1 1 2 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 3 FOR THE DISTRICT OF WYOMING 4 Civil Action No. 00_CV_025D 5 6 ________________________________________________________ 7 THE ESTATES OF DEBORAH MARIE TOBIN and ALYSSA ANN TOBIN, 8 Deceased, by TIMOTHY JOHN TOBIN, Personal Representative; and THE 9 ESTATES OF DONALD JACK SCHELL and RITA CHARLOTTE SCHELL, 10 Deceased, by NEVA KAY HARDY, Personal Representative, 11 Plaintiffs, 12 v. 13 SMITHKLINE BEECHAM 14 PHARMACEUTICALS, 15 Defendant. 16 ________________________________________________________ 17 18 DEPOSITION OF MICHAEL SCHELL 19 Taken in behalf of Defendant 20 9:00 a.m., Thursday December 7, 2000 21 22 PURSUANT TO NOTICE, the deposition of Michael Schell was taken in accordance with the applicable 23 Federal Rules of Civil Procedure at the Campbell County Courthouse, Gillette, Wyoming, before John E. Walz, a 24 Registered Merit Reporter and a Notary Public of the State of Wyoming. 25 2 1 A P P E A R A N C E S 2 For the Plaintiffs: Mr. ANDY VICKERY Attorney at Law 3 Vickery & Waldner 2929 Allen Parkway, Suite 2410 4 Houston, Texas 77019 5 Mr. JAMES E. FITZGERALD Attorney at Law 6 The Fitzgerald Law Firm 2108 Warren Avenue 7 Cheyenne, Wyoming 82001_3740 8 For the Defendant: Mr. THOMAS GORMAN Attorney at Law 9 Hirst & Applegate 1720 Carey Avenue, Suite 200 10 P.O. Box 1083 Cheyenne, Wyoming 82003_1083 11 Mr. CHARLES F. PREUSS 12 Attorney at Law Preuss, Schanacher, Zvoleff & 13 Zimmer 225 Bush Street, 15th Floor 14 San Francisco, CA 94104_4207 15 16 17 18 I N D E X 19 PAGE 20 DEPOSITION OF MICHAEL SCHELL: 21 Examination By Mr. Preuss 3 22 By Mr. Vickery 117 23 24 25 3 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 MICHAEL SCHELL, 3 called for examination by the defendant, being first 4 duly sworn, on his oath testified as follows: 5 EXAMINATION 6 BY MR. PREUSS: 7 Q. Good morning, Mr. Schell. My name is Chuck 8 Preuss. We met yesterday. And I represent, along with 9 Tom Gorman, the defendant, SmithKline, in this case. 10 We're going to be talking about the circumstances 11 surrounding your parents' and sister's death. And I 12 know that's a difficult and sensitive issue, so at any 13 time you feel that you would like to take a break and 14 collect yourself, please let us know at any time. 15 If you have any lack of understanding of a 16 question I might ask you or like me to clarify it, 17 please let me know and I'll do the best I can on that. 18 Is there any reason why you feel that we 19 cannot proceed today? 20 A. No, sir. 21 Q. Are you under any medications at present? 22 A. No, sir. 23 Q. Did you review any written material at all for 24 today's deposition? 25 A. Written? No, not necessarily, I didn't. 4 1 Q. Have you ever read any written material 2 pertaining to the circumstances surrounding your 3 parents' death? 4 A. Ever? No, actually, not much, not a whole 5 heck of a lot. I asked for a police report, but I 6 couldn't get them. I was going to at one time. And 7 insurance reports and lawyer reports and bills and stuff 8 I got there for a while, but I'm not sure about __ not 9 much on right about their deaths. 10 Q. You never read the police reports? 11 A. No. I couldn't get one from Gillette. I went 12 down and asked them, and they didn't want to give me one 13 right offhand without going through a couple more 14 people, and I never did make it. 15 Q. So do you have any specific recollection here 16 this morning whether you ever read any written material 17 that discusses in any way what happened in February of 18 1998? 19 A. No. In fact, I haven't. To tell you the 20 truth, I learned a lot yesterday. It took me that long 21 to hear these details, too, that Flo knew yesterday. 22 Q. You mean yesterday when you were here when 23 your grandma __ 24 A. Yeah. 25 Q. __ gave her deposition. Is that right? 5 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. Where do you reside, sir? 3 A. Where? 4 Q. Where do you reside? 5 A. Unemployed right now. I work on a ranch, a 6 ranch hand or three rentals the girlfriend has out. 7 Q. You indicated that you don't have a job at 8 present. Is that right? 9 A. No, sir. 10 Q. When is the last job that you have had? 11 A. Colorado, two years ago. 12 Q. Right before you learned of your parents' 13 death? 14 A. For a fulltime job, yes. I have been doing 15 parttime things here and there, but that was my last 16 fulltime job. 17 Q. Your last fulltime job was with what 18 employer? 19 A. Lakewood Electric. 20 Q. Who was your supervisor there? 21 A. John McCord. 22 Q. His last name again, please? 23 A. McCord, M_c_O_r_d. 24 Q. C_o_r_d? 25 A. Yeah, C_o_r_d, something like that. 6 1 Q. And what was the address of Lakewood 2 Electric? 3 A. I have it in my wallet, I imagine, if you want 4 me to look it up. It's in Englewood. 5 Q. Englewood? 6 A. Colorado. I could give you a box or street 7 number here. 8 I guess I don't have it with me today. 9 Thought I might. 10 Q. How long were you employed by Lakewood? 11 A. Six years. 12 Q. And you were employed as an electrician? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. Do you need any kind of license in Colorado to 15 practice as a __ 16 A. Yeah. 17 Q. __ electrician? 18 A. We were working on bigger construction, 19 commercial type jobs where they had probably as many as 20 20 hands working on a building at one time. And so it 21 was actually more in the construction end of it than 22 troubleshooting electricians. 23 Q. Did you have a license issued by the State of 24 Colorado? 25 A. In fact, I didn't, before I left there, the 7 1 ASI, which is a national test. 2 Q. But you had not taken that test yet? 3 A. Took it but I didn't pass it. 4 Q. If you do pass the test, what kinds of things 5 can you do in the electrical area that you can't do if 6 you don't have a license? 7 A. Well, I think they let you run a hand in a 8 construction trade or two, a couple hands. I think you 9 can take two hands with you or something is all. They 10 were paying me pretty good at the time, so it wasn't 11 pressuring me to get it is why I neglected to. 12 Q. Now, my understanding is that you left that 13 job shortly before you were notified of your parents' 14 death. Is that correct? 15 A. Yeah. 16 Q. Were you laid off, or what happened? 17 A. A combination of me quitting and laying me 18 off. My apartment had gotten robbed one morning when I 19 was going to work an hour before everyone else. We had 20 a six o'clock show_up time. And I didn't want to do 21 that hour. I got robbed. And I quit showing up for 22 work a lot of days and they run me off. And I had 23 applied for another job and was lined out to start 24 Monday of that weekend that that all happened. 25 Q. The Monday after that. 8 1 A. Yes, with MBR, in fact, if you want to check 2 to see if they have an application. 3 Q. MBR is another electrical company? 4 A. First application I applied with after 5 Lakewood, and they said since I was there for six years, 6 they hired me right on. 7 Q. So you had __ you already had a job that you 8 were scheduled to start the following Monday __? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. __ of the weekend in February of 1998? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. And who was the individual who hired you at 13 MBR? 14 A. That name I don't know right offhand. I 15 imagine they have records in their office, though. 16 Q. Is MBR also in Englewood? 17 A. Westminster, Colorado. 18 Q. Now, as I understand it, your job with 19 Lakewood ended because, sometime before February of 20 1998, you had gotten robbed one time on your way to 21 work, which was supposed to start at 6:00 a.m. Is that 22 right? 23 A. Yeah. 24 Q. Okay. And as a result of that, you were 25 nervous about going to work that early in the morning 9 1 and came in later? 2 A. Yeah. I started doing something like that to 3 them. 4 Q. And because you were coming in late, your boss 5 was unhappy, I take it. 6 A. Yeah. 7 Q. And your boss said, "Either you get here on 8 time or we're going to let you go"? 9 A. Yeah. 10 Q. And eventually he let you go. 11 A. Yeah. 12 Q. When did the robbery occur relative to the 13 time you got let go? 14 A. Well, I was leaving about 5:15 in the morning, 15 so it was still dark for a hour or two. And I think 16 they got me in the morning hour when it was still dark, 17 because none of the neighbors even noticed it. 18 Q. Okay. What I __ well, withdraw that. Were 19 you robbed personally or did somebody break into your 20 house? 21 A. They pried my door open. I think they crawled 22 in through a window and took tools and clothes and my 23 CDs. 24 Q. And this was after you had left early in the 25 morning. Is that right? 10 1 A. Yeah, already on my way to work. 2 Q. When did the robbery occur relative to when 3 you stopped working for Lakewood? 4 A. When I stopped? 5 Q. Was it days or weeks or months? 6 A. About a year before that. 7 Q. About a year? 8 A. It took me about a year to get in trouble. In 9 fact, they would probably still put in a decent report 10 for me. I'm not on that bad of terms with them either. 11 Q. Was the robbery reported to the Westminster 12 police? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. Does Westminster have more than one station or 15 is there just one police station there? 16 A. I'm not real sure of that right offhand. I 17 think they have a couple little ones. I'm not sure. 18 Q. Well, where did you report the robberies? 19 A. An officer came over to the house and 20 questioned me, and that was all that was done. He 21 suggested I take serial numbers and left. 22 Q. Before your job with Lakewood, by whom were 23 you employed? 24 A. I was a year or two down there before with 25 Meister Electric. 11 1 Q. How do you spell that? 2 A. Their card I still had there. M_e_i_s_t_e_r. 3 Q. And what city or town are they located in? 4 A. Englewood. 5 Q. And who was your boss there? 6 A. Chris __ I can't even think of the fellow's 7 name. 8 Q. First name was Chris, though? 9 A. Yeah. That was getting to be ten years ago 10 now. 11 Q. All right. Before Meister, by whom were you 12 employed? 13 A. XLT here in town. 14 Q. XLT? 15 A. Oil Field Service here in Gillette, yes, sir. 16 Q. I'm sorry. Oil __ 17 A. XLT Oil Field Service I believe is what we 18 went by. 19 Q. I see. XLT Oil. All right. Why did you 20 leave Meister Electric? 21 A. They weren't __ to be quite honest, for a 22 contractor, they weren't giving me __ my checks were 23 late, and I didn't care to do that. I wanted my checks 24 when I got paid. 25 Q. So they were late paying you? 12 1 A. Yeah. 2 Q. So you quit? 3 A. Yeah. 4 Q. Is that right? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. What work did you do for XLT Oil Service? 7 A. Roustabout pusher. 8 Q. A roustabout pusher? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. What does a roustabout pusher do? 11 A. Just take a truck and tools out to a location 12 and build tank batteries or service them or build them, 13 which I have quite a few years of experience in 14 roustabout work. I'm sorry if I'm saying too much. 15 Q. Okay. And how long did you work for XLT Oil 16 Service? 17 A. Three years. 18 Q. Three years? 19 A. Yeah. 20 Q. Who was your boss there? 21 A. Ken Hutton. 22 Q. Is that spelled H_u_t_t_o_n? 23 A. Yeah. 24 Q. Is he still here? 25 A. I think. 13 1 Q. By my calculation, we're at about 1987. By 2 whom were you employed prior to XLT Oil Service? 3 A. Now, that's going back to New Mexico with Al 4 and Peg. I was also an electrician down there for three 5 years. Neva's sister, Peg, and Al. 6 Q. Their last name was Deans? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. And Peg is your aunt? 9 A. Yes, sir. I did travel. Before that I was in 10 Dallas for a year. 11 Q. Let me back up again a little bit. Why did 12 you leave XL Oil Service? 13 A. I wanted to go on to be an electrician. 14 Q. Did you go to any school for that? 15 A. Independent Electrical Contractors, but just 16 part, one semester. 17 Q. Where is their school? Is it here in 18 Gillette? 19 A. Denver. 20 Q. Again, it's called Independent? 21 A. Electrical Contractors. 22 Q. And how long was that school? 23 A. Just __ it was just kind of a course, a 24 six_month deal, I guess. 25 Q. So did you go from XL Oil Service, then, down 14 1 to Denver to the school for six months? 2 A. That school came later on in my Lakewood job. 3 After I tested once, then I went to school to try to 4 pass that test. 5 Q. Okay. So you had already had the job with 6 Lakewood when you went to this school? 7 A. Yes. Yeah. That worked out funny. 8 Q. Okay. So you were working for XLT as a 9 roustabout pusher and you decided you wanted to be an 10 electrician. Is that right? 11 A. (Nodded head.) 12 Q. You then worked for Meister for a while? 13 A. (Nodded head.) 14 Q. You then went to MBR for a while? 15 A. (Shook head.) 16 Q. No? 17 MR. VICKERY: Lakewood. 18 Q. (BY MR. PREUSS) Lakewood. I'm sorry. 19 A. (Nodded head.) 20 Q. That's right. MBR was the job that you were 21 waiting to start. I'm sorry. And then while you were 22 at Lakewood, they had you go to this independent 23 electrical contractor course in Denver. 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. How long were you down with Al and Peg Deans 15 1 in New Mexico? 2 A. Three years. 3 Q. And you were full_time employed at that time? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. And by whom? 6 A. Al Deans. 7 Q. Al himself had an electrical __ 8 A. Yeah. They had their Deans, Incorporated in 9 Artesia, New Mexico. 10 Q. So that's kind of where you learned the trade 11 to begin with? 12 A. (Nodded head.) 13 Q. You have to answer audibly. 14 A. Oh. I'm afraid to go into any long answers. 15 I learned my trade from Al Deans, but it was with Green 16 Electric here in Gillette, Wyoming is where I started. 17 Q. Okay. We'll get there then. When were you 18 with Green's Electric here in Gillette? 19 A. That would have been probably just 1980 to 20 1981, just one year in there. Well, I don't know if I 21 can get all them right, just right there, because I did 22 go through a few jobs, on the top of my head. 23 Q. That's all right. We will do the best we can 24 here. For Green's Electric here in Gillette, do you 25 remember who your boss was? 16 1 A. Al. 2 Q. Al Green? 3 A. Al Deans. 4 Q. Okay. Wait a minute. 5 A. No, that's Green Electric, but it was Al 6 Deans, foreman. 7 Q. The same Al Deans __ 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. __ that went to New Mexico. 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. When did you get out of high school? 12 A. 1980. 13 Q. So, your first full_time job after high 14 school, then, was with Green's Electric and your 15 supervisor was Al Deans. Is that right? 16 A. Yeah. I wish I could have prepared my 17 schedule a little more for you, but I'm just rattling 18 this off __ 19 Q. That's okay. 20 A. __ off the top of my head. 21 Q. We'll do the best we can. And if you say 22 something and realize it's different later on, just let 23 me know, and we'll work our way through it. Okay? 24 So you worked for Al Deans at Green's Electric 25 and that was your first introduction to being an 17 1 electrician. Right? 2 A. Yeah. 3 Q. All right. And then __ 4 MR. GORMAN: Mike, be sure you answer 5 audibly so Jack can hear you, please. 6 Q. (BY MR. PREUSS) Okay. And then after Green's 7 Electric, did Al Deans move to New Mexico and you go 8 with him? 9 A. (Shook head.) 10 Q. Okay. What happened in __ 11 A. No. 12 Q. __ in 1981? This is going to be a challenge. 13 A. Then I went to roustabouting for Kissack and 14 Gilland. And then from Kissack and Gilland I went to 15 Dallas, actually. That's about the length. That's the 16 last one in there. 17 Q. All right. After __ but did Al Deans move 18 away in 1981? 19 A. Some __ yes, somewhere in there. 20 Q. And because he moved, you had to find another 21 job. Is that right? 22 A. I did, yeah. 23 Q. And you became a roustabout. 24 A. Yeah. 25 Q. And by whom were you employed after 1981 when 18 1 Al went to New Mexico and you were out of a job? 2 A. Kissack and Gilland. 3 MR. VICKERY: I missed that one. 4 MR. PREUSS: Kissack and Gilland. 5 Q. (BY MR. PREUSS) And who was your boss at 6 Kissack and Gilland? 7 A. Joe Gilland. 8 Q. How long did you work for Joe Gilland? 9 A. Probably two years there. 10 Q. And after you worked for Joe Gilland, then you 11 went to Dallas? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. Why did you leave Joe Gilland's shop? 14 A. David Reavis went to Dallas with Oil Well 15 Supply and offered me a place to stay down there with 16 him, and so I moved. 17 Q. And David Reavis is your uncle. Right? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. Was David married? 20 A. No, sir. 21 Q. And so, he went down to __ was he living in 22 Dallas or did he move to Dallas? 23 A. Moved there from Gillette. 24 Q. And when he moved, you moved with him? 25 A. Shortly after. 19 1 Q. And both of you were employed by Oil Well 2 Supply? 3 A. I went to Puckett Electric down there. 4 Q. P_u_c_k_e_t_t? 5 A. Yeah. 6 Q. Who was your boss there? 7 A. I can't remember. 8 Q. How long did you work with Puckett in Dallas? 9 A. A year there. 10 Q. And during that year, you were living with 11 David? 12 A. Yeah. 13 Q. Were David and you __ what was the age 14 separation between you and David? 15 A. About five years. 16 Q. Did you and David socialize in Dallas 17 together? 18 A. He ended up getting married, met a wife and 19 got married there. And I went to New Mexico. 20 Q. And when he got married, you moved in with Al 21 and Peggy? Not moved in, you moved to New Mexico where 22 Al and Peggy were? 23 A. He moved to Tyler. He got transferred to 24 Tyler. And then at that time, I moved to New Mexico. 25 At that time, oil field work was paying better. 20 1 Q. I'm sorry. I missed that. 2 A. At that time, oil field work was paying better 3 than construction work, so I went back to the oil field 4 in New Mexico. 5 Q. That's why you went from __ that's why you 6 came back here from New Mexico to work for XLT then? 7 A. That's why I went to New Mexico from Texas. 8 That's a heck of a past. 9 Q. All right. I thought in New Mexico you were 10 working for Deans. 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. And did he get out of the electrical business? 13 A. No, sir. 14 Q. Okay. He stayed in it and you worked in it? 15 A. Electrical contractor, electrical in the oil 16 field, electrical oil field contractors. 17 Q. What was paying more? That's where you threw 18 me off. 19 A. Control work for the oil field. 20 Q. Electrical control work? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Okay. I'm going to take it through the list 23 here to make sure I got it straight. 24 A. I think you do. 25 Q. All right. We're out of high school. Right? 21 1 All right. Then we start working for Kissack and 2 Gilland. Is that correct? 3 MR. VICKERY: No. Green's Electric. 4 You failed the test. 5 MR. PREUSS: You're right. I'm sorry. 6 Q. (BY MR. PREUSS) You worked for Al Deans at 7 Green Electric here in Gillette, 1980, '81, about a 8 year. 9 A. Yeah. 10 Q. Okay. You then went to Kissack and Gilland, 11 worked for Joe Gilland. Correct? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. That's for a couple years? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. You then went to Dallas with David Reavis, 16 your uncle, and worked for Puckett Electric. 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. For about a year. 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. David got married, and you decided to move to 21 New Mexico where Al and Peg Deans, another uncle __ or 22 your aunt, I'm sorry, lived. Right? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. In New Mexico, you worked for Deans Electric. 25 A. Yes, sir. 22 1 Q. The same fellow you worked for at Green's 2 Electric here in Gillette. 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. And you were there about three years. 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. You then came back to Gillette and worked as a 7 roustabout for XLT Oil Service. 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. You then went to Meister Electric and then to 10 Lakewood and had a job ready to start with NBR. How did 11 I do? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 MR. VICKERY: Is it NBR or M? 14 THE DEPONENT: M. 15 MR. PREUSS: Oh. M as in __ 16 MR. VICKERY: M as in Mickey. 17 Q. (BY MR. PREUSS) All right. Now, during the 18 time from 1980 to 1998, did you have any period in which 19 you were unemployed over a period of a month? 20 A. Yes, I did. I can't remember the dates for 21 real sure, but it was when I was in Denver. The first 22 year I was in Denver, I started unemployment, but before 23 they were finished giving me my benefits, I found a job. 24 Q. So that was after you moved to New Mexico, you 25 moved without having a job? 23 1 A. Yeah. 2 Q. And then the job you got was Meister 3 Electric. Right? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. Did you say you drew unemployment for a while? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. For how long? 8 A. Just one or two months. 9 Q. Did you get any financial support at all from 10 your parents between the time of your graduation up to 11 1998? 12 A. He __ I had an Oldsmobile at one time, and it 13 finally evolved a computer problem. And so he helped me 14 buy this Corsica I have now, traded in my Oldsmobile and 15 bought a Corsica for me. 16 Q. Your dad did. 17 A. Yeah. He thought he knew some mechanics in 18 town here that might take some time to fix __ to find 19 the problem. They never did, so he did buy me a 20 Corsica. 21 Q. When did he do that? 22 A. It would have been 1995. But not a heck of a 23 lot for money. I didn't get any money from him to live 24 on through the years. 25 Q. Was this a new Corsica? 24 1 A. Used, but fairly new. 2 Q. So other than buying a car, you got no 3 financial support from your parents after you were 4 graduated from high school. Is that right? 5 A. No, I wouldn't call it, no. 6 Q. My statement is correct, that you received no 7 financial support from your parents after high school 8 except your dad bought you the Corsica. 9 A. Yeah. 10 Q. Now, other than David Reavis, did you live 11 with anybody else after high school in any of your job 12 locations? 13 A. That was probably my last roommate. 14 Q. And you lived with David until he got 15 married. Right? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. When you say David was your last roommate, did 18 you have any roommates in any location after graduating 19 from high school? 20 A. Yes, in town here, just one. 21 Q. Did you move out of the house after high 22 school? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. And where did you first live after high 25 school? 25 1 A. It was a place called Hoy's Trailer Park. 2 Q. How do you spell Hoy? 3 A. H_o_y_s. 4 Q. How long did you live at Hoy's Trailer Park? 5 A. Boy, you're catching me on some details here. 6 I don't recall all of them right off the top of my 7 head. A few months. 8 Q. If you don't recall, that's okay. 9 A. Okay. 10 Q. If you say, well __ in your mind you're 11 saying, well, I'm not sure if it was two months or four 12 months, just say, well, it was somewhere between two and 13 four months. If you have no idea at all, nobody wants 14 you to guess at something. 15 A. Yeah. 16 Q. So just do the best you can. And if you're 17 uncomfortable at any answer, just say you don't 18 remember. That's okay. 19 A. That was probably my only other roommates. 20 Q. And who lived with you there? 21 A. A fellow named Jim Elm. 22 Q. E_l_m? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Where is Jim today? 25 A. The last I have heard, in Rapid City, South 26 1 Dakota. 2 Q. And after Hoy's Trailer Park, where did you 3 live? 4 A. Church Street Apartments. 5 Q. That's here in Gillette? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. How long did you live there? 8 A. Around two years. 9 Q. And did you have a roommate in that time 10 frame? 11 A. No. 12 Q. And after Church Street Apartments, where did 13 you live? 14 A. A trailer, one of Kissack's trailers. 15 Q. When you say Kissack's trailers, is that the 16 same Kissack of Kissack and Gilland? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. And was it a company trailer? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. And did you pay rent? 21 A. They took it out of my wages. 22 Q. How long did you live at Kissack's trailers? 23 A. I'm going to come up with some odd numbers 24 here that aren't going to match, I'm sure. But probably 25 a year there. 27 1 Q. And after Kissack's trailer, where did you 2 live? 3 MR. VICKERY: Just the best you can, 4 Mike. 5 A. I had an apartment in Dallas. 6 Q. (BY MR. PREUSS) So that's when you moved to 7 Dallas with David Reavis. Right? 8 A. Yeah. 9 Q. Where did you live there? 10 A. Lake Ray Hubbard. 11 Q. One more time, please. 12 A. Lake Ray Hubbard. 13 Q. That's three words? 14 A. Yeah. 15 Q. Is that the name of a street or an apartment 16 or what? 17 A. A lake. There is just a __ 18 Q. Oh, it's a lake. Lake Ray and Hubbard? 19 A. Yeah. It's __ yeah. 20 Q. What kind of a unit was out at the lake? 21 A. Condominium. 22 Q. And did you stay there after David got married 23 or did you move out? 24 A. I moved to New Mexico. 25 Q. That's when you went to New Mexico? Where did 28 1 you live in New Mexico? 2 A. In an apartment. 3 Q. Do you remember the name? 4 A. I don't remember the address or name of that 5 place in Artesia. 6 Q. Did you live in the same apartment as long as 7 you were in New Mexico? 8 A. I had a house and an apartment I rented. 9 Q. Did you rent the house after the apartment? 10 A. Yeah, probably a year and a half each. 11 Q. And from whom did you rent the house? 12 A. I can't remember the fellow's name. 13 Q. Do you remember the address? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Did anybody live with you in the house? 16 A. No. 17 Q. All right. And then you went from New Mexico 18 to Denver. Right? 19 A. Gillette. 20 Q. That's right. With XLT, right? 21 A. Yeah. 22 Q. Where did you live in Gillette when you were 23 employed by XLT? 24 A. I rented a basement apartment behind the Casa 25 Del Ray there but I can't remember the street address. 29 1 Q. How long did you live there? 2 A. A couple years. 3 Q. All right. So while you were working for XLT, 4 you lived there. Right? 5 A. Yeah. 6 Q. All right. And then from there, you moved to 7 Denver? 8 A. Yeah. 9 Q. Where did you live in Denver? 10 A. Lowell Boulevard, Westminster. 11 Q. L_o_w_e_l_l? 12 A. Yeah. 13 Q. Was that an apartment? 14 A. Yeah. 15 Q. And how long did you live there? 16 A. I had two different places on that street. A 17 good two years each. 18 Q. Do you remember the names of the apartments on 19 Lowell Boulevard? 20 A. No, I don't, right offhand. I can tell you __ 21 it was on 72nd Street and Lowell. 22 Q. At the intersection? 23 A. Yeah, right at the street there. 24 Q. That would be true for both apartments? 25 A. Yeah. The other one was just a block away. 30 1 Q. Did you have a best friend while you were 2 living in Denver? 3 A. No, a few people I had worked with. 4 Q. Who were the people you worked with there that 5 you became socially friendly with? 6 A. I rented a room from a fellow named Mark 7 Colonell there before I rented them apartments. 8 Q. Colonell? 9 A. Yeah. 10 Q. Could you spell that for me? 11 A. C_o_l_o_n_e_l_l. And that was probably an 12 associate of mine for a while. 13 Q. At Meister? 14 A. Lakewood. 15 Q. At Lakewood. Okay. 16 A. He owned his house and I rented a room from 17 him. 18 Q. And then after renting the room from him, then 19 you moved into these two apartments you indicated? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. How are you doing? 22 A. Fine. Sorry that's so long. 23 Q. That's all right. All right. After your 24 parents' death, did you move in with your grandparent 25 for a while? 31 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. And how long did you live with Flo? 3 A. It was just a couple months there. 4 Q. All right. And then you moved into your 5 parents' house? Is that right? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. When did you actually move in there? 8 A. Peg and Neva had the master bedroom cleaned 9 out, but there was a whole level of stuff in storage 10 under the house. So I wanted to kind of dig it out is 11 why I moved back. But I can't remember the date. 12 April, I guess it was April of '97. 13 MR. VICKERY: '98. 14 A. '98. 15 Q. (BY MR. PREUSS) So did you live __ what 16 portion of the house did you occupy? 17 A. The basement. 18 Q. Is it a two_level or three_level house? 19 A. Four. 20 Q. Four_level? 21 A. There is a storage level down underneath it. 22 Q. Below the basement? 23 A. Yeah. 24 Q. So there is the storage, the basement and what 25 you would call the first level? 32 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. And then what do you call the top level? 3 A. The upstairs. 4 Q. The upstairs. Okay. 5 A. Yeah. 6 Q. And you lived in the basement then. 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. And what facilities are located in the 9 basement area? 10 A. A TV and stereo and a sofa that folds out into 11 a bed and a fireplace. 12 Q. Is there a bathroom down? 13 A. Bathroom, yeah, and a washer and dryer. 14 Q. How about the kitchen? 15 A. That was upstairs. That was on the first 16 floor. No kitchen. 17 Q. The first floor was the kitchen? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. And what else was on the first floor? 20 A. The living room and the kitchen. 21 Q. All right. And the upstairs had the three 22 bedrooms? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. And you lived in the fold_out couch in the 25 basement? 33 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. And my understanding is that you have rented a 3 portion of the house? Is that right? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. What portion have you rented? 6 A. I built a partition on the stairway and I 7 rented the first floor and the upstairs as an 8 apartment. 9 Q. And when did you build that partition? 10 A. Not till '99. I started __ I wanted to rent 11 the whole house out but there is so much stuff wedged in 12 storage underneath it that I couldn't afford enough 13 storage spaces to store the stuff. So I don't know 14 what __ I still don't know what I'm going to do with 15 that. I'm hauling it out to someone else's house now is 16 all. And it took me __ I had four storage units and I 17 quit storing stuff. So I started selling it, giving it 18 away, doing what I could with it. 19 Q. Okay. When in '99 did you complete the 20 partition and start renting the first floor and the 21 upstairs? 22 A. The latter part of it it would have been. 23 Q. Who are your tenants? 24 A. Now, Nick Krisan. 25 Q. How do you spell Nick's last name? 34 1 A. K_r_i_s_a_n. 2 Q. Does he live by himself or with a family? 3 A. I think he has a roommate upstairs there. But 4 I let him pick who he wants to live with, and they 5 change once in a while. 6 Q. Is he the only tenant that you have had since 7 you divided the house? 8 A. Yeah. 9 Q. And have you lived in this house continuously, 10 then, since you left Flo? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Where else have you lived besides there since 13 1998? 14 A. I'm current __ well, till here __ I'm 15 currently right now just moving into a house of my 16 girlfriend's. And I was aiming to rent the whole house 17 out. 18 Q. That's your present plan? 19 A. Yeah, to let Real Estate Systems handle it, 20 yeah, and me get away from it. But it's taking me too 21 long to get the stuff out and moved. 22 Q. So where are you moving to? 23 A. 36 O'Neill Road, Rozet. 24 Q. In Rozet? 25 A. Wessex Addition. 35 1 Q. Is that here in Gillette or outside of 2 Gillette? 3 A. Rozet. 4 Q. I don't know where Rozet is. 5 A. East of Rozet three miles. 6 Q. Three miles? 7 A. Yeah. 8 Q. When do you plan to complete the move to 9 Rozet? 10 A. Within the month. 11 Q. What's the name of your girlfriend? 12 A. Marlene. 13 Q. What's her last name? 14 A. H_e_r_t_z. 15 Q. Hertz? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. How long has she been your girlfriend? 18 A. A year. 19 Q. Then is it your plan to take the partition out 20 and just have the whole house to rent as a whole unit? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Are you living out at Rozet now? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. How long have you lived there? 25 A. Well, just within the last month. 36 1 Q. Is this a house you own? 2 A. She does. 3 Q. Do you own any other property besides the one 4 here on Seventh Street? 5 A. No, sir. Fifth. 6 Q. Fifth. Thank you. 7 MR. VICKERY: 707 West Fifth. 8 MR. PREUSS: That's right. Thank you. 9 Q. (BY MR. PREUSS) Have you lived any other 10 place after leaving Flo's house other than the place on 11 Fifth Street and the house you're moving into at Rozet? 12 A. No, sir. 13 Q. Did you graduate from high school? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Do you have a degree? 16 A. College? 17 Q. A high school degree. 18 A. Yeah, just a graduation. 19 Q. Graduation certificate. 20 A. Yeah. 21 Q. Okay. When you left high school, was it your 22 desire to move out of the house or was that your 23 parents' wish? 24 A. Pretty much mine. 25 Q. How often did you see your parents as a 37 1 general rule after you left following high school? 2 A. Oh, I still visited them once a week. I was 3 on pretty good terms. 4 Q. When you say visited, would you come over and 5 have a meal there or what? 6 A. Yeah, Sundays, a lot of Sundays, too. 7 Q. So, after high school while you were in 8 Gillette, you would see your parents once a week? 9 A. Yeah. 10 Q. And after you moved to Dallas and New Mexico, 11 how often would you see your parents? 12 A. Once a year maybe. 13 Q. What time of year would that generally be? 14 A. At Christmas. I tried to make it back at 15 Christmas to here. 16 Q. How often during the time you were in Dallas 17 and New Mexico did you speak to them on the phone? 18 A. Oh, I spoke to them on the phone every two 19 weeks since __ when I was gone, I generally talked to my 20 father or my mother on weekends. 21 Q. Who would call whom? 22 A. I would. 23 Q. You would initiate the call? 24 A. Yeah. 25 Q. And did you spend about as much time on the 38 1 phone with your father as you did your mom? 2 A. Oh, yeah. 3 Q. Then after you moved back to Gillette, you 4 were here for, what, about a year? A couple years, I 5 guess. 6 A. Yeah, a couple, I think, yeah. 7 Q. And how often did you see your parents then? 8 A. I didn't have a problem with them and I still 9 visited them probably once every two weeks at their 10 home. 11 Q. All right. So you would stop by their house 12 about once every two weeks when you were back in 13 Gillette when you were working for XLT? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. Then when you moved to Denver for __ what, 16 roughly six years? 17 A. Seven. 18 Q. __ how often did you see your parents during 19 that time frame? 20 A. Once on Christmas. 21 Q. And how about communicating with them 22 otherwise? How often did you __ 23 A. I communicated with them a lot. So visiting 24 them wasn't __ I would just visit them once in a while. 25 Q. How often did you talk to them on the phone? 39 1 A. I tried to call every weekend, at least every 2 other. 3 Q. So every week or two? 4 A. Yeah. 5 Q. Again, did you speak to your dad and your mom 6 about equal time? 7 A. Yeah, my mom __ generally probably a little 8 more to my mom. She's the one that needed consoling, I 9 think, more. 10 Q. Why did your mom need consoling? 11 A. Oh, just __ I don't know. She didn't. I was 12 just told to get her cards, birthday cards on time and 13 stuff. 14 Q. Who told you that? 15 A. My father. 16 Q. How did you and your father get along? 17 A. Fine. 18 Q. Was there ever any tension in the 19 relationship? 20 A. When I was young, younger fellow and living 21 there with him. But when I moved out, started getting 22 along with him. 23 Q. Okay. When you were a younger fellow, does 24 that mean sometime __ 25 A. Eighteen. 40 1 Q. __ before you were out of high school? 2 A. Yeah. 3 Q. And what caused the tension between you and 4 your father at that time? 5 A. I'm not even real sure. 6 Q. How did he show the tension, as far as you 7 were concerned? 8 A. I wouldn't call it a tension. I just thought 9 I was __ I don't know what to call it. I just didn't 10 want to live with him. 11 Q. Why did you not want to live with him? 12 A. Because I didn't want to live with my parents 13 forever. 14 Q. Why didn't you want to live with your parents? 15 A. They wouldn't let me, probably, if I wanted 16 to. I didn't want to live with my mommy and daddy 17 because I wanted to chase the girls. 18 Q. That's why you moved out in high school? 19 MR. VICKERY: That's an answer. 20 Q. (BY MR. PREUSS) That's why you moved out 21 after high school? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. What I am trying to get out is, you're saying 24 there was some tension before you moved out, and what 25 was the basis of that tension? 41 1 A. I wouldn't even call it tension, I guess. 2 Q. What would you call it? 3 A. I did go through an alcohol and drug abuse 4 center when I was in high school. I imagine that 5 disappointed them. 6 Q. You went to Alanon? 7 A. It was just called alcohol and drug abuse at 8 that time. 9 Q. All right. And when did you do that? 10 A. I was still in high school. 11 Q. What grade? 12 A. Tenth or eleventh. 13 Q. Tenth or eleventh? 14 A. Somewhere in there, yeah. 15 Q. For how long did you go there? 16 A. Just one course or one. 17 Q. One session? 18 A. Yeah. 19 Q. How long did that last? 20 A. Well, one course or something was a few 21 months, once a week of a few months, probably two or 22 three months or something like that. 23 Q. And where was the center, the alcohol and drug 24 abuse center? 25 A. By the old hospital. 42 1 Q. Had you had some difficulty with drugs then? 2 A. Yeah. 3 Q. What kind of drugs? 4 A. I smoked some marijuana. 5 Q. That's all? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. Nothing any stronger. 8 A. No, sir. 9 Q. And how did it come to your parents' attention 10 that you were smoking marijuana? 11 A. I can't even remember. I think they just __ 12 he just gave me a hard time one day for it. I suppose I 13 looked like it or something there. 14 Q. Were you smoking marijuana around the house? 15 A. No, sir. 16 Q. How did he know you were smoking marijuana? 17 A. I don't know. 18 Q. Did he confront you with it? 19 A. Yeah. I imagine someone told on me back then. 20 Q. Your sister? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Somebody else? 23 A. Yeah. 24 Q. Somebody at school? 25 A. Yeah, probably. 43 1 Q. Did you ever get kicked out of school? 2 A. No, sir. 3 Q. Did you have to miss school at all in 4 connection with the alcohol and drug abuse center 5 program? 6 A. No, sir. 7 Q. Was this a program that you went with your 8 parents? 9 A. No, sir. 10 Q. Went by yourself? 11 A. Yeah. It was a volunteer deal. It wasn't 12 enforced. It wasn't told me that I had to at that 13 time. 14 Q. So you haven't had any drugs any stronger than 15 marijuana. Is that correct? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. And that's true to this day? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. Did you have any counselor at all that you 20 worked with particularly at the alcohol and drug abuse 21 center? 22 A. No, sir. 23 Q. Did you have any counselor at school that you 24 worked with in connection with working through this 25 issue? 44 1 A. No, sir. 2 Q. How did your mother respond to the fact that 3 you were smoking marijuana? 4 A. She was a little more liberal than my father, 5 but it did bother her. 6 Q. What did she tell you in that regard? 7 A. Not a whole lot, but they suggested I didn't 8 do it, without a doubt. 9 Q. Did they talk to you together or did they talk 10 to you separately about that issue? 11 A. Sometimes I talked to my mom in the daytime 12 and she would discuss it with my father when he got home 13 from work. 14 Q. Did he discuss it with you directly? 15 A. If he felt the need to, yeah, he would. 16 Q. And did he feel the need to from time to time? 17 A. No. He never really did come up to me, just 18 give me a hard time over it or beat me over it. 19 Q. Was he angry about it? 20 A. A little, I think probably disappointed, more 21 of a disappointed than an anger. 22 Q. When you were growing up, between your mom and 23 your dad, who meted out the disciplinary treatment? 24 A. Either of them would, but my father generally 25 would. 45 1 Q. Did he use any physical means to discipline 2 you? 3 A. He slapped me only once or twice. 4 Q. And where did he slap you? 5 A. I was sit __ I was sitting at the dinner table 6 and said something to him, and he backhanded me. 7 Q. On the face? 8 A. Yeah, yeah. 9 Q. And what did you do to spark that reaction? 10 A. I can't even remember what it was. But that 11 was about the only __ really the only punishment I 12 remember, to tell you the truth. 13 Q. Did he ever spank you? 14 A. Just maybe once when I was a younger fellow, 15 and I don't remember over what, in that house. 16 Q. Did your parents ever argue between 17 themselves? 18 A. I have never seen them argue to this day. 19 Whether they did or not, I don't know, but they didn't 20 in front of me. 21 Q. Did your parents ever visit you at any __ in 22 Dallas or New Mexico when you were there? 23 A. In New Mexico and in Denver. 24 Q. How many times did they visit you when you 25 were in New Mexico? 46 1 A. They took a vacation down there, came down a 2 week once. 3 Q. Did they stay with Peggy and Al? 4 A. Stayed with me. 5 Q. With you? 6 A. Yeah. 7 Q. How often did they visit you when you were in 8 Colorado? 9 A. Once a year, they would make it down there to 10 do some shopping or visiting. 11 Q. When they came down there, did they stay with 12 you at your residence? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Stayed in a hotel or motel? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. Did they come down specifically to see you or 17 to shop and see you while they were down there? 18 A. Both. 19 Q. Who among your aunts and uncles were you 20 closest to? 21 A. Dave was probably more like a brother to me 22 than any of them for being closer to my age and being 23 raised with him and fishing with him. Al would probably 24 be next. 25 Q. And Dave died in an auto accident? Is that 47 1 right? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. When did that happen? 4 A. Ninety __ early '90s, around '90 maybe. 5 Q. Where were you living at the time? 6 A. New __ I was in Gillette, in fact. I had 7 already went through my New Mexico term and back in 8 Gillette. 9 Q. You were back in Gillette __ 10 A. Yeah. 11 Q. __ at the time he died? 12 A. And my mother came over and informed me about 13 her brother one day here in town. 14 Q. Did you go to that funeral? 15 A. No, I didn't. I don't know why I didn't, but 16 I didn't. It was too far away, three states away. I 17 didn't feel like going down there. I hadn't been to any 18 funerals, in fact, before then. 19 MR. VICKERY: What do you mean, Mike, 20 before your parents' funeral? 21 THE DEPONENT: I think I went to one 22 funeral before my parents' yeah, in my entire life. 23 Q. (BY MR. PREUSS) Who among your aunts and 24 uncles besides David were you more close to? 25 A. That was probably it. 48 1 Q. How often did you see Flo? 2 A. Oh, a few days a week. 3 Q. So you would see her more than you would see 4 your parents? 5 A. No. But they would tend to baby_sit us once 6 in a while, and I liked going over there, so I would ask 7 to go over there on weekends once in a while. 8 Q. This is when you were young? 9 A. Yeah, real young. 10 Q. How about after high school? How often did 11 you see Flo? 12 A. Then it was very seldom, probably __ then it 13 was once a month. 14 Q. Did you go over to her house? 15 A. Yeah. 16 Q. When you were in Denver, who among the family 17 members did you speak to besides your parents? 18 A. When I was __ I did chase a girl down there 19 who was a neighbor of mine that I used to date when I 20 had time. 21 Q. Who among your family members did you 22 communicate with when you were living in Denver? 23 A. None, not a whole lot of them. 24 Q. How about your sister, Deb? 25 A. Deb, yeah. I communicated with Deb, yeah. I 49 1 talked to Deb once a month, too, at least on the phone. 2 Q. Did you talk to Deb as much as you talked to 3 your parents? 4 A. No. But they would brief me on her situation 5 if she wasn't right there. 6 Q. When you were in Denver, how often did you 7 talk to Deb? 8 A. Once every couple months. 9 Q. Did you attend Deb's wedding to Tim? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. Did you ever visit them when they lived in 12 Billings? 13 A. Just a couple times. She was still in school 14 or college and I did. 15 Q. That was before she got married. 16 A. Right there, yeah. 17 Q. Were you visiting her then? Did you go with 18 your parents? 19 A. No. 20 Q. You went on your own? 21 A. Yeah, just by myself, in fact. 22 Q. So was that 19, what, '89? 23 A. Yeah, somewhere in that area, yeah. She got 24 out around there, yeah. 25 Q. Okay. And did you visit her down in Billings 50 1 after she and Tim got married and moved down there? 2 A. Not after. In fact, I just hadn't made it 3 after, but Tim used to make it up here with her 4 regularly and I got to visit them still. So it was not 5 too big a deal. 6 Q. When is the last time you saw Tim before your 7 parents' death? 8 A. It was probably with my sister in Colorado at 9 their apartment. 10 Q. How long before? 11 A. A couple years, I guess. 12 Q. So it had been a couple years before __ 13 A. I'll bet, two, yeah. 14 Q. __ before you had seen her? 15 A. Tim used to come back with my sister, Deb, 16 every other year for Christmas. This last year I came 17 back. I was the only one with my parents. The year 18 before that, Tim and Deb came back. And that was the 19 last time I seen them, Christmas, I think. 20 Q. You didn't see them in the summer? 21 A. No. I can't __ I might have. I don't know. 22 It was briefly, if I did. 23 Q. Okay. So that would be the same with respect 24 to Deb and Tim, then, you hadn't seen them for about two 25 years? 51 1 A. Yeah. If I seen Tim, it was with Deb 2 probably. I just visited them together. 3 Q. And that was about two years ago, and that 4 would have been at Christmas. Right? 5 A. Yeah. Christmas would have been the last 6 time, actually. 7 Q. So that would have been the Christmas of '96. 8 Is that correct? 9 A. Yeah, something like that, yeah. 10 Q. That's the last time you saw Deb and Tim. 11 A. I think it was, yeah. 12 Q. Did you go to the service that was held in 13 Billings? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. And you went to the one that was here. Right? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 MR. VICKERY: Did you say yes for the 18 first one? 19 THE DEPONENT: Yes. 20 Q. (BY MR. PREUSS) Did your father have any guns 21 in the home? 22 A. Yeah. 23 Q. What did he have? 24 A. When he was a younger fellow, I believe he got 25 an over_under gun, which was a 16_gauge shotgun and a 52 1 .22 magnum rifle. He used to carry that in his work 2 truck, or a .22 long rifle or also a .22 revolver when 3 he was a younger fellow that he used to put in a holster 4 and practice his quick draw like they did on the 5 movies. And later on, Don Meyers, a hot oiler, gave him 6 a Colt, Dan __ or Python, I believe, just for his work, 7 for giving him work, for business for a while. And that 8 was __ and Gerald had give him a .270. I was aware of 9 them because he did take me hunting with him, too. And 10 I did get a deer and an antelope and learn how to clean 11 them. 12 Q. When is the last time you went hunting with 13 your dad? 14 A. A long time. That would have been '80s, way 15 early '80s or '70s even. 16 Q. Is that the last time that you and he shot 17 guns together? 18 A. Oh, yeah. 19 Q. After you left high school, did you and your 20 dad do any father_son thing between the two of you? 21 A. I liked going over to Keyhole with him where I 22 could fish and water_ski, actually with Flo and them and 23 the family, but not really just a father necessarily. I 24 never asked him to either, I must admit. 25 Q. After leaving high school, did you and your 53 1 mom do anything where just the two of you shared an 2 activity together? 3 A. No, I don't believe so either. 4 Q. After high school, did you and Deb do anything 5 as brother and sister only? 6 A. No, I don't believe so. 7 (Deposition proceedings recessed 10:03 8 a.m. to 10:12 a.m.) 9 Q. (BY MR. PREUSS) What's your date of birth? 10 A. 1_16_62. 11 Q. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you 12 indicated that you have been unemployed since your 13 parents' death but have done odd jobs from time to 14 time. Is that correct? 15 A. Odd jobs, yeah. 16 Q. So in the two_plus years since your parents' 17 death, what's the longest period of employment that you 18 have had? 19 A. Wiring an addition on to a house. 20 Q. You just did it on your own as an independent 21 contractor? 22 A. Just added a plug there where they were adding 23 some walls. 24 Q. And how long was that job? 25 A. Less than a week, anyway. 54 1 Q. Are you actively looking for employment at 2 this time? 3 A. If I get __ when I get moved and settled, 4 yeah. I was going to go ahead and go back to full 5 time. Hopefully maybe electric or maybe __ either 6 roustabout or electric again, I am, but not today. 7 Q. Have you looked for a permanent job since your 8 parents' death? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Who gave your father this __ you described it 11 as a Colt Python? Is that right? 12 A. Yeah. 13 Q. What caliber is that? 14 A. .357, I believe, he showed me. 15 Q. And who gave it to him? 16 A. Don Meyers. 17 Q. Who is Don Meyers? 18 A. Hot oil service. Wanting work from him, so he 19 gave him something like that. 20 Q. Don Meyers wanted work from your dad? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. What kind of work? 23 A. Hot oiling wells in Hartzog Draw. 24 Q. Where were the guns stored in the house? 25 A. That I'm not real sure of since I left the 55 1 place. When I was in school, I think he had one in his 2 closet, in his bedroom. 3 Q. In the master bedroom? 4 A. Yeah. 5 Q. When he had one in there, are you talking 6 about a pistol or rifle or shotgun? 7 A. I think he had pistol in there. A .22 was all 8 I was aware of. He didn't get his other guns till I was 9 out of the house, anyway, that other __ 10 Q. He didn't get the over_under or .270 or all 11 the other ones you mentioned? 12 A. That over_under gun was his. It's a old 13 Savage. I think it's a collector's gun. It's only got 14 two letters on it for a serial number. I think it's 15 rather old. That one he got when he was younger up in 16 North Dakota or something there. And his .22 and his 17 over_under gun came with him, I think, when he was 18 young. Then he got guns after that. Whatever he got 19 after that, I don't know what he did with. 20 Q. Do you know where he stored his over_under? 21 A. No, I don't. Well, it was hanging up in a 22 rack by his washer and dryer, I think. 23 Q. Where was the washer and dryer? 24 A. Downstairs. There was a rack. 25 Q. Downstairs being the basement or __ 56 1 A. Yeah, basement. 2 Q. Where you lived. 3 A. There was a two_gun rack, holder, and there 4 was a .22 and that over_under hanging on it. 5 Q. Is that a .22 pistol or a rifle? 6 A. Rifle. 7 Q. And you don't know where __ and you thought he 8 had a .22 pistol in the master bedroom in a closet? 9 A. He used to. 10 Q. Okay. Used to. And then you don't know where 11 the .357 or __ 12 A. No. 13 Q. __ the other guns that he had acquired were 14 stored. 15 A. No. I think he liked to travel with his .357 16 when he traveled. 17 Q. You mean if he were going down to Denver to 18 visit you, he would bring his .357 along? 19 A. Yeah, or __ yeah. 20 Q. Did he have a permit for carrying a concealed 21 weapon? 22 A. I think he just threw it in the trunk of the 23 car or something. I don't think he carried it. He 24 didn't carry it, but he had one in his vehicle a lot of 25 times. 57 1 Q. Did he have any permit to carry it, as far as 2 you know? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Do you have any guns? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. What do you have? 7 A. My over_under and a .22 long rifle and .300 8 Weatherby my grandpa gave me. 9 Q. So you have the guns that your dad had? 10 A. Yeah, all but the handguns. I think them 11 handguns __ I don't know where they went. I haven't the 12 slightest idea what happened to them. Well, I mean, I 13 do, but I don't __ 14 Q. What's your understanding of what happened to 15 them? 16 A. That they were taken after this. I don't know 17 what was done with them. 18 Q. Taken by the police, you mean? 19 A. Yeah. 20 Q. So other than whatever handguns were involved, 21 you have the remainder of your father's guns. Is that 22 right? 23 A. Yeah. But I already sold his Husqvarna .270. 24 Q. I'm sorry? 25 A. I already sold his .270. 58 1 Q. As far as you know, the guns were not in one 2 location, then, in the house and not under lock and 3 key. Is that right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. It's a compound question. I'm sorry. The 6 answer is yes to both of those questions? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Have you known your dad ever to be depressed? 9 A. It was just mentioned to me maybe once or 10 twice that first time or two, I think, he started 11 showing signs of that, but it was hardly very seldom 12 mentioned to me after that. 13 Q. Well, let's take the period of time up to 1980 14 when you got out of __ it was '80 you got out of high 15 school. Right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Up till the time you got out of high school, 18 were you aware of anything that would indicate to you 19 that your dad wasn't feeling well mentally? 20 A. No. He felt pretty obligated to be a pretty 21 strong figure to me, I think. 22 Q. When is the first time that you felt or were 23 aware that he might have some mental problems? And by 24 that I'm talking about depression. 25 A. Actually, I don't think I was living in the 59 1 state. I think I was in __ 2 Q. That's okay. Wherever you were __ 3 A. __ possibly New Mexico, down in there. 4 Q. All right. And how did you become aware when 5 you were living in New Mexico that your dad might be 6 feeling mentally down? 7 A. My mom had mentioned it. I believe the 8 subject came up with her sister had miscarried a child. 9 Now, that don't have anything to do with it, but she 10 came up depressed out of this, too. And so I'm thinking 11 the subject probably came up there with her. But other 12 than that, they never brought it up with me at all. 13 Q. Okay. I'm a little confused. Who miscarried 14 a child? 15 A. Peg. 16 Q. And when did Peg miscarry a child? 17 A. I'm not real sure when. About them early 18 '80s, '80 something. 19 Q. When you were down there? 20 A. Yeah, right around there, yeah. I never __ I 21 never visited them hardly down there at their house 22 either. I seen Al all the time at work, so I didn't 23 make it to the office a lot. And Peg was coming to the 24 office a lot to do paperwork. 25 Q. So when you were down in New Mexico, living 60 1 there, Peg miscarried. Is that right? 2 A. Yeah. 3 Q. And did she become down and depressed? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Did she receive medical attention for that? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Was she given any medications to help her with 8 that? 9 A. I think so. 10 Q. Do you know what medications she was given? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Do you know how long she took the medications? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Do you know who her doctor was? 15 A. No. 16 Q. And at or about that time, who said what to 17 you to indicate to you that your dad may have had __ 18 A. My mother. 19 Q. So did you talk to your mom personally or did 20 she talk to you on the phone? 21 A. On the phone. 22 Q. And what did she tell you at that time? 23 A. She did mention that my father had went in for 24 a depression, but only once was it mentioned to me. 25 Q. And what did you understand her to mean when 61 1 she told you that he went into depression? 2 A. That's about all that was said to me. 3 Q. And did you understand that to be sometime 4 prior to the time that she told you that? 5 A. No. 6 Q. When did you understand, relative to your 7 conversation with your mom, that your dad had gone into 8 depression? 9 A. More or less, I didn't. I just kind of __ she 10 said he went in to be seen for it once, and they never 11 did say he came out diagnosed with it. 12 Q. So he went to see the doctor about depression 13 and that's all she said. 14 A. Yeah, right. 15 Q. You understood that he had gone in to see the 16 doctor at some time prior to the time that she talked to 17 you about it. Is that right? 18 A. Yeah. 19 Q. Other than that occasion, was anything brought 20 to your attention, either through your own observations 21 or through anything anybody told you, about your dad 22 being depressed? 23 A. No. And with me not living in town 24 necessarily, I didn't pick it up. 25 Q. Your mom never mentioned it to you again that 62 1 your dad may have been depressed? 2 A. No, sir. 3 Q. Your sister, Deb, never mentioned anything to 4 you? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Nobody in your family mentioned anything to 7 you? 8 A. Nope. I didn't know he was taking medications 9 or got changed __ I didn't know he was still taking 10 medication for it either. 11 Q. When did you learn that he was taking 12 medication for it? 13 A. When I got back here and standing at the 14 funeral. 15 Q. That's the first time? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Who told you? 18 A. Neva and Flo and Peggy. 19 Q. And what did Neva tell you? 20 A. That he was doing some medication and it got 21 changed and __ 22 Q. And did she tell you what medication? 23 A. At that time, they mentioned Paxil to me. 24 Q. Neva specifically mentioned that? 25 A. Yeah. Well, Flo __ I think it was probably 63 1 Flo. But I was asking them questions, too, trying to 2 educate myself. And that's what __ the information they 3 had come up with, as I recall. 4 Q. Tell me what you remember specifically that 5 Neva told you at the funeral. 6 A. Well, there again, I can't quote anyone in 7 particular there. It was just kind of a conversation 8 between three of them there setting at the dinner __ at 9 Flo's kitchen table. And it wasn't a conversation with 10 any one of them in particular. 11 Q. And so you can't distinguish what Neva said as 12 opposed to what Flo said as opposed to what Peggy said? 13 A. They all mutually agreed that these were the 14 details that they came up with so far. 15 Q. That he had been on medications? 16 A. Yeah. 17 Q. At the time that he died? 18 A. Yeah. 19 Q. And that the medications he was on had been 20 changed from what he was taking before that time? 21 A. Yes, and apparently that he had been taking 22 them for a while, and I didn't know. 23 Q. Did anybody say what medications he had been 24 taking from which he was changed to a new medication? 25 A. At that time, they did, but I don't know __ I 64 1 don't think __ I can't remember them. 2 Q. And do you have a specific recollection as to 3 anybody identifying the new medication that he was on at 4 the time that he died? 5 A. Identifying it? My attorney, I believe, said 6 they thought __ 7 Q. Well, wait a minute. You're not supposed to 8 tell me what information you learned from your 9 attorney. 10 A. Mr. Joe Hallock. 11 Q. Was Mr. Hallock your attorney at the time? 12 A. Yeah. 13 MR. PREUSS: Do you want to give him 14 whatever instructions you want to give? 15 MR. VICKERY: Your conversations with 16 Joe Hallock are privileged. They are your privilege. 17 It's yours to waive or assert as you choose. 18 THE DEPONENT: Oh. Well __ 19 MR. VICKERY: So it's up to you whether 20 you want to share with Mr. Preuss what Mr. Hallock said 21 to you or not. 22 THE DEPONENT: Okay. 23 MR. PREUSS: So you don't have to tell 24 me anything that your attorney, in other words, your 25 actual attorney, told you. 65 1 THE DEPONENT: Well, I would like to. 2 MR. PREUSS: That's all right. 3 MR. VICKERY: It's your right to if you 4 want to. It's your privilege as long as you want to 5 waive it. 6 THE DEPONENT: He's the one that briefed 7 me that my father got changed to Paxil and that they 8 were going to test him for actual in his blood system at 9 that time, and then I waited till I got more 10 information. 11 Q. (BY MR. PREUSS) Okay. So it wasn't Neva, Flo 12 or Peggy that had mentioned Paxil to you. 13 A. Neva, Flo and Peggy mentioned it to me, but 14 they __ about that same day, she introduced me to Joe 15 Hallock. And I go down __ and I went down to Joe's, and 16 Joe said the same thing, probably after that, one or two 17 days, but I could probably figure that Joe knew what he 18 was talking about a little better than my family for 19 being ignorant to it, the subject is all. Everyone knew 20 but me. I don't know what to tell you. Everyone seemed 21 to know what was going on but me up here. 22 Q. Well, what I would like to get as best you can 23 recall, and I know that can be difficult given the 24 difficult circumstances that you were under and also 25 it's been some time, is, specifically, what you learned 66 1 from Neva, Flo and Peggy. And let's start with Neva. 2 A. Neva didn't say nothing. Peggy didn't say 3 nothing. Flo probably __ Flo told me that they thought 4 it happened that way. 5 Q. What do you mean "they thought it happened 6 that way"? 7 A. The police came into my apartment down there, 8 told me my family had been shot. They didn't tell me it 9 was a murder_suicide or who shot them or whatever. I 10 had no idea until I got back and asked my grandma two 11 weeks later. 12 Q. And then what did Flo tell you at the time you 13 asked her? 14 A. That they suspected that it was a 15 murder_suicide and my father shot himself in the end. I 16 didn't even have that much information. 17 Q. So up to the time of your father's death, 18 then, the only time that your father may have gone into 19 depression was when your mom mentioned it to you on the 20 phone when you were living in New Mexico and Peg 21 miscarried a child. Is that right? 22 A. Somewhere around that same time, yeah, it was 23 brought up to me but only once, and it was not discussed 24 with me. 25 Q. Okay. So the next time you knew anything or 67 1 the subject of whether your dad was depressed or not 2 came up after your dad's death. Is that right? 3 A. Yes. He didn't talk about it to me, nor did 4 my mother, and I didn't ask. 5 Q. Nor did anybody in the family, right? 6 A. Yeah. 7 Q. That's right? 8 A. Yeah, that's right. I don't know __ I'll be 9 quiet. 10 Q. Did you want to say something? 11 A. (Shook head.) 12 Q. No? 13 A. No, sir. 14 Q. Were you aware that your parents had a third 15 child that was born between you and Debbie that did not 16 live? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And were you aware of that when you were 19 children? 20 A. We went to his grave every Memorial Day and 21 put on flowers. 22 Q. Was he given a name? 23 A. No. 24 Q. And what is your understanding as to why the 25 child died? 68 1 A. That he was __ just died at birth was all I 2 was told. 3 Q. Who among your relatives was your dad close 4 to? 5 A. He ended up pretty close to Gerald and Flo 6 here in town in the end for visiting and fishing. 7 Q. When did Gerald die? 8 A. One year __ about one year before this. 9 Q. 1997? 10 A. Yeah, I guess, '6 or something. 11 Q. How did that affect your dad? 12 A. It bothered him. That was the first time I 13 probably noticed it myself that he was emotionally 14 saddened. 15 Q. You were at the funeral? 16 A. Yeah. 17 Q. How did you know that your dad was emotionally 18 saddened? 19 A. He mentioned to me that __ he did mention to 20 me that it bothered him to look up all this information 21 about someone that had passed away that he was close to, 22 because I think he just went through it with his 23 brother, too, in North Dakota just before that. So he 24 was probably getting tired of going through funerals, 25 too. He got snowed in for a week in North Dakota at his 69 1 brother's funeral shortly before my grandfather's. 2 Q. Did he tell you that his brother's death 3 disturbed him as well? 4 A. No. I just sensed he was down a little bit, I 5 think. 6 Q. Did your father cry at Gerald's funeral? 7 A. I think he did. 8 Q. Did you see him cry? 9 A. No. 10 Q. How do you know he did then? 11 A. Well, I don't know if he did, I guess, for 12 sure. 13 Q. If he were to cry, would that be something 14 unusual for your dad? 15 A. Yeah. Yeah. It's something he took pride in 16 not doing in front of me. 17 Q. He always wanted to be a strong figure to you? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Have you ever seen your dad cry? 20 A. That was the only time I even seen him think 21 about it. 22 Q. To be close to __ 23 A. Yeah. 24 Q. __ to crying? 25 A. Yeah, where he looked like he was going to. 70 1 Q. Did your dad ever shave his head? 2 A. Yeah. 3 Q. How often? 4 A. Just once or twice in his life, though, I 5 think. 6 Q. Do you know why? 7 A. To keep cool in the summertime. 8 Q. Did you see Tim Tobin this week? 9 A. No, sir. 10 Q. Did you talk to him on the phone? 11 A. No, sir. 12 Q. Have you seen him at all since the death of 13 your parents? 14 A. At Flo's house a couple times. They stopped 15 by, visited, shortly after that happened. Then he moved 16 out of town and I haven't since. 17 Q. You mean shortly of the funeral, he stopped by 18 a couple times? 19 A. Yeah. 20 Q. And after that, you haven't seen him. Right? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Have you ever seen a notebook that your 23 parents prepared which contained their requests upon 24 their death? 25 A. Yeah, I did. 71 1 Q. How did that come to your attention? 2 A. It was already dug out of their bedroom, I 3 believe, and handed to me at my grandma's house by the 4 time I read it, though, or even was aware that they had 5 one. I didn't know they had one, anything like that. 6 Q. That was the first time you found out about 7 it, when somebody handed it to you? 8 A. Yeah. 9 Q. All right. Did you take any steps yourself to 10 see that their requests were followed through? 11 A. I didn't have to or wasn't asked to. 12 Q. Who did that? Well, first of all, do you have 13 any understanding as to whether their requests were 14 followed? 15 A. I believe Peggy did a lot of helping there. 16 Q. Peggy? 17 A. Called us, called a lot of them, yeah. 18 Q. What were your dad's hobbies? 19 A. Fishing. Not many of them. Yard work. He 20 did a lot of work around his house in his spare time. 21 He built up that house nice and he finished his basement 22 there nice. But not much for hobbies, necessarily. 23 Q. How did he occupy his spare time? 24 A. I'm not sure. Unknown. 25 Q. What are your hobbies? 72 1 A. Fishing. I really have enjoyed fishing, too. 2 Gerald had a fishing boat up here, and so he taught me 3 water_skiing, fish, pretty young. 4 Q. When was the last time you water_skied? 5 A. With Al two years ago. 6 Q. When is the last time you have been fishing? 7 A. With Al and Peg just last summer. 8 Q. Do you have any other hobbies? 9 A. No, not necessarily. I guess I don't. 10 Q. How do you spend your spare time? 11 A. There is __ I have discovered as a 12 construction hand now I can do electrical work or paint 13 or there is enough maintenance to do around the place 14 that keeps my time busy, to tell you the truth. 15 Q. So you work around the house, make sure it 16 stays shipshape? 17 A. Yeah, that and Marlene's ranch. She has four, 18 five quarter horses that she's trying to raise, get some 19 raised and start selling. It's taking time. They need 20 fed every day. 21 Q. So you take care of those chores? 22 A. Yeah. I end up there helping her there with 23 that, too, a lot of days. 24 Q. How long have you been helping her take care 25 of the horses? 73 1 A. Probably a year. 2 Q. Do you have any present plans to get married? 3 A. Yeah. 4 Q. Do you have a date set? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Are you engaged? 7 A. Yeah. 8 Q. Have you given her a ring? 9 A. Yeah. 10 Q. Have you ever been engaged before? 11 A. No, no one that I handed a ring to, no. 12 Q. And you were never married before. 13 A. No. 14 Q. And no children. 15 A. No. I think that evolved from moving, moving 16 a time or two when I might have __ I suppose I would 17 have had better luck with the same deal. 18 MR. VICKERY: It's debatable whether 19 it's better luck or not to get hitched. 20 MR. PREUSS: I am not sure I would put 21 that on the record. 22 MR. VICKERY: I'm sorry. That was what 23 Mr. Preuss told me yesterday. 24 Q. (BY MR. PREUSS) What were your mom's 25 hobbies? 74 1 A. I'm not sure. She was selling real estate in 2 her spare time the last I heard. 3 Q. Was she selling houses at the time of her 4 death, as far as you knew? 5 A. Yeah. 6 Q. Was she pretty successful in what she did? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Do you know whether she was earning more money 9 than your dad? 10 A. I don't know that. 11 Q. Your dad work for Occidental for a long time? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And Occidental went out of business? Is that 14 right? 15 A. I think they just sold them wells out in that 16 field. 17 Q. Did that end your dad's job with them? 18 A. I think it did, but they gave him an early 19 retirement or something possibly. 20 Q. What did he do after his early retirement? 21 A. Contract pumping. 22 Q. How much of his time did that take a day? 23 A. That I'm not sure of either. 24 Q. Do you know whether he earned as much as a 25 contract pumper as he was earning with Occidental? 75 1 A. I'm not sure of that. I think he mentioned he 2 was making a little better but he had to pick up his own 3 insurances and his workers' comp insurance and his 4 vehicle expenses one day to me. 5 Q. Do you know whether he was upset at all and 6 anxious when Occidental went out of business? 7 A. No. He didn't mention much to me about it. 8 Q. So not to your knowledge? 9 A. Not to my knowledge, no. 10 Q. Your dad was in the military. Is that right? 11 A. Yeah. 12 Q. You understood that to be true? 13 A. I have seen some pictures. 14 Q. Okay. And the notebook that he prepared 15 indicated that he had his military papers in the safe 16 deposit box. Have you ever seen those papers? 17 A. Oh. Military papers, I don't recall right 18 offhand. 19 Q. Did you get what was in the safe deposit box? 20 A. Yeah. They took me down there and showed me 21 what was in this safety deposit box. They took me down 22 to Joe Hallock's office and showed me stuff that was in 23 Joe Hallock's office. I went back there again and it 24 was gone. It was already gone, picked up and moved. 25 This is stuff that's got moved on me a couple times. 76 1 Some of it I have; some of it I don't. I don't know 2 where it is now. I don't believe I read it. 3 Q. What happened to it? 4 A. I don't know. I don't know right offhand 5 about them, I guess. 6 Q. Do you know who took it? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Did you ever ask Joe Hallock? 9 A. Not about military papers. 10 Q. What about other stuff that you had seen 11 and __ 12 A. I didn't know what he was supposed to have in 13 there. He had some coins and insurance policies. 14 Q. What happened to the coins? 15 A. I took them. 16 Q. You got those? 17 A. Yeah. 18 Q. Did you get the insurance policies? 19 A. Yeah. They sent them off, mailed whatever of 20 them off they needed to mail or look for. That's all I 21 really recall. 22 Q. After your parents died, did you understand 23 that you were to be the administrator or executor of the 24 estates of your two parents? 25 A. First thing that was told me was they were 77 1 going to sell at auction everything and I would maybe 2 get half. 3 Q. Well, did you understand that you were the 4 person that was supposed to take charge of their 5 estates? 6 A. It was told to me I was in the will. I didn't 7 know how it was going to end. 8 Q. Were you told that it was your responsibility 9 to make sure that everything happened in accordance with 10 the will? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Okay. Who did you understand was supposed to 13 do that? 14 A. Mr. Hallock, I think, went through __ he had 15 gotten records of their financial investments and 16 gathered them all together and got a total so they knew 17 what they were working with. 18 Q. Okay. Well, did Neva have any responsibility 19 for making sure the estate got handled in the proper 20 way? 21 A. Yeah. After they figured out that they 22 were __ someone was going to get sued, instead of me 23 just being __ getting sued, they put me on the suing 24 side so I was doing the suing, because I didn't agree 25 with it, what they did, either. 78 1 Q. What didn't you agree with? 2 A. Well, I didn't __ well, I hated to see this 3 happen, too. So __ and I hated __ I don't feel like it 4 was up to me, for them to sue me either over it. 5 Q. So were you aware that Tim Tobin filed a 6 lawsuit against the estate of your parents? 7 A. Not till Mr. Joe Hallock told me in town here. 8 Q. Is that what you're talking about? 9 A. Yeah. That's when I was informed, yeah. 10 Q. And you didn't want to be sued yourself? Is 11 that what you mean? 12 A. Well, it was suggested to me by him to do that 13 route. 14 Q. Mr. Hallock? 15 A. Yeah. 16 Q. Okay. Again, you don't have to tell me what 17 Mr. Hallock told you. 18 A. This wasn't really my doings, my choices 19 there. It was suggested to me to do that. 20 Q. And the suggestion was that Neva take charge 21 of it rather than you? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And you agreed to that? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And did it upset you that Tim Tobin was suing 79 1 your parents' estate? 2 A. No. I felt that was probably the thing to 3 do. I didn't have a problem with it. I never did 4 complain about it to anyone. 5 Q. And how did that __ did that lawsuit get 6 resolved? 7 A. Well, from there, we went into another 8 meeting, and I seen how much my parents did have saved 9 in investments, and it was more than I thought they 10 had. And I think it was more than they thought they 11 had. And so we made them an offer. Instead of half of 12 everything, we made them an offer of somewhere around 13 $100,000. And the way I understand it, it got put __ 14 turned away a couple times or something. They finally 15 came up with some money figure that would work for them. 16 Q. What was that figure? 17 A. I don't know for real sure what it was, but it 18 was two vehicles and some money. 19 Q. Okay. He got two vehicles and some money? 20 A. An S_10 and a Cadillac on top of that, I 21 think. 22 Q. And what did you end up with? 23 A. That was no problem. I mean, I wanted to 24 settle with them. It's just everything be done with. I 25 got a truck and I kept a four_wheel_drive pickup. 80 1 Q. So you kept the two pickups? 2 A. One. 3 Q. The old one? 4 A. Yeah. 5 Q. All right. And what was the monetary amount 6 that Tim Tobin ended up with? 7 A. I don't know for real sure. I think it was 8 somewhere around 150,000. 9 Q. And what did you end up with? 10 A. Not real far from that either. 11 Q. A little more or a little less? 12 A. A little less, I think, than that and a home, 13 though, paid for. 14 Q. So you ended up with cash a little less than 15 150 __ 16 A. Yeah. 17 Q. __ plus the home. Is that right? 18 A. Yeah. 19 Q. And was that home free of any debt? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Do you know what the value of that home is? 22 A. 94,000, they appraised it at. It's been 23 appraised since. 24 Q. Is Mr. Hallock the only attorney that you 25 dealt with in connection with resolving the issues of 81 1 your parents' estates and the claim of Tim Tobin? 2 A. Yes. They were highly recommended by Flo. 3 Q. Okay. Mr. Hallock was. 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And my understanding is that all the work done 6 was done by Mr. Hallock and not by you. Is that right? 7 A. Yeah. 8 Q. You just agreed to the proposals __ 9 A. Yeah. 10 Q. __ as it finally got resolved? 11 A. Yes. I agreed to everything they had to say 12 to me. 13 Q. Did you understand that your dad wanted you to 14 have all the guns in the house except the Ruger? Do you 15 know what that means? 16 A. Huh_uh. 17 Q. Okay. I'm reading from the notebook and I'm 18 quoting from it. It says: If I die first and Rita 19 wants to keep or sell the guns, fine. If not, I would 20 like Mike to have them all except the Ruger. I would 21 like him to give the Ruger to Deb and Tim and show them 22 how to use it. 23 A. I don't believe I read that page before out of 24 that book. 25 Q. Did he have a Ruger? 82 1 A. I don't know. 2 Q. Do you know what a Ruger is? 3 A. A Ruger revolver, handgun? Or __ I don't know 4 for real sure what that is referring to. 5 Q. You don't recall ever reading that __ you did 6 read the notebook, though. Right? 7 A. Yeah. But I didn't recall that page. The one 8 I read didn't quite look that thick, to tell you the 9 truth. 10 Q. Well, this is a xerox of a smaller notebook. 11 A. Oh. 12 Q. And so you can see that it has two pages on 13 it. 14 A. Okay. 15 Q. All right? But you're not aware that he had a 16 Ruger? 17 A. No, not right offhand, I wasn't. 18 Q. And you didn't give any guns to Tim. Right? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Did your dad ever discuss with you that he was 21 proud of Rita's work as a real estate agent? 22 A. Not much, but I think he was happy with it. 23 Q. He never discussed it with you. 24 A. No. 25 Q. Did he like to have Rita home at a certain 83 1 time every day? 2 A. No. I don't think he demanded it of her. 3 Q. Did he have a preference? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Did he like to keep his cars clean? 6 A. Yeah. 7 Q. How often would he wash them? 8 A. That I'm not real sure of. 9 Q. Okay. If you were to drive up to the house 10 and see a car all muddy and dirty, would that be 11 unusual? 12 A. Not for Wyoming. 13 Q. No, for your dad's car, though. 14 A. Well, the car was in the garage all the time. 15 So, yes, I guess it would be for the car. 16 Q. Did he wash his pickup that he took to the oil 17 fields? 18 A. I'm sure he didn't wash that as much. 19 Q. Are you sure or are you just guessing or __ 20 A. Guessing. 21 Q. Okay. Well, try not to guess. 22 A. Okay. 23 Q. If you kind of know, that's fine, but __ 24 A. I was going to __ 25 Q. __ just because I ask a question doesn't mean 84 1 you have to guess at an answer. 2 A. I don't know hardly any of that stuff. 3 Q. If you just tell me you don't know, that's 4 okay. 5 A. I wasn't here for a long time. 6 Q. Did your dad have any kind of office or a 7 bench or anything where he worked in the garage? 8 A. Yeah, a work type bench. 9 Q. A work type? For working with tools, things 10 like that? 11 A. Yeah. I suppose they were protecting me, but 12 I did not read all the pages of that book. 13 Q. So just looking over my shoulder, if you will, 14 there seem to be a lot more pages than you ever read. 15 A. Uh_huh. 16 Q. Yes? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Who handed it to you to begin with or portions 19 of it, Mr. Hallock or Neva? 20 A. I think it was Mr. Hallock. But I remembered 21 it because I happened to know some of the pallbearers on 22 there. 23 Q. On the list that were in here, in the 24 notebook? 25 A. Yeah. 85 1 Q. And were those pallbearers __ 2 A. Some of them worked for him. 3 Q. And were they, in fact, the pallbearers at the 4 service? 5 A. Yes. And every one of them showed up. 6 Q. Do you know Father Ogg? 7 A. Oh, yeah. 8 Q. And how do you know him? 9 A. My mom speaking of him and going to church 10 with my parents when I did come back. But I went to 11 many of his services myself and met him. My mom 12 introduced me to him. 13 Q. When did she introduce you to him? 14 A. What? 15 Q. When. 16 A. Oh. She worked for the church there for a 17 while as a receptionist part time, and that's when I met 18 him. 19 Q. Was that when you were still living at home? 20 A. No. No, it wasn't. It was after I moved out. 21 Q. Do you know the year, time frame in which __ 22 A. He was here a few years, and I'm not sure of 23 the details, though, of the years, but I think up to the 24 last __ up till about their funeral, in fact, around 25 there. Right after that, he got transferred, I 86 1 believe. 2 Q. When did your mom work for the church as a 3 receptionist in Father Ogg's parish? 4 A. I don't believe she had worked for them for a 5 few years, though, maybe two or three years. 6 Q. For how long a period of time did she work for 7 the church? 8 A. Two years maybe, approximately. 9 Q. And did you ever have any private conversation 10 with Father Ogg? 11 A. No, I didn't. 12 Q. Are you a churchgoer now? 13 A. I do but I don't real steady, but I do go to 14 church and give the Catholic church money when I go. 15 Q. And when is the last time you have been to 16 church? 17 A. It was probably a few weeks ago, probably a 18 couple months. Now that I got to moving here and this 19 wintertime, cold weather coming, I haven't been doing 20 much with this cold weather coming around. 21 Q. Do you know whether your parents ever saw 22 Doctor __ excuse me __ Father Ogg for any counseling? 23 A. No, myself. 24 Q. You don't know one way or the other? 25 A. No. 87 1 Q. Do you know whether your parents ever had any 2 problems between them in their marriage? 3 A. I don't believe they did. They were always 4 friendly to each other. 5 Q. I'm sorry. What was the word you used, they 6 were always? 7 A. Friendly. 8 Q. Friendly? Thank you. Have you ever had 9 periods in your life in which you have been depressed? 10 A. No, I hadn't. No. 11 Q. Never seen a doctor at all for feeling low? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Have you had any illness at all that required 14 you to be hospitalized? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Do you have a family doctor? 17 A. No. In fact, I don't even have a regular 18 doctor I see. 19 Q. Do you know Dr. Patel? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Is that name familiar to you? 22 A. Just from since I have came back here, it was 23 told to me that he was his doctor was all. 24 Q. You never talked to him, I take it. 25 A. No. 88 1 Q. Has Deb at any time had any mental problems, 2 depression of any nature at all before her death? 3 A. I don't believe so. 4 Q. Not to your knowledge? 5 A. Not to my knowledge, no. I did go and get a 6 toe X_ray at the hospital, but they let me right back 7 out. 8 Q. You got a toe X_ray? 9 A. Yeah, from working. I broke a toe. They 10 X_rayed me and let me right back out on workmen's comp. 11 Q. Have you taken any prescription medications in 12 your life other than antibiotics maybe for a cold that 13 lasted too long or __ 14 A. For a cold? No. 15 Q. __ infection? 16 A. No. 17 Q. No prescription medication? 18 A. I had impetigo on my arm when I was pouring 19 concrete between my high school years. That was the 20 only other job I didn't tell you. Between my junior and 21 senior year in high school, I was pouring concrete, 22 building eight_foot forms, walls for basements. And 23 that's __ what was that question? 24 Q. I was just trying to find out if you had had 25 any prescription medications at all __ 89 1 A. Oh, yeah. I got a cut and infected by 2 concrete and I had to go to a doctor there. And that 3 was the only prescription I have got forever. 4 Q. Did you have any high school activities 5 outside of your academics in high school that you 6 engaged in? 7 A. In New Mexico, there was a Church of Christ 8 that they had a singles group, and we would go to the 9 Grand Canyon and tour a little. That was probably the 10 only activity I have done except with Al and __ 11 Q. Did you participate in any athletics? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Any musical or drama? 14 A. No. 15 Q. What was your grade point average in high 16 school? 17 A. I'm not real sure even. 18 Q. Was it a C or better? 19 A. C, yeah, or better, yeah, just a hair, 20 somewhere between C and B, not A: But I didn't flunk. 21 Made it through every year. 22 Q. Right. Did your dad like to park the cars in 23 the driveway in a certain way? 24 A. I'm not real sure. I think so, yeah, his 25 Cadillac in the garage. 90 1 Q. Always wanted the Cadillac in the garage? 2 A. Pretty much, yeah, if he could. 3 Q. Who in the family would organize family 4 get_togethers at, say, Christmas or Thanksgiving? 5 A. My mother. 6 Q. Usually as opposed to Neva or as opposed to 7 Peggy or as opposed to somebody else? 8 A. Yeah, my mother and my grandma. 9 Q. Flo? 10 A. Yeah. 11 Q. When is the last time you have seen Flo, by 12 the way? 13 A. Before the funeral or after? I have seen her 14 regularly after. 15 Q. Yeah, after the funeral. 16 A. I __ 17 MR. VICKERY: You mean before today? 18 MR. PREUSS: Yeah. 19 A. Before yesterday? I talked to her on the 20 phone once in a while, but it was probably a couple 21 weeks before that. I serviced her trailer out at 22 Keyhole. I went out and put a water pump on her trailer 23 and antifreezed her trailer up out there. I do talk to 24 her regularly and do her maintenance at her house, too, 25 except for snow shoveling. She has got a snow shoveler 91 1 that's shoveling her walks in winter. But whenever she 2 needs something done, I go clean it, her gutters out of 3 her house. I have done it both years and help her move 4 her boat back and forth to the lake and winterize her 5 trailer. 6 Q. You do that all for free. Right? 7 A. Yeah, just __ but coincidentally, that's my 8 business with her a lot of times. 9 Q. So she'll call you up and ask you or you'll 10 just go ahead and do it on your own? 11 A. She'll ask me to or I volunteer. 12 Q. Who besides Flo among your relatives do you 13 see regularly now, say, in the last couple years? 14 A. I don't. 15 Q. Mainly Flo then, right? 16 A. Yeah. 17 Q. She's your sort of family contact? 18 A. Yeah, she would be, too, yeah. 19 Q. Now, where were you when you were first 20 notified of your parents' death? 21 A. Setting in my apartment watching TV on the 22 sofa there by myself. 23 Q. Okay. That's when you were living on __ 24 A. Lowell Boulevard. 25 Q. __ Lowell and __ I can't remember the name of 92 1 the street. 2 A. 74th. 3 Q. 72nd? 74th? 4 A. Yeah, I believe it was. 5 Q. And tell me exactly what happened. 6 A. Four __ two officers and two females 7 unclothed __ I mean, plain clothed __ 8 Q. Out of uniform? 9 A. I mean to say plain clothes on. I'm sorry. 10 MR. VICKERY: That's okay. Gave us all 11 a good laugh. 12 A. Walked in and introduced themselves and showed 13 me their badges. And I noticed the two officers were __ 14 one was a sergeant, I thought. I was wondering if these 15 guys were telling me the truth. So I looked at their 16 badges and one was a sergeant, and the other three I 17 believe were just officers. And they stood right there 18 in front of my sofa and questioned me and informed me 19 and left. 20 Q. What did they tell you? 21 A. They told me my family __ they told me Deb 22 Schell, a Don Schell and Rita Schell and Alyssa Tobin 23 had been shot in the head and killed, period. 24 Q. Had you ever seen Alyssa? 25 A. Yeah. Yeah. I made it back, but __ let's 93 1 see. I made it back visiting, but they __ I don't know 2 when now it was. Well, doggone it, I guess not. I 3 was __ it was only a day if I did one afternoon. I 4 remember always seeing her __ I seen her __ they were 5 always sending me pictures, I suppose, is what was in my 6 head. They were constantly sending me pictures. No, I 7 didn't. 8 Q. And it says, and I'm reading from the police 9 report __ well, why don't I just let you take a look at 10 it. 11 A. I can read that? 12 Q. Sure. 13 A. I didn't know what was on it. They didn't say 14 nothing bad and left. 15 Q. I'll show you the report of 2_15_98, page 5. 16 And if you could read the first two paragraphs of that, 17 please. 18 A. I had camouflaged pants on over levis because 19 it was awful cold outside that night and I was working 20 on a vehicle outside, just pants. And I remember 21 sliding them off when they were standing there. In 22 fact, I said, "I'm sorry about these." I was using them 23 for coveralls and I slid them off, keep my pants clean 24 after I showered up that day from a workday. 25 The knife on the table I don't even recall, 94 1 but I did fish down there in the hills a lot. I 2 carried __ I did take a hunting knife that my parents 3 had given me when I was younger and I used it to clean 4 fish, too, with. 5 Q. Is that the knife they are talking about? 6 A. I imagine. I don't recall the knife. 7 Q. What are you chuckling about? 8 A. Apologized for the camouflaged clothing. I 9 just had some jeans on over my levis. I was working on 10 the neighbor girl's car outside and it was cold. And 11 they went over and questioned her after that. 12 Q. Okay. Are you through reading it, then, those 13 two paragraphs? 14 A. Yeah. I didn't notice that. I didn't even 15 know there was one there. 16 Q. Who was the neighborhood girl whose car you 17 were fixing? 18 A. Joyce something. I don't even know what her 19 last name is for sure. 20 Q. You don't remember her last name? 21 A. (Shook head.) 22 Q. Does she still live __ was she living in the 23 same apartment? 24 A. Yeah. They had an apartment there. So I 25 still had my own place, but I would go over and help her 95 1 work on her car. 2 Q. Did she live with some other girls? 3 A. Yeah. I think she had __ yeah, she has a son. 4 Q. She had a son? 5 A. Yeah, that was there. 6 Q. They mentioned here, they being the police 7 report here, mentions that you started talking about 8 your 401(k) financial plan. Is that consistent with 9 your recollection? 10 A. Yeah. That was right __ that was in the 11 process of rolling over a 401(k) and then starting a new 12 job right then after I got that 401(k) rolled over, and 13 then I was going to handle the paperwork on it and start 14 a job Monday. I think I was just starting to go back in 15 my head through what I had did there, for some reason, 16 thinking it was my fault or that I had caused it. But 17 the more I thought about it, the more I realized I 18 didn't have nothing to do with it. 19 Q. Do you know why you happened to be talking 20 about your 401(k) plan when the officers gave you that 21 news? 22 A. Briefing them on what I was doing the last 23 week or two. 24 Q. Where were you on that day and the day before? 25 A. Working on a vehicle in the parking lot of 96 1 that building. 2 Q. For a couple of days you had been working on 3 it? 4 A. Yeah. I ended up taking the battery down and 5 getting it tested to see if the battery was still good 6 and charged at a car store. 7 Q. So if there were an individual that said that 8 they might have seen you driving around the streets of 9 Gillette on the 13th, they would be mistaken. Right? 10 A. Oh, yeah, not for a couple weeks after that. 11 I didn't make it back after that for a few days, 12 probably a week after that, I was told, and I made it 13 back. 14 Q. You mean made it back here? 15 A. Yeah. 16 Q. When did you come to Gillette after being 17 notified here late in the evening of the 13th of 18 February, 1998? 19 A. I started packing my things, and it took me 20 about a week, I think, to get the first carload back. I 21 just brought one carload of clothes with me and I left 22 my furniture. 23 Q. Well, did you drive up here first and then go 24 back and pick up your stuff? 25 A. No, no. 97 1 Q. You just moved out right there? 2 A. Yeah. 3 Q. And that took you about a week? 4 A. Yeah. It was told __ it was suggested to me 5 that I was going to have to have about a year of 6 paperwork coming to take care of up here. And they were 7 about right. 8 Q. After you talked to the police, did you 9 contact anybody in your family? 10 A. No. Well, they all contact __ a lot them were 11 contacting me at that time on the phone over there. So 12 I did visit them a little bit, but __ 13 Q. Did you have a phone? 14 A. No. Down there, I did. 15 Q. In Denver. 16 A. Yeah. 17 Q. That's what I mean. 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. So you were available by phone? 20 A. Yeah. 21 Q. What was your phone number there? 22 A. Oh, boy. Two three __ I couldn't remember it, 23 actually. It was __ 7418 I think was the address, 24 Lowell Boulevard. 25 Q. Was it a 303 area code? 98 1 A. Yeah. 2 Q. 969_0600? 3 A. Yeah. That was it, yeah, yeah. 4 Q. That was your phone number? 5 A. Yeah. 6 Q. Okay. So, who in the family did you first 7 speak to after you had this conversation with the police 8 officers in Winchester? 9 A. Westminster? 10 Q. Westminster. Thank you. 11 A. Pardon me? Would you repeat that? 12 Q. Yeah. Who was the first member of family that 13 you spoke to about this news after the police talked to 14 you? 15 A. I believe I called my grandmother's. In fact, 16 I did call Flo. 17 Q. That evening? 18 A. Yeah. 19 Q. It was about midnight. 20 A. The first call I called was a friend of mine 21 named Tom Kindt, and I asked him __ all I know was __ 22 come to the conclusion that something had happened 23 here. And so I called a friend of mine, seen if he had 24 heard anything. And all he told me was, "I'm sorry," 25 and hung up the phone on me. So I was starting to get a 99 1 bit frustrated by now. 2 Q. Tom Kindt is a friend that lived in Gillette? 3 A. Yeah. 4 Q. Still around? 5 A. I think so. He knows my family and stopped by 6 and talked to them once in a great while. I don't think 7 he had lately, but he had visited them and visited my 8 sister because he thought my sister was cute, I think, 9 when he could. 10 Q. Okay. And so you got no information out of 11 Mr. Kindt. 12 A. No. 13 Q. Then who did you call? 14 A. The next day __ it was probably the next day I 15 finally called Flo, I believe. 16 Q. And tell me what was said in the conversation 17 between you and Flo. 18 A. They were real polite to me. They didn't put 19 me in more shock. She just said __ they just suggested 20 I grab some clothes and come back for a while and did, 21 so I did. 22 Q. Well, did you __ when the police officers 23 left, did you believe in your mind that your parents, 24 your sister and your niece were dead? 25 A. Yeah. 100 1 Q. So you believed what the police officers told 2 you. 3 A. Yeah. 4 Q. And then did you have any other conversations 5 with any other family members before you left Colorado 6 to come up here? 7 A. No, I don't believe I did. 8 Q. Again, can you tell me, then, how many days 9 before you got up here after you first spoke to the 10 police officers? 11 A. I would say a week, at least every day of a 12 week. 13 Q. So it took you a week to get all your stuff 14 together before you came up? 15 A. And tell the manager I was leaving and still 16 get my 401 check and transfer it. I still had mail 17 coming, and I knew it was supposed to show right about 18 that day and right in there, too. So I think I waited 19 and got my check. 20 Q. Then did you have the Corsica at that time? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. So you put your stuff in the Corsica? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And drove up here? 25 A. (Nodded head.) 101 1 Q. Did you get it all in the car or did you need 2 to have a trailer? 3 A. No. I left most of my furniture and I brought 4 my clothes. 5 Q. Did you leave it for good or to get another 6 time? 7 A. I just threw it in the dumpster. It was just 8 kind of used furniture. It wasn't necessarily worth 9 bringing or a big loss. 10 Q. So, all you brought was what you could get in 11 the car. 12 A. And I did make one trip back after that, so I 13 think I got two carloads full of lamps and clothes and 14 bathroom, toothbrushes, things. 15 Q. When did you go back for the second load? 16 A. Within two weeks, but I had completed all 17 that, two loads, probably within two weeks. 18 Q. And the first load was __ took about a week. 19 A. Yeah. 20 Q. Then did you stay with Flo during that time? 21 A. Yeah. The first night I got to town, I stayed 22 at the Holiday Inn. Then Flo politely asked me if I 23 wanted to stay there, and I did. 24 Q. And when was the service here in Gillette 25 relative to the time that you spoke to the police 102 1 officers? 2 A. Oh. I mean, that wasn't real long after that, 3 but a few, three, four weeks I think is all. 4 MR. VICKERY: Three or four weeks or 5 three or four days? 6 THE DEPONENT: I don't even know. I 7 don't know. I was pretty disoriented or even didn't 8 care about a lot of them details at that time. 9 Q. (BY MR. PREUSS) But you were up here for the 10 service. 11 A. Yes, closed_casket service and four caskets in 12 the aisle of the church. There was only three __ I 13 think the youngster was with my sister, so I guess there 14 was only three, but that was way too many to see up 15 here. Never seen something like that. 16 Q. After hearing about this terrible news, who 17 among your family members did you seek out or provided 18 you the most comfort? 19 A. He had some brothers and sisters that called 20 me and I kind of sympathized with them. So I just had a 21 polite discussion with them. But I have learned to 22 survive by myself and I felt no need to __ not that much 23 of a need to call other people. 24 Q. Have you ever seen a grievance counselor or 25 anybody else that helped you with this tragic news? 103 1 A. I haven't, sir, but it was suggested to me I 2 do, but I haven't because for lack of not wanting to 3 give them a hundred dollars a day. 4 Q. And how do you feel you have done with it 5 yourself? 6 A. Not bad but probably not perfect. If this 7 would have happened at a younger age, it probably would 8 have affected me worse. I have been away for a long 9 time. I have learned to survive alone. I have been 10 alone for a lot of years. It wasn't that big of a 11 change to me. But I didn't want to see it happen. 12 Q. What was the last? But? 13 A. But it was something I didn't want to see 14 happen. 15 Q. Who were your parents' best friends? 16 A. George and Betty Smith were good friends. My 17 mom had mentioned that she went to school with Betty. 18 Q. Any other friends as close as George and Betty 19 or just about? 20 A. Jerry Hannum. When I was real young, Jerry 21 Hannum used to __ we would go out and visit Jerry Hannum 22 at his farm. And I liked to stay with Jerry, too. 23 Jerry would keep me for the weekend. And I liked it. 24 But that was probably the only other person that they 25 let me stay with or something, too. 104 1 Q. Did you stay with George and Betty from time 2 to time? 3 A. No. Jerry kind of took me out to his horses 4 and he would let me ride his horses. 5 Q. How does Jerry spell his last name? 6 A. H_a_n_n_u_m, I think. 7 Q. Is he still alive? 8 A. No. 9 Q. When did he die? 10 A. When I was still in school years, in fact, of 11 an open heart surgery, I believe. It was told that to 12 me. And in fact, they had company at that time. 13 Richard Shober would be another one of their friends, 14 Richard Shober and __ 15 Q. How do you spell Mr. Shober's last name? 16 A. __ Rosemary. S_h_o_b_e_r, yeah. 17 Q. Is Richard still alive? 18 A. I think so. 19 Q. Living in the Gillette area? 20 A. I think. 21 Q. Any other friends that were particularly close 22 to your parents? 23 A. Just Richard and Rosemary Shober. I don't 24 know too many others of theirs. 25 (Deposition proceedings recessed 11:18 105 1 a.m. to 11:23 a.m.) 2 Q. (BY MR. PREUSS) Mr. Schell, you indicated 3 that __ withdraw that. Who between your parents was the 4 decision_maker on things that were family issues, your 5 dad or your mom? 6 A. I think they probably discussed it. I don't 7 know. 8 Q. Growing up, you didn't form an impression one 9 way or the other? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Who told you when to get back at night when 12 you went out in high school? 13 A. My father. 14 Q. And if you didn't get back on time, who did 15 you deal with, your mom or your dad? 16 A. With him, but the only time he punished me was 17 when I walked into his house and left his door open and 18 his keys in his door at night. So I did deserved it. 19 Q. He punched you? 20 A. No, punished. 21 Q. How did he punish you? 22 A. Grounded. I think they grounded me to the 23 house for a while at my nighttimes. 24 Q. So when he got up in the morning, he saw your 25 keys in the front door? 106 1 A. I was trying to sneak in late. 2 Q. Didn't do a very good job, did you? 3 A. No. That one didn't work. 4 Q. Do you know whether your mom went with your 5 dad whenever your dad had a doctor's appointment? 6 A. I think she did. 7 Q. What's your basis of thinking that? 8 A. When I __ when you say something about me 9 going to a doctor, I remember him going to eye doctors, 10 too, there. He couldn't see for a while, when he got 11 out, of one eye doctor there, so he needed help around 12 the house there. That was all I really recall of his 13 doctor visits. 14 Q. And when he went to that doctor, your mom went 15 with him? 16 A. Yeah, drove him back and got him around the 17 house and fed him for a while and got him home. 18 Q. Did something happen to his eyes or was he 19 just getting older and not seeing as well? 20 A. They had a growth on them, I believe, that 21 they were trying to cut off. 22 Q. Cataract? 23 A. Something like one but not a cataract. And 24 they failed, I believe, at it, and it came back on him. 25 Q. Did it affect his sight at all? 107 1 A. I think it was a little. 2 Q. Just on one eye? 3 A. Yeah. 4 Q. Were your parents closer to Debbie than they 5 were to you, from your point of view? 6 A. Oh, no. I don't think they were very biased. 7 They were __ probably would have done a lot for me. I 8 just didn't have to ask them as much as she did. And I 9 don't know that she asked them, but I just know she 10 would like to visit them more. 11 Q. More than you did. 12 A. Yeah. 13 Q. Did your dad ever have any problems sleeping 14 at night? 15 A. Not that I would know about. 16 Q. How about your sister, Deb? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Did your dad ever have any periods of 19 unemployment where he wasn't working for a while? 20 A. I don't believe __ I remember one time he was 21 changing jobs. He went from __ changed from NCRA and he 22 went to Tretolite, I believe, right before he found his 23 Occidental job. 24 Q. Way back when then. 25 A. Yeah. That was the only time I recall. 108 1 Q. Other than that, he worked constantly except 2 for when they might have taken a vacation? 3 A. That was, yeah, maybe just a week or two, and 4 then he had already found him work again. I don't think 5 he ever did draw unemployment. 6 Q. So other than that one episode, he was fully 7 employed __ 8 A. Yeah. 9 Q. __ and at work every day except when he might 10 have gone for a vacation. 11 A. Yeah. 12 Q. Have you ever heard of a Dr. Buchanan? 13 A. No, sir. 14 Q. Ever heard of a Dr. Bagnarello? 15 A. Yeah. 16 Q. What did you hear about him? 17 A. I just __ just one day I seen him walking down 18 the street or something. Someone pointed him out to me 19 that it was __ that he was here and I just remembered it 20 because I know it was brought up to me about doctors in 21 town here lately. But that was all, just seeing the 22 fellow on the street. 23 Q. Do you know whether your dad ever saw him for 24 depression or anxiety? 25 A. I have no idea. 109 1 Q. Have you ever heard of a Dr. Ray Leugers, 2 L_e_u_g_e_r_s? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Have you ever heard of a Piedmont 5 Psychological Practice in Sheridan? 6 A. No. I didn't know any of that till yesterday 7 either. 8 Q. When you were here at Flo's deposition, you 9 mean? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Have you ever been arrested at all, sir? 12 A. A DUI. 13 Q. When was that? 14 A. In Colorado, in fact, at Castle Rock, Douglas 15 County. DUAI. It was just short of a DUI. I didn't 16 lose my license, but they held me down there. 17 Q. You did or did not lose your license? 18 A. I didn't lose my license. 19 Q. Did you have to go to a school? 20 A. Yes. It was a really __ right at the level 21 there. Right in between there, yeah, of getting in 22 trouble or not, though. 23 Q. When did that occur? 24 A. '95, or __ yeah, must have been '95 or 25 earlier. 110 1 Q. That's the only time that you have been 2 arrested? 3 A. Yeah. 4 Q. Do you consume alcohol at this time? 5 A. I have just about totally quit. No. 6 Q. Do you drink no alcohol at this time? 7 A. Very, very seldom. If I do, I will have one 8 beer maybe a month with a meal. I have literally 9 stopped. 10 Q. Have you ever had an alcohol problem? 11 A. Just about when in Colorado, yeah. I was 12 drinking probably daily after work, driving home from 13 work on a hot day. 14 Q. So was that all the time you were down in 15 Colorado? 16 A. No, not necessarily. Well, no. 17 Q. No? Okay. So how much were you drinking a 18 day down in Colorado? 19 A. Oh, a quart a beer for the ride home from work 20 a lot of times. 21 Q. A quart? 22 A. Yeah. I am going to bite my tongue off here 23 one of these days. 24 Q. When you came back up here, did you __ 25 MR. GORMAN: Don't swallow it. 111 1 Q. (BY MR. PREUSS) When you came back up here, 2 did you continue to drink a quart of beer a day? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Is that when you cut down? 5 A. No. Well, it was before then, but I had just 6 halted it almost when I came up here. 7 Q. Had you had anything to drink on the night 8 that the police stopped by? 9 A. No. Just myself sitting there watching TV. 10 And they walked right in. And that was what they seen, 11 I guess. I don't have a violent past by any means, 12 nowhere. I hate to see them sound like I'm violent in 13 that report there. That's almost what it sounds like. 14 Q. You mean the police report that you read? 15 A. Yeah. 16 Q. You're not a guy that gets into fights is what 17 you're saying. 18 A. No. 19 Q. When is the last time you spoke to your mom 20 before her death? 21 A. I think it was that weekend before that one. 22 Q. So, I think we can agree among ourselves that 23 the time that you were seen was late Friday night. So 24 it would have been the previous weekend? 25 A. Yeah, yeah. 112 1 Q. When is the last time you spoke to your dad? 2 A. That night __ or I mean, after her __ not that 3 night but after my mom, after I spoke to my mom. 4 Q. Same conversation? 5 A. Yeah. And he did __ it was pretty short and 6 simple, just a hi, things aren't bad. They knew I had 7 my own retirement going down there and a job to go to 8 Monday, I believe. 9 Q. And how did your dad sound to you on the 10 phone? 11 A. He didn't sound like that abnormal to me. 12 Q. Sounded normal to you? 13 A. Yeah. 14 Q. And your mom sounded normal? 15 A. Yeah. He just talked a hair low like he 16 was __ almost like he was __ like someone was there or 17 something and he didn't want them to hear, kind of 18 funny. But it didn't seem like a trouble to me at that 19 time. 20 Q. Prior to that conversation with him, when is 21 the last time you spoke to him? 22 A. Two weeks before that. And that was normal, 23 though. 24 Q. So the only difference __ the difference 25 wasn't in what he said. It was just that his voice was 113 1 lower when he spoke to you? 2 A. Kind of a weak voice just a little bit the 3 more I thought about that, but I didn't realize it 4 was __ it was so little of a change, I didn't realize it 5 until later on when I really thought about it. 6 Q. You mean after you knew that your parents were 7 dead __ 8 A. Yeah. 9 Q. __ and then you started to think back on the 10 conversation? 11 A. Yeah. It wasn't noticeable. It was just kind 12 of soft. 13 Q. You didn't ask him about it or ask your mom 14 about it? 15 A. No, I didn't. 16 Q. It was just something you stored in your mind 17 and thought about it later? 18 A. Yeah. 19 Q. And wondered if it meant something? 20 A. Yeah. 21 Q. When you thought back on it, do you think 22 maybe he was feeling a little depressed when he talked 23 to you? 24 A. Now I can see where he might have been after 25 that conversation. 114 1 Q. Normally when he spoke to you, he had a full, 2 strong voice? 3 A. Yeah. I didn't know they were buying houses 4 and all this stuff either. They didn't tell me any of 5 that stuff. I mean, trying to sell the house to his 6 foreman I found out later when I got back here. 7 Q. That your mom was __ 8 A. Yeah. 9 Q. __ selling a house? What did you learn about 10 that? 11 A. That they had a contract signed and then he __ 12 it got changed or he backed out on it and didn't sign or 13 something. I don't think it was any real big deal 14 necessarily either to anyone. But I see now they had a 15 lot going on I didn't know about. 16 Q. Did anybody tell you that the deal that fell 17 through was __ caused a problem between your mom and 18 your dad? 19 A. No. No one said anybody was upset or mad, 20 no. But they didn't tell me about their personal lives, 21 necessarily. 22 Q. They didn't share those things with you? 23 A. I did not want to know or ask. 24 Q. Did you ask Joe Hallock to be your attorney, 25 or how did that happen? 115 1 A. He was already waiting for me. And I was 2 pointed in that one direction and went down there one 3 day, and he already knew what was going on pretty good. 4 Q. Did somebody tell you that he was your 5 attorney? 6 A. They suggested to me I use him. 7 Q. "They" being who? 8 A. Flo. 9 Q. Would you say your mom was closer to Peggy or 10 to Neva? 11 A. Oh, I think she is unbiased in her daughters. 12 Q. No, no. 13 A. Loves them all. 14 Q. I'm sorry if I said Flo. I meant, was Rita 15 closer to Peggy or to Neva, or was there no difference 16 as far as you could tell? 17 A. Probably no difference, again, there. 18 Q. Nothing you could see. 19 A. No. 20 Q. Have you ever signed any written statement at 21 all about anything surrounding your parents' death? 22 A. Mr. Joe Hallock came up to me one day with a 23 paper about that I was __ something about me not using 24 different attorneys to sue Paxil. And I signed it. 25 Q. What did this paper say? 116 1 A. And I wonder if that's going to be a problem 2 now. That I wasn't to __ something about me not using 3 other attorneys than him. And I don't know if that's 4 going to be a problem now or not for real sure. But he 5 came up to me with a paper one day that said I was not 6 to use any other firm or something than them. 7 Q. Did you keep a copy of that? 8 A. No, I didn't. 9 Q. Did he give you a copy? 10 A. No. 11 Q. And your understanding is that he asked you to 12 sign something that would indicate if you wanted to sue 13 somebody, that you had to use him as your lawyer? 14 A. Yeah. Something to that effect, yeah. 15 Q. Anything else that you signed about 16 circumstances surrounding the death of your parents? 17 A. No. That were the only unique paper that I 18 noticed that come up. And that struck me funny that 19 came up about them. But what the heck am I supposed to 20 tell a guy? I mean, now since, I got __ we went on and, 21 you know, looked up someone different. But I think Flo 22 and Neva and them found these guys. It wasn't me. I'm 23 just here. I don't have much to do with this. I really 24 didn't, burying them either. It was already done. It 25 was all handled, between that book, them guys getting 117 1 that book. They handled it. 2 Q. So what you're saying, you would just as soon 3 that you didn't have to come here and answer all my 4 questions? 5 A. That ain't a problem. No, that ain't a 6 problem with me. But they handled most of the paperwork 7 and the calls that needed done when Peg was in town. 8 She did come up to town right away and for that reason, 9 just to help us with calls. I didn't do much 10 arranging. Probably cared less about it than they did 11 at that time. 12 MR. PREUSS: Okay. Why don't you give 13 me a minute. I may be done. 14 (Deposition proceedings recessed 11:42 15 a.m. to 11:44 a.m.) 16 MR. PREUSS: I have no further 17 questions. 18 EXAMINATION 19 BY MR. VICKERY: 20 Q. Mike, prior to your parents' death, when was 21 the last time you were in Gillette? 22 A. At Christmas. In fact, I was the only one 23 that showed up at Christmas with me and my parents. 24 Q. Christmas '97? 25 A. Yeah. 118 1 MR. VICKERY: All right. I don't have 2 any other questions. 3 MR. PREUSS: We're done. Thank you, 4 sir. 5 (Deposition proceedings concluded 11:45 6 a.m., December 7, 2000.) 7 (The signature of the deponent hereto 8 was waived.) 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 119 1 C E R T I F I C A T E 2 3 I, John E. Walz, a Registered Merit Reporter 4 and a Notary Public of the State of Wyoming, do hereby 5 certify that Michael Schell was by me first duly sworn 6 to testify to the truth, the whole truth, and nothing 7 but the truth; 8 That the foregoing transcript, consisting of 9 118 typewritten pages, is a true record of the testimony 10 given by the said deponent, together with all other 11 proceedings herein contained. 12 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my 13 hand and affixed my notarial seal this 3rd day of 14 January 2001. 15 16 17 _________________________________ 18 JOHN E. WALZ Registered Merit Reporter 19 20 21 22 23 24 My commission expires February 3, 2002. 25