 7 up and get diarrhea and stuff, too. Yeah. I'd walk in and 8 there was a can there where he'd urinate. 9 Q. When was that? 10 A. I went there three nights before Standard 11 Gravure to check on him, so it was three nights prior. But 12 I'm in the dark because there's no LG&E and there's no water. 13 But horrible -- I mean, I don't know what, quote, I mean, I 14 cleaned the house when it went up for sale two weeks later. I 15 spent maybe four or five hours cleaning so I don't... 16 Q. And didn't you remain at that house that three 17 nights before Standard Gravure? 18 A. No. I went and visited for about two hours and 19 went home. Joe made me go home. He didn't want me around 20 him. Either somebody's testified something that's not 21 correct, but I stayed about two hours and went home. 22 Q. Did you-all have intercourse there during that 23 two-hour period of time? 24 A. That's the last -- now, let me think. I don't 25 remember the last time. It was either five days before 68 1 Standard Gravure or three days. I don't remember the exact -- 2 it was either five days before Standard Gravure or three days, 3 but I went I think twice before that morning. 4 Q. You indicated in Volume Two of your deposition 5 on Page 492, that you last had intercourse with Mr. Wesbecker 6 in the house on Nottoway three nights prior to his death. 7 Would that be accurate? 8 A. Okay. Then it was three days. Yeah. It's hard 9 to remember. 10 Q. Did it smell bad at that time, the house? 11 A. Like I said, if it had been -- that house had 12 three bedrooms in it, so, no, other than having a can with 13 urine in it. I mean, that doesn't smell pleasant, but other 14 than that, and the bed sheets probably hadn't been changed for 15 I don't know how long because I wasn't living there. 16 Q. We have introduced into evidence Mr. Wesbecker's 17 wills and you are a beneficiary of each of those wills to some 18 extent, are you not? 19 A. The last one I've never seen nor read nor have I 20 even read it here. The first one I'm aware of; the second I 21 am not. I would have to take time to read it right now. 22 Q. Were you aware that you were a beneficiary in 23 both of those wills? 24 A. I was in the first one. I didn't ever know the 25 second one was drawn up that much. I didn't pay any 69 1 attention. We weren't married, so... 2 Q. This prearrangement of Mr. Wesbecker's funeral, 3 was that done as part of financial planning on each of your 4 parts? 5 A. When Sue and Joe were still married, they had 6 crypts in Louisville Memorial Gardens. Joe give those to me 7 long before all this happened. I don't remember the exact 8 date -- I have it at home -- because I want to be buried where 9 my parents are buried. So he give them to me as a gift. So I 10 always worried more about prearranged because I wanted to make 11 sure I would be buried where my parents are buried. So I 12 don't, you know, I'll do prearranged, so I don't totally 13 understand the question. 14 Q. Well, some people buy their funeral plots and 15 arrange for their funeral themselves in advance so that they 16 can nail down the costs of those services. 17 A. Joe already had owned Louisville Memorial and 18 Sue Wesbecker, now Chesser, had signed those over to him. 19 Q. So this was something that he had had for years? 20 A. But he had already given them to me as a gift, 21 so he no longer owned the two crypts in Louisville Memorial, 22 I owned them. 23 Q. My question is, did you and Joe discuss the fact 24 that these prearrangements that you found where he was going 25 to have his body entirely cremated with no remains -- 70 1 A. I didn't go with him on that. 2 Q. But did you understand that that was part of 3 financial planning on Joe's part? 4 A. I wasn't worried about it. We didn't mix money 5 and I didn't worry about that. 6 Q. All right. Your father died on July the 14th, 7 1989, and Joe went to your father's funeral with you? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. And then did you and he go on a vacation 10 together? 11 A. Right after my father died? 12 Q. Well, in July of 1989. 13 A. No. We went the weekend of the 4th of July and 14 my daughter and her boyfriend watched my father. I just did 15 get home. We went -- what's the holiday, 4th of July we went 16 to Gatlinburg, and my daughter and her boyfriend watched my 17 father so I could get away for a few days. 18 Q. So on July 4th, 1989, you and Joe Wesbecker went 19 on a vacation to Gatlinburg, Tennessee? 20 A. For three days. 21 Q. And everything was fine on that trip? 22 A. When you say fine, I was exhausted. I asked him 23 to do it for me because I don't like to travel by myself. My 24 father pleaded with me to go. Anybody that's ever took care 25 of an aging parent 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, it's 71 1 wonderful and you're always glad you did it, but it's the same 2 as taking care of a -- somebody that needs you that you love a 3 lot. So that was my request that he go, and he did it for me. 4 Q. Joe did that for you? 5 A. I didn't want to be on the road by myself and I 6 needed to get away. 7 Q. And he accommodated you to do that? 8 A. (Nods head affirmatively). 9 Q. Did he try to be supportive of you and cheer you 10 up during that period of time? 11 A. It was a quieter time. There was no cheering 12 up. My father was real ill. He was real ill. My mother was 13 real ill. I don't think you can call cheer it up. 14 Q. Well, maybe not cheering up. I mean, trying to 15 be supportive. 16 A. It's called getting away to keep your sanity and 17 just getting away for a few days. 18 Q. As I understand it, Joe Wesbecker never hit you; 19 is that right? 20 A. Correct. 21 Q. Never committed any act of violence against you? 22 A. No, sir. 23 Q. Never committed any act of violence against 24 Michelle? 25 A. Who's Michelle? 72 1 Q. Your daughter. 2 A. My daughter's name is Melissa Marie. 3 Q. I'm sorry. Melissa. 4 A. No. He never hit anyone, no. 5 Q. You wouldn't have described Joe at any time as a 6 violent person, would you? 7 A. I don't know if you can say verbal abuse is as 8 bad as physical abuse. They still study that in society. So 9 if you say physical abuse, no, not till the morning of 10 September the 14th. 11 Q. Obviously. Now -- 12 MR. STOPHER: Can she finish her answer, Your 13 Honor? 14 JUDGE POTTER: Have you finished your answer, 15 ma'am? 16 THE WITNESS: Yes. 17 Q. I didn't mean to cut you off, Ms. Camp. I was 18 looking down. 19 A. Okay. 20 Q. You mentioned Social Security payments in 21 connection with Joe. He was on Social Security? 22 A. He had qualified for disability. 23 Q. And was he getting Social Security payments, as 24 far as you knew, in addition to his disability payments? 25 A. I don't know if he got disability. The social 73 1 worker -- I had to go through that with him with talking with 2 him -- the lady in charge of him at Social Security and he had 3 just started receiving disability through Social Security, but 4 I don't know beyond that what he got. 5 Q. Do you mean he started receiving that in the 6 summer of '89? 7 A. I don't know his exact check. I don't know when 8 he got his first one. 9 Q. I understand that. But you were aware that he 10 was getting checks from the Social Security Administration? 11 A. I went through all that. I had to talk to 12 numerous people at the board. I had to explain his behavior. 13 I went through all that prior to him ever getting it. 14 Q. Joe always took his medications as he was 15 instructed, did he not? 16 A. Most definitely. 17 Q. Thank you, Ms. Camp. 18 A. You're welcome. 19 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher? 20 MR. STOPHER: I just have a couple questions, 21 Your Honor. 22 JUDGE POTTER: Very short. 23 MR. STOPHER: Absolutely. 24 25 74 1 FURTHER_EXAMINATION _______ ___________ 2 3 BY_MR._STOPHER: __ ___ ________ 4 Q. Ms. Camp, just a couple things to hopefully keep 5 this very short. In the house at 7300 Nottoway, there was 6 furniture? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. Would you tell us whose furniture that was? 9 A. Everything in the house other than one bedroom 10 suite and one TV set was mine from my previous marriage. 11 Q. Everything else, the kitchen, the dining room, 12 the living room, the other bedroom furniture, lamps, rugs, 13 everything was yours? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. Ms. Camp, did you ever know Joe Wesbecker to 16 ever subscribe to Time Magazine and particularly in the period 17 of 1988 or 1989? 18 A. No, sir. 19 Q. Thank you. That's all I have. 20 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much, ma'am. You 21 may step down; you're excused. 22 Ladies and gentlemen, we're going to take the 23 morning recess. As I've mentioned to you-all before, do not 24 talk about this case with anyone; do not discuss it with each 25 other, and do not form or express opinions about it. We'll 75 1 take a 15-minute recess. 2 (RECESS; BENCH DISCUSSION) 3 MR. SMITH: There appears to be a plain-clothes, 4 off-duty police guard from Mr. Stopher's office and, to my 5 understanding, other witnesses are appearing with police 6 guards. Is there some security problem that we don't know 7 about that we need to be aware of? We're a little concerned 8 that these witnesses are all appearing with police guards in 9 front of the jury. 10 MR. STOPHER: It shouldn't be in front of the 11 jury. 12 JUDGE POTTER: I hadn't noticed anything but the 13 police person in uniform that they're stopping outside the 14 courtroom. 15 MR. SMITH: No. They're coming inside. 16 MR. STOPHER: It was during the breaks. 17 MR. SMITH: If there's some additional security 18 problems, I think we all need to be made aware of them. 19 JUDGE POTTER: Is there anything we need to be 20 made aware of, Mr. Stopher? 21 MR. STOPHER: No, sir, other than what I saw the 22 other day in the courtroom about Doctor Coleman's effects. 23 There's an awful lot of proximity. There's no witness room 24 where I can put these people, so I'm doing the best I can. 25 Some of these people have expressed -- well, they're former 76 1 employees who worked with some of these people that are 2 sitting behind the rail, and I'm sure they feel they would 3 just as soon not have to discuss anything with them privately. 4 MR. SMITH: I just want the record to be clear, 5 there have been no plaintiffs that have expressed any threats, 6 made any type of harassments toward any witness in this case 7 and, you know, it's just not true that the plaintiffs -- 8 MR. STOPHER: I didn't make that accusation. 9 JUDGE POTTER: The two important things are, A, 10 Mr. Stopher knows nothing that we don't already know anything 11 about and, B, these people are coming in -- I don't know how 12 Mr. Smith knows they're off-duty policemen, but they're not in 13 uniform or anything like that. 14 MR. STOPHER: No. No. 15 JUDGE POTTER: All right. 16 MR. STOPHER: Thank you, Judge. 17 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 18 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher, do you want to call 19 your next witness? 20 MR. STOPHER: Yes, Your Honor. We call Thomas 21 Gosling. 22 JUDGE POTTER: Sir, could I get you to come down 23 here and raise your right hand. 24 25 THOMAS GOSLING, after first being duly sworn, 77 1 was examined and testified as follows: 2 3 JUDGE POTTER: Would you walk around, have a 4 seat in the witness box there, keep your voice up good and 5 loud and would you spell your first and last names and then 6 state it good and loudly. 7 MR. GOSLING: Thomas Gosling, T-H-O-M-A-S, 8 G-O-S-L-I-N-G. 9 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. And, Mr. Gosling, if 10 you'll answer Mr. Stopher's questions and kind of keep your 11 voice up, sir. 12 13 EXAMINATION ___________ 14 15 BY_MR._STOPHER: __ ___ _______ 16 Q. Mr. Gosling, how old are you, sir? 17 A. Fifty-seven. 18 Q. Mr. Gosling, let me ask you if you could speak 19 up just a little bit. The microphone that is on the table 20 there in front of you, do you see see a brown -- 21 A. (Indicates). 22 Q. Yes, sir. That's the microphone that works in 23 this courtroom, not the one that's on the stand. Fair enough, 24 sir? So the one that really does count and that makes us able 25 to hear you is the small one on the table in front of you. 78 1 All right, sir? 2 A. Okay. 3 Q. If you could try to speak up. 4 A. Is that better? 5 Q. Yes, sir. That's a little bit better. If you 6 could try to speak up by speaking at that, it will help us 7 all. Fair enough, sir? 8 A. I'll try. 9 Q. If you'll turn up the volume as much as you've 10 got, we'd all appreciate it, because we do want to hear what 11 you have to say, sir. 12 Mr. Gosling, you are -- did you say 56 or 57? 13 A. Fifty-seven. 14 Q. And, Mr. Gosling, do you live here in 15 Louisville, sir? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And are you employed at the present time, sir? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Where were you last employed, sir? 20 A. Standard Gravure. 21 Q. And when, approximately, did you last work at 22 Standard Gravure? 23 A. September 14th, 1989. 24 Q. Mr. Gosling, are you originally from the 25 Louisville area, sir? 79 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And did you go to school in this area? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Where did you go to high school, sir? 5 A. I graduated from Southern. 6 Q. Southern High School? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And about what year would that have been, sir? 9 A. '55, '56. 10 Q. All right, sir. After you got out of high 11 school what did you do, sir? 12 A. I went to work for The Courier. 13 Q. And was that the same year, sir, or 14 approximately the same year that you got out of high school? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And when you went to work for The Courier, I 17 assume you mean The Courier-Journal, of course? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And when you went to work for The 20 Courier-Journal, what was the first job that you had, sir? 21 A. I worked in the stockroom. 22 Q. And about how long did you work in the 23 stockroom, sir? 24 A. About a year. 25 Q. Then where did you go to work? 80 1 A. I went to work in the newspaper pressroom. 2 Q. Is that where they actually print the 3 newspapers, sir? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And when you went to work, where was The 6 Courier-Journal pressroom located, sir? 7 A. On the first floor. 8 Q. All right. And the first floor of what 9 building, sir? 10 A. I guess the first building. 11 Q. All right. And where is that building located, 12 what streets is it on? 13 A. Armory Street, Broadway and Sixth Street. 14 Q. Mr. Gosling, just in general terms, where was 15 The Courier-Journal pressroom with relation to the Standard 16 Gravure pressroom? 17 A. The pressroom in Area One? 18 Q. Yes, sir. 19 A. They were side by side. The Standard Gravure 20 was on the Armory Street side and the newspaper was on the 21 Sixth Street side. 22 Q. Now, you went to work in the pressroom at The 23 Courier-Journal; correct? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And were you a pressman when you started? 81 1 A. I was a fly-person. 2 Q. Fly-person or a fly-boy they were sometimes 3 called; right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And did you become a pressman at The 6 Courier-Journal? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And about when did you stop working at The 9 Courier? 10 A. About a year after I got my journeyman card I 11 transferred to Standard Gravure. 12 Q. You got a journeyman card? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. And does that make you a pressman? 15 A. That's what they said. 16 Q. Okay. And before that, you have to be a fly-boy 17 to learn how to do it; right? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. All right. So the two levels are fly-boy, then 20 you get a journeyman's card and then you're a pressman? 21 A. No, sir. You're a fly-man, apprentice, then a 22 journeyman. 23 Q. Fly-man, then apprentice. All right. Then 24 about a year after you became a pressman, did I understand you 25 to just say that you transferred or went to Standard Gravure? 82 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. And if my math is correct we're probably talking 3 about sometime in the early 1960s; is that generally right, 4 sir? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. And did you remain a pressman at Standard 7 Gravure from the early 1960s until September 14, 1989? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. Now, Mr. Gosling, during all those years, that 10 would be 25 to almost 30 years at Standard Gravure; right, 11 sir? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. And you worked in the pressroom or the 14 pressrooms all of those years; am I right about that, sir? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. Now, sir, during those years did you ever have 17 an occasion to get to know Joe Wesbecker? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. And with regard to Joe Wesbecker, did you have 20 contact with him at work or outside of work or both? 21 A. Well, a little outside, but mostly at work. 22 Q. Would you see him mostly in the pressrooms or in 23 the reel rooms or in the locker rooms or in the break room? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. That would be where you would usually see him? 83 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. Now, sir, during those years while it was at 3 work and admittedly you had work to do, would you sometimes 4 talk to him? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. And would he sometimes talk to you? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. Did he ever give you any information, sir, about 9 his background and who he was and where he came from? 10 A. Where he worked before he came to Standard? 11 Q. Yes, sir. Did he tell you about that? 12 A. I can't recall the plant. It was down the 13 street. I believe he worked at 8th and Broadway. 14 Q. At another printing plant? 15 A. I believe that's what he said. 16 Q. All right. Did he tell you anything else about 17 where he came from, where he went to school, his parents or 18 any of that stuff? 19 A. Well, we talked. If he did, I don't recall. We 20 just, you know, you sit around and talk. 21 Q. Okay. Just whatever would come to mind; right? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. During the years that he worked there, did he 24 ever start talking to you about wanting to hurt people? 25 MR. SMITH: Objection. Leading. 84 1 JUDGE POTTER: It's preliminary. 2 Q. You can answer it, Mr. Gosling. Did he ever 3 start talking to you about wanting to hurt people? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. Can you tell us approximately when it was that 6 he started talking about wanting to hurt people? 7 A. He was in his second marriage and they were 8 having problems in his second marriage. If you can find out 9 what year that was or what years those were, you can ask. But 10 he had asked to get off the folder and they wouldn't let him, 11 which was a job we had there, and he wanted a different job 12 and they wouldn't move him to a different job. And he thought 13 they were picking on him. And it started out -- 14 MR. SMITH: Your Honor, could we have this in a 15 question-and-answer form as opposed to a narrative? 16 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Mr. Stopher, go ahead and 17 ask your question. 18 Q. How did it start out, sir? 19 A. Well, it started out it was just McKeown. 20 Q. Who is McKeown, Mr. Gosling? 21 A. He was the foreman on five-to-one shift. 22 Q. And how did it start out with McKeown? 23 A. Well, he had asked McKeown to take him off the 24 folder and McKeown wouldn't do it. And he took it as a 25 personal insult and he started saying he wanted to kill him. 85 1 Q. And did he ever say to you how he wanted to kill 2 him? 3 A. He was going to shoot him and -- but at that 4 time I didn't know that Joe owned any guns. I don't know 5 whether he did own any guns at that time. 6 Q. Did Wesbecker ever attempt to follow or to get 7 to McKeown or did he ever tell you he did? 8 A. He told me he did. He told me -- we were 9 working on day work, and he told me he'd go home and get some 10 sleep and then he would get up and watch for McKeown when 11 McKeown got off work and he would follow him to see where he 12 went. 13 Q. Did you ever report any of this to anybody, sir, 14 or tell somebody else about it? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Who did you tell? 17 A. Mike Campbell was acting foreman that day, and I 18 went to the office and told him. 19 Q. And what did you tell Mr. Campbell that Joe 20 Wesbecker had done or had said he had done? 21 A. I told him that Joe told me he was following 22 McKeown when McKeown got off of work. 23 Q. And did you tell Mr. Campbell why Joe Wesbecker 24 told you he was following him? 25 A. I don't recall there was a reason. 86 1 Q. Did you tell Mr. Campbell that Joe Wesbecker had 2 said he was going to kill Mr. McKeown? 3 A. Probably. I can't swear but, you know, that was 4 Joe's intention, so Joe said. 5 Q. After you told this to Mr. Campbell, what 6 happened next? 7 A. Well, I waited until late in the day, then we 8 went home. The next day, well, then, Joe came up to me and 9 wanted to know if I was talking behind his back. And somehow 10 it had got back to him that I had discussed this issue with 11 somebody else. 12 Q. How did he act toward -- how did Joe Wesbecker 13 act towards you when he made those statements to you? 14 A. Well, at the time he was mad. 15 Q. He was mad that you had told this information? 16 A. That I had discussed it with someone else. 17 Q. Did he ever deny it and say it wasn't true or 18 that he didn't mean it, or how did he handle it? 19 MR. SMITH: Your Honor, we're going to object to 20 the continuing leading questions by Counsel. 21 JUDGE POTTER: Sustained. 22 Q. What did Joe Wesbecker tell you after he told 23 you these statements? 24 A. I told him that I didn't know it was supposed to 25 be a secret, and he kind of calmed down and went on back to 87 1 work. 2 Q. Was anything else ever done about that? 3 A. I don't know. I stayed out of it. 4 Q. Mr. Gosling, did you ever see Mr. Wesbecker 5 bring a weapon into Standard Gravure? 6 A. He had one in there one day. 7 Q. Tell us what you remember about that. 8 A. Well, he showed it to me and I told him to put 9 it away and take it back to his locker and get it out of 10 there, and then I went on back. We worked on different 11 presses and I went back to my press. I stayed away from him. 12 Q. Why did you stay away? 13 A. Well, I was afraid if he got mad he'd start 14 using it. 15 Q. Did he ever talk about killing anybody other 16 than McKeown? 17 A. McKeown. 18 Q. McKeown. 19 A. He had a long list: Shea, McCall, Paula Warman, 20 Don Cox. He had a long list. It would depend on whether he 21 was mad at you that day or not, I guess. 22 Q. When you say "he had a long list," was it 23 written down or was it in his head? 24 A. He'd just name off names of people that were 25 working there. 88 1 Q. And would the list change sometime? 2 A. Depend on who he was mad at at the time, I 3 guess, but he stayed mad at McKeown. That's the reason I 4 remember him. 5 Q. Did he ever say how he was going to kill these 6 people? 7 A. Well, he talked about making a bomb and bringing 8 a bomb in there. He talked about coming in with guns and 9 shooting everybody. 10 Q. Did he talk about what he was going to do with 11 the bomb? 12 A. Well, he was going to put it by the solvent 13 tanks. 14 Q. Where are the solvent tanks? 15 A. They've got one up on the -- or they had one up 16 on the fifth floor next to the cafeteria. 17 Q. And did he ever talk about how he was going to 18 set that off or how he was going to do it? 19 A. Well, I don't know who came up with it. One guy 20 came up with an idea that they'd fly a plane into the side of 21 the building. I really don't know how he planned on setting 22 it off. 23 Q. Did he talk to you about coming in and shooting 24 everybody? 25 MR. SMITH: Objection to the continuing leading 89 1 questions of Counsel, Your Honor. 2 JUDGE POTTER: Sustained, Mr. Smith. 3 Mr. Stopher. 4 Q. When he talked about the guns, what did he talk 5 about doing, sir? 6 A. He was going to buy a bunch of guns and he was 7 going to come in and shoot everybody or build a bomb, you 8 know, just whatever. 9 Q. Did he ever talk about what kind of guns he was 10 going to buy? 11 A. Well, he had those Soldier of Fortune magazines 12 and he would show a gun every once in a while, but I don't 13 know what kind they were. 14 Q. Where did he have these Soldier of Fortune 15 magazines? 16 A. He would bring them to work with him and sit 17 there and read them. 18 Q. Did he ever talk about how he was going to bring 19 the guns in? 20 A. Just carry them in. 21 Q. Did he ever talk about what they would weigh or 22 how he would handle them? 23 A. If he did, I don't recall. 24 Q. Did he ever talk about what time of day he would 25 do this? 90 1 A. Well, it wasn't on day work; it was usually -- 2 he wanted to get the bosses so it was usually in the 3 afternoon. 4 Q. Did he name the bosses that he wanted to get? 5 A. Shea, McCall, McKeown, Cox, you know, just 6 anyone who happened to be a boss. 7 Q. And Mr. Shea was the owner? 8 A. At that time, yes. 9 MR. SMITH: Again, we're going to continue to 10 object to the leading and suggestive nature of the questions. 11 JUDGE POTTER: That's a preliminary issue. Go 12 ahead, Mr. Stopher. 13 Q. Who was Mr. Shea? 14 A. Mr. Shea bought the Standard Gravure. He was 15 the owner. 16 Q. And who was Mr. McCall? 17 A. He was the vice-president. 18 Q. And who was Mr. Cox, Donald Cox? 19 A. He was our superintendent at that time of the 20 pressroom. 21 Q. And who was Mr. McKeown? 22 A. McKeown was the five-to-one foreman. 23 Q. Now, did he ever talk in front of anybody else 24 about this? 25 A. Yeah. Sometimes there would be a group. 91 1 Q. And sometimes it was just you? 2 A. Sometimes we would just talk together. 3 Q. Did you ever report any of this to any of the 4 supervisors or bosses? 5 A. We would sit around talking, and I would say I 6 thought he was dangerous, and they'd say no. 7 Q. And would the people that said that he wasn't 8 dangerous, were they the bosses? 9 A. Well, the foremen. 10 Q. Did he ever talk about the people in the office 11 upstairs? 12 A. Upstairs it was -- they were cheating him on his 13 insurance, so it was Paula Warman, -- he thought she wasn't 14 treating him fair -- Shea and McCall. He didn't think they 15 were treating him fair. 16 Q. Did he ever tell you how he thought or why he 17 thought they weren't treating him fair? 18 A. I asked him, and on a couple occasions I would 19 ask him why do you want to hurt this person or that person. I 20 asked him about Paula Warman. He said she did not treat him 21 fair on his insurance, and that's all he told me. 22 Q. Did he ever talk about Donald Cox? 23 A. In depth, he just thought that Cox should have 24 helped him get off the folder when he was asking off, so he 25 wanted to kill him because he didn't help him. It was hard to 92 1 get Joe to explain anything to you. You know, he would tell 2 you he wanted to kill people but he didn't tell you why. 3 Q. Did the people that he wanted to kill sometimes, 4 did they ever talk to him about it, such as Cox or McCall or 5 Shea, to your knowledge, or Warman, did they ever mention 6 anything like this to him? 7 A. I don't know. Now, Warman and McCall and Shea, 8 I wouldn't talk to them. Whether Cox discussed this or any of 9 the rest of them ever discussed his wanting to kill them, I 10 don't know whether they did or not. 11 Q. He went -- he stopped working on long-term 12 disability at Standard Gravure? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. Before he stopped working, how long had this 15 talk been going on by him? 16 A. It had been going on for years. Find out when 17 his second marriage was on the rocks. He started having 18 trouble with his father-in-law and his second marriage. He 19 wanted to get off the folder because he thought that would 20 keep his nerves in check. 21 Q. Did he ever discuss with you why he wanted off 22 of the folder, sir? 23 A. Well, he was having problems at home and he 24 thought that it was too nerve-racking to work the folder and 25 that it would improve his life at home. 93 1 Q. And did he tell you what about working the 2 folder was nerve-racking for him? 3 A. I don't recall. 4 Q. Did he tell you how he tried to get off of 5 working on the folder? 6 A. Well, he asked McKeown to take him off. 7 Q. All right. 8 A. McKeown put the people on the folder that he 9 wanted. 10 Q. Did he take Joe Wesbecker off of the folder? 11 A. After a length of time there was -- they argued 12 for years, and finally they came to an agreement that he 13 didn't have to work it regular or something, I don't know. 14 Q. Did he ever tell you what else he did or ever 15 mention anything else about how he tried to get off of the 16 folder? 17 A. If he did, I forgot it. 18 Q. Did he ever come to you when you were connected 19 with the union in any way? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. What position did you hold with the union? 22 A. I was day-work chairman. 23 Q. And when you were day-work chairman did he come 24 to you and tell you he was having problems? 25 A. Well, we were on day work then and he was on the 94 1 reel on a different press, and occasionally he would come over 2 and say something; maybe somebody said something to him and he 3 didn't think they were -- should be talking to him that way, 4 and he might say something, but I couldn't tell you, you know, 5 who it was. 6 Q. In other words, he would come to you and say 7 somebody said something to him that he didn't like or didn't 8 feel they should be talking to him that way? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. Would these be the bosses or would it be -- 11 A. It would be bosses or journeymen, you know, men 12 in charge and different people like that would say something 13 to him and, you know, I'd tell him, "I didn't hear it, Joe, so 14 I can't really do anything about it." 15 Q. What kinds of things would he report to you that 16 people had said to him that he didn't like? 17 A. Well, they'd threaten to -- say, a man in charge 18 or assistant man in charge would threaten to go home so he'd 19 have to go up on the folder or a foreman would threaten to put 20 him up on the folder, different things like this, and they'd 21 call him nuts and crazy. 22 Q. They would call him nuts? 23 A. A few of them did. 24 Q. Were these the bosses or were these journeymen? 25 A. I don't think it was the bosses. 95 1 Q. It was the journeymen? 2 A. I think so. 3 Q. Some people called him crazy? 4 A. A few of them did. 5 Q. Would he report that to you as -- 6 A. Well, he would come and say something about it 7 and I'd tell him it was -- you know, they were just kidding 8 around. Like he would want to make an issue out of it and 9 bring charges. And I would tell him, well, you know, "They're 10 just playing and you've got to relax more," and he'd go back 11 to work and I'd go back to work. 12 Q. Did you ever talk to any of the men that said 13 those kinds of things and try to get them to stop doing it? 14 A. When we were sitting around I would say, "You 15 know, you shouldn't talk to him that way anymore." And nobody 16 wanted to believe, so they did what they wanted to do. 17 Q. Nobody wanted to believe what, sir? 18 A. That he was sick. 19 Q. Did he talk to you, Mr. Gosling, about his 20 sickness? 21 A. We sat around and talked some about it. 22 Q. What kinds of things did he tell you about it? 23 A. Well, like he would sit -- we'd sit around and 24 talk and he would talk about how bad he was feeling. And I'd 25 tell him to see a doctor and tell him, you know, you could -- 96 1 really you couldn't say a lot at times because he was so 2 agitated, but we would sit around and talk and I'd -- you 3 know, just general, and he just kept talking about how bad he 4 felt. 5 Q. You said that on some occasions you couldn't 6 talk to him because he was so agitated? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. Would you tell us about that. 9 A. Well, once -- well, he would -- he would just 10 get tense, his face would get all red and he would be talking 11 about how many people he wanted to kill, and nothing you said 12 would calm him down. So when he started getting that way, I 13 would usually try to get away from him. 14 Q. When he would get that way, was there any way 15 you could get him out of it? 16 A. Once in a while, but not -- sometimes you 17 couldn't. He just stayed that way till he left work, and then 18 I don't know what he did. 19 Q. Did you ever see him pace or walk up and down? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. Would you tell us what you'd see him do when he 22 did that. 23 A. Well, he was over by his folder and he would 24 just walk around his folder. And sometimes he'd just walk up 25 and down one side of it and he wouldn't -- like, he wasn't 97 1 watching his folder, he'd just be walking up and down 2 alongside of it and -- because he was nervous or excited or 3 whatever. 4 Q. Did his nervousness and this pacing, did these 5 things get better or worse or stay the same? 6 A. At work? 7 Q. Yes, sir. 8 A. I can't -- I can't really say that Joe ever got 9 better at work, so I don't know. 10 Q. How often would you see him pacing like that, 11 walking up and down? 12 A. I'm not sure. Just several days he would do 13 that sometimes, some days he would, some days he would just 14 sit there. 15 Q. Did he ever talk to you as the chairman or the 16 day-work chairman about Pat Lampton? 17 A. Joe didn't like him. 18 Q. Did he tell you why? 19 A. He said he went to him and that Lampton went to 20 the company and told them what he had said. But there were a 21 couple of guys that said that, so I don't know. 22 Q. Do you know why Joe Wesbecker went to see Pat 23 Lampton? 24 A. No. It was -- he wanted off the folder and they 25 -- somehow then he was supposed to go see Pat Lampton and talk 98 1 to Pat Lampton about it and whatever went on, well, then, it 2 didn't work out for Joe. 3 Q. Did he ever go talk to Mike Shea? 4 A. He said he went up there, but I don't know that 5 he talked to him. He may not have been there. 6 Q. What did he say about that meeting with Mike 7 Shea? 8 MR. SMITH: We'd object to that as being 9 hearsay, Your Honor. 10 A. I don't know that he had a meeting with him. 11 JUDGE POTTER: Well, that problem's resolved 12 itself, Mr. Stopher. 13 Q. Did he tell you about what was said in this 14 meeting? 15 MR. SMITH: That's hearsay, Your Honor. We'd 16 object to that. 17 JUDGE POTTER: Sustained. He just said he 18 didn't know if he had a meeting. 19 MR. STOPHER: I'm sorry. I thought I understood 20 him to say that Joe Wesbecker told him he had a meeting. 21 A. He said he went up there, but I don't know that 22 he had a meeting with Mike Shea. 23 Q. I know that you didn't attend the meeting; 24 correct? 25 A. No, sir. 99 1 Q. But Joe Wesbecker made some statements to you; 2 right? 3 A. I don't recall at this time. 4 Q. You don't recall the statements he made to you? 5 A. I don't recall at this time whether he actually 6 even met with Mike Shea. Now, he went up there a couple times 7 with Shea and McCall, and at this time I can't remember 8 whether he met with them. 9 Q. Did he tell you that he met with anybody else up 10 in the office? 11 A. I don't remember if he did. 12 Q. Did he ever mention to you, sir, any particular 13 weapons that he had purchased or was thinking about 14 purchasing? 15 A. One day he mentioned two MAC-10s. 16 Q. Two MAC-10s? 17 A. I think that's what they were. 18 Q. What did he tell you about those? 19 A. He told me he bought two of them and that he was 20 going to the range and practicing. 21 Q. Did he tell you why he bought them? 22 A. No. Did he threaten anybody at that time, I 23 don't believe that came up in the conversation at that time. 24 All he told me was he bought them and he was going to the 25 range and -- but he didn't say he was going to the range 100 1 practicing to shoot Mike Shea or something like that; he just 2 was going to the range and practicing with them is what he 3 told me. 4 Q. Mr. Gosling, Mr. Wesbecker stopped working at 5 Standard Gravure because of disability; correct? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. Did you know how or why he got disability? 8 A. Do I know the reason? 9 Q. Yes, sir. Did he ever -- 10 A. I never saw any of those papers. 11 Q. All right. Did he ever discuss it with you, 12 sir? 13 A. He just told me he got LTD and he was happy with 14 the settlement, and that's all he told me. 15 Q. After he got LTD, did he come back into the 16 plant? 17 A. He was in on several occasions. 18 Q. And did you ever talk to him on those occasions 19 when he was no longer working but would come back into 20 Standard Gravure? 21 A. He would stop by and we would pass the time of 22 day. 23 Q. Did he ever talk to you about his doctor? 24 A. He would mention his doctor, you know, I'd ask 25 him how he was getting along and just things like this. 101 1 Q. Did anybody ever ask him not to come back into 2 the plant? 3 A. He said his doctor told him he couldn't come 4 back in. 5 Q. Did he tell you why his doctor told him not to 6 come back into the plant? 7 A. I don't recall his saying why, his doctor just 8 told him that he couldn't come back in the plant and if he did 9 he wasn't going to be his doctor anymore. And that's what Joe 10 told me, so I guess that's what his doctor said. 11 Q. Did you tell that -- how did you leave it then 12 with him when he told you that? 13 A. I told him it's best he didn't come back. He 14 said he wouldn't. Said he wouldn't see me anymore, and we 15 shook hands and he said good-bye. 16 Q. Do you know how long that was before the 17 shootings that occurred, sir? 18 A. No, sir. 19 Q. He was off on LTD? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. Did you ever talk about that to other people at 22 the plant, what he had said on that occasion? 23 A. When we were sitting around I would say Joe 24 wasn't allowed back in there anymore, and I'd tell them if I 25 saw him coming in I was going to run, and if I was coming down 102 1 the sidewalk and I saw him I was going to turn around and go 2 back home. 3 Q. Why did you tell the other men that? 4 A. Because I felt that if he came in there he was 5 going to do what he did. 6 Q. After he left on that occasion, did he call you 7 on the phone, sir? 8 A. At work a couple times. 9 Q. And when he called you, what did he want to talk 10 about? 11 A. The first time he wanted some of the copies of 12 some of the work sheets, and I couldn't find them, they 13 weren't there any longer, and the second time he was 14 complaining because they sent him a letter cutting his LTD, 15 and I told him he should talk to a lawyer. 16 Q. Did you see the letter that he mentioned, sir? 17 A. No, sir. 18 Q. What did he say about that letter? 19 A. Well, he said they had cut his benefits and he 20 wanted to know if they could do that, and so I told him, I 21 said, "Well, I don't know that the union would have anything 22 to do with it. Talk to a lawyer and see what a lawyer tells 23 you." 24 Q. Did he tell you when they were going to cut his 25 benefits or how much? 103 1 A. No, sir. 2 Q. Or why? 3 A. I don't believe so. 4 Q. You couldn't help him; right? 5 A. No, sir. I didn't feel that it was -- you know, 6 there was anything I could do. I felt that it should be a 7 lawyer's job. 8 Q. Did he say anything else in that last phone 9 call, sir? 10 A. I don't recall what else was said. 11 Q. Is that the last time you ever talked to him, 12 sir? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. Do you know how long that phone call was before 15 the shootings occurred on September 14, 1989? 16 A. Not exactly. 17 Q. What is your best recollection? 18 A. A couple weeks, a couple, three, four, weeks, 19 you know. 20 Q. Now, sir, on the day of the shootings, were you 21 at work at that time, sir? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And did you see Joe Wesbecker that morning, sir? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. Where were you when you saw him, sir? 104 1 A. I was on the B Red Unit on Number One Press. 2 Q. And Number One Press, where is it located, sir? 3 First of all, let me just ask you this: Is it in Area One, 4 sir? 5 A. It's in Area One. It's like here's the office 6 and here's Number One Press right here. 7 Q. Just right in front of the supervisor's office? 8 A. Pretty close. 9 Q. You were on the B Red Unit; am I right? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. And what did you first see? 12 A. You mean, when I saw Joe? 13 Q. Yes, sir. 14 A. I looked up, Joe was in the quiet room door. 15 Q. What's the quiet room? 16 A. That's where the men go when they're taking a 17 break or waiting to go to work. 18 Q. Is that sometimes called the break room? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. And what did you see, sir? 21 A. Joe was standing there. He had his back to me, 22 and he was standing there and you could hear these pops, and 23 that's about it. I took off. 24 Q. What did you do, sir? 25 A. I ran. 105 1 Q. That's all I have at this time, Your Honor. 2 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith? 3 4 EXAMINATION ___________ 5 6 BY_MR._SMITH: __ ___ _____ 7 Q. Mr. Gosling, do I understand it that you came 8 here in a van today, physically here today? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. And was that van owned by Mr. Stopher's law 11 firm? 12 A. I don't know. 13 Q. Did that van pick you up at Mr. Stopher's 14 office? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. You've been sitting in Mr. Stopher's office this 17 morning? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. Did you talk to Mr. Stopher earlier this 20 morning? 21 A. For a minute. 22 Q. Did Joseph Wesbecker ever threaten to kill 23 Dickie Barger in your presence? 24 A. I'm not sure. 25 Q. He didn't, did he? 106 1 A. I don't know. I told you I'm not sure. 2 Q. Okay. You told us about McKeown. 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. Cox. 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. Shea. 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. McCall. 9 A. McCall. 10 Q. And Warman. 11 A. And Paula Warman. 12 Q. Did he ever threaten Dickie Barger? 13 A. I'm not certain. 14 Q. Well, you know he shot and killed him, didn't 15 you? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. But you didn't hear any threats to Dickie 18 Barger, did you? 19 A. I'm not certain. 20 Q. Did Joe Wesbecker ever threaten to shoot Angela 21 Bowman? 22 A. I don't believe he did. 23 Q. Do you know who Angela Bowman is, this lady 24 sitting right here? 25 MR. STOPHER: Could he finish answering the 107 1 question, Your Honor? 2 JUDGE POTTER: I believe he did. 3 A. I don't believe he did. 4 Q. Did you ever hear him threaten to shoot Mike 5 Campbell? 6 A. I'm not certain. 7 Q. Did you ever hear him threaten to shoot Forrest 8 Conrad? 9 A. I don't believe so. 10 Q. Kenny Fentress? 11 A. I'm not certain. 12 Q. Bill Ganote? 13 A. I'm not certain. 14 Q. Chuck Gorman? 15 A. I'm not certain. 16 Q. Sharon Needy? 17 A. I don't think so. 18 Q. You know she was the receptionist? 19 A. There again, I'm not certain, but I don't think 20 he did. 21 Q. All right. 22 A. But that's just like the rest of them. I don't 23 think he did, but he may have at one time or another been mad 24 at them and threatened them. 25 Q. But you don't remember them? 108 1 A. But I don't remember them. 2 Q. How about somebody from Marine Electric? 3 A. No, sir. 4 Q. How about Stanley Hatfield? 5 A. I don't think he did. 6 Q. Did he ever threaten anybody from any 7 subcontractors there? 8 A. I don't think he did. 9 Q. How about Bill Hoffmann, Harold Hoffmann? 10 A. Well, I don't know. 11 Q. Do you remember any threats against Bill 12 Hoffmann? 13 A. He had so many times he would be mad at somebody 14 that -- 15 Q. I'm asking you about Bill Hoffmann. 16 MR. STOPHER: Can he answer the question, Your 17 Honor? 18 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith, let him answer. 19 A. And he would name them off. And if he didn't 20 name them off several times, I wouldn't remember one chance. 21 Q. All right. If he just threatened them once you 22 wouldn't remember that? 23 A. No. Like Paula Warman and McCall and Shea and 24 McKeown, it was every day. 25 Q. Mr. Gosling, did you know that Paula Warman 109 1 never saw or spoke to Joe Wesbecker? 2 A. No, sir. 3 Q. In fact, you and Mr. Wesbecker generally worked 4 different shifts, didn't you, Mr. Gosling? 5 A. No. For a while we were on five-to-one together 6 and for a while we were on day work together. 7 Q. But generally speaking you worked on different 8 shifts, didn't you? 9 A. What did I just say? 10 Q. Generally speaking didn't you just work on 11 different shifts? 12 A. I told you, on five-to-one we worked together 13 for a while and on nine-to-five -- we worked the same shift on 14 nine-to-five for a couple years. 15 Q. How long did you work on the five-to-one shift 16 together, Mr. Gosling? 17 A. I'm not certain. I'll have to check the 18 records. 19 Q. Would it have been a month, a year, two years? 20 A. Probably several years. 21 Q. Two years? How long did you work the 22 one-to-nine shift? 23 A. I'm not certain. 24 Q. A month, a week, years? 25 A. I worked it years. 110 1 Q. You worked it years. I'm talking about with Mr. 2 Wesbecker. 3 A. I don't know whether Joe worked one-to-nine or 4 how often he worked it. 5 Q. Now, Mr. Wesbecker never showed you any written 6 list at all, did he? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Can you separate the rumors from what you've 9 heard since this tragedy to what you actually heard, Mr. 10 Gosling? 11 A. I guess. 12 Q. You guess? 13 A. I guess I can. 14 Q. You never actually went to any supervisors and 15 reported any threats that Joe Wesbecker purportedly made, did 16 you? 17 A. We would talk. 18 Q. You went to some supervisor and reported a 19 threat? 20 A. Campbell was supervisor that day. He was acting 21 foreman. 22 Q. He just said you didn't. 23 A. Well, that's Mike Campbell's side of the story, 24 and you believe what you want. 25 Q. Do you recall when you gave your deposition 111 1 under oath in this case, Mr. Gosling? 2 A. I remember giving a deposition. 3 Q. You were sworn to tell the truth then, like you 4 are now? 5 A. I was sworn to do the best I can. 6 Q. Sworn to do the best you can? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. Didn't the Court Reporter there swear you in to 9 tell the truth? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. You were asked on Page 23, Line 2, "Question: 12 Did you ever mention it to a foreman? 13 "Answer: If there was a foreman in earshot, you 14 know, I have no -- in other words, I wouldn't have held it 15 from them. I don't recall going especially into the office 16 and saying anything but, well, if there was a foreman around, 17 well, then, I wouldn't have held it from him." 18 A. That's right. 19 Q. All right. So you never specifically went to 20 any foreman's office and told any foreman about any threats? 21 A. Into the office? 22 Q. Yes. 23 A. I wouldn't have stepped into the office except 24 that one time when I told Mike. 25 Q. Did you ever go tell Paula Warman that Joe 112 1 Wesbecker was threatening her? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Did you ever go tell Mike Shea that Joe 4 Wesbecker was threatening him? 5 A. Mike Shea, no, I wouldn't. 6 Q. Did you ever go tell Don McCall? 7 A. No, I wouldn't. 8 Q. Did you tell Mr. McKeown? 9 A. Well, I'm not certain. We sat around and talked 10 about Joe, but I'm not sure I would mention that Joe was 11 threatening him. 12 Q. You wouldn't mention it to him? Why wouldn't 13 you mention it to Mr. McKeown if Joe Wesbecker had been 14 threatening him and, in fact, according to you, was getting up 15 early and following him? 16 A. I told it to Mike Campbell. 17 Q. Why didn't you tell Mr. McKeown? He was there 18 working with you and -- 19 A. No. I was on day work and McKeown was on five 20 to one. 21 Q. Why didn't you call him? 22 A. I didn't feel it was my job. 23 Q. You didn't feel it was your job? 24 A. No, sir. 25 Q. To advise the man that he had been threatening 113 1 -- that Joe Wesbecker had threatened him and that he was 2 following him? 3 A. That's right. 4 Q. You didn't take any threats seriously made by 5 Joe Wesbecker, did you, Mr. Gosling? 6 A. Well, I thought it was serious. 7 Q. It was really just idle chitchat, a couple of 8 guys fussing about their work, wasn't it? 9 A. Joe got past the chitchat stage. 10 Q. Yeah. He got past the chitchat stage after he 11 started taking Prozac, didn't he? 12 A. Well... 13 JUDGE POTTER: If you don't know, sir, just... 14 A. I don't know when he started taking Prozac. 15 Q. All right. 16 A. When did he start taking it? 17 Q. Well, let's talk about after Joe went on 18 long-term disability. Okay? You saw him at the plant four or 19 five times after he was on long-term disability? 20 A. He came in a few times, yes. 21 Q. He was a lot more relaxed then, wasn't he? 22 A. He seemed more relaxed, yes. 23 Q. Well, you said he was a lot more relaxed, didn't 24 you? 25 A. He seemed more relaxed. 114 1 Q. A lot more relaxed? 2 A. He seemed more relaxed. 3 Q. He was closer to his old self, wasn't he? 4 A. He was better than he was. 5 MR. SMITH: Can I approach the Witness, Your 6 Honor? 7 JUDGE POTTER: Certainly. 8 Q. In your deposition at Page 33, Mr. Gosling, you 9 were asked, how would Mr. Wesbecker -- 10 MR. STOPHER: Which line are we on? 11 MR. SMITH: Line 3. 12 "How would Mr. Wesbecker act when he came back 13 into the plant? 14 "He was a lot more relaxed, you know, really he 15 was getting closer to his old" -- you want to look at this so 16 we can get it right? "He was really getting closer to his old 17 self when he came in. He wasn't -- you know, in other words, 18 he would come in and we would talk and he wasn't talking about 19 shooting people and he would talk about other things." 20 Correct? 21 THE WITNESS: Can I talk to you a minute? 22 JUDGE POTTER: Well, I tell you what, we're 23 getting close to the lunch recess. Why don't we go ahead and 24 take it. 25 Ladies and gentlemen, we'll take our lunch 115 1 recess. Do not discuss this case with anyone or let anyone 2 discuss it with you, and any attempt to do so should be 3 reported to me. Do not discuss this case among yourselves or 4 form or express any opinions about it. We'll stand in recess 5 till 2:00. 6 (JURORS EXCUSED FOR LUNCH RECESS) 7 JUDGE POTTER: Have a seat, sir. There was 8 something you wanted to say? 9 MR. GOSLING: When I gave this deposition, now 10 I, was taking four different medications. Now, basically what 11 I said there was right, but if he's going verbatim, you know, 12 right there word for word, on what I said, Joe did feel -- 13 acted better, and he did look like he felt better when he came 14 in there, but he wants to say a lot better. 15 JUDGE POTTER: Well, sir, when we resume, you'll 16 just have to explain to Mr. Smith why you feel you could say 17 one thing then and say one thing now. It's all right for you 18 to explain the medication. 19 MR. GOSLING: As long as it's basically the same 20 thing. It was what I believed when I gave the deposition and 21 it's still what I believe now, that he did feel better. 22 I don't know why you're putting the emphasis on 23 the "lot." 24 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Sir, it's just -- you 25 know, he gets to ask the questions, and if -- you need to 116 1 answer them and if you feel like you need to explain your 2 medication -- 3 MR. GOSLING: Well, guys like him, they kind of 4 scare me. They want to tell you that you have to say 5 something. 6 JUDGE POTTER: Well, no, sir; you don't. You 7 just explain it the way you've done it to me when we come back 8 after lunch. See you at 2:00. 9 MR. GOSLING: Thank you. 10 (LUNCH RECESS) 11 SHERIFF CECIL: The jury is entering. All 12 jurors are present. Court is back in session. 13 JUDGE POTTER: Please be seated. Ladies and 14 gentlemen of the jury, I notice one of you has told my sheriff 15 that you have had some upset stomach or has thrown up on the 16 lunch hour, but I notice that you're sitting on the end so you 17 can leave. If you have to, just get up and leave. But what I 18 want to emphasize, it's not only important that you be here 19 physically -- not only that you can make it physically, this 20 is not some sort of fraternity initiation where you're trying 21 to get through it; if you feel like you'll be able to give the 22 case the attention you need and everything, okay. Okay. 23 We'll go forward. 24 Mr. Gosling, I'll remind you you're still under 25 oath. 117 1 Mr. Smith. 2 Q. Mr. Gosling, before lunch we were talking about 3 how Mr. Wesbecker had changed after he came back in those 4 three or four times into the plant after he was put on 5 long-term disability; do you recall that, sir? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. And I think we were at the time reading the 8 deposition testimony you gave back on July 26, 1993. Do you 9 recall giving your deposition? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. And you recall it was our same court reporter, 12 Julia K. McBride, that took your testimony then as she's doing 13 now; right? 14 A. I don't remember. 15 Q. Do you recall that you were sworn in to tell the 16 truth? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. The question was put to you on Page 33, Line 3, 19 "How would Mr. Wesbecker act when he'd come back into the 20 plant." Your answer then was: "He was a lot more relaxed. 21 You know, really, he was getting closer to his old self when 22 he came in. He wasn't -- you know, in other words, he would 23 come in and we would talk and he wasn't talking about shooting 24 people and he would talk about other things." Correct, sir? 25 A. Yes. 118 1 Q. Is that correct that he was a lot more relaxed? 2 A. Well, he was more relaxed. Now, you put the 3 emphasis on a lot more relaxed. Now, he was more relaxed. He 4 wasn't as -- didn't look as stressed out as he did before he 5 got LTD. 6 Q. Well, I was just quoting your word here, it 7 says -- 8 A. That's all well and good. And at the time when 9 I said this I believed this to be the truth, and I still 10 believe it's the good truth, but for some reason you're 11 putting an emphasis on "a lot." 12 Q. That's because it's what it said here. 13 A. I understand that. Now, he was more relaxed; 14 how much more relaxed, I'm not sure. How's that? 15 Q. All right. Do you disagree now that it was a 16 lot more relaxed? 17 A. I agree that Mr. Wesbecker was more relaxed. 18 Q. But you did here say in July of 1993, that he 19 was a lot more relaxed, didn't you, Mr. Gosling? 20 A. He was more relaxed. 21 Q. I'm sorry, Mr. Gosling. 22 A. Is it on that -- is it on that paper? 23 Q. Yes. Can you see it? 24 A. Did the lady write that down? 25 Q. Yes. 119 1 A. Now, at the time I gave this deposition I was 2 taking four medications. 3 Q. You were? 4 A. For my nerves. 5 Q. Uh-huh. 6 A. And I may have said a lot more relaxed and I 7 meant it at the time I gave that deposition. All right? 8 Q. All right. 9 A. Now, I'm not lying, I'm just saying he was more 10 relaxed; how much more relaxed, I really can't say. 11 Q. You say you were taking four medications for 12 your nerves at the time you gave this deposition, Mr. Gosling? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. You had a lawyer there with you, -- 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. -- didn't you? And it was Mr. Doug Becker 17 there? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. And you were in Mr. Stopher's office; right? 20 A. I guess. 21 Q. It says here that you were in Mr. Stopher's 22 office. 23 A. Okay. We were in Mr. Stopher's office. 24 Q. And Mr. Stopher was questioning you and he was 25 asking you if you were okay and if you were able to give your 120 1 deposition. It says, "All right, sir." This is on Page 6, 2 Line 13, it says -- Mr. Stopher said, "All right, sir. Is 3 there any reason today that you feel that you might not be 4 able to testify accurately to the best of your ability?" Your 5 answer was: "It depends, you know, what you ask and what I 6 can remember. I'll have to wait and see what you ask." 7 Correct? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Then Mr. Stopher said: 10 "Question: All right, sir. What I was trying 11 to ask you is do you feel that today you are impaired or 12 limited by things like lack of sleep or perhaps medication or 13 alcohol or concerns about some problem that might affect your 14 ability to testify?" 15 A. Yeah. 16 Q. Your answer there was: "I don't think so." 17 Correct? 18 A. And I didn't. 19 Q. So Mr. Stopher himself gave you the opportunity 20 to mention any medications and you didn't mention there that 21 you were on any medications, did you? 22 A. They didn't ask what medications I was on. 23 Q. Okay. Well, Mr. Stopher asked you if you were 24 on any medications that would impair your ability and you said 25 you didn't think so; correct? 121 1 A. I didn't think so. 2 Q. All right. Do you recall that Mr. Wesbecker was 3 acting differently after he returned to the plant after he was 4 put on long-term disability than before he left Standard 5 Gravure? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. He wasn't talking about shooting people; 8 correct? 9 A. No, sir. 10 Q. He wasn't -- he was talking about other things; 11 correct? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. He was different than before he left? 14 A. He seemed more relaxed. 15 Q. He didn't seem as agitated, either, did he? 16 A. No, sir. 17 Q. He was satisfied that he had been treated 18 fairly, wasn't he? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. He was a happier person, wasn't he? 21 A. Somewhat. 22 Q. You say, "And he seemed satisfied and he was 23 treated -- that he had been treated fairly and he was more of 24 a happier person when I saw him." Correct? 25 A. He told me he thought he had been treated fairly 122 1 when he got his LTD and he was happy with it. 2 Q. He was happy and he thought justice had been 3 done, didn't he? 4 A. That's what he told me. 5 Q. And he didn't threaten anyone at that time, did 6 he? 7 A. Not when he was coming in then. 8 Q. In fact, the look that you had mentioned that he 9 sometimes got when he got red and got mad was gone, wasn't it, 10 after he was put on long-term disability? 11 A. His eyes didn't look as wild as they did before. 12 Q. They didn't look wild at all, did they, sir? 13 A. Well, I can't say that. 14 Q. On Page 47 of your deposition, a question was 15 asked you on Line 25, that's what -- "That's kind of what I'm 16 getting at, because you seemed to indicate from your prior 17 testimony he was doing better and you didn't mind talking to 18 him." 19 Your answer was: "That's what I mean. He -- 20 when he came in after he retired now, whether he bought them 21 then or not after he retired, I can't say that he did not talk 22 about going to the shooting range precisely, you know, but he 23 was more relaxed and he wasn't as threatening. You know, you 24 can sit there and be very threatening, you know, just by the 25 look on your face." 123 1 Question was: "Yes, sir." 2 And then you said -- looky here -- "And the look 3 was gone. 4 "All right. He didn't have that stare in his 5 eyes any longer; correct? 6 "Answer: Right." Then to give the full answer 7 it says: "But I can't swear that he did not -- of those three 8 or four times he came in to work after he retired, I can't 9 swear that he talked about guns at all, but I can't recall him 10 talking about them anymore." 11 Then the question was: "So your best 12 recollection was --" 13 Your answer was, "My best recollection, this 14 stuff happened prior to his retirement. 15 "Question: And he seemed happy after he went on 16 LTD? 17 "Answer: We had a talk and he thought he was 18 treated fairly and he felt like that, you know, everything 19 was -- justice was equal, he felt that they had treated him 20 fairly." Is that correct, Mr. Gosling? 21 A. Right. Right. 22 Q. "He thought his settlement was fair and 23 justified and so he was -- you know, he was -- he was happy." 24 A. Right. He was happy with the settlement. 25 Q. Mr. Wesbecker's divorce was in November 1984, I 124 1 believe, Mr. Gosling. 2 A. His second one? 3 Q. Yes, sir. Was that when these threats were 4 being made? 5 A. Somewhere in there is when he started asking off 6 the folder and they wouldn't let him, and he started saying he 7 wanted to kill different individuals. 8 Q. And how many times did he say that, Mr. Gosling, 9 to you that you specifically remember? This is very 10 important, sir. 11 A. You mean exactly from '84 till '89? 12 Q. Well, you see, he was off work beginning on 13 August 10th, 1988. You saw him three or four times? 14 A. All right. From '84 to '88? I couldn't -- I 15 couldn't begin to count the times. 16 Q. Was it more than 5? 17 A. It was more than that. 18 Q. Was it more than 10? 19 A. I would think so. 20 Q. Was it more than 15? 21 A. I would think so. 22 Q. Was it more than 20? 23 A. I really can't give you a number. 24 Q. All right. Now, in connection with this flying 25 the model airplane into the naphtha recovery system, do you 125 1 recall your testimony on that, Mr. Gosling? 2 A. That was brought up by somebody. 3 Q. That's the point I'm making. You didn't hear 4 that, did you? 5 A. What do you mean I didn't hear it? 6 Q. You say that statement was brought up by 7 somebody. You didn't hear Mr. Wesbecker make that statement, 8 did you? 9 A. I can't say that Joe made that statement, no. 10 Q. All right. You think you may have heard that 11 from somebody else, or somebody else made that threat? 12 A. It may have been someone else who brought that 13 up. 14 Q. You mean somebody else was there talking about 15 flying a model airplane into the naphtha recovery system other 16 than Joe Wesbecker? 17 A. It may have been. 18 Q. So there may have been some rumors about this 19 model airplane that Joe Wesbecker never said, could be 20 attributed to somebody else? 21 A. I can't say that Joe never picked up on it and 22 Joe never said it; I just heard the statement. 23 Q. And you heard it, you think, from somebody else 24 as opposed to Joe Wesbecker? 25 A. It could have been someone else. 126 1 Q. That was making threats about flying a model 2 airplane into the naphtha recovery plant -- system; right? 3 A. Uh-huh. 4 Q. Correct? 5 A. Well, there was talk about flying one in there. 6 Q. But you don't attribute that to Joe Wesbecker? 7 A. Well, I don't recall who was the one that said 8 it. 9 Q. Somebody else was talking about -- 10 A. It may have been someone else. 11 Q. Not Joe Wesbecker? 12 A. It may have been Joe. 13 Q. But you think it could have equally been 14 somebody else? 15 A. The rumor was around for a while. 16 Q. Rumors are vicious things, aren't they, 17 Mr. Gosling? 18 A. Yes, they are. 19 Q. It's important to separate facts from rumors, 20 isn't it? 21 A. Yes, it is. 22 Q. In plants like this where people are working 23 together, there's all kinds of talk that goes around, some of 24 it serious, some of it not serious; isn't is that right, 25 Mr. Gosling? 127 1 A. Yes, it is. 2 Q. Sometimes people say things about people that 3 really are not even meant to be of harm? 4 A. That's true, too. 5 Q. There were brothers and uncles and cousins 6 working there, weren't there? 7 A. Yes, there were. 8 Q. And there was repeated ribbing and joking among 9 those brothers, cousins and uncles, weren't there? 10 A. There was repeated ribbing, joking amongst 11 everybody. 12 Q. This was a guy-type place, wasn't it? 13 A. Yes, it was. 14 Q. Were you involved in an incident, Mr. Gosling, 15 involving a starter gun where you had a starter gun down there 16 and were teasing people by discharging a starter gun on the 17 premises of Standard Gravure? 18 A. I may have been. 19 Q. You weren't trying to kill somebody, were you? 20 A. I don't believe starter pistols kill people. 21 Q. And you weren't trying to kill anybody? 22 A. At that time, no. 23 Q. That was just part of what was going on, some 24 good-natured fun on your part, wasn't it? 25 A. Well, I don't think it was so funny. 128 1 Q. Well, why were you taking -- 2 A. It was funny then. 3 Q. It was something that you did that probably on 4 reflection you wouldn't do again; right? 5 A. I don't think I would do it today, no. 6 Q. All right. But you didn't mean anybody any harm 7 then at the time, did you? 8 A. No, not at the time. 9 Q. Thank you, Mr. Gosling. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher? 11 12 FURTHER_EXAMINATION _______ ___________ 13 14 BY_MR._STOPHER: __ ___ ________ 15 Q. Mr. Gosling, just a few items, sir. You 16 mentioned now several times that Joseph Wesbecker on a number 17 of occasions talked about killing various people at Standard 18 Gravure and said those words directly to you; am I right, sir? 19 MR. SMITH: Objection, leading. 20 JUDGE POTTER: Sustained. 21 Q. Did you take those words seriously or did you 22 take them jokingly? 23 A. Well, when Joe started it, I thought he was 24 joking, but after a while I took them very seriously. 25 Q. Mr. Gosling, can you name the names of everybody 129 1 that he made those kinds of threats to? 2 A. No, sir; I can't. 3 Q. Can you tell us why you can't do that? You've 4 named three or four or five names. Why can't you name them 5 all? 6 A. Well, if he was mad at you today he would have 7 your name there; if he was mad at somebody else tomorrow it 8 would be somebody else's name. 9 Q. Would it just be people in management that he 10 might get mad at? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Would it just be foremen? 13 MR. SMITH: Objection, leading, Your Honor. 14 JUDGE POTTER: Sustained. 15 Q. Was it any particular group of people that he 16 would threaten? 17 A. He threatened a lot of people around there that 18 didn't have anything to do with management. 19 Q. Mr. Gosling, if I understand correctly, after 20 Mr. Wesbecker went on disability you've told us now he came 21 back in the plant on two or three occasions; correct? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. And then on the last occasion he came in you had 24 this conversation about the doctor; am I recalling correctly, 25 sir? 130 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. And what did you say after he left on that 3 occasion? 4 MR. SMITH: Objection, Your Honor. Asked and 5 answered. 6 JUDGE POTTER: Is this about the end of it, Mr. 7 Stopher? 8 MR. STOPHER: Yes, sir. 9 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Answer the question, sir. 10 A. What did I say after he left? 11 Q. Yes, sir. 12 MR. SMITH: That would be hearsay, Your Honor. 13 JUDGE POTTER: Let him answer the question. 14 A. About what? 15 Q. If he ever came in again. 16 A. I went around and told the guys that if he ever 17 came in -- if I was walking down the sidewalk and I saw him 18 coming in the building, I'd turn around and go home, and if I 19 was in the building and I saw him, I was going to run. 20 Q. Mr. Gosling, after that last time he was in, he 21 called you on the phone; right? 22 A. At work? 23 Q. Yes, sir. 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. And on the last time that he called you on the 131 1 phone, was he happy about his LTD? 2 A. No. He was mad because they had cut his LTD, he 3 said. 4 JUDGE POTTER: You're getting to asked and 5 answered. Anything else? 6 MR. STOPHER: That's all I have, Your Honor. 7 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith? 8 MR. SMITH: Just one. 9 10 FURTHER_EXAMINATION _______ ___________ 11 12 BY_MR._SMITH: __ ___ ______ 13 Q. Where did you have lunch today? Did you have 14 lunch today in Mr. Stopher's office, Mr. Gosling? 15 A. No. Lunch? I got a package of crackers. 16 Q. Did you go to Mr. Stopher's office at lunch? 17 A. And I sat up there in his office and ate them; 18 yes, sir. 19 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, may I ask him one 20 other question? 21 JUDGE POTTER: One. 22 23 24 25 132 1 FURTHER_EXAMINATION _______ ___________ 2 3 BY_MR._STOPHER: __ ___ ________ 4 Q. Did you and I have lunch together today or meet 5 together and talk about your testimony here this afternoon? 6 A. No, sir. 7 Q. Was I even in the room with you at lunchtime 8 today, sir? 9 A. No, sir. 10 Q. Thank you, sir. 11 JUDGE POTTER: You may step down. You're 12 excused. 13 MR. GOSLING: Thank you, sir. 14 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher, you want to call 15 your next client -- your next witness? 16 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, I would call Mr. James 17 Popham. 18 JUDGE POTTER: Sir, could I get you to step up 19 here and raise your right hand, please. 20 21 JAMES POPHAM, after first being duly sworn, was 22 examined and testified as follows: 23 24 JUDGE POTTER: Would you walk around there, have 25 a seat in the jury box (sic), spell your first and last names 133 1 for us and then say your name real loudly for the jury, 2 please. 3 MR. POPHAM: Well, my name is James Popham. 4 J-A-M-E-S, P-O-P-H-A-M. It's James Popham. 5 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Popham, if you would keep 6 your voice up and answer Mr. Stopher's questions. 7 8 EXAMINATION ___________ 9 10 BY_MR._STOPHER: __ ___ ________ 11 Q. Mr. Popham, how old are you, sir? 12 A. I'm 54. 13 Q. And where do you live, sir? 14 A. I live in Meade County. 15 Q. And are you employed there, sir? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Mr. Popham, are you originally from Meade 18 County? 19 A. Yes. Meade and Breckinridge. 20 Q. And did you go to school in that area, sir? 21 A. I went to grade school there. 22 Q. All right, sir. And if I understand correctly, 23 when you were a fairly young man you began working at Standard 24 Gravure; is that right, sir? 25 A. That's correct. 134 1 Q. About how old were you when you started at 2 Standard? 3 A. I think I was 19. 4 Q. And if I understand correctly, sir, that would 5 be about 1959; is that right? 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q. How long did you work at Standard Gravure, sir? 8 A. Roughly 31 years. 9 Q. And when did you stop, sir? 10 A. In July of '90. 11 Q. And what was the reason for stopping then, sir? 12 A. Well, I took another job. 13 Q. And was that with another printing facility? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Now, Mr. Popham, going back, during that 31 16 years that you worked at Standard Gravure, did you have 17 relatives of yours that worked there? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Who else that you're related to worked at 20 Standard Gravure? 21 A. I had two brothers worked there. 22 Q. And what are their names, sir? 23 A. Wilfred Popham and Robert Popham. 24 Q. And apparently it was not unusual for people 25 there to be related to each other? 135 1 A. No. 2 Q. It was a very close-knit group of workers, 3 wasn't it, sir? 4 A. I think so. 5 Q. Mr. Popham, if I understand correctly, you 6 worked primarily in the pressrooms during that 31 years; 7 correct, sir? 8 A. That's correct. 9 Q. And what sorts of jobs did you do in the 10 pressroom, sir? 11 A. Well, a little bit of everything. 12 Q. All right. How did you start off, sir? What 13 was your job title? 14 A. Well, I started off as a fly-boy. 15 Q. And about how long were you a fly-boy? 16 A. Probably a year and a half. 17 Q. And then what did you become, sir? 18 A. An apprentice. 19 Q. About how long were you an apprentice? 20 A. Almost five years. 21 Q. And then what did you become? 22 A. A journeyman pressman. 23 Q. And were you a journeyman the rest of the time 24 that you were there, sir? 25 A. Well, for some time. Then I was shift foreman. 136 1 Q. And about when were you shift foreman, sir? 2 A. I believe in '82. 3 Q. And did you remain shift foreman until 1990? 4 A. No. 5 Q. How long were you shift foreman, sir? 6 A. Close to eight years. 7 Q. About eight years? 8 A. (Nods head affirmatively). 9 Q. In other words, most of the remaining time that 10 you were there? 11 A. Uh-huh. 12 Q. Is that a yes, sir? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. The reason I'm asking you that is it will help 15 us if you'll give an answer that can be written down. Fair 16 enough, sir? 17 A. Okay. 18 Q. All right. Mr. Popham, during that period of 19 time, did you have an opportunity to know Joseph Wesbecker? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Did you work with him? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And did you work as a member of crews with him? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Work on the presses shifting around from 137 1 different job to different job through the years? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Were you also a foreman over him? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Were you a shift foreman during the 1980s when 6 he was a pressman or a journeyman? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And would you from time to time assign the jobs 9 as shift foreman? 10 A. Yes, I would. 11 Q. Would you, for example, decide who was going to 12 be the man in charge, who would be the second man in charge, 13 who would be the reel man and who would be the ink man? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Now, sir, during the 1980s, if I understand 16 correctly, it was part of your job to, as shift foreman, 17 decide who worked where; correct? 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. Were some of those jobs harder or more stressful 20 than others? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Which ones were harder or more stressful? 23 A. Well, it would probably vary from one person to 24 the other, but probably the folder work was the most 25 stressful. 138 1 Q. Would you tell us, sir, what folder work is? 2 A. Well, it's keeping the book in register and 3 checking books for quality. 4 Q. What do you mean by keeping the book in 5 register? 6 A. Keep the colors printing on top of each other so 7 that it's legible, readable. 8 Q. I'm not very familiar, sir, with the printing 9 business, but is it something like coloring in a coloring book 10 where you want to keep the colors within the lines? 11 A. I guess to some degree. 12 Q. All right, sir. It's a little more complicated 13 than that? 14 A. A little bit. 15 Q. And is that the responsibility of the person 16 that works the folder? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. What about speed of the press; whose 19 responsibility is that? 20 A. Well, that's generally the person on the folder 21 controls the speed. 22 Q. And what about the amount of waste; whose 23 responsibility is that? 24 A. That's the folder man's decision as to what's 25 waste and what's not. 139 1 Q. And with regard to the quality of the printing, 2 whose responsibility was that? 3 A. Well, that was primarily the folder man's. 4 Q. Now, Mr. Popham, let me show you some 5 photographs that I've marked as Defendant's Exhibits 331, 332 6 and 333. And let me hand each one of these to you one at a 7 time and ask you if they -- what they show, sir. 8 A. (Reviews photograph). 9 Q. Here's 332, sir, and 333. Would you tell us 10 generally what these three photographs show? 11 A. Well, they show the work station at the folders. 12 Q. And the work station at the folders appears to 13 include a lot of different controls; right, sir? 14 A. Right. 15 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, we would move the 16 admission of Defendant's Exhibit 331, 332, and 333 and ask 17 that they be published to the jury. 18 JUDGE POTTER: Be admitted. I've sent my 19 sheriff on an errand. Madame Court Reporter, would you please 20 pass the exhibits to the jurors? 21 COURT REPORTER: (Hands documents to jurors). 22 Q. Mr. Popham, do these photographs show all of the 23 folder? 24 A. No. 25 Q. There's more to it than is even shown in these 140 1 photographs, isn't there? 2 A. Yes, there is. 3 Q. Is the folder job confined to just one area? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Does it cover the whole length of the press or 6 is it spread out over the length of the press? 7 A. Well, the job itself would include 8 responsibility for the entire press. 9 Q. These presses, like the one that we're looking 10 at here in Exhibit 331, sir, can you give us some idea how 11 long they are from one end to the other? 12 A. The press? 13 Q. Yes, sir. 14 A. It's probably close to 100 feet, 85 feet. 15 Q. And are the folder controls located up and down 16 that press? 17 A. No. They're primarily at the work station. 18 Q. Primarily in the middle or at one end? 19 A. At one end. 20 Q. And is that true of all of the presses, sir? 21 A. No. Some of them are in the middle. 22 Q. Some of the folder stations or work stations are 23 in the middle of the press? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Now, sir, do these buttons and levers and so 141 1 forth control the speed of the press, the color quality, the 2 register, the amount of waste, the cutting, are all of those 3 things controlled at the controls shown in these photographs? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And how does a folder operator know whether or 6 not the stuff that's coming out at the other end is right? 7 A. He has to pick up a book and check it. 8 Q. How does he pick up a book? Does he go down 9 there to the other end? 10 A. That's really where he's working at most of the 11 time. 12 Q. Where the books are coming out? 13 A. Where the books are coming out of the folder. 14 Q. Are there adjustments that sometimes need to be 15 made on different units of the press? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Are those sometimes made by the folder man? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Is the folder man also called the man in charge? 20 A. The man in charge was the folder man. 21 Q. All right. They're the same thing? 22 A. But there was usually two of them. 23 Q. And why was that? 24 A. Well, they shared the job. 25 Q. There was a first man in charge? 142 1 A. First man and a second man in charge. 2 Q. And how did they split up the job? 3 A. Well, they usually worked at the station a half 4 hour on and a half hour off. 5 Q. So the man in charge would work for a half hour? 6 A. Right. 7 Q. Then the second man in charge would work for a 8 half an hour? 9 A. That's right. 10 Q. As the shift foreman, sir, did you have the 11 power to assign any pressman to be the folder man or the first 12 man in charge? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Mr. Popham, did there come a time when you were 15 made aware that Joseph Wesbecker did not want to work the 16 folder? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. How did that come to your knowledge, sir? 19 A. Joe told me. 20 Q. How did he tell you? 21 A. He said the folder made him nervous and he'd 22 like to not have to work it. 23 Q. And did he tell you how it made him nervous? 24 A. Well, I don't recall exactly. I suppose that's 25 when he told me that he was diagnosed as a manic depressive. 143 1 Q. And did he tell you what it would do to him or 2 to his nerves if he had to work the folder? 3 A. Well, not other than just making him nervous. 4 Q. Did he tell you anything about his concerns as 5 to whether or not he would lose his job? 6 A. No, I don't think he told me directly. 7 Q. Did he tell you indirectly? 8 MS. ZETTLER: Your Honor, we object, it's 9 hearsay. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Sustained. 11 Q. Did information come to you as to what he wanted 12 done with regard to him and the folder? 13 A. He wanted to not have to work it. 14 Q. Did you agree to let him off immediately? 15 A. Personally I did, yeah. 16 Q. You were just one of the men that assigned him 17 to that job? 18 A. Right. 19 Q. Did -- had you noticed anything in his 20 appearance or in his abilities to work at that time regarding 21 nervousness? 22 A. Not specifically, no. 23 Q. Was he still able to work the folder? 24 A. Well, he appeared to be. 25 Q. Did you ask all of the other foremen to exempt 144 1 him or let him off of the folder at that time, sir? 2 A. Only the other foremen on that shift. 3 Q. But not the foremen on the other two shifts? 4 A. No. I never discussed it with them. 5 Q. During that period of time, sir -- and what 6 period of time are we talking about that you think he first 7 came to you? 8 A. I'm not real sure. Somewhere in the late '80s. 9 Q. '86, '87? 10 A. Well, it would be a guess. I wouldn't want to 11 put a specific year on it. 12 Q. At that time, sir, was he the same person that 13 you had known earlier? 14 A. Well, he -- probably not. 15 Q. How was he different, sir? 16 A. Well, he was probably more stressed, more 17 serious. 18 Q. How was he more stressed? 19 A. Well, I don't know. Just in his attitude, he 20 wasn't as friendly or as outgoing. 21 Q. Was he withdrawn? 22 A. With me he was. 23 Q. How did he act withdrawn with you? 24 A. Well, he just -- lack of communication. He 25 avoided me. 145 1 Q. How would he do that? 2 A. Well, just by not having casual conversations or 3 just avoided talking to me. 4 Q. Did you have a locker near his, sir? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Before he started avoiding talking to you, did 7 you used to chat with him about various things? 8 A. Yes. Uh-huh. 9 Q. When did he stop talking to you? 10 A. Well, it was after some time had passed after he 11 had asked me to take him off the folder. It seemed to be 12 gradual to the point that he got to where he wouldn't speak. 13 Q. He asked to be taken off the folder, you agreed 14 to do that and then he started not speaking to you? 15 MS. ZETTLER: Objection, leading. 16 JUDGE POTTER: Sustained. 17 Q. Did he stop speaking to you before or after you 18 took him off the folder? 19 A. After. 20 Q. And did he stop speaking altogether at one time 21 or how did it come about? 22 A. Well, I don't know. I mean, I realized it all 23 at one time, but I don't know how long it had been gradually 24 coming up. 25 Q. Did you ask him why he had stopped speaking to 146 1 you? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. What did he say? 4 A. He didn't answer. 5 Q. He wouldn't answer you at all? 6 A. No. 7 Q. You directly asked him, "Joe, why are you not 8 speaking to me," and he just didn't respond at all? 9 MS. ZETTLER: Objection. Leading. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Overruled. 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. Mr. Popham, did he ever speak to you after that, 13 sir? 14 A. He would speak to me if it was job related. 15 Q. What do you mean if it was job related, sir? 16 A. Well, if I had specific instructions for him to 17 do something or to handle things a certain way, then he would 18 complete that conversation. 19 Q. But what if you just went up to him and said, 20 "Hi, Joe, how are you doing today," what would he have said? 21 A. Probably nothing. 22 Q. Did you speak to anybody else to try to see what 23 the reason for this was? 24 A. No, I don't think so. 25 Q. Was there ever a reason that you could think of 147 1 as to why he would stop speaking to you? 2 A. Well, just guessing, I know I made him mad one 3 time when he wanted to trade his workdays and I wouldn't let 4 him. 5 Q. What do you recall about that, sir? 6 A. Well, he wanted to come in and work on his off 7 day and take another day off, and I didn't allow him to and 8 that made him mad. 9 Q. Did he ever speak to you after that? 10 A. I don't know. Probably. I'm not sure what time 11 frame we're working in. 12 Q. Was there anybody else involved in that 13 conversation when he asked for a day off or wanted to switch 14 his day off? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Who else? 17 A. Jim Sitzler was there. 18 Q. And did he enter into that request or your 19 response to that? 20 A. Yes, he did. 21 Q. What did he say or do, sir? 22 A. Well, he just told Joe that Joe surely knew I 23 couldn't do that. 24 Q. And what was Joe Wesbecker's reaction to that? 25 A. Well, I think at the time he just walked off. 148 1 Q. Mr. Popham, is there anything else that ever 2 occurred between the two of you that would have led to his 3 never speaking to you? 4 A. Not that I know of. 5 Q. You'd been friends before; am I right? 6 A. Yes. Well, reasonably so. 7 Q. Okay. After that, Mr. Popham, did it ever come 8 to your attention that he had threatened to kill you? 9 MS. ZETTLER: Objection. Leading. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Sustained. 11 Q. Mr. Popham, did you ever become aware of any 12 threat against you? 13 MS. ZETTLER: Same objection. 14 JUDGE POTTER: Let me see you-all up here for 15 just a minute. 16 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 17 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher, I'm sustaining the 18 objection because it assumes some facts not in evidence. 19 MS. ZETTLER: He's going to ask him about 20 hearsay, and Mr. Wesbecker never directly threatened his life, 21 ever. 22 JUDGE POTTER: What is the purpose about whether 23 he was asking whether it came to his attention? 24 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, he was the foreman and 25 was responsible for the safety and the working of the plant 149 1 and reporting these items. And if it was reported to him by 2 Mr. Lucas that Mr. Wesbecker was going to blow his head off -- 3 MS. ZETTLER: He's going to testify that he 4 didn't know until after the shootings in '89 that the man had 5 a gun on the premises. 6 MR. STOPHER: I'm just talking about knowledge 7 of the company if a foreman knew. 8 JUDGE POTTER: I think since Standard Gravure is 9 going to have a potential for a portion of the responsibility 10 and I think one of the elements of responsibility is what they 11 knew or could have known at the time this thing happened, I 12 think he can get in hearsay evidence that the people at the 13 foreman level were aware or believed themselves to be aware. 14 MS. ZETTLER: But this was a personal threat 15 against this man himself by his employees on the floor. 16 JUDGE POTTER: Right. 17 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 18 Q. Mr. Popham, did it ever come to your attention 19 that a threat was made against you? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Would you tell us about that, sir? 22 A. Well, a co-worker called me and told me to be 23 careful what I said around Joe because he had told him that if 24 any -- if I said anything that wasn't job related he'd blow my 25 head off. 150 1 Q. Who was the co-worker that reported this to you, 2 sir? 3 A. Jim Lucas. 4 Q. Can you tell us approximately when this was 5 reported to you, sir? 6 A. I'm pretty vague on it. 7 Q. Let me remind you that the shootings occurred on 8 September 14, 1989, and that Mr. Wesbecker last worked on 9 August 6, 1988. Can you fix it for us, sir? 10 A. Well, it would have been awhile before he left. 11 Not really too, too long before he left. 12 Q. Now, sir, when Mr. Lucas told you these 13 statements, did Mr. Lucas tell you that it was a joke or that 14 it was something else? 15 A. No. I assumed it was serious. 16 Q. And did you do anything about it, sir? 17 A. Not at the time. 18 Q. Did you ever do anything about it? 19 A. Well, I didn't really do anything about it. I 20 informed Donald Cox the next day. 21 Q. And who at that time was Donald Cox? 22 A. He was the pressroom superintendent. 23 Q. He would have been your boss? 24 A. Right. 25 Q. And what did you tell Mr. Cox? 151 1 A. Well, just what I said, Lucas had told that he 2 had said if I talked to him or anything that wasn't work 3 related, he'd blow my head off. 4 Q. What did Mr. Cox say when you reported this to 5 him, sir? 6 MS. ZETTLER: Objection. Hearsay. 7 JUDGE POTTER: Overruled. 8 A. Well, I really don't recall. 9 Q. Did he do anything? 10 MS. ZETTLER: Same objection. 11 JUDGE POTTER: Overruled. 12 A. I don't know if he did or not because I really 13 wasn't involved in it if he did. 14 Q. Did you talk to anybody else about this other 15 than Mr. Cox? 16 A. Probably. Probably did. I don't recall 17 specifically, though. 18 Q. Did you talk to other foremen about it, sir? 19 A. Well, I'm sure I talked to Bill McKeown who was 20 on the shift. 21 Q. Who is Bill McKeown? 22 A. He was the other shift foreman. 23 Q. You were the -- did you tell us which shift 24 foreman you were, sir? 25 A. Area Two. 152 1 Q. Area Two? 2 A. And Bill was in Area One. 3 Q. And were you the day or the night foreman or 4 first, second or third shift? 5 A. Five-to-one shift. 6 Q. Five-to-one shift? 7 A. In the afternoon. 8 Q. And Bill McKeown was the Area One, same time, 9 same shift; right? 10 A. Correct. 11 Q. Did he say or do anything after you reported 12 this to him? 13 MS. ZETTLER: Objection. Hearsay. 14 JUDGE POTTER: Overruled. 15 A. I don't know. 16 Q. Mr. Popham, didn't you also tell other men about 17 this threat? 18 A. Well, I can't be very specific. I'm sure I 19 discussed it with two or three co-workers. 20 Q. Let me ask you, sir, if you remember giving your 21 deposition in this case on June 18, 1992, under oath. Do you 22 recall that, sir? 23 A. Yes. Yes. 24 Q. Let me ask you if you gave these answers to 25 these questions on Page 68. 153 1 MS. ZETTLER: Which line? 2 Q. Line 21. "Did you ever tell any of the other 3 pressmen about it? 4 "Answer: I probably told Walter Emert and Jim 5 Sitzler and some of the fellows that I knew was around him 6 from time to time that it was serious enough that they ought 7 to be careful what they said and how they behaved. I don't 8 think I took it beyond that." Do you recall that, sir? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Is Walter Emert a foreman? 11 A. No. Walter was a man in charge on a press. 12 Q. He was the folder man? 13 A. Right. 14 Q. Was that on a press that Joe Wesbecker worked 15 on? 16 A. At times. 17 Q. Who was Jim Sitzler? 18 A. He was a folder man. 19 Q. Was that on the folder that Joe Wesbecker 20 sometimes worked on? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And when you say "and some of the fellows that I 23 knew was around him from time to time," is that just foremen 24 or was it also co-workers? 25 A. No. That would have been co-workers. 154 1 MS. ZETTLER: Objection. Leading. 2 JUDGE POTTER: Well... 3 Q. Mr. Popham, after Mr. Wesbecker stopped working 4 at Standard Gravure, did you ever see him again, sir? 5 A. No, I don't think so. 6 Q. Did you ever have an occasion to talk to him on 7 the phone about long-term disability or his situation after he 8 stopped working? 9 A. No. 10 Q. In other words, after he stopped working there, 11 that ended your connections with him, as far as you knew? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Mr. Popham, was there a security or a manager of 14 security at Standard Gravure at the time that you were made 15 aware of these threats? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Who was the manager of security? 18 A. Well, I suppose it was Grady Throneberry, but I 19 may be out of time frame. 20 Q. After you made these statements to Mr. Cox, 21 Mr. McKeown, Mr. Emert and Mr. Sitzler, did anybody in 22 security follow up and ask you any questions about Joe 23 Wesbecker or about Jim Lucas and the report of the threat? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Was any action ever taken at all by Standard 155 1 Gravure, to your knowledge, sir, with regard to that threat 2 that had been made on your life? 3 A. No. 4 Q. That's all I have, sir. 5 JUDGE POTTER: Ms. Zettler? 6 7 EXAMINATION ___________ 8 9 BY_MS._ZETTLER: __ ___ _______ 10 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Popham. I just have a few 11 questions for you. Okay? 12 A. Okay. 13 Q. Joseph Wesbecker never directly threatened you 14 personally, did he? 15 A. No. 16 Q. In fact, you've never heard Joseph Wesbecker 17 threaten anybody, have you? 18 A. No. 19 Q. And you talked to Mr. Wesbecker after this 20 alleged incident that was reported to you by James Lucas with 21 the gun; correct? 22 A. I talked to him about work-related things, yes. 23 Q. And at the times that you talked to him about 24 work-related things he acted just like a regular fellow about 25 it, didn't he? 156 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. You never asked Mr. Wesbecker directly if he had 3 ever made a threat to you, did you? 4 A. No. 5 Q. After Mr. Wesbecker told you that he wanted to 6 get off of the folder because of his mental illness, you 7 talked to Mr. McKeown about it; correct? 8 A. That's correct. 9 Q. And between the two of you, you agreed not to 10 put Mr. Wesbecker on the folder during that shift that you 11 worked; correct? 12 A. That's correct. 13 Q. I believe you testified in your deposition that 14 just prior to -- strike that. 15 I believe you testified in your deposition that 16 the incident that was reported to you by Mr. Lucas with a gun 17 happened right before Mr. Wesbecker was placed on long-term 18 disability; is that correct? 19 A. Probably. 20 Q. And you believe that that had something to do 21 with him getting long-term disability; correct? 22 A. I thought it might. 23 Q. You never really thought Mr. Wesbecker was going 24 to shoot you, did you, Mr. Popham? 25 A. Well, no, really I didn't. 157 1 Q. In fact, you as a foreman at Standard Gravure 2 would deal with a certain level of confrontation from workers 3 underneath you on a daily basis, wouldn't you? 4 A. From time to time. 5 Q. That's all I have. Thank you. 6 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much, sir. You 7 may step down. You're excused. 8 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 9 MR. STOPHER: This may be a good time to take a 10 short break. 11 MR. SMITH: Who's next? 12 MR. STOPHER: Helm and Senters. 13 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 14 JUDGE POTTER: Ladies and gentlemen, we're going 15 to take the afternoon recess. As I mentioned to you-all 16 before, do not permit anybody to discuss this case with you or 17 do not form or express any opinions about it. We'll stand in 18 recess for 15 minutes. 19 (RECESS) 20 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith, Mr. Stopher, over the 21 lunch break my sheriff had advised me that one of the jurors 22 had become sick to her stomach. We went ahead and moved her 23 -- we went ahead with the first witness after lunch but moved 24 the juror so she could be closest to the door. She's informed 25 my sheriff that she has once again been sick to her stomach 158 1 and at this time does not feel like she can come back and 2 participate in the trial this afternoon, so my intention at 3 this time is not to excuse her but to take the rest of the 4 afternoon off. We're looking at an hour and a half. 5 Does anybody have -- I gave them the admonition 6 about not letting people talk to them about the case before 7 they went out for the 15-minute recess. Does anybody feel 8 it's necessary for me to call them back in to admonish them 9 again or anything, or is it just all right if my sheriff tells 10 them to be here at nine in the morning? 11 Madame Sheriff, just tell them to be here at 12 nine in the morning. 13 Is there anything else we need to take up before 14 we recess until tomorrow? 15 MR. SMITH: Your Honor, at this time, it's my 16 understanding that Mr. Helm was scheduled to be here as the -- 17 as Mr. Stopher's next witness. Mr. Helm has been present in 18 the courtroom on at least one day, maybe two days in violation 19 of the rule that has been invoked. We would move to strike 20 Mr. Helm as a witness. 21 JUDGE POTTER: Do you plan to call Mr. Helm? 22 MR. STOPHER: Yes. I didn't know he had been in 23 the courtroom, Your Honor. 24 JUDGE POTTER: Is he here now? 25 MR. STOPHER: Yes, sir. 159 1 JUDGE POTTER: Do you know which days he was 2 here? 3 MR. STOPHER: I have no idea. I didn't know he 4 was here. 5 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Let's call him in. 6 (To Sheriff Cecil) You've got to pick up their 7 notebooks, don't you? Go ahead and pick up their notebooks. 8 I tell you what. Why don't we take about a five-minute 9 recess. 10 SHERIFF CECIL: Am I holding you up? 11 JUDGE POTTER: No. We'll take a five-minute 12 recess. 13 (RECESS) 14 JUDGE POTTER: Could I get you to step down here 15 and raise your right hand, please. 16 17 WILLIAM HELM, after first being duly sworn, was 18 examined and testified as follows: 19 20 JUDGE POTTER: Please have a seat there, sir. 21 And what is your first and last name? Let me do a little 22 bookkeeping here. 23 MR. HELM: William B. Helm. 24 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Helm, have you watched any of 25 this trial other than the last five minutes from the back 160 1 there? 2 MR. HELM: I was here one day about a week or 3 two ago, two weeks ago. 4 JUDGE POTTER: How many days were you here? 5 MR. HELM: One day. 6 JUDGE POTTER: The whole day or just a couple of 7 hours? 8 MR. HELM: No. Most of the day. 9 JUDGE POTTER: What was going on up here? 10 MR. HELM: Frosty was on the stand. 11 JUDGE POTTER: You'll have to -- I'm sure one of 12 these people out here is Frosty, but you'll have to give me a 13 better name than that. 14 MR. HELM: Conrad. I think it was the beginning 15 of the trial. 16 JUDGE POTTER: This was when witnesses were on 17 or when it was opening statement? 18 MR. HELM: This is when the witnesses were on. 19 JUDGE POTTER: Do you remember any other 20 witnesses? 21 MR. HELM: I think the fellow from -- the 22 electrician from Marine Electric was here, Stanlockbach or 23 something like that. 24 MS. ZETTLER: Seidenfaden? 25 JUDGE POTTER: You were probably here the -- 161 1 MR. HELM: Chuck Gorman was here. 2 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Hatfield, Mr. Gorman, Mr. 3 Pointer? 4 MR. HELM: Andrew, yeah. Right. 5 JUDGE POTTER: How about Mr. Hoffmann? 6 MR. HELM: Yeah. Mr. Hoffmann. 7 JUDGE POTTER: And you were only here one day 8 and you were here most of the day? 9 MR. HELM: That's right. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Does anybody else have any 11 questions of Mr. Helm? 12 Thank you very much, sir. You want to step 13 down? Mr. Helm, could I get you to wait outside? 14 Okay. Mr. Smith, Ms. Zettler, what do you want 15 to say on behalf of your motion? 16 MR. SMITH: We move to strike Mr. Helm as a 17 witness, Your Honor, by virtue of the fact that he's heard 18 testimony, heard factual accounts of the facts and 19 circumstances surrounding the situation at Standard Gravure, 20 Mr. Wesbecker, the plaintiffs in this matter and, as such, has 21 violated the rule, and we would move the Court to strike him 22 as a witness. 23 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher, I think we can -- 24 looking at my notes we're talking about that first Tuesday, 25 because the first day was taken up with Ms. Bowman and Ms. 162 1 Warman and that was a Monday, and then all the names I read 2 came that second day. What do you want to say? 3 MR. STOPHER: Well, first of all, Judge, he's 4 talking about hearing the plaintiffs testify, and I think Mr. 5 Smith says that he listened to factual accounts. We're 6 talking about factual accounts on the day of the shootings. 7 JUDGE POTTER: Give me a 20-word synopsis of 8 what you hope to establish through this witness. 9 MR. STOPHER: Mr. Helm was the superintendent in 10 the pressroom and stopped working there in 1986. He was not 11 there on September 14, 1989, and it's not our purpose to ask 12 him anything about September 14, 1989; he doesn't know 13 anything about it. He did have an important conversation with 14 Mr. Wesbecker in December of 1987 or early 1988, and the 15 purpose of his testifying is to talk about that conversation. 16 In response to the motion, Your Honor, I did not 17 see nor did anybody connected with us see Mr. Helm here, had 18 no idea that he would come here and be here. Obviously Mr. 19 Smith knew it or learned about it and failed to bring it to 20 the Court's attention or anybody else. 21 JUDGE POTTER: I'm assuming that he learned 22 about it today or probably only minutes ago, but go ahead. 23 MR. STOPHER: But the point is I did not know 24 about it and somebody else did. I don't know what else to do 25 except to screen people at the door and to ask them if they 163 1 are potential witnesses. I cannot see who is seated back 2 there nor can anybody that's participating in this trial. Our 3 focus is on the witness and what's going on down here. 4 Ninety-nine percent of these people I can't recognize, Your 5 Honor, so to penalize us because a potential witness comes in 6 for one day and testifies about subject matter that he's not 7 going to be testifying about when somebody must have klnown 8 that he was here other than us, we would submit is unfair. To 9 avoid this in the future, Your Honor, we would ask the 10 security people if they would ask anybody if they're going to 11 be a witness. We don't want to violate the rule. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Is there anything further you 13 want to say on behalf of your motion? 14 MR. SMITH: Yes, Your Honor. The witnesses that 15 Mr. Helm heard testify, testified as to past experiences with 16 Joe Wesbecker, past situations at Standard Gravure and, you 17 know, the rule is explicit that the party who's calling the 18 witness has the obligation to ensure that the witness isn't 19 there. I just learned of it at the break. I also learned of 20 two other individuals at the break who were present in the 21 courtroom, that's Mr. McKeown and Mr. Westerman, and we're 22 going to move -- be forced to move to strike them as witnesses 23 also, Your Honor. 24 JUDGE POTTER: The rules, as it's so called, 25 which is now I guess Evidence Rule 615 has always given me a 164 1 little bit of a problem. We discussed it among ourselves 2 prior to this case whether it would prevent -- how it was 3 going to be interpreted and applied in this case, and you-all 4 were able to agree that it would not prevent you from telling 5 a prospective witness of what had gone on prior to that 6 witness appearing. 7 In my opinion, the exclusionary rule is not so 8 much directed at the dishonest witness but is directed at the 9 honest witness and it is to keep that witness's testimony 10 fresh. The honest witness comes in and hears three people 11 testify contrary to his anticipated testimony, then that 12 person may subconsciously not be as forceful as they would 13 have been had they come in fresh. Other people interpret it 14 to try and catch out the liar because the liar won't know what 15 went on before and you can trap them. But whatever the 16 purpose of it is, the rule is really unclear as to what the 17 appropriate penalty is. I think past cases before the rules 18 of evidence came into effect said it was within the judge's 19 discretion whether or not to let a witness testify after there 20 had been a violation of the rule. 21 In this particular case, looking back at my 22 notes, the only thing Mr. Helm would have heard were events 23 primarily, if not exclusively, that took place on September 24 14th, and this is when they were walking Mr. -- not walking 25 Mr. Wesbecker -- but the people that Mr. Wesbecker shot and 165 1 are still alive as he went through that plant. So as a 2 sanction, I think it's -- there was a violation of the rule; 3 however, I decline to impose the severe sanction of preventing 4 the witness from testifying. 5 Who are the other two people, or do we know what 6 days they were here on, I mean, that may be... 7 MR. CAMPBELL: I can't give you exact dates. 8 JUDGE POTTER: My ruling may be different on 9 other people, but I just -- it depends on who they are and 10 what they're going to testify to. And this person is going to 11 testify to something that had nothing to do with what he heard 12 the testimony on, so I'm going to -- 13 MR. STOPHER: Who are the other two? 14 MR. SMITH: McKeown and Westerman. 15 JUDGE POTTER: Why don't we -- do you know where 16 they are in your lineup? 17 MR. STOPHER: No. Honestly, Judge, I don't. I 18 will write a letter today to everybody that is a potential 19 witness and tell them not to attend or be present in the 20 courtroom. 21 JUDGE POTTER: What we need to do is the day 22 these people call them, if you do, have a little voir dire 23 like we did with this person and then I'll make my ruling. 24 MR. SMITH: We just learned that John Tingle and 25 Dennis Ellis have also been here. 166 1 JUDGE POTTER: The rule is something that was 2 announced to the lawyers; it is not something the witnesses 3 are supposed to know. And I'm sure Mr. Smith and Mr. Stopher 4 know this, but it is no criticism of Mr. Helm. I'm sure it 5 was just a curiosity or whatever that brought him here. But 6 the trial is not a game; it is where we try and get the best 7 evidence for each side before a jury. And so there's a 8 natural inclination on my part, unless I feel I have to, is to 9 let each side call the witnesses they want to call. So to 10 make things smoother if, Mr. Smith, if you've -- you've 11 already done it, give Mr. Stopher those names so that he can 12 alert us and we can have the type of hearing we did here. 13 Okay. I'll see you-all. Anything else before 14 9:00 tomorrow morning? 15 MR. SMITH: Is there going to be any more 16 witnesses called tomorrow other than have been designated on 17 the first two witness lists? 18 MR. STOPHER: I don't think so, Judge. I've 19 designated some depositions and I believe tomorrow is probably 20 the sixth day. I identified them on Wednesday, and if there's 21 any problem with those I'd like to start having the option to 22 read some of those tomorrow. 23 MS. ZETTLER: Do you know which ones 24 specifically? 25 MR. STOPHER: No, I don't. 167 1 MS. ZETTLER: You didn't give us all of them at 2 the same time. The four that you gave us originally, those 3 will be done this afternoon. 4 JUDGE POTTER: You want to be here at 8:30 5 tomorrow? 6 MS. ZETTLER: How about 8:00? I think in all 7 fairness to us, though, Judge, we've given them the order in 8 which we were going to be using our depositions, and I think 9 we deserve that same sort of courtesy, also. 10 JUDGE POTTER: We'll plan to -- trial stands in 11 recess till nine o'clock, and I'll see you-all over here at 12 eight, the people that are working on the deposition. 13 (OPEN COURT PROCEEDINGS TERMINATED AT 14 3:40 P.M.; HEARING IN CHAMBERS) 15 JUDGE POTTER: Let me just say something. The 16 reason I did that out there is simply because I thought the 17 plaintiffs would be listening and they would want an 18 explanation of what was going on, and so that's why I did that 19 out there as opposed to doing it in here. 20 Let me just ask, Mr. Stopher, that as far as -- 21 be very accommodating to them on what order you're going to 22 take your witnesses. They were very, very accommodating to 23 you on that portion of it, and so I just -- be very 24 accommodating. 25 MR. STOPHER: I understand. I think I have been 168 1 so far, haven't I? I've told you everybody I was calling. 2 MR. SMITH: Yeah. 3 MR. STOPHER: I've told you everybody I was 4 calling and the order in which I called them; right? 5 JUDGE POTTER: It may be a little tempting to -- 6 it may be tempting at some time to hold off a little bit or 7 say you haven't made up your mind when you really have, and 8 all I'm doing is ask that you keep them as absolutely informed 9 as you can on how many you're going to do tomorrow and what 10 order you're going to do them in. 11 MR. STOPHER: Frankly, they're going faster than 12 I expected and are going to go a little bit faster. I think 13 we're going to go deeper on the list. 14 JUDGE POTTER: As long as they know the order, 15 they can't really complain. That's really all I want to say. 16 Just for your planning purposes, Mr. Smith, and 17 just so that -- in preparing your clients for likely outcomes, 18 how about that's the way to put it, I've been here 12 years 19 and I don't think I've ever excluded anybody for violating the 20 rule unless I thought it was willful and really dealt -- the 21 two topics dealt with each other. 22 MR. SMITH: I just found out about it at the 23 break. 24 JUDGE POTTER: I know you did. You went out 25 there and all these plaintiffs had heard me say it, and when 169 1 they started to call them -- I'm not saying you shouldn't make 2 your motions and I won't rule on them. I don't know that I've 3 ever granted one because I don't think that I've ever had one 4 that where it was willful on the same topic. But certainly 5 make them and I'll rule them and we'll go on. That just helps 6 you for planning purposes and whatever. 7 Okay. I'll see you-all at 8:00, or see one of 8 you-all at 8:00. 9 (PROCEEDINGS TERMINATED AT 3:50 P.M.) 10 * * * 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 170 1 STATE OF KENTUCKY )( )( Sct. 2 COUNTY OF JEFFERSON )( 3 I, JULIA K. McBRIDE, Notary Public, State of 4 Kentucky at Large, hereby certify that the foregoing 5 Transcript of the Proceedings was taken at the time and place 6 stated in the caption; that the appearances were as set forth 7 in the caption; that prior to giving testimony the witnesses 8 were first duly sworn; that said testimony was taken down by 9 me in stenographic notes and thereafter reduced under my 10 supervision to the foregoing typewritten pages and that said 11 typewritten transcript is a true, accurate and complete record 12 of my stenographic notes so taken. 13 I further certify that I am not related by blood 14 or marriage to any of the parties hereto and that I have no 15 interest in the outcome of captioned case. 16 My commission as Notary Public expires 17 December 21, 1996. 18 Given under my hand this the__________day of 19 ______________________, 1994, at Louisville, Kentucky. 20 21 22 23 24 _____________________________ 25 NOTARY PUBLIC 171 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25