1 1 NO. 90-CI-06033 JEFFERSON CIRCUIT COURT DIVISION ONE 2 3 4 JOYCE FENTRESS, et al PLAINTIFFS 5 6 VS TRANSCRIPT_OF_THE_PROCEEDINGS __________ __ ___ ___________ 7 8 9 SHEA COMMUNICATIONS, et al DEFENDANTS 10 11 * * * 12 13 14 MONDAY, NOVEMBER 7, 1994 15 VOLUME XXX 16 17 * * * 18 19 20 21 _____________________________________________________________ REPORTER: JULIA K. McBRIDE 22 Coulter, Shay, McBride & Rice 1221 Starks Building 23 455 South Fourth Avenue Louisville, Kentucky 40202 24 (502) 582-1627 FAX: (502) 587-6299 25 2 1 I_N_D_E_X _ _ _ _ _ 2 WITNESS: JAMES_AABRAMS _______ _____ _______ 3 By Mr. Stopher........................................... 5 By Mr. Smith............................................. 77 4 By Mr. Stopher...........................................108 5 WITNESS: DIANAH_OEHMANN _______ ______ _______ 6 By Mr. Stopher...........................................110 By Ms. Zettler...........................................123 7 By Mr. Stopher...........................................124 8 * * * 9 Hearing in Chambers on Objections to McCall Deposition...125 10 * * * 11 WITNESS: TERRI_DATTILO _______ _____ _______ 12 By Mr. Stopher...........................................152 By Ms. Zettler...........................................178 13 WITNESS: JOHN_TINGLE _______ ____ ______ 14 By Mr. Stopher...........................................180 15 By Mr. Smith.............................................204 16 WITNESS: WANDA_HARRINGTON _______ _____ __________ 17 By Mr. Stopher...........................................218 By Mr. Smith.............................................234 18 WITNESS: JO_ANNE_SELF _______ __ ____ ____ 19 By Mr. Stopher...........................................241 20 By Ms. Zettler...........................................256 21 * * * 22 Hearing in Chambers......................................258 23 Reporter's Certificate...................................266 24 * * * 25 3 1 2 3 A_P_P_E_A_R_A_N_C_E_S _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 4 FOR THE PLAINTIFFS: 5 PAUL L. SMITH 6 Suite 745 Campbell Center II 7 8150 North Central Expressway Dallas, Texas 75206 8 NANCY ZETTLER 9 1405 West Norwell Lane Schaumburg, Illinois 60193 10 IRVIN D. FOLEY 11 Rubin, Hays & Foley 300 North, First Trust Centre 12 Louisville, Kentucky 40202 13 FOR THE DEFENDANT: 14 EDWARD H. STOPHER 15 Boehl, Stopher & Graves 2300 Providian Center 16 Louisville, Kentucky 40202 17 JOE C. FREEMAN, JR. LAWRENCE J. MYERS 18 Freeman & Hawkins 4000 One Peachtree Center 19 303 Peachtree Street, N.E. Atlanta, Georgia 30308 20 21 * * * 22 23 24 25 4 1 The Transcript of the Proceedings, taken before 2 The Honorable John Potter in the Multipurpose Courtroom, Old 3 Jail Office Building, Louisville, Kentucky, commencing on 4 Monday, November 7, 1994, at approximately 9:25 A.M., said 5 proceedings occurred as follows: 6 7 * * * 8 9 SHERIFF CECIL: All rise. The Honorable Judge 10 John Potter is now presiding. All jurors are present. Court 11 is now in session. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Please be seated. Good morning, 13 ladies and gentlemen of the jury. I'm glad to see 15 faces 14 this morning. 15 Ms. Morrison, have you had any trouble observing 16 the admonition about not letting anybody communicate with you 17 about this case? 18 JUROR MORRISON: No, sir. No problems at all. 19 JUDGE POTTER: Has anybody else had any 20 difficulty? 21 Mr. Stopher, do you want to call your first 22 witness? 23 MR. STOPHER: Yes, your Honor. Jim Aabrams. 24 JUDGE POTTER: Sir, would you step up here and 25 raise your right hand, please. 5 1 JAMES AABRAMS, after first being duly sworn, was 2 examined and testified as follows: 3 4 JUDGE POTTER: Would you walk around and have a 5 seat in the witness box, say your name loudly and clearly for 6 the jury and then spell your name for us, please. 7 MR. ABRAMS: My name is James Aabrams. 8 J-A-M-E-S, A-A-B-R-A-M-S. 9 JUDGE POTTER: And answer Mr. Stopher's 10 questions, Mr. Aabrams. 11 12 EXAMINATION ___________ 13 14 BY_MR._STOPHER: __ ___ ________ 15 Q. Mr. Aabrams, first of all, the microphone on the 16 table in front of you, the one that's lying down with the cord 17 attached to it, is the microphone that picks up in here; the 18 one on the stand relates to something else. So I'd ask you to 19 speak into not just the one in the microphone stand, but 20 really toward the one on the table, that's the one that will 21 pick up in here. 22 A. Okay. Thank you. 23 Q. Where do you live, sir? 24 A. 4920 Carver Court. It's in Jefferson County. 25 Q. And how old are you, sir? 6 1 A. Fifty-two. 2 Q. And by whom are you employed? 3 A. One Commonwealth Insurance at this time. 4 Q. And what do you do for One Commonwealth? 5 A. I'm in the security department there. 6 Q. Mr. Aabrams, let me go back, sir, to your 7 background. Would you tell us where you went to high school 8 and what you did from there, sir. 9 A. I went to Lincoln High School, Dallas, Texas. I 10 joined the military after high school. I retired from the 11 military in '79. I went to work for Norton's Children's 12 Hospital until '82. I returned to Texas in '82 and back to 13 Louisville in '86. At that time I went to work for Grady 14 Throneberry's security company; he sold it to Hall Security 15 and we went over to Hall Security. I worked at Standard 16 Gravure and WHAS for Hall Security from '86 until '91. 17 Q. You were in the military until 1979? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. When did you join the military? 20 A. '68. 21 Q. And what branch of the service were you in, sir? 22 A. The army. 23 Q. And while you were in the army, what was the 24 highest rank that you attained, sir? 25 A. Staff sergeant E-6. 7 1 Q. And did you see combat action, sir? 2 A. Yes, I did. 3 Q. Were you -- what branch or division of the army 4 were you in, sir? 5 A. I was in the 101st Airborne Division. 6 Q. Is that based in Kentucky, North Carolina? 7 A. Yes, it is. I was in the 101st Airborne 8 Division in Vietnam. 9 Q. Now, sir, while you were in the military did you 10 have any training in security? 11 A. Yes, I did. 12 Q. Can you briefly describe what that security 13 training was, sir? 14 A. Well, we had -- the army has a security course. 15 It's the same as military police course. 16 Q. And did you attend that course or take it, sir? 17 A. Yes, I did. 18 Q. And that's the same type training that the 19 military police have? 20 A. Yes, it is. 21 Q. Have you had any other training since then with 22 regard to security or security of an area? 23 A. Not since I've been out. 24 Q. Now, sir, after you got out of the army, if I 25 understand correctly, you came to Louisville and worked at 8 1 Norton Children's Hospital? 2 A. Yes, I did. 3 Q. Was that in connection with security? 4 A. Yes, it was. 5 Q. And was that the first time that you were 6 employed as a private security officer? 7 A. Yes, it is. 8 Q. Mr. Aabrams, to be employed as a security 9 officer, do you have to be licensed? 10 A. Not necessarily. 11 Q. In Kentucky do you have to be licensed? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Are you licensed in Kentucky or have you been? 14 A. Yes, I have. 15 Q. How are you licensed in Kentucky, sir? 16 A. I was trained at Norton -- a course at Norton's 17 Children's Hospital and I was licensed through them. 18 Q. Was this a course that was outside the hospital 19 or was it -- 20 A. Yes, it was. Louisville Police Department. 21 Q. And where physically did you go to attend that 22 course, sir? 23 A. Downstairs -- let's see. Most of the courses 24 were held in the conference rooms at Norton's Children's 25 Hospital. We used the weapon range in the police department. 9 1 Q. Who actually conducted those courses or taught 2 them? 3 A. A major from the police department. 4 Q. After attending that course, how did you get a 5 license and what license did you get? 6 A. I was issued a weapons license through a Ms. 7 Hennessey here in the city, and security license came through 8 Norton's Children's Hospital. 9 Q. What does the weapons license entitle you to do 10 or relate to? 11 A. The weapons license was only valid at Norton's 12 Children's Hospital. 13 Q. Did that allow you to carry a weapon there? 14 A. Yes, it did. 15 Q. And did you carry a weapon there? 16 A. Yes, I did. 17 Q. The other license that you got was a security 18 license? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And where did you get that, sir? 21 A. It came through Norton's Children's Hospital. 22 Q. And was that issued by Norton Children's 23 Hospital? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Now, let me go back again, sir. While you were 10 1 in the army, in addition to security did you have any training 2 in intelligence? 3 A. Yes, I did. 4 Q. Would you briefly describe that for us, sir? 5 A. I don't understand. 6 Q. Well, sir, how long did you work in 7 intelligence? 8 A. About nine years. 9 Q. And what sort of things did you do in connection 10 with your army service in intelligence? 11 A. Well, my army service in intelligence was more 12 reconnaissance. The MOS is only -- the job description is 13 called intelligence but the job is reconnaissance. 14 Q. And what briefly does that involve, sir? 15 A. That's kind of hard to explain, sir. 16 Q. Does it relate to combat? 17 A. In some instances, yes. 18 Q. All right. Now, sir, after you got this 19 training at Norton Children's Hospital in security, what did 20 you do with that training and where did you work? 21 A. I worked -- I was a security supervisor at 22 Norton's Children's Hospital. 23 Q. And about how long did you remain in that 24 position, sir? 25 A. Two and a half years. 11 1 Q. That takes us up to about 1982, I think you 2 said? 3 A. Around there, sir. 4 Q. And then you left Louisville? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And where did you go? 7 A. Dallas. 8 Q. Did you work in security in Dallas, Texas? 9 A. No, I didn't. 10 Q. Totally unrelated? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And then did you return to Louisville? 13 A. Yes, I did. 14 Q. And about when was that, sir? 15 A. '86. End of '85, first of '86. 16 Q. All right. And when you returned to Louisville 17 in 1985 or '86, what did you do, sir? 18 A. I went to work for Grady Throneberry's security 19 department. 20 Q. And had you known him before? 21 A. No, I hadn't. 22 Q. When you started to work with Mr. Throneberry, 23 did he give you any training, sir? 24 A. Not really. 25 Q. When you started to work for Mr. Throneberry, 12 1 did he send you someplace to get extra training? 2 A. No, he didn't. 3 Q. Where did you work for Mr. Throneberry? 4 A. Standard Gravure and WHAS. 5 Q. How did that work, sir? How did you work at 6 both places at the same time, or did you? 7 A. Both places were contracted together. 8 Q. And who was your actual employer? 9 A. Well, Grady Throneberry was my actual employer. 10 Q. Was he your boss, also, sir? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. How long, then, did you work at Standard Gravure 13 and WHAS? 14 A. About four and a half, five years. 15 Q. And during that period of time, sir, what was 16 your title or job? 17 A. Security supervisor. 18 Q. And were you security supervisor at Standard or 19 at WHAS or both? 20 A. Both. 21 Q. What was a security supervisor? 22 A. Well, actually, my job was to monitor the post; 23 ensure that the people were there that were supposed to be 24 there and all the equipment that was needed was on the post. 25 Q. Was that your job the whole four and a half 13 1 years and particularly including September 14, 1989? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. What hours would you work, Mr. Aabrams? 4 A. From eight to four. 5 Q. Eight A.M. to four P.M.? 6 A. To four P.M., yes. 7 Q. And during that period of time where were you 8 located? 9 A. Normally at the guard post inside the fence 10 between Standard Gravure and WHAS. 11 Q. Can you describe that guard post for us, sir? 12 A. The post sits inside the gate on Armory Street; 13 actually, it's the rear entrance to Channel 11 and the dock 14 entrance to Standard Gravure. 15 Q. Is it a building? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. How big is it, sir? 18 A. It's about a six by six. 19 Q. Six feet by six feet? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Is it connected to Standard Gravure or to WHAS? 22 A. Neither. 23 Q. Now, sir, with regard to that guard post, what's 24 inside or what was inside that guard post before September 14, 25 1989? 14 1 A. Let's see. There was two telephones, one to the 2 television station, one to Standard Gravure. There was a fire 3 alarm system with a microphone or radio system, and two TV 4 monitors. 5 Q. There were two telephones; right? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. What was the difference, if any, between the 8 two? 9 A. One was directly to Channel 11, the other was 10 Standard Gravure. 11 Q. Mr. Aabrams, we mentioned several times now WHAS 12 and Channel 11. They're the same; correct, sir? 13 A. Yes. Uh-huh. 14 Q. Where was WHAS or Channel 11 located? 15 A. At Chestnut and Armory. 16 Q. Where was it with regard to Standard Gravure? 17 A. It was -- Standard Gravure was directly behind 18 Channel 11 on Armory. 19 Q. If you were in the guard shack could you see 20 Channel 11 or WHAS? 21 A. I could see the rear of Channel 11 and the 22 loading dock of Standard Gravure. 23 Q. Now, sir, one telephone was to WHAS? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And the other one was to Standard Gravure? 15 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Could you also make outside calls? 3 A. Yes, you could. 4 Q. In other words, you could call the police or 5 call your home or wherever you wanted to call? 6 A. Yes. Uh-huh. 7 Q. Is that a yes, sir? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And when you say one is to Standard Gravure, how 10 did it work differently inside Standard Gravure? 11 A. You didn't need a prefix. All the numbers on 12 the phone were set up in four digits. 13 Q. Now, in addition to those two telephones there 14 was a fire alarm system? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Would you describe that for us, please? 17 A. It was an electrical system that -- I think it 18 was an ADT 3000, I'm not sure. 19 Q. If you were in the guard shack or the guard 20 post, what was there that was related to that fire alarm 21 system? 22 A. There was the microphone, control panel and the 23 fire panel. 24 Q. All right. Let me deal with those in reverse 25 order. What's the fire panel? 16 1 A. The fire panel indicates where the fire would be 2 in the building. 3 Q. How does that work, sir? 4 A. There's a panel with red lights indicating what 5 floors -- indicating the floors in the building and the areas. 6 In the event of a fire in one of the areas, the red light 7 would come on there. 8 Q. And then there was a microphone control? 9 A. Yes, it was. 10 Q. Tell us about that, please, sir. 11 A. Well, the microphone was simply to notify the 12 people in the building in case of fire. 13 Q. If the fire alarm came on, sir, and a red light 14 lighted up and you were in the guard post, what would you do? 15 A. I would notify the people in the building, 16 because when the fire alarm came on, the fire department would 17 automatically be notified. I would use the microphone to 18 alert all the people in the building to vacate. 19 Q. How did that microphone and that system work? 20 A. It had a toggle switch on it that you simply 21 throw the switch, the microphone was alive and there were 22 speakers in the building. 23 Q. And would you then speak into the microphone and 24 make an announcement? 25 A. Yes, I would. 17 1 Q. What sorts of things would you say over that 2 P.A. system? 3 A. They had a card that was in the box that was 4 repeated over the microphone in the event of a fire. 5 Q. Would you give any information about where the 6 fire was? 7 A. Not necessarily. 8 Q. Would you give any information as to how many 9 fires there were? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Where would that microphone and that 12 announcement be heard? 13 A. It would be heard all over the building. 14 Q. Would it be heard in the pressroom? 15 A. Yes, it would. 16 Q. In the third floor administrative offices? 17 A. Yes, it would. 18 Q. Now, in addition to the fire alarm system with 19 the microphone, you mentioned that there was a radio system? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. What radio system are we talking about? 22 A. This radio system was connected to Hall 23 Security's office and the other guards. 24 Q. Were these hand-held radios or was it a console? 25 A. No. It was a microphone base. 18 1 Q. So it had a console? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. You couldn't carry it with you like a 4 walkie-talkie? 5 A. No. 6 Q. And if you spoke into that it would be heard 7 where? 8 A. Other security departments. 9 Q. Other security what? 10 A. Departments. 11 Q. What other security departments were there? 12 A. Well, Hall had more than one post, Hall 13 Security. And you could get the other people from Hall 14 Security with this system, their office, their rovers in cars. 15 Q. Were any other Hall Security people on duty at 16 Standard Gravure on the morning of September 14, 1989, other 17 than you? 18 A. No, there wasn't. 19 Q. If you had used this radio system on September 20 14, 1989, would it have contacted any Hall Security people at 21 Standard Gravure? 22 A. No. 23 Q. The other Hall Security people that you're 24 talking about that would hear transmissions on this radio 25 system, where would they be? 19 1 A. Some on Berry Boulevard at the office. You had 2 a couple of other posts, I think one was South Central Bell, 3 one was -- you know, they were just posts scattered around the 4 city and the county. 5 Q. You also mentioned, sir, that there were two TV 6 or television monitors? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And tell us about those, please. 9 A. We had two television monitors. One was hooked 10 to the television station, the other to Standard Gravure. We 11 monitored the front lobby of Channel 11 and the rear lobby. 12 At one time we monitored the Sixth Street door of Standard 13 Gravure. 14 Q. All right. Now, let me begin with the monitor 15 with regard to 11 or Channel 11; right, sir? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. What did it monitor? 18 A. The front and rear lobbies. 19 Q. How could one monitor show both? 20 A. The picture fluctuated. It would change about 21 every five seconds. 22 Q. And on September 14, 1989, was it in operation? 23 A. Yes, it was. 24 Q. Now, there was another monitor that was 25 connected to Standard Gravure? 20 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. What did it show, sir? 3 A. September, nothing. The camera was down. 4 Q. I apologize. I didn't make the question very 5 clear. When you first started there in about 1986; is that 6 about right? 7 A. Uh-huh. Yes, sir. 8 Q. What did it show at that time? 9 A. The Sixth Street door. 10 Q. And did it show anything else other than that? 11 A. I think it showed the reception area. 12 Q. And that would be on one monitor? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And would it operate the same way the one did at 15 WHAS or Channel 11? 16 A. Yes, it did. 17 Q. And where is the reception area that you're 18 talking about, sir? 19 A. It's in Standard Gravure's second floor. 20 Q. The second-floor reception? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Didn't show the third-floor reception? 23 A. Well, maybe it was the third floor. There was 24 only one reception area there. 25 Q. All right. Now, sir, with regard to your work 21 1 there as a guard, you worked during the daytime; am I right? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Eight to four? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And when you were in the guard station, sir, 6 what duties did you have with regard to the loading dock area 7 and the fence and the gate? 8 A. From the guard post we checked the passes or the 9 identification of personnel coming on, leaving. We signed in 10 visitors, notified personnel in the building and we kept 11 traffic out of the rear parking lot. 12 Q. How would an employee or an ex-employee get in 13 through the Armory Place side and go in the loading dock? 14 A. The company had I.D. cards. 15 Q. And were the employees equipped with those I.D. 16 cards? 17 A. Yes, they were. 18 Q. If an employee or an ex-employee came up to the 19 Armory Place side, what would they do and what would you do? 20 A. If an ex-employee came up without an I.D. card, 21 you would find where he was going, who he was going to see, 22 you would call that person and have him come down to meet him. 23 Q. Was that fence controlled with a gate on Armory 24 Place? 25 A. Yes, it was. 22 1 Q. And was that -- how was that gate controlled? 2 A. Electrically from the guard shack. 3 Q. And you would be the person that would open and 4 close it? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Would that be done manually? 7 A. No. It was done electrically. 8 Q. All right. But -- in other words, but you had 9 to throw the switch yourself? 10 A. Yes. Uh-huh. 11 Q. Would that gate also admit people walking on 12 foot? 13 A. It was not supposed to. 14 Q. Was there a separate gate for people walking on 15 foot? 16 A. Yes. There was a pedestrian gate at the guard 17 shack. 18 Q. Was it locked or controlled electronically? 19 A. No, it's not. There is not a gate there. 20 Q. How close was the guard shack to that pedestrian 21 gate? 22 A. About two feet. 23 Q. So anybody coming in that gate would be within 24 two feet of the guard shack? 25 A. Yes, they would. 23 1 Q. Now, if a person came in who was an ex-employee, 2 they would approach the guard shack and what would you do 3 then, sir? 4 A. I would find out who they were coming to see or 5 what their business was. Then I would call that department 6 and notify someone that they were there. 7 Q. And then what would they do? 8 A. They would come down to meet them. 9 Q. How would you know an ex-employee from a current 10 employee? 11 A. We had a list of ex-employees. 12 Q. Where did you get that list? 13 A. From Standard Gravure's safety director. 14 Q. And who was that, sir? 15 A. Mr. Grady Throneberry. 16 Q. What about employees who were off on long-term 17 disability? 18 A. What about them, sir? 19 Q. Well, did they have I.D. badges? 20 A. Yes, they did. 21 Q. Were they allowed to come and go on the premises 22 as an employee was? 23 A. Yes, they were. 24 Q. They weren't on the list of employees that you 25 had to call and get permission? 24 1 A. No, they weren't. 2 Q. So you wouldn't know if an employee -- or would 3 you know if an employee was off on disability or not? 4 A. Probably I would. 5 Q. How would you know, sir? 6 A. After you work there awhile you know just about 7 every employee that comes in and goes out, and most employees 8 stop and talk to you at the gate. 9 Q. So it would just be kind of left up to you to 10 figure it out, if you could; is that right? 11 A. Yes. Yes. 12 Q. Were there a lot of people who were off on 13 disability in 1989, sir? 14 A. Not to my knowledge. 15 Q. Now, sir, I interrupted you and I apologize. 16 Your duties there in the guard shack included opening and 17 closing the gate for vehicles to come in and out? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And screening of employees and ex-employees and 20 I suppose visitors, as well? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. What else did you do there, sir? What else were 23 part of your job duties? 24 A. Well, we delivered the mail. We monitored the 25 traffic coming in and out, employee traffic. 25 1 Q. Anything else, sir? 2 A. Not as I remember. 3 Q. Did you have to make rounds during the daytime? 4 A. No, I didn't. 5 Q. Was there any other guard on duty at Standard 6 Gravure between eight A.M. and four P.M.? 7 A. No. 8 Q. You were the only one? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Now, sir, with regard to the -- to your work, 11 did you ever have any reports that you would generate? 12 A. Yes, I did. 13 Q. And tell us about those reports, if you would, 14 please. 15 A. I don't understand, tell you about the reports. 16 I mean, there might have been 500 of them, you know. Which 17 ones would you like to know about? 18 Q. I'd just like to know about the report procedure 19 in general, if you remember at all, sir. 20 A. What am I reporting, sir? 21 Q. Did you report things that happened? 22 A. Yes, we did. 23 Q. How physically would you do that, sir? 24 A. We had a form, an incident report form. If you 25 had an incident, you would make out that form, notify 26 1 Mr. Throneberry, and that form would go to him. 2 Q. And would you fill this out in your handwriting? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Would you physically deliver it to 5 Mr. Throneberry? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And I know you don't recall 500 of them and 8 perhaps not many of the 500 of them, sir, but what sorts of 9 things would you report? 10 A. We would report lights that were missing, locks 11 that didn't work, cameras that didn't work, any equipment that 12 malfunctioned or any problems we had with personnel. 13 Q. Now, sir, before September 14, 1989, did the 14 video camera at the Sixth Street entrance remain in operation? 15 A. No, it didn't. 16 Q. First of all, sir, let me back up one step. If 17 you were in the guard shack at Armory Place, as you've just 18 described for us, could you see the Sixth Street entrance? 19 A. No, you couldn't. 20 Q. Could you see any part of it? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Could you see anybody going into it or out of 23 it? 24 A. No. 25 Q. With regard to that camera at that entrance, 27 1 sir, you mentioned that it was not in operation on September 2 14th. Do you have any recollection as to how or when it 3 stopped working? 4 A. It was quite awhile before then, probably seven, 5 eight months. 6 Q. Do you know why it stopped working? 7 A. I have no idea. 8 Q. How did you first become aware that it was not 9 working? 10 A. I came in one morning, the screen was black and 11 I went around to the camera and it wasn't on, and I called 12 Mr. Throneberry. 13 Q. What do you recall about that conversation? 14 MR. SMITH: Objection. Hearsay, Your Honor. 15 JUDGE POTTER: Overruled. 16 A. Excuse me? 17 Q. You can answer it, sir. 18 A. What was the question, sir? 19 Q. What do you recall about calling Mr. Throneberry 20 when the camera wasn't working? 21 A. I called Mr. Throneberry and informed him that 22 the camera wasn't working. He said he would get on it, they 23 would get it fixed. 24 Q. Did they get it fixed? 25 A. No, they didn't. 28 1 Q. Did you ever in any way communicate that fact to 2 anybody? 3 A. Yes, I did. More than once we made out incident 4 reports on that camera, not only myself but some of the other 5 guards, and these were turned in to Mr. Throneberry. 6 Q. Who were some of the other guards? 7 A. I can't recall their names now. I'm sure they 8 have a list of them somewhere. 9 Q. But you yourself did that, sir? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. How many times do you think you did that? 12 A. Over six, eight months, probably fifteen, 13 twenty. 14 Q. And you would turn that in in writing to Mr. 15 Throneberry? 16 A. Yes, we would. 17 Q. Did you ever talk with him about it? 18 A. Yes, I did. 19 Q. How many times do you think you talked with him 20 about it? 21 A. Many. It would be hard to say. 22 Q. What sorts of things would you tell him about 23 that camera? 24 MR. SMITH: Objection. Hearsay, Your Honor. 25 JUDGE POTTER: Overruled. 29 1 A. We would simply -- I would simply explain to him 2 that the camera didn't work and we had no way of knowing who 3 was coming in or going out of the building on Sixth Street. 4 Q. What was his response? 5 A. That he would get it repaired. 6 Q. Was there ever any attempt, that you know of, to 7 repair it? 8 A. Not to my knowledge. 9 Q. Mr. Aabrams, with regard to the Sixth Street 10 entrance, was it ever locked? 11 A. Yes, it was. 12 Q. And when was it locked? 13 A. Normally it was locked after six o'clock and it 14 was opened at seven in the morning, I think. 15 Q. Locked at six P.M.? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And opened at when, sir? 18 A. Seven in the morning. 19 Q. Now, sir, with regard to that Sixth Street 20 entrance, let me show you a photograph. 21 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher, do you want to hand 22 out the whole stack at once? 23 MR. STOPHER: Well, Judge, I don't think I'm 24 going to use all of these with this Witness. 25 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. 30 1 Q. Let me show you this photograph which has been 2 marked as Defendant's Exhibit 3. Do you recognize this, sir? 3 A. This is the Sixth Street entrance to Standard 4 Gravure. 5 Q. Mr. Aabrams, in looking at this photograph, 6 would you tell us how many doors there actually are at this 7 entrance? 8 A. There are two, the outside grille door here and 9 there's a door directly inside. 10 Q. There's an outside what door? 11 A. This grille door that the gentleman has his hand 12 on. 13 Q. What sort of a door is that? 14 A. It's just a grille door. 15 Q. What's a grille door? 16 A. It's not a solid door. 17 Q. All right. In place of what would be the solid 18 part, what was actually there? 19 A. The grille. 20 Q. All right. Was it wood or metal? 21 A. Metal. 22 Q. And was it capable of being locked? 23 A. Yes, it was. 24 Q. And between six P.M. and seven A.M., was it 25 locked? 31 1 A. Yes, it was. 2 Q. Now, in addition to that door there was a second 3 door? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And where is it located, sir? 6 A. About three feet inside the grille door. 7 Q. And what type of a door was it, sir? 8 A. That was a solid door, solid metal door. 9 Q. And could it be locked, also? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And was it also locked at night? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Now, could that door be seen from your guard 14 station at all, sir? 15 A. No, it could not. 16 Q. Let me next show you a photograph and ask you if 17 you can identify this for us, please. It's been marked as 18 Defendant's Exhibit 15. Defendant's Exhibit 15, sir, do you 19 recognize that, Mr. Aabrams? 20 A. It appears to be inside the lobby of the first 21 floor on Sixth Street. 22 Q. And if you step through the two doors that we 23 just described and showed in the other photograph, how does 24 that relate to what's seen in this photograph, sir? 25 A. If you step through the two doors, on your right 32 1 would be an elevator and straight ahead was the stairs. 2 Q. So immediately to the right was an elevator? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And straight ahead was some stairs? 5 A. The stairwell through the door there. 6 Q. And what type of a door was that and how was it 7 operated, sir? 8 A. It was a heavy metal door and it was kept 9 locked. 10 Q. It was kept locked? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Was it kept locked at nighttime or was it kept 13 locked at other times? 14 A. Normally it was always locked from the inside. 15 Q. If I came into that lobby or you came into that 16 lobby without a key, could we go through that door and get 17 into the stairwell? 18 A. No, we couldn't. 19 Q. Was that true at all times or just at night? 20 A. I'm sure that was all day. 21 Q. All right. Now, you mentioned, sir, that 22 immediately to the right was an elevator. Let me show you a 23 copy of Defendant's Exhibit 16. Do you know what that 24 photograph shows, sir? 25 A. Yes. 33 1 Q. What does it depict? 2 A. This is the -- I'm sure this is the first-floor 3 elevator. 4 Q. Now, sir, with regard to that elevator, where is 5 it with relationship to the stairwell door? 6 A. The elevator is -- the stairwell door is to the 7 left of the elevator if you're facing the elevator. 8 Q. All right. Mr. Aabrams, in connection with that 9 elevator, where does it go? 10 A. The elevator would go to the mezzanine deck and 11 third-floor reception area. 12 Q. If we walked onto that elevator, could we get 13 off at two floors then? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. The mezzanine level? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And the third-floor reception area? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Now, sir, let me show you some photographs that 20 have been marked as Defendant's Exhibit 18, sir. And let me 21 ask you what this photograph shows. 22 A. I'm not sure. I think this is the mezzanine 23 level. 24 Q. I will represent to you, sir, that it's the 25 third-floor reception area. 34 1 A. All right, then. 2 Q. Do you have any disagreement with that, sir? 3 A. No, I don't. But normally on the third floor 4 there was furniture in the lobby. 5 Q. Yes, sir. I will represent to you that this 6 photograph was taken before the plant closed but after the 7 furniture had been removed. 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. Given that explanation, does this appear to be 10 an accurate photograph of the elevator entrance on the third 11 floor? 12 A. Yes, it is. 13 Q. Now, Mr. Aabrams, in looking at this photograph, 14 what is this big white area, sir? 15 A. Excuse me? 16 Q. What is this big white rectangle right in the 17 middle of the photograph? 18 A. This is the elevator. 19 Q. That's the elevator? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. What is there to the left of that elevator, sir? 22 A. The stairwell door. 23 Q. It's not shown in this photograph, is it, sir? 24 A. No, it's not. 25 Q. Where is that stairwell door? Can you see my 35 1 finger as I'm moving across here? 2 A. Yes. It's in the corner, sir. 3 Q. All the way over into this corner? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And is that the same stairwell that connects to 6 the first floor? 7 A. Yes, it is. 8 Q. Is that door open or locked? 9 A. That door is locked from the outside, too. 10 Q. In other words, if I'm standing in the reception 11 area if I walked over to that door, could I go in and walk 12 through it? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. So once you're in the stairwell, you can't come 15 into the reception area through that door? 16 A. I'm not sure. I don't think you could, though. 17 Q. Okay. All right, sir. Now, Mr. Aabrams, had 18 you ever discussed with Mr. Throneberry in addition to the 19 video camera any other security equipment with regard to this 20 street entrance? 21 A. Yes, I had. 22 Q. What else had you discussed with Mr. Throneberry 23 with regard to that entrance, sir? 24 A. The number of keys and the number of personnel 25 with keys to that door. 36 1 Q. What do you recall about that? 2 A. I sent him an incident report. He said that he 3 would take care of it. 4 Q. Did he ever do that? 5 A. Not to my knowledge. 6 Q. Did you ever discuss anything else other than 7 the keys and the locks on the Sixth Street door with Mr. 8 Throneberry? 9 A. I don't believe so. 10 Q. Was there ever a guard there? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Did you ever discuss guards with Mr. -- 13 A. We always discussed having a guard there. 14 Q. What do you recall about those discussions? 15 A. I believe his reply was the company didn't want 16 to pay the money to have another guard on Sixth Street. 17 Q. Mr. Aabrams, in connection with Standard Gravure 18 and its operations, was there ever anyone who was not supposed 19 to be permitted onto the Standard Gravure property? 20 A. Yes, there were. 21 Q. And how did that work, sir? 22 A. If it was someone that they didn't want on the 23 property, they would send a picture out and a description of 24 this person. We had a file at the security post that we kept 25 on people that had been terminated or weren't allowed on the 37 1 premises. 2 Q. And who would give you that information, sir? 3 A. Mr. Throneberry. 4 Q. And what did the information contain? 5 A. A description of the person, normally a picture 6 of the person, and a short notation of why the person weren't 7 allowed on the premises. 8 Q. What were you supposed to do or what was the 9 procedure if that person showed up? 10 A. Well, we had a lot -- it's according to who the 11 person was and why the person was terminated. In some 12 instances you would notify Mr. Throneberry, in other instances 13 you would notify the police department. 14 Q. How would you know the difference between the 15 two, sir? 16 A. We had a notation on the letter we'd get from 17 Mr. Throneberry. 18 Q. And it would tell you what to do? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Mr. Aabrams, if you were in the guard shack and 21 you had such a writing telling you not to let someone on the 22 premises, if they came to the Armory Place side where that 23 pedestrian gate was, what would you do? 24 A. I would stop them there. 25 Q. And would you then either -- do what the 38 1 instruction said, either call the police or call Mr. 2 Throneberry? 3 A. Yes. Yes, I would. 4 Q. But, Mr. Aabrams, what would happen if that 5 person went to the Sixth Street entrance? 6 A. Well, if he went to the Sixth Street entrance, 7 it would probably be simple to walk into the building and get 8 on the elevator. 9 Q. Would you know about it? 10 A. No, I wouldn't. 11 Q. Well, how could they bar people from the 12 premises if the Sixth Street -- if they could walk in the 13 Sixth Street entrance? 14 A. I have no idea. 15 Q. Did you ever discuss that with Mr. Throneberry? 16 A. Yes, we did. 17 Q. What do you recall about those conversations? 18 A. The same thing. The company did not want to put 19 out the money to have a guard there, and I don't know what he 20 intended doing about all the keys that was out to that door. 21 Q. Did you ever discuss with him electromagnetic 22 locks for the Sixth Street door? 23 A. Not to my knowledge. 24 Q. Did Mr. Throneberry, to your knowledge, or 25 anyone else, sir, ever study that Sixth Street door and what 39 1 sort of security equipment? 2 A. Yes, they did. 3 Q. Who did, sir? Before this incident on September 4 14, 1989, was that done? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Who did it? 7 A. Mr. Throneberry and some other people from 8 Standard Gravure. 9 Q. Did you ever see a written report on that study 10 on that entrance? 11 A. No, I didn't. 12 Q. Did you ever know what they recommended or found 13 or anything about that analysis? 14 A. No, I don't. 15 Q. Was anything ever done, sir, about that entrance 16 before September 14, 1989? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Nothing at all? 19 A. Nothing at all. 20 Q. Mr. Aabrams, with regard to the doors at Sixth 21 Street, did you ever discuss with Mr. Throneberry locking 22 those doors during the daytime? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. What do you recall about that? 25 A. I'm sure you couldn't lock the door during the 40 1 daytime because we had a number of employees that entered the 2 building from that side. 3 Q. Was there ever any discussion about locking the 4 door and having employees coming around to your side where the 5 guard station was? 6 A. Yes, it was. 7 Q. What was the answer or the response to that? 8 A. It was a fire hazard to have that door locked. 9 Q. Was it a fire hazard if the door could be opened 10 from the inside? 11 A. It shouldn't have been. 12 Q. In other words, if you could get out, that 13 eliminated the fire hazard? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Any other discussions about that Sixth Street 16 entrance and about locking it between yourself and anybody 17 else at Standard Gravure before this incident occurred? 18 A. Over the years we had a lot of discussions about 19 that door. I don't recall what was said or who the 20 discussions were with, but we did have a lot of discussions 21 about that entrance to the building. 22 Q. Were there ever any changes made? 23 A. None. 24 Q. Mr. Aabrams, did you discuss that entrance with 25 your bosses at Hall Security? 41 1 A. Yes, I did. 2 Q. Who was your boss at Hall Security? 3 A. I can't recall her name right now. Ms. Tamas. 4 Q. Ms. Tamas? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. I've also heard it pronounced Tamas? 7 A. I have always pronounced it Tamas. 8 Q. All right, sir. I'll use your method. What was 9 her position at Hall Security, sir? 10 A. I sent her incident reports pertaining to the 11 door and I think she took it up with Mr. Throneberry. 12 Q. Did you ever -- well, did you report the same or 13 similar things to her that you had to Mr. Throneberry? 14 A. Yes. The incident report is made, and three 15 copies; one would go to Mr. Throneberry, one would go in our 16 logbook and one would go to Hall Security. 17 Q. Mr. Aabrams, did anybody else ever discuss that 18 Sixth Street entrance with you, other than your boss, Ms. 19 Tamas, and Mr. Throneberry? 20 MR. SMITH: Again, Your Honor, that would be 21 hearsay. 22 JUDGE POTTER: Let me see you-all. 23 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 24 JUDGE POTTER: What's the answer? 25 MR. STOPHER: Well, the answer I think is no, 42 1 Your Honor. 2 JUDGE POTTER: Objection is overruled. 3 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 4 Q. Did you ever discuss that Sixth Street entrance, 5 sir, with anyone else other than Mr. Throneberry or Ms. Tamas? 6 A. Not as I recall, sir. 7 Q. Mr. Aabrams, while you were there during the 8 daytime, if I understand correctly, would there ever be any 9 reason why you would leave your guard shack and go to the 10 Sixth Street entrance? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Now, sir, let me talk with you about the public 13 address or the microphone system in the guard shack, sir. 14 You've described it for us earlier; correct, sir? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Mr. Aabrams, was that system to be able to make 17 an announcement in operation on September 14, 1989? 18 A. No, it was not. 19 Q. What do you recall about that P.A. system? 20 A. That a couple of days before, one of the 21 electricians from Standard Gravure was working on it and he 22 had took it apart, and they had took some parts of it away to 23 have something repaired with it. 24 Q. Did -- you said a couple of days before, sir? 25 A. Yes. 43 1 Q. What does that mean, exactly two days before 2 September 14? 3 A. I'm not sure. More than two, probably less than 4 five days. 5 Q. Do you recall, sir, giving your deposition in 6 this case? 7 A. Yes, I do. 8 Q. Let me refer you to a section of that 9 deposition, sir, and see if this refreshes your recollection 10 at all. You testified on September 3, 1992, almost exactly 11 two years ago, sir. Do you recall that occasion? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Let me direct your attention, sir, to Page 120, 14 Line 19. "Question: In September of 1989, did you have the 15 P.A. system in your guard station? 16 "Answer: Some parts of September. During this 17 incident, the fire alarm system, the P.A. system was being 18 worked on. The electricians from Standard Gravure had removed 19 the crystals to replace them or repair them, and the fire 20 alarm system would work but the P.A. system did not work. 21 "Question: When did that work begin? 22 "Answer: Probably around the 7th. 23 "Question: September the 7th? 24 "Answer: Yes." 25 Does that refresh your memory at all, sir? 44 1 A. Yes, it does. 2 Q. Is that testimony still accurate? 3 A. To the best of my knowledge. 4 Q. Now, sir, before this work began, was the 5 microphone system in good working order, as far as you knew? 6 A. Yes, it was. 7 Q. Had you made announcements on that system? 8 A. No, I hadn't. 9 Q. Prior to this work beginning, had anybody tested 10 it to see if it worked? 11 A. Oh, yes. We tested it. 12 Q. And did it work, as far as you knew, based on 13 those tests? 14 A. Yes, it did. 15 Q. When it was taken out, sir, was there any backup 16 system installed? 17 A. No. 18 Q. When it was taken out, was there an alternative 19 system to be able to make an announcement in the plant? 20 A. Other than going into the plant making a verbal 21 announcement, no. 22 Q. In other words, other than just walking into the 23 plant and speaking, there was no other way to make an 24 announcement? 25 A. No. There was an alarm that would go off in the 45 1 the plant in case of fire. 2 Q. In case of fire? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. But let me stick for a moment with the P.A. 5 system -- 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. -- and I'll come to the fire alarm system in 8 just a minute. But when this one was taken out, was there an 9 alternative system to allow you or anyone else to make an 10 announcement? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Mr. Aabrams, was there a system in place on 13 September 14 that you could pick up a telephone and make a 14 P.A. announcement in the plant? 15 A. I believe there -- I had heard about it; I had 16 never used one. 17 Q. Did anybody ever tell you how to do a telephone 18 announcement? 19 A. No. No. 20 Q. Did anybody ever tell you for sure that there 21 was such a thing on September 14, 1989? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Did you ever get any written documents that told 24 you that there was such a system or how to work it? 25 A. No. 46 1 Q. Mr. Aabrams, when that system was taken out of 2 your guard shack, did you ever discuss that with Grady 3 Throneberry? 4 A. He was there when we were working on it. 5 Q. He was there? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Did you ask him what you were supposed to do if 8 there was an emergency and you needed to make an announcement? 9 A. No, I didn't. 10 Q. Did you ask him when it was going to be replaced 11 or repaired? 12 A. I'm sure I did. 13 Q. Do you recall anything he told you about what to 14 do in the event of an emergency while that system didn't work? 15 A. No, I don't. 16 Q. Now, sir, you mentioned to me just a moment ago 17 and I cut you off about the fire alarm system. First of all, 18 how could the fire alarm system -- could the fire alarm system 19 be activated or put into effect manually? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Would you tell the jury how that could be done. 22 A. The fire alarm system went off automatically in 23 the building if there was a fire in the building. 24 Q. Was there a way of setting it off without it 25 being automatic? 47 1 A. Yes, there was. 2 Q. And how could you do that? 3 A. At the time I couldn't set it off -- on the 4 14th, I couldn't set it off. It was being repaired. 5 Q. The fire alarm system was being repaired, also? 6 A. This is all one system. 7 Q. Okay. 8 A. There was no way I could set it off from the 9 guard shack, but in the event of a fire there would have been 10 an alarm in the building. 11 Q. All right, sir. Now, let me get this straight. 12 Was the fire alarm system operational on September 14th? 13 A. In the guard shack, no. 14 Q. So it had been taken out, also? 15 A. Sir, there is only one system. 16 Q. Okay. 17 A. This microphone and the fire alarm is all one 18 system. Now, once he took the crystals out of this fire alarm 19 system, it does not work from the guard shack. In the event 20 of a fire, you would still get an alarm in the building. 21 Q. Okay. If a fire went off there would be some 22 kind of sensors that would sense heat? 23 A. Yes. There would be an alarm in the building. 24 Q. All right. But from the guard shack you 25 couldn't set off the fire alarm system -- 48 1 A. No. 2 Q. -- on September 14? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Because it had been dismantled and the crystals 5 taken out along with the microphone system? 6 MR. SMITH: Your Honor, we're going to object to 7 the continuing leading by Counsel. 8 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Sustained. 9 Q. Was it operational so that you could set off the 10 fire alarm system on September 14th? 11 A. No. No. 12 Q. Mr. Aabrams, with regard to the fire alarm 13 system, were there any pull stations? 14 A. In the building? 15 Q. Yes, sir. 16 A. Yes, there were. 17 Q. And how did they work and where were they 18 generally located, sir? 19 A. They were on all the floors. It was a small red 20 box, break the glass, pull the handle, it sets off the alarm. 21 Q. And what sort of alarm was it? 22 A. A fire alarm. It was a siren. 23 Q. And when that alarm went off, were there 24 instructions as to what people were to do? 25 A. Yes, there were. 49 1 Q. And what were they? 2 A. People were to exit the building across the 3 street. At that time there was a parking lot across Armory 4 Street. 5 Q. Now, Mr. Aabrams, before September 14, 1989, had 6 there been a security analysis of the whole security system at 7 Standard Gravure and all the entrances and the exits and that 8 sort of thing? 9 A. I have no idea. 10 Q. Did you ever hear of anything like that, sir? 11 A. No, I didn't. 12 Q. Did you ever see anything like that being done? 13 A. No, I didn't. 14 Q. Did you ever see any such reports? 15 MR. SMITH: Your Honor, we object to that. He's 16 already said he didn't know of the existence of that report. 17 It's leading, Your Honor. 18 JUDGE POTTER: Overruled. 19 Q. Did you ever have any information of any 20 security analysis of any sort? 21 MR. SMITH: Same objection, Your Honor. 22 JUDGE POTTER: Overruled. 23 A. No, I didn't. 24 Q. Mr. Aabrams, before September 14th of 1989, did 25 you ever have any information that there had been any threat 50 1 analysis made? 2 A. No, I hadn't. 3 Q. Before September 14, 1989, sir, did you know who 4 Joseph Wesbecker was? 5 A. No, I didn't. 6 Q. Had it ever been reported to you that 7 Mr. Wesbecker had made threats against the company or anyone 8 that worked there? 9 A. No. 10 Q. No information at all? 11 A. We had no information at all. 12 Q. Prior to September 14, 1989, had you ever 13 received any information about Joseph Wesbecker from Grady 14 Throneberry? 15 A. I'm sure I hadn't. 16 Q. You're sure what, sir? 17 A. That I had not. I had nothing in writing. 18 Q. Had you ever been given anything verbally or 19 orally by Mr. Throneberry? 20 A. Not as I recall. 21 Q. Mr. Aabrams, with regard to threats at Standard 22 Gravure, did you have any instructions as to what to do about 23 threats? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. What were those instructions? 51 1 A. It was according to who and what the threat was. 2 Q. And what were the instructions according to who 3 and what the threat was? 4 A. In some cases you would notify the police, in 5 other cases you would notify Mr. Throneberry. If they sent 6 down a letter and a picture of the person, you know, you would 7 always be watching for this person. 8 Q. And in connection with those sorts of letters, 9 would you keep them, sir? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And where would you keep them? 12 A. We had a file for them. 13 Q. And where did you keep the file? 14 A. The file was kept in the guard shack. 15 Q. Did you ever get such a letter about Joseph 16 Wesbecker? 17 A. No, we didn't. 18 Q. Mr. Aabrams, did you ever have any instructions 19 as to what you were to do if you heard a threat being made? 20 A. If I heard a threat being made? 21 Q. Yes, sir. 22 A. No. I never got any instructions, but it was 23 pretty clear what I would do if I had heard a threat being 24 made. 25 Q. And what would you have done, sir? 52 1 A. I would have reported this to Mr. Throneberry. 2 Q. Now, Mr. Aabrams, with regard to 3 Mr. Throneberry, did he ever talk with you individually about 4 morale and the attitude of the employees at Standard Gravure 5 before September 14, 1989? 6 MR. SMITH: Your Honor, we'd object to that as 7 being hearsay. 8 JUDGE POTTER: Overruled. 9 A. Yes, he did. 10 Q. What do you recall about those discussions, sir? 11 MR. SMITH: Same objection, Your Honor. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Overruled. 13 A. It was never -- I don't think it was never -- he 14 never said anything about a threat. I'm sure that the 15 discussion -- most of the discussions we had about morale 16 being low, it was due to a couple of times they had layoffs, 17 you know, and things of this sort. 18 Q. Were these discussions matters where he would 19 give you information about morale or would you give him 20 information about morale? 21 A. He was giving me information. 22 Q. And what was he asking you to do with that 23 information? 24 A. That's hard to explain. It's according to when 25 it was and what was happening at the time. You know, there 53 1 were times that they had layoffs there and he would bring in 2 three or four extra guards in the building just for such 3 situations as that. 4 Q. Who were those three or four extra guards? 5 A. They were from Hall Security, sir. I have no 6 idea their names. 7 Q. Where would they be and what would they do? 8 A. They would be posted at points in the building 9 and the parking lot. 10 Q. And who would place them at various places? 11 A. Mr. Throneberry. 12 MR. STOPHER: May we approach the bench a 13 minute, Your Honor? 14 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 15 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, this is a good point 16 to break. I have another topic that will take some time that 17 I'd prefer not to break in the middle of it, if it's agreeable 18 with the Court. 19 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. 20 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 21 JUDGE POTTER: Ladies and gentlemen, we'll take 22 the morning recess. As I've mentioned to you-all before, do 23 not permit anybody to speak to or communicate with you in 24 connection with this trial. Do not discuss it among 25 yourselves and do not form or express opinions about it. 54 1 We'll take a 15-minute recess. 2 (RECESS; BENCH DISCUSSION) 3 JUDGE POTTER: My sheriff reports that Ms. 4 Morrison states she has a sick son and she took him to the 5 doctor and he was given an antibiotic, and that will not 6 affect her. 7 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 8 SHERIFF CECIL: The jury is now entering. All 9 jurors are present. Court is back in session. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Please be seated. Mr. Aabrams, 11 I'll remind you you're still under oath, sir. 12 Mr. Stopher. 13 Q. Mr. Aabrams, just a couple other questions about 14 equipment. You told us earlier about the camera at the Sixth 15 Street entrance, sir. 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And you described a TV monitor in the guard 18 shack where you were located; correct, sir? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. Was there any other monitor connected up to that 21 camera at the Sixth Street entrance at any time, sir? 22 A. No, it was not. 23 Q. Was there ever a monitor on the receptionist's 24 desk? 25 A. Yes. That's on the same monitor. 55 1 Q. All right. If someone was sitting at the 2 receptionist's desk on the third floor when the camera was 3 operating, what did they have, sir? 4 A. You had a view of the third floor, the reception 5 area. 6 Q. All right. And did you have a view of the Sixth 7 Street lobby entrance on that monitor, as well? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. In other words, the receptionist had a monitor 10 on her desk when it was working that showed what? 11 A. The Sixth Street entrance. 12 Q. Now, sir, when you worked there, sir, prior to 13 September 14, 1989, did employees sometimes report security 14 concerns to you? 15 A. Yes, they did. 16 Q. How would they do that? 17 A. Normally if it was something that -- if it was 18 an emergency, they would call on the phone. If it was 19 something in passing, they would either report it to one of us 20 on their way in or on their way out of the building. 21 Q. And what would you do with those employee 22 reports to you? 23 A. We would put it on -- make out an incident 24 report, keep one copy in the guard shack and turn one in to 25 Mr. Throneberry. 56 1 Q. Mr. Aabrams, prior to September 14, 1989, did 2 any foremen or supervisors or any employees report to you any 3 threats of Joseph Wesbecker? 4 A. Not to my knowledge. 5 Q. Mr. Aabrams, at the -- prior to the shootings on 6 September 14, 1989, were you armed while you were on duty, 7 sir? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Were any of the other Hall Security guards 10 armed? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Was Mr. Throneberry armed? 13 A. I have no idea. 14 Q. Did you ever know him to be armed? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And how did you become aware of that? 17 A. Well, observation. Now and then you could see 18 he was carrying a firearm. 19 Q. And would that be on the Standard Gravure 20 premises or someplace else? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. On the premises or off? 23 A. On the premises. 24 Q. Mr. Aabrams, let me show you, sir, a document 25 that's previously been marked and admitted as Defendant's 57 1 Exhibit 154, which is an agreement, sir, between Hall Security 2 Service and Standard Gravure. Do you see that up at the top, 3 sir? 4 A. Yes, I do. 5 Q. Mr. Aabrams, on September 14, 1989, were you an 6 employee of Hall Security Company? 7 A. Yes, I was. 8 Q. Let me direct your attention, Mr. Aabrams, to 9 the paragraph numbered two. Do you see that number there, 10 sir? 11 A. Yes, I do. 12 Q. It says, "The guards furnished by Hall shall 13 protect the property of Standard against any act of robbery, 14 burglary, destruction, arson, vandalism or trespass and 15 perform other duties as assigned by Standard and Hall." Do 16 you see that language, sir? 17 A. Yes, I do. 18 Q. Mr. Aabrams, given the situation that existed 19 there on September 14, 1989, particularly with regard to the 20 Sixth Street entrance, were you able to do that? 21 A. No, I was not. 22 MR. SMITH: Your Honor, may we approach? 23 Q. Why not, sir? 24 JUDGE POTTER: Wait just a second, Mr. Stopher. 25 MR. STOPHER: All right. 58 1 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 2 MR. SMITH: The question calls for him to form 3 an opinion as to whether or not the contract was actually 4 performed or not, and there's no evidence that this Witness is 5 able to do that. The contract speaks for itself; whether or 6 not there was a breach of the contract would be an issue for 7 the jury to decide. 8 MR. STOPHER: Judge, I didn't ask him anything 9 about a breach of the contract; I just simply asked him if he 10 could protect the property of Standard Gravure against 11 destruction, given the equipment that he had. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Sustain the objection because, I 13 mean, he told what the situation was and, you know, the 14 factual thing is for the jury to decide. The implications of 15 the question maybe he didn't understand. 16 MR. SMITH: Can we get an instruction for the 17 jury to disregard the answer? 18 MR. STOPHER: Well, I only had one more question 19 on this topic. 20 MR. SMITH: What's your other question? 21 MR. STOPHER: I just wanted to know if he could 22 control the access to the property. 23 JUDGE POTTER: That's the same objection. His 24 conclusion of whether or not he was capable of protecting 25 Standard Gravure is based on what, I don't know. 59 1 MR. SMITH: Can we have an instruction, Your 2 Honor? He answered the question before I could get the 3 objection lodged. 4 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 5 Q. Mr. Aabrams, let me direct your attention, sir, 6 to September 14, 1989, sir. Would you tell us when you came 7 on duty that day, sir? 8 A. I came on at eight A.M. 9 Q. And where did you report at eight A.M., sir? 10 A. To the guard post. 11 Q. And when you reported to the guard post did you 12 relieve someone else, sir? 13 A. Yes, I did. 14 Q. Did that individual leave prior to these events 15 on September 14, 1989? 16 A. Yes, he did. 17 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Aabrams, could I ask you not 18 to finger the piece of newspaper underneath the microphone 19 because you may not be able to hear it, but it makes a noise. 20 And if you pull it toward you, sir, that will help. That 21 little brown thing, just pull it. There we go. Thank you. 22 Q. At shortly after 8:00, sir, was there anyone 23 else in the guard shack other than yourself? 24 A. No. 25 Q. And what was the first thing that you did after 60 1 arriving in the guard shack at eight A.M.? 2 A. I called Hall Security to notify them that I was 3 on post. 4 Q. Then what did you do, sir? 5 A. I made out my daily report. 6 Q. Then what did you do? 7 A. In the middle of making out my daily report is 8 when I received a call from the building. 9 Q. Did you make a delivery to Mr. Throneberry's 10 office that morning? 11 A. Yes, I did. 12 Q. All right. Now, let me go back, then. You made 13 out your daily report. Then what did you do? 14 A. Well, normally upon arriving at work all the 15 paperwork from the night before goes to Mr. Throneberry's 16 office. I normally took that to Mr. Throneberry's office 17 before the guard that I relieved left. 18 Q. Oh, okay, sir. So he stayed -- 19 A. He's there until I return from -- I take the 20 mail and the night's paperwork to Mr. Throneberry's office. 21 Q. You take the mail and the paperwork to Mr. 22 Throneberry's office? 23 A. Yes. The mail to the receptionist's desk. 24 Q. All right. And then the other guard remains in 25 the shack until you get back? 61 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. About what time do you get back to the guard 3 shack after making those deliveries, sir? 4 A. Normally about eight or a couple minutes till. 5 Q. And then the other guard leaves? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And what do you do? 8 A. That's when I'll call Hall or notify them that 9 I'm there and start my daily report. 10 Q. What happened then, sir? 11 A. Excuse me? 12 Q. What happened after that, sir? 13 A. That's when I received a call from the building. 14 Q. And what call did you receive? 15 A. One of the female employees called and said 16 she'd just come through the Sixth Street entrance and a 17 gentleman came in the building behind her and he appeared to 18 have a rifle in his hand. 19 Q. Did she tell you anything else? 20 A. That's all. 21 Q. Did she tell you who she was? 22 A. No, she didn't. 23 Q. Did she tell you where she was calling from? 24 A. No, she didn't. 25 Q. What did you do then, sir? 62 1 A. I thanked her. I called 911. I got the police 2 on the telephone and told them that we had a suspected weapon 3 in the building. 4 Q. Did you tell them anything else, sir? 5 A. No, I didn't. I gave them the address of the 6 building. 7 Q. Did you use the P.A. microphone then, sir? 8 A. No, I didn't. 9 Q. Why not? 10 A. Why would I use the P.A. microphone, sir? 11 Q. Was it working? 12 A. That's not in my written instructions. 13 Q. It wasn't in your written instructions? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Was it working or not then, sir? 16 A. No, it wasn't. 17 Q. What did you do then, sir? 18 A. At that time I went into the building, went up 19 the stairwell, across the mezzanine deck, up the stairwell to 20 the reception office. 21 Q. All right. Let me interrupt you for just a 22 second, and let me ask you, if you would, Mr. Aabrams, to step 23 down here and look at this drawing with me. And let me try to 24 get you oriented. I don't know how the glare is off of this. 25 Let me first of all tell you, sir, that this is Sixth Street. 63 1 Okay, sir? 2 A. (Nods head affirmatively). 3 Q. And this is the loading dock area and this is 4 Armory Place over here. 5 A. All right. 6 Q. All right. Would you indicate by pointing 7 approximately where the guard shack was, sir? 8 A. The guard shack would be about in this area. 9 Q. All right. Would it be inside? 10 A. It would be inside the fence, the guard shack is 11 inside this fence. There's another fence that runs along this 12 side of the building that separates Standard Gravure and WHAS. 13 We would go from the guard shack into this door on the loading 14 dock. There's a stairwell there. Take the stairwell up one 15 flight is the mezzanine level. Go straight across the 16 mezzanine into the stairwell, the Sixth Street stairwell, and 17 it brings you out at the door of the reception area. 18 Q. Now, sir, let me ask you to start at 19 approximately this area where the guard station was located. 20 And after you got the call would you show us where you went? 21 A. From the guard shack to the steps here, across 22 the deck right inside the door is another stairwell, that 23 stairwell up one flight to the mezzanine deck, walk across the 24 mezzanine deck to the Sixth Street stairwell. 25 Q. All right. Do you see this entrance here, sir? 64 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And is this the stairwell we're talking about? 3 A. Yes. This stairwell goes up to the third floor 4 to the reception area. It crosses the mezzanine deck, the 5 mezzanine between the first and the third floor. 6 Q. What would normally be a second floor? Let me 7 show you a drawing of that just to be absolutely clear. Now, 8 is this -- does this look like the mezzanine level just above 9 the area that we just talked about? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And is this the stairwell that you came up, sir? 12 A. Yes. That's the Sixth Street stairwell. 13 Q. And then if I understand this drawing correctly, 14 sir -- well, let me ask you first of all about this building. 15 Is it easy to get around in this building, sir? 16 A. No, it's not. No, it's not. 17 Q. What's difficult about it? 18 A. Once you're inside the building, the stairwells, 19 it's just not an easy building to maneuver in. 20 Q. Now, if I understand correctly, you go across 21 the mezzanine level? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And enter the stairwell up to the -- from the 24 second floor to the third floor; correct? 25 A. Yes. 65 1 Q. And then let me show you this drawing, sir. Let 2 me get you oriented again. This is the third-floor reception 3 area. And it shows the set of steps, and this X is to 4 represent an elevator. Does that look accurate to you, sir? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And then the reception area has a door? 7 A. Yes. To the -- the reception area has a door to 8 the stairwell. 9 Q. All right. There's a door there? 10 A. Right. This would be the opening from the 11 hallway into the reception area. 12 Q. And the third-floor administrative offices are 13 locateded down these various hallways? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. All right, sir. Now, you leave the guard shack, 16 come up the set of steps, cut across the mezzanine -- 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. -- come up another flight of steps? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And when you get to this area, sir, is there a 21 door there? 22 A. Yes, it is. 23 Q. And what do you do then, sir? 24 A. I open the door and go into the reception area. 25 Q. You opened that door? 66 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And when you open the door, what do you see or 3 hear? 4 A. When I opened the door, Mr. Wesbecker is 5 standing in the reception area. 6 Q. Where is he, sir? 7 A. He's standing right outside the elevator here at 8 the reception area. 9 Q. And when you opened that door, do you actually 10 see him? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. What is he doing? 13 A. I saw the side of him. He's pointing his gun. 14 He's firing then. I couldn't see what he was shooting at 15 because the door here comes open in, I'm pretty sure. 16 Q. Could you see the -- around the corner to the 17 receptionist's area? 18 A. Well, from the door here you don't have to look 19 around the corner to the reception. The receptionist's desk 20 runs along the right side from the door, the right side of the 21 hall. 22 Q. Now, when you open the door and you look, is he 23 standing in the elevator or outside the elevator? 24 A. He's outside the elevator. 25 Q. And did you recognize what kind of a weapon he 67 1 had, sir? 2 A. Yes, I did. 3 Q. And what did you recognize it as? 4 A. AK-47. 5 Q. Did you see him fire that weapon, sir? 6 A. Yes. When I opened the door he was firing the 7 weapon. 8 Q. And how was he holding the weapon, sir, when you 9 saw him? 10 A. He was holding it at waist level. 11 Q. He didn't have it up to his shoulder? 12 A. No, he didn't. 13 Q. Did you see anything else with him? Did he have 14 anything else on him or with him? 15 A. I think he had a bag. But this was a split 16 second; I didn't stay in the door. 17 Q. Do you recall, sir, anything about that bag or 18 where it was? 19 A. No, I didn't. 20 Q. Now, you just saw him for a split second; am I 21 right? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Do you recall how many shots you saw him fire? 24 A. No, I don't. 25 Q. Did you observe him and see what he looked like 68 1 in that split second? 2 A. Yes, I think I could identify him. 3 Q. You could identify him? Did you notice anything 4 about him that was out of the ordinary, sir? 5 A. No, I didn't. 6 Q. Did you recognize him when you saw him there? 7 A. I didn't know him before then. 8 Q. So you didn't attach a name to his face, sir? 9 A. No. No, I didn't. 10 Q. Did he look at you? 11 A. That would be hard to say. 12 Q. Do you have any recollection of making any eye 13 contact with him, sir? 14 A. No, I don't. 15 Q. Were you in uniform or out of uniform? 16 A. I was in uniform. 17 Q. Now, when you saw him, sir, and saw him fire, 18 what did you do then? 19 A. I closed the door, I went back down the 20 stairwell, across the mezzanine deck, and when I got to the 21 dock the police were there. The police asked me to -- 22 Q. Back to the loading dock? 23 A. Yes. The police asked me to get the people off 24 the stairwells and out of the parking lots and allow no one 25 into the building. 69 1 Q. Do you recall how you closed that door at that 2 stairwell, sir? 3 A. How did I close it? 4 Q. Yes, sir. Did you close it softly or hard? 5 A. I slammed it. 6 Q. You slammed it? 7 A. Yeah, I did. 8 Q. Did you slam it in such a manner that it made an 9 audible noise? 10 A. Yes. It should have. It sure did. 11 Q. And then you went back down these stairs to the 12 mezzanine? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Did Mr. Wesbecker follow you? 15 A. No. No. 16 Q. Did the gunman follow you, sir? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Did the gunman open that door? 19 A. I have no idea. 20 Q. Did the gunman fire into that stairwell after 21 you? 22 A. I don't think so. 23 Q. You have no recollection of hearing any shots 24 fired down that stairwell? 25 A. No, I don't. 70 1 Q. All right, sir. You can resume your seat, sir. 2 Mr. Aabrams, you left the third floor, came back down out to 3 the loading dock; correct, sir? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Did you attempt to notify people to evacuate the 6 building as you went along on the floors, sir? 7 A. Yes, I did. 8 Q. Let's take, for example, you went down the 9 stairwell, and the first floor you got to would have been the 10 mezzanine floor? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And did you walk across that long expanse of the 13 mezzanine floor, sir? 14 A. Yes, I did. 15 Q. Were there people working there? 16 A. If I recall, I think there was probably two. 17 Q. What did you tell them, sir? 18 A. That there was a gentleman on the third floor 19 firing a weapon. 20 Q. Did you tell them they should get out of the 21 building? 22 A. They left the building. 23 Q. Did you run into any other people in the 24 building? 25 A. No, I didn't. 71 1 Q. You then went down the far set of stairs near 2 the loading dock on Armory Place? 3 A. Yes, I did. 4 Q. And were there people there on the loading dock 5 when you got there? 6 A. Yes. There were people coming to work. 7 Q. And what did you tell them? 8 A. We sent those people to the rear of Channel 11. 9 Q. Did you go back to the guard shack? 10 A. Yes, I did. 11 Q. And when you got back to the guard shack what 12 did you do? 13 A. The police had asked me to stop the traffic and 14 personnel coming to work. 15 Q. And did you do that from the guard shack? 16 A. Yes, I did. 17 Q. How did you do it from the guard shack? 18 A. The gates are closed, so the only way in is the 19 pedestrian gate right in front of the door of the guard shack. 20 Q. Did you have the ability when you were there in 21 the guard shack, sir, to make an announcement about 22 evacuation? 23 A. No, I didn't. 24 Q. Mr. Aabrams, when you were there in the guard 25 shack, did you have the ability to activate or sound the fire 72 1 alarm? 2 A. From the guard post? 3 Q. Yes, sir. 4 A. No, I didn't. 5 Q. Did not? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Did you make any telephone calls after you got 8 back to the guard shack? 9 A. Yes, I did. 10 Q. Who did you call? 11 A. I called Grady Throneberry a few times until we 12 got in touch with him. I called Hall Security. 13 Q. How did you attempt to call Mr. Throneberry? 14 A. I called him on his car phone. I called his 15 beeper number and his home number. 16 Q. Did you get any response from him at any of 17 those places? 18 A. No, I didn't. 19 Q. Did you try any other means of communicating 20 with him? 21 A. Such as, sir? Those are the only ways I had to 22 contact him. 23 Q. Did you have a walkie-talkie or a radio to 24 contact him? 25 A. Yes, we did, but he was far out of range for 73 1 radio. 2 Q. So after you called Mr. Throneberry what did you 3 do? 4 A. After I called him, I stepped outside to 5 instruct people not to go onto the property. Mr. Throneberry 6 showed up probably five minutes later. 7 Q. Did you attempt to call Mr. Shea or to call 8 Mr. McCall? 9 A. Yes, I did, on the instructions of 10 Mr. Throneberry. 11 Q. What did he ask you to do, sir? 12 A. He asked me to call Mr. Shea's house to see if 13 he was home. He was not at home. 14 Q. You called him from the guard shack? 15 A. Yes, I did. 16 Q. And what about Mr. McCall? 17 A. I didn't call Mr. McCall. I think Grady 18 Throneberry took care of that. 19 Q. At that time, sir, did you know who the gunman 20 was? 21 A. No, I didn't. 22 Q. Did Mr. Throneberry ask you for any description? 23 A. No. I'm sure Mr. Throneberry knew who he was. 24 Q. How do you say that you're sure Mr. Throneberry 25 knew who he was at that time? 74 1 A. He had been in -- Mr. Throneberry had talked to 2 some of the people coming out of the building. 3 Q. Did you hear Mr. Throneberry refer to him by 4 name? 5 A. No, I didn't. 6 Q. Now, sir, when you were back on the loading 7 dock, sir, when you first got back down there, did you ever 8 hear any shots fired inside the building? 9 A. Yes, you could. 10 Q. And could you tell where those shots were coming 11 from? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Mr. Aabrams, how long did you continue to hear 14 those shots being fired after you were back out on the loading 15 dock? 16 A. Probably 30 to 45 seconds. 17 Q. Did you, Mr. Aabrams, give a description of the 18 gunman to the police? 19 A. No, I didn't. 20 Q. Mr. Aabrams, if the P.A. system, the microphone, 21 had been operational on September 14, 1989, would you have 22 used it? 23 A. I'm sure I would have. 24 Q. Can you tell us at what point you would have 25 used that P.A. system? 75 1 A. No, I can't, because it would have probably been 2 when I came back out of the building. 3 Q. Let me refer you, sir, to your deposition on 4 September 4, 1992, Page 28, Line 8. "Question: There was a 5 lot of talk yesterday about a P.A. system in the guard shack, 6 and I believe it was your testimony that the P.A. system was 7 not operational on the day of the shooting; is that correct? 8 "Answer: To my knowledge it wasn't. 9 "Question: The way you understand your duties 10 and the duties you had, your interpretation of your duties in 11 September 14 of 1989, had that P.A. system been operative 12 would you have used the P.A. system? 13 "Answer: Yes, I probably would have. 14 "Question: In other words, when you got a call 15 that there was somebody in the building with a gun, would you 16 have used it at that point? 17 "Answer: Normally I would have, yes." 18 Do you recall giving that testimony, sir? 19 A. Yes, I do. 20 Q. Is that testimony still accurate? 21 A. I think you have to look at the situation. The 22 lady called, she said, "I saw a gentleman come through the 23 Sixth Street door, it appeared he had a gun in his hand." 24 Now, there is plenty of equipment at Standard Gravure that's 25 long and not bulky. I called the police within ten seconds of 76 1 getting off the phone with her, but I still wanted to assure 2 myself that it was a gun before I made an announcement or 3 something like that and had everybody in the building standing 4 in the parking lot. Now, that system is actually hooked to 5 the fire alarm, and by the time I got back to the parking lot 6 the police were there and everybody in the building knew that 7 there was some shooting going on in the building. 8 Q. Let me go on and read this answer completely, 9 this series of questions and answers, going back again to give 10 you the context of Page 28, Line 18: "In other words, when 11 you got a call that there was somebody in the building with a 12 gun, would you have used it, the P.A. system at that point? 13 "Answer: Normally I would have, yes. 14 "Question: What would you have stated? 15 "Answer: That there was a person in the 16 building suspected of having a gun. And I would have had the 17 people to evacuate the building." 18 Is that testimony still accurate, sir, that you 19 gave under oath? 20 A. Yes, it is. 21 Q. Mr. Aabrams, on September 14, 1989, do you know 22 how long it takes to evacuate that building if an evacuation 23 announcement or warning sound is made? 24 A. It shouldn't take over two minutes. 25 Q. Now, sir, do you know how long Mr. Wesbecker was 77 1 in the building on that occasion before he took his own life? 2 A. No, I don't. 3 Q. Mr. Aabrams, in connection with that day, sir, 4 do you know if Mr. McCall or Mr. Shea were on the premises? 5 A. No, they weren't. 6 Q. I believe those are all the questions I have at 7 this time, sir. 8 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith. 9 10 EXAMINATION ___________ 11 12 BY_MR._SMITH: __ ___ ______ 13 Q. Good morning, Mr. Aabrams. I'm Paul Smith and I 14 represent the Plaintiffs. It's good to see somebody from 15 Dallas. 16 As I understand it, you were unarmed on the 17 morning that this incident occurred? 18 A. That's true. 19 Q. And the reason you were unarmed is because that 20 was what you were told -- how you were told to be by your 21 employer; is that correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And you had never been armed as long as you had 24 worked as a guard at Standard Gravure? 25 A. True. 78 1 Q. Is that correct? 2 A. That's correct. 3 Q. During your time as a guard at Standard Gravure 4 up until September 14th, 1989, there had never been any 5 violence that had occurred on those premises, had there? 6 A. No, it had not. 7 Q. Nobody had been shot? 8 A. No. 9 Q. You're not aware of any threats made by 10 employees against supervisors? 11 A. None. 12 Q. You had not been called upon to break up any 13 fight among pressmen? 14 A. No. 15 Q. The place was a pretty peaceable place to be up 16 until September 14th, 1989, wasn't it, sir? 17 A. Yes, it was. 18 Q. As I understand it, there had been maybe three 19 or four occasions where there had been -- it had been 20 necessary to remove vagrants from that lobby area down on the 21 Sixth Street side during the day? 22 A. Yes, it had. 23 Q. But those vagrants had never presented any harm 24 to anybody on the premises at Standard Gravure? 25 A. No, they hadn't. 79 1 Q. And there had not been any robberies there, 2 armed robberies? 3 A. No. 4 Q. There had not been any assaults there? 5 A. None. 6 Q. Were there reports of employees having personal 7 effects stolen from them by intruders onto the premises even? 8 A. There had been reports of employees missing 9 personal items, but I don't think that anybody ever pinpointed 10 it to some of the vagrants that hung out in the hall. 11 Q. You never had an occasion where it was suspected 12 that somebody had come off the street and onto the premises 13 and stolen somebody's property -- 14 A. No. 15 Q. -- that belonged to employees? 16 A. No. 17 Q. There had not been any occasion to call the 18 police even up to that point, had there? 19 A. No, it hadn't. 20 Q. The fire alarm and P.A. system, as I understand 21 it, had been disassembled in part for repair; is that right? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. What specifically were they going to be doing 24 with that? 25 A. I have no idea. 80 1 Q. And was it your understanding that the system 2 was being upgraded or had there been malfunctions with the 3 systems or do you have any idea? 4 A. No. It was my understanding that the system was 5 being upgraded. 6 Q. It was being upgraded? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And what was going to be added to the system? 9 A. I have no idea. 10 Q. And this system had been taken down on September 11 the 7th or that's what you said in your deposition. It's your 12 recollection now it was two to five days? 13 A. I don't think I had pinpointed a day, but it was 14 somewhere around that time. 15 Q. And it was the intent to replace that system; is 16 that right? 17 A. Yes. Uh-huh. 18 Q. As I understand it, the fire alarm system within 19 the building could be activated by either pulling one of the 20 pull alarms; is that right? 21 A. Yes. It could have. 22 Q. And there were sensors that would activate the 23 fire alarm within the building that would still activate 24 itself; right? 25 A. Yes. 81 1 Q. The only thing that you were prevented from 2 doing from the guard shack by virtue of this system being 3 worked on was that you couldn't activate the fire alarm system 4 from where you were and you couldn't use the microphone to 5 make a P.A. announcement of fire at that time? 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q. Did you feel that this temporary repair on the 8 security -- on the fire alarm system at that time presented a 9 great security risk for the premises? 10 A. No, I didn't. 11 Q. Did you feel that there was a danger or imminent 12 danger of the employees on the premises when you went to work 13 on September 14th, 1989? 14 A. No, I didn't. 15 Q. Did you understand that the video camera that 16 had been operational until seven or eight months before down 17 in the lobby of the Sixth Street entrance was not repaired by 18 virtue of the fact that it had been vandalized on several 19 occasions? 20 A. I had no idea why it hadn't been repaired. 21 Q. You just knew it was down? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. But you didn't know the decision as to why to 24 not replace it? 25 A. No, I didn't. 82 1 Q. Now, there were three doors, did you say, coming 2 in off Sixth Street before you got to the elevator? 3 A. There were two. Two outer doors. 4 Q. Two? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. So there was this grille-type door? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And then there was a solid steel door? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Now, those doors were both locked when the 11 business was closed; correct? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. But they were unlocked when the business was 14 open, weren't they? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And the reason they were unlocked was to allow 17 customers to arrive on the premises; correct, sir? 18 A. Right. 19 Q. This was a business, was it not? 20 A. Yes, it was. 21 Q. And your job and everybody else's job there on 22 the premises, I assume, depended on continuing -- continued 23 contact with customers, didn't it? 24 A. I would think so. 25 Q. It wasn't unreasonable, in your opinion, to have 83 1 that Sixth Street entrance unlocked, was it? 2 MR. STOPHER: Objection, Your Honor. May we 3 approach the bench? 4 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 5 MR. STOPHER: That's precisely the same question 6 that I asked in a nonleading form and now he wants to ask it 7 in a leading form and make it his question and his answer. 8 MR. SMITH: No, it's not. He's made a big deal 9 out of the -- 10 JUDGE POTTER: I really must not have understood 11 it. 12 MR. SMITH: It must not have been a very good 13 question. The question was if the door being unlocked on the 14 Sixth Street didn't seem -- during business hours didn't seem 15 unreasonable to you. 16 MR. STOPHER: The question was, in your opinion, 17 the Sixth Street door being unlocked was not unreasonable, was 18 it. 19 MR. SMITH: That's exactly what I asked. 20 MR. STOPHER: And I asked him whether or not the 21 equipment and the condition of that door at the Sixth Street 22 entrance allowed him to control access, and it was objected to 23 and it was ordered not to be asked. 24 JUDGE POTTER: This guy can tell what the facts 25 are. If you want to ask him do you know it was unlocked... 84 1 MR. SMITH: The reason I was asking him is 2 because he was saying that this presented a risk to have the 3 Sixth Street door open and there have been some discussions 4 about locking the Sixth Street door between he and Mr. 5 Throneberry, and that's what I'm trying to refute, Your Honor. 6 MR. STOPHER: Again, he's asking for guess. He 7 can ask about facts. But when he asks an opinion question, 8 that's the same thing that the Court ordered not to come in 9 through this Witness. 10 JUDGE POTTER: I really don't know what you-all 11 are trying to get at except to have this guy testify to 12 something he's not qualified to testify to. Objection is 13 sustained. 14 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 15 Q. In connection with ex-employees who are -- not 16 ex-employees, but employees who are still employees but are on 17 long-term disability, did those employees always use the back 18 entrance to go to the third floor to check on their insurance 19 premiums and things of that nature or did they sometimes use 20 the Sixth Street entrance? 21 A. Normally they were supposed to use the Armory 22 Street entrance. It would be hard for me to say who went into 23 the Sixth Street door. 24 Q. Would there have been any prohibition against an 25 employee who was on long-term disability from using the Sixth 85 1 Street entrance to go up to the third floor to check with some 2 of the people in the insurance or long-term disability system? 3 A. No. No. There wouldn't have been. 4 Q. And you wouldn't have prevented someone from 5 going in to conduct that type of business? 6 A. No, I wouldn't have. 7 Q. As I understand it, you testified here that you 8 didn't know Joseph Wesbecker? 9 A. No, I didn't. 10 Q. But would it be accurate to state that you knew 11 him as an employee of Standard Gravure, you just didn't know 12 his name? 13 A. I didn't know him at all. I don't think that 14 Mr. Wesbecker had even been at work since we'd been there. 15 Q. All right. On Page 104 of your deposition, 16 beginning at Line 18, you were asked the question, "Do you 17 recall Mr. Wesbecker coming into the plant before the 18 shootings on September 14th, 1989." 19 Your answer was: "Not specifically. Usually at 20 shift change time there's probably 100, 150 people coming in. 21 Yes, I had saw Mr. Wesbecker before, you know. I couldn't say 22 what day it was or where he was going or at the time who he 23 was. 24 "Question: Did you know him by sight? 25 "Answer: Yes. 86 1 "Question: And by name? 2 "Answer: No. I knew him by sight." 3 A. Let me clarify that. 4 Q. Okay. 5 A. This was after the 14th. After this happened 6 someone pointed his picture out to me, then I knew-- 7 Q. You recognized him? 8 A. -- who he was. I never put a name to him or I 9 never knew him. 10 Q. Okay. That's what I was trying to clear up. If 11 Mr. Wesbecker had come to you on September 13th and, say, come 12 in by the guard shack there at the pedestrian gate, you would 13 have recognized Mr. Wesbecker as an employee of Standard 14 Gravure? 15 A. I would have -- he would have had an I.D. card. 16 But I would have known that he worked there, yes. 17 Q. You would have known he worked there? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. You wouldn't have known his name at that time? 20 A. No, I would not have. 21 Q. Then after this incident and after it happened 22 you were shown a picture of Mr. Wesbecker? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And at that time you recognized the face but 25 didn't really recognize the name until you were given the 87 1 name? 2 A. Right. 3 Q. But before that, you would have known Joseph 4 Wesbecker not by name but as an employee of Standard Gravure? 5 A. Yes, I would have. 6 Q. And would have allowed him on the premises? 7 A. Yes, I would have. 8 Q. Because you did not know of any threats that he 9 had posed? 10 A. We had none reported. 11 Q. And you did -- had never seen Mr. Wesbecker 12 acting in any violent way? 13 A. No, I didn't. 14 Q. You had never had to break up a fight with 15 Mr. Wesbecker? 16 A. No. 17 Q. You never had to call the police on 18 Mr. Wesbecker? 19 A. No. 20 Q. He had never caused a disturbance of any kind up 21 until September 14th, 1989? 22 A. No, he hadn't. 23 Q. In fact, had there been any disturbances by any 24 employees up until September 14th, 1989, Mr. Aabrams? 25 A. No, it hadn't. 88 1 Q. As I understand it, when you got the call from 2 this lady, you got a call that said she had seen somebody come 3 into the Sixth Street entrance and it appeared to her that he 4 might have a gun; is that correct? 5 A. Correct. 6 Q. Now, did you take it by that that there wasn't a 7 gun actually visible; in other words, that maybe the gun had 8 been encased in something or covered with something? 9 A. That's hard to say. Her statement was, "Jim, a 10 gentleman just came through the Sixth Street door and he 11 appeared to have a rifle in his hand." 12 Q. A rifle. All right. 13 A. And so, you know, she wasn't sure it was a rifle 14 but I called 911 anyway, you know. And I only entered the 15 building to make sure that it was a rifle before we had 20 16 cars of police there, you know, running through the building. 17 Q. Now, that was going to be my next question. 18 When you called the police, what did you report to the police? 19 You had had a report from this lady that she thought this man 20 -- or this man had what appeared to be a rifle. What did you 21 tell the police? 22 A. I told them the same thing. 23 Q. Now, did they tell you to check it out yourself? 24 A. No, they didn't. 25 Q. Did they ask you whether you were armed or 89 1 unarmed? 2 A. No, they didn't. 3 Q. Did they tell you to stop whoever it was? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Did they tell you to grab whatever you could 6 find and go stop whoever it was in the building with a gun? 7 A. No, they didn't. 8 Q. Based on your training and experience as an 9 intelligence officer, as an individual retired military -- 10 were you with the MP? 11 A. Yes, I was. 12 Q. As a military policeman, do you have any 13 judgment as to why you were not instructed by the City of 14 Louisville Police to stop this man? 15 A. You know, it would be almost impossible to stop 16 this man; you're unarmed and he's got a rifle. 17 Q. All right. Did they even tell you to go look 18 for the man that was on the premises? 19 A. No, they didn't. No, they didn't. 20 Q. Why did you elect to do that, Mr. Aabrams? 21 A. Because I wanted to be sure that it was a weapon 22 before we had 10, 12 cars of police in the parking lot and 23 everybody's work is disturbed. 24 Q. Again, this was the first report that you had 25 ever had that there was somebody with a gun on the premises, 90 1 wasn't it? 2 A. Yes, it was. 3 Q. Now, did you -- did this scare you when you 4 heard this? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Why? 7 A. I had no reason to be scared. I hadn't saw a 8 gun. 9 Q. And you had no reason based on prior experience 10 at the plant with guns? 11 A. No, I didn't. 12 Q. Now, did you run to where you went and saw 13 Mr. Wesbecker? 14 A. No, I didn't. 15 Q. Did you walk fast? 16 A. Yes, I did. 17 Q. Why did you choose the route that you took? 18 A. Well, at the time it was probably the fastest 19 way to get there. 20 Q. Can you give us an estimate of how long it took 21 you to get from the guard shack after you hung up the phone 22 from the police until the time that you were just ready to 23 open that stairwell door there on the third floor? 24 A. No longer than a minute and a half, two minutes 25 at the most. 91 1 Q. A minute and a half to two minutes? 2 A. (Nods head affirmatively). 3 Q. Did you have your walkie-talkie with you at that 4 time? 5 A. No, I didn't. 6 Q. Did you have a walkie-talkie issued to you? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Is there any reason that you didn't have it on 9 your person or did you just leave it? 10 A. There was no one I could talk to on it. I'm the 11 only -- from eight to four I was the only person -- the only 12 security person on the premises. 13 Q. And you had called the police and knew the 14 police were en route? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Why didn't you go to the first floor and take 17 the elevator up to the third floor? 18 A. You have so many people coming to work that time 19 of the morning I would have probably been standing there for 20 five or ten minutes trying to get on the elevator. It's a lot 21 faster to take the stairwell. 22 Q. You elected to take the stairwell because you 23 felt like it would be the quickest way to get there? 24 A. Yes, it was. 25 Q. And you walked from the mezzanine level from the 92 1 third floor level; is that right? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And the third floor level is one floor above the 4 mezzanine level? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And did you hear any shots while you were 7 walking up -- 8 A. No. 9 Q. -- the stairwell? 10 A. No, I didn't. 11 Q. Now, when you say you opened the door, did you 12 open the door all the way? 13 A. No, I didn't. 14 Q. Did the door pull in toward you as you're 15 standing in the stairwell or did it push out into the lobby 16 area? 17 A. I'm sure it opened out into the stairwell. 18 Q. So you would have been pulling it? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. All right. And would it be accurate to state, 21 Mr. Aabrams, that the view you saw was pretty well what's 22 pictured here, sir? 23 A. Yes, it is. 24 Q. In other words, the stairwell door would be 25 behind this piece of marble? 93 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. How close were you to Joseph Wesbecker when you 3 opened that stairwell door? 4 A. About five feet, something like that. 5 Q. This close? 6 A. Just a little farther. About that far. He was 7 standing facing -- I was looking at his left shoulder. 8 Q. All right. So he was standing facing this way? 9 A. No. If you were facing the jury box or the 10 camera there. 11 Q. So you'd be looking at his right shoulder? 12 A. Yes. His right shoulder. 13 Q. And you're standing this far away? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And if you're pulling the door in to you, do you 16 have to stick your head around or do you just open the door 17 all the way up? 18 A. The door -- there's a stairwell that goes up 19 from the door and one that comes up to the door. Now, if 20 you're standing on the level there at the door, when you open 21 the door out you can see the entire reception area. 22 Q. Okay. So could you see Angela Bowman or did you 23 see Sharon Needy? 24 A. No. I couldn't see her because she was over to 25 the right at the reception desk. 94 1 Q. Right now I'm Mr. Wesbecker and you're yourself. 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. So Angela Bowman and Sharon Needy are going to 4 be standing this way? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. But you didn't see them? 7 A. No, I didn't. 8 Q. Could you have seen them had you looked? 9 A. Yes. I think. If I had opened the door 10 completely, yes, I probably could have. 11 Q. But were you -- the threshold of the door is 12 right in front of my feet like this. Would it be accurate to 13 state that your feet were still inside the threshold, you were 14 still in the stairwell? 15 A. Yes, I was. 16 Q. And at that time, you saw Mr. Wesbecker and he 17 had the gun leveled waist high? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. He was not up aiming it like this? 20 A. No. No, he wasn't. 21 Q. And did you see him discharge the AK-47? 22 A. I never saw him discharge it. I heard it 23 discharge as I was opening the door. 24 Q. As you were opening the door? 25 A. Yes. 95 1 Q. Why did you open the door, sir? 2 A. I already had the door unlocked and I was 3 opening the door when the gun discharged. I slammed the door 4 back and went downstairs. I never got the door completely 5 opened. 6 Q. Did you have to unlock that door? You said you 7 had the door unlocked that morning at that time or was it 8 normally unlocked? 9 A. I'm not sure. Normally you do have to unlock 10 it. 11 Q. Is that a door you normally kept unlocked? 12 A. Yes. It will open from the inside, but I don't 13 think it will open from the stairwell side. 14 Q. You mean it won't open from the stairwell side? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Do you remember getting your keys out and 17 unlocking that door? Think about it. 18 A. No, I don't. 19 Q. You just think you probably unlocked it because 20 it's normally locked? 21 A. Yes, I did. Correct. 22 Q. You heard two shots? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. As you were opening the door, I guess? 25 A. Uh-huh. 96 1 Q. If you had heard the two shots before that, 2 would you have opened the door, in all likelihood? 3 A. No, I wouldn't have. 4 Q. As you opened the door, you heard the shots and 5 Mr. Wesbecker is standing with a gun pointed this direction; 6 is that right? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Could you recognize the gun then as an AK-47 or 9 did you not really know? 10 A. I could recognize the gun. 11 Q. All right. 12 A. I could recognize the sound of the gun without 13 seeing it, you know. 14 Q. Does an AK-47 have a distinctive sound? 15 A. Yes, it does. Oh, yes. 16 Q. Now, did you say Mr. Wesbecker had some type of 17 bag with him? 18 A. I'm not sure if he had a bag with him or not. 19 You know, I believe that he had some type of bag, and I'm not 20 even sure it was on his shoulder. 21 Q. Well, would it have been at his floor (sic) or 22 around his waist? 23 A. In the split second I was there, I can't say. 24 Q. That's what I was going to say. Actually, you 25 just were there -- had that door open a split second, didn't 97 1 you, sir? 2 A. A split second. I can't say whether Mr. 3 Wesbecker had a bag or, you know, anything. I only saw the 4 weapon and closed the door and it was only a second. 5 Q. As a military policeman and as an individual 6 trained in security, do you think that you would have even 7 been able to give really a very detailed or reliable 8 description of the individual that was shooting the gun? 9 A. No, I wouldn't have. 10 Q. So when you say he looked normal, that's really 11 a supposition on your part? 12 A. Yes, it is. 13 Q. Would it be accurate to say you saw the -- heard 14 the shot, saw the gun and slammed that door? 15 A. Yes, it is. That's accurate. 16 Q. And you could have seen Ms. Bowman and Ms. 17 Needy, but you didn't take time to look over there? 18 A. That's right. 19 Q. So you closed the door, slammed the door and 20 went back down the stairwell? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. And took the exact same route that you passed? 23 A. Yes, I did. 24 Q. That you entered? 25 A. Yes. 98 1 Q. To get up that way. You say you took it -- it 2 took you a minute and a half to get from the guard shack up to 3 the area where the reception area was; is that right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. I bet it took you less time to get back down to 6 the loading dock, didn't it? 7 A. Probably. 8 Q. Because probably at this time you were running, 9 weren't you, Mr. Aabrams? 10 A. Yes, I was. 11 Q. And when you got to the dock, what did you see, 12 sir? 13 A. There was one police car. 14 Q. Already on the scene? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And, in fact, the police were out of the car? 17 A. Oh, yes, they were. They were walking toward 18 the dock. 19 Q. This had been less than four or five minutes 20 since you had called? 21 A. Yes. Yes. 22 Q. And when the police officers got there, did they 23 immediately go into the premises? 24 A. No, they didn't. 25 Q. Why didn't they; do you know? 99 1 A. They asked me if I knew where he was -- I 2 explained to him where he was, the type of weapon he had. 3 They made a few calls on the radio, opened the trunk of their 4 car, took out their flak jackets, and I think they were 5 waiting on some other people to get there. 6 Q. The SWAT team? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. How long did it take the SWAT team to arrive? 9 Did you see them arrive? 10 A. Yes, I did. Before the SWAT team arrived there 11 were other police cars there. I mean, there were -- when they 12 arrived there were probably five, six cars of police already 13 there. 14 Q. Had any of the police officers gone into the 15 building, at least from the loading dock side? 16 A. No, they hadn't. 17 Q. Do you know whether or not any police officers 18 were -- had gone into the Sixth Street side? 19 A. No, I don't. 20 MR. SMITH: Let me check one more thing, Your 21 Honor. 22 You knew of no threats inside the building at 23 all? 24 A. Excuse me? 25 Q. You knew of no threats or violence inside the 100 1 building prior to September 14th? 2 A. None at all. 3 Q. And there would be occasions, though, that 4 people within the building would call you and ask you to 5 gain -- let people come in, wouldn't there? 6 A. Yes, there would. 7 Q. Like pizza deliveries and things of that nature? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. When you were -- I think you said in your 10 deposition that when you're standing this close to 11 Mr. Wesbecker -- and I assume that there was going to be this 12 kind of line of sight? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. You felt like he should have seen you if his 15 peripheral vision was accurate? 16 A. Yes. I think he should have. 17 Q. You were that close to him that he should have 18 seen you? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. And yet you don't know of any shots that were 21 fired in your direction? 22 A. No. There were no shots fired in my direction. 23 Q. On those occasions that you had to remove the 24 vagrants, you never had to use any force or anything of that 25 nature? 101 1 A. No. 2 Q. And you were able to do that yourself without 3 any assistance? 4 A. Yes. Yes. 5 Q. You never felt the need to carry a blackjack or 6 a billy club or anything of that nature? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Because you never felt any threat to your own 9 personal safety up until September 14th, 1989? 10 A. No, I didn't. 11 Q. And you're an individual trained as a military 12 policeman? 13 A. Yes, I am. 14 Q. Been in Vietnam and been in security ever since? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Did the police ask you when they came in there 17 at the loading dock if there was a way to evacuate the 18 building? 19 A. No, they didn't. 20 Q. At the time that you went to the stairwell up at 21 the reception area, why did you choose that place to go? 22 A. Because the only way he could have got into the 23 building is through the Sixth Street door, the only place he 24 could go was the mezzanine or the reception area. Those are 25 the only places the elevator will open. And I figured if I 102 1 walk across the mezzanine and he's not there, he had to go to 2 the third floor. 3 Q. You heard shots, two shots as you opened the 4 door? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And you heard shots continue as you ran down the 7 elevator (sic)? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. You ran down the stairwell; is that right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Did you hear shots as you were continuing to run 12 across the mezzanine floor? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And did you hear shots once you got out onto the 15 dock? 16 A. Yes, I did. 17 Q. Now, could you tell where any of these shots 18 were coming from other than within the building? 19 A. No, I didn't. 20 Q. Do you know if you would have pulled the fire 21 alarm or tried to evacuate the building whether or not this 22 might have resulted in people running right into the line of 23 fire of Mr. Wesbecker? 24 A. There was no way to tell. 25 Q. Because you didn't know where Mr. Wesbecker was 103 1 at any particular time; is that right? 2 A. No, I didn't. 3 Q. And you didn't know what route any particular 4 individuals might have taken in response to some alarm to 5 evacuate the building? 6 A. That's correct. That's correct. 7 Q. And what to do about Mr. Wesbecker shooting on 8 the premises you left to the SWAT team; is that right, sir? 9 A. That's correct. 10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Aabrams. 11 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher? 12 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, the only other thing 13 is to file Defendant's Exhibits 3, 15, 16 and 18, which I 14 think I neglected to ask the Court to be admitted to the file. 15 JUDGE POTTER: Be admitted. 16 JUROR MORRISON: Judge, I have a question. 17 JUDGE POTTER: Yes, ma'am. 18 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 19 JUROR MORRISON: I was a little unclear on Mr. 20 Aabrams' answer to Mr. Smith's question about if he knew 21 Mr. Wesbecker by sight or if he knew him just because he had a 22 name badge on when he walked into the plant. 23 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Thank you very much. 24 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 25 104 1 FURTHER_EXAMINATION _______ ___________ 2 3 BY_MR._SMITH: __ ___ ______ 4 Q. Mr. Aabrams, there's still a little confusion 5 and whether or not you knew Mr. Wesbecker before the shooting. 6 Did you know Mr. Wesbecker before the shooting? 7 A. No, I didn't. 8 Q. Do you have any recollection of having any type 9 of conversation with him whatsoever? 10 A. I had never had a conversation with 11 Mr. Wesbecker. 12 Q. But as I understand it, after you saw a picture 13 of Mr. Wesbecker you recognized that he was an employee -- 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. -- of Standard Gravure? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And that you had seen him on other occasions as 18 an employee of Standard Gravure? 19 A. Yes, I have. 20 Q. But you just didn't know what his name was? 21 A. No, I didn't. 22 Q. Do you recall that he came and parked in that 23 parking lot where the other employees did over the years or 24 anything of that nature? 25 A. I never recall Mr. Wesbecker using the parking 105 1 lot on the premises at Standard Gravure. 2 Q. All right. But had you seen him on September 3 the 14th, you would have had no reason to deny access to him? 4 A. No, I wouldn't have. 5 Q. Were you the only guard posted that day? 6 A. Yes, I was. 7 Q. How did you get your relief? Was there a backup 8 relief guard for emergencies? In other words, you're going to 9 have to go to the bathroom, you're going to have to take a 10 break. How did you-all handle that? 11 A. No. We didn't have another guard for that. 12 Q. Did you just lock the guard shack when you 13 needed to go to the bathroom? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Did you have bathroom facilities there in the 16 guard shack? 17 A. No, we didn't. 18 Q. What would you have to do, go into the plant? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Were you the only guard that was scheduled to 21 work that day? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. In other words, there weren't two scheduled and 24 you're the only one that showed up? 25 A. No. I was the only one. 106 1 Q. The plan called for you to be the only guard? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And, again, your primary post was the guard post 4 there in the parking lot? 5 A. Yes, it is. 6 Q. Now, as I understand it, there's something like 7 17 key stations? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. But those key stations are for the night guards 10 to check within the Standard Gravure building; is that right? 11 A. Correct. 12 Q. You don't make the rounds during the day? 13 A. No, I don't. 14 Q. But if there were to have been any need for you 15 to be within the Standard Gravure building Mr. Throneberry 16 would have called you; is that right? 17 A. Someone would, yes. 18 Q. That reminds me of another question. Mr. 19 Throneberry has indicated that he normally kept his firearms 20 in his automobile and now you've testified that you've seen 21 Mr. Throneberry wearing firearms; is that correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. All right. My question to you is: Were those 24 occasions that you saw Mr. Throneberry with firearms, was that 25 a regular thing that he be armed or would it be just sporadic? 107 1 A. No. It was not a regular thing at all. As a 2 matter of fact, I probably -- just in passing I knew that he 3 carried a firearm sometimes. 4 Q. Now, you're the guard in the guard shack; is 5 that right? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. But Mr. Throneberry is the director of security, 8 is he not? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And he offices within the Standard Gravure 11 building; is that correct? 12 A. Yes, it was. 13 Q. Do you know where he was when you had called 14 him? 15 A. No, I don't. 16 Q. Would it be possible that he was en route to 17 work that morning? 18 A. Excuse me. No. He was not in the building. 19 Q. I mean en route, in his automobile? 20 A. Oh, yes. He very possibly could have been 21 coming to work. 22 Q. Okay. Thank you. 23 JUDGE POTTER: Anything else, Mr. Stopher? 24 MR. STOPHER: Just one other question, Your 25 Honor. 108 1 FURTHER_EXAMINATION _______ ___________ 2 3 BY_MR._STOPHER: __ ___ _______ 4 Q. Mr. Aabrams, when you got the call from the 5 woman when you were in the guard shack, sir, did she tell you 6 which door Mr. Wesbecker was -- or tell you which door the man 7 carrying what looked to her to be a rifle or a weapon was 8 coming into the building? 9 A. Yes, she did. 10 Q. Did she tell you the Sixth Street entrance? 11 A. Yes, she did. 12 Q. Mr. Aabrams, from your guard shack could you see 13 anybody in any way approaching on that side of the building? 14 A. No, you can't. 15 Q. What blocks your vision, sir? 16 A. The building. 17 Q. That's all, sir. Thank you. 18 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much, sir. You 19 may step down. 20 Mr. Stopher, do you want to call your next 21 witness? 22 I don't know if we got interrupted or not, but I 23 admitted the photograph. 24 MR. STOPHER: Yes, sir. Dianah Oehmann, Your 25 Honor. 109 1 JUDGE POTTER: Since we've got a second, ladies 2 and gentlemen of the jury, I'll ask you something. I was 3 watching or reading about picking the jury in California and I 4 know everybody thinks they do things the best, but one thing I 5 think we really do better than anybody else is we don't 6 determine who the alternates are until the trial is over. I 7 don't know if you followed it out there. They put 12 in the 8 jury box and then they start picking their alternates. And 9 wouldn't you-all feel pretty bad if you knew you were an 10 alternate? I think it's better that you don't know who you 11 are until it's over, rather than in this case Mr. Higgs and -- 12 it depends on where we started picking, you know what I mean? 13 I think you feel kind of well, second-class citizen or 14 something until somebody got sick. 15 JUROR HIGGS: Do we get our estimate yet? 16 JUDGE POTTER: I'll talk to you about that 17 tomorrow. How about that, Mr. Higgs? 18 JUROR HIGGS: Sounds good. 19 JUDGE POTTER: We're going to take a look at the 20 estimate of how long the trial is going to be is what he's 21 talking about. 22 Ma'am, would you step up here and raise your 23 right hand. 24 25 110 1 DIANAH OEHMANN, after first being duly sworn, 2 was examined and testified as follows: 3 4 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Please have a seat. 5 Please keep your voice up. Would you say your first and last 6 names real loudly for the jury and then spell them. 7 MS. OEHMANN: It's Dianah Oehmann. D-I-A-N-A-H, 8 O-E-H-M-A-N-N. 9 10 EXAMINATION ___________ 11 12 BY_MR._STOPHER: __ ___ _______ 13 Q. Ms. Oehmann, would you tell us where you live, 14 please. 15 A. Number 2, Short Court, Jeffersonville, Indiana. 16 Q. And, Ms. Oehmann, I'll be impolite and ask you 17 your age, if you would tell us that, please. 18 A. Thirty-seven. 19 Q. Ms. Oehmann, by whom are you employed? 20 A. Kentucky Lottery Corporation. 21 Q. And have you ever been employed by Standard 22 Gravure Corporation? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. And about when were you first employed there? 25 A. December 16, 1976. 111 1 Q. And how long did you work at Standard? 2 A. Until April 3rd, 1992. 3 Q. That was even a couple months after the plant 4 had closed? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Ms. Oehmann, during the late 1980s, what type of 7 work did you do at Standard Gravure? 8 A. I worked in the accounting department. 9 Q. And generally where was the accounting 10 department located? 11 A. It was located on the third floor in the 12 administration office. 13 Q. And to get to and from work, Ms. Oehmann, would 14 you drive your own vehicle? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Generally where would you park in the late 17 1980s? 18 A. I was parking at Seventh and York Street in the 19 company lot. 20 Q. And when you say a company lot, is that a lot 21 that's owned by Standard Gravure? 22 A. Well, it was owned by The Courier-Journal. 23 Q. And were you allowed to park there? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And would you walk then from Seventh and York to 112 1 the Standard Gravure building? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And how would you typically enter the building? 4 A. Normally I would enter through Broadway, through 5 The Courier-Journal. 6 Q. Come through The Courier-Journal building? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And would you go in the front door of The 9 Courier-Journal building? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And where is that generally located? 12 A. It's right at the corner of Broadway and Sixth 13 Street. 14 Q. And then would you go through The Courier- 15 Journal building to get over to the Standard Gravure building? 16 A. Yes. Yes. We were connected. 17 Q. Generally how would you do that, without going 18 into a lot of detail? 19 A. I would just cut through some back hallways and 20 go up to the third floor. 21 Q. When you came in the Sixth and Broadway entrance 22 of The Courier-Journal building, what was there? 23 A. I think I need to back up. The Courier building 24 there was the guards, but our side there was just -- there was 25 nothing. 113 1 Q. And The Courier building there were guards as 2 you came in the door? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Now, did you from time to time come in the Sixth 5 Street entrance of Standard Gravure? 6 A. Yes. That day I did. 7 Q. On September 14, 1989? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. On September 14, 1989, you did? 10 A. Yes. Yes. 11 Q. Do you recall, Ms. Oehmann, where you parked on 12 that day? 13 A. On Seventh and York. 14 Q. Same parking lot? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And on this day, that is, September 14, 1989, 17 how did you approach the Sixth Street door at Standard 18 Gravure? 19 A. Well, I was coming -- I was walking down Sixth 20 Street because I was running late that day and I figured it 21 would be quicker, so that's the reason I took that entrance 22 because it would put me right at my office. 23 Q. All right. And about what time of the morning 24 were you walking down Sixth Street? 25 A. It was probably between 8:35 and 8:40. 114 1 Q. And what time were you due at work, ma'am? 2 A. Eight-thirty. 3 Q. And as you were approaching that entrance, were 4 you walking on the same side of the street as the Standard 5 Gravure building? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. And what did you see as you approached that door 8 there? 9 A. Like I said, it was after 8:30 and the street 10 was deserted, and it was just myself and there was like a -- 11 maybe a water truck or something and there was no cars. There 12 was nobody. And as I was getting closer to the entrance I 13 noticed this car pull out from in front of the new Federal 14 Building, and it was odd because instead of staying in the one 15 lane he went directly across to park right in front of our 16 doors. 17 Q. Okay. What kind of a car was it, ma'am? 18 A. I believe it was an orange Mazda, hatchback. 19 Q. Now, you mentioned the new Federal Building. 20 Where is it located, Ms. Oehmann? 21 A. It's between Sixth and Seventh Street, and it's 22 right next door to Standard Gravure. 23 Q. All right. And is it on the opposite side of 24 Sixth Street from Standard Gravure? 25 A. Yes. 115 1 Q. Where was the -- did you say the car was parked 2 when you first saw it or stopped? 3 A. It was stopped. And then he turned onto Sixth 4 Street. 5 Q. So he turned off of the other main street near 6 the new Federal Building? 7 A. There's a little street there; I don't know the 8 name of it. It's right in front of the building. 9 Q. Is it between the old Federal Building and the 10 new Federal Building or is it in front of the new Federal 11 Building? 12 A. It's in front of the new Federal Building. 13 Q. And you saw this vehicle turn right off of that 14 street and turn onto Sixth Street? 15 A. Yes. 16 MS. ZETTLER: Objection. Leading. 17 JUDGE POTTER: Preliminary. 18 Q. And then I thought I understood you to say that 19 the street was deserted? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. There was no other vehicular traffic? 22 A. No. No traffic. 23 Q. Now, Ms. Oehmann, had you entered the door at 24 Sixth Street before this vehicle stopped there? 25 A. No. I watched him pull up. I passed our 116 1 entrance door and, like, one spot past the door he parked and 2 stopped, and he just sat there as I kept walking. 3 Q. Did you look at him? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Did he look at you? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Did he get out of his vehicle as you were 8 walking by? 9 A. No. He waited till I passed his car, then he 10 got out of the vehicle. 11 Q. And when you passed his car, did you attempt to 12 approach him in any way or think about approaching him? 13 A. Well, I was going to tell him that he shouldn't 14 park there because they were good at giving tickets for 15 parking before 9:00, and I just -- something inside of me told 16 me no, just to keep going. And then as soon as I passed the 17 car, he got out and then went behind the -- like, the 18 hatchback, and what I saw, I saw it was like a box and a 19 blanket over the top of it. I didn't see what was in it, but 20 I thought maybe he was making a delivery for us or bringing 21 something into the building. So as soon as I got to the door 22 I called for the elevator, and our elevator is slow. So it 23 finally came down to the first floor and I kept waiting for 24 him and waiting for him. And then I went back to the door to 25 see what he was doing and all I saw he was still behind the 117 1 car, I don't know what he was doing; he was still fooling with 2 something underneath the blanket. And I was running late, so 3 I went on upstairs. 4 Q. Then did you get on the elevator? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And where did you go, ma'am? 7 A. Then I went to the third floor, and as soon as I 8 got off -- Angela Bowman was sitting there at the 9 receptionist's desk, and the minute I got off the elevator, 10 you could hear somebody calling for it because it went 11 automatically down to the first floor. 12 Q. Now, was there any video camera in operation at 13 that entrance on that morning? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Was there any way of shutting off the elevator 16 or locking the door that morning? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Now, did you before you left and got on the 19 elevator, did you ever see a weapon in the back of his car? 20 A. No. 21 Q. You saw I think you said something that looked 22 like a box? 23 A. Yes. 24 MS. ZETTLER: Objection. Leading. 25 JUDGE POTTER: Sustained. 118 1 Q. What did you see in the back of his car? 2 A. Like I said, just a box -- it was like humped up 3 and it had a green blanket over it. 4 Q. Ms. Oehmann, after you got into the reception 5 area on the third floor, where did you go? 6 A. I went to my desk. 7 Q. Let me show you a drawing of the third-floor 8 offices, and ask you if you can tell us generally where you 9 went. It will take me just a second to get this set up. 10 Let me ask you, if you would, Ms. Oehmann, to 11 step down here for just a moment. This is a drawing of the 12 third-floor office area and just to get you started, this X 13 represents an elevator, stairwell behind it, and this is the 14 reception area; correct? Are you situated now? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. When you got off this elevator, can you tell us 17 where you went? 18 A. This is my office right here, and I went back 19 this way. 20 Q. And entered your office? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And did you tell me that you're in the 23 accounting department? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And is this whole area along here the accounting 119 1 area? 2 A. Yes. These four right here. 3 Q. All right. And did you remain then in your 4 office? 5 A. No. 6 Q. What did you do next? 7 A. There was a computer room right here that it was 8 the girl's birthday that day and I made a cake and I had 9 stopped to talk to her, and I was in this area. Once I went 10 from here, I went to my desk to here and talked to the girl 11 about -- like I said, I made a cake and talking to her about 12 her birthday and everything. 13 Q. And did you remain in that area? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. All right. What was the first thing then that 16 you heard out of the ordinary or saw out of the ordinary? 17 A. It was like a -- we heard a pop, both of us, and 18 the girl said, "What was that," and I said, "Well, I'm not 19 sure. I'll go find out." So at that point I left from here 20 and went this way, and Jo Anne Self was coming out of her 21 office, which was right in here. She was this way and I was 22 this way, and she saw that he had a gun, and by the time I got 23 here I could smell the gun powder. And she -- Jo Anne Self 24 came running across this way and she fell and I helped her up, 25 and then we all took off this way. 120 1 Q. Did you ever see the gunman? 2 A. No, not when he got on the third floor. 3 Q. Did you and then Ms. Self go down in this 4 direction here? 5 A. Yes, we all did. 6 Q. More than just the two of you? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Other people from the other offices? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Ms. Oehmann, let me ask you to reassume your 11 seat again and let me just ask you a couple of other 12 questions, if I might. 13 I know it's been a long time, but let me go back 14 to the time that you were walking down Sixth Street. About 15 how far away from that door into Standard Gravure were you 16 when you first saw this orange hatchback vehicle? 17 A. Probably about 50 feet. 18 Q. And when he pulled up there, ma'am, and parked 19 there on the curb, was his vehicle heading toward you in the 20 direction that you had been coming from? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Did you then continue to watch him during that 23 50 feet? 24 A. Yes. 25 MS. ZETTLER: Leading. 121 1 JUDGE POTTER: Sustained. 2 Q. Did you keep your eyes on the vehicle or watch 3 the vehicle as you were walking? 4 A. Yes. 5 MS. ZETTLER: Leading. 6 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher, that's as leading as 7 the one before. 8 Q. Ms. Oehmann, as you were walking along, what 9 were you looking at? 10 A. Well, I was watching the car because that was 11 the only thing on the street. 12 Q. Was there only one person in the vehicle? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. When you got up beside that vehicle, can you 15 tell us what occurred? 16 MS. ZETTLER: Objection. Mischaracterizes her 17 earlier testimony. She never testified that she was beside 18 the vehicle. 19 JUDGE POTTER: Overruled. 20 Q. Can you tell us what occurred when you got up 21 beside the vehicle? 22 A. Well, he was watching me and I was watching him. 23 Like I said, our eyes met. And I wanted to tell him not to 24 park there, but I just kept going. 25 Q. When you were there, where was he in the 122 1 vehicle? 2 A. He was in the driver's seat. 3 Q. And when did he get out of the vehicle? 4 A. As soon as I passed the car. 5 Q. Then if I understand correctly, you went in the 6 door? 7 MS. ZETTLER: Objection. Leading. 8 JUDGE POTTER: Correct, Mr. Stopher. 9 Q. Did you see the man in the vehicle after you 10 went in the door? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Did you come back out again? 13 MS. ZETTLER: Objection. Leading. 14 JUDGE POTTER: Overruled. 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And when you came back out where was he this 17 time? 18 A. He was still behind the hatchback getting 19 something out of the car. 20 Q. Did you ever see him actually get things out of 21 the car? 22 A. No. 23 Q. That's all I have. Thank you, Ms. Oehmann. 24 MS. ZETTLER: Can I have one second to confer 25 with Counsel? I don't think we have anything, but I'm not 123 1 sure. 2 JUDGE POTTER: Yes. 3 4 EXAMINATION ___________ 5 6 BY_MS._ZETTLER: __ ___ ________ 7 Q. Ms. Oehmann, just a couple of questions. You 8 testified earlier that you thought about going up to the Monza 9 and telling the person behind the wheel that they shouldn't 10 park there; correct? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And the reason is because you knew that there 13 were a lot of tickets given out? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Why didn't you go up to the car? 16 A. To be honest, I don't know. Something told me 17 to keep going. 18 Q. Was it something about the way he looked? 19 A. Possibly. Yes. He was just strange looking. 20 It was just a different -- he just had this -- I just can't 21 describe it. 22 Q. Strange look on his face? 23 A. Yeah. And it was like maybe a guardian angel 24 was telling me don't say nothing to him. 25 Q. Something told you not to go to the car; 124 1 correct? 2 A. Yes. I just kept walking. 3 Q. Thank you. That's all I have. 4 5 FURTHER_EXAMINATION _______ ___________ 6 7 BY_MR._STOPHER: __ ___ ________ 8 Q. Ms. Oehmann, just a couple of other questions. 9 You looked at him? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Did he look at you? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Do you recall how long you-all looked at each 14 other? 15 A. It was probably at least a minute. 16 Q. He returned your look? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. That's all. Thank you, ma'am. 19 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much, ma'am. You 20 may step down; you're excused. 21 Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, we're going to 22 take the lunch hour, or lunch hour and a half. As I mentioned 23 to you-all before, do not permit anybody to talk to or 24 communicate with you on any topic connected with this trial. 25 Do not discuss it among yourselves and do not form or express 125 1 any opinions about it. We'll stand in recess till 2:00. 2 (HEARING IN CHAMBERS) 3 JUDGE POTTER: We have a motion by Mr. Smith to 4 take two depositions in Georgia, and without knowing more 5 about it, I suspect these are two people that are going to say 6 that when SmithKline got a request that they run four drugs 7 and their test will not detect less than 25 milligrams, and 8 they're going to say that they ran the tests, got nothing, and 9 because their test is only sensitive to 25 milligrams their 10 report says less than? 11 MR. SMITH: That's correct, Your Honor. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Does anybody have anything they 13 want to say before I rule on the motion? 14 MR. STOPHER: Judge, we object on the grounds 15 that these people were not identified on anybody's witness 16 list before the trial began, and while there aren't a whole 17 lot of pretrial orders in this case, that was one of them. 18 The second reason that we object is taking depositions during 19 the course of this trial I suspect that I would probably be 20 the person to go to these depositions since this relates to 21 Doctor Coleman and his testimony and I was the guy that 22 cross-examined Doctor Coleman. And, obviously, I really don't 23 want to miss a day of the trial and go to these depositions. 24 It's going to require me to try to get somebody else up to 25 speed as to what was done and what the tests were and what was 126 1 performed and have them get down there and do it in my 2 absence, and then have these depositions read as evidence. 3 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith, you indicated that 4 these are rebuttal depositions. Mr. Stopher's given his best 5 estimate that he will not finish before the Thanksgiving 6 break. Do you think it's possible for you to reschedule these 7 for that Monday or Tuesday of that week when we don't have 8 trial? 9 MR. SMITH: I would assume that we could. 10 MR. FOLEY: I would assume. I would have to 11 find out. 12 MR. SMITH: Obviously, Mr. Freeman and Mr. 13 Myers, it's their home state, home city, home territory. They 14 probably know the court reporter. 15 MR. FOLEY: The other problem would be if these 16 witnesses are available at this time. 17 JUDGE POTTER: What do you want to say, Mr. 18 Smith, about whether I ought to sign it at all? 19 MR. SMITH: They're purely rebuttal witnesses. 20 Doctor Thompson and Doctor Coleman are the people that 21 disputed that it said what it said, and certainly I think 22 we've got to bring in rebuttal evidence to rebut what their 23 testimony has been about this. 24 JUDGE POTTER: I find that it is a legitimate 25 rebuttal issue. I think it's something that he did not 127 1 anticipate. And it's not a controversial witness; it is more 2 an explanatory witness. 3 MR. FOLEY: That order, Judge, specifies the 4 time and date of the depositions, which will be changed. Now, 5 maybe I need to arrange this and submit a supplemental order 6 to you? 7 JUDGE POTTER: No. I tell you what you do. 8 I'll sign this, and you call them -- and you can go in there 9 and call them right now. Who do you deal with down there? 10 MR. FOLEY: I've been dealing with an attorney 11 down there and he may not be there now. 12 JUDGE POTTER: I'll go ahead and sign this, but 13 it's with the understanding that you will try and work with 14 them, and if you can get a better date I'll sign a second one 15 with a different date on it. 16 That leaves us with depositions; right? 17 MR. SMITH: We've got a couple other pending 18 motions that we need to discuss, but you-all need to get the 19 depositions out of the way, first. 20 JUDGE POTTER: What are the other pending? 21 MR. SMITH: Motion for summary judgment. 22 JUDGE POTTER: Summary judgment is not pending 23 until I get a pink sheet. Mr. Foley knows what that is. 24 MR. SMITH: We've got the objections to 25 interrogatories on the punitive damages issues. 128 1 JUDGE POTTER: Has the response been filed on 2 that? 3 MS. ZETTLER: Last week, Judge. 4 MR. MYERS: We filed an objection to the motion. 5 JUDGE POTTER: He filed some interrogatories and 6 then he filed a motion that you-all would respond within ten 7 days, and I signed the motion -- the order saying that you-all 8 would respond within ten days. Has the response -- and 9 response needs to be an answer or objection -- been filed? 10 MR. MYERS: We filed an objection to the motion 11 to shorten. We haven't seen the Court's order. 12 JUDGE POTTER: I'm sorry. I thought we sat in 13 here and that you-all indicated that your objection was to the 14 substance of what he was asking for. 15 MR. STOPHER: I think the response really 16 relates to both, Judge. 17 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Can I see a copy of it? 18 MR. STOPHER: I don't have one with me. 19 MR. SMITH: We can take it up this afternoon. 20 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Anything else, Mr. Smith? 21 MS. ZETTLER: There was one other motion, motion 22 to strike our experts. 23 MR. SMITH: Let's take them up -- 24 MS. ZETTLER: They filed a motion to strike our 25 experts on punitive damages. 129 1 MR. SMITH: But let's take that up so they can 2 go ahead and get this done. 3 MS. ZETTLER: So you can go have lunch while I'm 4 sitting here working? 5 MR. SMITH: We'll save your tuna sandwich. 6 JUDGE POTTER: Michael Shea one of your 7 characters? 8 MR. STOPHER: No. He's the owner of Standard 9 Gravure. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Well, I mean, as opposed to 11 Mr. Myers. 12 MR. STOPHER: It's my deposition, Judge. And if 13 you don't object, sir, I would suggest that we start with Don 14 McCall; that's the one that I wanted to put on first. And if 15 that creates a problem, I'll do it the other way around. 16 MS. ZETTLER: Can we have an agreement that only 17 one lawyer is going to argue against me this time? 18 JUDGE POTTER: Yes. That's why I was asking 19 Mr. Stopher if this was his. Okay. Let me just get oriented. 20 Mr. McCall was I guess you would call him the second in 21 command who it has been testified that he took on the Bingham 22 persona when the Binghams were running it and took on the Shea 23 persona when Shea was running it. Is this the man? 24 MR. STOPHER: That's essentially it. And to set 25 the stage on this, Judge, at the time of this deposition, we 130 1 had taken a discovery deposition of Mr. McCall. This was 2 noticed as an evidentiary deposition. It was videotaped and 3 at the time of this deposition, Your Honor, Standard Gravure 4 was a party. They had filed a cross-claim against us, and Mr. 5 McCall and Standard Gravure were represented at this 6 deposition by their separate counsel. 7 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Let me go get a pencil 8 because it's easier. And your thought at this time would be 9 playing it beginning to end without editing? 10 MR. STOPHER: Yes, sir. 11 MS. ZETTLER: Well, playing it beginning to 12 almost end. He's about 20-some-odd pages short. 13 JUDGE POTTER: All right. (Reviews document) 14 Perimeter defense? 15 MS. ZETTLER: What page are you on, Judge? 16 JUDGE POTTER: 411, your first objection. 17 MR. STOPHER: Judge, I think this one is moot 18 because he never did answer the question. He was instructed 19 not to answer it. 20 MS. ZETTLER: Then I'd like all that colloquy 21 taken out, Judge. 22 MR. STOPHER: All of what colloquy? The only 23 thing I see is Mr. Koby instructing him not to answer. 24 MS. ZETTLER: He's also not -- 25 MR. STOPHER: Down to Line 11 is fine. 131 1 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. 410 at Line 24 through 411 2 at Line 11 is out. 3 MR. MYERS: I missed that. Was the first one 4 sustained? 5 JUDGE POTTER: Yeah, because it was a nothing. 6 MS. ZETTLER: Judge, if I can explain to you 7 what I did here on some of these objections, just the style of 8 how I've done it, what I've done is tried to group together 9 pages where there is an objection to a specific subject 10 matter, and then if you'll notice here after this group 11 there's a couple of 413, 414, 419, 420, et cetera. If you 12 overrule our objection on the large block, these are specific 13 objections to specific questions on these others. 14 JUDGE POTTER: So 413 through 420 is just taking 15 Mr. McCall through Mr. Throneberry's arrangements with Hall 16 Security; is that what it is? 17 MR. STOPHER: That is correct, sir. 18 MS. ZETTLER: Our objection is that it's 19 irrelevant. Some of the more specific objections is some 20 facts not in evidence, as well as there's no causal connection 21 established between this alleged conflict and the occurrence 22 of September 1989. 23 JUDGE POTTER: I'm going overrule as to the 24 general thing, to the whole topic. Now, let's go back and 25 look at the... The specific 413, 414 is overruled. 419. 132 1 MS. ZETTLER: Okay. For the record, our 2 objection to that on 413 and 414 is that it was leading and 3 argumentative. 4 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Who is Mr. Woolfolk? 5 MR. STOPHER: He was Mr. McCall's predecessor, 6 so to speak, Judge. He occupied a position for about a year 7 or so between Mr. McCall and Mr. Rothenburger. 8 JUDGE POTTER: Is he going to testify? 9 MR. STOPHER: He's testified by deposition. He 10 lives in Milwaukee. 11 JUDGE POTTER: Are you going to read it? 12 MR. STOPHER: Probably so, sir. 13 MS. ZETTLER: We object to it being read before 14 Mr. McCall's testimony. They've given us a list of additional 15 witnesses, none of them are Mr. Woolfolk; they're Lilly 16 employees again. I think the proper thing to do would be to 17 read the deposition testimony before the deposition is played. 18 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Woolfolk is not a Lilly 19 employee. 20 MS. ZETTLER: Right. But Lilly employees are on 21 the latest list they've given us, and Larry has told us they 22 anticipate starting this week. So my problem with this is 23 that you have a man who is being -- his testimony is being 24 paraphrased and has not been read to the jury. Now, I don't 25 want to be put in a position where they read this in, 133 1 everybody assumes it's the truth, and then they never read the 2 deposition or it turns out that the deposition testimony isn't 3 accurate. 4 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, my hesitation about 5 Mr. Woolfolk is whether he's going to come live or whether 6 we're going to read his deposition. I can assure the Court 7 that this testimony is accurate testimony from Mr. Woolfolk 8 and it is in contradiction of things that were said by Mr. 9 Throneberry. 10 JUDGE POTTER: But your plan is to have him here 11 one way or another? 12 MR. STOPHER: My plan is to have him live, but 13 if not live he'll be here by deposition. 14 MS. ZETTLER: Both of these two depositions are 15 replete with instances where Mr. Stopher is referring people 16 to or paraphrasing and not reading into the record deposition 17 testimony. I think if this is going to be done properly, we 18 should sit down with the deposition testimony and put these on 19 before he brings these people in. 20 JUDGE POTTER: In this particular case he says 21 no, that's not accurate so... It really wouldn't make any 22 difference how Mr. Stopher paraphrased it because the guy 23 didn't agree with him. 419 is overruled. 420 is I guess 24 sustained because it is -- she is right. 25 MR. STOPHER: 420? 134 1 MR. MYERS: 7 to 21, the colloquy. 2 MR. STOPHER: Oh, right. 7 to 21 is out. Okay. 3 JUDGE POTTER: 424, 425. 424 and 425 is 4 overruled. 5 MS. ZETTLER: For the record, we objected to 6 that testimony and questioning as leading and argumentative. 7 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, I will -- on 433, 2 to 8 16, that can be taken out, sir. 9 JUDGE POTTER: Be careful, Ms. Zettler, he's 10 doing that just to unnerve you. 11 MS. ZETTLER: He's what? 12 JUDGE POTTER: He's doing that just to unnerve 13 you. 14 MR. MYERS: I briefed him before we came in here 15 to do that. 16 JUDGE POTTER: He makes her question her 17 judgment; right? 18 MS. ZETTLER: I'm German, I'm stubborn. I don't 19 change my mind very easily. 20 JUDGE POTTER: The 435 and 436 is overruled. 21 MS. ZETTLER: Well, Judge, in the beginning of 22 the deposition, and I know it hasn't been blocked out with the 23 objection, he states that he doesn't have any experience with 24 security; that he is not an expert in security, and he's 25 asking him to render expert opinions to those questions. 135 1 JUDGE POTTER: But he is the man in charge and 2 they can say to him and -- or he's the second man in charge 3 and they can say, "Shouldn't your employee have done this or 4 that." 5 MS. ZETTLER: But then he goes on to say, "Is it 6 your testimony that they did the right thing by not 7 interviewing Mr. Wesbecker." That's a security issue. 8 There's all kinds of factors involved in things like that, 9 things like whether they're going to make a more volatile 10 situation, et cetera, et cetera. 11 JUDGE POTTER: We don't have any evidence that 12 Mr. Frazier heard in May of '87 that Wesbecker had brought a 13 gun into the premises, do we? 14 MS. ZETTLER: No. 15 MR. STOPHER: I think that's right and I think 16 that should be taken out, Judge. That's 436, Line 21, to -- 17 JUDGE POTTER: 436, Line 15? 18 MR. STOPHER: Yes. The next one, Your Honor, is 19 a deposition that will be read from David Fewell. It's 20 misspelled here, Judge. It's F-E-W-E-L-L instead of the way 21 it's spelled here, F-U-E-L-L-E. 22 MS. ZETTLER: And I've read this deposition and 23 nowhere in the deposition does he say that Mr. Wesbecker 24 always talked about wanting to kill people. So, again, this 25 is another situation like the other gentleman. 136 1 JUDGE POTTER: Let me get myself oriented. I'm 2 going to sustain the 437 and the 438. 3 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, I can show you those 4 quotes out of Mr. Fewell's deposition. 5 JUDGE POTTER: Right. But he said he never 6 heard of him, he said he doesn't know the man, he said he got 7 no information from any source. 8 MR. STOPHER: That's precisely the point is that 9 it was never reported to him and it should have been. You're 10 taking out where, sir? 11 JUDGE POTTER: 437, Line 16 through 12 on the 12 next page. 13 MR. STOPHER: Through Line 12 on 438? 14 JUDGE POTTER: Uh-huh. 15 MR. STOPHER: Okay. 16 JUDGE POTTER: 438 and 439, I'm going to 17 overrule the objection. 18 MS. ZETTLER: Here we have a situation, briefly, 19 Judge, where Mr. Gosling has testified and here he's 20 paraphrasing some testimony that he did not give here and he's 21 also saying quote, it was scary. Mr. Gosling never said that 22 on the stand. 23 MR. STOPHER: Oh, yeah, he did. 24 MS. ZETTLER: It's like he's getting two bites 25 at the apple here. 137 1 JUDGE POTTER: Can the video cut person do that 2 here? 3 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, he said it here. 4 JUDGE POTTER: Did he say that? 5 MS. ZETTLER: Let's see the testimony. It's 6 like they're trying to get two bites out of the apple. If 7 they don't get it on direct, they try to get it in through 8 deposition. 9 JUDGE POTTER: This one didn't strike me as that 10 bad. I thought Mr. Gosling said something awful close to what 11 Mr. Stopher says he said. 12 MS. ZETTLER: He didn't say, quote, it was 13 scary, unquote. 14 JUDGE POTTER: Obviously, I don't have a clue as 15 to that. 16 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, I can tell you that he 17 did. And I went over this testimony specifically with Mr. 18 Gosling to make sure he got it into evidence, and it is into 19 evidence. 20 JUDGE POTTER: Even if I'm wrong or Mr. 21 Stopher's wrong, Ms. Zettler -- 22 MS. ZETTLER: It's highly prejudicial, Judge. 23 JUDGE POTTER: See, I see it as not that big an 24 item. But I'm overruling the objection. 25 Mr. Frazier didn't testify this way, did he? 138 1 MS. ZETTLER: No. 2 MR. STOPHER: Yes, sir. He talked about -- he 3 said that Mr. Wesbecker told him that he had purchased a 4 weapon, and then he went on to say that he was going to rely 5 on his old friend, AK-AK. 6 JUDGE POTTER: I thought that was Mr. Lucas. 7 MR. STOPHER: Mr. Lucas said it, also. But 8 Mr. Frazier also said it, also. 9 JUDGE POTTER: Who was Frazier? 10 MR. STOPHER: He was the union president, Judge. 11 MS. ZETTLER: Judge, the problem here again is 12 that -- 13 JUDGE POTTER: Wait. Wait. Wait. 14 MR. STOPHER: He was the gentleman wearing the 15 suit. 16 JUDGE POTTER: I thought he was telling him 17 that's what Lucas had told him. 18 MR. STOPHER: The way that Mr. Frazier actually 19 said it was that he got it twice; once from Mr. Lucas and once 20 directly from Mr. Wesbecker. 21 MS. ZETTLER: Absolutely not. And, again, this 22 is extremely prejudicial, Your Honor. He wasn't able to 23 establish through direct testimony with these witnesses the 24 things that he was trying to establish. If we're going to do 25 this, we should do it right; get these people's testimony in 139 1 here and he should be asked to point out exactly where the 2 stuff is. 3 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, as you well know, I 4 can't make these men come here and they won't come here, and 5 the only right that I have is to take their deposition before 6 the trial even starts. And I can assure you that in 7 Mr. Frazier's deposition when I quote this there's a quote in 8 there on a page that he gave that testimony. 9 JUDGE POTTER: But the problem is did he say it 10 out here in front of these jurors? 11 MR. STOPHER: Yes, sir; he did. 12 MS. ZETTLER: No, he didn't. He's also saying 13 half quotes here. He's saying, well, if I can get away 14 with -- 15 JUDGE POTTER: Let's do this. What is your 16 witness schedule, Mr. Stopher? 17 MR. STOPHER: I've got enough live witnesses to 18 go through the rest of the day. 19 JUDGE POTTER: And then you need these 20 depositions tomorrow? 21 MR. STOPHER: For tomorrow. Can we just hold 22 this one out, Judge, and I'll try to get you the testimony in 23 either the deposition or in the transcript or both? 24 JUDGE POTTER: All right. 443, 16. 25 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, with regard to 443, 140 1 that's precisely what Mr. Cox said on the stand. 2 JUDGE POTTER: Let me look at it, I just have to 3 mark it. 4 MR. STOPHER: Okay. I see. 5 JUDGE POTTER: Did Gosling testify that he told 6 McCall? 7 MR. STOPHER: Where are you, sir? 8 JUDGE POTTER: 443. 9 MS. ZETTLER: Gosling or Cox? 10 MR. STOPHER: Mr. Cox is who that refers to and 11 he did testify to that, most definitely, both off his 12 deposition and on the stand. 13 MS. ZETTLER: I'd like to see it then, Judge, 14 because I went through his testimony. 15 MR. STOPHER: I even checked it off on my list 16 of things. 17 JUDGE POTTER: Hold that one, too. I'm going to 18 sustain 447 and 448. I mean... 19 MS. ZETTLER: Okay. Wait a second. Okay. 20 JUDGE POTTER: Some of these I sustain because I 21 see another reason. That was just -- 22 MR. STOPHER: 447? 23 JUDGE POTTER: Yeah. 447. 448, you're asking 24 this guy is what Croft said to Frazier correct? 25 MR. STOPHER: Okay. Is 445 and 446 in, Judge? 141 1 MS. ZETTLER: No. He's setting all that aside. 2 JUDGE POTTER: I'm going to hold all those 3 three. 440 and the 443 to 446 is being held to let you-all 4 look at your dailies. 5 All right. The 449 to 454, is this the same 6 dollar-bill thing we got in before or you-all got in before? 7 MS. ZETTLER: It talks generally about an 8 undercover investigation, Judge. This is irrelevant. 9 Mr. Wesbecker wasn't on the premises any more after this 10 happened. This happened after the explosion and fire in 11 November 1988. 12 MR. MYERS: It also talks about guns and 13 document retention. 14 MR. STOPHER: Absolutely. And why these files 15 are no longer here. 16 MS. ZETTLER: It just implies. It never, ever, 17 ever establishes anything about documents being missing and 18 why. 19 JUDGE POTTER: All right. Let me get through 20 it. I'm going to sustain the objection to 449 through 454, 21 except Defendants may read on 449, Lines 7 through 14, and on 22 Page 453, Line 14 through Line -- 454, 25. Basically that 23 gets his conclusory statements in about the documents ought to 24 be there but leaves out all his kind of garbled stuff about 25 what the investigation actually was. 142 1 MR. STOPHER: So it goes down to 455, Line -- 2 JUDGE POTTER: 454, Line 25. 3 MR. STOPHER: That's a question. 4 MR. MYERS: The last question is answered on 5 Line 23 on 454 or on Line 2 on 455. 6 JUDGE POTTER: But she didn't object to that. 7 MR. STOPHER: So it goes down to 455, Line 2? 8 JUDGE POTTER: Yeah. And she doesn't object 9 to -- from there to 17, there's no objection. 10 MR. STOPHER: Okay. All right. 11 JUDGE POTTER: 455 and 456, the objection is 12 overruled. I mean, that's the whole point of what they're 13 here about on this part. 14 MS. ZETTLER: Well, Your Honor, there was no 15 testimony that there was an individual file kept specifically 16 on Joseph Wesbecker. The closest they got is Mr. Throneberry 17 testified that he may have had some notes from the one 18 occasion where Lucas told Cox or Popham and Popham told Cox 19 that there may have been a gun in the thing. They're making 20 it sound like it's a full-blown file and it's not the case. 21 JUDGE POTTER: I think it's close enough to what 22 I heard to let it in. I'm going to sustain the objection to 23 456 through 458, and also 458 and 459. The 459 objection is 24 overruled except as to the -- 25 MS. ZETTLER: Your Honor, my understanding is 143 1 these documents were the subject of a rather lengthy battle 2 between Hartford and Lilly as to whether or not they're 3 producible, and that the Court and Commissioner Clayton did 4 look at this stuff and ordered that some of it be produced and 5 some of it not be produced, and the way he's making it sound 6 here is that they're not turning over anything. 7 JUDGE POTTER: Well, I'm going to take out the 8 -- I'm going to overrule the objection except I will take out 9 459, Lines 14 through 23; that's the attorneys talking and he 10 does say, "Do you have something," and then he goes through 11 and flatly denies that anything doing with any of this would 12 ever be destroyed. So we go to 463 through 466. 13 MS. ZETTLER: Wait a second. There's more. 14 462, there's some more colloquy at the top. The stuff is 15 replete with innuendo about whether lawyers are helping them 16 destroy documents. 17 JUDGE POTTER: Let me go through this. I 18 thought I had hit it. Let me see. 19 MR. STOPHER: Judge, on Page 463, starting at 20 Line 4, I think this is redundant. It's referring to the same 21 file that you've already let in. 22 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Let me go back. 23 MR. STOPHER: All right. 24 JUDGE POTTER: I didn't read as carefully as I 25 should have the 459 through 463 objection. I'm going to let 144 1 in -- I'm going to overrule it except I'm going to keep out 2 459, Lines 14 through 23, and then also keep out 460, Lines 20 3 through 463, Line 3. 4 MS. ZETTLER: So that's out? 5 JUDGE POTTER: Yeah. It's really more 6 sustaining than it is overruling when you really get through 7 with it. It's just confusing and there's -- some of it's 8 stuff you battled Hartford over. 9 MS. ZETTLER: One more time, 460, Line -- 10 JUDGE POTTER: Let's do it the reverse. What 11 they'll be allowed to read starting on Page 459 is Lines 3 12 through 13 and then 24 and 25 on that page, and then Lines 1 13 through 20 on the next page, so that's what they'll read. 14 MS. ZETTLER: Okay. Nothing on -61 or -62. 15 JUDGE POTTER: All right. Now, let's look at 16 -63, picking up with Line 4. 17 MR. STOPHER: Judge, I don't have any problem 18 about taking out 463, beginning at Line 4, down to 464, 19 Line 12. 20 JUDGE POTTER: Do we need a lead-in for it? 21 MS. ZETTLER: Yeah. Because, see, it looks like 22 the whole -- 23 MR. STOPHER: See, he really answers it in the 24 next question, the question on Page 464, Line 15: "And 25 they're not there, are they? 145 1 "I did not find files. I found some of Grady 2 Throneberry's files, but I did not find any files on Joseph 3 Wesbecker on threats or on guard reports." 4 MS. ZETTLER: Judge, the problem is if you go 5 back to 459, he's talking about Grady Throneberry's files and 6 he's jumping and it looks like it's the same line of 7 questioning. It simply is not. 8 JUDGE POTTER: All right. I'm going to overrule 9 the objections to 463 through 466, because the part he was 10 willing to give you is really needed for the lead-in. 11 MR. MYERS: So we're going to go ahead and read 12 that? 13 MS. ZETTLER: It misstates their testimony. Mr. 14 Smithers is not on their list, he has not testified yet. And 15 there is nothing in his testimony that talks about a whole 16 file on Joseph Wesbecker. Again we're talking about 17 miscellaneous testimony here. 18 MR. STOPHER: I don't have any objection to 19 eliminating the references to Mr. Smithers. 20 MS. ZETTLER: If that's the case, the rest of 21 this needs to go, too. 22 JUDGE POTTER: I'm going to let the whole thing 23 come in. They want to prove that they're missing files and 24 that nobody knows where they are, and that's the main thrust 25 of it. 146 1 MS. ZETTLER: The reason he's willing to take 2 that out is because he knows he's not going to get 3 Mr. Smithers to say that on the stand because he didn't say 4 that in his deposition. If that's the case, then we're going 5 to ask to edit this part out because it's prejudicial. 6 MR. STOPHER: I don't have any problem about 7 voluntarily editing it out because that's the issue. 8 JUDGE POTTER: Doesn't he say what you've asked 9 him a dozen times, Mr. Stopher? Then we'll sustain 463 10 through 466 because he has flat said those kind of files are 11 kept. He doesn't know where they are. We've looked for them. 12 He's taking on the deposition persona. 13 MR. STOPHER: I don't have any problem about 14 that, Judge. 15 JUDGE POTTER: Who is Mr. Lampton? 16 MR. STOPHER: He's the social worker that worked 17 for them at times. 18 JUDGE POTTER: That supposedly snitched on them 19 after they went to see him? 20 MR. STOPHER: His files are missing in violation 21 of the law. 22 MS. ZETTLER: I object to those sidebar and 23 conclusory comments by Mr. Stopher. 24 JUDGE POTTER: Is Mr. Lampton going to be here 25 at some point? 147 1 MR. STOPHER: He is. 2 MS. ZETTLER: Again, he's not on their list for 3 any time before they plan on playing this tape. If these are 4 people that are coming in, then this is something that should 5 be played after all the people come on, not in the middle. I 6 can foresee a scenario where this man is going to be asked 7 this question, Mr. McCall said you did this or this or that. 8 And all of a sudden it has this air of legitimacy to it. This 9 stuff should be proven up before this tape is run. 10 JUDGE POTTER: What did he say in his 11 deposition? 12 MR. STOPHER: Where are you, Judge? 13 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Lampton, what did he say in 14 his deposition? 15 MR. STOPHER: He said he met with Mr. Wesbecker 16 on many occasions. He gave me his diary on the dates and 17 times at which he met with him. He said that all of his files 18 were destroyed, that he shredded them personally and that the 19 shredding was done in violation of the Kentucky regulation 20 that required that they be kept for five years as a minimum. 21 MS. ZETTLER: I'm sure Mr. Lampton didn't say 22 that. We need to see the deposition testimony. 23 JUDGE POTTER: We're going to hold that one out 24 the way we did earlier. 475 through 476, isn't this going to 25 be something where -- 148 1 MS. ZETTLER: Again, this is another one he's 2 taking notes in anticipation of litigation, working with 3 Mr. Koby, working with other people in Safety. 4 JUDGE POTTER: I'm going to sustain that. It 5 will just be confusing to this jury. 6 MR. STOPHER: 465 through -- 7 JUDGE POTTER: 477. 8 MR. STOPHER: All right. 9 JUDGE POTTER: 479 is overruled. 10 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, where are you now? 11 480? 12 JUDGE POTTER: Uh-huh. 13 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, I will agree that I 14 have never been able to establish that those phone calls were 15 made by Mr. Wesbecker. 16 JUDGE POTTER: Just my own curiosity, are we 17 going to learn who the anonymous caller was to the guard 18 booth? I was all set for that last witness to come in and say 19 it. 20 MR. STOPHER: No one knows. 21 MS. ZETTLER: What I think, it's a figment of 22 his imagination. 23 JUDGE POTTER: You think he went up there before 24 he called 911? 25 MS. ZETTLER: No, I don't think he went up there 149 1 at all, Judge. 2 JUDGE POTTER: The jury will believe that. For 3 your pop-type watchman, he was a very high-class guy. 4 MR. STOPHER: Absolutely. 5 MS. ZETTLER: Absolutely. 6 JUDGE POTTER: 480 through -84 is out. 7 MR. STOPHER: It's 480, Line 9, through 484, 8 Line 25 is out. 9 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. 490 through 495, I'm going 10 to sustain the objection. I'm not saying that can't come in 11 if the Hartford comes down here and testifies about what they 12 saw or what they did, but that's just too confusing and it 13 assumes a lot of stuff he says he didn't know anything about 14 and never heard of and disagrees with. Who is Mr. DeBruler? 15 MR. STOPHER: He is an expert, Your Honor, on 16 security, former FBI agent, and the day after the incident he 17 was hired by Standard Gravure to do a security analysis. 18 MS. ZETTLER: He has never been disclosed by 19 anybody as an expert in any way, shape or form. 20 MR. STOPHER: He's been identified as a witness; 21 they employed him. 22 MS. ZETTLER: Let's get him on as a witness 23 then. 24 MR. STOPHER: There's a deposition. 25 MS. ZETTLER: Read his deposition. Your Honor, 150 1 just because Mr. Stopher says this man is an expert doesn't 2 mean he's been established as an expert. 3 JUDGE POTTER: Wait a minute. I'm going to 4 sustain 496 through 503, and it's primarily on the grounds 5 that Mr. McCall is not an expert. Because what you're doing 6 is asking him to give his expert opinion to argue with the 7 other experts. 8 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, the big difference is 9 that two of these are his own experts. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Well, if you call them they can 11 testify against Standard Gravure. But really in this 12 proceeding Mr. McCall is more or less a fact witness. 13 MR. STOPHER: Okay. 496 through where, sir? 14 JUDGE POTTER: 503, that whole series. Same 15 thing about 505. 16 MS. ZETTLER: And if I could ask to have the 17 rest of what we have left of the lunch hour to be able to 18 reread the portions of read for completeness, a lot of this 19 stuff may come out based on your ruling. 20 JUDGE POTTER: And they're going to look up the 21 others. Okay. 22 MR. STOPHER: There are really three, I think, 23 Frazier, Cox and Lampton; right? 24 MR. MYERS: Yeah. I can check. 25 MS. ZETTLER: Cox, Frazier. 151 1 MR. MYERS: Cox, Frazier and Lampton. 2 JUDGE POTTER: But those are the three areas. 3 (LUNCH RECESS) 4 SHERIFF CECIL: The jury is now entering. 5 JUDGE POTTER: Please be seated. 6 Mr. Stopher, do you want to call your next 7 witness? 8 MR. STOPHER: Yes, Your Honor. Terri Dattilo. 9 JUDGE POTTER: Ma'am, could I get you to step up 10 here and raise your right hand, please. 11 12 TERRI DATTILO, after first being duly sworn, was 13 examined and testified as follows: 14 15 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Would you take a step 16 around there and have a seat in the witness box. You sound 17 like you have maybe kind of a timid voice, so would you keep 18 your voice up good and loud, say your full name and then spell 19 it for me. 20 MS. DATTILO: Terri Dattilo. T-E-R-R-I 21 D-A-T-T-I-L-O. 22 JUDGE POTTER: And answer Mr. Stopher's 23 questions. 24 25 152 1 EXAMINATION ___________ 2 3 BY_MR._STOPHER: __ ___ ________ 4 Q. Ms. Dattilo, the microphone that is on the table 5 there in front of you is the one that picks up your voice and 6 broadcasts it here in the courtroom, so if you pay particular 7 attention to speaking in that direction I think it will make 8 it a little bit easier for you. It's not the one on the 9 microphone stand that broadcasts in here, but it's the one 10 that you're pointing to. 11 Ms. Dattilo, where do you presently live? 12 A. 1017 Rosemary Drive, Louisville, Kentucky. 13 Q. And how old are you? 14 A. Thirty-eight. 15 Q. And by whom are you employed? 16 A. I'm self-employed. 17 Q. And what's the nature of that work? 18 A. Envelope processing out of my home. 19 Q. All right. Ms. Dattilo, were you ever employed 20 at Standard Gravure Corporation? 21 A. Yes, sir; I was. 22 Q. Would you tell us approximately when you started 23 there? 24 A. January 1985. 25 Q. And approximately when did you stop working 153 1 there? 2 A. November 1990. 3 Q. Ms. Dattilo, you were there for about five 4 years; correct? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And during that five years what generally did 7 you do? 8 A. I was a secretary. 9 Q. And in addition to being a secretary what else 10 did you do? 11 A. I was a receptionist. 12 Q. Can you -- which did you do first, was it 13 receptionist or secretary or did it go back and forth? 14 A. It went back and forth. I had started out as a 15 secretary and then was a receptionist and then a secretary 16 again. 17 Q. All right. Approximately when were you the 18 receptionist? 19 A. Late 1986 to early 1987. 20 Q. So it was a period of about how long? 21 A. Three, four, five months maybe. 22 Q. And during that period of time would you sit at 23 the receptionist's desk on the third floor? 24 A. Yes, I would. 25 Q. And when you worked there at that period of 154 1 time, what security equipment was there at that desk? 2 A. There was a video camera in the lobby, the 3 downstairs lobby from Sixth Street, and there was a monitor on 4 the desk in the receptionist's area. 5 Q. Did it work? 6 A. Yes, it did. 7 Q. What sort of an image could you see on that TV 8 monitor when it was working? 9 A. Not a very clear, but black and white. 10 Q. Could you recognize people on that monitor? 11 A. Yes, if you knew them. 12 Q. Could you see what they had in their hands? 13 A. You could probably see that they had something 14 in their hands. 15 Q. All right. And when you worked there, was that 16 video camera, was there a monitor for that video camera 17 elsewhere at Standard Gravure or do you know? 18 A. I don't know. 19 Q. All right. Ms. Dattilo, when you worked there 20 as the receptionist that four to -- or that three to five 21 months, was the video camera working all of that time? 22 A. No. 23 Q. What happened to it? 24 A. Occasionally it was vandalized, and I think 25 eventually it was taken out or removed. 155 1 Q. Do you know who made the decision and why to 2 remove it after vandalism? 3 A. No. 4 Q. When it was removed, were you no longer the 5 receptionist or were you still the receptionist? 6 A. I don't believe I was the receptionist. 7 Q. Now, Ms. Dattilo, in connection with the 8 receptionist's desk, was there ever a microphone at that desk 9 so that you could make a public announcement throughout the 10 plant when you were receptionist? 11 A. Not that I recall. 12 Q. Did anyone ever give you any instructions as to 13 how to make an announcement throughout the plant when you were 14 receptionist? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. How did they tell you to do it? 17 A. Star 71 when we got the new telephone system in. 18 Q. Was that before the shootings occurred on 19 September 14, 1989? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And there was a system in place on September 14, 22 1989, to make an announcement? 23 A. As far as I know, yes. 24 Q. Did somebody tell you how to use it? 25 A. I believe that the people who installed the 156 1 system explained to us how to use it. 2 Q. And who was told how to use it, ma'am? 3 A. Who was told as far as what employees were told? 4 Q. Yes, ma'am. Do you know? 5 A. I believe that everyone that was a receptionist, 6 I believe that the secretaries. I feel like there was a memo 7 sent around with regard to that. 8 Q. Before the incident occurred on September 14, 9 1989? 10 A. I'm not certain on that. 11 Q. Let me ask you if this -- if you recall giving 12 your deposition in this case. 13 A. Yes, I do. 14 Q. And that deposition occurred on July 1, 1993, 15 over a year ago? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Let me direct your attention to Page 36 of that 18 deposition. Do you have a copy of it with you? 19 A. Yes, I do. 20 Q. And let me direct your attention to Line 8 and 21 see if this refreshes your memory at all. 22 "Question: Let me go back then and see if I can 23 get at this this way. Under the old system, whether you were 24 the receptionist or whether you were a secretary, did you have 25 the ability to make a public address announcement in the 157 1 Standard Gravure building with the old system? 2 "Answer: I do not recall if I did or not. I 3 was never told how to do it on the old system. It may have 4 been there, but I don't recall. 5 "Question: Even if it was there, you didn't 6 know how to utilize it? 7 "Answer: Correct. 8 "In other words, it might as well not have been 9 there because of lack of instruction or lack of equipment? 10 "Answer: Yes. 11 "Question: Either way, it was ineffective? 12 "Answer: Right. 13 "Question: Under the new system, did you have 14 the ability, whether you were a receptionist or a secretary, 15 to make a public address announcement? 16 "Answer: Yes. All of the telephones were set 17 up so that you could make a public address announcement. 18 "Question: And how physically could you do 19 that? 20 "Answer: Star 71, as I recall. 21 "Question: Were you given any instruction as to 22 when to do that or utilize that function? 23 "Answer: No. 24 "Question: Was anybody, to your understanding, 25 before the shootings, given any instructions as to when to use 158 1 that public address system and when not to? 2 "Answer: I don't recall. I don't know if 3 anyone else was before the shootings occurred." 4 MS. ZETTLER: Your Honor, this is not -- object. 5 This is not impeaching; this is mischaracterizing the 6 testimony. He's going way outside the question he's asking. 7 JUDGE POTTER: Why don't you just ask her a 8 question and if you think she says something inconsistent, 9 read it. 10 Q. Ms. Dattilo, my question is on September 14, 11 1989, were you given instructions on how to make a public 12 address announcement of an emergency at Standard Gravure by 13 anybody? 14 A. I was given instructions on how to make one, how 15 to physically make one. 16 Q. And what were those instructions, Ms. Dattilo? 17 A. As I recall, to dial Star 71. 18 Q. Were you ever told when to make such an 19 announcement and, if so, what to say? 20 A. No. I was not told when to make one. 21 Q. Now, Ms. Dattilo, when you were working -- when 22 you were not working as a receptionist, if I understand, you 23 were working as a secretary; am I right? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. And you were the secretary for whom? 159 1 A. Don McCall. 2 Q. And, Ms. Dattilo, did you from time to time 3 create memos and do typewritten documents for Mr. McCall? 4 A. Yes. 5 MS. ZETTLER: Objection, leading. 6 JUDGE POTTER: Overruled. 7 A. Yes, I did. 8 Q. All right. Ms. Dattilo, did you ever generate 9 any documents regarding threats and security at Standard 10 Gravure? 11 A. From Don McCall? 12 Q. Or from Throneberry or anyone else that you 13 recall. 14 A. I may have. I don't recall anything specific. 15 Q. All right. Do you recall anything about someone 16 not being allowed on the premises? 17 A. Yes. 18 MS. ZETTLER: Objection, leading. 19 JUDGE POTTER: I think that's preliminary. 20 Go ahead, Mr. Stopher. 21 Q. Did you say yes? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. What do you recall about that topic? 24 A. I recall one person in particular not being 25 allowed on the premises. 160 1 Q. And do you recall who that was? 2 A. David Daunhauer. 3 Q. Was there any reason given that you were aware 4 of or that you can recall now why Mr. Daunhauer was not 5 permitted on the premises? 6 A. I believe he was making threats. I don't know 7 who to specifically. 8 Q. Ms. Dattilo, were the guards notified about Mr. 9 Daunhauer? 10 MS. ZETTLER: Calls for speculation and is 11 leading. 12 JUDGE POTTER: If you know from your own 13 personal knowledge, ma'am, you can answer. 14 A. I don't know. 15 Q. Let me ask you if you remember giving this 16 testimony in your deposition, Page 42, Line 25. "Question: 17 And were there any recommendations in these memos as to what 18 should be done about Mr. Daunhauer or the threats or security 19 at the plant?" 20 MS. ZETTLER: Your Honor, may we approach? 21 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. 22 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 23 JUDGE POTTER: Let me see it. Okay. Mr. 24 Stopher, what is your objection -- I'm sorry. I mean, what is 25 your objection, Ms. Zettler? 161 1 MS. ZETTLER: Well, he asked her if she had any 2 personal knowledge and she said no. And then he asked her 3 this question on deposition whether she knew that he notified 4 security, and now he's trying to bootstrap on a very general 5 question about what her assumption is. 6 MR. STOPHER: No. It's no assumption. It's 7 what she knows, she typed these documents. She knows. 8 MS. ZETTLER: There's no foundation laid for the 9 question. 10 MR. STOPHER: Judge, it really starts at the -- 11 JUDGE POTTER: Well, the point is, I mean, 12 people can say a lot of things in their deposition, but when 13 it comes to trial if they haven't seen it or heard it or 14 whatever, then they can't testify to it. I think she's 15 testified she doesn't have any personal knowledge of whether 16 the guards were ever informed of Mr. Daunhauer's problems or 17 not. 18 MR. STOPHER: Yes, sir. But am I not entitled 19 to ask her if she didn't give different testimony in 20 deposition? 21 JUDGE POTTER: This isn't different testimony. 22 MR. STOPHER: "I know that they always notified 23 security and eventually Mr. Daunhauer was not allowed on the 24 premises." 25 JUDGE POTTER: We don't know whether she knows 162 1 that by hearsay or whatever. If you want to during the break 2 impeach her with that and say, "Didn't you testify 3 differently," and she says, "Yeah, I remember now going out 4 and talking to the guards or seeing the guards or knowing 5 something," but you asked her if she knew of her own personal 6 knowledge and she said no. 7 MR. STOPHER: Here she indicates she knows it, 8 is my point. 9 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 10 Q. Ms. Dattilo, was anyone other than Mr. Daunhauer 11 barred from the premises at Standard Gravure, to your 12 recollection? 13 A. I can't think of anyone specifically right now. 14 I mean, I don't know. 15 Q. Did you ever have any information through your 16 boss, Mr. McCall, that Mr. Wesbecker was barred from the 17 premises for issuing threats? 18 MS. ZETTLER: Calls for hearsay. 19 JUDGE POTTER: Overruled. 20 Q. What's the answer? 21 A. No. I don't recall anything like that. 22 Q. I cannot hear you. 23 A. I don't recall it. 24 Q. All right. Ms. Dattilo, do you recall hearing 25 Mr. Wesbecker being discussed by Mr. McCall or other people at 163 1 Standard Gravure prior to the shootings? 2 MS. ZETTLER: Objection. Calls for hearsay, 3 Your Honor. 4 JUDGE POTTER: Overruled. 5 A. I don't recall anything prior to the shootings. 6 Q. Again, let me refer you to the deposition, Page 7 51, Line 23, "Question: What do you recall about that 8 talk" -- well, let me back up one question, Question, Line 19: 9 "Did you hear talk about why Mr. Wesbecker did this from 10 McCall, Smith, Galt and Throneberry? 11 "Answer: Yes." 12 MS. ZETTLER: Your Honor, can we approach one 13 more time, please. 14 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher. 15 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 16 MS. ZETTLER: He's talking about after the fact, 17 Judge. 18 JUDGE POTTER: I'm going to sustain the 19 objection because I do think the reference is to afterwards. 20 MR. STOPHER: All right. 21 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 22 Q. Ms. Dattilo, with regard to the day of the 23 shootings on September 14, 1989, how were you employed at that 24 time? 25 A. I was a secretary to Don McCall. 164 1 Q. And on that date, Ms. Dattilo, approximately 2 what time did you get to work? 3 A. Approximately 8:30, 8:35. 4 Q. And how did you get to work? 5 A. I drove. 6 Q. And where did you park? 7 A. In Don McCall's parking space. 8 Q. I'm sorry. I couldn't hear you. 9 A. In Don McCall's parking space in the Standard 10 Gravure lot off Armory Street. 11 Q. Was that inside the fence or the gate? 12 A. Yes, it was. 13 Q. Did that space have his name on it? 14 A. No, it did not. 15 Q. What marked it or if it was marked as his space? 16 A. It had a number on it. 17 Q. And why did you park in his space? 18 A. Because he was not going to be there that day. 19 Q. Ms. Dattilo, did Mr. Shea also have a parking 20 space there? 21 A. Yes, he did. 22 Q. And how was it identified? 23 A. By a number. 24 Q. And did other people park in his space if he was 25 not going to be there? 165 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Ms. Dattilo, after you parked, how did you enter 3 the building? 4 A. I believe, through the Area Two pressroom. I 5 went up the steps, off the dock. 6 Q. Through the Area Two pressroom? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. How did you enter the building? 9 A. Through the door off of the dock. 10 Q. Off the loading dock? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Let me show you a drawing and see if this 13 drawing refreshes or represents what you did that day. And 14 you may want to step down here, Ms. Dattilo, if you would. 15 If you'll stand right over there, then I think everybody will 16 be able to see this, including the jury. I hope the glare's 17 not too bad. Let me get you situated. This is Armory Place 18 up here. And this is the loading dock area and the parking 19 lot area here. 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. All right. And this is the Area Two pressroom 22 and this is Sixth Street over here. Okay. You kind of 23 squared away? 24 A. Yes. Yes. 25 Q. Can you point on this drawing and tell us 166 1 approximately where you parked your vehicle? 2 A. Parked my vehicle right about here, the second 3 space. There was a space here and I parked right here. 4 Q. Was Mr. Shea's space here? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And then Mr. McCall's? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And you parked in Mr. McCall's? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Was Mr. Shea's occupied or do you remember? 11 A. I don't remember. 12 Q. All right. Now, would you point how you entered 13 the building and where you went? 14 A. I came up the stairs here, walked down this way, 15 came in this door, ran up these steps and out. 16 Q. Did you come out on the second or the third 17 floor? 18 A. It would have been the third floor. 19 Q. Third floor. Let me show you another drawing, 20 if you'll just wait right there for just a second. Now, let 21 me get you oriented on this one. This is the third floor 22 reception area here. The elevator and the stairwell beside 23 the Sixth Street entrance, okay, and the bindery back in here, 24 administrative offices along this corridor here. Are you kind 25 of squared away? 167 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. When you entered did you come up this set of 3 steps here? 4 A. Yes, I did. 5 Q. And take us from there, if you would, as to 6 where you went. 7 A. Came up this door around the bindery area here, 8 which I don't remember if it was stacked with skids of paper 9 or if it was empty, and came around this way in the 10 engineering door up to my office. 11 Q. Where was your office? 12 A. Right here. 13 Q. The reception area is here and your office was 14 down the hallway, the first door on the left, I suppose, 15 roughly, huh? 16 A. Yes. Well, yes, sort of. 17 JUROR DUNCAN: Can you please speak up? I can't 18 hear you. 19 Q. Let me move this a little closer and neither one 20 of us will have to talk quite so loudly. 21 Did you have your own office or did you share it 22 with somebody? 23 A. I shared it with Pat Bigler. 24 Q. And who was she? 25 A. She was Mike Shea's secretary. 168 1 Q. All right. Now, about what time did you get to 2 your office, Ms. Dattilo? 3 A. About 8:30, 8:35. 4 Q. All right. Were you alone in your office at the 5 time? 6 A. At the time of the shooting? 7 Q. Yes, ma'am. 8 A. Yes, I was. 9 Q. Ms. Bigler was not there yet? 10 A. She was at the coffee machine. 11 Q. All right. Now, did you remain in your office 12 from the time you arrived there until the shootings occurred? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. All right. What do you first recall as being 15 anything out of the ordinary? 16 A. Well, first of all, I recalled Sharon being 17 there. She was not supposed to be there until nine. 18 Q. Who is Sharon? 19 A. Sharon Needy. She was the receptionist. 20 Q. All right. You said she was not supposed to be 21 where until nine? 22 A. She was not supposed to be at work until 9:00. 23 Q. And it was then about 8:30 or 8:35? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And she was already there? 169 1 A. Correct. 2 Q. Okay. What do you next recall? 3 A. I recall hearing three popping sounds, it 4 sounded like light bulbs popping. And I was on my way out 5 there anyway to see why Sharon was there, and when I heard 6 that I stepped around the corner, I heard the door slam. I 7 stepped around the corner and I stepped around this corner 8 right here. 9 Q. All right. There are actually, if I understand 10 correctly, two doors to your office? 11 A. Yes, there are. 12 Q. And you came out the one on the far side away 13 from the receptionist's desk? 14 A. Correct. My desk was right here; Pat's was 15 right here. This is the door that I entered from my office 16 and was easiest to get out of. 17 Q. All right. Now, when you came out of that door 18 where did you go? 19 A. I stood right here. Didn't go anywhere. 20 Q. All right. And what did you see? 21 A. Mr. Wesbecker. 22 Q. And where was he? 23 A. Standing right here, coming at me. 24 Q. And when you saw him, how was he -- how did he 25 appear to you? 170 1 A. He appeared very calm, very determined. 2 Q. Do you recall how he was dressed and how he was 3 equipped? 4 A. He had a tan coat on, I don't recall what kind 5 of pants he had on. He had a gun in his hand and something 6 over here. 7 Q. He had a gun? 8 A. (Nods head affirmatively). 9 Q. And where did he hold that gun? 10 A. He held it like this. 11 Q. All right. And you're indicating that he had it 12 across his chest? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. With the end of the gun part slanting up or 15 down? 16 A. It was kind of up towards the top edge of the 17 wall and the ceiling. It wasn't straight up; it was at an 18 angle. 19 Q. And where was the stock or the end of the gun 20 that you would put up against your shoulder? 21 A. Down by his waist. 22 Q. You said that he was calm and very determined. 23 How did he move? 24 MS. ZETTLER: Objection, leading. 25 JUDGE POTTER: Sustained. 171 1 Q. What about him indicated to you that he was calm 2 and determined? 3 A. Just the way he walked towards me, the way he 4 looked at me. 5 Q. First of all, how did he walk toward you? 6 A. Very calm. Just strided right towards me. 7 Q. And what about him indicated determination? 8 A. Just his eyes. 9 Q. What do you recall about his eyes? 10 A. That they were very blue, very -- I don't know. 11 Just blue. 12 Q. Was he looking at you? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Were you looking at him? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And about how far away from you was he when you 17 watched him? 18 A. I don't know the distance. About from here to 19 that door. 20 Q. About from here where you're standing to the 21 door where the sheriff is seated? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And you indicated that he had something and I 24 thought you indicated the right shoulder? 25 A. There was something dark back here. I couldn't 172 1 tell at the time exactly what it was. I heard afterwards what 2 it was. 3 Q. You couldn't clearly see what it was? 4 MS. ZETTLER: Objection. Leading. 5 JUDGE POTTER: Well, overruled. 6 Q. How was he dressed? 7 A. He had a tan jacket on, just a short waist 8 jacket, you know, like a spring jacket. 9 Q. Now, he was walking in your direction? 10 MS. ZETTLER: Objection. Leading. 11 MR. STOPHER: Which direction was he walking in, 12 Ms. Dattilo? 13 A. Towards me. 14 Q. Were you moving? 15 A. No. 16 Q. How long did you stay there in that position? 17 A. Not very long. 18 Q. What did you do then? 19 A. I ran. 20 Q. Which direction did you run in? 21 A. Down this hallway. 22 Q. This is the hallway that I've marked Second N/S 23 Hallway? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And when you started running, about where was 173 1 he? 2 A. I don't know. 3 Q. Okay. All right. Where did you run down that 4 hallway, Ms. Dattilo? 5 A. I ran down this hallway into this door, but this 6 is not correct. There was an office here. This was Odie 7 Martin's office. There was an office and there was a closet 8 here, and this is Bob Hentschell's office and there was a 9 closet here. So it wasn't a very big office. So I ran into 10 this office and into this closet. 11 Q. All right. There was one more office. 12 JUROR HOLLIFIELD: Can you speak louder? 13 A. I ran into this office. 14 Q. Ms. Dattilo, why don't we take a short break, if 15 the would be all right, Judge. 16 JUDGE POTTER: Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, 17 we're going to take a ten-minute recess. As I've mentioned to 18 you-all before, do not permit anybody to communicate with you 19 about this case. Do not discuss it among yourselves. We'll 20 take a ten-minute recess. 21 (RECESS) 22 SHERIFF CECIL: The jury is now entering. All 23 jurors are present. Court is back in session. 24 JUDGE POTTER: Please be seated. 25 Ma'am, I'll remind you you're still under oath. 174 1 Mr. Stopher. 2 Q. Ms. Dattilo, are you better now? 3 A. Yes, I am. 4 Q. All right. And I'm going to ask you to -- I 5 don't know if this is going to make it too loud, but I think 6 if you hold it at about that level it won't shatter anybody's 7 eardrums. 8 A. Okay. 9 Q. All right. Let me ask you, I'm not sure that 10 everyone could hear everything and I don't want to repeat 11 everything, but let me ask you to go back to where you were 12 when you came out of the office. Where did you stand? 13 A. I was standing right here. 14 Q. Right in the middle of the hallway, more or 15 less? 16 A. Actually, I believe I had my hand on the door 17 facing here. 18 Q. And at the time that you saw the gunman, where 19 was he? 20 A. He was standing right here, walking towards me. 21 Q. And did you recognize him, Ms. Dattilo? 22 A. I recognized him as someone I had seen before. 23 Q. Did you know his name? 24 A. No. 25 Q. When you looked at him and he was walking toward 175 1 you, did he say anything to you? 2 A. Not that I recall. 3 Q. You mentioned that you took off running? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And ran again in which direction, Ms. Dattilo? 6 A. I ran back down this hallway into Odie Martin's 7 office and into the closet in Odie Martin's office. 8 Q. Did he change his position, his body position 9 before you turned and ran? 10 A. He was walking towards me, and he adjusted the 11 gun. I don't know what he was doing to the gun. He was 12 rattling it or something. I don't know what it was. 13 Q. It was with his left hand he was making some 14 adjustment? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Did he do anything else as you watched him? 17 A. I didn't watch him very long. 18 Q. All right. Did he ever point the gun at you? 19 A. I never saw the gun pointed at me. 20 Q. Did you hear something? 21 A. I didn't hear anything. 22 Q. Did you hear any shots fired in your direction 23 or where you had been? 24 A. I heard shots fired after I was in the closet. 25 Q. Did you have any information in any way that he 176 1 ever came down this hallway after you? 2 A. Before -- I mean, during the shooting, after the 3 shooting? 4 Q. At any time that day did he come down that 5 hallway towards you? 6 A. I don't believe he did. I believe the bullets 7 did; he didn't. 8 Q. Did you see bullet damage in that hallway? 9 A. Yes, I did. 10 Q. Where did you see that bullet damage? 11 A. There was a bullet hole here and one -- I can't 12 recall. I believe it was here in this wall going at an angle 13 or in this wall going at an angle. It was right around Odie's 14 door. 15 Q. All right. Ms. Dattilo, back in this main 16 hallway can you identify the offices for us on the right-hand 17 side in the direction in which he was walking? 18 A. This is Mike Shea's office, this was the 19 kitchenette area, this was our large conference room, this was 20 a small conference room and this was Don McCall's office. 21 Q. All right. On this diagram, this is marked 22 Second Conference Room, Previously Don McCall's Office. Do 23 you see that? 24 A. Yes, I do. 25 Q. Is that accurate? 177 1 A. Yes, it is. 2 Q. Now, your office is on the left here. Whose 3 office is this? 4 A. Robin Frazier's. 5 Q. It's not Don Frazier? 6 A. No. 7 Q. It was Robin Frazier? 8 A. Robin Frazier. 9 Q. Okay. And then behind Robin Frazier's office 10 what was in this area? 11 A. That was the human resources office. 12 Q. And where was Paula Warman's office? 13 A. Right here. 14 Q. All right. Ms. Dattilo, did you ever see the 15 gunman walk down this hallway? 16 A. No. 17 Q. All right. I think that's all. I'm going to 18 ask you to resume your seat. 19 JUDGE POTTER: Is that all of the Witness or all 20 of both? 21 MR. STOPHER: I think that may be all of both. 22 Let me just check, Your Honor. 23 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. 24 MR. STOPHER: That's all I have, your Honor. 25 Thank you. 178 1 JUDGE POTTER: Ms. Zettler. 2 MS. ZETTLER: Just a couple, Your Honor. 3 4 EXAMINATION ___________ 5 6 BY_MS._ZETTLER: __ ___ ________ 7 Q. Ms. Dattilo, my name is Nancy Zettler, and I 8 represent, with Mr. Smith, the Plaintiffs. Okay? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. I just have a couple quick questions. I don't 11 want to make this any longer than it's already been. In your 12 deposition you said that you described Mr. Wesbecker's look as 13 intense? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And that he looked at you with no emotions? Do 16 you remember that? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. In fact, you had heard some shots prior to 19 seeing him in the hallway? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And you said you found out later that those were 22 the shots fired at Angela and Sharon Needy; is that correct? 23 A. Yes, they were. 24 Q. And I believe you said in your deposition that 25 you were surprised that he had no emotion on his face since he 179 1 had just shot some people; is that correct? 2 A. I don't know how surprised I was. He had no 3 emotions. He was just coming towards me. Just -- 4 Q. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt you. 5 A. -- it's hard to explain. 6 Q. When he looked at you, was there any recognition 7 that you could see on his face? 8 A. I don't believe so. 9 Q. Did he seem to look right through you? 10 A. I suppose you could say that. 11 Q. And he came at you with, you said, long strides? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Did he ever point the gun at you that you saw? 14 A. Not that I saw. 15 Q. And as far as you know, he never came after you 16 into Odie Martin's office? 17 A. No. 18 Q. That's all I have. Thank you. 19 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much, ma'am. You 20 may step down; you're excused. 21 Mr. Stopher, do you want to call your next 22 witness. 23 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, may I have just a 24 moment? We'll call John Tingle, Your Honor. 25 JUDGE POTTER: Sir, can I get you to step down 180 1 here and raise your right hand, please. 2 3 JOHN TINGLE, after first being duly sworn, was 4 examined and testified as follows: 5 6 JUDGE POTTER: Would you walk around, have a 7 seat in the jury box -- the witness box. Sir, would you keep 8 your voice up loud and clear, state your name and then spell 9 it for me. 10 MR. TINGLE: My name is John Tingle, and it's 11 T-I-N-G-L-E. 12 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. And answer Mr. Stopher's 13 questions. 14 15 EXAMINATION ___________ 16 17 BY_MR._STOPHER: __ ___ ________ 18 Q. Mr. Tingle, where do you live, sir? 19 A. Valley Station, Kentucky. 20 Q. And how old are you, sir? 21 A. Fifty-three. 22 Q. And by whom are you employed, sir? 23 A. Unemployed. 24 Q. Mr. Tingle, have you worked at Standard Gravure? 25 A. Yes, sir. 181 1 Q. When approximately did you start at Standard 2 Gravure, sir? 3 A. In August of 1966. 4 Q. And how long did you work there? 5 A. Till February the 3rd, 1992. 6 Q. The day when the plant closed, sir? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. During that period of time, were you a pressman? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. Mr. Tingle, had you worked at any other printing 11 facility before you started at Standard? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. Where did you work before that? 14 A. Fawcett & Haynes. It was Fawcett-Dearing and 15 then Fawcett-Haynes. 16 Q. And when, approximately, did you work there, 17 sir? 18 A. 1958 to 1966, maybe '59, I think. I don't know. 19 Q. Late '50s until you went to Standard Gravure? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. Okay. In other words, you've been a pressman 22 all of your life, sir? 23 A. Yeah, I guess so. 24 Q. And basically worked at either Fawcett or at 25 Standard Gravure? 182 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. Mr. Tingle, did you know Joe Wesbecker? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. And were you at Fawcett or at Standard when you 5 first met him? 6 A. I knew him at Fawcett. 7 Q. And did you know him as a co-worker from that 8 time until September the 14th, 1989? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. Were you and he friends, sir? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. How good a friends were you? 13 A. Very good friends, I guess. I'm still here. 14 Q. And was there anybody that was as good a friend 15 to him as you have been, sir? 16 A. Well, yeah. Yes, sir. 17 Q. Who else besides yourself was a close friend of 18 his? 19 A. Just about everyone in the pressroom that he 20 shot. 21 Q. Mr. Tingle, let me ask you if you and Jim Lucas 22 were his closest friends. 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. Anybody any closer to him than the two of you? 25 A. About the same. 183 1 Q. Now, sir, let me go back. Did you know Joe 2 Wesbecker when he was going through a divorce? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. And were you close to him at that time, sir? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. Did he talk with you about the divorce? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. How did he get along during that process, sir? 9 A. He was under a lot of stress but not, you know, 10 perfectly normal. It disrupted his life, life-style and 11 everything else, yeah. 12 Q. Did he ever make any statements about his 13 ex-wife, Sue, to you? 14 A. Yeah. Yeah. We've talked about that. 15 Q. What did he say about her? 16 A. Well, he got mad when she kept taking him back 17 to court. 18 Q. What did he say? 19 A. He said she just keeps finding different things, 20 trying to get more money and everything. 21 Q. Did he ever make any threats about her? 22 A. No, sir. 23 Q. Mr. Tingle, do you recall giving your deposition 24 in this case on June 15, 1992, under oath, sir? 25 A. Yes, sir. 184 1 Q. Let me ask you, sir, if you gave this answer. 2 MR. SMITH: Page and line, please, sir. 3 Q. Page 56, Line 19. "Question: Did he ever tell 4 you that he wanted to get Don McCall? 5 "Answer: No, sir. He never told me he was 6 going to get anybody, I mean, other than his wife's 7 ex-husband. 8 "Question: Right. 9 "Answer: Or his old lady. He said that first 10 time he called her. 11 "Question: Sue? 12 "Answer: Yes. He said, 'I'd just as soon go 13 out and kill her; that way, I don't have to pay her for the 14 rest of my life.'" 15 A. I may have. 16 Q. Did you give that testimony under oath, sir? 17 A. I think so. 18 Q. Is that still true? 19 A. Well, yeah, but that's like any other threat, 20 you know. You say things, but it wasn't really a threat. 21 Q. Wasn't really a threat? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Did you ever hear him talk about Doctor Beasley? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. What sorts of things did he have to say about 185 1 Doctor Beasley? 2 A. He told me that he followed him a few times and 3 he parked a block away from work, and he'd followed him and 4 tried to set him up. 5 Q. Tried to set him up? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. What do you mean? 8 A. Just to catch him or plant something in his car 9 or have him locked up and stuff like that. 10 Q. What sort of thing was he going to plant in his 11 car and have him locked up? 12 A. You plant drugs or anything. 13 Q. Is that what he talked about doing? 14 A. Yeah. That's what, you know, just talking. And 15 he said he could set him up and get him some time, get him out 16 of his life and things like that. 17 Q. Did he ever say anything else about Doctor 18 Beasley? 19 A. Only that he was giving him a hard time and 20 giving his wife a hard time. That was Nancy (sic). 21 Q. Did he talk about getting Doctor Beasley? 22 A. He said he'd get a shot at him sooner or later, 23 but that's just like everyday conversation. 24 Q. Did you ever hear any threats concerning anybody 25 at Standard Gravure and Joe Wesbecker? 186 1 A. Just rumors. 2 Q. What did you hear, sir? 3 MR. SMITH: We'd object to any rumors, Your 4 Honor, as hearsay. 5 JUDGE POTTER: Sustained. 6 Q. Did you, sir, ever have any discussions with 7 Mr. Wesbecker about weapons? 8 A. No, sir. 9 Q. Did he ever talk to you about that? 10 A. No, sir. 11 Q. Did he ever have any interest in guns as a 12 hunter? 13 A. Not as I know of, no. 14 Q. Did he ever have any interest in guns as a 15 collector? 16 A. I have no idea. 17 Q. Now, sir, prior to these shootings, Mr. Tingle, 18 Don Cox was the superintendent of the pressroom; correct? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. And where was Mr. Cox's office on the day of the 21 shootings? 22 A. It was on the right-hand side of the office from 23 the pressroom, or as you come in the door it was upstairs. 24 Q. And what level would it have been on, sir? 25 A. It's like the mezzanine. 187 1 Q. On the mezzanine level? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. Where had his office been before that? 4 A. Right next to the break room. 5 Q. Is that what's sometimes called the supervisors' 6 or the foremen's office? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. At the time that Joe Wesbecker left, where was 9 Don Cox's office? 10 A. That would be in the pressroom. 11 Q. In the pressroom? 12 A. In the pressroom next to the break area. 13 Q. Let me see, sir, if I can show you a map and get 14 an understanding as to where that would have been. Let me ask 15 you, if you would, Mr. Tingle, to step around here. And I'm 16 going to ask you to stand over here and that way you'll be 17 talking toward the Court Reporter, and if you'll try to keep 18 your voice up and not turn your back to the jury. Let me get 19 you generally oriented on this drawing. This is the Area One 20 pressroom, sir. 21 A. Okay. 22 Q. And I think this would be Press One? 23 A. Right. 24 Q. Press Two? 25 A. No. Let's see. 188 1 Q. The break room is here, the locker room is here. 2 A. This would be Press One, Press Two, Press Three. 3 Q. Okay. Now, can you indicate where the break 4 room is, sir? 5 A. The break room would be right here next to the 6 foremen's office. 7 Q. All right. 8 A. This is the break room, this is the locker room 9 for the men. 10 Q. At the time that Joe Wesbecker left, where was 11 Don Cox's office? 12 A. Don Cox's office right here, foremen's office. 13 Q. And were the foremen also -- did they have their 14 office in here? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. In other words, Mr. Cox, superintendent of the 17 pressroom had their office in the same location? 18 A. Yeah. I think so, yeah. 19 Q. All right, sir. Now, let me ask you this, sir: 20 On this drawing there are some lines here indicating a set of 21 steps; do you see that, sir? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. Would you tell us what that is? 24 A. Well, the steps were leading down to the 25 basement. We have our reel room in the basement. These steps 189 1 here, you had to go past Number One to go down the steps to 2 the reel. That's where we load the papers into the press, and 3 we go down this way. You go around this way for Number One, 4 Two or Three. 5 Q. All right. Stay right there, sir, and let me 6 show you another drawing. Now, sir, let me get you squared 7 away on this. Do you see that mark there, sir? 8 A. Right. 9 Q. What is that? 10 A. These? 11 Q. Yes, sir. Is that the same set of steps you 12 were just talking about? 13 A. Right. 14 Q. And what is this area here, sir? 15 A. This is -- the pressroom is here. This is going 16 into the bindery area underneath the bindery area, the 17 basement. So this here would just be where they stored paper 18 between areas, and then you go on back and they had elevators 19 or steps you could go upstairs or whatever, but it was a 20 storage room for ink and that. 21 Q. Now, where on this drawing is the reel room 22 located, sir? 23 A. Reel room is right here. This would be under 24 the presses. 25 Q. All right. And would this be under Press One? 190 1 A. One, Two and Three. 2 Q. All right. Located on here is something called 3 a smoke room? 4 A. Right. They were building that at the time 5 Wesbecker come in, or Joe. They were just putting that up. 6 They had been working on it, like, two or three days. He 7 didn't know it was there. 8 Q. And then back behind that is a bathroom? 9 A. Right. 10 Q. All right, sir. Now, on the morning of these 11 shootings were you on duty, sir? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. What shift were you working? 14 A. First shift, one to nine. 15 Q. One to nine? 16 A. One in the morning to nine in the morning. 17 Q. So you were due to go off duty at 9:00? 18 A. Nine o'clock. 19 Q. Where were you working, sir? 20 A. Right here on Number Two Press. 21 Q. Were you in the reel room? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. And at the time of this incident was Number Two 24 Press actually running? 25 A. Yes, sir. 191 1 Q. Who else was in the reel room working with you? 2 A. Well, on this end of the press here, the second 3 reel or first reel it was a bigger roll and it was Luke 4 Stephens -- Charles Stephens and Donnie Wilhelm were making up 5 a roll down here. I was at this end here. He had two men 6 working on this break room. 7 Q. Were they employees of Standard Gravure? 8 A. No. They were outside contractors come in to 9 build this smoke room and they had been working on it for two 10 or three days. 11 Q. All right. Now, is the reel that you were 12 working on -- 13 A. Sitting right even with the steps right here. 14 Q. And a reel is what, sir? 15 A. A reel is where we load the paper up and put it 16 over rollers to go up to the press upstairs. 17 Q. Now, sir, when you were in that location that 18 morning, you were getting ready to go off duty at nine? 19 A. Right. 20 Q. Had your replacement shown up yet? 21 A. No. 22 Q. And what do you recall happening, sir? 23 A. I was -- I was right about here and there was 24 three or four of us standing here talking and that. And 25 Andrew Pointer, they just called him and told him he got 192 1 drafted for day work, which is the second shift, and he was 2 going to have to work day work. And I was laughing at him and 3 these other guys were laughing, the other paper handlers, 4 because he was due to be drafted and he had to work over, and 5 we was laughing at him and he just walked off. And I turned 6 and started to go back this way to the other side of the press 7 and the press was running, and that's when I heard a loud 8 noise. I got back about maybe 20 foot and I heard a loud 9 noise. And Pointer had just went through this tunnel here, 10 had just left me and was going out to move his car. 11 Q. How do you get from there to the tunnel, sir? 12 A. Right here. Like, here's a little aisleway here 13 and you go over and then out. You take different routes to go 14 out and move your car or whatever. He was parked on the 15 meter, but he was getting off at 9:00 so he was going out to 16 move his car, and I heard a loud noise. 17 Q. What did you do when you heard the loud noise? 18 A. I turned around and started back the way I came, 19 back toward this tunnel here, and then that's when Joe 20 Wesbecker came around the corner of the press. 21 Q. Can you look at that drawing and tell us where 22 he was and where you were when you saw him, sir? 23 A. Well, like, here's the steps here. I guess you 24 could call that the reels; right. So I was right here in this 25 area right here. 193 1 Q. And when you turned around and came back toward 2 that area, how close did you get to him? 3 A. From about here to you. 4 Q. About seven, eight feet? 5 A. Right. Eight to ten feet, something like that. 6 Q. All right. Who spoke first? 7 A. I did. 8 Q. What did you say? 9 A. I said, "What's happening, Rock." And he just 10 looked at me. Then he says -- he told me, he said, "Get all 11 the way back to the wall, stay out of my way," but he cussed 12 in between there. I said, "Man, what's going on?" He said, 13 "I told them, now I'm going to show them." 14 Q. He said what? 15 A. He said, "I told them, now I'm going to show 16 them." I thought at the time it was like a cheap movie. I 17 said, man, it's like a cheap movie. He said, "John, go all 18 the way back to the wall and stay out of my way." I said, 19 "Okay. Go for it. Look, get out of the way. Stay out of his 20 way." The other two guys didn't know what was going on 21 anyway, the two guys working on the smoke room, and they 22 ducked down when they seen him because you could see the guns 23 and then -- and I turned around and started back the other 24 way, and he turned around and went around the press -- he 25 turned first. He turned around and he told me to get all the 194 1 way back and I was going like this, telling Luke and them to 2 get back, stay against the wall and he turned around and 3 started down the press. I don't know if he had seen Barger or 4 what. But he started around the press and that and then he 5 came back -- I didn't know he came back -- and he was looking 6 to see which way I was going. If I had been going that way, 7 it might have been different. I told Luke and them, "You-all 8 get back." I said, "He's flipped out. He's got his guns." 9 Q. Now, did he ever -- when you saw him, sir, did 10 he have a gun with him? 11 A. Yes, sir. He had the AK-47. 12 Q. How was he holding it? 13 A. Across his middle with two clips in his hand, 14 with a clip in the chamber. 15 Q. And two clips in his hand? 16 A. Right. I think so. He had them taped together. 17 Q. When he was there talking with you, did he ever 18 point that gun at you? 19 A. No, sir; not as I know of. 20 Q. Did he ever point the gun at you? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Did he call you by name, sir? 23 A. Yeah. 24 Q. When you stood there talking to him, did you see 25 any other weapons on him? 195 1 A. I seen one sticking out of his belt. 2 Q. What did you see sticking out of his belt? 3 A. Just a pistol. 4 Q. A pistol. Now, when he told you to get on away, 5 do you walk which direction, sir? 6 A. I walk about this way. 7 Q. Where on this map was he and where were you when 8 you had this conversation? 9 A. Now if this is a reel, like, this is a reel 10 here, I was right about here and he was right here. And then 11 he went around the press like that -- well, it would be over 12 here because he went around the press and then he came back. 13 I was going this way. And Luke Stephens and Wilhelm said that 14 he had -- you know, he came back as I was walking away from 15 him just to see where I was going. 16 Q. Now, when you're walking away from him, did you 17 hear anything? 18 A. No. We heard loud popping noises like he was 19 firing his gun. 20 Q. Where were you when you heard those noises? 21 A. I was all the way back here by then. 22 Q. Did you see where he went after he left you, 23 sir? 24 A. No, sir. 25 Q. Now, where did you go next, sir? 196 1 A. Right straight over here to the rest room. 2 There was a rest room; right here is the bathroom. We went 3 down the end of the thing and then there was five of us in 4 this little bitty crapper. 5 Q. Did you ever see him again after that, sir? 6 A. No, sir. We heard firing upstairs and that. 7 And we come out of there and there was a door here, but it was 8 blocked off inside, and we was trying to get into that. That 9 was the maintenance department. We was trying to get into 10 that, but they had blocked it off in the inside. We couldn't 11 get in there, so we had to go in the aisleway and go down this 12 way. And I called and they said they were already on the 13 scene. 14 Q. Let me ask you to resume your seat up there, 15 sir, and I'm going to put these away. 16 Mr. Tingle, let me show you some photographs and 17 ask you if you can identify an area that is shown in these 18 photographs, sir. Let me come back to that in a moment, sir. 19 Robin, if you would get out the photographs of 20 the reel room and the stairway for me, please, just four of 21 them. 22 Mr. Tingle, while we're getting those out, let 23 me ask you a few other questions, sir. That day, sir, did you 24 ever hear a loudspeaker announcement made? 25 A. No, sir. 197 1 Q. Again, let me ask you if you recall giving your 2 deposition June 15, 1992, Page 119, sir. 3 MR. SMITH: 119? 4 MR. STOPHER: Yes, sir. 5 MR. SMITH: Thank you. 6 Q. Question, Line 10: "And he was supposedly up in 7 the pressroom? 8 "Answer: Right. I think he seen -- he seen 9 Lloyd White get shot and then he came down the steps and 10 jumped over the top of Dickie Barger and then Ray Kaelin 11 joined us, he jumped over Dickie Barger. He was in the break 12 room or in the maintenance shop with us, so there was about 13 eight of us in there. Then they told us to go out the -- you 14 know, come over the loudspeaker, to go out the Sixth Street 15 side through Courier-Journal and go over to the post office 16 and stay out of the way and get inside the post office because 17 he might be on the roof. That was it." 18 Do you recall that, sir? 19 A. Are you asking me the loudspeaker -- was this 20 before the shooting or after the shooting or during the 21 shooting? 22 Q. I don't know. When was it made, sir? Do you 23 recall the announcement? 24 A. That -- after they come out with that 25 loudspeaker was after the shooting, after the shooting had 198 1 stopped, or they were shooting upstairs. 2 Q. Let me read the next question, sir. 3 A. Go ahead. 4 Q. "Who made that announcement? 5 "Answer: It come over the loudspeaker. I have 6 no idea who made it, don't know where it come from." 7 Do you recall an announcement? 8 A. I recall an announcement, yes, but it was 9 after -- you know, after the shooting. We heard the shooting 10 upstairs. It was after I had already called the police. 11 Q. And was that loudspeaker announcement in The 12 Courier-Journal building or was it in the Standard Gravure 13 building? 14 A. I don't know. 15 Q. Where were you when you heard it? 16 A. In the maintenance shop in the -- downstairs in 17 the basement. 18 Q. Near the bathroom? 19 A. Near the bathroom, yeah. 20 Q. And was that part of The Courier-Journal 21 building or was it part of the Standard Gravure building? 22 A. That was part of The Courier-Journal building 23 then. 24 Q. And that's where you were when you heard the 25 loudspeaker announcement? 199 1 A. Right. 2 Q. Is that a yes? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. Let me show you some of these photographs, sir. 5 Let me begin, first, sir, by showing you two photographs that 6 are marked Defendant's Exhibits 111 and 112 and ask you if you 7 can identify those for us, please, sir. 8 A. That's the stairwell leading from the basement 9 up to the first floor of the pressroom in Area One. 10 Q. Now, sir, does that photograph show the set of 11 stairs that we were just talking about on the diagram, sir? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. And with regard to that set of stairs, sir, what 14 does it connect up? 15 A. It connects the reel room in Area One to the 16 pressroom in Area One, Press One, Two and Three and proof 17 press. 18 Q. Mr. Tingle, with regard to that set of steps, 19 sir, how wide are they? 20 A. About two and a half foot. 21 Q. Can two people easily pass on those steps? 22 A. No, sir. 23 Q. Now, sir, these steps connect up the reel room 24 to the pressroom? 25 A. Yes, sir. 200 1 Q. Now, sir, the area where you had the 2 conversation with Mr. Wesbecker was in the reel room; am I 3 right? 4 A. Correct. 5 Q. Let me show you a photograph that's been marked 6 as Defendant's Exhibit 110 and let me ask you if you can tell 7 us what area is shown in this photograph. 8 A. (Reviews photograph) That would be right there 9 at the bottom of the stairwell. It's on the right-hand side 10 of the steps. 11 Q. And the conversation that you had with Joe 12 Wesbecker that you've just told us about, where would it be 13 with regard to that photograph? 14 A. Let's see. Not in this area right here. This 15 is Spectracolor here, so that would be Number One. I was on 16 the other side of these rolls of paper on the right-hand side 17 there. 18 Q. On the right-hand side? 19 A. Yeah. I was on the other side of that pole. 20 Q. All right. Let me see if I can get closer with 21 this photograph. Show you a photograph marked Defendant's 22 Exhibit 101. What does that generally show, sir? Does that 23 show the reel room? 24 A. It shows part of the reel room. 25 Q. Yes, sir. Does that show the area where you and 201 1 Joe Wesbecker were talking? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Is it more to the right still? 4 A. I'm trying to figure out what this white stuff 5 is. 6 Q. All right. Let me see if I can help you out, 7 sir. Do you see the two columns in the photograph in the 8 middle? 9 A. Right. 10 Q. And behind the column on the left is the set of 11 the yellow steps up to the pressroom? 12 A. Okay. I can see that now. 13 Q. Does this show the area where you and Mr. 14 Wesbecker were talking? 15 A. I think so, yes. 16 Q. Close to this other column? 17 A. Right. And that would be generally the area of 18 the reel to Press Number Two? 19 A. Right. 20 Q. Now, looking at this photograph, sir, did you 21 run away from this photograph or did you run toward the camera 22 in this photograph after you talked to him? 23 A. Away from him. 24 Q. Back underneath the presses? 25 A. Yeah. Underneath the presses at the other end 202 1 of the pressroom, yeah. 2 Q. All right, sir. Let me show you one more 3 photograph of that area, sir, and see if it also shows the 4 area where the conversation occurred between the two of you. 5 This has been marked as Defendant's Exhibit 102. Do you see 6 that photograph, sir? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. Does that show the reel room and the area of the 9 reel on Press Number Two where you had the conversation with 10 him? 11 A. Right there on the right-hand side is the reel. 12 That is the reel room but you're looking at the back side of 13 the reel hook. We were around on the side of the press. We 14 was around the other side. 15 Q. This way? 16 A. Right. 17 Q. And this would be the opposite side from which 18 he was facing; am I right? 19 A. No, sir. He would be standing right about at 20 the end of that press, but he was facing back the other way, 21 the same way. 22 Q. Toward the camera or away from the camera? 23 A. His back would be right there. 24 Q. If you and he were standing in this photograph, 25 his back would be toward the camera and your face would be 203 1 toward the camera? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. And is this about the area where the 4 conversation took place? 5 A. It was maybe five foot past the back end of that 6 press right there. 7 Q. Back further underneath the press? 8 A. Back beside the press. You can't get underneath 9 the press, you have to go beside it. 10 Q. All right. Now, where are the stairs if you're 11 the camera in this photograph? 12 A. Right here in the left-hand side. 13 Q. The stairs are over here? 14 A. Yes, sir. Right here in the corner. 15 Q. Now, when you talked to him at that location, 16 sir, were Mr. Stephens and Mr. Wilhelm standing there beside 17 you? 18 A. No, sir. They were approximately 30, 40 feet 19 away. 20 Q. And how long approximately did you talk to Joe 21 Wesbecker on that occasion, sir? 22 A. Maybe 40 seconds, 35, 40 seconds. 23 Q. Now, sir, have you told us everything that you 24 remember about that conversation as to what he said and what 25 you said? 204 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. What do you recall about the way he looked, sir? 3 A. That he was just flushed. 4 Q. He was flushed? 5 A. (Nods head affirmatively). 6 Q. What do you mean "he was flushed"? 7 A. Like he had been running. 8 Q. Did you notice anything else about him, sir? 9 A. Well, his hair was disheveled, he needed a shave 10 and his eyes were all bloodshot. 11 Q. Anything else, sir? 12 A. No. 13 Q. That's all I have, sir. 14 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith. 15 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, we would move the 16 admission of these photographs, which are 102, 112, 111, 110, 17 and 101, sir. 18 JUDGE POTTER: Any objection, Mr. Smith? 19 MR. SMITH: No objections, Your Honor. 20 JUDGE POTTER: Be admitted. 21 22 EXAMINATION ___________ 23 24 BY_MR._SMITH: __ ___ ______ 25 Q. Mr. Tingle, I'm Paul Smith; I represent the 205 1 Plaintiffs in this case: Mike Shea (sic), Paul Gnadinger, 2 Gordon Scherer, all these fellow pressmen that he worked with, 3 Dickie Barger, Andrew Pointer. 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. Do you have any idea why Joe Wesbecker would 6 shoot them and spare you? 7 A. No. 8 Q. They hadn't done anything to him, had they? 9 A. No, sir. 10 Q. They were friends with him, also, weren't they? 11 A. All of them in the pressroom; yes, sir. Some of 12 them he didn't even know. 13 Q. But those names I've listed, Dickie Barger? 14 A. Right. I don't think he ever had a 15 confrontation with Dickie Barger. 16 Q. Mike Campbell. He knew Mike Campbell? 17 A. He knew Mike Campbell. 18 Q. Friends with Mike Campbell? 19 A. He kind of had a grudge against Mike. 20 Q. Why did he have a grudge against Mike? 21 A. Well, Mike was foreman at the time. 22 Q. But he didn't have any more of a grudge against 23 him than anybody that was in a supervisory position, did he? 24 A. Just rumors. I couldn't say. 25 Q. Okay. How about Gordon Scherer? Do you know 206 1 anything he had against Gordon Scherer? 2 A. No. 3 Q. How about Paul Gnadinger? Do you know anything 4 about Paul Gnadinger? 5 A. No. Paul Gnadinger, no. 6 Q. Andrew Pointer? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Let me see if I can get you to come back down 9 here for a second, Mr. Tingle. This is the reel room where 10 you were when you talked with Joe briefly; right? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. And this wasn't just a sit-around-and-shoot- 13 the-bull conversation, was it? 14 A. No, sir. 15 Q. Mr. Stopher referred to it as a conversation, 16 but that's not really a good characterization of what occurred 17 between the two of you, is it? 18 A. No. 19 Q. But as I understand it, you and Mr. Wesbecker 20 were in this area when this transaction took place? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. You had come where, sir? 23 A. Like if this is the press, the press right here, 24 this is the reel we're talking about. We would be right here 25 between the -- by the reel itself. 207 1 Q. Did he come around the corner and you come 2 around the corner kind of at the same time? 3 A. No, sir. I was heading back this way when 4 Andrew Pointer walked off and left me. I was walking this 5 way. 6 Q. You're walking this way and Andrew Pointer went 7 out this way and came around this way? 8 A. Right. 9 Q. Now, the testimony according to Andrew up to 10 this point is that Mr. Wesbecker shot him right here in this 11 area here? 12 A. Right. Yes, sir. 13 Q. Let's change spots so our Court Reporter can 14 hear. Obviously, Mr. Wesbecker was coming this way, Andrew 15 was coming this way when this shooting took place? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. What caused you -- and you were walking this way 18 when you passed Andrew? 19 A. The reel room itself is right here and it went 20 around. I think this is the ink room or it's supposed to be 21 the ink room or something but, anyway, you had to go through 22 the tunnel. This is the tunnel, this is the conveyer belt for 23 bringing the paper in. You went back through there and then 24 you go out the other door, like the steps here, and go out on 25 the street, Armory Place, or out in the parking lot and then 208 1 past the guard station. But Andrew had just left me here and 2 he was going out to move his car. I think he went through 3 this here. Well, anyway, he was going through the tunnel to 4 move his automobile. 5 Q. This is where he was shot? 6 A. Right. 7 Q. Did you hear the shot? 8 A. I heard a loud noise. That was the loud noise I 9 heard. And I was right about here. 10 Q. But you were facing away? 11 A. Right. And then I turned around and started 12 back to see what the loud noise was because in the pressroom, 13 you know... And I went back to find out what the noise was. 14 Q. Did you think that was a gunshot or did you 15 just -- were you just checking on what the loud noise was? 16 A. It sounded like one of the metal plates or 17 something had fell over. You know, they have metal plates on 18 the floor. 19 Q. So you weren't apprehensive at that point? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Go ahead. 22 A. So I turned around to go back to see what the 23 noise was because I was still laughing at Andrew Pointer 24 because he got drafted and he was mad because he got drafted, 25 and he walked on off and I was walking back this way. I was 209 1 walking back to talk to Charles Stephens and Donald Wilhelm. 2 And when I went back after I heard the loud noise is when Joe 3 come around the end of the press. 4 Q. Did he come around the end of the press as 5 you're walking this way? 6 A. Right. 7 Q. And all of a sudden there both of you are, you 8 standing there and he's got a gun; right? 9 A. Right. 10 Q. And you're walking toward him? 11 A. Right. 12 Q. Do you stop when you see him with a gun? 13 A. When he told me to stop, I stopped. 14 Q. Did he hold out his hand or did he just say 15 stop? 16 A. He said, "Stop right there, John. Get all the 17 way back, back to the wall and get out of my way. Well, but 18 he cussed. He said the F-ing wall, "and stay out of my way." 19 Q. He was walking toward you at that point? 20 A. Right. Well, he stopped -- he stopped right 21 about here at the end of the press and I stopped right about 22 here when I seen the guns and that. 23 Q. And so did you say anything to him? 24 A. I said, "What's happening, Rock." 25 Q. Was this after or before he said, "Don't come 210 1 any further, stop"? 2 A. I think it was after. 3 Q. And what did he say? 4 A. He said, "I told them, now I'm going to show 5 them." I said, "Rocky, you're messing up." He says, "I told 6 them, now I'm going to show them." He said, "Get all the way 7 back to the fucking wall and stay out of my way." 8 A. And I said, "Yeah, go for it." It was like a 9 cheap movie. 10 Q. You didn't think -- you heard noises. 11 A. I didn't know. 12 Q. It still didn't register with you that he was 13 shooting people? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Why? You saw a gun. You saw Joe Wesbecker and 16 you're backing off. Why did you think that this was a bad 17 movie instead of the middle of a mass murder? 18 A. It just wasn't like Joe Wesbecker. 19 Q. It wasn't like Joe Wesbecker? 20 A. It wasn't like Joe Wesbecker. 21 Q. To be down there with a gun, even when you saw 22 him with a gun? 23 A. Right. 24 Q. You didn't believe it? 25 A. I didn't believe that he was really shooting 211 1 people, no. I didn't think he had shot anybody. I didn't 2 know. I didn't know. 3 Q. Okay. So you back off. You said go for it 4 because you still thought it was a joke. Obviously, if you 5 thought he was really shooting people you wouldn't have made 6 that kind of comment, would you, Mr. Tingle? 7 A. No. Definitely not, because he would have 8 probably shot me right then, too, because I would have 9 probably took off running. 10 Q. So you didn't. You just sort of backed off; is 11 that what you're saying? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. Because you still -- is what you're saying 14 you're still not afraid? 15 A. No. I wasn't afraid. 16 Q. Okay. Then what happened? 17 A. Well, when I turned around -- and I turned 18 around and told Luke and them, stay back, stay out of his way 19 and then I turned back around. I said, "Rocky, you're messing 20 up." He said, "I told them, now I'm going to show them." I 21 said, "Go for it." 22 Q. You still don't think this is really happening? 23 A. No. He was going to show them. So I turned 24 back around and started this way. And he turned around about 25 the same time, you know. And he was going back around the 212 1 press towards the stairs and I was going back to the back of 2 the press. Well, Luke Stephens and them say -- rumor -- but 3 they said he came back around the press to see where I was 4 going, and by me going away from him I wasn't a threat. 5 Q. So you had your back to him? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. But were Mr. Stephens -- there was two Mr. 8 Stephens, wasn't there? 9 A. Charles Stephens and Donnie Wilhelm were behind 10 this row and two men working behind this smoke room. 11 Q. Were they facing him when he came back around? 12 A. Yeah. 13 Q. But he didn't shoot them, either? 14 A. No. Because they were behind me here. He was 15 trying to see who it was. 16 Q. Now, after that, you kept going this way? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Is that what you're saying? 19 A. We got these two men here, Luke Stephens, Donnie 20 Wilhelm and I went into this little bathroom. I guess it's 21 about six by four or five, Six by six, something like that. 22 And there was five of us in there. 23 Q. Before you got in the bathroom, did you hear 24 these shots where he shot Dickie Barger? 25 A. Yes, sir. 213 1 Q. Did that register? Did you hear that? 2 A. Yeah, but we had no idea he was shooting people. 3 He was firing his gun. It would be like he warned me to get 4 back, so therefore he was firing his gun and wanted other 5 people to get out of his way. He was showing them that he 6 could get to them. I don't know. That's just things that 7 went through my head. 8 Q. Okay. Then you stayed there until you heard the 9 P.A. system? 10 A. No. Till he was upstairs. We heard him firing 11 upstairs. We came out of here and then we heard him firing 12 over at the steps and that, and then we heard more firing 13 upstairs. And he was upstairs so we come out of there, went 14 in this door, couldn't get in, went to this door couldn't get 15 in. Went down to the end, went in here and I called the 16 police. 17 Q. When you called the police you called 911? 18 A. Right. 19 Q. This was how long after you had confronted Joe 20 Wesbecker? 21 A. Maybe two minutes. 22 Q. Two minutes? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. What did the police tell you then? 25 A. They told us to stay down, they had people on 214 1 the scene. Stay down away from windows, doors, and stay 2 undercover. 3 Q. But they said they had people already on the 4 scene? 5 A. Right. 6 Q. All right. Stay where you are. 7 This is the ground floor of the pressroom; 8 right? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. And this is the foremen's office? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. And this is the break room? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. How long had this foremen's office been here? 15 A. All the time. 16 Q. Five years? 17 A. No. Long, long time. I mean, you know, like 18 the 26 years I was there before that. 19 Q. Ever since you came there that was the foremen's 20 office? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. Ever since you came there that's where Don Cox's 23 office was? 24 A. No. Don Cox wasn't the superintendent. That 25 was Billy Helm, other foremen, superintendents and everything. 215 1 Q. But it was well known that Don Cox and all these 2 foremen hung out there? 3 A. Right. 4 Q. Was this break room new? 5 A. The break room had only been put in like the 6 last couple of years. 7 Q. Had it been there two years? 8 A. Roughly about a year and a half, two years. 9 Q. Did you know that Joe went on long-term 10 disability in August of 1988? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. Did you know he had been gone when you saw him 13 on September 14th? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. But before he left, did Joe -- was Joe well 16 aware that this was the break room and this is the foremen's 17 office? 18 A. He was well aware of the foremen's office, but I 19 don't know about the break room. 20 Q. Had this locker room been in existence there for 21 a long time? 22 A. The locker room had been there for years. 23 Q. And the break room was adjacent to the locker 24 room? 25 A. Yes, sir. 216 1 Q. But the foremen's office has been there for 2 years and years and years? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. If Joe Wesbecker was looking for foremen or Don 5 Cox to shoot, wouldn't he have gone in the foremen's office? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. Instead of the break room where his friends 8 were? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. Did you go up onto the ground floor level where 11 the pressroom was that morning after the shooting? 12 A. No, sir. 13 Q. You went on out the other way? 14 A. Yes, sir. To the post office across the street. 15 Q. Had you ever heard -- you can go ahead and sit 16 down, Mr. Tingle. 17 Had you ever heard of any instances where Joe 18 Wesbecker had engaged in violent conduct before September 19 14th, that he had been violent with anybody? 20 A. He had -- no, not really violent. No. 21 Q. Okay. You're hesitating. Are you talking about 22 the Media Mix incident? 23 A. Well, Media Mix, but that wasn't really violent. 24 He just smacked a woman. Well, that wasn't violent. 25 Q. Well, that's not too good. 217 1 A. They had a confrontation and she smacked Joe, 2 Joe smacked her back. Well, that's only natural, isn't it? I 3 mean, I'm not... 4 Q. Not in my house it's not. 5 A. No, not in mine, either, but I'm saying, you 6 know, out. It's customary if a woman's going to smack a guy 7 and she knows him and she's going to smack him in the face and 8 stuff like that, especially in a bar, then she's putting 9 herself in a man's position. That's the way Joe looked at it 10 and that's the way a lot of people looked at it. 11 Q. I get the impression that that is not a George 12 Foreman punch that he gave him -- rather, he gave her? 13 A. I don't think he hit her with his fist, but he 14 said a win was a win. 15 Q. Okay. Other than this incident -- 16 A. Gordon's making faces at me back there. 17 Q. I'm wondering whether your wife is in the 18 courtroom, sir. 19 A. No. No, sir. She left me. 20 Q. She left you? 21 A. She smacked me and I'm divorced. 22 Q. That's all the questions I have. I had some 23 other questions, but that's it. 24 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Stopher? 25 MR. STOPHER: I wish Mr. Smith would ask more 218 1 questions. 2 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much, sir. You 3 may step down; you're excused. 4 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, we call Wanda 5 Harrington. 6 JUDGE POTTER: Ma'am, could I get you to step up 7 here and raise your right hand, please. 8 9 WANDA HARRINGTON, after first being duly sworn, 10 was examined and testified as follows: 11 12 JUDGE POTTER: Would you walk on around here and 13 have a seat in the witness box. Would you state your name 14 loud and clearly and then spell it for me, please. 15 MS. HARRINGTON: My name is Wanda Harrington. 16 H-A-R-R-I-N-G-T-O-N. 17 JUDGE POTTER: And then answer Mr. Stopher's 18 questions. 19 20 EXAMINATION ___________ 21 22 BY_MR._STOPHER: __ ___ _______ 23 Q. Ms. Harrington, where do you live, please? 24 A. Now presently live at 1617 West Chestnut Street. 25 Q. And by whom are you employed? 219 1 A. Accustaff temporary service. 2 Q. Ms. Harrington, I hate to do this to you, but 3 how old are you? 4 A. Forty-three. 5 Q. All right. Before 50 isn't so tough. 6 Ms. Harrington, were you ever employed at Standard Gravure? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And when approximately did you begin to work 9 there, ma'am? 10 A. January of '82 is when I came there as a 11 temporary. 12 Q. And did you ultimately become full time? 13 A. Yes. It was later that year, I think it was in 14 August of that year. 15 Q. How long then did you work at Standard Gravure? 16 A. Until we closed in '93. 17 Q. My information is that it closed on February 4, 18 '92. 19 A. I mean '92. I'm sorry. '92. 20 Q. Is that the accurate date? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Ms. Harrington, during that approximately ten 23 years that you worked there, what department did you work in? 24 A. When I came into temporary I came in as a 25 receptionist and I was their receptionist until I think April 220 1 of the next year, which would have been '84, and then from 2 then on I was a secretary, engineering. 3 Q. Secretary, engineering? 4 A. Uh-huh. 5 Q. What does that mean? 6 A. Secretary in the engineering department. 7 Q. All right. And what basically was the 8 engineering department? 9 A. It was the mechanical, electrical engineers and 10 chemical engineer also was in that department. 11 Q. This would be a department that would relate to 12 electrical? 13 A. Yes. They just handled all the construction, 14 electrical, mechanical, all the contracts like that. 15 Q. Ms. Harrington, before the shootings occurred on 16 September 14, 1989, was there a public address system at 17 Standard Gravure? 18 A. Yes. Wait a minute. I can't remember. I can't 19 remember if it was installed before the shooting or right 20 after. 21 Q. What are you talking about being installed? 22 A. Because when I first came there, our public 23 address system was through The Courier-Journal before Mike 24 Shea bought the company in '86, and then after that it was 25 awhile before we got a system of our own installed, and I 221 1 can't remember what year it was. 2 Q. All right. Let me refer you if I may to a 3 deposition that you gave on February 3, 1993, about a year and 4 two-thirds ago. 5 A. Okay. 6 Q. Fair enough? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And let me direct your attention to Page 14 of 9 that deposition and see if this testimony refreshes your 10 memory at all. Line 2, "Question: When you worked at 11 Standard Gravure before the shootings occurred on September 12 14, 1989, did you ever hear about or hear or use a public 13 address system at Standard Gravure? 14 "Answer: Right before -- I can't remember if it 15 was a year or whatever -- oh, I can't remember. It was a long 16 time before they got the system. Oh, there was so much -- let 17 me see. Because our P.A. system was through The Courier- 18 Journal and their -- Courier Journal's operator could announce 19 something in our building, but I couldn't, you know, from the 20 receptionist desk. They eventually set up a system, but I 21 don't remember when they did. I'm almost positive it was 22 after the shooting and even the fire because, you know, we had 23 so many things that happened right behind each other and they 24 finally got the system after that, but I'm pretty sure it 25 wasn't before." 222 1 Is that testimony accurate? 2 A. To my recollection, yes. Like I said, I can't 3 remember if it was '88 or '89, somewhere in there when we got 4 it. 5 Q. Ms. Harrington, in connection with the 6 receptionist's station, you mentioned that early on you worked 7 as the receptionist, did I understand correctly? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And then you became a secretary in the 10 engineering department? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Did you also have any temporary or substitute 13 duties with regard to the receptionist's desk while you were a 14 secretary? 15 A. Yes. We would -- all the secretaries would take 16 turns relieving her for lunch. I think maybe we'd do it like 17 every other week or so when it got back around to us. 18 Q. And in 1989, for example, would you sometimes 19 fill in as the receptionist on the third floor? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Ms. Harrington, in 1989, was there any TV 22 monitor at the receptionist's desk? 23 A. I don't think so. I think it was gone by that 24 time. 25 Q. And why was it gone? 223 1 A. I don't know. I don't know if it was stolen and 2 wasn't replaced or what. I'm not sure. 3 Q. Do you have any recollection as to how long it 4 had been gone? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Ms. Harrington, did you ever complain about 7 people coming in to the third-floor receptionist area? 8 A. Not to my memory, no. 9 MR. SMITH: Object to that as being immaterial, 10 Your Honor. 11 JUDGE POTTER: Let me see you-all up here. 12 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 13 JUDGE POTTER: What's she supposed to say, Mr. 14 Stopher? 15 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, she said that she got 16 tired of complaining about problems with the third-floor 17 receptionist area with people trying to come in and enter the 18 premises, that by the time she saw somebody that didn't belong 19 there, that that person would already be on the premises and 20 she got tired of complaining about it. 21 JUDGE POTTER: Who did she complain about it to? 22 MR. STOPHER: She said to management, Your 23 Honor. 24 JUDGE POTTER: Objection is overruled. 25 MR. SMITH: There's no kind of confines as to 224 1 time in connection with what issue, whether it was vagrants or 2 whether it was somebody posing a threat? It's not confined to 3 anything. 4 JUDGE POTTER: I assume she'll tell us when it 5 was. 6 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 7 Q. Ms. Harrington, let me rephrase my question a 8 bit. When you would fill in as receptionist in the 1980s, did 9 you ever get any photographs or pictures of people? 10 A. Yes. I remember occasionally there would be one 11 or two out front saying don't allow them back in the building, 12 yeah. 13 Q. And who would you get those kinds of things 14 from? 15 A. Probably from Grady in safety and security 16 department. 17 Q. And who's Grady? 18 A. Grady Throneberry. He was over that department. 19 Q. And if you got such a photograph and you were 20 seated there as the receptionist, was there any way you could 21 keep those people out? 22 A. Oh, no. They would already be in the building 23 by the time you saw them. 24 Q. And what would you do about that, or what did 25 you do about that? 225 1 A. I never saw anybody that they actually had sent 2 a photograph of, but the only thing you could do was call 3 Grady or call someone in management and tell them there was 4 someone in the building or call the office -- I mean, the 5 guards out at the guard post out on Armory and just tell them 6 that they're in the building, but there's nothing you could 7 do. 8 Q. Did you ever complain about that? 9 A. No. I don't remember complaining to anybody in 10 management about it. You know, maybe like us fellow employees 11 may discuss it but, no, not to the management we didn't. 12 Q. Ms. Harrington, did you ever discuss that with 13 the other receptionists? 14 A. You mean Sharon Needy? 15 Q. Yes, ma'am. 16 A. I don't remember. I don't recall discussing it 17 with her. 18 Q. Ms. Harrington, as the secretary in the 19 engineering department and as a fill-in receptionist, did you 20 ever have any contact with Joe Wesbecker before September 14, 21 1989? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Did you know him by sight at all, ma'am? 24 A. No. 25 Q. On September -- or let me ask you this, ma'am. 226 1 Where was your office in the building generally located? 2 A. On the third floor. Let's see, how can I 3 describe it. Probably maybe 100 feet or so from -- 100 and 4 maybe 20 feet from the reception area. 5 Q. All right. And do you know where Mr. Shea's 6 office was? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And where was it with relationship to the 9 receptionist's area? 10 A. It was -- right as soon as you went through the 11 door, his office was right on the right. 12 Q. Ms. Harrington, what times would you normally 13 get to work in the morning prior to September 14th, 1989? 14 A. I started at eight. 15 Q. And about what time did Mr. Shea arrive at work? 16 A. I'm not sure. I know that most of the time when 17 Mike was at work he would always come in early. He would 18 always be there before we did. 19 Q. Would he be there by 8:00? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And what about Mr. McCall? 22 A. He would, too, mostly. 23 Q. He would be there by 8:00? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Now, Ms. Harrington, let me show you a drawing 227 1 or a map of the third floor area and let me ask you if you 2 would, Ms. Harrington, to step down here beside me and beside 3 this drawing. Let me hand you this microphone. I think if 4 you hold it at about waist level it will be about the right 5 volume. I think if you hold it too close -- I'm giving 6 you-all kinds of instructions but let me ask you to stand on 7 that side and let me try to get you situated about this 8 drawing. This is off the third floor area at Standard 9 Gravure. 10 A. (Nods head affirmatively). 11 Q. And let me start you right here. Here's the 12 elevator that comes up from the Sixth Street entrance. 13 A. Okay. 14 Q. And this is the receptionist's area and behind 15 it, as you've just stated, is Mike Shea's office. Okay? 16 A. Right. 17 Q. Now, can you tell us generally where your office 18 and department was located? 19 A. Right here, engineering department. 20 Q. All right. Now, on September 14, 21 Ms. Harrington, you were there on duty at the time of these 22 shootings? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Would you tell us how you got to work that day? 25 A. I think I -- yeah, I did drive that day. Some 228 1 days I didn't, but I did that particular morning and I parked 2 in the back parking lot, which would probably be right in 3 here. 4 Q. Did you park in the Armory Place parking lot? 5 A. Right. Yes. 6 Q. Did you have an assigned place in there? 7 A. No. 8 Q. How did you get in there that day? 9 A. Well, my boss was the vice-president of 10 engineering and he was out of town a lot and they would always 11 let me use their spaces when they weren't there. And somebody 12 was always out of town, so generally I parked almost every day 13 when I drove. 14 Q. So you parked in the Armory Place parking lot? 15 A. Right. 16 Q. How did you enter the building that day? 17 A. Let me see. Okay. It had to be these steps 18 right here from the dock. 19 Q. Let me actually show you a drawing. I got you 20 started off on a drawing that's after you get upstairs. 21 Perfectly clear. Now, this is Sixth Street, that's the Sixth 22 Street entrance. This is Armory Place and this is the parking 23 lot and delivery area. 24 A. Right. So I would come up the steps, four steps 25 and then come up, yeah, these steps right here and move it all 229 1 the way up to the third floor and then come in the bindery 2 area. 3 Q. So you'd take that set of steps up to the third 4 floor and come in? 5 A. Come out through there. 6 Q. Was this a bindery area over here? 7 A. Uh-huh. 8 Q. And then how did you get from there to your 9 office? 10 A. I would come through this door right here once I 11 came up the steps. And when I came through that door, I would 12 just come right in through the double doors right here, and 13 then my desk was right there. 14 Q. Okay. Now, you arrived about what time that 15 day? 16 A. At eight. 17 Q. At eight? 18 A. Around eight, yeah. 19 Q. And you came to your desk in the engineering 20 department? 21 A. Right. 22 Q. And what do you recall after that? 23 A. I remember as always the first thing we would do 24 is get coffee after we went to our desk and the coffee machine 25 was right here and the copier -- because here's my desk and I 230 1 would just come through this little entranceway right here to 2 the coffee -- wasn't a machine, was like a coffeemaker. So we 3 got coffee. And I was standing -- there's a bulletin board 4 right on this wall. 5 Q. Yes, ma'am. 6 A. And we were standing there just talking and then 7 we heard something that we thought was like somebody dropped 8 some light bulbs and we thought, "What is that noise going on 9 up front," and that's when I saw Wesbecker come -- he was 10 walking in the long hallway right there and I saw him when he 11 got to the entrance of the conference room. 12 Q. All right. Now, let me back up for just a 13 minute. You're standing here beside the bulletin board? 14 A. Right. 15 Q. And you kept saying "we," who's "we"? 16 A. It was two of the engineers I worked for, Roy 17 Long and Jeff Hammond and it was the three of us, and then 18 after we heard the commotion, Pat Bigler, Mike Shea's 19 secretary, was at the copier making copies and she came around 20 to where we were standing, too, because she was wondering what 21 all the noise was. 22 Q. All right. Now, when you're standing there 23 beside the bulletin board and after you hear the noise, what 24 do you do? 25 A. Well, at that split second we said, "Well, let's 231 1 go up front and see what all the noise is about," and I turned 2 my head to the left and I saw Wesbecker and I said, "Oh, my 3 God, there's a man with a gun." And nobody else looked that 4 way and they said who was it. I said, "I don't know. I've 5 never seen him before, but I just know what I saw." So they 6 were standing there questioning me about what did he look like 7 and everything, and before I could really get through 8 explaining to them then we heard more gunshots and then we all 9 just -- all of us ran and hid in different places. 10 Q. Now, when you were standing near the bulletin 11 board, did you turn and walk down that hallway toward the 12 conference room? 13 A. Let me think. We were going to, but then when 14 we heard -- we never got through this entranceway because when 15 I spotted him and I was telling them what I saw, before we 16 could even come through the entrance he started shooting again 17 and so then everybody ran. 18 Q. All right. Now, as you're facing down this 19 hallway, is he walking from your right to your left or your 20 left to your right? Which way was he moving in that other 21 hallway? 22 A. He was -- I had to look to my left to see him 23 and he was going from my right going left. 24 Q. Can you show us which direction he was moving 25 when you saw him? 232 1 A. He was going straight down this hallway. He was 2 right here and I was all the way down here. 3 Q. When you saw him, what did he look like? 4 A. He just -- he looked really calm. I had never 5 seen him before. I remember he had glasses on and a jacket, I 6 think, and a shirt and he didn't look upset. He wasn't 7 running. He was just calmly walking with a gun at his side. 8 Q. Where did he have the gun, Ms. Harrington? 9 A. I think he had had it on the right side because 10 I couldn't see it -- the view I got from him was his left side 11 and I didn't see the whole gun, I just saw an extension of it, 12 so I'm assuming he had it on his right side. 13 Q. Do you recall anything about how he was carrying 14 the gun? 15 A. No. Just that -- at waist level, just walking. 16 Q. Did he have anything else with him that you 17 remember? 18 A. No. I don't remember seeing anything else. 19 Q. Did he turn and look at you? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And did he look in your direction? 22 A. Yes. He didn't turn his whole body, he just 23 turned his neck and looked my way and then he stopped for -- I 24 mean, he didn't stop. Then he turned his head to the right, 25 which the conference room was on his right, and just kept 233 1 walking. He never turned his body; he just turned his neck 2 and just kept going. I don't know why he didn't shoot at us 3 at the time. 4 Q. Did he point the gun at you? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Did he come down this hallway here that's marked 7 Second N/S toward you? 8 A. No. I didn't see him. If he did later I'm not 9 aware of it, but when I saw him he just kept walking straight. 10 Q. How was he walking? 11 A. Very slowly and calmly. 12 Q. Do you recall anything about how he was dressed, 13 Ms. Harrington? 14 A. No. He just -- I don't think he had pressroom 15 clothes on, just a pair of pants and a shirt and he may have 16 had a jacket on, but I don't remember now. I remembered at 17 the time, but I don't for sure now. 18 Q. Did you ever see him again after he passed that 19 area? 20 A. No. 21 Q. All right. Then where did you go, Ms. 22 Harrington? 23 A. I went in this -- this room right behind my desk 24 because it used to be an office but we converted it into a 25 storage area. So I hid in there with the other secretary that 234 1 was with me, Pat Bigler. 2 Q. All right. You can resume your seat and I'll 3 put this back down. Thank you. 4 Ms. Harrington, before this occurred on 5 September 14, 1989, were you ever given any information about 6 any threats from Joseph Wesbecker? 7 A. No. 8 Q. That's all I have. Thank you, ma'am. 9 JUDGE POTTER: Mr. Smith. 10 11 EXAMINATION ___________ 12 13 BY_MR._SMITH: __ ___ _____ 14 Q. There never had been any instances of violence 15 or anything of that nature prior to September 14th there at 16 Standard Gravure, had there, Ms. Harrington? 17 A. Not to my knowledge. 18 Q. You had not been assaulted there? 19 A. Oh, no. 20 Q. You had never seen a man with a gun on the 21 premises there? 22 A. No. 23 Q. You never feared for your own personal safety 24 while you were inside the premises? 25 A. No. 235 1 Q. How did you leave that area? 2 A. A couple policemen came and got me out and they 3 took us past -- we came past the copier and where we keep the 4 coffee and came through the accounting department, and then 5 they took us through the reception area where Sharon and 6 Angela were. 7 Q. All right. Were they still there, 8 Ms. Harrington? 9 A. Yes. Yes. 10 Q. Were the EMS people working on them at that 11 time? 12 A. Yes. He was working on Sharon at the time when 13 I went through. 14 Q. What were they doing? 15 A. I'm not sure what he was doing. Angela was 16 laying behind the desk and I don't know what he was doing to 17 Sharon. He was behind her and it looked like her eyes had 18 kind of rolled back in her head and I'm not sure exactly what 19 he was doing medically for her. 20 Q. Did she appear to still be alive at that time? 21 Was she moving? 22 A. No, she wasn't moving. But I really thought she 23 was alive at the time, but I thought maybe she had passed out 24 or something because her eyes had, like, rolled in the back of 25 her head or something. 236 1 Q. And where was Angela? 2 A. Angela was laying on the floor behind the 3 receptionist's desk. 4 Q. And did you say EMS personnel were not working 5 on her at the time? 6 A. No. When I came through they weren't. There 7 was just one EMS technician there and he was working on 8 Sharon. 9 Q. You had never seen Mr. Wesbecker there before? 10 A. No. 11 Q. You didn't work in personnel, you worked in 12 engineering; is that right, Ms. Harrington? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. When you were the receptionist, had there ever 15 been any problems with people coming in and stealing things 16 out of purses or anything of that nature? 17 A. Not to my knowledge. 18 Q. People from the street? And while you were the 19 receptionist, did you ever have any fear for your own personal 20 safety as you were sitting at the receptionist's desk where 21 Ms. Needy and Ms. Bowman were sitting? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Did you -- how much time did you actually have 24 to look at Mr. Wesbecker? 25 A. May have been like a split second. It was so 237 1 fast. 2 Q. As I understand it, you were looking down a 3 hall; is that right? 4 A. Right. 5 Q. And he was coming across another hall? 6 A. Right. Where they met. 7 Q. In other words, it would be like if he just 8 walked by in that doorway there by Marsha; is that right? 9 A. Right. It was where the two halls met, you 10 know, the opening there. 11 Q. And you say he was walking, he turned and 12 glanced at you, and then looked back forward? 13 A. After he looked at me, he paused for a second 14 and looked right in the conference room, and then he kept 15 walking straight. 16 Q. And did you see him do anything in connection 17 with the conference room? 18 A. He looked in there, you know. He didn't walk in 19 there but he looked, turned his head to the right and kind of 20 looked to see that no one was in there and kept walking 21 straight. 22 Q. And after that, he never walked into the 23 conference room? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Nor did he walk down your hall? 238 1 A. No. 2 Q. He continued walking down the hall? 3 A. Right. 4 Q. And you just had a split second to observe him; 5 is that right? 6 A. Right. 7 Q. In fact, none of the other people that were 8 standing around you got a look at him at all, did they? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Prior to the shooting of September 14th, you had 11 never heard or seen any reports about people threatening their 12 supervisors or carrying weapons onto the premises there at 13 Standard Gravure, had you? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Now, you got a walkie-talkie out after you got 16 in the room where you were hiding? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And what did you do with that walkie-talkie? 19 A. I turned it on so I could hear what was going on 20 because the engineers I worked for always carry them and the 21 guard had one, too. 22 Q. And what did you hear, Ms. Harrington? 23 A. I heard Roy Long on there calling the guard 24 asking him where was EMS and what was taking so long because 25 he said, "We got people in here bleeding to death and where 239 1 are they, what's taking so long for them to get here," and 2 that's all I heard him tell them. 3 Q. Did you get the impression that there was police 4 officers already at the scene, whether or not they were in the 5 building or not, but that police were already there? 6 A. No. 7 Q. All right. You think the police had been 8 called? 9 A. Yes, because I think it was -- no, it was right 10 after I ran into the storage area, one of the salesmen, Bob 11 Hentchell, used my phone to call 911. 12 Q. All right. And did he tell you that he had 13 gotten the police? 14 A. I heard him talking to them, so I'm assuming he 15 reached. 16 Q. And did they say that they had already been 17 notified or did you get the impression that they were the 18 first -- Mr. Hentchell was the first to notify them? 19 A. I don't know. I don't know if he was the first 20 one or not. I just know he contacted them. 21 Q. All right. Did you hear Mr. Aabrams say 22 anything over the walkie-talkie, the guard? 23 A. Yes. I'm trying to remember. I remember him 24 saying that, you know, 911 had been called and that he had 25 tried to get hold of Grady Throneberry and he couldn't reach 240 1 him, which was our safety manager. 2 Q. Did you know that Mr. Aabrams had been there in 3 the stairwell off the reception area right at the time that 4 Angela and Sharon were shot? 5 A. No, I didn't. 6 Q. And that he had already called the police by 7 that time? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Thank you, Ms. Harrington. Appreciate it. 10 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much, ma'am. You 11 may step down; you're excused. 12 Mr. Stopher, do you want to call your next 13 witness? 14 MR. STOPHER: Judge, may we approach the bench 15 for just a second? 16 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 17 MR. STOPHER: I've got another witness here. I 18 can bring her back in the morning. You want to go ahead? 19 JUDGE POTTER: Yeah. 20 MR. SMITH: He's a working judge, what we call 21 in Texas. 22 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 23 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, we call Jo Anne Self. 24 JUDGE POTTER: Ma'am, could I get you to step up 25 here and raise your right hand. 241 1 JO ANNE SELF, after first being duly sworn, was 2 examined and testified as follows: 3 4 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Would you have a walk 5 around and sit in the witness chair there. Would you state 6 your name loud and clearly and then spell it for me, please. 7 MS. SELF: My name is Jo Anne Self. J-O, 8 capital A-N-N-E, S-E-L-F. 9 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. And answer Mr. Stopher's 10 questions. 11 12 EXAMINATION ___________ 13 14 BY_MR._STOPHER: __ ___ _______ 15 Q. Ms. Self, where do you presently live? 16 A. I live at 6003 Count Turf Drive, Louisville. 17 Q. And by whom are you employed? 18 A. I'm employed by Riverport Imaging Corporation. 19 Q. And who owns Riverport Imaging Corporation? 20 A. Shea Communications. 21 Q. And who owns Shea Communications? 22 A. Michael Shea. 23 Q. What is your present capacity with Riverport 24 Imaging? 25 A. I'm the payroll supervisor. 242 1 Q. Ms. Self, have you ever been employed by 2 Standard Gravure? 3 A. Yes, I have. 4 Q. And when were you employed by Standard? 5 A. From 1981 to 1992. 6 Q. And in 1992, why did you stop working at 7 Standard? 8 A. They closed Standard Gravure. 9 Q. When did you go to Riverport Imaging? 10 A. When Standard Gravure closed. 11 Q. And you've been there ever since? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Just briefly, what is Riverport Imaging? What 14 does Mr. Shea have done there? 15 A. It's a pre-press operation. They provide film 16 to different printers. 17 Q. And where is Riverport Imaging located? 18 A. It's located at -- on Cane Run Road. 19 Q. Here in Louisville? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Ms. Self, back in the period of time from 1981 22 to 1992, when you were with Standard Gravure, what was your 23 job title there? 24 A. Payroll supervisor. 25 Q. And as payroll supervisor, I think maybe we all 243 1 know the answer to this, but what generally did you do? 2 A. I did payroll for four companies and also did 3 their taxes, all the withholding taxes. 4 Q. Ms. Self, did you do the payroll for Standard 5 Gravure? 6 A. Yes, I did. 7 Q. And I realize that the number may have varied, 8 but approximately how many people were employed at Standard 9 Gravure in the 1980s? 10 A. There were approximately 700 when I went there 11 in 1981. 12 Q. Did the number go up or down? 13 A. It went down. 14 Q. What was the least number of people there before 15 the shootings occurred on September 14, 1989? 16 A. I would say a little under 400. 17 Q. Would that include management personnel as well 18 as production personnel? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. That would be everybody from Mr. Shea to the 21 newest hire? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Ms. Self, let me first of all direct your 24 attention to September 14, 1989, and let me ask you if you 25 were there at the time that these shootings occurred. 244 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Ms. Self, can you tell us how you got to work 3 that day? 4 A. I drove my car. 5 Q. And do you recall where you parked? 6 A. Yes. I parked where I normally park, on Sixth 7 Street across Broadway. 8 Q. And Sixth Street makes a cross intersection with 9 Broadway? 10 A. Right. 11 Q. Which side of Sixth and Broadway were you 12 located on? 13 A. I guess it would be the south side. 14 Q. Away from Standard Gravure on the opposite side? 15 A. Right. Uh-huh. 16 Q. I assume you walked from there to the Standard 17 building? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And how did you enter? 20 A. Through the Sixth Street door. 21 Q. Sixth Street entrance? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Now, Ms. Self, let me show you a diagram and ask 24 you if you can help us out as to where you were located at 25 that time. Let me ask you, if you would, to step down here. 245 1 And let me ask you to step over this way and I'm going to hand 2 you a microphone so that everybody can hear you. If you hold 3 that at about waist level, it will pick up your voice real 4 well. 5 A. Okay. 6 Q. All right. Let me just pull this just a little 7 bit closer. Now, let me try to get you squared away as to 8 what the directions are on this map. This is the third floor 9 and this X shows the elevator and this is the reception area 10 and this is Mike Shea's office just behind it. Does that kind 11 of get you -- 12 A. Yes. I recognize that. 13 Q. -- based now as to where you were and where your 14 office was? 15 A. Uh-huh. 16 Q. Can you use this diagram and show us where your 17 office was located? 18 A. You've got it labeled Tom Schuster. 19 Q. But that was really your office? 20 A. That was really me. 21 Q. Mislabeled Tom Schuster by me? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And it should say Jo Anne Self? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And Terri Dattilo and Pat Bigler were next to 246 1 you? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Was there anybody else in your office? 4 A. No. 5 Q. That was your office alone? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. All right. Now, when you came in on September 8 14, 1989, about what time did you get there, Ms. Self? 9 A. 7:30. 10 Q. And did you stay in your office? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Ms. Self, what was the first thing that was out 13 of the ordinary that morning? 14 A. I heard what I thought was light bulbs popping, 15 and I came out of my office to see what it was. 16 Q. And where did you -- would you use this diagram 17 and show us what you did when you got out of your office and 18 where you went? 19 A. Yes. I came out my office and stood here for a 20 minute, and Mr. Wesbecker was approximately right here in 21 front of Mike Shea's door. And I didn't realize what he was 22 doing until he fired down the hall, and that's when I turned 23 and ran this way and came down into this office that you've 24 got listed as Copeland. 25 Q. Let me go back. When you stepped out of your 247 1 office, you stepped into the middle of this hallway? 2 MS. ZETTLER: Objection, leading, Your Honor. 3 JUDGE POTTER: Sustained. 4 Q. When you stepped out of your office, where did 5 you go, again, ma'am? 6 A. I stepped out right here. 7 Q. How far away would that have been from Mr. 8 Wesbecker? 9 A. I'd guess maybe 20 feet. 10 Q. What was he doing at the time you first stepped 11 out there? 12 A. He was -- from what I can remember, he was 13 facing Mike Shea's office. 14 Q. Facing it? 15 A. Yes. His face was turned towards Mike Shea's 16 office, but he was kind of walking straight down this hallway. 17 Q. All right. When you saw him had he already come 18 out of the reception area? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And when you saw him, how fast or how slow was 21 he moving? 22 A. He wasn't running; he was just deliberately 23 walking. 24 Q. You saw him turn toward Mike Shea's office or 25 into Mike Shea's office? 248 1 A. When I stepped out of the office his face was 2 that -- headed that direction. I believe he was looking for 3 Mike. 4 Q. Did you say anything or do anything at that 5 point? 6 A. No. I just froze. 7 Q. Did he turn and look at you? 8 A. No. His attention seemed to be down this 9 hallway because he fired a shot down the hall as I was 10 standing there. 11 Q. And that's when you decided to run? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Did he ever follow you down this hallway marked 14 First N/S Hallway? 15 A. No. Not that I was aware of. 16 Q. And where did you go then, Ms. Self? 17 A. I ran around this corner into this office that 18 you've marked Copeland's, but that's not Copeland's office. 19 Q. Whose office should it be marked? 20 A. That was Mike Delph's office. 21 Q. And did you stay in there? 22 A. Yes. Mike and I got under a desk in that 23 office. 24 Q. Ms. Self, did you have a chance to see 25 Mr. Wesbecker's face or eyes? 249 1 A. Not that I remember. 2 Q. His face was turned to the right and you were 3 off to the left? 4 MS. ZETTLER: Your Honor, object to his 5 continued leading of this Witness. 6 JUDGE POTTER: Sustained, Mr. Stopher. 7 Q. Did you have a chance to see his face? 8 A. No. I didn't look into his face. The only time 9 I saw him was when he was faced -- when he started down the 10 hall. 11 Q. You can resume your seat then, Ms. Self. 12 Ms. Self, let me hand you a document and ask you 13 if you can identify this for me, please. It's several pages. 14 It's been marked as Defendant's Exhibit 302. Do you recognize 15 this, Ms. Self? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Can you tell us in general terms what it is? 18 A. It's a calculation for Mr. Wesbecker's long-term 19 disability payments. 20 MR. STOPHER: Your Honor, we would move the 21 admission of Defendant's Exhibit 302 and ask that it be 22 published to the jury. 23 JUDGE POTTER: Be admitted. 24 MS. ZETTLER: Your Honor, can we approach just 25 real quick? 250 1 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. 2 (BENCH DISCUSSION) 3 MS. ZETTLER: I have no objection, per se, to 4 this, Judge. I don't think he's established that all three of 5 these things are the same. I think she's talking about the 6 first page here. As long as he clarifies that, I have no 7 objection. 8 MR. STOPHER: Sure. 9 (BENCH DISCUSSION CONCLUDED) 10 Q. Ms. Self, can you identify all three pages of 11 this document? For example, what's the first page, just 12 generally? 13 A. It's the information that I gave to Paula Warman 14 for long-term disability calculation. 15 Q. What's the second page, just generally? 16 A. Those are Paula's calculations. 17 Q. About what? 18 A. About his long-term disability payments. 19 Q. And what's the third page? 20 A. Is the information I furnished to Paula. 21 Q. About what? 22 A. About -- for his long-term disability 23 calculation. 24 Q. Your Honor, we again ask that this be marked and 25 filed as Defendant's Exhibit 302 and published to the jury. 251 1 MS. ZETTLER: No objection, Your Honor. 2 JUDGE POTTER: Be admitted. 3 SHERIFF CECIL: (Hands document to jurors). 4 Q. Ms. Self, let me ask you just in general terms 5 to tell us, first of all, what is sick pay? 6 A. Sick pay was a company supplement we made for 7 people that were off on a personal illness. 8 Q. And when did it begin? 9 A. Well, it would depend on if they were 10 hospitalized or if they weren't. 11 Q. If they were hospitalized, when would it begin? 12 A. The first day. 13 Q. If they weren't hospitalized, when would it 14 begin? 15 A. They would have three days of waiting. 16 Q. And then after three days of waiting, sick pay 17 would start? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. How long would sick pay go? 20 A. They had ten days of full pay, then they had ten 21 days of waiting time. 22 Q. No pay? 23 A. No pay. And then they went into half pay for up 24 to six months total. 25 Q. All right. On the average, then, without 252 1 getting too terribly technical about it, sick pay would be 2 approximately half pay for six months? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Ms. Self, in looking at this document on Page 2, 5 I see some calculations there about 1987 BAC and so forth; do 6 you see those numbers? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And 1988 current rate and that sort of thing? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Without getting too technical again, how much 11 was Wesbecker making per year at Standard Gravure in 1988 or 12 1987? 13 A. I would say about 25,000 on his BAC. 14 Q. And then the sick pay would be how much of that, 15 approximately? 16 A. I can't calculate that in my head. 17 Q. Fifty percent or roughly one-half of twenty-five 18 thousand? 19 A. Approximately. 20 Q. It looks like here it says, "First six months 21 $1,069.34;" is that right? 22 MS. ZETTLER: I'm going to object to his leading 23 her again. If she knows what this is, she can testify to it. 24 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. Sustained. 25 A. These are Paula's figures, and I'm really not 253 1 that familiar with the way she calculated it. 2 Q. The first six months there would be sick pay? 3 A. On a sick leave, yes. 4 Q. All right. And what about after that if the 5 individual like Mr. Wesbecker was on LTD, or long-term 6 disability? 7 A. There was no pay from the company. It came from 8 an insurance company. 9 Q. And how was that calculated? 10 A. I have no idea. 11 Q. I notice on here it says on Page 2, second six 12 months, $391.21. Do you see that? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Do you know what that relates to? 15 A. No, I don't. 16 Q. No idea? 17 A. No. 18 Q. On the first page of the document, it says, 19 "Last day sick pay, February 17, 1989"? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Is that in your handwriting? 22 A. No. That's Paula's. 23 Q. At the bottom it says, "LTD begins 3-22-89." 24 A. That's Paula's. 25 Q. That's Paula's. Is any of this in your 254 1 handwriting, ma'am? 2 A. The third page is my handwriting. 3 Q. The third page and it's titled, "Joseph T. 4 Wesbecker, last day worked 8-6-88"? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And then it says 1987 BAC? 7 A. That's correct. 8 Q. What does that mean? 9 A. That's what he had earned on his basic annual 10 compensation. 11 Q. And then it says current rate and then it looks 12 like 12.518? 13 A. That was his hourly union rate. 14 Q. Twelve dollars and fifty-one point eight cents? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Then it says 1,055 and then it looks like hours? 17 A. Yes. That's how many BAC hours he had that 18 year. 19 Q. That would be the last year that he worked full; 20 correct? 21 A. Correct. 22 Q. Ms. Self, when Mr. Wesbecker went out on 23 disability, did you ever have any contact with him? 24 A. I had contact with him before he went on 25 disability. 255 1 Q. Let me start there then. What sort of contact 2 did you have with him before then? 3 A. When he went on sick leave. 4 Q. And when did he go on sick leave? 5 A. I don't remember the exact date. It would have 6 been six months before the 2-17. 7 Q. According to this, the last day he worked, in 8 your handwriting, was 8-16-88. 9 A. Yes. That was his last day worked. 10 Q. So did you have contact with him from 8-6-88 to 11 2-17-88? 12 A. Only -- he was in my office one time. 13 Q. What do you recall about that occasion? 14 A. He just was concerned about what he was going to 15 be paid and what deductions I'd take out of his company 16 supplement. 17 Q. What deductions did you explain to him that 18 you'd be taking out? 19 A. Just mandatory deductions. I had explained to 20 him that he if was in the TIP plan or if he was in the credit 21 union, those deductions that were not an obligation, that he 22 could cancel while he was on sick pay. 23 Q. When you said he was concerned about the amount, 24 did you go over the amounts with him? 25 A. Yes. I explained to him what the amount of his 256 1 pay would be. 2 Q. Both sick pay and LTD? 3 A. I didn't have anything to do with the LTD. 4 Q. So his concern was only about sick pay at that 5 point in time? 6 A. At that point. 7 Q. Is that the only time that you ever met with him 8 or saw him before September 14, 1989? 9 A. I probably had seen him in the pressroom, but as 10 far as personal contact, that's the only one I remember. 11 Q. Thank you, Ms. Self. 12 Your Honor, we do move the admission of -- I 13 think it's already been moved. 14 JUDGE POTTER: 302 is in. 15 MR. STOPHER: Thank you, sir. 16 JUDGE POTTER: Ms. Zettler. 17 18 EXAMINATION ___________ 19 20 BY_MS._ZETTLER: __ ___ ________ 21 Q. Hi, Ms. Self. I just have a couple. This time 22 that you met with Mr. Wesbecker, that was about his sick pay; 23 correct? 24 A. That's correct. 25 Q. Wasn't his main concern at that time what the 257 1 timing of his check would be, whether he would get them weekly 2 or monthly? 3 A. Well, he was concerned about how much they would 4 be, what kind of deductions that I would take out of it and 5 how often they would come. 6 Q. Okay. And how did he act during that meeting? 7 Did he act unusual at all? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Was he hostile towards you? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Was he irritated or agitated, that you could 12 tell? 13 A. No. I'd say he was just concerned. 14 Q. Okay. Was he any different than any other 15 employee that you had dealt with in that situation before? 16 A. No. 17 Q. That's all I have. Thank you. 18 JUDGE POTTER: Thank you very much. You may 19 step down; you're excused. 20 Ladies and gentlemen, I'm going to take the 21 evening recess, and because you came in early this morning 22 you'll get an extra half hour to vote tomorrow. Is there 23 anybody that feels they either can't vote after we leave at 24 5:00 or couldn't get their vote in before and be here at 9:30? 25 I'm going to give you the same admonition I've 258 1 given you before. Do not permit anybody to speak to or 2 communicate with you on any topic connected with this trial, 3 and that includes the media. Do not discuss it among 4 yourselves and do not form or express opinions about it. 5 We'll stand in recess till 9:30 tomorrow morning. 6 (JURORS EXCUSED; HEARING IN CHAMBERS) 7 JUDGE POTTER: What do I need to read to look at 8 440 on McCall? 9 MR. STOPHER: All right, Judge. This one I'm 10 willing to concede on. He said it in his deposition, but he 11 did not say it at the trial. He said it a different way and I 12 don't think it's close enough. So you can strike out 440, 3 13 through 24. 14 JUDGE POTTER: How about 443 through 446? 15 MR. STOPHER: Now, sir, this relates to Mr. Cox 16 and here's what he said at trial. 17 MS. ZETTLER: Can I get a page? 18 JUDGE POTTER: It looks like it's Page 176 and I 19 don't know a day. It starts with, "Question: And when you 20 got that information, sir, what did you do with it." 21 MS. ZETTLER: Okay. 22 JUDGE POTTER: All right, Ms. Zettler, I'm going 23 to overrule the objection. His questions may be a little bit 24 garbled, but they're enough to bring out in Mr. McCall that 25 he's flat denying that any of this information ever got that 259 1 high. 2 MS. ZETTLER: Okay. Well, we object to his 3 editorializing on adding Mr. McKeown's name and also saying 4 that Lucas told him specifically that Mr. Cox was Number One 5 on his list. Also, there's other things in here that Don 6 Frazier -- that Mr. Wesbecker on long-term disability told Don 7 Frazier that things were not going well, et cetera, et cetera, 8 which isn't covered by the Cox testimony. Same thing with 9 Gosling on 446. 10 JUDGE POTTER: I understand. 472. What am I 11 supposed to read on that, Mr. Stopher? 12 MR. STOPHER: Let me go back on Page 443; right? 13 JUDGE POTTER: I'm going to let it all in. I'm 14 going to overrule her objections to that series. 446, 16 15 through 25. 16 MS. ZETTLER: With the understanding that they 17 still haven't shown you what Gosling said. 18 JUDGE POTTER: Maybe there's a whole other batch 19 of it. I just got that he's denying. 20 MR. STOPHER: 445, 1, just a follow-up. All 21 right. Okay. 22 MS. ZETTLER: The end of 443 -- 23 JUDGE POTTER: Let's face it. We have a flying 24 airplane -- at every turn in this case somebody puts in a 25 flying airplane. I really think the flying airplane was at 260 1 the end, but there are people out there that testified that 2 they heard about it years before, days before, months before. 3 MS. ZETTLER: I'm not as concerned about that. 4 I'm concerned about this part that starts at the bottom of 5 443, Judge. February of 1988, a year and a half before these 6 shootings, James Popham told Charles Metten that Wesbecker had 7 specifically threatened him with a gun. Not only is it triple 8 hearsay, it starts at the bottom of 443, last couple of lines; 9 it's after the thing about documents, and goes on to say that 10 Popham told Metten that Wesbecker said. 11 JUDGE POTTER: I mean, aren't we agreeing that 12 at one point he brought in a gun, he showed it to somebody and 13 made some threats? 14 MR. STOPHER: Right. 15 MS. ZETTLER: What he's trying to do here is 16 make it sound like it's three or four different threats. It's 17 confusing and prejudicial. 18 JUDGE POTTER: Okay. I'm still going to let 19 that series in. What do I need to read on 472? 20 MR. MYERS: That's the reference to Mr. Lampton, 21 Your Honor. 22 JUDGE POTTER: You were going to get me some 23 trial testimony. 24 MR. STOPHER: He hasn't testified, yet, Judge. 25 And let me see if I can give you the right -- Your Honor, in 261 1 light of the time and everything else, I'm trying to get this 2 done, I'll just agree to pull that out, 472 through 474. 3 JUDGE POTTER: Have you got any other live 4 people, because I am concerned tomorrow that these people will 5 collapse down, and I apologize to you for my not being as 6 energetic as I should be. 7 MR. STOPHER: No. That's fine. I understand 8 completely. I hope I'm not there before the trial is over, 9 and if I am, I hope I get a little slack, as well. I think 10 the deposition of McCall will take two and a half hours, 11 Judge. I'm guessing as to what's in and what's out, but 12 that's probably going to take up the morning. I think it was 13 Sowders that was listed for the morning. 14 MS. ZETTLER: Luke Stephens. 15 MR. STOPHER: Luke Stephens, there we go. Then 16 I will attempt to call for tomorrow afternoon and get them to 17 come in, the funeral director and the gun dealers. And if I 18 can get them to come... 19 JUDGE POTTER: Then that will do it. 20 MS. ZETTLER: We have one more quick issue that 21 we'd like to raise. Just before we walked in here, Mr. Myers 22 handed Mr. Smith some documents that are allegedly going to be 23 used for the Fuller testimony. 24 MR. MYERS: They're not going to be exhibits; 25 they're going to be demonstrative evidence. 262 1 MS. ZETTLER: This is the second time they 2 pulled a document out that they didn't produce to us prior to 3 trial. 4 JUDGE POTTER: Let me see what it is. 5 MR. SMITH: I gave it to Amy and she took it 6 back. 7 MR. MYERS: They are a number of acetates that 8 reference animal studies that Doctor Fuller's going to talk 9 about during the course of his testimony and what was found in 10 certain animal studies using fluoxetine. 11 JUDGE POTTER: And these are animal studies that 12 he's talked about before? 13 MR. MYERS: Either that he's done himself or 14 that he relies upon in support of his testimony. 15 MS. ZETTLER: We haven't had a chance to take a 16 look at those, Judge, and I'd like the opportunity to object 17 to him referring to animal studies that he did not use during 18 his deposition or that have not been used before and have not 19 been disclosed. 20 JUDGE POTTER: If what he's talking about is 21 something no better than just a list of things that, you know, 22 like Mr. Stopher could have written up on his bulletin board 23 as he goes along and it's just for him to put up there while 24 he's testifying, even if they haven't produced it before, you 25 know... 263 1 MS. ZETTLER: That's not my problem. If that's 2 the case, that's fine. My problem is they have produced for 3 us literally this many documents prior to trial that they were 4 planning on using. Okay? They pulled a document on Doctor 5 Lord that they didn't tell us they were going to use. 6 JUDGE POTTER: Which one was that? 7 MS. ZETTLER: That was the thing that they were 8 trying to get her to say concomitant medications were fine. 9 My problem is if they were planning on using something at 10 trial, they should have produced it prior, to give us an 11 opportunity to look at it, et cetera. Remember before when we 12 were talking about Germany and all that a few months back, I 13 raised the concern that there were going to be documents that 14 would be pulled on us that we had not seen before, and I think 15 this is the beginning, and I just want to put the Court on 16 notice that this may be the beginning. 17 JUDGE POTTER: Go through your stack and then if 18 there are -- 19 MR. MYERS: In response to that, Judge, all 20 these are demonstrative and will aid him in explaining to the 21 jury. We're not going to offer them into evidence. 22 JUDGE POTTER: All I know is I've got one 23 picture, which is a list of 12 articles, and even if you 24 haven't complied with the rules you might get that in. 25 Another picture I have in my mind is the articles themselves 264 1 that he never mentioned in his deposition and maybe you-all 2 have refused to produce because they were in Germany. I don't 3 know about that fact. We'll just have to take it up -- when 4 is Mr. Fuller due to be here? 5 MR. MYERS: Wednesday. 6 JUDGE POTTER: Let's do Mr. Shea tomorrow 7 morning. Ms. Zettler, I owe you an apology. I could have 8 been here at eight and it slipped my mind. I really do think 9 we had it set up for eight. Why don't we meet here at eight 10 tomorrow, get a good start on Shea and then at five o'clock 11 we'll take up Mr. Fuller, if you-all don't have any problems 12 with it. 13 MS. ZETTLER: That's fine. We'll have a chance 14 to take a look at that stuff then. 15 MR. STOPHER: Let me see if I can save us some 16 time. We're not going to play Shea tomorrow, in any event. 17 MS. ZETTLER: But we have to go through and do 18 the objections. 19 MR. STOPHER: It might be several days following 20 before we get back to Mr. Shea, so I think that's kind of a 21 waste of your time. I think I'd like to try to work on 22 getting these people in here tomorrow afternoon so we don't 23 lose any time tomorrow in front of the jury, and I think we'll 24 get back to Shea's deposition when it's better for you and 25 makes more sense from our standpoint. 265 1 MS. ZETTLER: That's fine with us. 2 JUDGE POTTER: Will you go over Mr. Fuller's 3 things so if we need to thrash it out tomorrow night we can? 4 He's live; right? 5 MS. ZETTLER: Right. 6 (PROCEEDINGS TERMINATED THIS DATE AT 5:35 P.M.) 7 * * * 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 266 1 STATE OF KENTUCKY )( )( Sct. 2 COUNTY OF JEFFERSON )( 3 I, JULIA K. McBRIDE, Notary Public, State of 4 Kentucky at Large, hereby certify that the foregoing 5 Transcript of the Proceedings was taken at the time and place 6 stated in the caption; that the appearances were as set forth 7 in the caption; that prior to giving testimony the witnesses 8 were first duly sworn; that said testimony was taken down by 9 me in stenographic notes and thereafter reduced under my 10 supervision to the foregoing typewritten pages and that said 11 typewritten transcript is a true, accurate and complete record 12 of my stenographic notes so taken. 13 I further certify that I am not related by blood 14 or marriage to any of the parties hereto and that I have no 15 interest in the outcome of captioned case. 16 My commission as Notary Public expires 17 December 21, 1996. 18 Given under my hand this the__________day of 19 ______________________, 1994, at Louisville, Kentucky. 20 21 22 23 24 _____________________________ 25 NOTARY PUBLIC 267 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25